Excl: Libdem resigns from controversial think-tank Henry Jackson Society


2:54 pm - June 5th 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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A top Lib Dem MP has resigned from the Henry Jackson Society (HJS) after questions were raised about comments made by senior executives from the controversial think-tank.

In an email passed on to Liberal Conspiracy, Tom Brake MP, also the Deputy Leader of the House of Commons, said: “I am contacting the HJS to ask to be taken off their Advisory Council.”

The HJS has come under sustained criticism recently for remarks made by senior executives Douglas Murray and Alan Mendoza.

Douglas Murray complained in March 2013 that London had “become a foreign country” because white Britons were a minority in 23 of 33 London boroughs.

He added:

We long ago reached the point where the only thing white Britons can do is to remain silent about the change in their country. Ignored for a generation, they are expected to get on, silently but happily, with abolishing themselves, accepting the knocks and respecting the loss of their country.

This isn’t the first time Murray has been criticised for controversial comments.

At an event in 2011 he said of the English Defence League:

If you’re ever going to have a grassroots response for non-Muslims to Islamism, that would be how you’d want it, surely.

He went on to praise Robert Spencer, author of Jihad Watch (an anti-Muslim website), who was recently raising legal funds for the English Defence League’s leader Tommy Robinson.

The Henry Jackson Society’s chief executive Alan Mendoza expressed similar views in March 2013 at a US conference of the lobby group AIPAC.

Labour MPs have been urged to cut their ties with the Henry Jackson Society by a growing number of voices – most recently by Left Foot Forward editor James Bloodworth.

Eleven Labour MPs are still associated with this organisation. How, one wonders, do the views of the Henry Jackson Society sit with one-nation Labour?

Lib Dem MP Tom Brake has become the first MP to distance himself from the organisation, but may not be the last.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


1. John Reid

Funnily enough there were quite a lot of ethnic looking members at the HJ meeting yesterday at parliament

This is blasphemous talk! Extremism in Islam has eroded our society and is continuing to do so in a gruesome way! Britain truly HAS LOST HERSELF and the only shed of dignity and perseverance and true DELIVERY from this hellish deceit is being forged by the Henry Jackson Society. I laud them and will continue to support their brilliant work and efforts!

3. So Much For Subtlety

He added:

We long ago reached the point where the only thing white Britons can do is to remain silent about the change in their country. Ignored for a generation, they are expected to get on, silently but happily, with abolishing themselves, accepting the knocks and respecting the loss of their country.

Interesting to see the Lib-Dems prove his point.

Whatever you think of his politics he is obviously right that the Left will hound anyone who objects to what has happened in Britain into as complete destruction as they can manage. And so silence is the only option.

4. Will Shaw

Sunny,

Have you read the reports produced by HJS? If you did so you would soon discover that the think tank is not “hard-right”, and simply quoting Douglas Murray from years ago proves little about the organisation overall.

Also, isn’t it the case that HJS supports humanitarian intervention as a concept, when that sort of thing is generally loathed by the UK far-right?

5. the a&e charge nurse

After the scourge of christianity we now have an imported religion that is far, far worse.

I just do not understand why so many lefties have a blindspot when it comes to islam’s violent chauvinism, nor do I understand how any thinking person can take any of it’s tenets seriously – they are man made stories, and obviously so.

Islamic societies have failed economically, and are antithetical to liberal aspirations given their problematic relationship with women, gays and above all reason.

Certain liberals start wetting themselves whenever these perennial failings are highlighted yet I have never come across one who has championed a society run along such principles – why not, eh, are they conflicted between what they REALLY think, and what they actually say?

“Top” ?!!

7. ex-Labour voter

What was he doing in that vile organisation anyway?

I did not realise that so many Labour MPs were in it, including Margaret Beckett.

8. Tony Blur

The only person who thinks Tom Brake is a “top” Lib Dem MP is Tom Brake. I’m frankly disappointed that the HJS doesn’t do the sensible thing and expel Labour and Lib Dem MPs.

It’s an organisation named after a hardline supporter of Japanese-American internment. What do you expect?

10. organic cheeseboard

in fairness to the labour/lib dem people involved, they weren’t really to know that this ‘centrist and Atlanticist’ think tank has revealed its true colours in the last couple of years and is now a playground for the whims (and friends) of Murray and Mendoza.

even more worrying is that Murray, having ‘moderated’ his views from ‘send lal the Muslims back where they came from’ – something he is on record saying and has only recently retracted, having previously claimed ‘misrepresentation’, is still of the opinion tat all Islamism in Britain would stop if we, er, deported all teh illegals.

