Oxford gang-rape case: were the girls exploited because they were white?


7:59 pm - May 14th 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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The Oxford gang of men who abused, raped and exploited young girls were finally convicted today, and the issue of race has raised its head again.

Reading through the details of what the girls were subjected to is enough to make anyone physically sick, and feel angry at how this was allowed to happen for so long.

Anger also makes people want to reach for easy answers so they can deal with it.

I’m aware that the far-right are trying to exploit these cases for politician gain. But I think the focus should always be on doing what is right and highlighting injustices, even if it raises some uncomfortable issues that can be exploited by extremists. In other words, the presence of the far-right should not lead us to blunt our criticisms or arguments.

To what extent is race a relevant factor in the exploitation?

Let’s look at some evidence first.

After the Rochdale case, the children’s commissioner in England conducted an inquiry into what could be learnt from the case. They published a short briefing paper and later an interim report. The Foreword said:

The vast majority of the perpetrators of this terrible crime are male. They range in age from as young as fourteen to old men. They come from all ethnic groups and so do their victims – contrary to what some may wish to believe. The failure of agencies to recognise this means that too many child victims are not getting the protection and support they so desperately need.

Moreover, of the backgrounds of the victims who gave evidence to the inquiry, 42% were white British and 28% were ethnic minorities. I’m assuming the remaining were mixed or unknown backgrounds.

During the Rochdale case the Judge said: “You preyed on girls because they were not part of your community or religion” — this is repeatedly cited by some people. But it’s also untrue. As was revealed after the ring-leader in the Rochdale case also ‘repeatedly raped an Asian girl over many years.

My point is not that race is irrelevant – but that it’s not relevant to why the girls were targeted.

In some of the cases of gang-related child grooming and rape, the men were primarily of Pakistani backgrounds. I suspect this is simply because they congregated together for work and to commit crime. There are other similar cases where the gangs of men have been exclusively white.

To my mind, the key question is: did they target white girls because of their skin colour and because they hated white girls, or simply because they found it easier to groom white girls? The fact that there are instances of black and Asian girls also being raped implies that in the Oxford (and other similar cases) – the men simply found it easier to prey on young white girls.

Of course, in the Oxford case the men may have deliberately targeted young white girls – I can’t read their minds. But generalising that Asian men are pre-disposed to targeting white girls make no sense given the evidence. Furthermore, these generalisations make no sense since the Jimmy Savile revelations and other cases where not only did rape and abuse take place, but many more people were involved in the cover-up.

But we can make one generalisation with some certainty: too many men still find it acceptable to exploit, groom and rape young girls without much regret. Rape culture remains a serious and widely prevalent problem and we need to do more to help and listen to the victims, rather than using them to score political points.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Story Filed Under: Blog ,Crime ,Feminism ,Race relations

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Reader comments


1. Kate Gilson

The press always want to make race an issue because it makes it easier for the public to digest and react to. These aren’t simply ‘respected members of society’, they are ‘Asians preying on white girls’. This also takes the blame away from our white middle classed doors. Rape happens everywhere with women & girls predominantly the victims. Instances of rape are higher where more girls and women are vulnerable ie war zones, areas of high poverty, homelessness etc. These girls were a particularly vulnerable group hidden away as a minority in society.

There are reports of white men travelling to Asian countries to groom underage children for sex. Surely this is a similar scenario. A white, middle class man presumably believing it ‘too risky’ to rape a child here, travels to a country with high poverty and a high availability of children to be abused. Interestingly in these scenarios, no one ever questions whether the men have flown all the way to a foreign country at great expense, specifically for the foreign children’s colour, they assume it is simply opportunistic. Yet the same assumptions never apply to crimes committed by ethnic minorities here.

Crimes are often repetitive whether it is burglary or rape. Once a perpetrator has found a method that not only works, but that they get away with successfully, it makes sense to repeat that method. In this case one girl was got to via her friend. These men had a system that worked, they knew where to find vulnerable children and they knew how to exploit them. One of the men is reported as having repeatedly raped an Asian girl also.

