Sikhs v Muslims: why the debate on grooming isn’t about the women themselves


by Sunny Hundal    
4:54 pm - September 12th 2013

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In January this year around 40 Sikhs attacked and vandalised a restaurant in Leicester, alleging that a young Sikh girl had been raped in a room above the restaurant. The police denied rumours and the allegations, and some of the attackers were prosecuted. But it later emerged that a group of men had used that room to exploit a vulnerable teenager for sex, repeatedly.

The Leicester case was a key part of a BBC1 report last Monday that British Sikh girls were being groomed for sex by gangs of men, primarily of Muslim background. The programme was horrifying and saddening to watch. Some of the girls, just barely teenagers, had been tricked by men pretending to be Sikh and then groomed until they were raped. In some cases they were drugged, photographed naked and then blackmailed into rape and abuse. It has caused a furore amongst British Sikhs and a worryingly large number say on public forums that they’re willing to take the law into their own hands to protect Sikh women, as the police are seen as ineffectual.

Nothing strains Hindu-Sikh-Muslim relations like seeing women of their religion being preyed on by men of other religions. Tensions between British Sikhs and Muslims are now at a new low, having come close to boiling point in several instances, most notably in Luton in late May. [Rumours quickly spread via forums like this: 'Sikh Girl Dragged Into Wooded Area And Raped By Paki' - which was never confirmed.]

Right now even a small incident could quickly escalate into a full-scale riot involving hundreds of Sikh and Muslim men.

You can round up a 100 Sikhs in an hour if they’re told that a Sikh woman was abused by a Muslim man, but you won’t get even 10 if they’re told a Sikh man had abused her. The same goes for Muslims. Across the Sikh, Muslim and Hindu communities, men care more about the involvement of men of other religions than simply tackling violence against women. And this is the real tragedy because, even though they claim to be protecting women, the real agenda is plain old bigotry.

After the husband and mother-in-law of Sarbjit Kaur Athwal were found guilty of murder, her brother Jagdeesh Singh pointed out that Sikhs would rather not talk about social problems. In the communal riots that followed the Partition of India and Pakistan in 1947, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus raped women of other religions to exact ‘revenge’ because they think the ‘honour’ of a community is linked to the purity of women. The same attitudes manifest now in different ways.

Some uncomfortable facts
The report by Muslim Women’s Network this week, and by BBC1 last week, had a painfully obvious point to make: it isn’t just white and Sikh girls who are being failed by the system – Muslim girls face similar problems of grooming and sexual abuse.

And there’s another uncomfortable point – most abuse of women is committed by men known to them and of the same background. This is conveniently ignored by the white, Sikh and Muslim men who want men of other communities to point fingers at. Where are the Sikh vigilante gangs against honour crimes, domestic violence and rape perpetrated by Sikh men against Sikh women? These gangs don’t exist.

Why were the abused girls in the BBC1 report further stigmatised by their families and other Sikhs? One victim was warned by her mother not to tell anyone; another was banished to the United States to recover; the man from Sikh Awareness Society carelessly said: “We know that a girl who is tarnished with this kind of thing would never get married anyway.”

The focus on the religion of abusers is another way to say ‘rape by a Muslim man is worse than rape by a Sikh man‘ – which only makes the girl feel worse than she already does. Would it be better if she was raped by a Sikh or a white man?

Long, turbulent history
Sikhs and Muslims have a particularly tense history, some of it going back to when Sikhism was born in the 1500s. The ninth and tenth Sikh Gurus (the spiritual leaders and teachers) were pursued and murdered by Mughal emperors who wanted Sikhs to convert to Islam en-masse. Not all Mughal emperors were as tyrannical as Aurangzeb of course, but the Sikh psyche became wary of Muslims early on even as the Gurus relentlessly preached harmony and urged their followers to learn from Islam too.

The tension inevitably carried over to the UK. During the 80s and 90s, gangs such as the Chalvey Boys (mostly Muslim, based in Slough) and Shere Panjab (mostly Sikhs, based around Southall) clashed frequently, some times because of fights over inter-religious relationships. At universities mixed Sikh-Muslim couples kept their relationships quiet for fear of getting targeted by either gangs.

One particularly sore point was a leaflet from an extremist Muslim group (likely al-Muhajiroun) in Luton calling on Muslims to seduce Sikh girls into Islam. It became infamous even though it has never been reproduced since and was immediately condemned by Muslims imams then.

This urban myth about forced conversions has been aired in the press frequently by Sikh and Hindu groups. A couple of years ago the BBC even looked into allegations of forced conversions made by the Sikh Awareness Society and Hindu Forum , and asked them for evidence, but the groups couldn’t produce any.

So the allegations of grooming have to seen through this context; the past paranoia of many Sikhs feeds into the current debate even though the paedophiles aren’t even vaguely religious. It’s enough for some them that those being highlighted by the media (the same media Sikhs frequently accuse of sensationalism!) are Muslim.

What about the victims themselves?
There is another common thread among all the recent reports of grooming, whether of white, Sikh or Muslim girls: they have been failed by the police and social services. I’ve been writing on this topic for eight years now, and in every controversy this point crops up. In the the BBC1 report, the police only acted after the Sikh Awareness Society put together a dossier of evidence for them – fuelling sentiments with Sikhs that they have to take the law into their own hands.

We need a proper inquiry into why young girls across the country are being failed if they face sexual abuse even when the telltale signs are there. This should be a key concern among campaigners.

Secondly, there is now a danger that self-appointed ‘community leaders’ and vigilante gangs start acting as social workers rather than trained professionals. Furthermore, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu commentators say there should be ‘sensitivity’ when allegations emerge because the family unit should not be ‘ripped apart’. This is ridiculous and only makes social workers more worried about allegations of racism than focusing on protecting victims.

