US hate-bloggers banned from UK for EDL rally


4:14 pm - June 26th 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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Both Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer have been banned from entering the UK by the Home Office, after a campaign by the anti-racist group Hope Not Hate.

Both bloggers posted letters to their websites today, from the Home Office, stating that they had been banned from entering.

Letter to Robert Spencer

Letter to Pamela Geller

The duo were invited to speak at a rally by the English Defence League.

The letter stated:

After careful consideration, she [the Home Secretary] personally directed that you should be excluded from the United Kingdom on the grounds that your presence here is not conducive to the public good.

The Home Secretary has reached this decision because you have brought yourself within the scope of the list of unacceptable behaviours by making statements that may foster hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the UK.

Pamela Geller has been exposed as repeatedly publishing false stories about Muslims in order to stir up hatred.

Geller and Spencer also co-founded ‘Stop The Islamization of America’ – which ran ads on American buses that many say referred to Muslims as “savages”

Previous people banned from the UK include Muslim preachers Al-Qaradawi and Zakir Naik.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


It’s not liberal, but who cares?
Geller and Spencer are scumbags and they’re foreign. There’s no obligation to let foreign scumbags into your country.

From Pam’s website:

Britain capitulates to jihad

In a striking blow against freedom, the British government has banned us from entering the country. Muhammad al-Arifi, who has advocated Jew-hatred, wife-beating, and jihad violence, entered the U.K. recently with no difficulty. In not allowing us into the country solely because of our true and accurate statements about Islam, the British government is behaving like a de facto Islamic state. The nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead.

I happened upon this report in the independent about the charming fellow she mentioned that WAS allowed into the UK – He has in the past accused Shias of being responsible for kidnapping, cooking and skinning children before placing their remains outside the family home for their parents to find, and recently called for Muslim women to travel to Syria to offer their bodies to fighters seeking to overthrow Bashar al Assad’s regime.

Joined up Government?

Anyway, I guess it’s a victory, but for whom exactly I don’t know.

People should care – this is a blow against freedom of expression, just as the attempted Wilders ban was.

All three (and Wilders was far worse than Spencer at any rate) spoke against Islam in terms that may have been offensive to some Muslims but were consistently in defence of the kind of values all “liberals” should hold dear: freedom of speech, secularism, equality, etc.

They are a reaction to the attack on these values in our society by Muslim extremists – from Rushdie to Van Gogh to Lee Rigby. They may be loud-mouthed and obsessive but trying to silence them seems like a crude way to stifle discussion – shooting the messenger.

4. Richard Carey

@ 1

“It’s not liberal, but who cares?”

people who hold liberal values, who believe in free speech and in the right to hear what others say. Not you obviously, nor Sunny who campaigned for this ban.

5. the a&e charge nurse

Hate speech is fine so long as it is wrapped up in the right sort of religious rhetoric.

In the current climate I suspect appeasement of islamists by the UK authorities is the main motive for the ban – after all, when islamists get upset we know what they are capable off.

Luckily their bombs do not always detonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_July_2005_London_bombings

I would add that this kind of crude ban will only feed resentment and bitterness – the EDL are the direct result of the failure to address (or even consider) the impact of in-coming cultures on the indigenous working class (other than calling them racists and bigots).

The bourgeois presumably think this strategy will have to do for the moment – shut down the discussion and alienate the powerless – but it is a sticking plaster: the wound will become infected and worse could result.

This wll simply feed the EDL’s sense of victimisation. National and racial identity will not go away (the latter a consequence, ironically, of multiculturalism and the kind of “brown” speak Sunny used to be so keen on – blowback has led to the sense, no matter how absurd, by some among the white working class that they are now a minority) and there is the very real possibility that in the future we could see Ulster-style violence, assisted by moronic policies like segregated schooling.

It’s like watching an entire society dig its own grave.

This is the quote the UK used to ban Spencer:

“…it [Islam] is a religion and a belief system that mandates warfare against unbelievers for the purpose of establishing a societal model that is absolutely incompatible with Western society because media and general government unwillingness to face the sources of Islamic terrorism these things remain largely unknown.”