Of course there still could be a racist element in this specific example. When I was in Egypt a man I barely knew asked me ‘can you get me an English girlfriend?’ I said ‘no, you have a wife!’ He said ‘yes but English girls love to have sex all the time and they don’t care about marriage.’ (I am sure similar ignorant comments are made towards Asian women although as a white woman I obviously haven’t heard them to be able to repeat.) Where cultures combine all sorts of stereotypes are formed.

Who knows what was going on in these men’s minds. To commit such horrendous acts against others they must have convinced themselves that these girls were somehow ‘different’ from them and worthless. Was that mental justification based on race? Gender? The circumstances the girls had found themselves in? I don’t know.

It would be a lot easier if all the men involved were, say, supporters of the same football club. (As would not be impossible to visualise.) Then it would be permissible to discuss openly and frankly what there might be in particular about the culture surrounding this or that football club that nurtured such behaviour, how that culture might be tackled and broken down and – most importantly – what factors might have hindered investigations that would have saved a lot of victims a lot earlier. And every football club would have to look at their own culture to make sure that it was not harbouring such attitudes. It’s not an answer, but it might be a way of thinking that clarifies thing.

In terms of sexual abuse from outside of the family, class and a position at the low end of the socio-economic spectrum are the likely factors involved in which girls would be targeted.

After all, who cares about the daughters of JSA claimants?
Probably not the same people who think benefits claimants are living the life of Riley on state hand-outs. Certainly not the coppers who make the distinction between ‘those who pay their wages’ and ‘those they have to deal with’.

“During the Rochdale case the Judge said: “You preyed on girls because they were not part of your community or religion” — this is repeatedly cited by some people. But it’s also untrue. As was revealed after the ring-leader in the Rochdale case also ‘repeatedly raped an Asian girl over many years.‘”

One counter-example does not does not contradict the judge’s view. In any case we no know nothing of this “Asian” girl. She may have been a Pakistani Muslim, she may have been a Sikh – which would have been “not of your religion”

A clear pattern of exploitation of white girls by Pakistani Muslims has been established by the Times journalist Andrew Norfolk – he looked at 17 trials between 1997 and 2010. The latest cases merely confirm the obvious.

It is not “just” about rape – there is humiliation, degredation – and in the Oxford case torture. If it was gangs of white men doing this to Asian girls there is no question that it would be regarded as extreme racism.

Moreover the victims have been referred to as white slags, white trash, white bitch – that is how the groomers regard them

“There are other similar cases where the gangs of men have been exclusively white.”

Such as?

Kate Gibson

“These girls were a particularly vulnerable group hidden away as a minority in society.”

It is by no means a rule that the targeted girls come from care homes. Gang groomers hang round school gates. In one of the earlier Rochdale cases an Independent school pupil aged 14 was “groomed and fed a diet of alcohol and drugs before being forced to have sex with numerous Asian men in flats and to work on the streets as a prostitute…..she was finally found after she approached a couple in the street in Manchester and asked them for help”.

Some of the girls come from “respectable families” – sometimes the families have been threatened as well as the girls, to prevent them going to the police.

6. Uncle Beelzebub

Oh Sunny. You’re mixing things up here.

Yes, Asian girls have indeed been targeted by some men of Pakistani Muslim background.

There’s nothing new about this, the problem has been going on for quite some time. It has been written about in the mainstream press. Hardeep Singh from the Network of Sikh Organizations has spoken about it. It was cited as a serious issue in Derby.

You can even read about it here!

7. Anne O'Nimmus

@4 Hedgie
There was a case just last summer, of a similar gang of multiple white men (and one Asian), found guilty of the same crime, I think it was in Derby, but can’t recall for sure (can you dig it up, Sunny?). Strangely enough, none of the national papers bothered to pick it up.

8. Darren Hadley

“There was a case just last summer, of a similar gang of multiple white men (and one Asian), found guilty of the same crime, I think it was in Derby, but can’t recall for sure (can you dig it up, Sunny?). Strangely enough, none of the national papers bothered to pick it up.”

I think you will find that was again 9 ‘Asian men’ who were grooming white girls.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12137400

“Rape culture remains a serious and widely prevalent problem.”

LOL. Rape doesn’t happen because of culture, it happens because of fundamental human wickedness. Go ahead, create your feminist utopia and see if it stops.