11. organic cheeseboard

They’re currently advertising three very well-paid jobs. would be interesting to see who actually funds them.

In addition to this, it’s always worth reminding everyone of their top-quality ‘democratic’ views – when the Arab Spring started, the HJS stood behind Mubarak.

12. Richard Carey

Will any lefties deal with the point @5 by the A&E Charge Nurse? I won’t hold my breath.

Anyone who was happy to sit alongside Perle and Kristol but thinks that Murray is beyond the pale has very odd moral convictions.

“In addition to this, it’s always worth reminding everyone of their top-quality ‘democratic’ views – when the Arab Spring started, the HJS stood behind Mubarak.”

Because that’s worked out all hunky-dory now, hasn’t it?

@5 A&E

Historically Islamic countries were once open and enlightened compared to the contemporary Western Europe. It seems to me that singling out modern Islam as the source of all bad is missing the point; around the globe it’s religious conservatism in general that is so very damaging.

16. A real liberal

Tom Brake is not a top MP and his resignation due to pressure from a pathetic smear campaign proves just that. Interestingly, the author of this piece has a personal grievance against Murray who successfully sued him for libel. Hundal does not seem to have a problem with Ben White who has ‘explained’ his comments regarding “understanding Antisemitism” or Mehdi Hasan who ‘explained’ his comments regarding “the people of no intellegence” (the non believers).

The hint is in the name of this blog. Less liberal, more conspiracy.

@4

“Also, isn’t it the case that HJS supports humanitarian intervention as a concept, when that sort of thing is generally loathed by the UK far-right”?

It depends on what you mean by “humanitarian intervention”. No? Wasn’t the war in Iraq justified in such a way?

For all the info on HJS (who are a neocon outfit), Powerbase is your friend.
http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Henry_Jackson_Society

@10

More fool them.

@12

What’s stopping your from dealing with it or are you trying to make the spurious claim that all “lefties” are the same?

‘Also, isn’t it the case that HJS supports humanitarian intervention as a concept, when that sort of thing is generally loathed by the UK far-right?’

It isn’t really the case. The HJS hasn’t posted anything about Syria for two months. Murray has come out against intervention in Syria, though Mendoza is in favour.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8900071/the-time-to-do-something-is-past/

The HJS has largely stopped talking about humanitarian intervention to devote most of its energy to the anti-Muslim campaign at home.

21. A real liberal

Mendoza and Murray have different views on this issue? If so, surely the organisation isn’t as monolithic as it is being portrayed. Interesting….

Murray and Mendoza agree that there are too many Muslims and immigrants in Britain and Europe. When he was repeatedly pressed to given an opinion, Mendoza also pointedly refused to disagree with Murray’s view that there are too many black- and brown-skinned people in Britain.

We long ago reached the point where the only thing white Britons can do is to remain silent about the change in their country. Ignored for a generation, they are expected to get on, silently but happily, with abolishing themselves, accepting the knocks and respecting the loss of their country.

Is this really controversial? I don’t think it is. I think it’s obvious. The fact that the obvious is “controversial” crimethink just goes to show how far down the Orwellian rabbit-hole we’ve traveled …

24. Charlieman

@16. A real liberal: “Tom Brake is not a top MP…”

Tom Brake is a Privy Counsellor and Deputy Leader of the House of Commons. Those qualifications may not make him “top” of any chart but imply that he is considered a level headed bloke by parliamentarians of all parties.


Thanks to Marko for his contributions to this thread.

I just do not understand why so many lefties have a blindspot when it comes to islam’s violent chauvinism, nor do I understand how any thinking person can take any of it’s tenets seriously – they are man made stories, and obviously so.

It doesn’t make much sense if you take lefties at their word. But if you allow for tactical, ends justify the means type thinking, then it makes a lot of sense. The problem is that membership of the dominant culture has a material impact on people’s lives — i.e., they have “privilege”. This is unfair and exclusionary, and so of course it is necessary to destroy that culture as a thing of influence. In the desired end-state, being white British or Asian Muslim will have no effect, will mean nothing. But in the meantime, we can use Islam or minorities to weaken the influence of the dominant culture. Eventually, the left will come for Islam, must come for Islam, as it came for Christianity, but there is work to be done yet ..

vimothy @23, that quote you did there from Douglas Murray is interesting, even though I’d say I’d have to take against it.
But the thing is though, that we will never get a real debate about such sentiment – even if only to pull it apart one way or another. We just ”don’t do” discussions like that in Britain.
The argument would be that to even debate such issues would give them respectability. Indeed Marko Attila Hoare writes in Left Foot Forward:

Such words, one might expect, should place their author beyond the pale of respectable political opinion, in the sole company of UKIP and the rest of the fringe anti-immigration right.

