Did Muslims in Oldham ‘celebrate’ Woolwich attack?


2:30 pm - May 23rd 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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The latest rumour, following the Woolwich attack, is that Muslims in Oldham are out on the streets and ‘celebrating’ the Woolwich attack.

The claim is being spread by the official EDL account and EDL activists, has kicked off on Twitter and Facebook.

But it is untrue.

Update: I now have a screenshot of most of these Tweets.

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[Tweets that don’t show up have been deleted]
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But Greater Manchester Police confirmed no such celebration.

In fact they denied any such ‘celebrations’ were taking place.

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So now the English Defence League have been caught actively spreading lies in order to cause more tension and violence.

And confirmation from others

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


Doesn’t inciting hate with the intention of causing a riot get you arrested?

With the media taken over by reports of the Jihadist murder in Woolwich, not many have noticed that on the front page in Thursday’s FT:

“The IMF said that the banks had not yet been fixed and were hampering the Bank of England’s attempts to spur growth.”

This had all the hallmarks of a classic John Rentoul QTWTAIN.

4. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 1 Laz

Doesn’t inciting hate with the intention of causing a riot get you arrested?

Oh I do hope so.

Sunny

Deleting comments pointing out a mistake, while silently editing the article is one thing.

But hey, couldn’t you at least edit the article to make sense?

“But Greater Manchester Police confirmed no such thing” should probably follow a tweet of someone claiming GMP said something…

What are you, Guido? Show some integrity!

6. Man on Clapham Omnibus

This is getting really exciting! Not!!

EDL are just a bunch of pathetic idiots who clearly have nothing better to do then sit there and make up stories…. We have had riots in Oldham and a lot of people got hurt, I do not want my children around this kind of behaviour. When will they realise they are making things worse?! The state that David Cameron is causing all this drama yet they go on to lie about a supposed Muslim parade around Victoria Street. YOU IDIOTS….GET A GRIP OF LIFE AND DO SOMETHING BETTER WITH YOURSELF!

Ok, let me get this farce straight:

1. The Police interpret celebrations as unrest?… How do they know all celebrations happening in the city? They can’t even uncover child sex-grooming even when it’s right in their faces!

2. Dave Sykes claims he lives in Oldham and “nothing” is happening. Again, how does he know nothing is happening? The EDL members who reported the celebrations ALSO live in Oldham.
Does Dave Sykes know every incident that happens on every street and building in Oldham?

Tim, I think 100s of celebrating muslims being dispersed by police of Victoria streets are likely to be obvious.

Also, if police are allegedly dispersing them, I would hope the police would know!

should be *”police on Victoria street”

Police could not discover an incest grooming sex- and drug ring involving 2400 children for ten years, whilst so many complaints were reported, so yes I do see a very strong potential that they wont bother with anyone celebrating…

12. muslimthoughts

guys not all muslims are terrorists. there is a rumour going around saying that all muslims are gonna be kicked out of the uk, why? theres no reason. everybody thinks all muslims should take the blame. i admit our people have done horrific acts but remember Islam means peace. 87% of muslims are proud to be british not every muslim is cruel. we could say the same to christians and catholics but we choose not to, because god created all of us to be peaceful.

muslimthoughts: Lol…. There is nothing that makes people laugh more than Islam being called peaceful. After 14 centuries and 350 MILLION muslim slaughters during forced occupations and looting – don’t you think it’s a rather daft thing to say?
People do want Muslims to be removed. A practicing Muslim is a follower of Sharia principles, which endorses this kind of murders and hate. Otherwise he won’t agree to it or follow it. Practicing Muslims should never have been allowed. Asylum should only been given to apostates, and with more protection for them from harassment and threats.

Tim, so you agree the EDL are wrong then?

Bring back the death penalty. Muslims are scum bags.
No wonder every 1 with money leaves this country we are no longer England more like Englandstan

16. nofrills

Here’s a screengrab of King Eric’s deleted tweets if you like:
http://t.co/Mbq5stpDG7

17. dave harris

Do you know what we call the sort of people who carried out yesterday’s attack in Malaysia, a muslim country?

We call them criminals.