Anne O’Nimmus

This is the case you are thinking of. However the abusers cann ot be classed as gang

“The paedophiles all acted ­independently and did not know each other.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/eight-men-jailed-in-derby-for-targeting-1344085

11. Rory Lee

would not a better question be why race and culture are only explored when it’s not the white people doing the raping? (and I say this as a white man…)

The issue in this case seems to be one of integration; it could have been other demographics but in this case it was race. I suspect it was because they found a successful method and stuck with it. Of course, scoundrels will spin it for their own purposes…

What we can be sure of is that no one in the Thames Valley Police or Oxfordshire social services will be resigning because of this:

“When Thames Valley Police was first made aware of allegations of rape and sexual assault against teenagers in August 2006 — and on at least three further occasions — it failed to pursue the investigations after the terrified victims withdrew their complaints.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057543/Asian-grooming-gang-convicted-of-appalling-acts-of-depravity-on-children.html

@ Dan

“Rape doesn’t happen because of culture, it happens because of fundamental human wickedness.”

False dichotomy.

Nobody denies the role of ‘fundamental human wickedness’ – moral failings like selfishness, lack of empathy etc. – in rape. But that doesn’t mean culture is irrelevant.

You can’t seriously believe, for instance, that marital rape is equally prevalent within cultures that view husbands as morally and legally entitled to demand sex from their wives at any time, using the threat of force if necessary, and in cultures that view married women as sexually autonomous (and husbands who rape their wives as morally contemptible)?

One form of “racism” that also needs to be explored is “chav” racism. That is, not racism by “chavs” but the labelling of people as “chavs”, which de-humanises and sub-humanises them and makes rape only one of the behaviours – official as well as unofficial – that is OK because it’s only “chavvy” types suffering.

16. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 15 Wills

Indeed. Part of the problem is that the term “racism” refers to prejudice on the grounds of race alone. In apartheid South Africa for example, if a person was black, it didn’t matter if they were wealthy, they still couldn’t enter a whites only establishment, whereas a poor Afrikaner could.

In the above article Sunny has mixed up the concept of racism along with cultural issues such as religion in the way that many of the liberal left are doing when approaching this issue.

The real problem is not “racism”, but rather “prejudice”.

I haven’t noticed that any of those Asians involved in the grooming of young women are from Sikh or Hindu backgrounds, yet Sikhs and Hindus are of the same racial background. Young Sikh women have indeed been targeted. The use of the term “Asian” is therefore not helpful, and any study of what is occurring should focus on the religious and cultural aspects.

That those accused are not practising Muslims in the sense that any Imam would understand the term seems to be obvious. They clearly have little regard for conventional Muslim ethics in the way that they have chosen to target the vulnerable. However, they do come from Muslim backgrounds in the same way that many atheists of British Origin come from a Christian background.

There is an understanding in Islam that a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman, but a Muslim woman may not marry a non-Muslim man. This will contribute to creating an uneven approach in understanding how men and women interact with each other on a sexual level.

As I say, when dealing with genuinely religious Muslims, this causes no problems as religious ethics come into play. With those cultural Muslims, i.e. those brought up in a Muslim family, but lacking the ethical outlook of the true believer, problems will occur. And they have.

As this is a near word-for-word ‘homage’ to the article Mark Easton published on the BBC two hours previously, why is Eastons theory (that institutional bias accounts for over-representation of BME in arrest & offending stats) not repeated here?

Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive of the Ramadhan Foundation:

There are some even now who think that when a majority of on street grooming criminals are Asian men and the victims white that race is not a contributing factor.

I believe this approach leads to some gatekeepers slamming the door on the truth and trying to find excuses for these Asian criminal’s despicable behaviour.

@ 15 and 16

On the subject of ‘chav’ racism: I’d highly recommend this article by Kenan Malik (especially part 1) –

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/three-myths-of-immigration/

– in which he points out that not so very long ago the differences between upper- and middle-class people and the ‘lower social orders’ *were* viewed explicitly in terms of racial superiority and inferiority.

Just to give a flavour:

“The concept of ‘race’ today is so intertwined with the idea of ‘colour’, and of the distinction between Europeans and non-Europeans, that it is often difficult to comprehend nineteenth century notions of racial difference. For nineteenth century thinkers, race was a description not so much of colour differences as of social distinctions. The lower classes were, in their eyes, as racially different as were Africans or Asians. The ‘Other’ were not peoples who came from without; they lived within the nation, and were part of it.”