And that’s about all you’ll get with the left. Anyone who disagrees with them is a fascist or a ”Nazi”.

I don’t like Douglas Murray. He looks a bit like George Osborne, that upper class toff look that this website so loves to hate and mock. And I disagree with his view overall I would say …. but you can’t deny it all. There are things that liberals and lefties don’t like that just are true unfortunately. The general publics out there just aren’t as liberal and right-on as the people who write blogs like this.

Ask people from Eastern Europe if they would like to develop the kind of diversity we have in England and a majority will probably just say no. People in Slovenia probably don’t want Ljubljana to become like Camberwell. I’ve only asked a few (east Europeans) that kind of question and they have said no anyway.
”It couldn’t happen” I was told.

Marko Attila Hoare knows the former Yugoslavia very well, so maybe he could tell us what people from there would think of their countries becoming host to new populations from Asia and Africa. Could they be persuaded by the kinds of arguments we use – like how diversity makes things far better actually, not worse, and that being monocultural is actually not the best way to be.

I think it’s a pity that we can’t debate Douglas Murray and the HJS and let the better arguments prevail. Lefties won’t do it.

27. A true liberal

@22 where do they ‘agree’ with this statement? Please show where Murray and Mendoza have said “there are too many Muslims and immigrants in Britain and Europe”? Murray may have spoken of London as a foreign city in a recent article but he certainly didn’t say what you have accused him of – where does he call for repatriation or removal of immigrants as opposed to better integration of them? And why Mendoza is being dragged into the same accusation by virtue of not answering a question seems doubly weird. Again, where is his statement saying “there are too many black- and brown-skinned people in Britain’? I understand you have grievances with these two which you have aired on several occasions, but you don’t have to resort to making things up in order to make your point.

It’s rather petty now I’m afraid.

I have quoted in detail the anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant views of Murray and Mendoza:

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/05/labours-links-with-the-anti-immigration-right/

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/the-henry-jackson-society-and-douglas-murray/

I’m going to spell this out yet again. This is what Murray said:

‘To study the results of the latest census is to stare at one unalterable conclusion: mass immigration has altered our country completely. It has become a radically different place, and London has become a foreign country. In 23 of London’s 33 boroughs ‘white Britons’ are now in a minority… We long ago reached the point where the only thing white Britons can do is to remain silent about the change in their country. Ignored for a generation, they are expected to get on, silently but happily, with abolishing themselves, accepting the knocks and respecting the loss of their country. ‘Get over it. It’s nothing new. You’re terrible. You’re nothing. For what it is worth, it seems to me that the vindictiveness with which the concerns of white British people, and the white working and middle class in particular, have been met by politicians and pundits alike is a phenomenon in need of serious and swift attention.’

Murray is saying that ‘London has become a foreign country’ because ‘white Britons’ are a minority in 23 out of 33 London boroughs. In other words, the problems is not just that there are too many immigrants or foreigners in London, but that there are too many people who are not ‘white Britons’. He therefore identifies the problem category as including black, brown and yellow British citizens as well as British citizens whose family origins are from outside the UK (for example from Ireland or Eastern Europe – people like my mother or Ed Miliband). He is saying that the ‘white Britons’ are ‘abolishing themselves’ and ‘accepting the loss of their country’ by remaining silent in the face of the growth of the number of black, brown and yellow people and non-British white people in their country – irrespective of whether these people have British citizenship or not. That the presence of increasing numbers of black, brown and yellow people and continental European or Irish whites represents a threat to the very national existence of the ‘white Britons’.

So no, he isn’t calling for greater integration, because no amount of integration will ever turn a black Briton into a white Briton.

If you want to go on playing dumb, and refusing to acknowledge that this is an overtly racist statement, then there’s really nothing I can do about that.

This is what Murray has said about Muslim immigration in Europe:

‘It is late in the day, but Europe still has time to turn around the demographic time-bomb which will soon see a number of our largest cities fall to Muslim majorities. It has to. All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop. In the case of a further genocide such as that in the Balkans, sanctuary would be given on a strictly temporary basis. This should also be enacted retrospectively. Those who are currently in Europe having fled tyrannies should be persuaded back to the countries which they fled from once the tyrannies that were the cause of their flight have been removed.’

And this is what Mendoza has said about Muslim immigration in Europe, as quoted by the Washington Jewish Week:

‘Immigration is also a reason for rising anti-Israel feelings [in Europe]. In 1998, 3.2 percent of Spain was foreign-born. In 2007, that percent had jumped to 13.4 percent, Mendoza said. In cities such as London, Paris and Copenhagen, 10 percent of residents are Muslim.’