Thirdly, the biggest problem is the stigma and shame that Asians themselves promote in such cases. Making the issue about religion and race, mostly because people have axes to grind, increases the shame and makes girls feel worse. So does the unwillingness to talk about sexual abuse within Asian families or by religious preachers. When Gurpreet Bhatti wrote Behzti – many Sikh men were more interested in shouting her down than asking whether any women had indeed been raped at a Gurdwara (yes, they had).

We’re seeing people using the problem of grooming and sexual abuse to push their own agenda – like the English Defence League have been long doing. None of it is about helping the victims of abuse now or in the future.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Story Filed Under: a) Section ,Equality ,Feminism

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Reader comments


Unfortunately the author takes every opportunity to muddy the waters with spurious arguments whenever Islam is involved while happily taking potshots at other communities knowing he wont have any suicide bombers after him or fatwas declared against him from Hindus/Sikhs/Christians.

Ask anyone from Burma to Birmingham about the followers of the religion of peace and there views will be remarkably similar and remarkably negative. All cultures interfacing
with Islam are protective of their women knowing the predatory habits of Muslim men.

Muslims have been happily raping and enslaving ‘infidel’ women ever since Mohammed their ‘prophet’ began attacking caravans and keeping the women captured for his own use and for his followers.

Whats really sad is this new ‘unholy’ alliance between Hundal, the self-styled ‘liberal left’ and the distinctly unliberal and medieval belief of Islam and it’s Sharia law.

Sunny remind us what the prophet said about apostates – no? He said “Kill them”.

So, grooming gangs target Sikh girls, some people actually do something about it, and you attack them.

Coming next – because some white women are abused by white families, the white victims of grooming gangs should not be talked about.

Remember, the most important thing is to attack anyone who raises the issue of grooming gangs who happen to be Muslim. It must never be talked about, and most of all, we must never question why there is a propensity for some Muslim men to commit this crime.

This really is an appalling response that shows the utterly inane failure of some parts of the Left.

Steve,

These men also raped Muslim girls from their own background. You’re not an expert on Islam, but it does not take an expert to know what Islam’s stance is on plying young girls with alcohol and drugs. Lastly, a bit of balance would not go amiss, most convicted sex offenders in this country are white I’m afraid and there are white Catholic priests in this country who commit awful abuses against children and the media never focus on their race and whether their beliefs contributed to their crimes against children. And lastly, this isn’t about left vs right. If you cared about the victims you wouldn’t exploit their ordeal to further your own agenda.

Please for the last time..

Its british cultural problem.. young women here are not being protected properly and thugs for all colors get to exploit them…

Steve,
You are aware though that in July 2013,the Lancashire police confirmed that a further five allegations of sexual assault had been made against Stuart Hall, including the alleged rape of a 12-year-old girl. He also invited girls on false pretexts (of training them) and then went on to sexually abuse them.
The report investigating Jimmy Savile stated “within the recorded crimes there are 126 indecent acts and 34 rape / penetration offences.” Alleged offences took place at 13 hospitals as well as on BBC premises.The Metropolitan Police described the child abuse ” being on an unprecedented scale ” and the described number of victims as “staggering.”
No “predatory habits” here then -as long as they are not Muslim. The victims of abuse need support not to be used further by different factions for self propelling agendas.

Caal ,
I’ve read the Quran and hadiths many times – and this is why I have a negative view of Islam. Ref Muslim women being raped by muslim men, women are the real victims of Islam.

I noticed you sidestepped the points I raised about Islam.
Shall we see what his own wife Aisha the 6 year old bride quoted of him ?

Mohammed said “Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).” Bukhari Vol. 1, #490

Tells you everything about this medieval belief

“This is conveniently ignored by the white, Sikh and Muslim men who want men of other communities to point fingers at.”

Is it just men who point the fingers? I doubt it.

Attack the people who raise the issue. It really is pathetic.

Sunny,

I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking – whenever stories like this come up – not another gang of muslim lads. Quite often from the Pakistani community. And no surprise that people think religion is behind it.

Something is going on, but given that improper relationships are highly frowned upon both religiously and culturally, and handling alcohol and drugs are basically forbidden by the religion, I think we also need to look at the failure of the Pakistani community – the lack of morality that is being passed onto the vile men that abuse these girls. Given the difference in cultures, I think the older generation failed to instil a true sense of respect towards others, as they really lacked an appreciation of the difference between mainstream Western society and their own backwater village-derived mores.

In fact, I would say the men that do this disrespect their own families and community as well as the girls they abuse.

I reckon if you analysed the lives of the guys involved, they’re not actually that pious and they get their kicks from the power they wield over others.

Now – as far as it comes to other communities – no wonder people are upset. The day we hear about this particular kind of abuse (not loners but gangs of men) coming from all communities, the Pakistani/Muslim community will get most of the attention.

There is a correlation with the guys being from muslim backgrounds, but we need to look deeper into the fact that the guys doing this are thuggish chavs.

Sunny’s piece should be read and digested by all those naive Guardianistas who think multiculturalism brings only benefits to the UK. A multicultural society is a contradiction in terms. There have been successful multiracial societies, but everyone in them must subscribe to the basics of the dominant culture, which in the UK include the rule of law and female emanicipation.

11. Let's not kid ourselves

Not Muslim but Mirpuri Pakistanis who happen to be Muslims.

How many of Indian, Arab, Bangladeshi, Turkish, African origin Muslims have been part of these grooming gangs?

“I’ve read the Quran and hadiths many times – and this is why I have a negative view of Islam.”

No you haven’t, no you haven’t. It’s a skill of mine to spot arseholes who claim to have read something they haven’t. Because when quoting something they claim to have read, they get a quote for wiki. Find me that donkey quote in the Quran and I’ll shag one.