In some of the cases of gang-related child grooming and rape, the men were primarily of Pakistani backgrounds.

I think that’s slightly understating the case.

Her report into child sex crimes involving groups and gangs found that 2,409 children were used for sex by adults between 2010 and 2011. It revealed that 33 per cent of the 1,266 group offenders whose ethnicities were known were Asian, mostly British Pakistanis. Only 2 per cent of the general population is of Pakistani heritage.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3607803.ece

That’s not exclusively ‘street grooming’ either – the figures for that are likely to be even more disproportionate.

“Were the girls exploited because they were white?”

In this case yes. But thats not to say that we should ignore gang rape by other groups who might be white or of a combination of races.

But who was at fault?

Well primarily the rapists. But also social services. If anyone read the old Winston Smith blog you would quickly realise that social workers just cannot do their job any more. There too many rules, there are too many restrictions, there is too much paperwork, and there is too much management structure and overhead.

Because of the rare but difficult cases like Baby P, and Victoria Climbie (sp?) social workers have even more work piled on top them. It should be recognised that these cases are rare and actually occur because of for every hard case, yet more work is created. Social workers should do social work, nothing else. Social services departments should be cut back – by sacking management. Leave the actual social workers to get on with their job without paperwork, managements and political decisions getting in the way.

22. Mary Coulthard

They were exploited because they were abandoned and poor which despite being white didn’t save them. In fact abandoned poor white girls are probably the only readily available material these paedo gangs can get their hands on without incurring huge overheads. The rich don’t want to pay tax or share the wealth that’s the problem you see but they do want you to believe that’s not the problem, brown people are the problem.

This is an industry made possible by a collaboration between rich white folks and in this and many other exampoles Asian petit-buisnessmen short on capital.

Tim J

Mohammed Shafig’s comments are entirely valid, apart from applying the one sits fits all Asian label that is

Here is a snippet from the Times reporting the award to Andrew Norfolk of the Paul Foot investigative journalist of the year

“Andrew Norfolk’s two-year investigation into the targeting, grooming and sexual exploitation of teenage girls by organised groups of men has prompted two government-ordered inquiries, a parliamentary inquiry and a new national action plan on child sexual exploitation.

The investigation revealed a crime model that police and care agencies refused to recognise – that most of the victims were white and a majority of those in identified abuse networks were men of Pakistani origin.”

Times

SadButMadLad

“In this case yes. But thats not to say that we should ignore gang rape by other groups who might be white or of a combination of races.”

No doubt, but I have been unable to find a single instance of a white British street grooming gang

Leeds, Rochdale x 3, Preston, Rotherham, Derby, Blackburn, Skipton, Oxford all follow the pattern identified by Andrew Norfolk

John Snow asked Keir Starmer whether the reality on the grond was an “epidemic” – Starmer did not demur

Sunny, I agree that it is not an issue of race. Nor is it an issue of religion. I want to make that clear because I feel a significant influential factor is one of culture and sub-culture.

It’s dangerous to generalise of course, but where two cultures differ on their attitudes to women and female children, attitudes may encourage certain groups to be seen as ‘fair game’.

Where males are raised in a culture that says men and women must be separated because men cannot control their natures if ‘tempted’ by women, then the rights of women to take an equal and open place in society are constrained so that men do not have to concern themselves with the exercise of self-control and discipline.

Such attitudes can harden further, with the result that women (and girl children) can be seen as legitimate targets of unrestrained behaviour because they are perceived to have lost or thrown off the defence provided by their male ‘protectors’.

This is not peculiar to Asian or North African cultures; as ever, it is a matter of degree or position along a spectrum, and it is not restricted to abuse of women alone. How often have we seen schools remove the victims of bullying rather than exclude the bully, in the apparent assumption that the bully is simply behaving naturally and it is the victim who must suffer restriction of their rights in order to be safe?

When the victims say that the perpetrators targetted them for not being Muslim and even that insults were used of a sectarian nature and that non Muslim women were considered by them to be ‘fair game’ you need to stop the apologetics and listen to the victims.

