‘PC gawn mad’: Sainsbury’s markets to Muslims shocker


5:41 pm - July 1st 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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In a shocking move today, a supermarket chain tried to appeal to a section of the British public with targeted messaging.

The Sainsbury’s promotion for Muslims obviously illustrates how far sharia has spread across the UK.

Naturally, English Defence League supporters were outraged at this latest instance of British civilisation going down the train. It’s not like they hate all Muslims or anything…

(via @exposetweets)

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


Oh yes sunny the evidence is there 13 people posted on facebook!!!

2. Martin Young

Just goes to show there are knObs everywhere

Very creative Martin, when are you changing the name of the blog to something EDL related anyway sunny? The most pressing issue our times have ever seen.

4. Mr Staunch

“Only £10, Only £6, Only £7, Only £13”
Mrs Staunch doesn’t like those “Offers”.
Is that url kosher?

Fair point though my local Sainsbury’s now also sells a Halal meat range which I’m uncomfortable with in terms of animal welfare. There are now more humane ways of slaughtering animals, it’s just cruelty not to use them. Of course there are lots of supermarkets using lots of different poor animal welfare meat, but we shouldn’t ignore this.

@6.
If there is a more humane way of killing animals, could that method be extended to humans?
I’m sick of reports about military bombs, shells, 30 calibre machine gun bullets from Apache helicopters, drones, collateral damage etc.

7. Paul peter Smith

I think it breaks up the monotony of shopping when you encounter culturally diverse foodstuffs. The majority immigrant population in my area is Polish so all the supermarkets have extensive ‘sausages in jars’ aisles which I often enjoy strolling through.

Of course lol. Who wants the same food ALL the time? It’s just marketing for “relieve me of boredom, plus that bit of cash i wouldn’t have otherwise spent”

I think what follows the plus covers it.

Of course the EDL hate musliums, you only have to read their twitter feed, listen to the speeches made and read the twitter comments of Tommy Robbinson. There is clear Islamphobia there.

What the fuck, I thought everyone liked curry?
EDL, you are disappoint.

when are you changing the name of the blog to something EDL related anyway sunny?

I quite enjoy watching fascist supporters coming here and whining helplessly. WHINE MORE

12. dissident

That’s not very nice sunny calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist…

You’ve only made soundbites against Islamofascists hardly credible as an antifascist are you on that score alone…

Your hysteria/paranoia of all EDL related things are unbecoming of you as a serious journalist… Where does it say in that screencaption that any of those 13 are EDL?

Hmm…

13. Paul peter Smith

Fascist / Communist…….Potato / Potartoe!
EDL Demagogue/Thug …….UAF Demagogue/Thug
Labour…..Conservative
Just thinking outloud about choices.

“Could I go to Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran and start selling McDonalds” *Facepalm*
http://www.mcdonaldsarabia.com/arabia/home.html

You’ve only made soundbites against Islamofascists hardly credible as an antifascist are you on that score alone…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY

I quite enjoy watching fascist supporters coming here and whining helplessly. WHINE MORE

Fascist ~ ideology of governmental suppression of individual freedom.

Believes people should be banned from the country because of their views alone ~ tick.

Believes people should be arrested for walking in the street because of their views alone ~ tick.

Its not me who ticks those boxes. We all know you are seriously unnerved by the edl, we just did not think it would get to the stage you are making entire topics about their scribblings on facebook.

17. Man on the Clapham Omnibus

Whats wrong with killing a goat in the middle of a supermarket?

18. Baton Rouge

Ironic that the Zionist sponsored EDL should protest this as there have been, rightly, kosher sections in most supermarkets for quite some time. Give the people what they want I say.

19. pipsqueak

EDL types haven’t noticed that shops market food for the Chinese New Year ?

Is that a sign of creeping Chinafication ?

Or creeping Judaism when shops promote Jewish festival food ?

No, of course not.

Neither is it creeping Islamification to promote food suitable for Ramadan.

20. Shatterface

That’s not very nice sunny calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist…

He also deleted my post pointing out that LibCon threw a hissy-fit when Hamleys, Tesco and Harrods targeted their toys and books at different genders.

Target marketing is apparently fine when it’s about ethnicity but not about sex.

21. Shatterface

Ironic that the Zionist sponsored EDL should protest this as there have been, rightly, kosher sections in most supermarkets for quite some time. Give the people what they want I say.

What is it about this site that raving antisemites find so comfortable?

22. Baton Rouge

Shitterface you’ve lost the plot. I say kosher food should rightly be stocked in supermarkets and you call me a raving anti-semite. I’m not. You on the other hand are clearly a raving idiot.

23. Paul peter Smith

He thinks Zionisits are semitic.

24. Robin Levett

@dissident #12:

Where does it say in that screencaption that any of those 13 are EDL

Well, it is of course true that one doesn’t have to be EDL to post on the official EDL Facebook page; but it’s not an unreasonable supposition that those who do, and particularly those who do so in this vein, are indeed EDL supporters.

25. Baton Rouge

#23 Indeed. He’s an arse faced arse.

@20 – I suppose targeting a religion opposed to a gender makes sense. One is compulsory and one isn’t.

Baton Rouge,

“the Zionist sponsored EDL…”

Where is your evidence that the EDL are ‘Zionist sponsored’?

And we know by ‘Zionist’ you mean Jew, or you wouldn’t have made the Kosher reference. Jews eat kosher, nobody else does. So if you are claiming ‘Zionist’ isn’t code for ‘Jew’, then why bring kosher into this at all?

You are just another ‘progressive’ antisemite who is daft and arrogant enough to think that applying the term ‘Zionist’ rather than ‘Jew’ to tried-and-tested antisemitic demonisation – it used to be Jews openly accused of the same things you now ‘merely’ accuse ‘zionists’ of – gives you an out and won’t be noted.

But then LC is the home of the grubby Jew-baiter Ben White, so we should not be surprised.

27. Try this article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/23/edl-religious-groups-targeted-anti-islam_n_1907562.html
There are religious and political fundamentalists in many countries and extremism/authoritarianism is not confined to one faith group.
Please do some research.

29. A Vegetarian

Kosher, halal or not, meat is murder.
Eat your greens, it will make you see better in the dark.

I don’t think it’s the fact that Sainsbury’s are marketing to Muslims that makes them mad in and of itself. It’s more the fact that it represents a fait accompli that is seeing their country transformed into something else before their eyes, not only without as much as a by your leave, but also with a good deal of hysterical viciousness whenever they dare to object.

30. I doubt if anyone expected to read the term ‘fait accompli’ in explanation for some hysterical behaviour over a supermarket leaflet.

32. Derek Hattons Tailor

Er wasn’t there a rant on here from some crypto feminist complaining about gender segmentation in the toy market a few weeks ago ?
I’ve got no issue with this provided other religious festivals are celebrated in equally cynical marketing ploys.

@ Shatterface, DHT:

“LibCon threw a hissy-fit when Hamleys, Tesco and Harrods targeted their toys and books at different genders.”

“wasn’t there a rant on here from some crypto feminist complaining about gender segmentation in the toy market a few weeks ago ?”

The ethnic equivalent of marketing (say) science kits to boys and make-up kits to girls would be something like, I dunno, marketing “doctor” dressing-up outfits to white children and “pop star” dressing-up outfits to black children. If Hamleys started doing that, I’m sure we’d see another “hissy fit” from Lib Con about the reinforcement of stupid and limiting stereotypes. Plugging (say) ghee “for Ramadan” and goose fat “for Christmas”, on the other hand, is just a complete non-issue. Doubly so because to include a food item in a Christmas/Ramadan/Chinese New Year offer is not thereby to imply that it’s “not for non-Christians/non-Muslims/non-Chinese people”; whereas to put a science kit on the boys’ shelves, with a picture of a group of boys using it on the box, *is* to imply that’s it’s “not for girls”.

There are some surnames here with some very flaky claims on Englishness. “Lefevre”, “Round” & “Faulkner” are French. “Burke” – Irish-Norman. “Hudson” – Anglo-Scottish. “Rawson” – Norman-Viking. “Green” meanwhile could be Celtic, and therefore is not English either. Of course surnames will at best indicate the paternal roots, not all the other genetic influence.

With all these “foreigners telling us what to do”, maybe Nicola Wright’s message at the end (“Wright” is Anglo Saxon) was telling Burke and co to go back home if they do not like the freedoms of England. What a pity she did not stay true to her roots and deliver this message in Eald Englisc.

