Not racist? ‘Send the black cunts home’ – EDL


11:03 am - May 28th 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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The English Defence League are not a racist group, their leaders keep claiming in the media.

But even their top people can’t help themselves.

This video was taken at the EDL’s very recent Newcastle demonstration, which attracted over 1,500 people.

This clip was edited out of the official video.

It features a key EDL operative, who is brought on stage by leader Tommy Robinson, saying: “send the black cunts home”.

The crowd cheer him on.

(via @exposetweets)

This is also mirrored on Facebook in case YouTube take it down

The Facebook mirror has now been taken down.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


Yasmin Alibhai Brown said this about the Islamist nutters the other day:

We need to know about their upbringing in depth. These men’s self-esteem, experience of racism, and attitudes to sexuality may provide answers. Unless we know them, we can’t change them. If we don’t change them, no military, intelligence or police intervention will stop the bloody chaos. Send in the psychologists, for all our sakes.

I don’t disagree. I’d also say that the EDL should have the same treatment. I think they can be understood quote easily if you look at them from a psychological perspective. They’re the lumpen white working class. Just ordinary people really.
Idiotic but normal.

@1 – Last time I checked the EDL weren’t decapitating people on the streets of London. By all means have a whinge but let’s not, yer know, drivel on about equivalence, eh?

DtP: “Last time I checked the EDL weren’t decapitating people on the streets of London.”

No, but if the EDL let loose on an Asian area of a British city and the police weren’t there, I think it’s fair to say a lot of innocent people would get very seriously hurt, even killed.

They’re both movements who believe they can fulfil extreme political goals with threats of violence. No, they’re not “equivalent”, but there are probably a lot of commonalities between the sort of people who get involved.

Improving mental health care in this country might not score moral points by punishing the guilty, but it well have a bigger impact than ineffectively trying to gag the leadership in the courts. I suspect that tactic (also used against both far right and Islamic terrorists) may even enhance their appeal to angry young men by making them look like oppressed rebels whose voice “the man” doesn’t want anyone to hear.

DtP @2 – you seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick. Where does ”equivalence” come from?
My point was more about Liberal Conspiracy having an EDL obsession and has highlighted them so many times in the past few years – as did Sunny’s other website Pickled Politics.

It actually gets really annoying and tedious that people on the anti-racist left keep banging on about the EDL, but completely refuse to have a more calm measured look at who they actually are and what makes them tick. They are a problem we have at the moment, but not really a major one, and ignoring them or being more honest about what they actually are and what they represent would be far better IMO.
I was banned by one of Sunny’s mods on the Pickled Politics website for making this point a couple of years ago, so I’m pretty sure nothing’s going to change with the shrill over-the-top coverage they get on LC.
The EDL are thick and lumpen, but it’s totally to be expected that there would be some kind of ”backlash” to how our modern multi faith multi-culturalism has worked out in practice. There are some major problems with it that people on the left seem to be unable to discuss.

5. Shatterface

My point was more about Liberal Conspiracy having an EDL obsession and has highlighted them so many times in the past few years – as did Sunny’s other website Pickled Politics.

There have been more threads about hypothetical EDL revenge attacks than about the attack itself because angry racists posting on Twitter are a greater threat to society than public beheadings.

It’s important to uphold the illusion of equivalece because aren’t we all a little bit terroristy on the inside?

It actually gets really annoying and tedious that people on the anti-racist left keep banging on about the EDL, but completely refuse to have a more calm measured look at who they actually are and what makes them tick. They are a problem we have at the moment, but not really a major one, and ignoring them or being more honest about what they actually are and what they represent would be far better IMO.

They’re a tiny mob at the moment – their demonstrations could easily be mistaken for a bunch of football hooligans waiting impatiently for a bus – but if LibCon and the like continue to make them sound as exciting as Al Qaeda rather than a squalid bunch of losers they’ll eventually attract the same kind of people (only whiter).

The hypocrisy of this is ridiculous. I’m far from a EDL supporter but tired of being shouted down as racist etc etc
This is utter BS. I’m sure all you condemning the WHOLE of the EDL for the thoughts of this one man are the same people constantly tweeting how the whole of Islam can’t be blamed for terrorist attacks. Pick one or the other, stop these ridiculous double standards.

@Chaz watch the video, the speaker was loudly cheered by the majority of EDL present.

8. Derek Hattons Tailor

It’s no different to one member of an Islamic group calling for public beheadings of non-muslims – does it make them representative of the whole group or just a minority of it, or just themselves ? The idea that EDL represent the whole of the white working class is offensive and patronising. No one would suggest that the middle classes are all the same, or that any other ethnic groups should be defined by extreme opinions held by some of its members.
Quite what their sexuality has to do with anything is beyond me (and yes I’m a psychology grad if that helps) sexuality barely features in in/out group psychology, far more important is deterioration in the socio-economic environment driving a need for scapegoating, and the perceived threat to National Identity, which for reasons I can’t be bothered to explain, becomes more entwined with personal identity the poorer you are. These causal factors are of course traceable to the repeated failures of the political class and the greed of the metropolitan elite, who have been attacking white working class values and culture for half a century now, so we aren’t allowed to talk about them. I’m just waiting for someone to trot out Adorno’s theory of “authoritarian toilet training” before I invoke Godwin.

9. Chaise Guevara

@ 6 Chaz

“This is utter BS. I’m sure all you condemning the WHOLE of the EDL for the thoughts of this one man are the same people constantly tweeting how the whole of Islam can’t be blamed for terrorist attacks. Pick one or the other, stop these ridiculous double standards.”

It’s not quite the same thing. Religions aren’t mandatory, but the process of “selecting” one isn’t much like joining a political organisation. Most religious people are raised to believe that their religion, warts and all, is the one true faith, not just the best thing on the menu. So that’s why people are more likely to leave an organisation than a religion in protest to something.

Fully agree with you that we shouldn’t make out every EDL supporter is a racist, though.

10. Chaise Guevara

@ 4 damon

“It actually gets really annoying and tedious that people on the anti-racist left keep banging on about the EDL, but completely refuse to have a more calm measured look at who they actually are and what makes them tick. ”

Agreed. Bit of a double-standard there.

11. Shatterface

Agreed. Bit of a double-standard there.

The double standard’s not so much in the assumption that the EDL are racists – a good number probably are – as in the amount of coverage their twatting about gets here compared with the Woolwich murder itself (not the newspaper coverage, or the Twitter posts, or any of the meta-bollocks which allows people to talk about the way other people are talking about something without having to lower themselves to talking about it themselves) or the more recent attack on a prison warden which hasn’t rated even a mention.

12. Chaise Guevara

@ 11 Shatterface

The EDL, as a group, is waaaay more racist than average. Doesn’t mean they all are. If you meet an EDL member, you don’t need to immediately start making the evil eye. I missed the story about the prison warden.

Incidentally, this:

“not the newspaper coverage, or the Twitter posts, or any of the meta-bollocks which allows people to talk about the way other people are talking about something without having to lower themselves to talking about it themselves”

Well. Fucking. Said. Although I suspect I’m guilty of the same at times.

13. Dissident

The EDL have been on Anomynous’s radar for a while. A day ago they posted a warning to them on YouTube – here’s a transcript of their warning to them…

“Good morning members, and leaders of the English Defense League. We are Anonymous UK. We have been patiently observing your organisation, as you have inflated, indoctrinating our young with your criminal mindset. You have capitalized on the misfortunes of our peoples, taking advantage of moments of fear, of terror, and of reconciliation, to spread hatred and animosity towards your fellow man. Your constant belligerence, like a pack of raving ignoramuses, furthering only bigotry and segregation. You have angered us considerably, and summoned our wrath irrevocably. Last week, an innocent Drummer, Lee Rigby, lost his life at the hands of two vile and demented human beings in the most horrific, and heinous manner ever witnessed on the streets of Britain. This villainous public display has thrown the United Kingdom into mourning; every community, and every congregation, extending their deepest condolences. You however, have used this as another excuse to further spread your campaign of hate, bigotry, and misinformation. Under the guise of national pride you have instigated crimes against the innocent and incited the subjugation of Muslims. We will not allow your injustices, your lies, and your stupidity, to further radicalize our youth into fearing and despising their fellow man.

Our people are desperate for hope, in a hopeless society where our own government neglects us, where society has failed us, it is only natural to seek a relatable change maker. This sort of desperation, this quest for feeling of worth, is what you have taken advantage of.

In this operation, we will begin the systematic and comprehensive desiccation of your cult. We will further expose your falsities and your attempts to censor, to your members, to the British public, and to the world as a whole. You will fall, we can say this with complete confidence. We are everywhere, you cannot hide, you cannot win We are the voices of all and the voice of one. It will not happen over night, but we WILL be victorious.

We are Anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.

#OpEDL
@Operation_EDL”

@ 2 DtP
So the brutal murder of a grandad by machete on 29th April in a racist attack never happened? maybe because his name was Mohamed it doesn’t count in your eyes? Or are you going to claim it was somehow random, and absolutely nothing to do with EDL hatemongering…

So supporters of the muslim religion want to see an end to the EDL?
I want to see an end to all religions that kill, groom children & want to behead people.
I’ll stop supporting the EDL when that happens.

15. Dissident

@14 ED”Love”

“So supporters of the muslim religion want to see an end to the EDL?
I want to see an end to all religions that kill, groom children & want to behead people.
I’ll stop supporting the EDL when that happens.”

So you want to see the end of Christianity too? Because that is a religion that’s guilty of everything you say about Islam, and what makes you think it is support of Islam, when it is really about EDL being bigoted thugs, using the tragedy in Woolwich to further their own organisational and personal gain.

History never repeats itself exactly, but I see EDL as remarkably similar to the brown shirts of Germany between 1929 and 1933. Are you certain you want a bunch of psychopathic IQ 70-90 thugs controlling our streets? Because they will get bored, and target any random person no matter who they are once they have done what you claim you want. By 1945, after a rampage over the whole of Europe that cost 54 million lives, the last few victims were the very people that supported such criminals in the first place, as they went around using their children as soldiers to fend off tanks and stringing their supporters up from lamp posts because they refused to pay the ultimate sacrifice….