Can anyone name a part that ‘incites terrorism’ or promotes hate?

Would anyone be banned or exported if they said the same regarding Christianity?

8. the a&e charge nurse

High level moves have been a-foot for some time to stop fantasists from having their religious feelings hurt ……… poor luvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gki50QhqunU

Here’s some more stuff about Arifi

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24432.0

Someone invoked Farrakhan, and that would be a parallel worth probing, given that consistency is so important.

10. So Much For Subtlety

Geller and Spencer also co-founded ‘Stop The Islamization of America’ – which ran ads on American buses that many say referred to Muslims as “savages”

But the ads did not refer to Muslims as terrorists. It is sad to see LC implicitly endorse this lie. They referred to terrorists as savages.

So either the site is endorsing a campaign of lies or it really does think all Muslims are terrorists. Which is it I wonder?

Entry into Britain is something we should control. And control completely. It is our right to allow or not allow people in as we see fit. It is a pity that our government has abdicated this resposibility by allowing every single two bit would-be mass murderer to immigrate here. And by refusing entry to two perfectly harmless people who merely say things unpopular with the Metropolitan Islington based elites.

Ordinarily, I would be all in favour of keeping Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, among numerous other people including Mohammad Al-Arefe, out of the United Kingdom.

But in the present climate, by all means let in Spencer, at least. He makes great play of his Melkite affiliation and of his Middle Eastern roots. Let him be asked, therefore, about the treatment of Arab Christians in general, and of Melkites in particular, by the invaders of and insurgents in Syria. Let him be asked about the treatment of Arab Christians in general, and of Melkites in particular, in the Holy Land.

He might also be asked to explain those situations to the undoubted star of last week’s Question Time, Melanie Phillips. She complains, not without cause, that in 1982 a colleague on The Guardian referred to the war between Israel and Lebanon as “your war”. Yet in 2013, she left us in no doubt what she meant by “Western interests”. She referred to Israel as “us”. Twice.

It was very sad to watch. How long has she been doing this? And yet she insulted the audience. She is losing it. She may already have lost it. And I have defended her in the past. Not because I agreed with her, but because of the explicit misogyny and implicit anti-Semitism of some of her more abusive critics. I still think that on many domestic policies, hers is an important voice. As she demonstrated against Russell Brand when the topic for discussion was drugs.

In relation to Syria, she also talked about a current actor called “the Soviet Union”. There can be no denying that there are those for whom this one has the lot: the chance to attack all five of Iran, the beating heart of pan-Arabism, the defenders of Lebanon’s southern frontier, the ancient indigenous Christians of the Levant (and of Iran), and the power against which they themselves harbour an ancestral bitterness which during the Cold War became bound up with Trotskyism and thus made a doubly important contribution to the emergence of neoconservatism.

Thus did the Ramshackle Nasty Empire, which was always going to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, and which was never a viable or even an aspirant military threat to the West, become the Evil Empire, like something out of Star Wars.

Those overlapping hostilities towards Iran, pan-Arabism, the Great Lebanese Experiment, Christianity both in the region and in general, and Russia, are most emphatically not “Western interests”. Those who hold such attitudes are most emphatically not “us”. Are they, Robert Spencer? Well, are they? Just this once, come over here and tell us.

“We’ve got your back,” Brian Kilmeade of Fox News assured “great guy” Tommy Robinson of the English Defence League, an organisation most certainly not dedicated to the defence of the English language. Tommy Robinson is a violent convict. He can presumably now expect a column on The Times, which would at least raise the tone from Oliver Kamm.

@kilmeade then tweeted the following: “Englishdefenseleague.org check out Tommy Robinson and his mission to rid brit ian of muslim extremists @foxandfriends” Rather amusingly, his use of the American spelling of “defence” means that his link does not work.

Fox News ought never to have been granted a British broadcasting licence. And it is owned by a man whom no civilised country would permit to hold any media interest whatever, but who effectively controls even such remaining corners of the British media as he does not formally own.

There is now more than enough pretext to rectify the first. Leading, sooner rather than later, to the rectification of the second.