18. Oldham_muslim

I’m a proud oldhamer and I can assure you there no no such act, edl are utter scum and I suggest everyone should acknowledge that. I’m also a muslim and we all are totally against extremist of any race and religion. People in Oldham are peaceful, yes you do get the odd person who lets us down. People don’t judge majority by the acts of a minority. Edl just fuel situations to encourage hatred against Islam. God Bless you all

19. Oldham_muslim

@Epicxr your lack of intelligence intrigues me, I would expect that from a child, visit Oldham and speak to our youths they have a far better mentality than it seems you’ll ever have.

20. white trash

If what EDLers said were true they ought to be able to put up a video, or at the very least a photo.

But no. It looks like they’re talking out their backsides as usual.

Front up or shut up.

[deleted]

23. mike cobley

sigh – are there any moderators out there?

24. white trash

[deleted]

25. Oldham_muslim

[deleted]

26. Shatterface

[deleted]

[deleted]

28. Uncle Beelzebub

[deleted]

29. margin4error

Tim
That figure for Muslims being killed by Muslim regimes seems rather a small number compared the the equivelent totals of this slaugtered by Christian regimes.

30. Enlightened Patriot

And so we are to believe statements put out by GM police?

[deleted]

32. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 27 tina

You’re not that Tina Wingnut are you?

33. white trash

[deleted]

Was in oldham town centre absolutely nothings going on. just right wing morons spreading lies to divide us. go on then guys prove me wrong on put up photos/videos? never gonna happen because youre talking out of youre backsides.

[deleted]

36. Oldham_muslim

I work in Oldham town centre, there was no sign of conflict or any protests, people need to open their eyes, edl are just trying to take advantage of this situation to create havoc in our towns.

37. the a&e charge nurse

I don’t know if muslims in Oldham were high-fiving but it looks like Omar Bakri Mohammed was?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-suspect-was-inspired-by-cleric-banned-from-uk-after-urging-followers-to-behead-enemies-of-islam-8630125.html

According to the Indie article ‘The cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed has been secretly filmed stating that decapitation of the enemies of Islam was permitted’ – OBM threw in for good measure ‘to people around here [the Middle East] he is a hero for what he has done’.

If only there was an ultimate islamic authority who could tell us if OBM really understands his religion, or if he is just making it up as he goes along, especially the bits about beheading people he doesn’t like?

You cant judge a book by his cover so regarding the murder of innocent man was wrong bit the edl are not helping but influencing others so are the terrorist? Edl? Or muslims? I fink u u will find your anwser if u ask ureself?

39. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 26 Shatterface

Oi. No taking the piss out of Sunny’s journalistic decency.

40. Uncle Beelzebub

@ Sunny

Don’t worry, I’m keeping a list. Misattribution of “Heil Hitler” quote, disingenuous reference to fatty Staines being pixelated out on telly, disappearing posts…

We need a blog regulator to ensure that readers of UK blogs get fair treatment.

41. white trash

Independent: “One of the men was stopped from travelling to Somalia to join the Islamist militia Al-Shabaab last year.”

Well this is marvellous isn’t it.

So our security services stop a man from going abroad to kill people, and then let him free to roam the streets in England so he can kill people here instead!

Not much use are they.

so an attention whore kills someone another attention whore says congrats and some more attention whores – EDL – rub their hands in glee. dont feed the trolls.

oh and religions dont cause people to kill people make their own decisions

43. So Much For Subtlety

12. muslimthoughts

guys not all muslims are terrorists.

I do not think anyone says they are. On the other hand, every survey seems to show a very high level of support among Muslim communities for terrorism.

there is a rumour going around saying that all muslims are gonna be kicked out of the uk, why? theres no reason. everybody thinks all muslims should take the blame.

Well obviously there is a reason. It may be a bad one, it may be unjust, but it is a reason. Eventually this is going to become a mainstream demand in the UK. I would start to think about how you want to deal with it. And no, not everybody thinks all Muslims should take the blame. But on the other hand, we cannot tell Muslims who are terrorists from Muslims who support Muslims from Muslims who do neither. Only the Muslim communities can do that. And they are not conspicuously trying are they?

i admit our people have done horrific acts but remember Islam means peace.

They made a desert and called it peace.

87% of muslims are proud to be british not every muslim is cruel.