33. GO

cracking response. Well said

36. Man on the Clapham Omnibus

27. Lamia

out of interest do you distinguish between Zionist and Jew?

37. Man on the Clapham Omnibus

Where does a 8year old mixed race Chinese transgender Muslim
fit in with all this. No Toys I guess. They’re gonna end up fucked up for sure!

David Hodd,

The idea presumably being that, since we were invaded by the Normans 1000 years ago, we’ve no right to consider ourselves a distinct group of people. Since we’ve no right to consider ourselves a distinct group of people, we can’t be said to have any customs to speak of. Therefore it makes no sense to worry about the replacement of one way of life with another.

Is that about right?

(I suppose, extending the analysis, no peoples anywhere have particular ways of life, therefore it’s impossible for this to even be an issue — an argument which is so obviously self-refuting that it’s probably not worth bothering with.)

39. Man on the Clapham Omnibus

38. vimothy

Are we a distinct group of people?

I would have thought so.

38. How have the products offered in the Sainsbury’s leaflet affected what you regard as the distinct way of life?

If you can distinguish between ways of life then they must necessarily be distinct, right?

As for the Sainsbury’s leaflet, it’s the recognition of something that has already happened, and is continuing to happen. In and of itself it’s not very important, but it represents something that is more significant.

Perhaps that’s not a very good answer to a question I haven’t understood. If so, you might rephrase it.

43. I don’t see how the targeting of a group for the purpose selling groceries is an attack the way of life of any other group.
Does looking a box of dates, that has a drawing of a Middle Eastern scene on the front, at Christmas time upset some people to the point that they’ll want to inflict harm on others?

Well, I have no idea. I also haven’t described it as an attack on anyone’s way of life. Rather, it points to or represents something else — the repopulation of Britain (England, mostly) with foreigners — that people object to. Since Britain has been repopulated with foreigners, of course supermarkets will want to cater to their tastes. That’s what supermarkets do. No one (I think) is objecting to the principle that supermarkets cater to the tastes of their customers. It’s the fact that Britain is being repopulated with foreigners that bothers them, /as evidenced by/ things like Sainsbury’s marketing to, etc, etc.

45. The comments in the screenshot are hostile. Although you may have no problem with grocery outlets catering for different tastes some groups seem to be so opposed to the idea that the mere hint of something non-English has them filled with rage.

It’s like Wittgenstein’s famous question: If the lion could talk, would we understand him? Well, EDL members can talk (to an extent), but most of us can’t understand them. That’s why I’m here as an interpreter, translating the EDL’s rage across the inter-species divide.

So what’s the problem? They’re certainly not filled with rage at the mere hint of something non-English. That’s specious. It misses out literally *all* of the context. And it’s the context that has them so excited. The problem is,

Their country is being repopulated;
The photo in question is visible evidence of that repopulation;
Therefore,
Predictable FB comments follow beneath it.

47. Inter-species divide?

49. Paul Peter Smith

@48 Ceiliog
‘ inter-species divide?’
A pedant writes!

50. ultimatetroll

Like many liberals, Sunny is only capable of recognising fascism when it has a white face.

Eurabia here we come!

49. Sorry but I do not understand what ‘inter-species divide’ means.

Their country is being repopulated

No it isn’t, not according to any definition of repopulate I can find.

53. Paul Peter Smith

@51
Really! Vimothy was clearly using hyperbole in an attempt to placate your blatant pedantry in a humorous rather than confrontational manner.

54. Raylan Givens

@vimothy:- “repopulated”? Are you saying the indigenous people of this country are being ethnically cleansed without a democratic mandate for this?

55. Paul Peter Smith

@51
Really? Vimothy was clearly using hyperbole in an attemp to placate your blatant pedantry.

Larry, unless you say more about what’s wrong with the term, it’s hard for me to know what your objection to it is. I think that “repopulate” is precisely the right word for what is happening. For example, the first thing that comes up when I do a google search is,

repopulate [ri??p?pj??le?t]
vb (tr)
to provide a new population for (an area in which the population has declined)

and that seems to describe it exactly. Perhaps you would prefer “populate” (no re)?

Vimothy
You suggest Britain is being repopulated “by foreigners”. It must therefore have been depopulated. I am not sure this born out by facts. There were significant migrations of English folk to America. But then we were just repopulating the Americas as we depopulated it (and in places depopulated parts of West Africa so that we could further repopulate America with those people we abducted wholesale)

The more I look at this repopulation thing, I really don’t think we English have had much moral authority in this area – and as I said before, we are in any case a nation of mongrels, and always have been.

As self appointed translator to these EDL folk, can you pass this message on in “their langauage”.
As an interpreter, should facilitate two exchange.

“As an interpreter, should facilitate two exchange”

Ahem:
As an interpreter, you should facilitate two way exchange”

…And maybe even read the tiny writing on my smart phone to me before I press submit…!

55.
I see nothing pedantic, blatant or non-blatant, in asking a question to which I do not know the answer. If you know what ‘translating across inter-species divide’ means could you post an explanation?
47. If 55 cannot answer, could you explain?

60. Shatterface

The ethnic equivalent of marketing (say) science kits to boys and make-up kits to girls would be something like, I dunno, marketing “doctor” dressing-up outfits to white children and “pop star” dressing-up outfits to black children

That would only be a valid analogy if you think that doctor’s outfits are predominantly bought by white kids and pop star kits are bought by black kids. Perhaps you do but the analogy doesn’t work for me.

The Sainsbury campaign above is deliberately targeting Muslims because they know that it will predominantly be Muslims who buy these products – just as the toy campaigns were targeting their main market. Nobody is denying non-Muslims the right to buy this food and nobody is denying boys the right to buy make-up kits. I’m not objecting to either because targeted campaigns are a legitimate way to sell products – not a Utopian tool for social engineering.

Though if you’ve any evidence of a gender neutral marketing campaign successfully equalising the sales of lipstick to boys and girls I’d be interested in hearing about it.

61. Paul Peter Smith

When someone has explained their position several times and then asked you for assistance in answering you to your satisfaction, the classy comeback is not to nit pick over terminology. ie pedantry.

Ceiliog,
“Inter-species divide” is surely obvious in context, and witty to boot. I would hate to have to explain PG Wodehouse to you.

However, Vimothy loses points for using “in AND OF itself”, not once but twice.

So a nice improvised boundary, but back to the nets to work on the basics. (Not literally).

63. Paul Peter Smith

@59
Having trouble posting, hence repetition (sorry), last post not appeared, see if this does. Be with you shortly.

64. So Much For Subtlety

57. david hodd

You suggest Britain is being repopulated “by foreigners”. It must therefore have been depopulated. I am not sure this born out by facts.

Actually there is significant out migration of British people from the UK. Look at the figures.

The more I look at this repopulation thing, I really don’t think we English have had much moral authority in this area

I see. You think that because we bought Africans from other Africans we no longer deserve to exist as a people? An interesting point of view.

and as I said before, we are in any case a nation of mongrels, and always have been.

DNA testing proves otherwise. Until the post-1970s mass migration, British people were essentially exactly the same as they had been before the Romans turned up. Not even the Anglo-Saxon invasions changed the British population much.

But we are now seeing the indigenous British population becoming a minority. That is worrying for all sorts of reasons. No doubt you will call all of them racist.

63. Please don’t try and explain any further if it involves Wittgenstein and P G Wodehouse.
60. Can you list the products in the leaflet and explain why they are predominantly for Muslim customers?

66. ludicrous pseudonym

@64

and as I said before, we are in any case a nation of mongrels, and always have been.

DNA testing proves otherwise. Until the post-1970s mass migration, British people were essentially exactly the same as they had been before the Romans turned up. Not even the Anglo-Saxon invasions changed the British population much.”

Culturally, though? You can’t seriously suggest that the waves of immigration to our island over the past 2000 years haven’t created something of a “mongrel” culture.

“But we are now seeing the indigenous British population becoming a minority. That is worrying for all sorts of reasons.”

What is “the indigenous British population”? Where is it becoming a minority? Why is it worrying?

Yet again SMFS, you fail to provide definitions or source your statements. Must try harder old chap.

67. Paul Peter Smith

These islands have always benefited in the long term from their multi-racial composition. Whether the migrants to these shores came as invaders, traders or refugee’s our society is richer for it, to deny this is to show a colossal ignorance of history. Talk of ‘indigenous’ Briton’s is hilarious once you understand that the ‘Celts’ were not even the first migrants to these isles. But the most destructive, dangerous times in our history have been when two cultures compete for dominance. Multi-racial societies are beneficial on almost every level, from cross-pollination of ideas to genetic health to variety of fast food outlets. What’s always a recipe for strife are multi-cultural fault lines, see any period of history.