Read it you anus. Realise it’s a bit dull, repetitive and paranoid, but ultimately, it’s just a badly subbed self-help book.

I’ll tune in next week to hear you tell us all about Ulysses

by the way, this headline is wrong. Its not women, it is girls who are being groomed. Children.

14. Just visiting

Kismet

Hey calm down and lay off the as hominens.

If you’ve read the Quran then what do you think of the verses that are often used by Muslim that say it’s OK to beat you’d wife, that a women’s testimony is half that of a man’s, that Apostates should be killed, that non-believers are 2nd class citizens and so.
The verses are there, so would welcome your view.

I have a problem with this article just not because the writer is Sikh or I am a Sikh but because how liberal writer irrespective of religion go on defending Muslims/Muslim gangs/anything Islamic, whatever the charge against them is.
Secondly few days after airing of BBC1 documentary Muslim Women’s Network reported that more Muslim women are threatened by grooming but they did not said by whom. That was just propaganda because everyone in news media id afraid to speak out against Muslims/Islam. I don’t know where Sunny Hundal lives but he is too quick to ignore the predator Muslim men. I think Mr Sunny Hundal don’t know about Muslim men and what they talk about when they are in private.
Liberal writer should stop seeing the world through pro Muslim glasses.

5 and 8 well said,

11′ it’s no the race of the Muslims, as there have been white Muslims who’ve been involved in theses sort of things

As usual this pathetic writer tries to muddy the waters instead of dealing with the facts of the TV programme. It proved that men of a Pakistani background disguised themselves as Sikhs to garner trust with very young girls in order to drug them or coerce them into sexual acts. FACTS Hundal you apologist. You have no idea or are choosing to ignore what work the SAS do. Of the 37 cases they are working on, it includes a handful where a form of abuse is from within the community and they are dealt with in the same way.

The girl sent to California has not been ‘banished’ but released to flourish and recover without fear of bumping into the perpetrators and was happy you fool.

A few facts for the apologist Hundal. The vast majority of street grooming gangs are Muslim. Of these the majority are Pakistani. The overwhelming majority of their victims are non Muslims. The pattern is clear, girls are targeted based on their background, which add a further insidious layer of ‘race’ to an already sick crime.

Further, another Muslim organisation, like the already discredited tell mama, comes out to tell us that’s muslim girls are also abused by the same, firstly there is not a shred of evidence, yet Hundal includes it as gospel, and secondly so what? What does this have to go with the issue at hand.

This ‘writer’ is so afraid of offending or going against the Islamic liberal left, and busy trying to get approval, like a child, from the likes of medhi hassan, that he ignores the needs of the next lot of children to be abused.

The proof and evidence has been provided by the bbc, the SAS which is not a vigilante group, but provides counselling, also have it, but Hundals never let the facts get in the way of a poor argument.

18. Paul peter Smith

I wonder if the title of the OP is s sick joke or if Sunny was just unaware of the irony before demonstrating exactly why this debate is never about the victims. Apologists, political opportunists and plain old morons spout crap like this article – grooming gangs sometimes prey on their own communities and a couple of them are not Pakistani muslim so that makes it ok?

Peter Paul Smith,

This is the modus operandi of Hundal. ‘Oh look over there, It might have happened there too’ He lacks the wit and intelligence to actually discuss the matter that was brought to our attention but rather decides to denigrate the hard work of people trying to help the victims and pontificates on their methods, without actually providing evidence.

I may be cynical, but until this issue was raised regarding the Sikh children, there was not a murmur about the apparent grooming of Muslim girls, maybe the Muslim women’s organisation would like to offer actual stats, as their word had been taken to be fact.

The ‘writer’ (I’m glad he writes, hear him speak and you’d think the articles must be ghost written), has a rabid need to ensure his political slant overrides the discussion, and actual problem of sexual street grooming gangs which are overwhelmingly of Pakistani background.

20. Colin Butterworth

Muslims don’t rape girls, men do as GLC might say.

One export from the Old Country we definitely do not need is pogroms. Thanks India. We even have zionist backed whites at it now. Playing into a feudal system of caste and religious differences for political gain. Talk about blow back. But there is something to be said for the idea that sexual offences against girls are still not taken seriously by the UK authorities which gives the self promoting vigilantes an excuse to cause trouble posing as concern. In fact often the authorities are complicit. But let us face it if these vulnerable girls were not being raped by Muslims they would be being raped by Sikhs or whites or somebody else. The Sikhs should be worrying about why their community is producing girls vulnerable to this sort of thing. Could it be their own in built misogyny?

Thanks Sunny, that was an interesting piece (for all the frothing nonsense in the comments afterwards).

Nothing strains Hindu-Sikh-Muslim relations like seeing women of their religion being preyed on by men of other religions.

It’s the classic point of inter-communal tension, regardless of the communities involved. Look at South Africa’s laws against inter-marriage, and the swart-gevaar (there’s also a good book ‘Black Peril and White Virtue’ about Southern Rhodesia), or anti-miscengenation laws in the US.

Fear of another community is almost always expressed as fear for the women of ones’ own community. Look at Psalm 22: “Deliver my soul from the sword, my darling from the power of the dog”.

22. Paul Peter Smith

@TimJ
Most of the frothing nonsense was in the OP, interesting choice of psalm considering the subject of the article was basically reasons why we can ignore the problem. How about this,
” O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.” also Psalm 22. Seems more apt from the point of view of the victims.
Apologies for resorting to BuyBull quotes everyone but TimJ started it.

People are not stupid.

Despite the (worryingly) constant attempts of liberal/lefty commentators to shift the focus, most normal peeps can see to the heart of the grooming issue:

Islamic culture promotes the view that unbelievers are not equal to believers, and therefore merit ill treatment. This view is in the core DNA of Islamic culture, and grooming by Muslim men of non-Muslim girls for sexual exploitation is just another confirmation of that fact (among many) in the public mind.