That still leaves tens of thousands of Muslims who are not.

we could say the same to christians and catholics but we choose not to, because god created all of us to be peaceful.

No you couldn’t because Christians do not go around beheading drummer boys.

dave harris

Do you know what we call the sort of people who carried out yesterday’s attack in Malaysia, a muslim country?

We call them criminals.

Unless of course their name is Datuk Seri Panglima Hishammuddin bin Tun Hussein or Dato’ Sri Haji Mohammad Najib bin Tun Haji Abdul Razak. Then they can hold up a knife at an UMNO event such as their Youth League AGM or even UMNO’s AGM and promise to bathe it in Chinese blood. Even on national TV. And all they will get is elected.

So we call them criminals. Malaysians call people who say that May 13 needs to be re-acted the Minister of Defence. By the way, how many people were convicted for the riots?

Oldham_muslim

People don’t judge majority by the acts of a minority. Edl just fuel situations to encourage hatred against Islam. God Bless you all

To quote SNL, another thing causing hatred against Islam this week – terrorism. By all means, let us not judge the majority by the acts of a minority. That applies to Israel too right? It applies to the West as well right?

44. Charlieman

@37. the a&e charge nurse: “If only there was an ultimate islamic authority who could tell us if OBM really understands his religion, or if he is just making it up as he goes along, especially the bits about beheading people he doesn’t like?”

I agree that it is tricky. Even when there is an authority, Catholic couples make up their minds about the form of contraception to use. Religious followers such as Anglicans and Reform Jews make up their minds more defiantly about life choices.

Making up our own minds is what we do in life. Don’t tell me what to do! Thus we succeed or fail.

Cutting off heads is rarely a feature in life. Or non-life. This is the only type of debate in which I have considered beheading.


Is non-hierarchy within Islam a problem or an opportunity for liberal moslems?

It is assumed that congregations who attend Muslim sermons by “swivel eyed loons” attend because they are followers. Might it not be that spectators are as intrigued as we are about the preacher?

45. So Much For Subtlety

Has anyone else pointed out that the police are denying protests and demonstrations, not celebrations?

Twitter spreads rumours. Bad Twitter. That does not mean that the law is the sensible solution. After all Nick Griffin was jailed for spreading rumours designed to cause racial hatred. He accused gangs of Asian men of grooming and raping White girls.

He was right wasn’t he? Perhaps we should have listened to argued with him, not silenced him through the law? This accusation is unlikely to be true in my opinion. But then I thought that about Nick Griffin too. Let’s see before we ban, hmmkay?

46. s saleem

i am a Muslim from Oldham, we have just spent the entire evening gathering youngsters and explaining how there is a clear distinction between what happened and the teachings of Islam,Please do not spread lies to create aggravation in our societies.

“Eventually this is going to become a mainstream demand in the UK.”

No it isn’t.

But it might be nice to see hate preachers and those student Islamic societies and mosques who invite them to speak given a slightly harder time!

48. English_Muslim_Convert

Firstly tim the figure of 350 million “slaughtered” by muslims/Islam is from the book “tears of jihad” which has been refuted completely….even using the references given in the book you will see the truth (one bit talks about population in India and claims that an 80 million decrease in 500 years MUST be down to muslims).
Then we go onto sex gangs…firstly the number you gave was fabricated and exaggerated…I totally condemn all “terrorist attacks” and “child abuse” by anyone not just a muslim….I focus on the whole picture and not just my own racist agenda.

@13
“Lol…. There is nothing that makes people laugh more than Islam being called peaceful. After 14 centuries and 350 MILLION muslim slaughters during forced occupations and looting – don’t you think it’s a rather daft thing to say”?

Ah, the usual moronic guff that deliberately overlooks those atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity (the examples are legion), Hinduism and Buddhism (Sri Lanka) in order to promote a warped narrative that only Muslims are ‘evil’.

You’ve been rumbled. Give it a rest.

buddyhell – good name for you.

You need to stop reading the Sun or the Mirror.

If you actually read actual history you would discover that nearly ALL religious wars involve wars against Muslim invasion and violence. The Spanish inquisition involved Islam. Even the Holocaust has a Muslim finger in it (al-Hussaini). The information (=facts) are there for anyone to access.