More people have now migrated to the UK in a single year (2010) than did so in the entire period from 1066 to 1950, excluding wartime.

The latest projections indicate that just over two thirds of our population growth is a result of immigration. The UK population is projected to increase from 63.2 million to 70 million in 2027. 5 million of this increase will be due to immigration. This number is equivalent to the current populations of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Glasgow and Bristol.

If I’d known someone was reading all my posts, Jack, I would have written some better ones.

Celliog, As others have noted already, it was just a crappy pun, playing on my analogy between the EDL and Wittgenstein’s Lion. Do you really want me to explain my crappy pun? I don’t think it was an essential part of the comment.

70. Paul Peter Smith

@57
‘I really don’t think we English have had much moral authority in this area…’

Compared to who? We came pretty late onto the slavery scene and although we did make a spirited late challenge for the title we didn’t even come close. The main slave routes across North Africa to the Middle East and beyond predate our ability to write and every major culture that I am aware of practised slavery or some form of indentured labour(except Australian Aborigines). In Africa the kingdom of Kush, the Benin Empire, the Zulu Empire all practised slavery as did the Mogul’s, Chinese, Aztec’s, Roman’s, Japanese and in a limited form even those poster children of ethnic cleansing, North American Indians. I would very much appreciate enlightenment if I am in error, but as far as I am aware the only thing that really stands out about Anglo-Saxon contributions to slavery is that we alone abolished slavery out of conviction. Pretty much everyone else gave it up when we forced them to at gunpoint.

71. Dissident

“12:42 am, July 2, 201312. dissident
That’s not very nice sunny calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist…

You’ve only made soundbites against Islamofascists hardly credible as an antifascist are you on that score alone…

Your hysteria/paranoia of all EDL related things are unbecoming of you as a serious journalist… Where does it say in that screencaption that any of those 13 are EDL?

Hmm…”

I’ve just noticed this Sunny lol

72. So Much For Subtlety

66. ludicrous pseudonym

Culturally, though? You can’t seriously suggest that the waves of immigration to our island over the past 2000 years haven’t created something of a “mongrel” culture.

I wouldn’t argue that. But I don’t see it is relevant. No doubt British Imperialism greatly enriched the culture of India. Not to mention Zimbabwe. Doubt they are all that happy about it.

What is “the indigenous British population”? Where is it becoming a minority? Why is it worrying?

The population that has had uncontested ownership of these isles for the past few thousand years. It already is a minority in some parts of the UK. Birmingham for instance. And needless to say London. The reasons why it is worrying are obvious. Ask the Pequot Indians.

Paul Peter Smith

These islands have always benefited in the long term from their multi-racial composition.

Until 1945 there was only one race in these isles unless you stretch a point and include some Syrian archers who came under the Romans.

Whether the migrants to these shores came as invaders, traders or refugee’s our society is richer for it, to deny this is to show a colossal ignorance of history.

That is not a statement of historical fact, it is an opinion. It is also an opinion long distant from said invasions. I doubt that anyone felt the same way about the Vikings at the time. Or for a long time afterward. Your statement is just proof of how rare it has been for foreigners to turn up and rape British women. As such it is historically illiterate.

However you may have a point. After all, British imperialism was great for the indigenous peoples of Canada, right?

Talk of ‘indigenous’ Briton’s is hilarious once you understand that the ‘Celts’ were not even the first migrants to these isles.

How long do you have to be somewhere before you are willing to consider them indigenous? This would make the British population of these isles more indigenous than the Arab populations of North Africa. Go on, tell us all how the Algerians are not indigenous to Algeria.

Tell me this isn’t just racism.

But the most destructive, dangerous times in our history have been when two cultures compete for dominance.

Really? I would have thought that the most destructive periods were periods where they didn’t – the Reformation for instance.

Multi-racial societies are beneficial on almost every level, from cross-pollination of ideas to genetic health to variety of fast food outlets. What’s always a recipe for strife are multi-cultural fault lines, see any period of history.

There is no such thing as a peaceful multi-racial society. At least not if the other race has sufficient numbers to do anything about it. There are no benefits from said societies. Virtually every human step forward has been the work of small ethnically homogeneous, disunited societies. Athens was not multiracial in any meaningful sense. Nor was Jerusalem. Nor was Florence. Nor was Britain during the Industrial Revolution. The British Empire was. How beneficial was that for the locals? Multi-cultural fault lines follow anywhere there is an awareness of a multiracial divide. Sure, if you can pursuade the other race that race is not important, you can keep them down for a long time. Look at Brazil. Or Bolivia. But eventually the other race is going to wake up and realise they are being ripped off. Racial conflict will then follow.

The whole trend of the modern world is towards racial, or ethnic if you like, and cultural homogeniety. States enforce it wherever they can. Which is why minorities are disappearing from the Middle East. The West may be engaging in some suicidal self loathing, but the same logic applies here. Britain can only, in the long term, have one culture, one language and perhaps even one religion. I would like it to be British in culture and English in language. With some Gaelic speakers left. I realise I am a minority here.

69.
My knowledge of Wittgenstein is limited and I had no idea that his works on philosophy were required reading before posting on here.

70.
Ah yes. The ethnic cleansing of North America. Ridding God’s Own Country of the Savages.

The mainstream media seem to be more concerned about whether or not is is acceptable to use a mobile phone whilst your groceries are scanned at a checkout.

74. imrankhan

Once again Sunny has tried to make something out of nothing and fallen flat on his face. I recall going into a supermarket in Stamford Hill in north London which has a massive orthodox Jewish community to find a large array of Kosher products including many sourced from Israel. This of course isn’t surprising and has been a situation that has prevailed for many years.

It seems that a total, so far, of thirteen tweets on the EDL site about this is a cause for concern and worthy of an article by Sunny. It does seem a situation where Sunny is looking for Islamophobia where it doesn’t exist and if it doesn’t it will have to be invented. You do Muslims no favours Sunny so why not give it a rest.

64 SMFS
You assert four “facts” –

1) migration out of UK is significant.
2) DNA proves that genetic make up of 1970 population is “essentially the same” as Iron Age Britain
3) Anglo-Saxon migration did not change UK population “much”
4) These bloodlines now form a minority of UK population.

Can you point to the evidence please? – or I may conclude you are making it up.

To further back your agument, you would need to clarify “significant”, “essentially the same” and “much”. On your last point a simple refernce that shows a <50% measure will suffice.

76. Paul peter Smith

72. So Much For Subtlety

These islands have always benefited in the long term from their multi-racial composition.

‘Until 1945 there was only one race in these isles unless you stretch a point and include some Syrian archers who came under the Romans..’

Curr Biol. 2003 May 27;13(11):979-84.
A Y chromosome census of the British Isles.
Capelli C, Redhead N, Abernethy JK, Gratrix F, Wilson JF, Moen T, Hervig T, Richards M, Stumpf MP, Underhill PA, Bradshaw P, Shaha A, Thomas MG, Bradman N, Goldstein DB.
SourceDepartment of Biology, University College London, Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT, United Kingdom.

Abstract
The degree of population replacement in the British Isles associated with cultural changes has been extensively debated. Recent work has demonstrated that comparisons of genetic variation in the British Isles and on the European Continent can illuminate specific demographic processes in the history of the British Isles. For example, Wilson et al. used the similarity of Basque and Celtic Y chromosomes to argue for genetic continuity from the Upper Palaeolithic to the present in the paternal history of these populations (see also ). Differences in the Y chromosome composition of these groups also suggested genetic signatures of Norwegian influence in the Orkney Islands north of the Scottish mainland, an important center of Viking activities between 800 and 1300 A.D. More recently, Weale et al. argued for substantial Anglo-Saxon male migration into central England based on the analysis of eight British sample sets collected on an east-west transect across England and Wales. To provide a more complete assessment of the paternal genetic history of the British Isles, we have compared the Y chromosome composition of multiple geographically distant British sample sets with collections from Norway (two sites), Denmark, and Germany and with collections from central Ireland, representing, respectively, the putative invading and the indigenous populations. By analyzing 1772 Y chromosomes from 25 predominantly small urban locations, we found that different parts of the British Isles have sharply different paternal histories; the degree of population replacement and genetic continuity shows systematic variation across the sampled areas.