Colin Butterworth, doubt that’s your name in any case. You continue where the writer finished. Blame the girls, blame their community, blame people who react to sick crimes, but ignore the overwhelming evidence, that has been diluted, that Street grooming is mainly a Pakistani crime. Their background and religion is only important in that their victims are almost exclusively different.

They live in areas with other Pakistanis and manage to miss out all the girls there?? Laughable that anyone would think there is not. Bigger issue here, unless of course you are apologists for paedophile’s.

It’s not about religion per se, it’s to do with patriarchy. Patriarchy transcends religion and cultures. Naturally, those white supremacists and self-styled nationalists don’t want to hear that because it smashes their feebly-constructed ‘grooming is unique to Islam’ argument to smithereens and they’re left spluttering and grasping at straws.

25 ~ Your pathetic attempt is not worth responding to the actual content and it appears the tides have shifted, people are seeing beyond such tactics now and no longer have to respond.

Patriarchy. . . yea mate.

White supremacists & nationals..LOL..surprised you never threw ukip in there..

This article is a complete load of shit, the author is a Numpty if he does not see what is happening.

What the world should do in the eyes if the author is to sit back and pull down their pants and key the Muslims in.

What a load of shit. When will the people of the wotld be applauded for actually standing up to this dirty Muslim race. Probably ever if people like Hundal are about.

It would be different if someone near to him was groomed and raped.

WHAT A KNOB

Whether grooming is specific to one nationality/culture (I do doubt it), this has been happening in the UK and, it appears, over a long period of time and when the authorities have been made aware of it. Perhaps there is something about our own culture that has allowed it to continue.

Some of the critical comments here are hilarious.

TimJ – fair point.

30. Robin Levett

@Steve #1:

Ask anyone from Burma to Birmingham about the followers of the religion of peace

Burma? The Burma where they have Buddhist terrorists (I know, it sounds like an oxymoron, but it isn’t) that conduct pogroms against Muslims at the drop of a hat? That Burma? How well-informed are you?

Whether grooming is specific to one nationality/culture (I do doubt it), this has been happening in the UK and, it appears, over a long period of time and when the authorities have been made aware of it. Perhaps there is something about our own culture that has allowed it to continue.

While the obvious kick back to this point will be “YEAH, BLOODY POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, THAT’S WHAT HAS ALLOWED IT TO CONTINUE!!!” It’s worth pointing out in advance that we don’t just lock people up without a trial because a women says that someone groomed and raped her, there is a trial where the prosecution has to prove guilt, with whatever physical evidence they can produce and as much reliable witness testimony as possible. Thanks in part to the ‘reliable’ part of ‘reliable witness’ a lot of victims unfortunately get disregarded because either the police or CPS doesn’t think they would get a ‘win’, frequently based on a quick class-based assessment of the girl in question. A jury is likely to believe a group of working-class girls with similar stories of grooming and rape however, which might have a lot to do with why when these cases reach a court room there is a good tally of victims for the police to call upon.

Imams promote grooming rings’, Muslim leader claims

The Oxford grooming ring was promoted by imams who encourage followers to think white women deserve to be “punished”, an Islamic leader has claimed.

Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, said race and religion were inextricably linked to the recent spate of grooming rings in which Muslim men have targeted under-age white girls.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html

And this is the real tragedy because, even though they claim to be protecting women, the real agenda is plain old bigotry.

It might be thought, by a naive onlooker, that the real agenda was protecting vulnerable members of a community from the predations of (evidently) hostile outsiders. But no, it turns out it’s all bigotry.

(Presumably, extending the same logic, when one seeks to protect one’s own family, the real agenda is also bigotry, and the occasion merely provides a convenient excuse for the exercising of hatreds. A noble thought, perhaps, but probably not one to share with the wife.)

Instead of getting annoyed and making unreasonable, — and doubtless ineffectual — demands that something be done about the rape and abuse of Sikh girls by Muslim gangs, perhaps Sikhs could organise protests against themselves, in recognition of the fact that in caring for the welfare of members of their own community, they have committed the liberal sin of being nasty bigoted racists.

34. Paul peter Smith

@30 Robin Levett
This would be the Buddist terrorist struggling against (amongst other things) Muslim attempts to eradicate their religion and culture. An on going process thats been happening for Centuries. The Buddhist’s are losing by the way, I think that might have been Steve’s point.

At universities mixed Sikh-Muslim couples kept their relationships quiet for fear of getting targeted by either gangs.

And where were UAF and other anti-fascists? Nowhere I guess, as it’s not so easy to demonise non-white idiots.
Sounds like just a symptom of multiculturalism to me. There’s bound to be some of this kind of thing.

Particularly when the culture is kept ”traditional” like back in the Subcontinent. And new young adult immigrants will surely add to it and keep that going.
When you hear that there is major drug abuse problems in Indian Punjab, then the young men from there who come to Britain will surely be suffering from the effects of that too. And the macho misogynist culture that is the norm in India. I heard Indian women on the radio yesterday that being groped and harassed by men in public is just part of everyday city life. No one in England writing about such things is going to change any of this.

@26

“25 ~ Your pathetic attempt is not worth responding to the actual content and it appears the tides have shifted, people are seeing beyond such tactics now and no longer have to respond.

Patriarchy. . . yea mate.

White supremacists & nationals..LOL..surprised you never threw ukip in there..”

Ah, nothing like a bit of right-wing victimhood, eh? I’m only surprised you didn’t resort to the clichéd “political correctness gone mad”. But you don’t really have a point. You clearly don’t understand the role patriarchy or male chauvinism in any of this. The reason you vomit this stuff is because you don’t have a point to make beyond the usual “It’s the Muslims wot are doing this”.

buddyhell = blah blah blah blah.