Whether it is Christians, jews, Buddhists, Hindus – it is Islam that have slaughtered these people throughout history.

Here is the peaceful actions by Muslim leaders through history. And not much has changed.

Chronological Jihads
The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)
The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)
The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians – modern Sudanese (650)
The Jihad against pagan Berbers – North Africans (650 to 700)
The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)
The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)
The Jihad against Franks – modern French (720 to 732)
The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)
The Jihad against Chinese (751)
The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)
The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)
The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)
The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)
The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)
The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)
The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)
The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)
The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)
The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)
The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)
The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)
The Jihad against Albania (1332 – 1853)
The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)
The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)
The Jihad against Austria (1500 – 1683)
The Jihad against Germany (1529 – ongoing)

Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)
The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)
The Jihad against America (9/11/2001)
The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)
The Jihad against Denmark (2005 cartoon controversy onwards)
The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)
The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)
The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)
The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)
The Global Jihad today (2001 – ongoing)

And the United States, constantly pelted as the aggressor by Muslims, have been subject to Muslim terrorism EVERY YEAR since 1970. From 2009 the U.S. security services has been uncovering at least two cases a month.

MI5 have made over 2000 arrests between 2001-2009 related to Muslim terrorism.

Stop whitewashing these warring, aggressive and hateful people.

Has anyone here read this academic history of Jihadism?

Michael Bonner: Jihadism in Islamic History (Princeton University Press 2008)
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

52. Chaise Guevara

@ 50 Tim

“If you actually read actual history you would discover that nearly ALL religious wars involve wars against Muslim invasion and violence. The Spanish inquisition involved Islam. Even the Holocaust has a Muslim finger in it (al-Hussaini). The information (=facts) are there for anyone to access.

Whether it is Christians, jews, Buddhists, Hindus – it is Islam that have slaughtered these people throughout history.”

Go on then, show us this information (=facts) that prove Islam is the cause of the Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition.

Hint: proving that there was a Muslim or two among the baddies won’t do it. Although I’m fascinated to know how even that could be true of a Catholic purge of people deemed not quite Catholic enough.

There are extensive precedents for Islamic attacks on western places and people going back centuries. The propagated claim that Islam is a peaceful religion is a complete myth with no basis in historical reality.

Recall the opening lyrics of the US Marine Corps marching song: From the halls of montezuma / To the shores of tripoli;

“the shores of tripoli” is a reference to the first engagements of the fledgling US Navy in 1801/05 against Barbary Coast pirates, who had been attacking American merchant ships trading in the Mediterranean.

As a matter of record, the pirates raided coastal areas in the north Mediterranean and along the Atlantic coast of Europe, as far north as Ireland and southern England, to seize booty and capture slaves. Young women captives were especially valued for sale into the white slave trade. Historians estimate the number of slaves captured over the decades in which the barbary coast pirates flourished as between 800,000 to 1.25 million people.

For comparison, slavery was declared unlawful in England in the Mansfield judgement in the Somersett case in 1772. Parliament voted to ban the slave trade in 1807 and to ban slavery throughout the British empire in 1833, the year Wilberforce died. Christians of the Clapham Sect, to which Wilberforce belonged, had been extensively engaged in the campaign against slavery for decades before Parliament finally voted to ban the trade – after, it might be noted, the Royal Navy had established naval supremacy at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

Try this on: Slavery in the Middle East
http://www.meforum.org/189/slavery-in-the-middle-east

The fact is that Islam was spread by the sword – for example the invasion of Spain by the Moors in 715. Buddhism, the prevailing religion in western China, was displaced by Islam imported by settlers from south west asia.

54. shaunthebrummie

and you think i believe the police….ask them about the response to the grooming of young girls by MUSLIMS..girls told by the police..if they continued to complain..they’d be done for wasting police time…lying toerags…like the politicians we have…only 1 or 2 any good….

55. shaunthebrummie

muslimthoughts…what do you think of the groomers..all muslims…and following the korans words…all non beleivers can be raped or killed…best thing that can happen is a christian/western democratic nations war…and the removal of the disease from the west…and sent back to the deserts where they belong….

