UK newspaper front pages after Woolwich attack


11:32 pm - May 22nd 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


Charlie Brooker from 2009 on how to report, or not report, killing sprees http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

So what point, if any, are you trying to make here, Sunny?

Perhaps that the British press are ‘just as bad’ as the men who mudered a British soldier in the street?

Or how the murder wouldn’t have happened if there had not been an eager, blood-thirsty press wanting to report it?

Do tell? I’m sure there’s something about ‘hypocrisy’ or ‘irony’ you want to say. Anything to start pinning blame on anyone other than the actual murderers and the Islamic extremist swamp they have emerged from.

Not getting how charley brookers piece ties in with this and what the point is either from the post ? All i know is im a decent, liberal minded person and im proud of that. But at the moment im very angry that this has happened on our streets. What worries me is how will more narrow minded people react to this… mr cameron, to say that this has happened before and our stiff upper lip will see us through is very wrong. Our political leaders need to come down from their ivory towers and deal with our real issues we face. Forget gay marriage etc… deal with the real issues before its too late.

Whatever the media spin, the events at Woolwich were horrific and bizarre. Sadly, we do need to know about this new reality relating to Jihadists and what they do. The apparent perpetrators said they wanted to draw attention to the violence inflicted on Muslims by British soldiers but compare the daily scale of slaughter inflicted by Muslims on other Muslims in Iraq or the violence inflicted by Boko Haram on Christians in Nigeria. And this in Egypt:

At least six Coptic Christians and a security official have been killed in a drive-by shooting outside a church in southern Egypt, officials say.

The shooting came as worshippers left the church in Naj Hammadi after a midnight mass on Coptic Christmas Eve.

A car pulled up and gunfire was sprayed into the crowd.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8444851.stm

For many years the police and security services have allowed extremist preachers to spead their poison in this country, especially in London itself. A number, including Anjem Choudary, Abu Izzadeen, Abu Hamza and co, have openly advocated murdering british soldiers.

The have been ample opportunities to prosecute, jail, and in some cases expel these extremists. But for some unexplained reasons, the security services and police and CPS have chosen to let them carry on with impunity. in some cases they’ve gone so far as to threaten those who reported on these extremists, accusing THEM of ‘Islamophobia’. And they were supported in this moronic policy by many others, supposedly in the name of ‘free speech’.

This is the result. There is blood on the hands not just of the murderers, but of those ‘clever’ idiots who advocated and enforced an insane policy of letting the extremists say and incite whatever they liked so long as neither they nor their followers actually… oh look.

6. So Much For Subtlety

I don’t know why the newspapers are described as harrowing. It is the attackers and their deeds which are harrowing. The newspapers are simply reporting the facts.

I do not like the general trend to implicit endorse the terrorists’ agenda by blaming the victims.

Blood on his hands, hatred in his eyes – and a British accent on his lips. The British Labour Party is going to go the way of the Israeli Labour Party.

7. So Much For Subtlety

5. Lamia

For many years the police and security services have allowed extremist preachers to spead their poison in this country, especially in London itself. A number, including Anjem Choudary, Abu Izzadeen, Abu Hamza and co, have openly advocated murdering british soldiers.

In fairness we have a free speech problem. It is hard to deny people the right to say what they like. Especially on political issues. Up to and including inciting murder. We do not jail Communists after all.

If you are looking for someone to blame, I think the police are not the right target. Who let people like Abu Hamza into the country? Who has stopped people like Abu Qatada being deported? Why have we had such an open door to extremists and why can’t we deport those that are a danger when France can without any trouble at all?

Someone should ask Andrew Neather if this is what he had in mind by rubbing the Right’s noses in it.

Looking around the world to compare Jihadist events in other countries – such as the recent terrorist outrage at the Boston Marathon – it is a mistake to regard the murder of a soldier at Woolwich as a uniquely British event for which the security services, the establishment and/or the Labour Party are to blame.

I cannot believe that I’m the only one who is finding it difficult to comprehend this Jihadist obsession with murder. Recap: the first attempt to blow up the World Trade Centre in New York was in February 1993.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing

The 9/11 events in 2001 were a second try.

9. Matthew Blott

@ Lamia

I fear you are wasting your breath on here.

Try this: ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH DEMOCRACY
http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/may/amir_taheri_21504.shtml

“To say that Islam is incompatible with democracy should not be seen as a disparagement of Islam. On the contrary, many Muslims would see it as a compliment because they sincerely believe that their idea of rule by God is superior to that of rule by men, which is democracy”.

Until the Reformation, that was a widely held belief in much of Europe, hence the St Bartholomew’s Day massacre of the Huguenots in France in August 1572 and the Thirty Years War 1618-48, when one sovereign state would invade a neighbouring sovereign state to install the “correct” brand of Christianity and so save its citizens from eternal damnation.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana: The Life of Reason

11. Iqbal shah

Handful of rerrorists and fanatics have ruined the peace and harmony of most of the world. Govt alone can not tackle this horrifying phenmanon. All the communities in UK should join hands together to weed out these stagmatic elements from our country. We should help police and report the suspicious activities of alike fiends, irrespective of religion, ethnicity, colour race etc

For the ideological roots of modern Jihadism, Sayyid Qutb is one of the original sources and Zawahiri another.