If one takes note of statistics and whats actually going on they are a “white supremacist” “nationalist” “racist” and oh yea its the “patriarchy” and you are of course “right wing”

You sad, sad, sad bastard. One would have thought any human would have come up with something better in life than to divert attention and troll such an issue.

Does Dr Taj Hargey have a point? Tell him he does not understand then call him a supremacist…

Sunny no body is denying most abuse occurs within one’s own community whichever community that happens to be. That is the normal pattern of abusers, they usually target a vulnerable individual they happen to know, hence it should come as no surprise to anyone that most abusers are from same community. And ofcourse most of us agree whole heartedly that parents of children should be made aware of tell tale signs of abuse and how to avoid placing a child in a vulnerable situation. I have only had the benefit of listening to one ‘Awareness session’ by SAS and it did not focus upon the faith of possible perpetrators but homed in on the key points to be aware of & how to spot tell tale signs of abuse, I see that as educative and not scaremongering or hate preaching or anything of the sort.

Sunny just like your article on ‘Woman Dishonoured’, I agree with almost all the points you have mentioned in this piece. I just feel we may be in danger of throwing out the ‘baby with the bath water’, in so much as your criticism of SAS itself is a little harsh. Like you say they aren’t perhaps professionally trained or equipped like we would want them to be in an ideal world. But u imply that their motivation is entirely driven by anti-muslim sentiments rather than a concern 4 the victims of this crime. That point may well be debatable but all in all they do not wish to see vulnerable youngsters led away from path of Sikhi to be exploited by abusers 4 sexual gratification. Their ‘Awareness Sessions’ are about preventing and avoiding abuse & equipping parents with knowledge how to spot tell tale signs of it, which are the same no matter what faith the perpetrator comes from. Well, which other social organisation is going in to houses of worship to do that? The SAS are not an organisation like al-majhroun (now defunct) which directly incited religious hatred. For a Sikh to incite religious hatred would be against the tenants of Sikhi hence there is no place 4 any such organisation within Gurdwara’s. Please do not demean the sangat as if they are sheep ready to follow anyone, they come from all spheres of society many of who are educated and informed individuals who can distinguish between prejudicial scaremongering designed to foster resentment and proper awareness of a problem that exists outside peoples doorstep and as you say it also exists inside some families doorsteps, which is equally condemnable.

Hang on, I’m struggling to see where Sunny has defended Islam or ignored Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs? Can someone pinpoint where in the article he does either of those things?

The problem isn’t Sunny. It’s people (a) desperately trying to pin child grooming solely on Muslim men and (b) trying to turn this into a race/religion issue by implying these men only target girls outside their race/religion.

Clearly, neither allegation is true. And those who keep pushing those ideas are doing a great disservice to the girls who are being abused and ignored because people are more interested in stirring up tensions or settling old scores.

Asian girls (non-Muslim AND Muslim) are being sexually abused. Stop fighting amongst yourselves and think of them for a change.

I’ve made a few posts about this article on Sunny’s Facebook page, now i’m going to keep in simple, if your a parent (as i am) educate your damn selves, stop listening to the media and their constant crap about how all groomer’s are from a particular background, that’s like the Americans saying all terrorists are from a Muslim background, which considering the majority of terrorist act committed in the US are by White Christians is a bit rich, but i digress, I’ve been to a few SAS lectures and they didn’t point at any religion, just the signs and what to watch out for, and tactics used by groomers.

As a whole, the Asian community needs to wake up a little and accept that issues like this exist and won’t go away unless we act, when you go to lectures by the SAS you can see the elder generations expressions, they look so uncomfortable it’s unbelievable, we like to keep everything behind closed doors because of our honour system, well, i think at some point your going to have to make a choice, you can either keep your honour or you can grow he hell up and start dealing with these issues.

I’m only too aware of the mindless posts on forums & elsewhere, no doubt about it there is an element that latches on to an issue out of malice for another community to paint a one sided picture. But as informed members of society with enough intellect to decipher between propaganda & genuine issues, media personnel whether they be bloggers or journalists need to be careful that in the interest of projecting themselves as ‘Secular beyond reproach’ they don’t turn a blind eye or even worse go into denial about allegations made against a community per sae without first thoroughly investigating them to be false. I do not believe this ‘targeted attack upon Sikh girls’ is anywhere as widespread or organised as some would lead you to believe. I do not believe Sikh girls are being targeted for their religion, but I can see how a group of men who are deviant and devious as well as devilish intent upon recruiting victims would first look amongst their own, when that proves difficult or even risky because their own culture is very conservative & orthodox then they would look at the next easiest target which may well be vulnerable white girls in the host community from broken homes/shelters or girls who are from a neighbouring community who happen to speak similar language, also share music, cuisine & many other aspects of their culture but come from slightly more liberal households that afford them more freedom. You then can see why Punjabi Sikh/Hindu girls can indeed be a group from which Pakistani Punjabi men would try & recruit their next victim. All in all this topic needs much more academic research at the highest level and should not be simply dismissed as a bigoted group pointing fingers in the dark.

this issue of grooming gangs has sent lefties into a tailspin. Suggesting an equivalency between Sikhs, Hindus and the phenomenon of Muslim grooming gangs is risible and pathetic.

“Its british cultural problem.. young women here are not being protected properly and thugs for all colors get to exploit them…”

Raji, we don’t need protecting. We need you men to stop raping us. It’s really that simple.

Try: How India treats its women
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20863860

And all the controversy about Muslim women having to wear a Niqab or Burka in Islamic countries is to reduce the chances of women being attacked because their unrelated menfolk otherwise become inflamed.