PMID:12781138[PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

I believe SMFS’s ‘evidence’ for the genetic purity of these islands comes from an episode of ‘meet the Ancestors’ aired in the early 90’s. And then we have…

But the most destructive, dangerous times in our history have been when two cultures compete for dominance.

‘Really? I would have thought that the most destructive periods were periods where they didn’t – the Reformation for instance’

In what universe is the Reformation not a clash of cultures? just because another culture is imposed by an elite rather than mass migration doesn’t alter the fact that one belief system has given way to another. If you regard Islamification Vs secularism as a potential cultural flashpoint (which you clearly do, as do I!), then how is Protestantism vs Catholicism any different? And by the way the Reformation is a terrible example you would have scored more (some) points with the English civil war.
Not forgetting…

Whether the migrants to these shores came as invaders, traders or refugee’s our society is richer for it, to deny this is to show a colossal ignorance of history.

That is not a statement of historical fact, it is an opinion. It is also an opinion long distant from said invasions. I doubt that anyone felt the same way about the Vikings at the time. Or for a long time afterward. Your statement is just proof of how rare it has been for foreigners to turn up and rape British women. As such it is historically illiterate.

There are so many examples to the contrary that I dont know where to begin so in no particular order here’s a few from the top of my head, we’ll leave the Romans out of it because the roads go without saying dont they. The textile industries’ which were our first industrial/economic revolution, made largely possible by immigrants such as Walloons and there continental pals, the dyers were largely near/middle eastern in origin and the merchants that developed the trade largely Jewish. The wealth generated made us a world power for the first time and set the stage for most of what followed. The English language that you love so much exists in its printed form mainly because William Caxton had to import his type-setters from Flanders, thats why we spell Queen with ‘Qu’ not the Anglo-saxon Cween as was the actual English spelling. I’m going to stop now because nobody likes a post hog but feel free to call my bluff on the ‘so many examples’, just think about everyone else first, they may not be in as dire need of a history lesson as you.

76. Paul peter Smith
– thanks for the reference. that post has rather made my day!

I am sure we could build further on the “what have foreigners ever done for us”:

Tea, Cricket, Beer, Bungalows, Shires & Wapentakes and the Tower of London and the royal family all owe a lot to strong foreign influences, as does Shakespeare’s plays and sonnets.

Saint George was a Greek Palestinian who never set foot in England, and his flag was invented by the Italian and Spanish wing of the Knights Templars.

When laws are passed in this country, it is in the language of a foreign invader that the Cween confirms “it is so”.

Frankly I am proud of our multicultural heritage – as well as being ashamed of what we have done in the name or interests of England.

…and here’s something I did not expect.

A mosque in Jerusalem dedicated to St George. St George remember was from 3rd century Palestine.

http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=5549

Just who is taking over who’s culture?

79. Paul peter Smith

@77
my personal favourite is that 90% of all cucumbers eaten in the UK are produced by Dutch immigrants who settled in East Yorkshire. But I suppose it depends on how much you like cucumber.

“Frankly I am proud of our multicultural heritage – as well as being ashamed of what we have done in the name or interests of England”.

I’m not sure that we should feel pride or shame as we weren’t directly involved. However:

a) We’re very lucky to live in one of the world’s most developed and liberal countries, and we must strive to maintain and improve on what we inherited.

b) British history is more astonishing and interesting if you don’t airbrush the bad bits out. Please take note Mr Gove.

81. Paul peter Smith

@80
Perfectly put,
the point I’ve been failing to make clear is that the long and successful history of immigration in this country has been largely characterised by assimilation. Ooooo I said the A word am I still allowed to post here? multi-racial=good, multi-cultural=almost exclusively bad, unless your in the arms trade.

80.
Are you saying that what Britain does these days is immaterial if your signature does not appear on any of the documents?

81.
Multi-cultural arms trade?
Multi-cultural music, arts, food are mainly good. The blending of two styles, such as Celtic Salsa, can be enjoyable.

@82,
No. I’m saying I’m neither responsible for Cecil Rhodes nor the Mother of Parliaments.

84. Dissident

@82

After spending over a decade in a largely homogeneous ex mining area, I am looking forward to moving back to London. I prefer a cosmopolitan mix, it expands. I think that is why this country became one of the richest on the planet for its size anyway. Even in this homogeneity I still eat a truly international blend of cuisine. Fish & chips? Portuguese & French. Chicken tikka masala? Indian and English/ south american. Spaghetti bolognese? Italian, Chinese and South American. Come to think of it, chips French and South American. Etc……..

Musical tastes are just as diverse
Technology is just as diverse
Any more positives for it?

To see the consequences of racial, tribal and cultural purity look at the analogy of a pedigree dog, or thoroughbred horse, or inbred nobility. Give me Heinz 57 any day!!

Although I doubt that this will make many people change their minds about immigration, my understanding of the genetic inheritance of Britain is closer to that of SMFS than the paper quoted above. For instance, see this (*) article in Prospect (or Brian Sykes’ book “Blood of the Isles”). From the intro:

[M]ost of us are familiar with the idea that the English are descended from Anglo-Saxons, who invaded eastern England after the Romans left, while most of the people in the rest of the British Isles derive from indigenous Celtic ancestors with a sprinkling of Viking blood around the fringes.

Yet… new evidence from genetic analysis… indicates that the Anglo-Saxons and Celts… were both small immigrant
minorities. Neither group had much more impact on the British Isles gene pool than the Vikings, the Normans or, indeed, immigrants of the past 50 years.

The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands. Our subsequent separation from Europe has preserved a genetic time capsule of southwestern Europe during the ice age, which we share most closely with the former ice-age refuge in the Basque country…

Another wave of immigration arrived during the Neolithic period, when farming developed about 6,500 years ago. But the English till derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots… There were many later invasions… but no individual event contributed much more than 5 per cent to our modern genetic mix.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry/#.UdUwBTs3skR

86. Dissident

@ Vimothy

Yes, less than 5%. Throughout history. So explain SMFS style paranoia. Everything else is memes, which have mostly benefited us all. That is what I am alluding to…

@50

I know this is difficult for you. but please try not to be such a twat.

88. Paul peter Smith

@84 Dissisent
I think I’ve been making the same point, the benefits of a multi-ethnic society are indisputable (except possibly by SMFS). But those benefits didn’t happen in either a cultural vacuum or a multi-cultural free for all. They happened because a strong, tolerant and inclusive mono-culture provided the structure for and allowed space for it to occur. Take Syria for example, until a couple of years ago multiple supposedly irreconcilable cultures lived and thrived side by side under the aegis of a minority but dominant culture. Remove the controlling culture and see what happens. Ceiliog, can you now understand how the arms might benefit from this situation?

One argument is that Britian has always had high levels of
immigration, so that it doesn’t make sense to worry about it now. That seems a bit hard to reconcile with technological changes that are fairly recent. E.g., there were no jumbo jets in the 17th Century, so can we really have had a similar level of immigration?

Another version of this argument is that in the very distant past (1000s of years scale), Britain was invaded and reinvaded and so the original genetic stock is not actually that original. Then I suppose the argument is that even if the population has been relatively stable since then, we’re still a mongrel people at our origin, and so objections to current levels of immigration are irrational or unnecessary. But that doesn’t seem consistent with the evidence as presented in the Prospect article I posted.

Both the arguments take the line that since we had a lot of
immigration the past (one way or the other), we shouldn’t worry about having a lot of immigration in the present or in the future.

Suppose arguendo that they’re both wrong (which seems likely to me). By wrong, I mean, suppose that the antecedents are wrong. Will people making the arguments concede that the conclusions are also wrong? I don’t think so. People are committed to immigration for reasons that are generally independent of the level of historical migration. If you can show them that the historical level was not what they thought it was, their opinions of immigration in the present won’t change, for the most part.

90. Paul peter Smith

Vimothy
Always grateful for a new link. I’ve only had a quick look thru so I may retract this statement but it would appear to draw on studies which mostly predate the paper I posted, that doesn’t mean its wrong but it may mean that it has been superceded. My phone is terrible for reading large articles so I’ll have another look later.

88. I am well aware that arms dealers benefit from all kinds of political instabilities. I am aware that arms dealers prey on insecurity in individuals and groups e.g. Gun sales in the Southern States increased dramatically after Hurricane Katrina.
I put sellers of weapons on par with those who peddle dangerous drugs and the fact that both trades are multi-cultural is neither here nor there. Drug barons profess that if they didn’t deal then others would take their place and Governments have the same excuse when it comes to arms shipments.
Did you deliberately use the example of bombs and bullets as a multi-cultural ‘benefit’?