Shatterface @5. I think the problem is that those who are most alarmed by the EDL, are people who have very little understanding of that part of society where those people come from. We have cultures that can not comprehend the other. It’s pretty normal – it happens everywhere in the world.
The anti-racist left have no real understanding of the more lumpen white working class people who used to for example – drink in Old Kent Road pubs like The Duke of Kent … which is now a mosque frequented by people from Africa.
I remember being in there one time and there were Millwall fans in there after a saturday home game.
A world that has moved on a bit, as the population demographics have changed. Some people wont mind the change and others will regret it maybe. It’s perfectly natural that they would as we humans are prone to be sentimental about things like that. Nostalgic etc.

On the ever so pure anti-racist side of things, people can’t see how anyone would ever have any problem with the passing of older traditional ways of life and being thrust into the modern multi-cultural way things are, where even the old working class accents get lost in time and all the young people are speaking the hip-hop street lingo. And no one remembers the Blitz and the doodlebugs and all of that history because most people’s families weren’t living there then.
The EDL are idiots, and border-line racists I’m sure.
But that’s the way parts of that section of society can be. They are the ”I’m not racist, but …” people that the left love to hate and poor scorn on.
And they are the ones that will insist that some of their friends are black … and it might actually be true, but the liberal lefties hate them even more for using that cliche line. The left hate them, because they can’t get their heads around that idea. They may indeed have some black (or muslim) friends. Which is kind of where the EDL are. They are not totally racist, but racism is tolerated in their ranks. A lot of people can’t undersatnd that way of being.

I recall primal Scream supported oasis in concert . Primal scream has a so g supporting Irish Nationalism then left the stage, while awaiting for Oasis to come on stage 300,000 oasis fans sung no surrender!

Not as racist as invading Iraq and killing 100,000 Muslims for no good reason. Moreover (shock horror) the BNP opposed that war from day one. And worse still they predicted that the war would result in blood on the streets of London.

So if you’re looking for thick headed racist clots, look no further than the Labour and Tory party.

How are the EDL racist when….

1) The EDL have non white members.
2) They have Sikh supporters & they are very respected among the EDL.
3) They even have a muslim supporter who is always seen at the marches and also, “treated like a god” by the EDL members, that was the words of the EDL leader.
4) They have a gay & lesbian section.

Doesn’t look very racist does it?
The good people of this country know media Bullsh*t when they see it, which is why if you bother to look into the EDL you will see they are good decent people & nothing like how the leftist BBC & sad UAF supporters like Cameron try to make them out to be.

damon and Shatterface are notorious Muslim haters in the webosphere

21. Derek Hattons Tailor

@ 16 There are 2 arguments against the “Times have changed/it’s the 21st C” neophiliac argument.

Firstly, times have always been changing. Experience of change is relative to your own subjective experience and how long you’ve been alive. The only things that has measurably changed is the amount of information available, the more you know about the world the more it *seems* to be changing. Who is to say that the printing press didn’t have as big an impact as the internet ?

Secondly, the idea that new=good, beloved of neo liberals, Tony Blair and baby boomers is logically unsupportable. It suggests that someone living in Germany in the 1930s should have just been told that times have changed and anyone who doesn’t embrace the new order is living in the past ? Its a classic totalitarian trick, demonise the past in order to make the present seem more acceptable and rational.
Even worse is legislating to engineer a change and then pretending it’s somehow a consequence of organic change or “changing social attitudes” – the smoking ban was a prime example of this, heavily restrict something and then claim it has stopped because of changing attitudes.

22. Chaise Guevara

@ 19 Ed Love

OK, let’s do the list:

“1) The EDL have non white members.”

Heh. It so happens that you can be racist against one group without being racist against every other group not your own.

“2) They have Sikh supporters & they are very respected among the EDL.”

See above.

“3) They even have a muslim supporter who is always seen at the marches and also, “treated like a god” by the EDL members, that was the words of the EDL leader.”

I’m going to make some guesses here: this Muslim is either not very devout or is very Western in their outlook, and supports the EDL on their other values like patriotism and casual violence.

So they’ve got one Muslim supporter that they can hold up like a cardboard shield against accusations that they hate Muslims. Of course they bloody treat him like a god.

“4) They have a gay & lesbian section.”

Um. You know homosexuals aren’t a race, right? I mean, technically nor are Muslims, but every real Muslim-hater I’ve met tends to assume every vaguely Middle-Eastern-looking person is a Muslim, so it sorta counts. But no, contrary to your beliefs, homosexuals aren’t a race who hail from the isle of Lesbos.

This is almost as hilarious as that EDL documentary where a high-up member made an embarrassingly big deal out of showing that his daughter was mixed race. He actually phoned her and asked her to come stand in front of the camera. I felt sorry for both of them.

23. John Reid

Well said 4 and 6′ 2′ do you know that if the police weren’t at EDL rallies they’d kill people based on the evidence one said black c@@ts

24. Richard Carey

I would take the copious denunciations of EDL a little more earnestly, if liberals were more forthright about the incompatibility of liberal values regarding women’s rights, gay rights, free speech, freedom of conscience etc with Sharia Law.

25. Chaise Guevara

@ 24 Richard

They’re completely incompatible and, for bonus points, Sharia is one of the most unpleasant doctrines I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve worked in a call centre.

That help?

26. Richard Carey

@ 25 Chaise,

indeed it does.

27. So Much For Subtlety

15. Dissident

Are you certain you want a bunch of psychopathic IQ 70-90 thugs controlling our streets? Because they will get bored, and target any random person no matter who they are once they have done what you claim you want.

It is funny, because I bet the EDL says exactly the same thing. Except they might describe the psychopathic IQ 70-90 thugs with a racial epithet or two. You are really not so different you know.

@19

A significant minority of Italian Jews were members of Mussolini’s fascist party. What’s your point?

“The good people of this country know media Bullsh*t when they see it, which is why if you bother to look into the EDL you will see they are good decent people & nothing like how the leftist BBC & sad UAF supporters like Cameron try to make them out to be”.

The “leftist” BBC? Hilarious.

29. Richard Carey

@ 28 Buddyhell,

“The “leftist” BBC? Hilarious”

You’re easily amused. This’ll make you larf:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bbc-chief-mark-thompson-admits-leftwing-bias-6509105.html

@29

That still doesn’t make the BBC “leftist”.

If the BBC is so “leftist”, why is their news coverage so, er, right-wing? Then there’s the pro-cuts, pro-austerity narrative than never gets challenged (why not have a look at “Saints and Scroungers”?). And you have the cheek to post a link to an article written by Mark Thompson, the pro-Zionist, right-wing former DG as if its an unassailable truth?

On your bike, son.

@29

Oh and the article was published in the Evening Standard.

I don’t which is worse, you telling me the BBC is “leftist” by linking to an article written by Thompson or the fact that it was published in the Tory-friendly Evening Standard.

Totally squirrels.

32. Robin Levett

@Richard Carey #29:

“The “leftist” BBC? Hilarious”

You’re easily amused. This’ll make you larf:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bbc-chief-mark-thompson-admits-leftwing-bias-6509105.html

Did you read the story? In the intro, the Standard says (my emphasis):

The BBC was guilty of a “massive bias to the Left” in the past,/b>, director general Mark Thompson has said.

It then quotes Mark Thompson as saying:

“In the BBC I joined 30 years ago, there was, in much of current affairs, in terms of people’s personal politics, which were quite vocal, a massive bias to the left.

“The organisation did struggle then with impartiality. And journalistically, staff were quite mystified by the early years of Thatcher.

“Now it is a completely different generation. There is much less overt tribalism among the young journalists who work for the BBC.”

So 30 years ago the staff’s personal politics were to the left, so they struggled with impartiality, whereas nowadays “it is an entirely different generation”, with “much less overt tribalism”. Ie, that was then, this is now. I’m struggling to see how, even taking his words at face value, they support your claim.

33. Chaise Guevara

@ 26 Richard

Welcome.

34. Richard Carey

@ BuddyHell,

“If the BBC is so “leftist”, why is their news coverage so, er, right-wing?”

It’s not. It’s just that you are probably more left-wing than they are, so you’re like a Slayer fan slagging off Metallica for being wimps. I would say though that ‘statist’ or ‘collectivist’ are more accurate labels for the BBC.

@ Robin,

“I’m struggling to see how, even taking his words at face value, they support your claim.”

When even the DG has to admit the lefty bias, albeit by couching it in the past tense, the game’s up. I could tell you it’s obvious, but I guess it’s not to you. Different perspectives, I suppose. Personally, when I hear, for instance, ‘The Now Show’ on Radio 4, it comes across as relentlessly left-wing, like an annoying posh student, and this same attitude seems to pervade the organisation. I don’t see it as left-wing in a Bob Crowe sense, more an establishment, Oxbridge Fabian Society, Guardian-reader type way. The BBC, as a state-enforced quasi-monopoly can never question certain fundamentals, without undermining its own claim to legitimacy. For this reason, perhaps, it will never question the legitimacy of large areas of government action.

35. John Reid

Dissident- 15 SMfS, rather won the argument against you there.

@34

“It’s not. It’s just that you are probably more left-wing than they are, so you’re like a Slayer fan slagging off Metallica for being wimps. I would say though that ‘statist’ or ‘collectivist’ are more accurate lab”

Your reply makes no sense. I think we know why.

@34

Here’s a link to counter your link. JOhn Simpson says the BBC was “never left-wing”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8059005/John-Simpson-says-BBC-news-was-never-left-wing.html

Of course, Mark Thompson is rather right-wing. No? Funny how you kind of ignored that wee point.

38. Dissident

“It is funny, because I bet the EDL says exactly the same thing. Except they might describe the psychopathic IQ 70-90 thugs with a racial epithet or two. You are really not so different you know.”