There is no excuse for monster to prey on innocent children regardless of backgrounds. I do however want to make a statement why are the Caucasian victims just ‘white’? do white people not have a religion? The grooming that we hear of late is religious peadaphilia, the ‘white’ victims could be Christians… It’s that not worthy to mention as this is a Christian country? The police need to tackle this with urgency. Even though statically most peadaphilies are white this will soon change if we allow these grooming gangs to carry on without public humiliation. I however support the Sikh community for voicing out their concerns.

@37

“buddyhell = blah blah blah blah.

If one takes note of statistics and whats actually going on they are a “white supremacist” “nationalist” “racist” and oh yea its the “patriarchy” and you are of course “right wing”

You sad, sad, sad bastard. One would have thought any human would have come up with something better in life than to divert attention and troll such an issue”.

You protest too much and you’re projecting: it’s you who’s the “sad bastard”, chum. Bye.

@44

“this issue of grooming gangs has sent lefties into a tailspin. Suggesting an equivalency between Sikhs, Hindus and the phenomenon of Muslim grooming gangs is risible and pathetic”.

You comment is risible and you’re playing the same old tune on a broken fiddle. The fact is that the majority of people convicted of child sexual offences are ‘white’.

@32

I bet you have nothing to say about all the boys who are groomed and abused. I wonder why you or those like you never actually say anything about it? Is it because you see this as ‘toughening’ them up? You seem to have a lot to say for yourself. Why are you so silent?

@47

“There is no excuse for monster to prey on innocent children regardless of backgrounds. I do however want to make a statement why are the Caucasian victims just ‘white’? do white people not have a religion”?

Not all ‘white’ people are Christian. Some are atheists. Then again, when the usual suspects complain about “Muslims”, they are referring specifically to people who aren’t ‘white’.

I bet you have nothing to say about all the boys who are groomed and abused. I wonder why you or those like you never actually say anything about it? Is it because you see this as ‘toughening’ them up?

You come on here saying its not about religion, only white supremacists think that. I provide a link of a religious leader saying religion is inextricably linked to this issue, and you’re response?

In my youth I think I would have struggled to contain my self if someone accused me, to my face of seeing child abuse as “toughing children up”.

Can every one here see the desperate tactics to divert attention in other directions? If you suspect a link you’re a white supremacists, nationalist, racist, and if you call this out as bullshit and provide something or someone that can not be dismissed as any of the above you are then accused of being to silent on the issue, of not caring for the victims, of seeing it as “toughening them up”

Its apparent keyboards are what keeps your kind of warrior alive in this world.

The most concerning point is what do these people have to gain from attacking anyone in such severe ways for suspecting a link between religion and this issue? We have Imams telling use there is a link, an apparent 95% presence in the conviction rate and yet in the face of that individuals are still willing to throw the above kind of accusations around, what do they have to lose if this issue comes to an end:S…

You have a lot to say buddyhell, yet in the face of Dr Taj Hargey views on the issue you fall silent and practically accuse me of almost condoning child abuse for simply presenting his views, you certainly are coming across as an individual with something at stake here.

As for the abuse of the young in Christian countries, in terms of numbers this has been largely manifested in the abuse of the young and vulnerable by Catholic priests as the result of enforced celibacy. It must be arguable whether pornography or the Catholic priesthood has inflicted more harm in recent decades.

No one has mentioned the important, powerful demographic factor in Asia.

Nobel laureate Amartya Sen has estimated “that more than a hundred million women were ‘missing’ (in the sense that their potential existence had been eliminated either through sex selective abortion, infanticide or inadequate nutrition during infancy).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women_of_Asia

The likely outcomes of the missing women in Asia are the sexual abuse of women, the persistence of prostitution – as with the Devadasi in the ancient Yellamma cult in India, the increasing proliferation of gay relationships and polyandry, with each wife having several husbands. In the “liberal” west, the last is manifested in the increasing popularity of cuckolding.

Possible policy implications: legalisation of prostitution – as in New Zealand, Germany etc; the banning of polygyny (plural marriage with each husband allowed many wives) and the official promotion of polyandry (one wife, many husbands), perhaps through tax breaks.

As for the abuse of the young in Christian countries, in terms of numbers this has been largely manifested in the abuse of the young and vulnerable by Catholic priests as the result of enforced celibacy.

What ludicrous and tendentious nonsense.

55. Just Visiting

Kam Chana
42
> that’s like the Americans saying all terrorists are from a Muslim background, which considering the majority of terrorist act committed in the US are by White Christians is a bit rich

What are your sources for that?

A critique of the words of Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation as reported at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html (and also in the Daily Mail, which appears to be the source of the Telegraph story).


Hargey responds to the sentencing of Muslim men in Oxford for grooming vulnerable young women with a polemic against Muslims. I am prepared to believe that Hargey has been selectively quoted. I believe that he spoke without thinking — about what he really meant and how it might be used.

And some of his words were really dumb.

Hargey: ‘But then part of the reason this scandal happened at all is precisely because of such politically correct thinking. All the agencies of the state, including the police, the social services and the care system, seemed eager to ignore the sickening exploitation that was happening before their eyes.’

This is like blaming a pond drowning attended by rescue services on health and safety: we all know that somebody probably died because somebody else was unwilling or incapable of doing their job, but blame was passed to another body.

Hargey blames non-intervention by the police and social services on ‘political correctness’. Some people view non-intervention as the police and social services not doing their jobs. One of the survivors of Oxford abuse grooming sees it that way.

Hargey defends uselessness further: ‘Terrified of accusations of racism, desperate not to undermine the official creed of cultural diversity, they took no action against obvious abuse.’

So whilst dealing with young women who displayed physical evidence of sexual and violent abuse, abuse survivors delivered to them by the perpetrators, ‘care workers’ were allegedly afraid to declare that young women were being abused. What a crock of shit. They just weren’t bothered.