56. Chaise Guevara

OK, seriously, I wander away from this site for like a few weeks and when I come back it’s covered in the dribblings of racist idiots. It’s all “go back where they came from” this and “ho, Muslim, you must answer for the crimes of all other Muslims” that. Sunny, did you make a deal with Have Your Say where you take on half of their comments in exchange for spare bandwidth or something?

I am, however, relieved to see that Bob B still has a great big file of Bad Things Done By Muslims and is very eager to tell you about it. Some things never change.

Chaise: “I am, however, relieved to see that Bob B still has a great big file of Bad Things Done By Muslims and is very eager to tell you about it.”

That’s to your usual standard of trying to settle debates by personal abuse.

I take a special interest in economic issues as well as the histories of the ways that the followers of religious faiths have inflicted harm on humanity – hence my strictures about Christian sects as well as Islam. And perhaps I follow and note the relating news and documentaries more diligently than most.

Your response to the critical arguments made with documentation about whether Islam is a peaceful religion would be more impressive if you addressed the case showing the continuing violent disposition of Islam throughout its history.

58. So Much For Subtlety

46. s saleem

i am a Muslim from Oldham, we have just spent the entire evening gathering youngsters and explaining how there is a clear distinction between what happened and the teachings of Islam,Please do not spread lies to create aggravation in our societies.

What lies? But by all means. You first.

English_Muslim_Convert

Firstly tim the figure of 350 million “slaughtered” by muslims/Islam is from the book “tears of jihad” which has been refuted completely….

Refuted by whom precisely?

even using the references given in the book you will see the truth (one bit talks about population in India and claims that an 80 million decrease in 500 years MUST be down to muslims).

Every single Muslim account of the conquest of India is full of lists of cities that have been sacked and the people therein murdered or sold into slavery. Even the accounts of Sufi saints can rarely avoid mentioning the Sufi slaughtered the pagans. And they all think this was a good thing. It is perfectly reasonable to look at the long gone civilisations of Pakistan and take those histories at face value.

buddyhell

Ah, the usual moronic guff that deliberately overlooks those atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity (the examples are legion), Hinduism and Buddhism (Sri Lanka) in order to promote a warped narrative that only Muslims are ‘evil’.

What atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity? Or Buddhism for that matter. You have to admit Islam is kind of unique in this respect. It has rarely spread except through violence and conquest – but above all, it is virtually the only religion that is still proud of it.

The EDL should be ashamed of it’s actions in the aftermath of the Woolwich attack. The area and in fact the country was in a state of shock over the murder of Lee Rigby and these glorified football hooligans tried to take advantage of raw emotions to spread their agenda and cause violence.

I’m not saying that Islam in the UK should be immune from scrutiny but time has to be allowed to gather all the facts and also to allow people to digest the news. Those two murderers would love to see fighting on the street. They will be licking their lips at the sight of mosques being attacked as it ‘justifies’ their deluded cause in their minds.

Too many people are being self important and making this atrocity all about themselves and the agenda they are trying to push. Lets just think about the family who lost a loved one in such appalling circumstances and endeavour to keep that violence away from our streets, not encourage it.

Through history Muslims have always been the biggest and worse aggressors, invading, pillaging, looting and murdering other people completely unprovoked. And they continue even to this day. Look at Thailand, Indonesia, Burma, India where Muslims always pretend to be victims, as always, but are the aggressors and commit a Woolwich on a daily basis.

Muslims have murdered so many people that all of humanity put together can’t compete with the numbers.

Here are only a few of Muslim initiated battles and conflicts since the religion was established:

Chronological Jihads
The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)
The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)
The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians – modern Sudanese (650)
The Jihad against pagan Berbers – North Africans (650 to 700)
The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)
The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)
The Jihad against Franks – modern French (720 to 732)
The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)
The Jihad against Chinese (751)
The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)
The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)
The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)
The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)
The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)
The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)
The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)
The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)
The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)
The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)
The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)
The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)
The Jihad against Albania (1332 – 1853)
The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)
The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)
The Jihad against Austria (1500 – 1683)
The Jihad against Germany (1529 – ongoing)
Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)
The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)
The Jihad against America (9/11/2001)
The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)
The Jihad against Denmark (2005 cartoon controversy onwards)
The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)
The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)
The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)
The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)
The Global Jihad today (2001 – ongoing)

And let’s not forget America. Muslims always point fingers at America as an aggressor against them. It’s the other way around. Muslims have threatened and commit terror deed against Americans YEARLY since 1970. And their first attack on Americans was in 1753.