Is that meant to describe me personally as psychopathic, or are you trying to say that the actions of Drummer Lee’s murderers was psychopathic? Be clearer there. Don’t forget, the murderers of Lee are a rarity, yet the average EDL member is also someone who tends to be a racist nazi loving thug anyway. They use slightly olive coloured skin as a marker for a “Muslim” and use the actions of a tiny minority to demonise literally everyone else with slightly olive coloured skin, and others in this country who see them for what they are. Is that acceptable to you?

Because you have stated on another thread that you find bullying objectionable. How is the demonisation and threat of violence used against millions on the basis of 2 people’s actions NOT bullying, do you somehow believe the EDL’s manufactured victim complex is genuine?

39. Richard Carey

@36 Buddyhell,

“Your reply makes no sense. I think we know why.”

Who’s this ‘we’? You and your collectivist group-think chums? Even if you don’t agree with my reply, you should be able to understand it. The concept was not a difficult one.

@37 Buddyhell,

“Here’s a link to counter your link. JOhn Simpson says the BBC was “never left-wing”.”

He doesn’t say that. He’s says the BBC’s news coverage was never left-wing.

What we can say is this:
right-wing people think the BBC is left-wing
left-wing people think the BBC is right-wing
centrist, statist, liberal establishment people think the BBC is fair and balanced

40. John Reid

The BBC is left wing on something’s ,right on other, that train ponds party politics, they were anti Wilson, anti Thatcher, anti Blair,
They’re pro NATO, pro the monarchy,

Pro the EU, which in tony Benns days was seen as right wing,now it’s seen as left wing

Has sympathy for republicanism in Northern Ireland, which seeing as the DUP hate Tories more than the left,can’t e. defined as right wing, anti the police, which seeing as the Daily Mail hates the police more than the Guardian, has gone from being an anti right wing thing to an anti left wing one, especially as New labour was the party of lAw and order in recent years,

41. Dissident

@40 John Reid

You comment there reads as incoherent/self contradictory as big media news. Was that deliberate?

This is also mirrored on Facebook in case YouTube take it down

The Facebook mirror has now been taken down.

Not sure if fail or not.

43. So Much For Subtlety

39. Richard Carey

What we can say is this:
right-wing people think the BBC is left-wing
left-wing people think the BBC is right-wing
centrist, statist, liberal establishment people think the BBC is fair and balanced

No we cannot. Because left wing people do not think the BBC is right wing. Not unless they are so far to the Left they think Stalin was a capitalist. Left wing people know the BBC is soldily on the left. As so centrists.

There just is no rational debate about this. The BBC is a solidly left wing organisation. Which is why the BBC is always defended by the likes of the Guardian – who usually explicitly say that it is necessary to subsidise a left wing voice to compete with Murdoch.

44. Charlieman

@39. Richard Carey: “centrist, statist, liberal establishment people think the BBC is fair and balanced”

Why didn’t you mention anti-statist liberals, anti-establishment liberals?

Where we are today is not where I wish to be, speaking as an anti-statist and anti-establishment liberal. Politics puts us in this place.

But the thing that really pisses me off about the BBC is product placement for a “dancing stars”, shit no wank, programme in Radio 4 news. Radio 4 news told me, tediously, that the stars were going to be replaced by new made up stars. The arsing tossers presumed that we would turn off the descendents of late Ned Sherrin, who broadcast wacky music and conversation, and look at “BBC Humiliates People”.

45. Richard Carey

@ SMFS,

athough I didn’t mention you by name, you are covered by the “right-wing people think the BBC is left-wing” part of my statement. I’m not sure you are able to comment with much insight on what lefties think.

@ Charlieman,

“Why didn’t you mention anti-statist liberals,anti-establishment liberals?”

Who are these people of whom you speak? They sound like fellow libertarians.

46. Dissident

“There just is no rational debate about this. The BBC is a solidly left wing organisation. Which is why the BBC is always defended by the likes of the Guardian – who usually explicitly say that it is necessary to subsidise a left wing voice to compete with Murdoch.”

Escape to the Country, Homes Under the Hammer, Top Gear, Bargain Hunt, Eastenders, Moto GP… any more examples of your extreme left wing BBC programming SMFS?

47. So Much For Subtlety

45. Richard Carey

I’m not sure you are able to comment with much insight on what lefties think.

I think I am. After all I listen to be BBC all the time.

Dissident

Escape to the Country, Homes Under the Hammer, Top Gear, Bargain Hunt, Eastenders, Moto GP… any more examples of your extreme left wing BBC programming SMFS?

When the BBC wanted to hire a Chief Economics Editor, who did they hire? Paul Mason. A former member of the Worker’s Power Group and most famous for a childish anti-Thatcher play. Knowledge of economics or business? Roughly nil. But they hired him anyway. What do you think the reasons for that were? His training as a music teacher?

Or look at a programme like Dateline London. Which has two token Conservatives in Janet Daley and very very rarely some women from the Daily Mail. But all the rest are on the Left – most of them write for the Guardian.

Or look at a journalist like Lyse Doucet who cried when Arafat died and has said we should concentrate more on the humanity of the Taliban.

Yes, the BBC has some shows that are liked by ordinary people. I bet the management is only too eager to get rid of them all.

48. Charlieman

45. Richard Carey: “Who are these people of whom you speak?”

People who determined that they were outsiders, in a social sense or socio economic sense, congregated in the Liberal Party in the 1970s. Similar people assemble in the LibDems today.

I will not try to push you to join the LibDems, Richard. However, liberal and libertarian outsiders are influential. The party is a liberal muddle. LibDems are the only mainstream party that emphasise liberalism in the constitution; liberalism is the premise for existence.

49. douglas clark

Scottish Nationalists see the BBC pumping out shite in the Unionist cause. It is what they do, the BBC I mean.

SMFS, who appears to be an observer short of a shilling had this to say:

“There just is no rational debate about this. The BBC is a solidly left wing organisation. Which is why the BBC is always defended by the likes of the Guardian – who usually explicitly say that it is necessary to subsidise a left wing voice to compete with Murdoch.”

I am solidly left wing and I want independence for Scotland. Would SMFS, whose modus operandi is to insult anyone that doesn’t buy into his or her unique, i.e. lonely view of the world care to share with us how come the BBC are acting as vanguards for Westminster?

All of us ought to expect neutrality from the BBC.

We rarely get it, and I mention the above merely because I know about it. No minority is treated fairly over the piece.

There are other examples of their lack of neutrality, but I could post examples till the cows come home and SMFS would remain in a state of utter denial.

He or she has been bought and sold as agents for a singularity, that the status quo is best.

I happen to think otherwise.

50. Charlieman

@47. So Much For Subtlety: “When the BBC wanted to hire a Chief Economics Editor, who did they hire? Paul Mason. A former member of the Worker’s Power Group and most famous for a childish anti-Thatcher play.”

Shit, SMFS. Do you mean the same Paul Mason who wrote for far left newspapers such as the Mail and Express?

As a liberal lefty, I enjoy Paul Mason’s broadcasts for who he is more than what he says. As a northern liberal lefty, I prefer hearing his voice rather than listening to a posh southerner. Paul Mason is a good talker. That is why he got his BBC job.

It doesn’t mean that Paul Mason is right. I don’t always agree with his analyses. I make up my own mind, as do BBC viewers.

51. Richard Carey

@ SMFS

“I think I am. After all I listen to be BBC all the time.”

Touché!

@ 48 Charlieman,

I might consider the Lib Dems if I lived in Oxford, then I could hang out with Jock Coates, a charming fellow from the anarchist wing (!) of the party.

@ Douglas Clarke,

“All of us ought to expect neutrality from the BBC.”

Why on earth would you expect neutrality from a state-funded broadcaster? They must defend the status quo, because they ARE the status quo.

52. So Much For Subtlety

49. douglas clark

Scottish Nationalists see the BBC pumping out shite in the Unionist cause. It is what they do, the BBC I mean.

So freakin’ what? Scottish Nationalism is not a left right issue. The Labour Party oppose it. I expect the Trots do too. They usually do.

I am solidly left wing and I want independence for Scotland.

Good for you. But the world is full of people who are just as solidly left wing who do not. This is an utterly irrelevant shibboleth.

Charlieman

Do you mean the same Paul Mason who wrote for far left newspapers such as the Mail and Express?

A single swallow does not make a spring. And did they publish him? If so saying what?

The fact is that they hired him despite no credible experience at all.

Paul Mason is a good talker. That is why he got his BBC job.

Britain is full of sly chancers who are good at talking. Very few of them get BBC jobs.

Richard Carey

They must defend the status quo, because they ARE the status quo.

And the status quo is left wing. Which is another reason why their coverage of Thatcher’s funeral was so bad.

53. Dissident

@ 49 Douglas Clark
“Would SMFS, whose modus operandi is to insult anyone that doesn’t buy into his or her unique, i.e. lonely view of the world”

Have you ever considered that SMFS is programmed merely to talk unto power? Whether that programming is in binary code or brainwashing in the Country club is irrelevant…

@ 52 SMFS
“And the status quo is left wing.”

Say what? When for the past 30 years it has been pushed ever rightwards by neo liberal agendas. Or are you disappointed it is still not somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan?

54. Richard Carey

@ SMFS

“And the status quo is left wing.”

I know what you mean, but for some reason lefties don’t see it this way, which is curious. The main reason for this, I think, is that left-wing versus right-wing arguments miss the underlying conflict between state power and individual liberty. You, being a right-winger bemoan the rise of state power, doing things you don’t like, and call it left-wing. This is fine with me, a libertarian, but then right-wingers are not consistent in opposing state power, and seem only to want to get hold of the controls themselves, rather than dismantle the bloody machine.

Dissident @ 15:

“So you want to see the end of Christianity too? Because that is a religion that’s guilty of everything you say about Islam…”

Historically, perhaps. But, regarding the present, you are not comparing like with like. Contemporary christianity has been diluted by the Reformation and extensive secularisation. Contemporary Islam is unreformed, unsecularised, deeply oppressive of women and gays, and is not only a religion but also a theocratic political ideology.