Telegraph: ‘The men were allowed, he said, to come and go from care homes by the authorities, and if the situation had been reversed with gangs of white men preying on Muslim teenagers ”the state’s agencies would have acted with greater alacrity.”’

So it is fundamentally about whether ‘care workers’ give a shit about ‘their’ kids.

Hargey: ‘The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent, and sleazy — sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers.’

That is a statement about hate speech in mosques, which may cause social tension. Hargey does not have the knowledge or balls to name preachers or mosques which incite violence and abuse. I believe that they exist, but Hargey leaves me ignorant about who and where.

Hargey: ‘Their dress code, from miniskirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded.’

Sadly, Hargey does not go on any further in the quote. For which I suspect a journalist trimmed the dialogue. I do not know what Hargey might have added.

Whilst being an atheist, I think about the messages of theism. I don’t recall any religious text which justifies abuse of impure and immoral women and men. Apart, perhaps, from the works of Aleister Crowley?

Telegraph: ‘Such cases can only be prevented in the future if Britain abandons the blinkers of political correctness, he concludes.’

The Telegraph set that quote up nicely.

@53. Bob B: “As for the abuse of the young in Christian countries, in terms of numbers this has been largely manifested in the abuse of the young and vulnerable by Catholic priests as the result of enforced celibacy.”

If enforced Catholic celibacy was a root cause of kiddy fiddling, why was child abuse common in Anglican churches and church schools?

@54. vimothy: “What ludicrous and tendentious nonsense.”

Poundland sells mirrors.

Consider what you wrote @33 which is equally dumb.

@41. Sid: “The problem isn’t Sunny. It’s people (a) desperately trying to pin child grooming solely on Muslim men…”

Police forces and ‘child care’ agencies have been alerted to the fact that many of their staff do not give a shit about kids.

Muslim groomers assume that nobody cares; non-Muslim abusers presume the same fucking thing.

@Sid: “and (b) trying to turn this into a race/religion issue by implying these men only target girls outside their race/religion.”

I don’t want to think about victims too much. I wanna think about high fliers.

High flying survivors.

Charlieman: “If enforced Catholic celibacy was a root cause of kiddy fiddling, why was child abuse common in Anglican churches and church schools?”

As best I can tell from news reports, sexual abuse of the young, mainly young boys, was nowhere nearly as prevalent in Anglican churches and church schools as in Catholic institutions.

Settlements and bankruptcies in Catholic sex abuse cases have affected several American dioceses, whose compensation payments have totaled in the billions of dollars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

If there is a case for banning pornography, there is surely a more compelling case for a universal ban of the Catholic church to protect the young from abuse. The list of countries afflicted by the abuses of the Catholic priesthood is horrifically long.

At least that makes clear sexual abuse is not restricted to the followers of Asian religions and cultures but it dodges the fundamental issue of what to do about the social consequences of the missing millions of women in Asia as the result of gender selective abortion and infanticide.

@61. Bob B: “As best I can tell from news reports, sexual abuse of the young, mainly young boys, was nowhere nearly as prevalent in Anglican churches and church schools as in Catholic institutions.”

Anglicans may disagree. Ask them about fiddlers.

Charlieman: “Anglicans may disagree. Ask them about fiddlers.”

As the French say: Chacun a son gout, but at least we can agree that abusive sex is not peculiar to Asian religions and cultures. Be that as it may, there remains the challenging policy issue of what to do about the social consequences of the gender imbalance in Asian countries.

Amartya Sen:

In Europe and North America women tend to outnumber men. For example, in the United Kingdom, France, and the United States the ratio of women to men exceeds 1.05. In many Third World countries, however, especially in Asia and north Africa, the female:male ratio may be as low as 0.95 (Egypt), 0.94 (Bangladesh, China, and west Asia), 0.93 (India), or even 0.90 (Pakistan). These differences are relevant to an assessment of female inequality across the world
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden/GenderInequalityMissingWomen.pdf

61. Bob B
Charlieman: “If enforced Catholic celibacy was a root cause of kiddy fiddling, why was child abuse common in Anglican churches and church schools?”

As best I can tell from news reports, sexual abuse of the young, mainly young boys, was nowhere nearly as prevalent in Anglican churches and church schools as in Catholic institutions.

Charlieman,

I tried to use your mirror, but couldn’t see my face and cut myself whilst shaving.

As for “dumb”, I suppose that if I had said that child abuse in “Christian countries” (by which I assume Mr B. means the atheistic West) was largely the preserve of Muslim rape-gangs, then your comment might have some merit.

As it happens, I made no such assertion. What I asserted was that it is no bigotry to care for one’s own people, and to seek to protect those people from the predations of others. That this is the sort of thing everybody understands naturally — except perhaps for ultra-liberals, who can always be found scrambling to the nearest patch of moral high ground, from where they are better able to look down upon their fellows — can be seen by examining your own feelings for your family, which you undoubtedly love more than mine. Which makes you a bigot, by Mr Hundai’s lights.

Substantively (and quite obviously), what I wrote has little to do with the actions of Muslim rape-gangs or child abuse more generally; it was a comment about the extraordinarily silly contortions into which the ruling ideology of our age leads its more committed proponents. Caring for particular people is wrong, because it implies that one doesn’t care for anyone else. Criticising particular people is wrong, because it legitimises the existence of particular people, whereas we know that humanity is one universal brotherhood, wherein all people are the same and no differences exist.

@65. vimothy: “I tried to use your mirror, but couldn’t see my face and cut myself whilst shaving.”

That is your problem. You are unable to see the problem when it is presented in your face.

I wonder what the result of this recent decision of a German court will be?