92. Dissident

@88

The real reason Syria has collapsed into civil war is because of extreme drought leading to a collapse of the harvests. A depressingly familiar pattern, which of course vultures like arms dealers exploit for profit. Even a monoculture will collapse in an identical fashion, as without food in the belly, even petty differences are used as justification for civil strife. Ironically, that strife destroys more infrastructure, guaranteeing yet more problems.

Dangerous drugs aren’t quite in the same category in our civilisation, as it is hard to equate the rhetoric about even heroin with a country where alcohol is legal. You only have to look at your average town centre on a weekend to see that!

93. Paul peter Smith

Ceiliog
Yes, I use all my examples deliberately, the thing I have no control over is your understanding of my examples.

94. Paul peter Smith

Dissident
I agree the drought is almost certainly the factor that ‘ unknown foreign powers’ needed to destabilize Syria. But had the Al Assad regime been more like the Gulf states it could trade more freely, raise investment capital and recieve substantial aid. Who can know for sure but it is my belief that a non pariah multi-ethnic state would survive the drought without a civil war.

92, 94
You seem to have moved way off subject and I’m sure that there are many threads that you can join about the turmoil in Syria.
93. Long may that be the case.

96. Paul peter Smith

Ceiliog
Its callled developing a debate around a theme, that being real or imagined conflicts caused by ethnicity and culture.

97. Paul peter Smith

Vimothy
Your example is more recent than mine not the other way round. Although I think the argument has the same flaw as my example. That is, the sample sites are usually too few to be conclusive.

98. Derek Hattons Tailor

@ 84 Chicken Tika Masala was invented in Birmingham. A brummie in an Indian restaurant asked for some gravy on his Chicken Tika and the chef gave him some masala sauce.
The “Indian” as eaten in the UK is a textbook example of cultural interpenetration. Traditionally accompanied by lager, an association begun by a Danish prince who brought his own barrel with him when visiting London and dining at probably the first Indian restaurant in London – itself established to meet demand for Indian food from Army Officers returning from the Raj. Early Indian restaurants gained much of their trade due to opening later than other restaurants enabling patrons to take advantage of a late drinking opportunity in the days before 24 hr bars. The fact that strongly spiced food overcomes the dulling effect of beer on the tastebuds doubtless enhanced the appeal of the end of the night curry.

Fish and Chips – probably Victorian era east end jewish migrants

Spaghetti – Noodles brought back from China to what is now Italy by silk route traders

Full English breakfast – actually a full German breakfast, made popular by our er German royal family and also called a full Irish in Ireland

Hamburgers and hot dogs – German

Apple pie – Probably English via religious migrants to the US

The fact is all countries have a cuisine influenced both by what the local conditions will support and by what travellers/migrants have added. The idea that the UK is unique in this is ill informed.

99. Derek Hattons Tailor

@89 One of the soft lefts favourite tricks is to pretend that because the UK population lacks an identifiable, centuries old genetic “purity” (no population does) that means there is somehow no such thing as being English/Scottish/Welsh/Whatever, as though national identity is an entirely genetic inheritance. The Nation state has nothing to do with genetic lines, it is formed by the coincidence of a geographic boundary with an administrative jurisdiction. Nations are rooted in the common culture formed by the shared history of that population. Neither has anything to do with the genetic origins of the population. Saying “there is no pure English gene, therefore no one is English” is like saying there is no pure intelligence gene, therefore no one is intelligent.

100. Ceiliog

96.
I’d describe it as going off at a tangent. Syria was created when the victors of WWI carved up the Middle East without any reference to the people. The causes of the current crisis in Syria are political, economic and the strategies of ruling classes local and international.
Syrian problems today are not about a failure of multi-cultural society. The cost of grain and the fact that the country is now a net importer of oil has created instability.
A culture clash example where there are no food or fuel problems is much closer to home.

101. Paul peter Smith

Ceiliog
I’m off topic? Didn’t you randomly bring up drug barons and your opinion of their excuses?

101.
No, I did not select drug barons at random. You used the arms trade as an example of multi-cultural deals and I provided a similar multi-cultural activity. I think that your example is poor so I used a similarly destructive trade that ignores culture.
Have you noticed that those who are extreme in their wish to live in a mono culture tend to go to sources that peddle hate? Hate addiction is psychological rather than physical but the craving for more of the same is strong and there are plenty of suppliers. Dogs eating other dogs’ vomit comes to mind.

103. Dissident

@98 I assumed that you would understand from what I wrote about different cuisines was automatically generic to all cultures/nations!

@99 The nation state is a passing fad, look at what Britain was a thousand years ago – ten separate kingdoms. 4 centuries ago that was reduced to 4, which then became “the United Kingdom” ie Britain. This century, it is more like continental blocs (remarkably similar to Orwells Oceania, Eastasia and Eurasia, or a Libertarian American scifi writer Greg Bear’s GEWA, GSHA and Eurocon in his novel Moving Mars)

The nation state is a side effect of the technology we were capable of in the transition between the renaissance and our modern industrial world. With current technology it is inherently impossible to survive in isolation – or in tribalistic fantasies. We live in a world of ICBM nukes and GM plagues, tech wise and AGW and peak (insert resource of choice here) resource constraint wise. The trend of millennia is there for all to see.

What will the future give us (very far from original thread, but still with a logical link there)

Incidentally, in terms of ‘races’ there is evidence now that genetic variation within races far outstrips any variation between races. Stuff like skin colour is more to do with epigenetics than anything else! So notions of racial purity is a fraud anyway.

As for cultural stuff, surely that is mere memetic programming?

104. So Much For Subtlety

88. Paul peter Smith

I think I’ve been making the same point, the benefits of a multi-ethnic society are indisputable (except possibly by SMFS).

Sorry but no, now you’re mis-stating what you said. You stated that Britain was a multiracial society. And the evidence you produced to support this was of some minor male immigration from Norway.

But those benefits didn’t happen in either a cultural vacuum or a multi-cultural free for all. They happened because a strong, tolerant and inclusive mono-culture provided the structure for and allowed space for it to occur.

Sure. Tiny additions to a large and stable pre-existing society can work. That is what you’re claiming isn’t it? That insignificant minorities can give us the Notting Hill festival and so on without too much violence in the streets?

Take Syria for example, until a couple of years ago multiple supposedly irreconcilable cultures lived and thrived side by side under the aegis of a minority but dominant culture.

Which is to say, if you’re a repressive military dictatorship with ample Soviet advisors and you regularly apply electrodes to the testicles of anyone who objects, as well as regularly massacre entire cities who resist, a la Hama, you can keep a lid on the worst violence. How Syria is an example of the joys of a multicultural society I do not know. Unless you like fried testicles I suppose.

105. So Much For Subtlety

75. david hodd

You assert four “facts” –

No I do not.

1) migration out of UK is significant.

It is running at something like 400,000 a year. Although not all of them are indigenous British people. Google is your friend.

2) DNA proves that genetic make up of 1970 population is “essentially the same” as Iron Age Britain

Which has been shown downstream in this thread.

3) Anglo-Saxon migration did not change UK population “much”

As has that.

4) These bloodlines now form a minority of UK population.

And I did not claim that.

Can you point to the evidence please? – or I may conclude you are making it up.

You can conclude whatever you like. Up to you. The real question is why are you wasting my time with things that you can trivially show yourself?

Paul peter Smith

These islands have always benefited in the long term from their multi-racial composition.

Notice that word Paul, multi-racial. Unless you are now claiming Norwegian rapists are actually another race, what point do you think you are making?

For example, Wilson et al. used the similarity of Basque and Celtic Y chromosomes to argue for genetic continuity from the Upper Palaeolithic to the present in the paternal history of these populations (see also ).

Genetic continuity from the Upper Palaeolithic to the present. Which would be my point really wouldn’t it?

I believe SMFS’s ‘evidence’ for the genetic purity of these islands comes from an episode of ‘meet the Ancestors’ aired in the early 90?s. And then we have…

I have never claimed Britain was genetically pure. Do not make idiotic claims up.

In what universe is the Reformation not a clash of cultures?

What cultures do you think are clashing? Some syphilitic whoremonger’s lust is not a culture.

just because another culture is imposed by an elite rather than mass migration doesn’t alter the fact that one belief system has given way to another.