‘The European Muslim population has doubled in the past 30 years and is predicted to double again by 2040.’

‘For all the benefits that immigration has brought, it has been difficult for European countries to absorb immigrants into their society given their failure to integrate newcomers. Regardless of their political views, Muslims in Europe will likely speak out against Israel whenever any Middle Eastern news breaks, just as they will against India in the Kashmir dispute. Their voices are heard well above the average Europeans, who tend not to speak out Mendoza said, adding that the Muslim immigrants do this with full knowledge that they would not be allowed to speak out like that in many Middle Eastern countries.’

30. A true liberal

How are those two comments even similar other than the fact they both mention Muslims in Europe? Its pretty desperate. Mehdi
Hasan spoke about the problem of Antisemitism amongst Muslim community. Is this a ‘check your privilege’ situation? Can a non Muslim not utter this?? Where has Mendoza said anything controversial?

Again, where is his statement saying “there are too many black- and brown-skinned people in Britain’? I would like to see it! If you can show it to me I too will boycott HjS. If you can’t, I assume you have broken libel laws.

I suggest for your sake you just move on.

31. A true liberal

Just re read Mendoza comments. Very confused as to how they are controversial in the slightest. I’m pretty sure this is a personal grievance that occupies too much of your time and energy, to your detriment. HjS event last week was packed and people waiting outside. Quite a few MPs there too. .

32. organic cheeseboard

it’s also worth making clear just how useuless Murray’s thinking actually is, on Islamism. His solution?

It is not hard. Deport illegals, lock up radicals, tell the sympathisers the game is up, and fight not for a draw but for victory against this enemy.

I’m not sure how ‘deporting illegals’ would stop the problem – there doesn’t seem to be much of a link. ‘lock up radicals’ – on what grounds? He never says. ‘tell the sympathisers the game is up’ – one of the most meaningless statements I’ve ever read (and surely they ARE ‘radicals’ anyway?). and ‘fight’ – how? He never says. Because ultimately for him and his ilk this isn’t actually about terrorism but about bashing his enemies, ie lefties.

@26

“And that’s about all you’ll get with the left. Anyone who disagrees with them is a fascist or a ”Nazi”.

That’s the sort of hysterical tosh that I expect to read on the comments threads of Telegraph blogs.

“Ask people from Eastern Europe if they would like to develop the kind of diversity we have in England and a majority will probably just say no”.

You’re comparing apples with oranges here.They don’t have the same history of immigration and, furthermore, they have histories of deeply-ingrained anti-Semitism and anti-Ziganism. I guess that sort of escaped your attention. No?

“I’ve only asked a few (east Europeans) that kind of question and they have said no anyway.
”It couldn’t happen” I was told”.

So not a scientific study then. What’s your point anyway?

Buddyhell, I looked on your website and see you wrote approvingly of how the UKIP leader was harassed and harangued on his recent visit to Scotland. Called a fascist and told to get back to England, so I wasn’t making such things up. People like you are always calling people fascists. Read this.

You’re comparing apples with oranges here.They don’t have the same history of immigration and…

And neither did we have it till after world war two.
Yes we had Jews and Huguenots …and Irish too and Somali seafarers in some of or port towns, but not in the same way that started with the Windrush generation.
Personally I’m all for a bit of immigration. My own parents came from Ireland and my school was quite multi-cultural – or multi-racial anyway. I thought it worked pretty well. A few miles north in Lambeth (and Brixton) things weren’t so rosy in the 1970s, but we saw little of it in Croydon as people tended to go to their own bourough’s schools, and Croydon was still more middle class than Lambeth back then. Later waves of immigration have changed parts of Croydon very noticeably. That and migration of ethnic minorities out of places like Brixton south into Croydon. I guess this is the kind of thing that Douglas Murray laments. One culture gets replaced by a newer more hybrid fusion of cultures. What you think of the new modernity is a very subjective and personal thing. Some people love it and others don’t. Personally I don’t like certain things about the new ”urban” culture. The street cultuure that you can see so clearly if you walk around the Croydon shopping area on a Saturday afternoon. The common denominator of the popular culture is that it’s very dumbed down. The lingua franca is that Ali G street way of talking, where McDonald’s is for the masses, and an Italian old style coffee and sandwhich shop is almost seen as yuppie, middle class – and white. The majority of people up the West Croydon end could hardly tell you the name of the prime minister before Margaret Thatcher. That’s ancient history. The time when it was all white people in (west) Croydon – or nearly. Where now the greater majority are non white, and many of those are new immigarnts from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
I know people who no longer recognise Croydon as the place they grew up in. People retreat to their suburbs and prefer to go shopping somewhere else. White flight you can call it. Or middle class flight. Plenty of BME people don’t like the gritty urban reality of the inner city either. That’s often why they move out themselves. They don’t want their kids to go to a failing rough school so send them on trains and buses out to places like Beckenham in the leafy suburbs. Which means that all bus travel in the south London suburban area will have the Code of the street operating right under people’s noses upstairs on the back seats of the buses.
If you don’t know what that is, ask a London bus driver. Where guys in their 20s walk past the driver witout showing a pass, pretending to be under 16 and daring him to challenge him. You see it every day if you bother looking for it. It’s one of these things that people hate. But as these young black guys have twice the unemployment rate, they really can’t afford to be paying bus fares maybe.