Fact is that Islam is a very hostile and hateful religion. It generates huge problems. And anyone would be stupid not to be concerned over a people who openly claim their dedication to Islam, a ‘faith’ that endorses sodomy of children, murder of apostates, bestiality, rape and oppression of women, honor murders, torture of animals, beheading, cutting of hands and feet and idolize the murder of non-Muslims as heroic acts that takes them to heaven.

Our prisons are full of Muslims. But what kind of Muslims? Apostates? No, not apostates. Practicing Muslim.
Islam doesn’t belong in the western world and will never live in harmony with or for democracy, since these principles are forbidden in Islamic law. They need to be deported.

So what exactly are they doing here? What are their intentions of being here if everything we are and everything we do is haram to them? People have to look beyond the surface. Why have they asked asylum from oppression they claim to have endured, while continuing to practice the very source of it? Their presence here is not well-intended. They want to import Islam here. And we had a small glimpse of what that entails in Woolwich.

Sorry I noticed other people had unearthed the same list I posted from religion of peace. A bit of a repeat there.

63. Chaise Guevara

@ 57 Bob B

“That’s to your usual standard of trying to settle debates by personal abuse.”

Whereas your raison d’etre of trying to settle arguments by posting cherry=picked articles, normally without the cojones to explain the point you’re trying to make, is WAY better.

“Your response to the critical arguments made with documentation about whether Islam is a peaceful religion would be more impressive if you addressed the case showing the continuing violent disposition of Islam throughout its history.”

I did, to you, in another thread. Half of LC seems to be covering this issue at the moment.

Chaise Guevara@ “Go on then, show us this information (=facts) that prove Islam is the cause of the Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition.
Hint: proving that there was a Muslim or two among the baddies won’t do it.”

OK. The usual ignorant denials by appeasers which never has any basis in knowledge.

Here you go and you don’t even have to look far.

The Spanish inquisition:

“The Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

They had endured Muslim slaughters and aggression, and were forcing Islam out to get rid of the disease once and for all.

And the Muslim finger in the Holocaust did not contain “a Muslim or two” but entire armies of Muslims stepping in to help realize the holocaust and plod the Germans to commit entire genocide of jews. The holocaust was taken as a format from the Armenian genocide.
Nazi Collaborators – The Grand Mufti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZtWFZm_dWs

There are more books on Hitler’s association with the Grand Mufti who had tried to engage Britain, France, Italy and Russia to commit a holocaust. They declines. Only Germany responded.

So there you go. There is a Muslim hand in ALL our past history and battles.

So Much for Subtlety

“What atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity?”

Well off the top of my head how about the various massacres of Jews, Greeks, Muslims, Heretics etc during the various Crusades. Or the Conquest of South and Central America by the Spanish. Not to mention the Inquisitions and other heretic trials throughout Europe. Oh and lets not forget that one justification for the British Empire was bring “superior” Christian civilisation to the less civilised and savage.

Try this news report in The Guardian on Friday:

UK ordered to hold inquests into civilian deaths during Iraq war

High court rules that up to 161 allegedly unlawful killings by British military should be subject of coroner-style hearings [Guardian: 24 May 2013]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-iraq-war

Relative, as a act of violence, regarding the Woolwich incident is relatively insignificant, other than unusual for Britain in the circumstance of a political act of violence in a other wise fairly safe city. The violence perpetrated upon Muslim people by military coalition of Allied forces, meaning, America, Britain, France, Australia, as countries with a central commitment, to a dubious cause, who as a institutional organization collaborating on a united front, that have a collective history of colonization. This calaboration of interests creates and polarizes uniting violence upon the Allied front, not only are militants such as Taliban and others created by Western violence but also as collateral damage, the violence inflicted upon Muslim civilians whom are innocent, become a signal for reprisals that Western intelligence apparently unable to ascertain, has not the ability nor will to understand the obvious, unfortunately this has to yet penetrate the consciousness of organizations such as the CIA.

68. Chaise Guevara

@ 64 Tim

“OK. The usual ignorant denials by appeasers which never has any basis in knowledge.”