One very minor change to the existing religious order is not a great shift in culture. Perhaps in Scotland you may have a case, but that would be later.

Whether the migrants to these shores came as invaders, traders or refugee’s our society is richer for it, to deny this is to show a colossal ignorance of history.

Up to 1900 that may have been true. I doubt it has been true since then. It is not ignorance. Those migrants were simply small in number and had little impact. Since then they have had a much larger impact and mainly for the worse.

the dyers were largely near/middle eastern in origin and the merchants that developed the trade largely Jewish.

That is interesting but I would like to see evidence. It is also irrelevant. That there was some people from the same race – indeed the Fresians speak the closest living related language to English – engaged in assimilating very quickly and working in an industry that already existed proves next to nothing.

The English language that you love so much exists in its printed form mainly because William Caxton had to import his type-setters from Flanders

I do not deny that living next to other countries with related cultures is not good for you. Athens did not live in isolation. But it was not multiracial.

You can quote from your Big Colouring Book of Multicultural Propaganda, but you have yet to show your claims are remotely true.

106. So Much For Subtlety

84. Dissident

After spending over a decade in a largely homogeneous ex mining area, I am looking forward to moving back to London. I prefer a cosmopolitan mix, it expands.

Got any daughters by chance?

Yes, the working class is so dreadful isn’t it? Not that your well known self loathing and dislike of the English are not displayed here regularly.

But what you are missing is that the logic of homogenisation has not gone away. The whole world is engaged in a process of homogenisation. Countries can only, in the long run, have one language and one culture. What you are seeing is not a stable situation. It is the slow replacement of the indigenous culture with something else. What else I do not know, but it will not be British. No doubt the Greeks greatly influenced the Ottomans, but Turkey is not Greece.

Even in this homogeneity I still eat a truly international blend of cuisine. Fish & chips? Portuguese & French. Chicken tikka masala? Indian and English/ south american. Spaghetti bolognese? Italian, Chinese and South American. Come to think of it, chips French and South American. Etc……..

Wonderful. If we can keep multiculturalism and immigration to providing the middle class with cheap take out, I would be all for it. But we can’t can we? We have a lot of other problems as well with that take out. 7-7 for instance. Drug crime. All crime really. Massive and unsustainable welfare payments. Grooming.

But of course that only bothers oiks and people from rough neighbourhoods where you would not go. You know, workers. Like the people who make up the EDL.

Dissident: “The nation state is a passing fad, look at what Britain was a thousand years ago – ten separate kingdoms. 4 centuries ago that was reduced to 4, which then became “the United Kingdom” ie Britain. This century, it is more like continental blocs”

I’m not sure this is true. There are certainly more European nations than there were 25 years ago, and let’s not forget rising tensions in the EU. Increasing polarisation in the US could lead to the individual states becoming much more independent of the centre.

There’s still a case for large blocs, largely based on mutual security. Beyond that, however, the current trend is towards greater autonomy.

108. Dissident

Ouch SMFS, your gish galloping can make this batshit crazy!

109. Charlieman

@72. So Much For Subtlety: “Athens was not multiracial in any meaningful sense.”

Are there any classical historians here who wish to define ‘multiracial in any meaningful sense’?

Athens, of course, is one of the places where written language developed. Consequently, documents from the Greco-Roman era provide political/economic history and social history. From all of them, we understand the concept of manumission, release of slaves to become freemen, and freemen or their children subsequently became citizens.

110. So Much For Subtlety

103. Dissident

The nation state is a passing fad, look at what Britain was a thousand years ago – ten separate kingdoms. 4 centuries ago that was reduced to 4, which then became “the United Kingdom” ie Britain. This century, it is more like continental blocs

I am not sure Scottish and Irish independence would suggest that is the case. There is certainly an elite push for a continental block. But the other large ones are in fact nation states – China is not only essentially a single culture with some tiny minorities, but that culture is becoming ever more homogeneous as they stamp out dialect. India has more problems. The US is huge – and English speaking.

So essentially Europe can survive as a continental block but only if it adopts one culture and one language.

With current technology it is inherently impossible to survive in isolation – or in tribalistic fantasies. We live in a world of ICBM nukes and GM plagues, tech wise and AGW and peak (insert resource of choice here) resource constraint wise. The trend of millennia is there for all to see.

That is of course nonsense. Nuclear weapons for instance saved the nation state. Without them we would have fallen to one or other continent-wide totalitarian state. In fact only nation states are capable of dealing with this problem, it is just that the “professionals” (academics and civil servants who want a superstate) like to claim otherwise.

Incidentally, in terms of ‘races’ there is evidence now that genetic variation within races far outstrips any variation between races. Stuff like skin colour is more to do with epigenetics than anything else! So notions of racial purity is a fraud anyway.

Actually it does not. It is not clear that there is more genetic variation within races than between them but even if that were so it is irrelevant. There is more variation among people with Down’s Syndrome than between any one person with Down’s and another person without it. But the small genetic difference there is makes all the difference in the world. Skin colour may not be significant but a lot of other things are. Your chances of having diabetes if you are American rises in direct proportion with your African heritage. The more scientists study, the more they find racial influences.

111. So Much For Subtlety

108. Dissident

Ouch SMFS, your gish galloping can make this batshit crazy!

Oh come on Diss. Buck up. You’re not batsh!t. Even if your arguments are.

Charlieman

Are there any classical historians here who wish to define ‘multiracial in any meaningful sense’?

Well there is a possibility that the occasional African slave turned up. Aristotle asserted that the semen of Abyssinians was white, not black. Although how he knew remains an interesting question. It suggests some level of contact. Perhaps even with Black Africans. But could you live your life in Ancient Athens without seeing a non-White? I would think so.

Athens, of course, is one of the places where written language developed.

Umm, no it was not.

Consequently, documents from the Greco-Roman era provide political/economic history and social history. From all of them, we understand the concept of manumission, release of slaves to become freemen, and freemen or their children subsequently became citizens.

Is that use of “Graeco-Roman” deliberately dishonest? Because it sure looks like it. Yes the *Romans* have left us with a wealth of documents that show the process of manumission, by which slaves became freedmen, not freemen, and then their children passed into normal Roman society. But that did not apply to the Greek world where getting citizenship was impossibly hard. Pericles made it even harder by insisting that both parents had to be citizens. Freed slaves did not get Athenian citizenship. In fact free Greeks, born and bred in Athens, did not unless they performed some special service.

112. Dissident

“Yes, the working class is so dreadful isn’t it? Not that your well known self loathing and dislike of the English are not displayed here regularly.”

Since I’m working class that is doubtful – it just depends on whether people are prepared to learn a thing or 2. Ignorance – especially wilful ignorance deserves its reward, as the ones you talk unto benefit the most.

“I am not sure Scottish and Irish independence would suggest that is the case. There is certainly an elite push for a continental block. But the other large ones are in fact nation states – China is not only essentially a single culture with some tiny minorities, but that culture is becoming ever more homogeneous as they stamp out dialect. India has more problems. The US is huge – and English speaking.”

All areas of this planet are just postcodes now, no nation has enough to stand alone, either in terms of resources or technology. Worse, your heroes in said multinationals decree it. Or are you saying globalisation and multinationals are false?

“So essentially Europe can survive as a continental block but only if it adopts one culture and one language.”

It is remarkable how many different meanings can be included in a single word. Other than that a lingua Franca for mutual understanding is useful. Since the majority of European nations evolved by fair & foul means out of many different pocket kingdoms/serfdoms etc, how is a continuation of what has already happened anyway such a problem – apart from the obvious tech leverage for gimps who are just as capable of pushing that “big red button” as the rest of us…

“That is of course nonsense. Nuclear weapons for instance saved the nation state. Without them we would have fallen to one or other continent-wide totalitarian state. In fact only nation states are capable of dealing with this problem, it is just that the “professionals” (academics and civil servants who want a superstate) like to claim otherwise.”

Wow, every other tech without exception, including potential killer tech becomes like the kitchen sink. Just from background knowledge even an ‘uneducated’ person can build a bomb. Ever sandwich matches between penny pieces as a kid, then use sticky back plastick to keep said pennies together, then throw at any fixed target for a satisfyingly scarpering bang? Centuries ago, that was magic (it’s not) and that can be adapted into something lethal if up scaled!

“Oh come on Diss. Buck up. You’re not batsh!t. Even if your arguments are.”

Who’se batshit – me, you or the combo?

SMFS
Re the 4 factual assertions you say you do not make.