27. So Much For Subtlety

22. Mary Coulthard

They were exploited because they were abandoned and poor which despite being white didn’t save them. In fact abandoned poor white girls are probably the only readily available material these paedo gangs can get their hands on without incurring huge overheads.

That is likely to be true. And why? Well the obvious reason is British culture – we do not expect that girls will be groomed if they go out. Therefore we let girls go out. That is obviously not true for the cultures of the Central Muslim lands and any culture that has been in close contact with them for some time. Look at Zorba the Greek again for instance. Add to that the collapse of the family due to the Sixties and the welfare state and you end up with girls who say things like:

“I have no choice; I just want to be loved. I’ve never been loved and this shows me love,” one of the girls told a friend.

The rich don’t want to pay tax or share the wealth that’s the problem you see but they do want you to believe that’s not the problem, brown people are the problem.

This must be the most morally bankrupt statement I have heard for some time. Explain to me how paying more than the 50 or so percent that we do pay would have prevented these girls being unwanted at home or the man who raped them from wanting to rape them.

Vile.

@Hedgie – You won’t find any instances of white street grooming gangs, the term was coined to specify the method of grooming employed by the Muslim men involved in these cases.

Whitey is usually busted for ‘Internet paedophile rings’ or the more universal ‘child sex rings’ instead.

29. Mary Coulthard

~25 `Sunny, I agree that it is not an issue of race. Nor is it an issue of religion. I want to make that clear because I feel a significant influential factor is one of culture and sub-culture.’

I’m not sure it is not an issue of religion. All religions have patriarchy built into their DNA.

#27 `This must be the most morally bankrupt statement I have heard for some time. Explain to me how paying more than the 50 or so percent that we do pay would have prevented these girls being unwanted at home or the man who raped them from wanting to rape them.’

Sufficient taxation to provide decent social service care for these abandoned girls would have prevented this industrial scale paedophilia.

Cylux

The term was “invented” in response to the emergence of a specific phenomenon, it has now been toned down to the rather less alarming “localised child grooming”.

Of course one knows about internet groomers, sick, sad, depraved individuals overwhelmingly; but what we have here are gangs of men grooming, raping, degrading, humiliating even torturing young girls – referring to them as “white trash”(see Bindel’s Standpoint article). This is both racially and religiously aggravated – note the Birmingham case where girls from Telford were lured to Birmingham in order to “celebrate Eid”;see Daily Mail report.

This has occured across England in town after town. There is no parallel to this and you can no more show me white “univeral child sex rings” than you could white street grooming gangs

31. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 19 GO

Indeed. I remember reading some years back of a conversation between two Victorian gentlemen, one an old China hand, the other a newcomer to the far east, where the old hand explained to the newcomer that there was as much difference between the “common coolie” and the mandarin as there was between the “lower orders” and themselves. He went on to say that they themselves had more on common with the mandarin than they did with the British lower orders. The view seemed to be that they themselves were descendants of an inherently superior Anglo-Norman aristocracy, while the lower orders were descended from peasants, and were inherently inferior. The belief in the inherent superiority of the aristocracy of whatever country seemed to be taken for granted.

Such were the eugenicist ideas of the late Victorian era, and they had support from all sides of the political spectrum.

That aside though, ideas of race and colour are now thoroughly intertwined and prejudice against people on the grounds of class is generally seen as just that. We live in the world as it is – and that is the world we have to deal with. Personally, I don’t think it is especially helpful for commentators to attempt to introduce a racial dimension to every social problem when the generally understood concepts of what constitutes “race” have changed so drastically.