Some of us have been pointing out for years the ties binding the EDL, the Tea Party, the racist secular Far Right in Israel, the London neoconservative think tank circuit (with its array of parliamentary passes, of columns and blogs for nominally non-Murdoch titles, and so on), and Rupert Murdoch.

This was no conspiracy. It has always been entirely out in the open. It still is. It ought to be unbelievable, but of course it is not, that the Minister with direct responsibility for broadcasting is Ed Vaizey of the Henry Jackson Society.

Then there is the role of his HJS comrade, Michael Gove, as Murdoch’s man in the Cabinet. On Gove’s coming down from Oxford, the Conservative Research Department rejected him for employment on the grounds that it could find no evidence that he was political at all, still less a committed Conservative. Yet look at him now.

Oh, and then there is Jeremy Hunt. Not to mention David Cameron himself, who brought Andy Coulson into the heart of government, and who “even rode the horse” of Rebekah Brooks.

On 12th June, I emailed tv.licensing@ofcom.org.uk to demand that Fox News be stripped of its British licence. Please do the same, and please spread the word.

Stupid banning people. Very counter productive. It implies freedom of speech is fragile when it just shouldn’t be. It should be a robust, strong thing we are proud of. While we aren’t shooting each other we should speak.

14. Richard Carey

@ David Lindsay,

“Fox News ought never to have been granted a British broadcasting licence.”

Someone else who thinks he has a right to decide what others hear.

Not at all, Richard Carey.

For example, rather convoluted circumstances prevented my attendance at the People’s Assembly Against Austerity, but in the absence of Press TV, there was presumably no television coverage whatever.

On 9th November 2011, Press TV reported an enormous student demonstration in London while the BBC and Sky News refused to do so, instead pretending that it was not happening. At least on air. There might have been something on the websites if you looked hard enough, but you would have had to have looked very hard indeed. Soon afterwards, Press TV alone reported an attack on the Iranian Embassy in London.

And soon after that, Press TV was stripped of its British broadcasting licence, ostensibly because it was subject to overseas editorial control. Well, Fox News is subject to no British editorial control whatever; the American station is simply broadcast simultaneously in this country, and that is that. Yet it recently endorsed the EDL, both on air and on Twitter.

Press TV, although obviously based in London at least in part (look who is on it), has certainly never interfered directly in our political life like that, still less has it ever endorsed a terrorist organisation on our soil. The Islamist terrorists here are in fact the ones whom we support in Iran, the likes of Jundullah. Those are also the ones whom both we and Fox News support in Syria.

The matter of Fox News and the EDL is now in hand. Watch this space.

And I suppose, even expect, that there might have been something about the People’s Assembly on Russia Today. That largely London-based and famously Anglophile station has two million or more viewers in the United Kingdom. It has been known massively to increase the British parliamentary by-election votes of parties and politicians whom it has covered, not as interference, but as honest and balanced reportage.

Last week, Max Keiser, a presenter on Russia Today, was on This Week. On the BBC. It is good to see the fringe-ideology-peddling state broadcaster of a collapsed imperial power slowly joining the global media mainstream.

16. Richard Carey

@ David Lindsay,

“And soon after that, Press TV was stripped of its British broadcasting licence”

Yes, and I was against that too. I’m consistent you see.

“Geller and Spencer also co-founded ‘Stop The Islamization of America’ – which ran ads on American buses that many say referred to Muslims as “savages””

It referred to jihadists who want to destroy Israel as savages – which personally seems fair comment and not in any sane mind hate speech.

Of course, if you start from the assumption that all Muslims are jihadists who want to destroy Israel, then do come right out and say it. Personally I have a higher opinion of Muslims in general.

But at last you have shown your true colours, Sunny. Your lofty insistence, maintained for years, that hate preachers who advocate violence against Jews, gay people and women should, unfortunately (cue crocodile tears), be allowed into this country, has now been shown up as calculating hypocrisy all along by your uncritical support now of the banning of people who, however strident they may, have never yet actually advocated violence.

You’ve shown you think it’s more objectionable to slag off Islam than to advocate violence against Jews or gay people. Thanks for confirming what many will have long suspected.