Thanks for trying to back up the assertions you do not make.

I will only pick up on the last – mainly because on the other 3 you claimed they had been shown in the discussion to be True, which they had not, or you throw in a figure without any evaluation of why that backs your position.

I agree you did not claim that <50% of UK population is an "indigenous British minority". What you said was "we are now seeing the indigenous British population becoming a minority". Now the meaning of this assertion is also open to some interpretation. I believe it means we are approaching the time at which "indigenous British population" forms <50% of the population. Can you explain, with references to the research, when this point is expected to be met? – and perhaps also how those researchers how they defined "indigenous British population".

The reason I am making the effort to continue this debate with you is simple. I believe many of your arguments in this area are based on significantly flawed reasoning. You take a position which you know to be controversial amongst those you are engaging with, and clutch at half facts and apocrypha as though they were Truth. By challenging what you say in so many ways, your arguments are becoming increasingly contradictory.

Controversy with arguments to back it up are worthwhile – it moves us all on. Baseless controversy, is, to quote another Python sketch "simply contradiction". At the moment, contradiction is all you are offering. – I expect your reaction to this assertion is "No it isn't"!

114. Baton Rouge

#27 Lamia:

`Baton Rouge,

“the Zionist sponsored EDL…”

Where is your evidence that the EDL are ‘Zionist sponsored’?’

The EDL has Zionist sponsors. Two were prevented from entering the country last week. They share a common sectarian interest: the promotion of Islamaphobia and themselves as a bulwark against it. History is full of irony. Zionism is partly responsible for reintroducing fascist street thuggery back into Europe.

`And we know by ‘Zionist’ you mean Jew, or you wouldn’t have made the Kosher reference. Jews eat kosher, nobody else does. So if you are claiming ‘Zionist’ isn’t code for ‘Jew’, then why bring kosher into this at all?’

Fuck me you are a thick cunt aren’t you? I mentioned kosher as a good example of targetted marketing that should be encouraged. I am in favour of Jews having the opportunity to practisce their religion and buy the food they need to be able to do so. Nothing anti-semitic there I think except to the paranoid fuck or the liar. I also mentioned it as hypocritical that a Zionist supported outfit like the EDL should oppose Muslim-directed products and then presumably support kosher ones

`You are just another ‘progressive’ antisemite who is daft and arrogant enough to think that applying the term ‘Zionist’ rather than ‘Jew’ to tried-and-tested antisemitic demonisation – it used to be Jews openly accused of the same things you now ‘merely’ accuse ‘zionists’ of – gives you an out and won’t be noted.’

That’s a convenient if stupid argument. If I have an `out’ then I have an `out’.

115. Paul peter Smith

@104 SMFS
I think I’ve been making the same point, the benefits of a multi-ethnic society are indisputable (except possibly by SMFS).
“Sorry but no, now you’re mis-stating what you said. You stated that Britain was a multiracial society. And the evidence you produced to support this was of some minor male immigration from Norway”

Within the context of the discussion, I was broadly agreeing with Dissent that multi-racial communities are beneficial whilst restating my consistent argument that ‘multi-culturalism’ leads to strife unless one culture is dominant. You clearly read the first few lines of the abstract I posted but if you had continued you would have noticed that it referenced a number of earlier studies which claimed minor changes to overall genetic makeup (Norway, The Basque etc.) and then refuted them with the findings of their own much larger study. “some minor male immigration from Norway” was your basic position, not mine. Vimothy countered with an article that referenced a number of peer reviewed studies which I attempted to answer rationally and respectfully, you respond with your usual glib comments. Any time you wish to add something substantial to the debate i.e. some evidence, feel free.

Take Syria for example, until a couple of years ago multiple supposedly irreconcilable cultures lived and thrived side by side under the aegis of a minority but dominant culture.
“Which is to say, if you’re a repressive military dictatorship with ample Soviet advisors and you regularly apply electrodes to the testicles of anyone who objects, as well as regularly massacre entire cities who resist, a la Hama, you can keep a lid on the worst violence. How Syria is an example of the joys of a multicultural society I do not know. Unless you like fried testicles I suppose”

Syria was used as an example to show that a MINORITY culture can hold sway over many others and provide a relatively stable environment in which they can co-exist. Another very similar example for those old enough to remember would be Lebanon, which was formerly known as the garden of the near east and home to as diverse a population as Syria until the US and USSR fought their proxy war there via their puppets Israel and (ironically) Syria. At no point did I excuse the actions of the Al Assad dynasty so I don’t really see how an ad hominem attack on the regimes human rights record counters my argument or is even relevant. Name three countries that don’t violate their population’s human rights on a daily basis, haven’t you heard of extra ordinary rendition, PRISM, Guantanamo?

In what universe is the Reformation not a clash of cultures?
“What cultures do you think are clashing? Some syphilitic whoremonger’s lust is not a culture”
WOW!

“You can quote from your Big Colouring Book of Multicultural Propaganda, but you have yet to show your claims are remotely true”

I have been trying, clearly in vain, to forward the argument that multi-culturalism is generally a bad thing if not constrained by a tolerant and inclusive yet dominant primary culture, I don’t own any books on multi-cultural propaganda (except Hegel’s ‘Propaganda’ which is more to do with the mechanics of propaganda than the content, does that count?).

the dyers were largely near/middle eastern in origin and the merchants that developed the trade largely Jewish.
“That is interesting but I would like to see evidence. It is also irrelevant. That there was some people from the same race – indeed the Fresians speak the closest living related language to English – engaged in assimilating very quickly and working in an industry that already existed proves next to nothing..”

The technology and knowhow (particularly chemistry) that made the textile’s revolution possible were brought here and disseminated by the monasteries, who largely controlled production. It was they who brought the individuals with that knowledge (and their families) to these shores. The origins of colour in dye’s is much more interesting than you would imagine, particularly blue, but don’t look into it if you don’t want to find foreigners. But in short most of the early fixable dyes originated in the Levant and remained closely guarded trade and even state secrets, the church was in the happy position of having pan-European production/distribution and the muscle of a state with which to extract concessions and came to almost completely control the industry in Europe.
There were two main reasons for Edward I expulsion of the Jews in 1290ad. Firstly, he didn’t want to pay back all the money he had borrowed to try to persuade the Scots and Welsh that they would be much happier being English. Secondly, as is pretty standard for most of their history, the Jews were accused of having a strangle hold on key industries, primarily the wool trade which was the jewel in the crown. A trade that they had been instrumental in developing through the international Diaspora.

116. Paul peter Smith

“I was broadly agreeing with Dissent”
Obviously that should be “I was broadly agreeing with Dissident” sorry

David,

I know that Professor David Coleman at Migration Observatory has white Britons forming a minority in 2066 (at current trends — google “white Britons minority 2066”). Since the indigenous population is a strict subset of the white population, it will certainly be in the minority by then, if this prediction is correct.

118. Baton Rouge

#103 `The nation state is a passing fad’

Tell that to the Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians, Libyans, Tunisians, etc who are all struggling heroically for their national democratic revolutions against semi-colonial tyrants, land stealers and imperialism.

Long live the Global Revolution. Long Live the Arab Spring. Victory to the Egyptian National Democratic Revolution. Victory to the Syrian Rebels. Down with tyranny. Down with sectarian Zionism/Islamism. Down with imperialism.

119. Paul peter Smith

@113 David Hodd
your not accusing SMFS of being reactionary for its own sake are you, have you got any evidence?….oh thats right, most of his posts!

Going back to the poster/flyer for just a moment. If we say that Sainsbury’s shouldn’t advertise to foreign Muslims, what about British White English Muslims, or are there people out there who haven’t noticed that they exist and are growing in number? Maybe Sainsbury’s should endorse their poster “White English Ramadan Mubarak” before they use it? Or do White English people become foreigners if they choose to become Muslims?

“Long live the Global Revolution. Long Live the Arab Spring. Victory to the Egyptian National Democratic Revolution. Victory to the Syrian Rebels. Down with tyranny. Down with sectarian Zionism/Islamism. Down with imperialism.”

Viva Stalin! Four legs good! Buy One Get One Free!

Blimey, I’ve just woken up and it’s 1932.

122. Paul peter Smith

@118
Victory to the Syrian rebel’s!
Which one’s? the heart eating rebel’s, the toddler beheading rebel’s,the poison gas using rebel’s, the Qatari soldiers dressed as rebel’s, the Al-Qaida controlled rebel’s, the CIA’s rent a rebel’s or the rebel’s associated with that bloke who used to live in Coventry but can now afford to live in London. I think he’s called the ‘Syrian Human Rights Observatory’.