56. Ted, liberal

I am disgusted at any racist in any form, in the 21st century I would hope that a new culture should be accepted, respected and at the very least left alone.
But if said religion has, within it, a few extremists(psychopathic and misled) why should the whole religion be held acountable. Such is the chance given to Christianity in all its forms.

I do also feel it necessary to point out a more likely resaon for pub closure to Damon 16; I think any pub that closes down is more likely to be caused by a process known as “white flight”*, not the Islamic faith overpowering the owners of said pub(ethnic minorities are called minorities for a reason)

I am 13 years of age and even I realise the destruction that racism causes to groups and individuals, although I am amused by the fact that some Muslims don’t give a s*** and merely answer the hate with scornfull laughter, an aproach I deaply respect.

I believe that there are issues with segregation though caused by the EDL giving white a bad name, who likes a race that has shallow minded idiots as representatives in directly this causes immigrating communities to be unwilling to learn English (increasing segregation.

I am not religious myself but I can see (as my mother and her side of the family are) that faith is a powerful thing and should not be discarded as a motive.

I believe that a 21st century world should produce people like Dissident not Damon, shatterface and ED Love.

*White flight is the process of a person of a diffferent race moving in to a white community and the white people within that community leave saying cliches such as “There taking over”

57. Dissident

@ 55 TONE

“Historically, perhaps. But, regarding the present, you are not comparing like with like. Contemporary christianity has been diluted by the Reformation and extensive secularisation. Contemporary Islam is unreformed, unsecularised, deeply oppressive of women and gays, and is not only a religion but also a theocratic political ideology.”

How far back in history? 1 year, 10, 100? This country may have secularised, but scratch the surface and you will find fundamentalist Christians with deeply regressive, obnoxious – even downright psychopathic attitudes. Do you demonise all Catholics because of – for example the real IRA? Who you can tease apart in exactly the same way as radical Islamists. And if you go elsewhere around the world, to places this country exported its fundamentalists, (USA a prime example there) you find lots of Christian sects openly advocating Crusades and a reinstatement of the Inquisition, up to and including burning people at the stake! So should the average Granny who goes to church, volunteers for the jumble sale and brings in cut flowers to decorate the church be treated like a monster?

58. Dissident

@ Ted, liberal

Well said. Although to be fair to Shatterface, that blogger has Autism to at least some degree, and one of the aspects of the different neural architecture is a fear of anything different/out of the ordinary which can be empathised with. It doesn’t mean acceptance of some of that blogger’s outlook of course.

With regards to white flight that you have mentioned. It stems directly from ignorance. Instead of learning about and INTERACTING with new neighbours, far too many people choose to shun. It’s roots lie way back in our gibbering chimp days. Ignorance of others is tribalisms friend. It depends ultimately on the cognitive ability of people whether they let that ignorance lead to fear, which of course can trigger a fight or flight response. Once again, understanding doesn’t mean acceptance…

The reason I have my outlook btw is because from early adulthood I have met people from literally all over the world, both when I studied my degree and in most of the places I have worked. I chose to be open minded, and just treat people as people. It doesn’t take long to learn fear based on any form of ignorance is not just foolish, but wilfully spineless, especially when you form an opinion on melanin count, nose size, and eye colour, then consolidate an initial knee jerk reaction with Chinese whispers (ever play that game? Very informative about basing opinions on what person x says about person y)

59. Charlieman

@54. Richard Carey: “The main reason for this, I think, is that left-wing versus right-wing arguments miss the underlying conflict between state power and individual liberty.”

More or less agreed. Traditional left versus right arguments on power descend to about who is wielding it. Traditional left/right do not ask if power is bad; they assume that, always, somebody is powerful; they do not seek ways to negate power.

But is the status quo left wing? Typical bloke or lass on the street is more socially liberal than in recent life times. That isn’t left or right wing.

Group think is present in political parties. Group think plus power means that they implement (or conceive, in opposition) illiberal policies. They are not “left wing ideals”, just expressions of power.

The political status quo, as perceived today, was constructed in 1997 or 1983. Not particularly left wing times.

60. So Much For Subtlety

56. Ted, liberal

I am disgusted at any racist in any form

I strongly doubt that. I am willing to bet you are only disgusted by racism by White people. Not racism aimed at White people. You are, after all, a product of our PC schools with, it seems, a very limited understanding of anything your Trot teachers did not tell you.

But if said religion has, within it, a few extremists(psychopathic and misled) why should the whole religion be held acountable. Such is the chance given to Christianity in all its forms.

Not around here it isn’t. Around here the argument that a priest was nasty to a Native American woman back in 1503 is considered a clinching argument.

However the key word in your little pat PC speech is “if”. Care to justify it?

I believe that there are issues with segregation though caused by the EDL giving white a bad name, who likes a race that has shallow minded idiots as representatives in directly this causes immigrating communities to be unwilling to learn English (increasing segregation.

So there were no Punjabi women unable to speak English after living here for 30 years before the EDL came along? See my point about racism directed at Whites?

*White flight is the process of a person of a diffferent race moving in to a white community and the white people within that community leave saying cliches such as “There taking over”

From which we can see you are yet another Middle Class radical. White flight is misnamed. Because non-Whites are just as keen to fly. That is what drives it after all. Young non-White thugs reduce a neighbourhood until it is unliveable. Then the respectable, employed, non-White families seek to move somewhere better – ie more White. But they bring other non-Whites with them. It is fine until the non-Whites reach about 20-25 percent. Then thugs start appearing. Young men sit on the street and drink. They proposition every woman and girl who walks past. They smash things. Robberies go up. As if by magic. And then people who can afford to leave, leave. Anyone who can afford to do so – White or non-White. Which leaves behind the thugs who are talking about how depressing the neighbourhood is and the whole process starts again. It has a race-based name but it is not a race-based process.

Dissident

Do you demonise all Catholics because of – for example the real IRA?

The Real IRA are not a religious movement. They are a Marxist one. In the old days the Catholic Church simply excommunicated anyone who joined the IRA. You can see what the Catholics thought by looking at what Pope John Paul II said when he went to Ireland. He did what no Muslim leader has ever done:

“Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society …

On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace… Let history record that at a difficult moment in the experience of the people of Ireland, the Bishop of Rome set foot in your land, that he was with you and prayed with you for peace and reconciliation, for the victory of justice and love over hatred and violence.”

— Pope John Paul II Appeal to IRA in Drogheda, September 1979

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1979/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_19790929_irlanda-dublino-drogheda_en.html

And if you go elsewhere around the world, to places this country exported its fundamentalists, (USA a prime example there) you find lots of Christian sects openly advocating Crusades and a reinstatement of the Inquisition, up to and including burning people at the stake!

Sorry but why do you make this sh!t up? Produce the slightest piece of evidence that anyone wants to bring back the Inquisition or the stake. Your lies are so pathetic it is sad.

Dissident

With regards to white flight that you have mentioned. It stems directly from ignorance. Instead of learning about and INTERACTING with new neighbours, far too many people choose to shun.

Another Middle Class wannabe class warrior who has never experienced the joys of living in a mixed neighbourhood. No it is not. It stems directly from experience. In the neighbourhood where I used to live, people greeted the first immigrants with general tolerance and even some warmness – one little old lady made the first family to move in some scones. But cultures are different. Most people did not like, for instance, shirtless drunken teenage boys congregating on the street and asking every passing school girl if they would like to f**k. After a little bit of this, people started to look to the suburbs. It is not ignorance and it is not racism.

The reason I have my outlook btw is because from early adulthood I have met people from literally all over the world, both when I studied my degree and in most of the places I have worked.

Wow. You deal with nice Middle Class people so everyone must be a nice Middle Class person? Well that convinces me. Come and move into where I used to live. Sit in your home as bottles and thrown against your walls. Randomly of course. Nothing personal. Get woken at 3 in the morning by the welfare lads down the road fighting in the street until the ambulances come. Then tell me you enjoy the vibrant multicultural atmosphere.

It doesn’t take long to learn fear based on any form of ignorance is not just foolish, but wilfully spineless, especially when you form an opinion on melanin count, nose size, and eye colour

Except it is popular and growing. White people have given up hating non-White people on the grounds of race. Well, the BNP and some of the EDL apart. But non-White people have not given up hating White people. As you can see by the politics of pretty any non-White person. So you can stop hating them all you like. No one is going to care what sort of White person you are when it comes time.

61. Charlieman

@60. So Much For Subtlety

@56. Ted, liberal, told us that he was 13 years old. Hold back on total warfare, SMFS. Don’t attack him like you might attack me. In the old days of your imagination, like in 1963, I reckon that people considered the target before dropping the weapon.

62. Charlieman

56. Ted, liberal: “*White flight is the process of a person of a diffferent race moving in to a white community and the white people within that community leave saying cliches such as “There taking over””

I live in Leicester where 50% of the population are non-white. I live in a neighbourhood where non-whites are rare. I’m the only person on my street with two non-white neighbours. I live in a semi-detatched house.

I bought my house because it is on the fringe of the city and next to acres of open space. My house cost about the same or less than an inner city house of similar size etc. I bought it because I liked the house and the neighbourhood. My neighbourhood is a Leicester secret; nobody shouts about it being a good place.

Non-white people have moved into the area over the years. There are few rental homes so most are buying. People who are not local find it by chance, so the population changes gradually.


Suburban white flight, white people fleeing folks with other skin colour, is largely a USA concept; and I might be giving too much credence to the argument.

UK immigrants left the places where they first settled because they became a bit richer. Poor people — over the years, white Europeans, Jews, West Indians, whoever — lived in dismal housing and moved on when they could afford it. They moved to a better house, not to escape their neighbours.

63. Dissident

@ 60 SMFS

“Another Middle Class wannabe class warrior who has never experienced the joys of living in a mixed neighbourhood”

Try Bethnal Green, Brick Lane area, and Homerton, near the River Lea, East London, 20 years ago (so long before any ‘Gentrification’). Mixed race enough?