Try this illuminating extract from a BBC2 documentary by Adam Curtis: The Power of Nightmares
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RWqjVcInkc

Sayyid Qutb was tried for treason when Nasser was the Egyptian president, convicted and hanged. Zawahiri went on to become head of al-Qaeda after the death of Bin Laden.

For more on Sayyid Qutb, see the entry in Wikipedia.

This country’s foreign policy objectives over the last 12 years (regardless of which faction is in power), has led to the murder, displacement, torture and illegal imprisonment of millions of men, women and children in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria (Iran is no doubt next on the ‘civilised West’s hit list). Funny how the gutter right wing/neo-liberal mainstream media, the vast majority of whom bang the patriotic war drum relentlessly, never get their violins out for the victims of their ‘humanitarian interventions’.
The two perpetrators of this hideous crime are no doubt just as demented as the AL Qaeda affiliated terrorists that the British political establishment supported in Libya and have been supporting in Syria. The bulk of the blame however is not with the mass murdering war mongers and shameless hypocrites in Westminster or their propaganda mouthpieces in Fleet Street, but the people who give their personal mandate to these cretins in Westminster in the first place. Some of us warned, prior to the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, if this country joins the US in it’s ‘War of Terror’ there will be repercussions, there will be retaliation, there will be blowbacks…….as Malcolm X stated in the aftermath of JFK’s assassination, ‘the chickens are coming home to roost’. Get the troops out of Afghanistan NOW, and stop interfering in the internal domestic affairs of other nations.

“Get the troops out of Afghanistan NOW, and stop interfering in the internal domestic affairs of other nations.”

Harbouring Al Qaeda was the policy of the government of Afghanistan. They declared war on us and our allies, not the other way round.

“the murder, displacement, torture and illegal imprisonment of millions of men, women and children in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria (Iran is no doubt next on the ‘civilised West’s hit list).”

Pure bullshit. Why stop with ‘millions’? Why not make it ‘tens of millions’ or ‘hundreds of millions’ since you are in Lying Mode?

A man was murdered. That’s terrible. The people responsible appear to have been arrested; they will be duly tried, and if convicted they will be jailed for a minimum of 30 years before they are eligible for parole.

Problem solved. Why make a song and dance of what is solely a law enforcement isssue?

(and that goes for the ranting and raving idiots both on the “IZLAMISTS ARE GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!!!” and “EVIL TONY MADE THIS HAPPEN WITH HIS BOMBS!!!!!” sides of things). Just shut up and let the justice system take its course.

Which, yes, is also what the papers should have done. Page 15, “young man murdered”. Page 16, “another young man murdered”.

And fairly obviously, the point of the Charlie Brooker piece is that (assuming the facts are as reported and the murdering scumbags in question are inspired by desire to stir up “holy war”), if it wasn’t for the fact that the murdering scumbags knew they’d get on every front page in the land and create the kind of shitstorm that the press and that commentators have been duly creating, then they wouldn’t have bothered.

It’s only *worth* their sacrificing their lives as free men to commit the crime *because* of that impact.

18. Daniel Factor

I’m just waiting for the Socialist Worker headline. Something like…

CONSEQUENCES OF FORIEGN POLICY!

If British soldiers now get killed in the UK, at least we don’t need to fly them to Afghanistan anymore.

20. Jim Denham

Bill wins!

“Some of us warned, prior to the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, if this country joins the US in it’s ‘War of Terror’ there will be repercussions, there will be retaliation, there will be blowbacks…….as Malcolm X stated in the aftermath of JFK’s assassination, ‘the chickens are coming home to roost’. Get the troops out of Afghanistan NOW, and stop interfering in the internal domestic affairs of other nations.”

I was just waiting to see who’d be the first person (here or elsewhere) to publicly come out with the usual banalities about “blowbsack” which, of course,tells us precisely *nothing* about the specifics of Islamist terrorism, least of all when applied to what seems to have been a “lone woolf” action by a couple of individuals who may well be mentally disturbed.

21. Jim Denham

“blowbsack” should, of course be “blowback.”

I’m just waiting for the Socialist Worker headline. Something like…

CONSEQUENCES OF FORIEGN POLICY!

And, although they can’t spell, they’d be right. This murder was a direct consequence of our foreign policy.

The killers might reasonably ask how we can argue that it is only morally legitimate for wars to be fought, and killings to take place, in foreign countries.

23. Man on Clapham Omnibus

I wonder if the Paskinstan Times’ front page looks similar
when a marriage party is hit by a drone.

When Tony decided to declare a war on terror(islam), invade other countries and be probably the best thing to happen to Islamic militancy, is it any wonder that loonies start coming out of the woodwork.