117. vimothy

Thanks for that link. I shall check it out. “white britons” sounds a bit like one of those classifications that dodgy anthropologists used – a bit like to be a Bantu in Apratheid south Africa, your hair had to be frizzy enough to wrap around and hold a pencil. I hope the classification is more robust than this or a certain Belgian immigrant’s “cricket test”

124. Baton Rouge

#121 `Viva Stalin! Four legs good! Buy One Get One Free!

Blimey, I’ve just woken up and it’s 1932.’

I think you’ll find the Stalinists are on the side of MB, Assad, Putin, Gadaffi, etc. not the Arab Spring you ignoramous. After 2008 you’d be forgiven for thinking you’d woken up in the 30s.

#122 `Victory to the Syrian rebel’s!
Which one’s? the heart eating rebel’s’

Yes, the heart eating rebels. Which ones did you think I meant? The Islamists or perhaps Assad’s merciless butchers?

125. Paul peter Smith

@124. Baton Rouge
Really? Not the actual Syrian’s who want to overthrow an oppressive regime but dont really want to eat anybodies heart or murder anyone’s children. I know they are in a minority but surely we should be rooting for them!

Baton Rouge,
I was joking. I though that sort of sloganeering had disappeared with Dave Spart and the Popular Front of Judea.

Who’s side are we on in Egypt by the way?

127. Dissident

@118

I was merely stating that as our technological capability expands, old political unions, like the current nation state seem to be developing trading blocs that then become much closer political unions. It is far from complete however. Never forget that the challenges our civilisation face are now global in scope too. If by some miracle we get through those challenges more or less intact, it looks inevitable that we will expand throughout the solar system too. Would today’s nations, even large ones like USA and China be nothing more than quaint historical footnotes when even the earth is no more than a pale blue dot lost in the evening sky? (Wow, from a poster of food to the solar system via comparative genome tests)

128. Fava Ted

Falafels and Bishop’s finger – Heaven.

129. So Much For Subtlety

112. Dissident

Since I’m working class that is doubtful

So is Cherie Blair I hear.

All areas of this planet are just postcodes now, no nation has enough to stand alone, either in terms of resources or technology.

Which would be interesting if it mattered a damn. No country ever has. So they can be starved out by a prolonged campaign by the rest of the world put together? Not going to happen it is?

david hodd

Re the 4 factual assertions you say you do not make.

No, I did not make all four of them. I made some of them. English can be such a trial can’t it?

I agree you did not claim that <50% of UK population is an "indigenous British minority". What you said was "we are now seeing the indigenous British population becoming a minority". Now the meaning of this assertion is also open to some interpretation.

No it isn’t. It is a simple and clear sentence. It is not open to any interpretation at all.

I believe it means we are approaching the time at which “indigenous British population” forms <50% of the population. Can you explain, with references to the research, when this point is expected to be met? – and perhaps also how those researchers how they defined "indigenous British population".

Someone else has put the date at the middle of this century. I doubt it will take so long. A quarter of British primary school children are non-English speaking. So perhaps it might be as long as 40 years.

I believe many of your arguments in this area are based on significantly flawed reasoning.

Well how about pointing out some flawed reasoning then? It seems to me that you need to believe I am wrong and take the shortest and laziest path you can to a conclusion that I am wrong.

130. margin4error

Gotta love “could I go to saudi and sell Macdonalds” comment.

Yes. Yes you can. Please do. They have MacDonalds in Riyadh.

DAVID HODD: Oh look, this isn’t an argument!
(pause)
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Yes it is!
DAVID HODD: No it isn’t!
(pause)
DAVID HODD: It’s just contradiction!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: No it isn’t!
DAVID HODD: It IS!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: It is NOT!
DAVID HODD: You just contradicted me!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: No I didn’t!
DAVID HODD: You DID!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: No no no!
DAVID HODD: You did just then!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Nonsense!
DAVID HODD: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: No it isn’t!
DAVID HODD: Yes it is!
(pause)
DAVID HODD: I came here for a good argument!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: AH, no you didn’t, you came here for an argument!
DAVID HODD: An argument isn’t just contradiction.
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Well! it CAN be!
DAVID HODD: No it can’t!
DAVID HODD: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: No it isn’t!
DAVID HODD: Yes it is! ’tisn’t just contradiction.
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
DAVID HODD: Yes but it isn’t just saying ‘no it isn’t’.
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Yes it is!
DAVID HODD: No it isn’t!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Yes it is!
DAVID HODD: No it isn’t!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Yes it is!
DAVID HODD: No it ISN’T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: It is NOT!
DAVID HODD: It is!
SO MUCH FOR SUBTLETY: Not at all!
DAVID HODD: It is!

(thanks to montypython.net

132. Dissident

@ 131

Love it! You have identified the most dominant aspect of SMFS’s programming there. The other option I’ve thought of is a hyperactive Amygdyla.

133. Fava Ted

I sometimes visit Welsh nationalist websites and I would caution against visiting Amygdyla. The dislike of ‘white flighters’ is quite strong.

134. Dissident

@ 133

I didn’t know there was a place in Wales called that, obviously I was talking about the pea sized region of the brain that deals with fear response, which seems to be the part of the brain most active in people with a reactionary, rightwing and ultra conservative outlook on life.

@ So Much For Subtlety “A quarter of British primary school children are non-English speaking.” Not quite. I think you may be referring to the proportion who have a language other than English as their mother-tongue. That doesn’t mean they’re non-English speaking.

136. Fava Ted

@ 134.
Sorry. I knew that you meant “Amygdala”.

136. Fava Ted

…but could have meant instead Amygdali, a village in Greece.

http://binged.it/1agMlfq

…I don’t think a welsh place called Amygdyli exists, Felly fawr er graffter will say otherwise.

138. Cwmrhydyceirw

137. Dafyd Hawc
Boutros Boutros.

I wouldn’t shop at Sainsburys anyway if I was hungry I would drop by Allah Snackbar

Ill get my hijab

Anyway both Robinson and Chaudry are as bad as each other

138. Cwmrhydyceirw

Hope my Welsh is ok – apologies if its as much sense as a hungarian phrasebook! I can’t turn to my usual reliable translater anymore. My late mother’s mother tongue is Welsh.

She had rather a lot of experience in teaching English to children who did not speak it at home. Her experience contrasts with the “factoids” casually banded around by Felly Fawr er Graffter (if I have his name right).

141. Cwmrhydyceirw

140.
I’ve seen worse and I have seen amusing errors.

Road Sign near Swansea Docks:

No entry for heavy goods vehicles.
Residential site only
<——————————-
Nid wyf yn y swyddfa ar hyn o bryd.
Anfonwch unrhyw waith i'w gyfieithu.

Translation of Welsh to English:
I am out of the office at the moment.
Please send work for translation.

(I have a photo of the sign)

141. Cwmrhydyceirw – I think I heard about that one on Radio 4.

Have you a better translation for “So Much for Subtlety”?

I’d quite like to capture his pre-occupation with notions of Britishness, by being able to remind him in future what a British language is.

143. Cwmrhydyceirw

The road sign
http://insideoutswansea.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/whats-wrong-with-this-picture.html

English criminals resettled in Wales
http://jacothenorth.net/blog/?p=2379

Sam Tân: Nid yw hyn yn anghytuno
Tomas Tanc: Ydy, mae’n
Sam Tân: Na, nid yw’n
Tomas Tanc: Ydy, mae’n
Sam Tân: Na, nid yw’n

Hwyl am y tro!

144. Choooser

2. Martin Young

…and MOST of them use facebook – the rest use twitter.

145. Choooser

16. Ob

You can have whatever views you like – but burning down mosques is not an expression of free speech.

Also – the EDL are somewhat hypocritical in that they want to have their views heard – but their views include the removal – or ‘deportation’ of people who’s view is that Mohammed is their god and Sharia law is how they want to live.

….but don’t let that affect your clear belief that you are rightand they are wrong – I mean you’re white – so you must be right – right?

146. Cwmrhydyceirw

142.
Dialogues. Fireman Sam, Thomas the Tank Engine

Sam Tân: Nid yw hyn yn anghytuno
Tomas Tanc: Ydy, mae’n
Sam Tân: Na, nid yw’n
Tomas Tanc: Ydy, mae’n
Sam Tân: Na, nid yw’n

Hwyl am y tro!


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