We can no doubt look forward to a sudden revival in your absolutist free speech ‘principles’ the next time Qaradawi, Salah or suchlike wish to enter the country.

You should rename this site ‘Liberal Hypocrisy’. Except that you’re not really even a real liberal, are you?

i wish Sunny would just get rid of that newcastle under lyme picture.
i live here and trust me, the people you see there do not and never will represent us.

19. the a&e charge nurse

[17] ‘Your lofty insistence, maintained for years, that hate preachers who advocate violence against Jews, gay people and women should, unfortunately (cue crocodile tears), be allowed into this country’ – I’m afraid critical faculties are lost once liberal minds are confronted by the the quran and all that flows from it.

For them islam is like kryptonite, exerting a strange power which can cause normally intelligent people to fear the everyday bacon-butty, for example.
I see in Tower Hamlets even getting a glass of vino is becoming something of a challenge – apparently a small, innocuous Italian deli (opposite a mosque) could be accused of driving up levels of crime and racism ……… because the owner made an application for an alcohol licence – perhaps I am just dreaming?
http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/labour-response-to-lutfurs-3m-faith-grants-and-a-mosque-says-an-italian-deli-causes-violence-and-racism-in-shoreditch/

Geller and Spencer also co-founded ‘Stop The Islamization of America’ – which ran ads on American buses that many say referred to Muslims as “savages”

Ok, but what did the ads say?

21. john reid

what 10,13 and 20 said

The problem is that “excluding extremists under the Unacceptable Behaviour policy” means somebody (the Home Secretary) has to decide what is unacceptable.

And that is, necessarily, a subjective judgement giving a politician the power to determine what views may or may not be expressed.

Can you really not see a problem here?

Littleox @18, would you give-over about that Newcastle-Under-Lime thing. Nobody thinks that all people who come from there support the EDL. Just those in the picture. And anyway don’t you know? Sunny doesn’t bother reading comments under the OP much. It’s all a bit beneath him.

When I said who really cares if these idiots get banned, I kind of mean because discussion about it is pointless. No one is listening to each other, and twat groups like Hope Not Hate will just squeal on about fascists and ”Nazis” forever, because they really get off on that.

Personally I wouldn’t have cared about Spencer and Geller coming over, because who really would have noticed? But we’ve got these anti-fascist muppets who will just shout and scream untill people get banned, and if no one had ever heard of Geller and Spencer, HnH and the SWP-type left will make sure everyone does.

The joke is, that we make a song and a dance about foreign ”hate preachers” coming over here to stirr up trouble – Sunny mentioned Qaradawi on Twitter yesterday.

Sunny Hundal ?@sunny_hundal 15h @mePadraigReidy @DAaronovitch Anyone here written a piece saying its a bad idea to ban Qaradawi, Naik etc?

But we’ve got thousands of Qaradawis as British citizens now, so what would it matter really if the real one came over to see his fans? He has his European headquarters in Dublin even. It’s called the European Council for Fatwa and Research
Any Irish people complaining about this would get called facists and Nazis though I think.

I thought this was a bit funny the other day in the New Statesman. By Sunny Hundal.
The Left should mobilise against religious extremism as well as the far right.

I think he meant only the most high profile of mad Islamists like Anjem Choudhary’s group. But not the mainstream Islamists and salafis who are much more commonplace within the Muslim community.
They get pretty much ignored by the anti-fascist left.
By this website particularly.

what pagar said

According to MDL, UAF and HnH everyones a fascist expect them

27. Me Myself And I

It’s wrong to hate someone because of their religious views nationality or colour of skin. I dont dislike these people but neither do I support these people. I am not a sihk muslim or believer in there religion as I am a christian. But I dont go around causing problems and killing people because of a strong belief. On the contary I would listen to these people even though I dont believe or feel any where close to them I would treat them with respect.

“Sunny mentioned Qaradawi on Twitter yesterday.

Sunny Hundal ?@sunny_hundal 15h @mePadraigReidy @DAaronovitch Anyone here written a piece saying its a bad idea to ban Qaradawi, Naik etc?”

Sunny is, typically, being either disngenuous or thick there. There is no equivalence. Neither Geller nor Spencer have ever advocated violence. Qaradawi and Naik do so repeatedly.