This risk was identified early on by MI6 in respect of the Iraq/Afganistan wars ,but whilst the consequences are nontheless shocking to witness on elsewise undisturbed British soil, it is probably worth noting that this kind of thing probably goes on unreported on a daily basis in the invaded territories.

The war on terror is a war isnt it?

Yeah, because of course there was no Islamic terrorism prior to the war on terror.

Love the Express front page

26. white trash

@20 Jim Denham – Bill is far from the only one who can see the obvious, if inconvenient truth. Former DG of MI5 pointed it out at the Iraq Inquiry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVGgw-2LSC8

“Our involvement in Iraq radicalised, for want of a better word, a whole generation of young people – not a whole generation, a few among a generation – who saw our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as being an attack on Islam,” she said.

She repeatedly warned ministers of the increased threat and was forced to ask for the MI5 budget to be doubled as a consequence, she told the inquiry.

“We were very overburdened with intelligence on a broad scale that was pretty well more than we could cope with in terms of plots, leads to plots and things that we needed to pursue,” she said.

And since then the West has been playing an almost incredibly foolish game with the so-called “Arab Spring” adventure, to the point where we’re now engaged in supporting the very Sunni Jihadists we *claim* to be against, in a proxy war against Shia Iran and Russia in the Syrian theatre, and no-one knows what ever worse quagmires of terrorism that will inevitably lead to us being sucked down into.

27. Shatterface

The Islamophobic press leaping to the conclusion he must be guilty just because he immediately confessed to the attack and boasted about it while covered in the victim’s blood.

The killers might reasonably ask how we can argue that it is only morally legitimate for wars to be fought, and killings to take place, in foreign countries.

Fascinating, if demented, extension of the word ‘reasonably’ – but not atypical of a certain mindset.

They didn’t ‘reasonably ask’ anything: they hacked someone to death.

28. Man on Clapham Omnibus

5. Lamia

There is blood on the hands not just of the murderers, but of those ‘clever’ idiots who advocated and enforced an insane policy of letting the extremists say and incite whatever they liked so long as neither they nor their followers actually… oh look.

Good description of the birth of Israel

29. Man on Clapham Omnibus

20. Jim Denham

‘I was just waiting to see who’d be the first person (here or elsewhere) to publicly come out with the usual banalities about “blowback” ‘

Sadly Bill didnt win. MI6 came out with that one years ago.

30. the a&e charge nurse

[22] ‘The killers might reasonably ask how we can argue that it is only morally legitimate for wars to be fought, and killings to take place, in foreign countries’ – what you mean, are you suggesting these two men were looking for a debate?

Their actions tell you that they are way off the scale when it comes to any reasonable form of protest.
They weren’t looking to ‘ask’ anything – the outcome was predetermined judging by the type, and number of weapons they were carrying.
Others will already have considered the probability that it is highly unlikely that these two men are not connected to a group who share similar views about problem solving.

Incidentally the British public staged the biggest demonstration in history in protest at the invasion.

I see the OP does not contain any commentary – is this because of being unsure what to say, or because Charlie Brooker may not approve if the material is not handled in the right sort of way.
One things for sure – this killing is not going to be forgotten.

31. domestic extremist

We are getting the usual fatuities from establishment stooges wheeled on by BBC Radio 4. Apparently the Woolwich attack was all due to “mindless violence”. Stand by for “They hate our way of life” but don’t hold your breath for “What in hell do you expect after invading other people’s countries and killing and maiming tens of thousands of people?”

32. Peter Gilkes

Thanks for that. Love all the ‘hidden message’ comments, which spoke volumes about the posters.

Love the Daily Express. Kate can take our minds off all evils.

33. Shatterface

Their actions tell you that they are way off the scale when it comes to any reasonable form of protest.

Even if this was an act committed in the battlefield it would still be a war crime.

Has Livingstone made excuses yet or does he see an attack on a soldier in London worse than a bomb attack on American sport spectators?

@ Lamia: “For many years the police and security services have allowed extremist preachers to spead their poison in this country, especially in London itself. A number, including Anjem Choudary, Abu Izzadeen, Abu Hamza and co, have openly advocated murdering british soldiers.

The have been ample opportunities to prosecute, jail, and in some cases expel these extremists. But for some unexplained reasons, the security services and police and CPS have chosen to let them carry on with impunity. in some cases they’ve gone so far as to threaten those who reported on these extremists, accusing THEM of ‘Islamophobia’. And they were supported in this moronic policy by many others, supposedly in the name of ‘free speech’. ”

- The reason our government do very little to protect us against this is because it is called “Social Integration of various religious belief.” It means that people of other cultures, heritage and relgious views will be integrated within our “Great Britain.” This will mean that over time, people will be seperated so much so that we will not be able to group together and form joint opinions contrary to popular belief or government views. All I can say is, you people are too foolish to understand that this is happening. Hence why so many people are saying “I don’t understand why our government won’t throw anyone out, punish any Islam extremists, jail the religious fanatics and send them back to their own countries.” It won’t change. They have us where they want us and social integration is just going to grow until English people are the minority here in England. Wooohooo. Have a good day guys :)

35. So Much For Subtlety

13. Bill

This country’s foreign policy objectives over the last 12 years (regardless of which faction is in power), has led to the murder, displacement, torture and illegal imprisonment of millions of men, women and children in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria (Iran is no doubt next on the ‘civilised West’s hit list).