If you weren’t so busy frothing at the mouth you’d have noticed that what you were quoting there was a request for evidence. Somewhat different to a denial, and the best way to deal with one’s own ignorance.

“The Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave.”

So when you say “Muslim involvement” you mean Muslims were the victims? That’s technically involvement but it doesn’t exactly support your anti-Muslim conclusions.

They had endured Muslim slaughters and aggression, and were forcing Islam out to get rid of the disease once and for all.

“And the Muslim finger in the Holocaust did not contain “a Muslim or two” but entire armies of Muslims stepping in to help realize the holocaust and plod the Germans to commit entire genocide of jews. The holocaust was taken as a format from the Armenian genocide.”

That last bit’s irrelevant, but OK: support for Hitler, to an unconfirmed degree, from a Muslim faction. Why are you more interested in them than all those Christians, agnostics and atheists actually at the Nazi death camps?

“So there you go. There is a Muslim hand in ALL our past history and battles.”

And your two examples are 1) Christians torturing Muslims, and 2) Christians and non-believers with some Muslim support on the sidelines. What I’m not getting here is why I’m supposed to take from this that Muslims are more evil than anyone else.

69. Chaise Guevara

@ dmra

Spanish and British imperialism were, AFAIK, carried out for financial reasons backed up with nationalism (or something like it). They might have technically been carried out in the name of Christianity, but only because it sounded good in speeches. If you go to jail you’re detained at her majesty’s pleasure, but that doesn’t mean the Queen is involved or that she decides how long you should stay in there.

You’re bang on the money RE the crusades and the inquisitions, though.

Chaise,

“Spanish and British imperialism were, AFAIK, carried out for financial reasons backed up with nationalism (or something like it). ”

I’m well aware of that. However it is true that the public justification of those wars tended to be expressed in terms of religion and culture rather than “this can make us rich”.

I was trying to make the point that we generally accept that there are a range of motives for Western wars and empire building and we don’t always accept the publically suggested one as being the only right answer. Quite a few people posting here were suggesting that this kind of analysis doesn’t work for
“Muslim” wars.

Historically there really isn’t that as difference between “us” and “them” as some of the people posting here seem to believe.

Anybody who follows religion is a fool. The fact is that even as soon as 50 years ago science was not in a position to state that it could without doubt prove that the earth was created, not by the hand of an almighty being but a exquisite turn of events called the big bang…. but it can today!

When we die we die. We don’t go to heaven or to meet Allah we die end of.

Religion was created by man to control man. How anybody in this day and age overlook the proof of scientific evidence an put blind faith into a book written by man is beyond me and most of civilised society today and that goes for all faiths. The truth is sad but true..

Untill religion

Untill ALL fake lies of religion is eradicated from this earth there cannot be and never will be.

Peace.

http://www.gmp.police.uk/content/WebsitePages/B0E462F6F33CA88780257B770040F2DE?OpenDocument

Although the idea of religion helping the ill-fated to die with faith is what religion should be for, not to kill, oppress woman, conquer lands, or whatever the warped little book tells you to do… if you truly beleive there is a devine power beyond our earth which created our earth then you are a complete plant pot and deserve to be in the loony bin.

There cannot be a god.

Get over yourselves and just live life peacefully like thoes of us who know the truth. We get 1 life we live it.. reproduce and then we die.

So there is no need for prechers or priest’s to inflict the phoney beliefs of a human written story, that has been absolutely blown out by science and its unquestionable proof that there cannot be and never was a god of any kind.

You sad idiots are so gullible.

74. Chaise Guevara

@ dmra

“I was trying to make the point that we generally accept that there are a range of motives for Western wars and empire building and we don’t always accept the publically suggested one as being the only right answer. Quite a few people posting here were suggesting that this kind of analysis doesn’t work for “Muslim” wars.”

Oh, ok. Fair enough.

“Historically there really isn’t that as difference between “us” and “them” as some of the people posting here seem to believe.”

People are people wherever you go, and every group has its share of pillocks and arseholes. See above for an arsehole from my own religious group, for example!

75. Chaise Guevara

@ 72 Shaunb

“Untill ALL fake lies of religion is eradicated from this earth there cannot be and never will be.