“Wow. You deal with nice Middle Class people so everyone must be a nice Middle Class person? Well that convinces me. Come and move into where I used to live. Sit in your home as bottles and thrown against your walls. Randomly of course. Nothing personal. Get woken at 3 in the morning by the welfare lads down the road fighting in the street until the ambulances come. Then tell me you enjoy the vibrant multicultural atmosphere.”

Wow you are such a bitter and twisted person aren’t you! Have you lived in a culturally and racially homogeneous former mining community because your statement there applies to just about all of them! I should know, I and my family have for decades… Mind you, on second thoughts maybe you are just manufacturing a victim complex from watching risible austerity-for-people-too-poor-to-fight-back propaganda like Skint…

“Sorry but why do you make this sh!t up? Produce the slightest piece of evidence that anyone wants to bring back the Inquisition or the stake. Your lies are so pathetic it is sad.”

Lies you say?

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2013/02/christian-fundamentalists-are-driving-our-country-into-the-dark-ages/

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2009/04/25/724473/-The-American-Inquisition-Gen-Boykin-Christian-Fundamentalism-and-Torture

http://www.politicususa.com/fundamentalist-christians-play-set-rules-defy-tenets-religion.html

How much further down that route do SOME of America’s Fundamentalists have to go?

“The Real IRA are not a religious movement. They are a Marxist one. In the old days the Catholic Church simply excommunicated anyone who joined the IRA. You can see what the Catholics thought by looking at what Pope John Paul II said when he went to Ireland. He did what no Muslim leader has ever done:”

Ok I’ll give you that one!

http://www.geni.com/projects/History-of-Irish-Republican-Army/8511

I was trying to go on how Protestant unionists and Catholic nationalists are portrayed in the media, NOT in class war terms. Maybe the media mislead people about its motivation? Yet bringing up the subject of Catholics does bring to mind the paedophile priest scandal. (Apologies to any Catholics for using this, but hey, it is SMFS, that moniker says it all!)

So now that I have mentioned it, if I truly wanted to be a bigoted scumbag I could have claimed that “All Catholics are *****s” on that basis. How can that be any different to the way ED”love” comments about Muslims grooming children? It is just another example of tarring an entire community because of the actions of a few. THAT is the point I’m trying to make, SMFS, understand?

64. So Much For Subtlety

63. Dissident

Wow you are such a bitter and twisted person aren’t you!

I don’t see why a description of the reality of much of London is so threatening to you that you would refuse to listen. Oh wait, yes I do.

Lies you say?

Yes lies.

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2013/02/christian-fundamentalists-are-driving-our-country-into-the-dark-ages/

Doesn’t contain a single mention of anyone wanting to bring back the inquisition or the stake. You are just citing websites at random.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2009/04/25/724473/-The-American-Inquisition-Gen-Boykin-Christian-Fundamentalism-and-Torture

Also does not contain a single reference to the Inquisition or to stakes. They seem upset because 1. an American Christian said that the Christian God was better than the Muslim one (Well, colour me pink, a Christian is actually a Christian? What will they think of next?) and 2. Christians are allowed to join the military.

You are just citing websites at random.

http://www.politicususa.com/fundamentalist-christians-play-set-rules-defy-tenets-religion.html

I do so enjoy hypocrits telling Christians what their religion “really” means. Although it is also strong on the hypocrisy of the Left when they object to people saying moderate Muslims need to speak out. Because what does it call for?

It is time for moderate, or real, Christians to speak out against fundamentalist hate, bigotry, and judgment that their avatar of love and charity condemned, because the only Christian voices Americans hear are fundamentalist hatemongers and their advocates in the hardline conservative movement. …. However, one hardly knows it because real followers of Christ’s silence that is either based in fear, or tacit approval, is clearly evident and the longer they stay silent, the more it appears they endorse anti-Christ agenda in fundamentalist Christianity.

How much further down that route do SOME of America’s Fundamentalists have to go?

Given they have not taken the first step on the road to stakes or the Inquisition, some while to go yet. You just lied. And are now citing websites at random.

I was trying to go on how Protestant unionists and Catholic nationalists are portrayed in the media, NOT in class war terms.

Nationalists aren’t Catholics. Well by and large they are, but there are Protestant Nationalists and Catholic Unionists.

Yet bringing up the subject of Catholics does bring to mind the paedophile priest scandal.

Because of decades of smears and lies. In reality children are safer with the Church than with secular authorities.

So now that I have mentioned it, if I truly wanted to be a bigoted scumbag I could have claimed that “All Catholics are *****s” on that basis.

You have just cited two websites and possible three that do precisely that so wouldn’t that make you a bigoted scumbag?

It is just another example of tarring an entire community because of the actions of a few.

Is it the actions of a few? We are in Afghanistan killing terrorists. Islamists. Yet we are told this radicalises ordinary Muslims who object to the killing of other Muslims. So the majority seem to see the minority as members of their community. Not as radicals or extremists but as Muslims like them. Isn’t that so?

Turks continue to protest in Turkey over a park. A small number of Muslims overseas continue to protest over the protests. But they didn’t protest over 9-11 or 7-7 did they?

65. Ted, liberal

@SMFS
“I strongly doubt that. I am willing to bet you are only disgusted by racism by White people. Not racism aimed at White people. You are, after all, a product of our PC schools with, it seems, a very limited understanding of anything your Trot teachers did not tell you”

Just because I am younger does not mean I take what my teachers say to be Gospel. I am although obviously liberal minded open to listening to the views of others.
I am not prepared to listen to your crap about ‘teachers trop’ just because I have been allowed to make a desition which other kids wouldn’t necessarily be able to make, my views on the world.

You are religious and have the right to your faith but to accuse another religion of being a as you seem to believe a terrorist organisation with stupid claims that there god tells them to do these atrocities, i would ask you to remember how many times the catholic pope has been asked for his blessing on a war. (the crusades, the spanish inquisition/armada)

Also a good percentage of your religious leaders were only in place for the sake of power.

If its religion then let’s debate and not accuse each other of things we have no way of knowing.

Dissident thanks for the positive feedback, i do not get much of that when i put my view across at school.

66. Ted, liberal

@SMFS
“You are, after all, a product of our PC schools with, it seems, a very limited understanding of anything your Trot teachers did not tell you”

I am unsure why i am taken to be “a product of our PC schools” rather than a human being with human views of the world. I have a fair view of the world that is not influenced by “trot teachers”

“From which we can see you are yet another Middle Class radical. White flight is misnamed. Because non-Whites are just as keen to fly. That is what drives it after all. Young non-White thugs reduce a neighbourhood until it is unliveable. Then the respectable, employed, non-White families seek to move somewhere better – ie more White. But they bring other non-Whites with them. It is fine until the non-Whites reach about 20-25 percent. Then thugs start appearing. Young men sit on the street and drink. They proposition every woman and girl who walks past. They smash things. Robberies go up. As if by magic. And then people who can afford to leave, leave. Anyone who can afford to do so – White or non-White. Which leaves behind the thugs who are talking about how depressing the neighbourhood is and the whole process starts again. It has a race-based name but it is not a race-based process.”

What? You think that you can flash some statistics in my eyes rather than stand up and defend your racist excuse for a mind and expect me to say “Oh, Why yes we shoul accept racism as those non-whites (a disgusting term as they were the first race not a product of us) raise crime in an area”.

“Not around here it isn’t. Around here the argument that a priest was nasty to a Native American woman back in 1503 is considered a clinching argument.”

Rubbish, there are many cases of racism much later than 1503,*cough whenwasslaverybanned cough* Hitler was christian for one thing.

oh and unless you are completely stupid you must have realised that the word \islam was never mensioned in my ‘PC Pat’ so for all you know I was talking about Christianity.

Cheers to dissident for positive feedback. It is always good to have your view respected.

67. Dissident

Some Christian fundamentalists are “educating” their children with the notion that indulging in heresy purges, crusades and inquisitions is acceptable, SMFS – in fact 70 million copies of the Left Behind series have been sold, mostly in America. It explicitly and implicitly glories in committing such crimes. Just like radical Islam. And like radical Islam it is trying to hark back to a simpler time, where presumably someone like you deludes yourself that you will be better off. A black & white, us & them, shepherd & sheep world just like the Old Testament (or as its close cousins, The Torah and Qu’ran)

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/6/19/232637/030

You keep showig us all evidence that you talk unto power. Whether it is the fossil fuel industry with regards to the inconvenient fact that CO2 acts as a thermal blanket in the atmosphere, or the governments assault on disabled and unemployed people in today’s austerity for the poor policies, or when ethnic minorities are demonised. It all indicates your obvious hatred of the real world. You even show hints of conspiracist ideation in your outlook. Pitiful. Really pitiful. Like the difference between a magnificent tree and a pruned and twisted bonsai!

Ted, liberal. SMFS is useful as a “valuable resource” however – that bloggers inherent hatred, denialism and cowardice is after all safely a few keyboard/Internet hops away. And can be countered, the same Internet that gives to you just about the sum total of our knowledge as a species.

68. Derek Hattons Tailor

@59 “But is the status quo left wing? Typical bloke or lass on the street is more socially liberal than in recent life times. That isn’t left or right wing.”

More “liberal” by what definition ? If you mean old school laissez fair (i.e genuine) liberalism you are wrong. People are far less tolerant of the diversity of others than they have been at any time since the 1950s. There are many more laws, and many more regulations over almost every aspect of life, magnitudes more data is held by all sorts of state and corporate players. Divergence from social norms is not tolerated. By the standards of the 1960s 1970s the state plays a massive and overbearing role in daily life, and its getting bigger.
It’s a common conceit of neo-liberals that we are more liberal than we used to be, but no-one can actually demonstrate it, other than to point to a lack of persecution for certain minorities, and the collapse of old institutions, conveniently forgetting that they have just been replaced by new ones. Freedom is relative, and most of the population have never been more controlled.