No it hasn’t. This is your own personal fantasy. It does not reflect reality. Even if it were true, so what? The one killer who has been identified has the interesting name of Michael. He is of African and Christian origin. What is Syria to him? However it is not true. The reality is that Muslims have a strong tendency to murder each other. They do pretty much everywhere a despotic hand does not keep them down. This does not bother Muslims at all. But if some how non-Muslims get sucked into their politics, if only to speak some words, that gets them upset. The Boston bombers were Chechens. The US has never intervened in Chechnya. Ever.

Funny how the gutter right wing/neo-liberal mainstream media, the vast majority of whom bang the patriotic war drum relentlessly, never get their violins out for the victims of their ‘humanitarian interventions’.

That is not funny. It is neither relevant or true.

The two perpetrators of this hideous crime are no doubt just as demented as the AL Qaeda affiliated terrorists that the British political establishment supported in Libya and have been supporting in Syria.

So they should love us then if we are on the same side. And spare us the crocodile tears you little hypocrite.

but the people who give their personal mandate to these cretins in Westminster in the first place.

Ahh, so they deserve to die in terrorist bombings do they?

Get the troops out of Afghanistan NOW, and stop interfering in the internal domestic affairs of other nations.

What is the connection between two Africans, inspired it seems by a Bengali, and Afghanistan?

We need to help finace the “(EDL)” and wipe this issue out once and for all before its too late !

.

38. Mohammad Rauf

Very painful incident. Shud not happen. May Almighty GOD unite all communities for common cause is peace and stand up for justice.

With the media taken over by reports of the Jihadist murder in Woolwich, not many have noticed that on the front page in Thursday’s FT:

“The IMF said that the banks had not yet been fixed and were hampering the Bank of England’s attempts to spur growth.”

40. douglas clark

It certainly seems to be the case that some people who claim to be Muslims are upset about the UK’s foreign policy. It doesn’t need a huge number of them to be radicalised to cause grief and mayhem.

The response, here and elsewhere, to that seems to be on a spectrum from “chuck every Muslim out of the UK” to “these were psychiatric cases that should be treated with kid gloves. (Well, maybe not kid gloves, but you know what I mean.)

It seems to me that this is terrorism behind enemy lines. It is just that, unlike France say in WW2, we are their enemy lines.

We will, no doubt, be told in a week or so, that the people who did this ‘played cricket’ or ‘helped in a youth club’. How well integrated they appeared to be. We heard all of that after 7/7.

It will become a battleground between those of us that think these people have a point, which they have expressed in a completely obnoxious way – drone wars are not an attractive feature of Western ‘reach’ and neither is Gitmo. The barbarity of what was done by them truly hurts, and they exploit that.

It is not that different from some of the IRA’s atrocities. It is just a bit more medieval and sickening because of that.

I imagine they knew that.

‘Shock and Awe’ is not an exclusively Western Trademark.

I would much prefer it if we just stopped being a US poodle. We had no dog in the fight with the Middle East, but there we are, standing for a minutes silence, for what I knew then, after 9/11, would be revenge.

The problem with revenge is that it strikes innocents as much as your target. Whilst I may have a major issue with Osama Bin Laden, I have no issue at all with wedding parties.

There is a distinct lack of common cause expressed about all of this. It has become fractured across an ‘us’ and ‘them’ line that really doesn’t reflect reality. The vast majority of Muslims have not taken up arms for a jihad, and characterising a substantial minority as subscribing to a radical position is just daft.

Just saying.

Shatterface: dunno if you were living in London in July 2005, but I was, and Ken managed to bring everyone together in a statement that united us. To an extent that normally right-leaning people were very happy to tell everyone from outside who was Ken-slagging to get fucked.

I’d love to see some of the people on this thread working in business. “The reason people aren’t buying our product is because they are EVIL”. “Well, perhaps we could persuade them to buy our product?” “NO, BECAUSE THEY ARE EVIL, NO COMPROMISE”. “Oh, well, OK then…”

1 murder shook the nation….what about countless murders british troops did and are doing around the world in countries like mali, afghanistan, iraq…This guy is trying to reflect the same thing. Corrupt politicians and greedy corporate bastards are the real murderers….Not this Guy….

43. Shatterface

Shatterface: dunno if you were living in London in July 2005, but I was, and Ken managed to bring everyone together in a statement that united us. To an extent that normally right-leaning people were very happy to tell everyone from outside who was Ken-slagging to get fucked

That was rather my point: when attacks occur in London they’re Evil but when they occurr in the US they’re entirely understandable in Livingstone’s eyes.

I find it interesting how many people react with anger and hatred to these incidents. It is anger and hatred which got us here.