Marko Attila Hoare, I completely conceed that what Douglas Murray says is ”beyond the pale” of respectable thought and comment.
But maybe that’s where the problem lies if we insist on errecting these barriers to what is respectable or not. I asked you if you thought people in Slovenia would welcome a lot of new immigrants from further down the Balkans and Asia. I think we know what the answer would be.
In Serbia too. I was in Belgrade last year for the Beer Festival and when I was travelling around the city I was wondering how they would like the experience we have in Englnd. People from all corners of the world living side by side.
I really don’t think it would be popular with the Serbs.
And the truth is that it was never really popular in Britain either, but was forced upon a somewhat reluctant population who have been browbeaten into accepting it. Just look at last night’s Question Time to see how we are managed into the right way of thinking. Even in Blackburn where there is clear racial segregation, we are talked out of seeing it as too bad of a situation and that having a load more Blackburns is not something to fear happening in the future. People from the ”Third World” still want to come here, so we should welcome them. That’s the bottom line of it. Everything else is racist.

By the way, I thought Belgrade was a fantastic city, and was really impressed by that band Yu Grupa and the atmosphere in the crowd. But it was monocultural. All Serb.

To study the results of the latest census is to stare at one
unalterable conclusion: mass immigration has altered our country
completely. It has become a radically different place, and London has
become a foreign country. In 23 of London’s 33 boroughs ‘white
Britons’ are now in a minority…

Seems unarguably true.

The fact that you then go on to torture these words for as much
connotative juice as they can be made to yeild rather proves Murray’s
point, doesn’t it? Even to /recognise/ this programme with anything
other than delight is not legitimate. That’s the meaning of your
attack, and the meaining of the OP.

So no, he isn’t calling for greater integration, because no amount
of integration will ever turn a black Briton into a white Briton.

Why must every writer on this topic pay lip-service to *your* personal
predjudices? Murray is saying that Britain is being repopulated with
foreigners, which is a demonstrably correct, factual statement. Your
objection to this factual statement is purely connotative.

In general, the objective of the delegitmisation of Murray’s views is
the suppression of any critical appraisal of the situation in which we
find ourselves. The choices are then: 1) do not notice it or mention
it; and 2) notice it and mention it but celebrate as good.

One good outcome of declaring someone like Douglas Murray ”beyond the pale” is that you don’t have to engage when he says something actually half interesting, complex and nuanced.
Like his latest article in Standpoint.

Forget ‘Islamophobia’. Let’s Tackle Islamism

SOME of that is worth looking into.

@34

“Buddyhell, I looked on your website and see you wrote approvingly of how the UKIP leader was harassed and harangued on his recent visit to Scotland. Called a fascist and told to get back to England, so I wasn’t making such things up. People like you are always calling people fascists”.

So what? UKIP’s position on immigrants is uncomfortably close to that of the far-right and fascist parties of Europe. But where did I call UKIP fascists? I didn’t. You misrepresented me and that comes as no surprise quite frankly. For the record, I approved of Farage being chased out of Scotland. UKIP aren’t popular there and for good reason. I guess that escaped your attention.

“And neither did we have it till after world war two”.

And your point is what? That everyone be ‘sent back’?

“Personally I don’t like certain things about the new ”urban” culture. The street cultuure that you can see so clearly if you walk around the Croydon shopping area on a Saturday afternoon. The common denominator of the popular culture is that it’s very dumbed down”.

Why? Because you believe it has ‘contaminated’ British culture (which doesn’t exist)? You claim popular culture is “dumbed down”? Do you even know what popular culture is?

Your last paragraph unwittingly reveals a lot about you.

“If you don’t know what that is, ask a London bus driver. Where guys in their 20s walk past the driver witout showing a pass, pretending to be under 16 and daring him to challenge him. You see it every day if you bother looking for it. It’s one of these things that people hate. But as these young black guys have twice the unemployment rate, they really can’t afford to be paying bus fares maybe”.