69. Quest of the Blatant Beast

Why is there only 21 seconds of the video? Is it to cut out anything else that was said?

Why was Sunny trawling the videos of a conspiracy theory nutter anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/user/scottishbadboy1

70. Dissident

@ 68 Derek Hattons Tailor

What you stated there about people been freer in the 60s & 70s, it is genuinely interesting as a statement, is it because of what I’ve heard of as the post war golden era? As I understand that, it was because of a combination of new tech/social concepts developed through WW2 and the sudden “freedom” of said technology becoming mainstream expanding people’s horizons? I don’t know myself. To me that is history. Obviously I am looking at today’s socio economic (and scientific/technological) parts. Which sometimes keeps me awake at night…

71. So Much For Subtlety

65. Ted, liberal

Just because I am younger does not mean I take what my teachers say to be Gospel.

If you were younger, and who knows, perhaps you are, you would have no actual experience of life or knowledge of much except what your teachers tell you.

You are religious and have the right to your faith

That is generous of you but actually I have not expressed any religious belief my word or deed whatsoever. You have no idea what I believe. You are inferring.

but to accuse another religion of being a as you seem to believe a terrorist organisation with stupid claims that there god tells them to do these atrocities, i would ask you to remember how many times the catholic pope has been asked for his blessing on a war. (the crusades, the spanish inquisition/armada)

And I would think most of us would say that those wars were religious. Which of course I can do here because it is only Christians. The leftist double standard is kind of silly. However your whatabouttery is irrelevant as all those Christians are dead. They have been dead for a long time. There are precisely no Christians left calling for violence. There are Muslims. So the question is who is blessing them? And it seems quite a lot of them.

Also a good percentage of your religious leaders were only in place for the sake of power.

Well that is childish.

Ted, liberal

I have a fair view of the world that is not influenced by “trot teachers”

Let me know when it shows up here.

What? You think that you can flash some statistics in my eyes rather than stand up and defend your racist excuse for a mind and expect me to say “Oh, Why yes we shoul accept racism as those non-whites (a disgusting term as they were the first race not a product of us) raise crime in an area”.

It is not racism. After all, non-Whites flee just as fast as they can too. That is what drives White Flight – it starts with a non-White who does not want to live near other non-Whites and so moves to a better neighbourhood. You don’t have to accept racism at all as in this case it does not exist except in your mind. The first race? So some races are better than others?

Rubbish, there are many cases of racism much later than 1503,*cough whenwasslaverybanned cough* Hitler was christian for one thing.

You misunderstand the point of that comment. Slavery had little to do with racism when it started and in places like Latin America. And of course Hitler was not a Christian. He was a Darwinist and an atheist.

72. So Much For Subtlety

67. Dissident

Some Christian fundamentalists are “educating” their children with the notion that indulging in heresy purges, crusades and inquisitions is acceptable, SMFS – in fact 70 million copies of the Left Behind series have been sold, mostly in America. It explicitly and implicitly glories in committing such crimes.

No it does not. There is simply no way that a Protestant group is ever going to praise the Inquisition and the whole point of the Left Behind series is that they do not have to do a damn thing because God is doing it for them. Now the chances you have read a single copy of one of the best selling series in recorded history is about zero so you are either making this up or you have read someone else who is making this up. Which is it?

Just like radical Islam.

There is suicide bombing in the Left Behind series? Where?

A black & white, us & them, shepherd & sheep world just like the Old Testament (or as its close cousins, The Torah and Qu’ran)

Not to mention your outlook on life.

It all indicates your obvious hatred of the real world. You even show hints of conspiracist ideation in your outlook. Pitiful. Really pitiful. Like the difference between a magnificent tree and a pruned and twisted bonsai!

Brilliant. You condemn believers for this sort of piddling Manichaean world view and then you prove why you are an apple that has not fallen far from that tree yourself. Except you do it with an ad hom. If you do not like my arguments, deal with my arguments. But of course you can’t. Hence the pathetic attempt at an insult.

73. Ted, liberal

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Hitler was if not the most devout one a christian.

“If you were younger, and who knows, perhaps you are, you would have no actual experience of life or knowledge of much except what your teachers tell you.”

Unless ,for example, i said hello to a person from another race and had a conversation with them. And actually you are assuming again that my teachers influence the way I think. Which is utterly ‘childish’ behavior. Also I have another source of information you failed to mention, MY FAMILY!(which is still fair because I have had debates with most of them)

“Let me know when it shows up here.”

*ahem* WHAT? You again try this on, I know how to give a balanced argument well enough, but on the subject of racism there is only ever one side I can choose.

“Well that is childish”

Is it? Is it really? The pope is the most powerful man in Italy.
http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/

74. Ian Carle

As The Specials sang in their song “It doesn’t make it all right”,”it’s the worst excuse in the world,and it,it doesn’t make it(racism)all right;just because you’re nobody”! The E-E-EDL boneheads look and sound just like their dads did in the nash-nash-National Front back in the days when that song was written.

75. Dissident

Being in denial SMFS? Read this and then look again at 20th and 21st century wars, and terrorist outrages, in which Christian fundamentalists glory as much as radical Islamists.
http://m.voices.yahoo.com/the-psychology-religiously-inspired-terrorism-741341.html

“Hoffman also points out that violent extremists convert a religion based on peace and justice into one of intolerant hatred (White 51). Illustrating his point perfectly in regard to white supremacy movement is a story form the book of Judges, Chapter 8. This is the story about the battle of Ai, in which God told Joshua to trap the warriors of the city, kill all of them, and then turn on the city. Today, no mainstream Jewish or Christian theologian argues that God would order such destruction. They argue that these stories were written by people who conquered Canaan and put a religious spin on their violent actions. However, violent religious extremists in the US read such stories and believe they are directed to kill all Jews and non-whites because of them (White 51).”

This is what Christian terrorist groups like KKK and Aryan Nations use to justify their actions. Are you going to claim these groups don’t exist?

“Similarly, Christian fundamentalists indoctrinate their future members through control of their early education. They either home school their children or send them to ultra- conservative Christian schools. Ultra-conservative Christian schools have the same ideals as their Islamic counterparts-they limit the children’s socialization, control what children learn by recitation and memorization of the Bible and denying exposure to modern scientific theories that would spark criticism of the schools and parents’ teachings (Blaker 8).

The ideology of children in religious fundamentalist families is pre-determined. Fundamentalist know too well that if their children learn to think on their own they might stray from their indoctrination. They ensure the continuation of their beliefs by securing adherents from among those closest to them, their children. It is done through years of authoritative mind control, which is scientifically proven to work best if started in early childhood (Blaker 9).”

in other words, how about this series of quotes attributed to a Jesuit…
“Give me the child, and I will mould the man.”
“Give me the child for seven years, and I will give you the man.”
“Give me the child until he is seven and I care not who has him thereafter.”
“Give me the child till the age of seven and I will show you the man.”

Or how about this?
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/295-164/11730-how-christian-fundamentalists-plan-to-teach-genocide-to-schoolchildren

This is the real purpose of the Left Behind series. It is part of the approved reading list for homeschooled children, or children put into ultra conservative christian schools, Those children then grow up to become what, precisely?
Take another look at the West’s war OF terror – in which even wedding celebrations are targeted for destruction.
http://bonniekristian.com/whats-wrong-with-our-drone-program-a-quick-explanation-starting-from-scratch/

From here you can access this…
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike

Of course you will claim that the majority civilian deaths of women & children is acceptable, and we only have the say so of the guilty parties that there were 27 “insurgents” at the wedding anyway.

Or this…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208307/Americas-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-killing-49-people-known-terrorist-Pakistan.html

Surely you will classify the DAILY MAIL as an unimpeachable source, given your well known outlook? or are you going to plug your ears up and go lalalalalalalalala?

76. So Much For Subtlety

73. Ted, liberal

Hitler was if not the most devout one a christian.

Your own source does not claim he was one of the most devout Christians. Nor in fact does it provide evidence that he was a Christian at all. As they admit his Table Talk makes clear he was not. His views were utterly incompatible with Christianity. He had no time for Christianity. His views were scientific and atheist.

Unless ,for example, i said hello to a person from another race and had a conversation with them.

I have talked to a doctor, doesn’t make me a heart surgeon. You’re 13. You haven’t had time to talk to anyone interesting yet. Of any race.

I know how to give a balanced argument well enough, but on the subject of racism there is only ever one side I can choose.

Let me know when you start. Good for you. PC to the core. What do you have to say about Somali racism towards Afro-Caribbean people?

Is it? Is it really? The pope is the most powerful man in Italy.

No he isn’t. Why are you wasting my time?

77. So Much For Subtlety

75. Dissident

Being in denial SMFS? Read this and then look again at 20th and 21st century wars, and terrorist outrages, in which Christian fundamentalists glory as much as radical Islamists.

Why would I need to be in denial? You have a case, but you are not making it. Some anonymous rant on the internet is hardly proof. Especially one that proceeds by asserting opinions as if they were facts and smearing everyone with the same brush. What Christian fundamentalists? Sure there maybe all of a dozen people who are in Aryan Churches in the whole of America. And eveyr decade some derranged nutcase may commit a murder that he claims is to do with what God told him, but so what? That does not prove a thing.

Today, no mainstream Jewish or Christian theologian argues that God would order such destruction.

Actually that is not true of mainstream Jewish theologians nor is it true of most, quietly spoken, Catholics and Orthodox theologians.

However, violent religious extremists in the US read such stories and believe they are directed to kill all Jews and non-whites because of them (White 51).”

And how many non-Whites have they killed lately?

This is what Christian terrorist groups like KKK and Aryan Nations use to justify their actions. Are you going to claim these groups don’t exist?

To all intents and purposes they do not. But more to the point, they are not Christian either.

Ultra-conservative Christian schools have the same ideals as their Islamic counterparts-they limit the children’s socialization, control what children learn by recitation and memorization of the Bible and denying exposure to modern scientific theories that would spark criticism of the schools and parents’ teachings (Blaker 8).