(Reuters) – A German court ruled on Wednesday that Muslim girls must take part in school swimming lessons with boys, in a landmark decision that touches on the sensitive relationship between religion and the state.
The decision by Germany’s top court for public and administrative disputes signals that the state’s constitutional obligation to educate children can take precedence over customs and practices linked to an individual’s religious beliefs.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/11/uk-germany-muslims-swimming-idUKBRE98A12E20130911

After France banned the wearing of hijabs in schools in 2004, intolerance in European countries over the insistance of Muslims to continue with their religious practices regardless of the sentiments and indigenous practices of European host communities seems to be spreading.

Perhaps if you laid the problem out in front of me instead of “presenting it in my face”, it might be easier to bring it into focus.

Although if the problem is that I can’t see the problem that you are presenting in my face, and the problem that you are presenting in my face is the problem that I can’t see the problem that you are presenting in my face, and so on, it’s probably best to leave it blurred.

@65. vimothy: “I tried to use your mirror, but couldn’t see my face and cut myself whilst shaving.”

Sorry, but sharp edges are prickly.

“As for “dumb”, I suppose that…”

I may disagree with you, and I may say that some arguments are dumb, but I do not think that you are stupid.

For comparison with hijab, niqab and burka bans in Europe, the city of San Francisco in America, which by wide consensus in America is deemed the most “liberal” place in the country, has recently banned public nudity:

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) — A federal judge Thursday turned down a request by five nudism activists for a temporary restraining order blocking a San Francisco ban on nakedness on public streets, sidewalks and transit vehicles. [21 May 2013]
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/03/21/federal-judge-upholds-public-nudity-ban-in-san-francisco/

Is this intolerant?

@55 Just Visiting,

” that’s like the Americans saying all terrorists are from a Muslim background, which considering the majority of terrorist act committed in the US are by White Christians is a bit rich
What are your sources for that?”

It’s said in context in relation to the point I was trying to make, but for factual data it’s worth looking through the FBI’s own data who themselves admit that between 1980 and 2005 90% of domestic terrorism was committed by non-Muslims (link below)

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05sum

From the news reports, how many Muslims were killed today by other Muslims in Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, Yeman etc? And how many Christians were killed today by Muslims in Egypt, Nigeria etc?

@52

“You have a lot to say buddyhell, yet in the face of Dr Taj Hargey views on the issue you fall silent and practically accuse me of almost condoning child abuse for simply presenting his views, you certainly are coming across as an individual with something at stake here”.

What on earth are you talking about? I never “accused” you of “child abuse” but it’s clear that you have some rather curious ideas about child abuse. Indeed, you seem to believe that grooming is unique to Islam, when the majority of people incarcerated in British prisons for child sexual abuse are white. Now, I’m sorry if you can’t wrap your big thick head around that but tough. Furthermore, if you don’t think patriarchy has anything to do with this, then you’re more than likely to accept the patriarchal status quo and probably hold some decidedly dodgy views on Otherness.

Over to you.

@72

And how many Christians are killed by other Christians?

Cheers for the red herring, dude.

75. Paul Peter Smith

@73. buddyhell
” Indeed, you seem to believe that grooming is unique to Islam, when the majority of people incarcerated in British prisons for child sexual abuse are white.”

But then most of the population are white aren’t they, would this be one of those red herrings you like so much? What is % of offenders in relation to ethnicity or would that be racial profiling?

The author is not telling the truth and evidence has been produced about predatory fanatical Muslims. There guilt has long been established and not questioned in my area of London. Such problems have been dealt with effectively in the interest of good community relations. Whether Islam is a religion of perverts or has an extraordinary high number of deviants is a matter for psychologists and the police. The local Mosque had to apologise fr disturbing leaflets distributed at an Asian Mela. I wish the bad elements in Islam would go away.

Wow I am amazed at the audacity of this author!!! As a Sikh girl who grew up in Leeds I can categorically tell you that a large majority of Muslim men were most definitely attempting to groom sikh girls . As a Sikh girl there was not a single place where I was not aggressively harassed by Muslim men . I experienced their attempts first hand !! When I refused to play ball I was stalked and harassed to the point where my family and I had to take a restraining order out against one individual I was stalked for two years at university it was the most frightening time of my life as this individual and his friends would be everywhere I turned . My Dad and brothers never got the chance of a face to face with this particular cretin but suffice it to say there would not have been a limb left in tact. We were posted vile materials inflammatory letters stating how it was every Muslim mans duty to convert these Sikh slags . At the same time many of our Sikh friends were being littered by similar provoking leaflets actually posted through their letter boxes if this is not targeting what is ? Our religion is about honour and they knew exactly which buttons to press . The author is severely disillusioned if he thinks the atrocious and manifold actions of the vast majority of Muslim male youths is comparable to the beauty and serenity of the Sikh religion . I have never heard of a Sikh Man raping a Sikh woman. Citing the atwal family as an example of Sikh dysfunctionality is seriously clutching at straws . A control freak mother in law is not comparable to harassing raping and grooming young girls till they conform to your bullying wishes. Today I read about the brutal murder of a Sikh grandmother in Chatham by the hands of three Muslim men . What does the author of this post have to say in reply to this ?? Not much I expect the start of your post is as ridiculous as your historical inaccuracies regarding the partition . Sikhism is a peaceful beautiful religion which manages most remarkably to coexist with every faith and society often becoming pillars and fighting strengths in their communities with the exception of one . I am not going to be so crass as to condemn the whole of the Muslim faith but I think most non Muslims would agree there is a pattern emerging here. Perhaps it stems from the parenting but at what point as a society and as a faith do you start to question maybe it us and not them !!

The fact that the girl sent to California was approached during Nagar Kritan by a man wearing Kara and ramal shows that they are targeting Sikh girls.


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