Sunny roudly opposed banning numerous Muslims who HAD advocated violence, and now supports banning a couple of Jews who hadn’t. Fancy that.

29. Guardianista

Sunny only wants to ban white people, haven’t you noticed.

Although I disagree with Pam Geller and Robert Spencer and think they are Islamophobic hatemongers, I wasn’t sure that they should be prevented from coming to the UK. However, the EDL supporters seem to be so gullible, from what I’ve seen on Facebook and Twitter, that I can see a good argument for preventing anyone using Lee Rigby’s death to stir up more trouble. In the past few weeks there have been several stories about Muslim attacks posted on Twitter, all of which have been denied by the police but have been used by the EDL and related groups to wind up their supporters. I’ve seen many screenshots from official EDL group forums calling for mosques to be burned and Muslims to be attacked. Pam Geller, in particular, posts all sorts of unsubstantiated rubbish on her blog and the far right either believe it or choose to believe it because it supports their agenda.

30.

Pamela Geller has never advocated violence but seems to me to be a rabble-rouser who can do no good and possibly harm here. I am still left angry that meanwhile some of us are meant to put up with the entry of hate preachers who actually advocate our murder. Making a point of Geller is a slap in the face for us. Those who celebrate her banning have a duty, if they have any conscience or decency, to press urgently for foreign Islamist hate preachers to be banned or turfed out.

But Sunny and co never will, because not very deep down they actually don’t really mind them one little bit. It will all be about their freedom of speech and damn those of us whom Naik, Qaradawi and co pronounce death sentence on. Sunny has been giggling about that on Twitter, and the rest of the ‘progressive’ ‘antifascist’ liberal left have been equally shameful in their indifference. Expect them to go back to sleep now, content that all the bad people have been kept out.

Would Marx have been banned:

The unbeliever is “harby”, ie the enemy. Islam proscribes the nation of unbelievers and creates a state of permanent hostility between Muslims and infidels. In this sense, the pirate ships of the Barbary States were the holy fleet of Islam. How, then, can the presence of Christian subjects of the Porte in the kingdom agree with the Koran?

– [Die Kriegserklärung –
Zur Geschichte der orientalischen Frage]

But Sunny and co never will, because not very deep down they actually don’t really mind them one little bit. It will all be about their freedom of speech and damn those of us whom Naik, Qaradawi and co pronounce death sentence on. Sunny has been giggling about that on Twitter

He may get away with it in this country as its run with a similar mind set, the rest of the world takes sympathizing with extremists and his kind of attitude very seriously, he will be on the relevant lists.

34. john reid

If you enjoy banning freedom of speech as much as this article Implies, Maybe this blog should be recalled Illiberal conspiracy.

If you can – its time to leave. The “riots” we have seen are nothing to those we will get when the majority finally snap, and its not that far away. Sometime in the next 10 years the public disorder of the past will look like a picnic.

And the blame, pur political class. Labours unfettered immigration policy, to gerrymander England, and Labours – [carried on by the current lot] plan to make the majority less equal in law that any minority with any grievance real or as is usual invented – always resulting in political or financial profit.

We live in a country where a woman can rant about immigration on a tube train and get locked up, but people can call for the extermination of Jews, deaths of British troops, execution of homosexuals, stoning of rape victims for adultery and nothing happens, despite TV documentaries and complaint. But if whitey complains about any of it, whitey is a racist islamaphobe who gets his/her career destroyed and locked up behind bars. Time to leave…run far and run fast”

Sadly true.

36. Just Visiting

@29

“Sunny only wants to ban white people, haven’t you noticed”.

Don’t be a sap. Louis Farrakhan was banned from entering the UK. The last time I checked, Farrakhan was an African-American.

38. the a&e charge nurse

[31] this article asks, ‘What is it that leads apologists and liberal writers to nevertheless consider that Islam shouldn’t have to answer these charges’ (propensity to violence, homophobia, chauvenism, etc) – while pointing out – “Islamophobia” is justified only if you adapt a bizarre definition of the word that is satisfied merely if the religion is held up to scrutiny.
http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2013/04/new-atheism-should-be-able-criticise-islam-without-being-accused-islamophobia

Since such questions are never properly addressed by certain liberals, and we can only speculate why this should be, I guess we will continue to hear instead a steady stream of counter pieces on the EDL, or Pam Geller, or whatever form of distraction therapy happens to be flavour of the week.