And yet suicide bombing rarely appears on these schools curriculum. Making them just a little bit different from some Islamic schools. This sort of false equivalence is more tiresome than boring.

The ideology of children in religious fundamentalist families is pre-determined. Fundamentalist know too well that if their children learn to think on their own they might stray from their indoctrination.

See, this is a good example of why you are losing. Do you have proof of this? The Protocols of the Elders of the Amish perhaps? No you don’t. Yet you claim this guy knows what Christians think.

Those children then grow up to become what, precisely?

Perfectly normal law abiding people. Can you please list all the acts of terrorism committed by the home schooled? Citing delusional weirdos on the internet does not make for proof.

Take another look at the West’s war OF terror – in which even wedding celebrations are targeted for destruction.

If people gather in large groups and then go outside and shoot their guns in the general direction of an attack helicopter, I am not sure it is the helicopter’s fault for thinking they are terrorists. But look how rare such incidents are. Because the West is not trying to kill civilians. The Islamists are. Which do you care about? Ahh, we know don’t we?

78. Ted, liberal

@SMFS

“No he isn’t. Why are you wasting my time?”

I apoligise I said that in the present not the past tense I of course ment ‘was’.

“He had no time for Christianity. His views were scientific and atheist.”

Right, you have no idea what his views were beyond his actions and I see nothing in post Jesus history to contradict a theroy of Christian hate until now.

Furthermore the bible contains a passage that reads:

“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable” (Leviticus 18:22) and “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads” (Leviticus 20:13).

So although no christian today would consider this morally right why is it in there in the first place? And if it is wrong how many other parts are also wrong?

“Let me know when you start. Good for you. PC to the core. What do you have to say about Somali racism towards Afro-Caribbean people?”

Ummm it’s wrong, have I not made my reaction to racial descrimination perfectly clear? Or do you not listen, I HATE RACISM, is that bloody clear enough?

“I have talked to a doctor, doesn’t make me a heart surgeon. You’re 13. You haven’t had time to talk to anyone interesting yet. Of any race.”

You misunderstand a simple point, I have talked to many people of a different race one of my best friends at scholl is of a different race my dentist is black for gods sakes I live in an area where there is lots of intolerance however I made my own mind up.

79. Dissident

SMFS

“And eveyr decade some derranged nutcase may commit a murder that he claims is to do with what God told him, but so what? That does not prove a thing.”

Yet someone claims to do so in the name of Allah (that is Islamic for God, just in case you are not aware), and it is suddenly proof that all Muslims are a danger. Then used as justification for advocating mass deportations or cluster bombing entire towns in another country. Don’t you see the double standard there? Please note it is claimed to be the obligation of a patriotic Christian to do just that. Is that the Christian thing to do at all, or über-Krischun perversion?

“Perfectly normal law abiding people. Can you please list all the acts of terrorism committed by the home schooled? Citing delusional weirdos on the internet does not make for proof.”

Imposing child killing sanctions is legal, cluster bombing is legal, drone attacks are legal, massacring retreating soldiers is legal, extraordinary rendition is legal. Behind most if not all these, legal, acts are the decisions of ultra conservative Christian fundamentalists. Many of them home schooled in the past, before they were put in positions of power because “their faces fit” to other fundamentalists further up the food chain.

“If people gather in large groups and then go outside and shoot their guns in the general direction of an attack helicopter, I am not sure it is the helicopter’s fault for thinking they are terrorists. But look how rare such incidents are. Because the West is not trying to kill civilians.”

See above. Ask yourself who is using terrorism.

please note that one of the justifications for murdering Lee Rigby is the actions of Britain and America in the Middle East in the first place! Tit for tat?

80. John Reid

There was a link on liberalconspiracy a few years ago to how many time the Nazis were close to the church, it wasn’t just the marching on the orders of god on their belt buckles, if anyone remembers the link I’d be grateful

81. Ted, liberal

@Dissident

Is it tit for tat when the soldiers in afghanistan, iraq are fighting for the country they occupy against the terrorists, not the people? And does that justify murder?
Btw just a question not trying to start a debate.

82. Dissident

@ Ted, liberal

It depends on how you define a terrorist really. That ultimately depends on who you ask, and what their agenda/experience is. According to some authorities it is any male aged 16-60 in Afghanistan. Pretty inclusive definition, imagine having to live there with some people targeting by such a parameter!

83. Ted, liberal

@Dissident
It’s scry that that is the parameter.

84. Richard Carey

I turn my back on this thread and it goes completely insane.

Ted, you’re talking nonsense about Christianity and the Nazis. Various Nazis were neo-pagans and very hostile to Christianity, an attitude cultivated in the Hitler Jugend. Hitler wasn’t into such things as far as I know, but he didn’t do anything to stop it, and the pagan values chimed well with his view of das Deutsche Volk. Himmler was into the occult, but, again, Hitler wasn’t apparently much interested. If you want to see the roots of Hitler’s eugenics programme, you should look at the Fabian Society.

85. thoughtful

Reading this thread it really saddens me that so many people have such strong opinons whilst knowing next to nothing yet believing they have the whole picture.

How many here are aware that the video of Adebolajo was doctored and that the full version was only available in free countries like the USA.

In it he claims that the Qur’an ‘forces us’ to do this (murder) and that in Surah Al Tawba (9) there are many many Ayas which support what he did.

Surah 9:29

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture

Surah 9:73

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

Surah 9:111

Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they slay and are slain.

Surah 9:81

Those who remained behind rejoiced in their staying [at home] after [the departure of] the Messenger of Allah and disliked to strive with their wealth and their lives in the cause of Allah and said, ‘Do not go forth in the heat.” Say, “The fire of Hell is more intensive in heat” – if they would but understand.

In other words those who refuse to fight Jihad will burn in hell.

Surah 9:95

They will swear by Allah to you when you return to them that you would leave them alone. So leave them alone; indeed they are evil; and their refuge is Hell as recompense for what they had been earning.

Surah 5:33

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Surah 8:12

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

This is the instruction to decapitate.

So there you have them, just a few of the verses from the Qur’an which inspired the two murderers of Lee Rigby, and despite what politicians might bleat about there being nothing in the Qur’an to justify this act, they are clearly lying.

Those Muslims who choose not to follow the teachings of the Qur’an and decline to engage in Jihad are promised eternal damnation and the fires of hell.

There are 164 jihadic verses in the Qur’an, and a whole load more in the Hadith where Muslims are encouraged to slaughter Jews & Gay people.

I cannot understand anyone not being opposed to this theology. The EDL mission statement is to oppose Jihad, and nothing else, granted there are some, akin to football hooligans and undoubtedly some racists who have aligned themselves with this, but they are not the majority.

If anyone doubts this they should take a look at the story of the York EDL demo when they ended up at a Mosque, had tea & biscuits and a game of football!

Don’t believe all you read or see & hear. Broadcasters like the BBC as so biased that much of their output is now just hate & lies, look at the Al-Rahma fire which the BBC have decided before investigation was a race hate crime!

Keep a free mind and buy a copy of the Qur’an (translated of course) for yourself just see if it really is the religion of peace.

86. So Much For Subtlety

78. Ted, liberal

I apoligise I said that in the present not the past tense I of course ment ‘was’.

That is a good example of wasting my time. He wasn’t.

Right, you have no idea what his views were beyond his actions and I see nothing in post Jesus history to contradict a theroy of Christian hate until now.

This is rubbish. His private views are well known and well published. You can read them in his Table Talk. He was not a Christian. End of story. Of course you don’t. Your problem, not mine. Christians have never hated on the basis of race – at least not the mainstream forms of Christianity and the Church that Hitler belonged to as a child.

Furthermore the bible contains a passage that reads:

Which is interesting but it doesn’t say to gas Jews does it?

So although no christian today would consider this morally right why is it in there in the first place? And if it is wrong how many other parts are also wrong?

I am not sure no Christian would say it was morally wrong and if you know nothing about Jesus, the fulfilment of the law and, essentially, the basis of Christianity, you have no place criticising them. If you know nothing about what they believe, you simply have no right to attack them for what you fail to understand.

You misunderstand a simple point, I have talked to many people of a different race one of my best friends at scholl is of a different race my dentist is black for gods sakes I live in an area where there is lots of intolerance however I made my own mind up.

Wow. Did you just say that one of your best friends is Black? This makes you an expert? As I said, you are too young to know anything yet. Allegedly. The fact that you know some other middle class people, all of two of them, is irrelevant.

Dissident

Yet someone claims to do so in the name of Allah (that is Islamic for God, just in case you are not aware), and it is suddenly proof that all Muslims are a danger.

It is not once in a decade and it is not an isolated act of a madman. Or even the act of a madman. There is a world of difference between an organised campaign by highly intelligent and motivated people and the random acts of a lunatic.

Then used as justification for advocating mass deportations or cluster bombing entire towns in another country. Don’t you see the double standard there?

As I have done neither, no I don’t. I see you flailing around in an attempt to maintain your hatred of mainstream British society.

Imposing child killing sanctions is legal, cluster bombing is legal, drone attacks are legal, massacring retreating soldiers is legal, extraordinary rendition is legal.

Indeed they are. If you want to call for an end to the State and some form of libertarian/anarcho-capitalist uptopia, please let me know. In the meantime I will go on assuming you do not have a problem with the State killing, just with White developed States killing.

Behind most if not all these, legal, acts are the decisions of ultra conservative Christian fundamentalists.

Madeline Albright was an ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalist? Which is odd because I thought she was a Jewish-born, Catholic-raise moderate Democrat. What do you know. Which ucCf would these be?

Many of them home schooled in the past, before they were put in positions of power because “their faces fit” to other fundamentalists further up the food chain.

Name two.

See above. Ask yourself who is using terrorism.

The terrorists. You know, the people you defend all the time.

Dissident

According to some authorities it is any male aged 16-60 in Afghanistan.

Name that authority. You make such pathetic stuff up.

Pretty inclusive definition, imagine having to live there with some people targeting by such a parameter!