So it’s just “young black guys” who do this? Turn it in. Next, you’ll be telling us that black people are genetically predisposed to criminality.

It seems quite possible to be opposed to theocrats and extremists and still not find the HJS or Douglas Murray very congenial either. At least – I find it so.

@ 39. Sarah AB

Probably THE most sensible comment on this thread. Thank you Sarah.

41. organic cheeseboard

Wow, that Standpoint article is truly awful. As usual, absolutely no comments from him about how to actually ‘tackle Islamism’, just a load of frothing about how there’s no such thing as Islamophobia, even though the piece is meant to be a call to everyone to ‘focus on Islamism’.

The man has literally nothing constructive to say about anything.

42. the a&e charge nurse

[41] ‘As usual, absolutely no comments from him about how to actually ‘tackle Islamism’ – maybe, but there is an intellectual battle against islam, and yes, other religions (before we descend into whataboutery) because, eventually, any thinking person will come to recognise it for the blather it so clearly is.

In the meantime we will just have to accept that perpetually angry clerics (here, or in other parts of the world) will continue to recruit inadequate young men in order to push various buttons (aided by apocalyptic scriptures) that enable them to perform special tasks for god.

Buddyhell, as I can see you’re a bit of a fundamentalist I know there’s not much point – but anyway:

So what? UKIP’s position on immigrants is uncomfortably close to that of the far-right and fascist parties of Europe.

This is just spin. As far as I can see, UKIP bang on mostly about future possible immigrants. People who haven’t come to the UK yet but might like to.
Whether you agree with it or not, wanting to keep the population down is a legitimate point of view. Having lived in Scotland in the past, I know that there are plenty of Blue Nosed Unionists in Scotland, so running one out of town and calling him a fascist was a cheap shot IMO.
Not everyone wants to live in the kind of diversity that we have in many boroughs in English cities. They are very different to Gloucestershire where I am now for example. Some people prefer Brixton and Hackney, and others prefer places like Stroud and Cheltenham. If we continued the kind of immigration paterns that we had in the last couple of decades, more places would become like Brixton and Hackney. Given the way that humans can be (a bit tribal) there are plenty of people who will prefer that model not to be rolled out across the whole country.

And your point is what? That everyone be ‘sent back’?

How did you jump to that conclusion? Was it your Rick from The Young Ones logic? My point was a counter to your suggestion that Britain was different to eastern Europe as we had ”always” been a country of immigration.

Why? Because you believe it has ‘contaminated’ British culture (which doesn’t exist)?

All I mean is that the common ”street” culture is very dumbed down. It always was (from Teddy boys etc), but the pants hanging down, Ali G speak which everyone can join in whoever they are (even new young Afghani asylum seeker boys who hang about in west Croydon) – is just dumb, that’s all.
In a way that isn’t so obvious here in the city of Gloucester for example.

Your last paragraph unwittingly reveals a lot about you.

Buddyhell, just take a quick look at this ”murder map” for London teenagers. Stephen Lawrence’s memory has been institutionalised – but how many of these teenagers names do you remember? How come the majority are black? How many of the killers do you thing were white?
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/teenage-murder-london.html

I think your silly post unwittingly reveals a lot about you.

organic cheeseboard, I too think that Murray is quite terrible, but I don’t think dismissing him is the way to go about things. What he says should be challenged line by line. The reason why people refuse to engage with people they are opposed to (I think) is that they don’t want to have to deal with the difficult points their opponents might raise. It’s easier to look for their worst pronouncements, and then dismiss everything else they say.
Then what you’re left with is people just shouting at each other (like Unite Against Fascism etc).
Islamism is a serious problem in the UK. There have been hundreds (maybe ?) of extremist Islamist speakers who have spoken to Mulims audiences in Britain. Even the major Muslim organisations like the MCB are very dodgy and backward. They originate from the Muslim world so they would be bound to. Pakistan and Saudi etc are extremly backward places politically, socially and religiously.

(Only) having a go at knee-jerks like Murray doesn’t move things on very far.

@43

“Buddyhell, as I can see you’re a bit of a fundamentalist I know there’s not much point – but anyway”

Don’t give up your day job, sport.

“All I mean is that the common ”street” culture is very dumbed down”.

This belief is predicated on the notion that only one form of culture is legitimate. In other words, any kind of cultural form that does not conform to the dominant mode of cultural production. You’re making a relativistic argument.

“Buddyhell, just take a quick look at this ”murder map” for London teenagers. Stephen Lawrence’s memory has been institutionalised – but how many of these teenagers names do you remember? How come the majority are black? How many of the killers do you thing were white”?