Peace.”

I assume that’s meant to be all one sentence. Would the lack of peace beforehand have anything to do with your fatwa against religion? And do you really think your “all religious people are morons” position is the best way to talk them around to your point of view?

Everyone is free to their own point of view.

Don’t you see…

I wouldn’t want to talk anybody round to my view, its my opinion that is backed by proven seience.

I don’t have a fatwa against religion, on the contrary I stated that I agree that religion is and can be good when its used in a humane manner.

My view is simple. If you beleive their is a devine power which created this earth and would kill people and even members of your own family because you beleive that is right by your god and your religion and religious beliefs. Then you are either one serious crackpot and need help, doing so for your own gain or are doing so for your own sick benefit.

If your best argument against is to try to point out a certain part of what ‘IVE’ said rather than come up with an alternative to what I’M actually saying really proves that no sane person can really argue against the notion that actually there is no god. All the murder caused by religions are based on a lie. Sad but true.

Untill religion is unearthed as nothing more than a lie, hocus pocus, more murder will come. Fact!

77. Chaise Guevara

@ 76 Shaunb

“I wouldn’t want to talk anybody round to my view, its my opinion that is backed by proven seience.”

Yes. But you can wave proven science in people’s faces as much as you like. If they don’t like the implications, they’ll ignore it.

“I don’t have a fatwa against religion, on the contrary I stated that I agree that religion is and can be good when its used in a humane manner.”

You’re talking about wiping religion off the face of the earth. That kinda sounds like bloodshed to me. What exactly do you intend to do to religious people to make them go away?

“My view is simple. If you beleive their is a devine power which created this earth and would kill people and even members of your own family because you beleive that is right by your god and your religion and religious beliefs. Then you are either one serious crackpot and need help, doing so for your own gain or are doing so for your own sick benefit.”

No. Religion is no madder than a million other things people believe. If religious people are “serious crackpots”, then we all are, including you and me. Simply put, your standards of sanity are unrealistically high.

“If your best argument against is to try to point out a certain part of what ‘IVE’ said rather than come up with an alternative to what I’M actually saying really proves that no sane person can really argue against the notion that actually there is no god. All the murder caused by religions are based on a lie. Sad but true.”

Where on earth did you get the idea that I’m arguing in favour of religion? I’m as atheist as it’s possible to be, believe me. I wasn’t defending religion, I was criticising your approach, hence me talking about what you said. You won’t sway people by calling them morons. You’ll make them hate you, and they’ll bunker down and believe their irrational beliefs even more because of it. And that means you become part of the problem.

Look, I’ve been where you are. I used to sneer at religious people, out of a combination of arrogance and sheer anger at being taught about the wonderfulness at Jesus at school, the way it was presented as being as true as science or history. Sneering doesn’t help, and it’s not fair. Human psychology is WAY more complex than that. Intelligent people are sometimes religious. They’re wrong as a simple statement of fact, but they’re still religious, intelligent, and sane by human standards. Yes, it surprised me too.

Reading over, I do see what you are saying and how my posts may be offensive to people. Point taken.

It pains me to see a life or 2, 000 lives been taken by a story a spoof and admittedly this made me angry which was vented on here.

Honestly, I don’t care what people think of me or what faith people beleive in! Personally I have nothing against religion.

I guess what I was getting at was… how can anybody really look themselves in the mirror and honestly say, I ‘know’ there is a god?

What is the point of religion if there can never be peace while religion exsists? It really is a tiresome debate and I can see how it has never really took hold. The words head, bang and wall come to mind.

You know what? I dont get why everyone thinks that just because theyve got this one chance they can start hating on muslims because it isn’t fair. You know what? Did you hear that a Christian killed a muslim women? Well, a lot of muslims found out but they didn’t start war like us uneducated people did! And if you want me to be honest most the Muslims living in England were born here so what country are they supposed to go back to eh? This is their Home country. And most us English people can’t level the asian education because most of them are more brighter than us. Plus i’m ssure that there is a lot of Christians who do things wrong like getting drunk and killing people but there’s no action that occurs towards that is there? So, you need to stop and pray for Lee Rigby instead of causing trouble because the way you people are going on i don’t think he’s RESTING IN PEACE – DO YOU??


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