Well that’s the Taliban’s fault. They should be a little more focused in their targeting. Like the West. I note not one word of condemnation from you for people who put bombs in Shia markets, who fire rockets indiscriminately into towns and who murder school girls.

Go figure.

87. So Much For Subtlety

80. John Reid

There was a link on liberalconspiracy a few years ago to how many time the Nazis were close to the church, it wasn’t just the marching on the orders of god on their belt buckles, if anyone remembers the link I’d be grateful

Their belt buckles were presumably a legacy from the German Empire, not from the Nazis.

But there is a simple way to test this, let’s play a game. Here are a series of quotes. They were said either by Adolf Hitler or Richard Dawkins. Guess which is which – and no cheating!

The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that’s left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

Originally, religion was merely a prop for human communities. It was a means, not an end in itself. It’s only gradually that it became transformed in this direction, with the object of maintaining the rule of the priests, who can live only to the detriment of Society collectively.

If in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It’s Christianity that’s the liar. It’s in perpetual conflict with itself.

When one thinks of the opinions held concerning Christianity by our best minds a hundred, two hundred years ago, one is ashamed to realise how little we have since evolved. I didn’t know that Julian the Apostate had passed judgment with such clear-sightedness on Christianity and Christians. You should read what he says on the subject.

The present system of teaching in schools permits the the following absurdity: at 10 a.m. the pupils attend a lesson in the catechism, at which the creation of the world is presented to them in accordance with the teachings of the Bible; and at 11 a.m. they attend a lesson in natural science, at which they are taught the theory of evolution. Yet the two doctrines are in complete contradiction. As a child, I suffered from this contradiction, and ran my head against a wall. Often I complained to one or another of my teachers against what I had been taught an hour before-and I remember that I drove them to despair.

Religion draws all the profit that can be drawn from the fact that science postulates the search for, and not the certain knowledge of; the truth. Let’s compare science to a ladder. On every rung, one beholds a wider landscape. But science does not claim to know the essence of things. When science finds that it has to revise one or another notion that it had believed to be definitive, at once religion gloats and declares: “We told you so!” To say that is to forget that it’s in the nature of science to behave itself thus. For if it decided to assume a dogmatic air, it would itself become a church.

Christianity set itself systematically to destroy ancient culture. What came to us was passed down by chance, or else it was a product of Roman liberal writers. Perhaps we are entirely ignorant of humanity’s most precious spiritual treasures. Who can know what was there?

88. So Much For Subtlety

And I will give you these for free – none of them were by Dawkins:

When I was younger, I thought it was necessary to set about matters with dynamite. I’ve since realised that there’s room for a little subtlety. The rotten branch falls of itself. The final state must be: in St. Peter’s Chair, a senile officiant; facing him, a few sinister old women, as gaga and as poor in spirit as anyone could wish. The young and healthy are on our side. Against a Church that identifies itself with the State, as in England, I have nothing to say. But, even so, it’s impossible eternally to hold humanity in bondage with lies. After all, it was only between the sixth and eighth centuries that Christianity was imposed on our peoples by princes who had an alliance of interests with the shavelings. Our peoples had previously succeeded in living all right without this religion. I have six divisions of SS composed of men absolutely indifferent in matters of religion. It doesn’t prevent them from going to their deaths with serenity in their souls.

Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a protoBolshevism. This intrusion upon the world marks the end of a long reign, that of the clear Greco-Latin genius.

I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding-bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. A negro with his tabus is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in Transubstantiation.

89. Ted, liberal

@SMFS
“That is a good example of wasting my time. He wasn’t.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_III

“Wow. Did you just say that one of your best friends is Black?”

No I said of a different race.

“This makes you an expert?”

No, did I say that? I merely stated that I can make my own mind up and have a better idea with People of other races around than if I was in a just white community.

“all of two of them,”

Again assuming, I mentioned 2, I did not say I know to black pepole.

90. So Much For Subtlety

89. Ted, liberal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_III

I do not see how a good Pope who sought to free the indigenous peoples of the Middle East from colonial oppression has anything to do with Hitler. Can you explain that for me?

No I said of a different race.

As a general rule, one of my best friends is … is not accepted as a good argument anywhere.

No, did I say that? I merely stated that I can make my own mind up and have a better idea with People of other races around than if I was in a just white community.

Based on knowledge of your dentist? As I said, you are too young to know anything yet except the PC crap your teachers force down your throat. You are even so young that you don’t know it yet.

But I will look forward to your condemnation of racism against Whites. Black-on-White crime is high and it is likely to have a racial animus behind at least some of it. Care to condemn that?

91. Ted, liberal

@SMFS

“I do not see how a good Pope who sought to free the indigenous peoples of the Middle East from colonial oppression has anything to do with Hitler. Can you explain that for me?”

That is ,unless you did not read the quote, is a reference to the fact that, no matter how much you deny it that many of the popes in history were more powerful in italy and other roman catholic countries than the Kings/Queens.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/history/borgias/2.html

1492-1503 who ruled as pope?

http://listverse.com/2010/02/23/10-people-who-give-christianity-a-bad-name/

Christian terrorism, above, some of them will make you cringe. At boston two people died of a bomb attack. I was deeply upset though to find out it was only clled terrorism after the perpertraitors were foun to be Muslim. So when (@3) the narcissist Jim Jones orchestrated the mass suicide of 909 people (took poison) and he himself shot himself through the head, why was that not terrorism?

Because he was american.
Want proof?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Makes you think doesn’t it, what is the point of religion?

Corrupt popes,homophobes, narccisit killers, terrorists and crap fed war leaders leaving to retake the holy land.
This does not sound very peace filled does it? You say taht mainsream christianity has always taught a message of peace but mabie those 909 would not be dead if God (if he exists) had not given people a motive/excuse for torture and power?

92. So Much For Subtlety

91. Ted, liberal

That is ,unless you did not read the quote, is a reference to the fact that, no matter how much you deny it that many of the popes in history were more powerful in italy and other roman catholic countries than the Kings/Queens.

Ahh, that is where you were going with that. The Popes ruled about a third of Italy at the time. So you’re making a completely uninteresting and unoriginal point about something that I doubt you even understand.

I was deeply upset though to find out it was only clled terrorism after the perpertraitors were foun to be Muslim.

Actually you have that exactly wrong – the media refuses to call Muslims terrorists if they can avoid it. In this case they were quick to call the attack terrorism, but they were holding out for a White Christian to have done it. They were disappointed when it turned out to be Muslims.

So when (@3) the narcissist Jim Jones orchestrated the mass suicide of 909 people (took poison) and he himself shot himself through the head, why was that not terrorism?

No idea. But I tell you what, when Imams and other Muslim leaders stop envouraging suicide attacks and instead lead their followers to peaceful mass suicide, I will stop complaining about terrorism.

Makes you think doesn’t it, what is the point of religion?

It doesn’t make me think that. After all, the biggest mass killers in human history have been atheists and leftists. The Spanish Inquisition killed as many people in the several hundred years of its rule as Mao killing in the Great Leap Forward every few hours. Pol Pot the same. But for some reason Leftist atheists don’t mind Mao and Pol Pot while they object to harmless Popes.

Go figure.

Corrupt popes,homophobes, narccisit killers, terrorists and crap fed war leaders leaving to retake the holy land.
This does not sound very peace filled does it?

So what? Not that your description of the people involved is anything other than delusional. Grown up societies have to protect the weak from the predatory. That is why we have policemen – and why we have armies. The West tried to save the Christians of the East and failed. Pity.

You say taht mainsream christianity has always taught a message of peace

No I don’t and didn’t.

If you cared about human life, you would condemn Marxism. You don’t.

i would like to know why this has been edited and where the full version of this video is?? because maybe the person speaking who said “send the black cunts home” were referring to someone who was black and who had been involved in terror,therefore, in my eyes and lots of peoples eyes this is not racist….if the man is black and committed a crime and is from another country then that’s what this person was saying……if someone called me white i would not have a problem because i am white and proud to be white so why if someone says a black person is black is it racist??

i support the edl but that does not make me racist or anything other it just makes me want to be able to speak up and be counted in a world whereby our British culture and beliefs are being ridiculed and nothing from the government is being done about it…proud to support edl x

EDl you fuckin bitches if you dare try and attack muslims like what happend to lee rigby your going to be killed like you got beaten up in brick lane! YOU FUCKIN MORONS!!!! DONT START ON INNOCENT PEOPLE!!! THE POEOPLE WHO ARENT INNOCENT ARE USE! JUST REMEMBER THAT!

EDL YOU WONT GET AWAY!!!!!!!! FROM ME!!!! MWWWWAHAHAHA I GOT MY KNIFE AND BIG DA READY TO CHOP YOUR NECK OFF!

96. Found this dumb page on Google

47. So Much For Subtlety
“Or look at a journalist like Lyse Doucet who cried when Arafat died and has said we should concentrate more on the humanity of the Taliban.”

Misguided Dip$#it — It wasn’t Lyse Doucet and the journalist to whom you are alluding (look up the big words) didn’t cry or mention the Taliban.

97. COMMON SENSE WITHOUT THE SPRINKLES

I have no affiliation to left, right, groups, religions etc

I’m liberal on things, conservative on things, old fashioned on things and modern on things.

I’m in my 30s, always lived in a city. Sat on the working class/middle class border and can get on with the upper and lower ends of the scale easy and comfortably

My bug bear is bull shit. If a question is being asked then answer it. If you are not asking or answering ,for whatever reason, then shhhh. Maybe you don’t know enough on it! That’s fine but do not shout insults about or get self righteous. Everybody has the right to ask and answer. From any direction it’s ignorant and ugly to be on your high horse coz ya don’t agree. Free speech is for all.

I find this video common sense and a valid side to a much bigger question/questions.
In balance to the video my opinion is if Jihad is what floats their boat then whatever. It’s their life and at end of the day EVERYBODY’S shit stinks

http://youtu.be/Oz267A6jhbw


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