I find the incidents (and subsequent reactions) truly saddening. But I’m not angry at anyone.

45. So Much For Subtlety

40. douglas clark

It certainly seems to be the case that some people who claim to be Muslims are upset about the UK’s foreign policy. It doesn’t need a huge number of them to be radicalised to cause grief and mayhem. …. It has become fractured across an ‘us’ and ‘them’ line that really doesn’t reflect reality. The vast majority of Muslims have not taken up arms for a jihad, and characterising a substantial minority as subscribing to a radical position is just daft.

It looks to me like it reflects reality. A soldier is dead. The fact that the vast majority of Muslims have not taken up arms is irrelevant. The vast majority of Whites did not own slaves. Doesn’t mean they did not flock to the volours to defend slavery when the time came. The vast majority of Germans did not gas Jews. But Hitler was still the most popular leader in German history. The real question is to what extent do these men have support in the Muslim community. Well after 7-7 the number of people who were fired from their jobs by the Muslim community – no matter what they had said or supported before 7-7 – was roughly zero. Not a single preacher was removed by his congregation. Not a single president of a single Islamic student association was impeached.

Wnat to bet that despite the MAB’s better PR nothing changes this time either?

It seems to me that this is terrorism behind enemy lines. It is just that, unlike France say in WW2, we are their enemy lines.

But who is the enemy? Muslims? All British people? That looks like a fracture to me.

It will become a battleground between those of us that think these people have a point

Oh go on, tell me what point these people have. Explain it to me.

The problem with revenge is that it strikes innocents as much as your target. Whilst I may have a major issue with Osama Bin Laden, I have no issue at all with wedding parties.

As much? First of all this is not revenge. America is not blindly murdering Muslims. But thanks for the bigotry. Second, as much? America has fought a very clean and focused war. With very few civilian casualities. As opposed to what? Well the people you are siding with have managed to murder 70,000 people in Syria. They manage to regularly blow up Shia markets and mosques in Pakistan. They are indifferent to random murder. So why do you think your justification is their justification? Even if it is, given the hypocritical two faced double standard, why are you endorsing their lies and hypocrisy?

chabilal

1 murder shook the nation….what about countless murders british troops did and are doing around the world in countries like mali, afghanistan, iraq…This guy is trying to reflect the same thing. Corrupt politicians and greedy corporate bastards are the real murderers….Not this Guy….

And then there is this. What murders are British soldiers committing in Mali? The fact is the grievances, the root causes of this violence are the same as that against the Jews. Is does no good to point out that a specific Jew in a specific case did not kill Christian children to make their Passover bread when the lies is so much bigger and more vile. Even considering the root causes is a mistake as it only endorses the narrative. We need to reject it utterly. Western intervention in the Middle East has only been for the good.

@ A&E

are you suggesting these two men were looking for a debate? Their actions tell you that they are way off the scale when it comes to any reasonable form of protest.

Of course I am not condoning this appalling crime.

I am just asking why lethal violence committed in the name of, or in the interests of, a nation state should have any more moral legitimacy than that which occurred yesterday.

As it transpires, the victim had served in Afghanistan.

47. douglas clark

So Much for Sublety @ 45.

The real question is to what extent do these men have support in the Muslim community.

I am suggesting not much. Indeed I doubt that Muslims make a community in the sense you seem to mean it. Did you stand up on your hind legs and accuse all Christians of evil when some Christians blew each other up in Northern Ireland and in England? Did you fuck.

These people, who are our enemies in the sense that we are at war with them, and only a fool would think that they see it otherwise.

It suits your narrative to argue, as you do, that because most Muslims aren’t involved, then their silence makes them guilty by default. It really doesn’t work like that, except inside your head.

They are agents provocateurs behind enemy lines. It is pretty obvious that they have surrendered whatever humanity they ever had in order to shock us.

That suits people like you, who enjoy the extolling the blame culture as much as you did your mother’s milk.

Just for you. Did a drone blow up a wedding party or not? Could some people see that as an atrocity? Is that how you want to conduct a peacekeeping operation? Could you see, perhaps in the part of your brain that hasn’t been occupied by CNN and Fox News that that is also pretty terrible?

Could you see how some people become radicalised and lose all moral judgement? Our forces in Iraq may have blood on their hands too, as you no doubt know

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/20/iraq-abu-ghraib-prison-detainees-torture-us-troops

Yes or No.

48. John Reid

Surprised the daily mail didn’t have another story about Stephen Lawrence naming the 3 innocent men ,still about as killers

49. douglas clark

So Much for Sublety,

Round Two:

I had no idea what this was supposed to mean:

” Doesn’t mean they did not flock to the volours to defend slavery when the time came.”

Quite a few people of a whiteish tendancy appeared to have been against slavery – the North fought a fucking War over it, partly on the basis of that -, but there you go, no doubt many flocked to the colours (?), many did not.

Indeed that is a way forward. I expect that the whiteish support for folk like MLK helped move the world forward a tad. But brown or black folk can do it for themselves too. I am quite a fan of Ghandi.