39. Guardianista

#36 And Sunny campaigned for his banning did he?

You div.

40. the a&e charge nurse

To me it seems self evident that, ‘The politics of the pro-Islamist Left is a politics of betrayal. It’s a betrayal of the dissenters and victims of Islamism but also of the very principles that the Left has historically defended (from social justice, egalitarianism, secularism, universalism, and human liberation, including from religion). This Left uses multiculturalism, charges of racism and Islamophobia, and antiimperialism, amongst others to defend the far-Right political Islamic movement’ (p57).
http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/SidingWithOpressor_Web.pdf

Presumably once the mantra of ‘racism and Islamophobia’ is said 3 times it becomes a sort of truth, and in the current climate it is perhaps not surprising that the odd sacrifice must be offered to appease the chaterrati, or heavy handed government officials.

Haha somne lefty walks up to the edl and punches one in the face then walks away without any notice from the police but the edl are arrested for walking down the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEI0TKkX9_o

Cant even walk down the street and have fairness of law now, not so long left.

42. Just Visiting

Wonder if Suny would disagree with Peter Tatchell’s criticism of some Universities for making no effort to ban speakers who have provably advocated violence… Islamic speakers…:

Reading University colludes with far-right extremist Muslim Society

#36

“Sunny only wants to ban white people, haven’t you noticed”.

Don’t be a sap. Louis Farrakhan was banned from entering the UK. The last time I checked, Farrakhan was an African-American.”

Show us where Sunny supported banning Farakhan, you fool.

“Wonder if Suny would disagree with Peter Tatchell’s criticism of some Universities for making no effort to ban speakers who have provably advocated violence… Islamic speakers…”

Well, let’s put it this way: Sunny is a ‘principled’ supporter of free speech who just happens to have invariably impartially supported the ‘rights’ of Islamists how advocate murder, while equally happening also to… oh sod it, support the banning of anti-Islamists such as Geller and Spencer.

Standards? Make Sunny’s a double…

This is a very telling post which offers a taste of some of Robert Spencer’s debating techniques

http://homoeconomicusnet.wordpress.com/2013/06/29/my-conversation-with-robert-spencer-via-twitter/

46. John Reid

What 42 said

As many have noticed in the comments, there seems to be an obvious double standard here: We must respect the rights to free speech and free movement of Muslim extremists who want to attack the West in the name of Islam; but we don’t have to respect the rights of people who criticise those same extremists.

In fact, it looks like there are no effective limits to what one can say if one is a Muslim attacking the West, whereas the limits placed on westerners rhetorically attacking Muslims are significantly more severe.

Another interesting facet of the debate is that while Geller and Spencer are arguing (reasonably, so far as that goes) that Islamism is incompatible with western liberalism, western liberals describe this argument as ipso facto illiberal.

On the face of it, that doesn’t seem to make sense. If Islamism is incompatible with liberalism, then why are liberals quicker to criticise critics of Islamism than Islamists themselves?

49. Just Visiting

44 Sarah

I dont’t see what your link is saying.

It doesn’t state explicitly how this Twitter thread with Spencer started: who started it, by saying what, and the discussion on both sides after that.

Without that detail – it could well be cherry-picked to throw Spencer in a bad light – we can’t tell.

Maryam Namazie has indeed written ‘Stop the Genocide Perpetrated by the Israeli…’ – so on what basis can Spencer be criticised for saying she said that?

@43
“Show us where Sunny supported banning Farakhan, you fool”.

Irrelevant. You’re whining about Spencer and Geller being banned but haven’t bothered to recall all of those who have been previously banned from the UK, though I seriously doubt that Farrakhan is your cup of tea as he’s the leader of the Nation of Islam. Your use of the free speech argument is highly selective to say the least.

Dude, it’s you who’s the fool.


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