Pure sophistry.

“How did you jump to that conclusion? Was it your Rick from The Young Ones logic? My point was a counter to your suggestion that Britain was different to eastern Europe as we had ”always” been a country of immigration”.

You still don’t get it, do you? Are you really that thick? Jews and Roma have always been treated appallingly in Eastern Europe, you deliberately and wilfully missed the point. I won’t ask you to have another try because if this reply is anything to go by, it will contain the usual sophisms, fabrications and historical elisions.

“I think your silly post unwittingly reveals a lot about you”.

There’s nothing “silly” about my post, you’re being evasive and that speaks volumes.

So what? UKIP’s position on immigrants is uncomfortably close to
that of the far-right and fascist parties of Europe.

What, in the sense that they would both like it if there were less?
Excellent logic! And weren’t fascists also pretty nifty when it came to
making the trains run on time? Therefore, we should try to make all
our trains run late.

@46

“What, in the sense that they would both like it if there were less?
Excellent logic! And weren’t fascists also pretty nifty when it came to
making the trains run on time? Therefore, we should try to make all
our trains run late”.

Don’t be a sap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hauR-4sNUMc

@46

Here’s another.
http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/ukips-stuart-parr-and-cliff-dixon.html

Now tell me that this is all in my imagination and I’ll laugh in your smug face.

Buddyhell

Pure sophistry.

I think that’s what you’ve just done by dismissing that roll call of murdered teenagers, of which it seems that about 80% were black.
And where nearly all the killers were the multi-cultural (black) gang banging ‘body poppers’ that make up the vanguard of today’s London street culture. The truth that is it isn’t really the white thugs like who killed Stephen Lawrence who are the most dangerous and troublesome (in London), but the ones the police are always stopping and searching and who sometimes riot when they get frustrated. The ones that have twice the rates of youth unemployment etc. It’s things like this which are woven into what Douglas Murray says.

I don’t think a Brits and Eastern Europeans are that different really, even though we’ve had a different history. We can be as petty and nationalistic as much as anyone – and there’s plenty not to like about places which become the first ports of call for waves of new immigrants. The bedsitland transience just for one.
Just because we have had waves of immigrants in the past, doesn’t mean that we have to continue that way in the future until the place is utterly transformed and become more like the places where so many people have come from.
World wars have been fought over these kinds of issues. You can’t just ban jingoism.

@51

“I think that’s what you’ve just done by dismissing that roll call of murdered teenagers, of which it seems that about 80% were black”.

I’ve done no such thing. You said “Stephen Lawrence’s memory has been institutionalised”. Please explain what you mean by this.

“I don’t think a Brits and Eastern Europeans are that different really, even though we’ve had a different history”.

I really think you should re-read your earlier post. You said this:

“Ask people from Eastern Europe if they would like to develop the kind of diversity we have in England and a majority will probably just say no”.

And these countries have a history of persecuting Jews and Roma. So care to tell me what sort of point you’re trying to make here?

Either a policy is good or it is bad. If it is good, it is unconditionally good — that is, it is good regardless of who proposes it or supports it. For example, just because the Nazis believed in a mixed economy, doesn’t mean that state intervention in markets is ispo facto a bad thing or that you can catch Hitler from it.

You said “Stephen Lawrence’s memory has been institutionalised”. Please explain what you mean by this.

Take a look at this photo.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t have held this service, but that is what institutionalised anti-racism looks like. It leads to heavy handed policing of Twitter and even wants to dictate what kinds of songs football fans can sing.

And you might not have noticed, eastern European Roma aren’t that popular in the UK either.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9268954/Gangs-of-homeless-Romanian-beggars-move-into-Londons-Park-Lane.html

Again, even though I don’t like Douglas Murray, the left are as bad as the right in poisoning any chance of discussing these issues in a reasonable manner publicly. It just can’t be done. It falls into shouting insults and slogans too quickly.

What we do (in the west) is hold white western people up to far higher standards than we would anyone else. Which is kind of racist when you think about it.
We don’t hold Nigeria, Pakistan, Fiji or Trinidad, up to the same standards we would of ourselves.

55. the a&e charge nurse

[52] ‘I’ve done no such thing. You said “Stephen Lawrence’s memory has been institutionalised”. Please explain what you mean by this’ – I don’t know if ‘institutionalised’ is the right phrase but this murder has certainly attracted the kind of coverage that is usually absent when other young black men have been murdered, even though such murders are disproportionately high in places like London.

Does this imply that the hundreds of other deaths are somehow less newsworthy – or put another way do such deaths not attract attention because they lack one of the essential liberal obsessions, racism, an ingredient that usually kicks the chattering class into overdrive?