But Hitler was still the most popular leader in German history.

Not nowadays. Most Germans won’t talk about the rabid bastard.

First of all this is not revenge. America is not blindly murdering Muslims. But thanks for the bigotry.

America is blindly murdering Muslims. Have you missed the death toll in Iraq or Afhanistan whilst under occupation? Perhaps you have, it is that Fox News feed directly into what is left of your brain that does it.

Bigotry? You’ll need to explain that to me.

With very few civilian casualities. As opposed to what? Well the people you are siding with have managed to murder 70,000 people in Syria.

The lowest death toll that is accepted in Iraq is 112,136. If you break it, you own it.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

I think that is a gross underestimate, but there you go.

Even if it is, given the hypocritical two faced double standard, why are you endorsing their lies and hypocrisy?

I am not accepting lies, I have made it as clear as day that what they are doing is evil. But evil begets evil, and thatis what you deny. Whether you agree with the evidence they believe it to be true and they act on that. And do truly evil acts.

You, sir, are in danger of becoming their mirror.

Compare this recent news:

“A wave of attacks killed at least 95 people in Shia and Sunni areas of Iraq on Monday, officials said, pushing the death toll over the past week to more than 240 and extending one of the most sustained bouts of sectarian violence the country has seen in years.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/05/20/iraq-sunni-shia-attacks.html

51. Chaise Guevara

@ 6 SMFS

“I don’t know why the newspapers are described as harrowing. It is the attackers and their deeds which are harrowing. The newspapers are simply reporting the facts.”

It’s fair to say that we’ll never be bosom buddies, but I don’t think you’re stupid. Therefore you can’t really believe that journalism can be summed up as “Papers report facts, nuff said” and I am forced to conclude that you are playing silly buggers.

52. douglas clark

Bobby B @ 50,

What does that prove, exactly?

@2 “Do tell? I’m sure there’s something about ‘hypocrisy’ or ‘irony’ you want to say. Anything to start pinning blame on anyone other than the actual murderers and the Islamic extremist swamp they have emerged from.”

LOL@U

54. So Much For Subtlety

46. pagar

Of course I am not condoning this appalling crime.

Well yes you are. You are just doing it in a specatularly gutless way.

I am just asking why lethal violence committed in the name of, or in the interests of, a nation state should have any more moral legitimacy than that which occurred yesterday.

Well yes, obviously. Asking it puts what happened – the actions of a few derranged individuals – on the same level as legal acts by a State, bound by the rule of law, representing the views and opinions of millions of people, who have come to a decision based on debate and free elections, in which even the Islamists participated.

Not even a slow child could confuse the two. Any lawyer will tell you that a condition for a just use of force is a legitimate state. You are equating the two and hence apologising for the terrorists.

douglas clark

I am suggesting not much.

Suggest away. You do not know though do you? And every opinion poll taken shows very high levels of support for similar views.

Indeed I doubt that Muslims make a community in the sense you seem to mean it.

I agree with that actually. I am not sure it is relevant.

Did you stand up on your hind legs and accuse all Christians of evil when some Christians blew each other up in Northern Ireland and in England? Did you fuck.

You have no idea what I did or did not do. As it happens, while few Irish Catholics committed terrorist acts, the PIRA only survived because of the passive and active support from the Catholic community in Ireland – north and south. It was the government of Ireland that gave them guns. It was the Irish of NI and America that gave them money. It was the Irish on both sides of the border that voted for them – or for parties like the SDLP that refused to commit acts of violence but did everything they could to prevent the British fighting them properly.

Mao said the guerilla is like a fish in the sea. The community they operate in is the sea.

It suits your narrative to argue, as you do, that because most Muslims aren’t involved, then their silence makes them guilty by default. It really doesn’t work like that, except inside your head.

Actually it is an argument you would have no problems with in any other context I would guess. But as that is not my argument it is irrelevant.

Did a drone blow up a wedding party or not? Could some people see that as an atrocity? Is that how you want to conduct a peacekeeping operation?

I am not sure any drone has blown up a wedding party. It looks like a standard lie to me. But let’s assume for the sake of an argument at least one has been. No, it is not the way to conduct a peacekeeping operation but it does not matter as no one is trying. Who cares if someone sees that as an atrocity or not? You have already sold out your humanity by assuming, by implicitly justifying, the idea that murdering people in Britain is a sane or justifiable response. It is not. Any wedding party that was blown up was blown up by a State. Acting within the law. That is different from some nutters deciding to murder someone. This atrocity is more like someone deciding to murder a Black man in Birmingham because another Black man raped his sister in Zimbabwe.

As you could see if your brain was not so filled with self loathing.

Could you see how some people become radicalised and lose all moral judgement? Our forces in Iraq may have blood on their hands too, as you no doubt know

A Nigerian? With no relatives in Iraq? Tell me how he could be radicalised. Who wait, I know, people like you who hate the UK constantly tell him that he ought to hate the UK. I can see that very easily. But what is your excuse?

And what has Abu Ghraib, where British soldiers do not seem to have served, and where the inmates begged the Americans not to hand over the prison to the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior, got to do with it? And they did hand it over. And presumably scores were settled. That is the point – Muslims in the Middle East torture and murder each other is vast numbers. You do not give a damn. Because you are a hypocrite. Some how this is supposed to cause murders in the UK, but when Iraqis do it to each other everyone else is supposed to be fine with it?

55. So Much For Subtlety

49. douglas clark

Quite a few people of a whiteish tendancy appeared to have been against slavery – the North fought a fucking War over it

I look forward to seeing a Muslim war against terrorism. But given it has been hugely popular in the Middle East as far back as records go – at least when aimed at the West and its friends – I expect I will be waiting a long time.

I am quite a fan of Ghandi.

Naturally. But not such a fan you learnt to spell his name right.

America is blindly murdering Muslims. Have you missed the death toll in Iraq or Afhanistan whilst under occupation? Perhaps you have, it is that Fox News feed directly into what is left of your brain that does it.

No it is not. It is killing virtually no one and is neither murdering anyone, nor doing so blindly.

Bigotry? You’ll need to explain that to me.

Because you are such a bigot you assume the worst of the Americans and use words that prove it.

The lowest death toll that is accepted in Iraq is 112,136. If you break it, you own it.

Which is proof that the Americans are not blindly murdering anyone. They could do that in a weekend if they felt like it. As it turns out virtually all of that is Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence. You are now dishonestly conflating the two. Because you are as hypocrit and need some theoreticaly justification for your hatred and bigotry. Just as these two men did.

I do not recall Britain breaking anything. Especially not that drummer.

I am not accepting lies

No you are spreading them.

I have made it as clear as day that what they are doing is evil.

But you do not mean it so your claim is hypocritical.

But evil begets evil, and thatis what you deny. Whether you agree with the evidence they believe it to be true and they act on that. And do truly evil acts.

I do not deny that evil begats evil. The problem is you fail to admit the evil starts in the Middle East, not the West. The evil of 9-11 caused the invasion. Not the other way around.

These two British boys committed murder because they have been fed lies like yours all their lives. I would stop it if I were you. At least reflect on it.

56. douglas clark

SNFS,

It is, frankly, a waste of time discussing anything with you. You are in a cozy place, where your mind is made up, and anything I say is wasting both your time and mine.

Can I suggest to you that this correspondence does not go unnoticed?

I think you have made a complete idiot of yourself on this thread.

Why?

Because of this:

The lowest death toll that is accepted in Iraq is 112,136. If you break it, you own it.

Which is proof that the Americans are not blindly murdering anyone. They could do that in a weekend if they felt like it. As it turns out virtually all of that is Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence. You are now dishonestly conflating the two. Because you are as hypocrit and need some theoreticaly justification for your hatred and bigotry. Just as these two men did.

Because the Yanks could have killed lots more human beings, because they restricted themselves to a mere 112, 136.

Because you are as hypocrit and need some theoreticaly justification for your hatred and bigotry. Just as these two men did.

Eh!

I have made the point in previous posts that I think what they did was disgusting. I have, little or no, hatred nor bigotry. Share with everyone else reading this thread what hatred or bigotry I have displayed. Or even thought.

I do not deny that evil begats evil. The problem is you fail to admit the evil starts in the Middle East, not the West. The evil of 9-11 caused the invasion. Not the other way around.

These two British boys committed murder because they have been fed lies like yours all their lives. I would stop it if I were you. At least reflect on it.

I would reflect on it, but your assumption that evil starts in the Middle East utterly undermines any credibility you had.

To be clear, I think that what these bastards did was aimed at people like you. It is a disgusting act directed at separating people on religious grounds. It was designed to do that. You, sir, you fall for it. They stir the pot and you are the sauce they make.

I am, frankly, more terrified by what usefull idiots like you want to achieve by this horrendous act than I am by the horrendous act itself. It seems to me you want to alienate a huge chunk of peaceable people for reasons that are beyond me.

Just saying,

57. So Much For Subtlety

56. douglas clark

It is, frankly, a waste of time discussing anything with you. You are in a cozy place, where your mind is made up, and anything I say is wasting both your time and mine.

Don’t mistake your inability to put forward a rational argument with my unwillingness to change my mind. Your incompetence is not my fault.

Can I suggest to you that this correspondence does not go unnoticed?

I am sure.

I think you have made a complete idiot of yourself on this thread.

Good for you. Not winning though are you?

Because the Yanks could have killed lots more human beings, because they restricted themselves to a mere 112, 136.

Because they have not killed many, they are clearly not trying to kill many, much less indiscriminately. And again you lie when you claim that vast Iraqi-on-Iraqi death toll is all the responsibility of the Americans. It is not. If Muslims kill other Muslims, as they have been, it is not the fault of the US.

I have made the point in previous posts that I think what they did was disgusting. I have, little or no, hatred nor bigotry. Share with everyone else reading this thread what hatred or bigotry I have displayed. Or even thought.