Just to be clear I am not suggesting that the murder of Stephen Lawrence did not deserve such scrutiny, not least because of the well documented official failings but I’ll bet most of the public will are unable to remember a single name of the many other young victims?

@54

“And you might not have noticed, eastern European Roma aren’t that popular in the UK either.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9268954/Gangs-of-homeless-Romanian-beggars-move-into-Londons-Park-Lane.html

Plus ca change. Let’s blame the blame the Roma. It’s only a matter of time before it’s the Jews again.

@damon

I’m only surprised that you haven’t fallen back on the old clichés about the Roma, to be honest. Thanks for continuing to universalise anti-Ziganism.

Buddyhell, you’re being completely dishonest and devious.
You brought up the issue of Roma, saying how persecuted they had been in eastern and central Europe, and I only pointred out that they weren’t that popular in England either. Why that is so and what should be done to integrate the Roma who move to western Europe is a completely legitimate area for discussion.
Though I fear you would just use them as a way of sniping and throwing accusations. I was in Bulgaria this time last year and saw many Roma who were in a bad situation. Threre are no simple fixes.
In Plovdiv there were Roma children walking around the downtown streets without even shoes on their feet.
I wonder what you would do to sort this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolipinovo

Just mouth slogans no doubt.

You’re not taking me up on my institutionalised anti-racism idea though? That picture says it all. The 20 year anniversary of Stephen Lawrence with ALL of the three main party leader, plus the mayor, plus the top brass of the police all in attendance.
Yet meanwhile, the charge is that these institutions are still all racist. Douglas Murray is a prat, but these issues need more than SWP-like slogans Buddy.

@58

“Buddyhell, you’re being completely dishonest and devious.
You brought up the issue of Roma, saying how persecuted they had been in eastern and central Europe, and I only pointred out that they weren’t that popular in England either”.

You mentioned Eastern Europe and how those Eastern Europeans you met didn’t want foreigners on their soil. I felt that I had to remind you about the history of Eastern Europe vis a vis the Other. Perhaps you’ve never heard of the pogroms? Or is it the case, you’re simply being evasive and dishonest yourself?

“You’re not taking me up on my institutionalised anti-racism idea though? That picture says it all. The 20 year anniversary of Stephen Lawrence with ALL of the three main party leader, plus the mayor, plus the top brass of the police all in attendance”.

No, you’re suggesting that the murder of Stephen Lawrence has been institutionalised and used as a totem.

“Yet meanwhile, the charge is that these institutions are still all racist. Douglas Murray is a prat, but these issues need more than SWP-like slogans Buddy”.

Yeah, he is a prat but I fail to understand how what I am saying resembles an “SWP-like slogan”. Perhaps you could try and make your point(s) a little clearer?

@58

“Just mouth slogans no doubt”.

What is that supposed to mean?

I know about the plight of the Roma of Eastern Europe. I also know the history of anti-Ziganism in Britain. I am also aware of how anti-Ziganism is still socially acceptable, while other forms of racism are not. Your original point about Eastern Europe deliberately and wilfully ignored the pogroms and how the Roma continue to be marginalised in those countries.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means that you sound like a bit of a shouter.
You had reported approvingly on your own blog how Nigel Farage was sent packing from Edinburgh – so I guessed you were one of those kind. A bit like the black clad, mask wearing fools who were running about in Soho yesterday. A bit like the UAF calling people ”Nazis”.

My point about Stephen Lawrence was to highlight how a twenty year old racist murder commited by white low lifes is so much more in our national consciousness than dozens more murders of black teenagers done a lot more recently. There’s a big story/issue in there if we wanted to look into it. I call it ”official anti-racism” – but have to admit I picked up that idea from here.

As for eastern European people, you seem to be painting a very grim picture of them. As if in fact they were ”the other”. If they’re that bad then it’s not good that so many have come to Britain is it?
Personally I find them to be pretty OK and much like most other people.

62. So Much For Subtlety

60. buddyhell

I am also aware of how anti-Ziganism is still socially acceptable, while other forms of racism are not.

And why might that be?

how the Roma continue to be marginalised in those countries.

So after sixty years of anti-racism, socialism, and social inclusion, the Roma are still unable to fit into Eastern European society to the point the indigenous population is encouraging them to move to Western Europe – where a brand new form of discrimination is rising – and somehow you blame this on everyone but the Roma?

Do you think it is possible, even slightly, in the smallest way, possible that the Roma are contributing to this problem?

This just indicates the absurdity to which this whole thread of what is essentially Leftist McCarthyism has descended.


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