Your on-going lies aobut America show your bigotry. And you have not made the point. You have made the disclaimer. To say “Some of my best friends are … ” is not to disclaim bigotry. So too, when you say “I hate terrorism BUT …” everything before the But is a lie.

I would reflect on it, but your assumption that evil starts in the Middle East utterly undermines any credibility you had.

Yeah right. Because you need the blame the West. Your personal bigotry can see no other option.

To be clear, I think that what these bastards did was aimed at people like you.

I agree. Because they already know you are on board.

I am, frankly, more terrified by what usefull idiots like you want to achieve by this horrendous act than I am by the horrendous act itself.

Of course you are. You have spent your whole life, or at least your whole life here, welcoming these sort of attacks on the West and idolising the people who do it. You are not going to change now. But that does not make you right or me the problem.

58. So Much For Subtlety

46. pagar

Of course I am not condoning this appalling crime.

You think you aren’t, but you are.

I am just asking why lethal violence committed in the name of, or in the interests of, a nation state should have any more moral legitimacy than that which occurred yesterday.

Given the vast body of legal and philosophical works pointing out just why this is so I assume you are being coy and trying to distract from your whatabouttery. So you are not asking such a dumb question. You are defending what these men did. There is simply not reason why anyone needs to explain why a lynching is not remotely like a trial.

As it transpires, the victim had served in Afghanistan.

And that matters because …. ? Because you’re not condoning and justifying what they did right?

59. So Much For Subtlety

51. Chaise Guevara

Therefore you can’t really believe that journalism can be summed up as “Papers report facts, nuff said” and I am forced to conclude that you are playing silly buggers.

That is a spectacularly stupid strawman. I did not claim newspapers merely report facts. I pointed out that they did their job. They reported the facts. That is what we want them to do. The horror is in what those two men did.

It is morally wrong to blame the media for telling us the truth as opposed to condemning the terrorists for what they did. This is what this article is implicitly doing.

@SMFS

There is simply not reason why anyone needs to explain why a lynching is not remotely like a trial.

Because violence is carried out in the name of the nation state, that does not mean it becomes morally legitimate. At least not according to my moral code.

A drone blowing up a wedding party is no more moral, in my view, than is a suicide bombing. Just because millions of people voted for the government who sent the drone does not make it any more acceptable.

Even if you accept that nation states are a useful arrangement in which our lives are beneficially organised by the imposition of the rule of law, it is important, if the system of nation states is to work, that the boundaries of other states are respected.

British soldiers killing Afghans in Afghanistan or Iraqi’s in Iraq is no different, in terms of the morality of their actions, to what happened in Woolwich last week.

To argue that it is different in kind is just jingoism.

61. Chaise Guevara

@ 59 SMFS

“That is a spectacularly stupid strawman. I did not claim newspapers merely report facts. I pointed out that they did their job. They reported the facts. That is what we want them to do. The horror is in what those two men did.”

They reported the facts. Right. Like the “fact” that the killer had hatred in his eyes.

What they did, as usual, was report the facts in the scariest way they could to sell copy. The facts are “Islamist murders soldier in the street”, not “Terror returns to Britain”.

“It is morally wrong to blame the media for telling us the truth as opposed to condemning the terrorists for what they did. This is what this article is implicitly doing.”

Nah, it’s implicitly blaming the media for sensationalism. And that’s a false dichotomy you’ve drawn there. I really don’t think every article on this subject needs a boilerplate stating “For the record, we think murder is bad”. That’s kinda assumed unless stated otherwise.

62. douglas clark

This dipped off the front page and I just thought I’d let it go.

But SMfS is such a one trick pony I am surprised (s)he hasn’t been called to account before this.

SMfS seems to assume (s)he has the right of this discussion:

Me:

It certainly seems to be the case that some people who claim to be Muslims are upset about the UK’s foreign policy. It doesn’t need a huge number of them to be radicalised to cause grief and mayhem. …. It has become fractured across an ‘us’ and ‘them’ line that really doesn’t reflect reality. The vast majority of Muslims have not taken up arms for a jihad, and characterising a substantial minority as subscribing to a radical position is just daft.

Our good chum SmfS replies, completely missing the point or being an obstreperous wee idiot:

It looks to me like it reflects reality. A soldier is dead. The fact that the vast majority of Muslims have not taken up arms is irrelevant.

and then with this:

Of course you are. You have spent your whole life, or at least your whole life here, welcoming these sort of attacks on the West and idolising the people who do it…..

I would quite like these attacks to stop. It is s(he) that paints it as ‘us’ against ‘them’. This might appear appropriate on a web site like ‘Gates of Vienna’ but on here?

Really.

Of course Brain of Britain goes into a bit of a decline decline after that:

Don’t mistake your inability to put forward a rational argument with my unwillingness to change my mind. Your incompetence is not my fault.

Eh?

The only incompetence around here is displayed by a very closed mind, and it ain’t mine.

Well, the wee twit, male or female, will never be stuck for a job. The Daily Mail awaits…..


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