32. Mohan Singh

Sunny, I agree with a lot of what you say but it does not fully explain the Psyche of the perpetrators at work here.
It would be true to say these predators are targeting vulnerable easily exploited members of society, but there is something a little more complex happening here. In most cases of sexual abuse, the abuser is actually known to the victim, this is clearly not the case here. By saying, some of their victims were ‘asian’ you have implied that as one would expect they were grooming girls within their own communities as well as outside their communities. However, one needs to examine this more closely and I believe you will find the ‘asian’ victims are predominantly from outside the Pakistani muslim community, this phenomenon is well known to Indian Punjabi’s settled in the UK as their daughters have been targeted as easy prey for some time by these men because 1)Indians tend to be liberal and allow more freedom to girls encouraging them in Higher Education at University etc, this freedom and autonomy is misconstrued as ‘loose morals’ by the Pakistani muslim predators, thus a indian girl socialising with English friends at a gig etc is seen as ‘fair prey’ 2) There are similarities in language and music, cuisine etc between Pakistani muslim men and Indian Punjabi girls this makes it easier to exploit common interests for the purpose of grooming. In the 80’s when this problem of muslim grooming first surfaced amongst the Sikh communities, instead of going to the police the Sikhs raised awareness at the Sikh temples advising their communities to be watchful and vigilant about these unsocial predatory activities going on outside school gates etc. Indeed some Sikh youths formed their own vigilante groups such as Sher-e-Punjab to confront the muslim predators head on, this is well documented in Southall and Birmingham.

So the first reason Pakistani muslim predators groom White and non-muslim Asian girls is the fact that they are more approachable due to the relative freedom afforded to them by their families/custodians.

The second reason I believe is that these predatory muslim men have developed a warped sense that whilst muslim girls are a no-go area, non-muslim girls being ‘kafirs'(non-believer) are ok to ‘do-as-you-please’ since they are ‘Children of a lesser God’.

So in conclusion, my opinion and it is only my personal opinion, I cannot speak for the Sikh community as whole, is that you are partly right in your analysis but there is a lot more to it under the surface.

When even so-called moderate spokespeople for this religion describe non-believers as “cattle”, is the targeting of these girls surprising?

@ Mary

Sufficient taxation to provide decent social service care for these abandoned girls would have prevented this industrial scale paedophilia.

No, it wouldn’t. Not even if you taxed everyone at a rate of 100%, as I’m sure you’d like to.

Care home workers looked out the window night after night as these children were picked up in cars, then taken away to be raped. It is not more “care” that we need but more people prepared to take responsibility for themselves and their children.

Regarding the racial dimension, it was illuminating to watch the discussion on Newsnight last night with the white commentators all saying “street grooming is not a problem particular to the Asian community” and the representatives of the Asian community saying “yes it really is”.

Sunny,

Thank you for including this story on your board.

This latest case of grooming (yes, they do appear to be too regular to be ignored) blurs the distinctions slightly.

Describing the men as ‘Asian’ reveals the choice of word to be merely a PC euphemism for Muslim as two of the men were from North Africa.

If I were Sikh, Hindu, Chinese, Korean, Nepali etc etc I wouldn’t be too pleased with the the word ‘Asian’ being used to describe the men involved.

I can’t but help feel that more emphasis should be placed on telling how this is not the way to behave in this country rather than pussy-footing around cultural sensitivities and self-censorship.

This story is live and should be given greater coverage than the sexual coercion and fumbling by celebrity presenters back in the days before prozac helped them tickle their fancies.

I would welcome follow up stories about how these guys have been beaten senseless in prison by disapproving inmates to help discourage the view that this type of behavior is acceptable at any level. And if someone want’s to give Stuart Hall a good kicking as well – all well and good.

I suppose that makes me a savage, eh?

36. Mary Coulthard

#34 `Care home workers looked out the window night after night as these children were picked up in cars, then taken away to be raped. It is not more “care” that we need but more people prepared to take responsibility for themselves and their children.’

Yes that’s right because not enough abandoned 11 year old girls are taking responsibility for themselves are they? Good god.

Uncle Beelzebub: “Yes, Asian girls have indeed been targeted by some men of Pakistani Muslim background. There’s nothing new about this.”

I think you’re missing the point a bit. First of all, it may be nothing new to some, but thanks to the wonderful British press, there are a lot of people out there who haven’t realised that.

Secondly what the article is arguing against is not the idea that Muslim men might be more likely to commit these types of crimes because their culture favours sweeping them under the carpet (as did mainstream British culture until the 1980s, it now seems), but the widespread assumption that they were deliberately targeting whites, and that the fact so many victims were white is evidence of widespread racism in the Muslim community against white people.

It seems rather more likely to me that they simply went for the easiest targets in a mostly white city, and probably avoided targeting people in their small community who might have met them before, and know their families…

pagar: “It is not more “care” that we need but more people prepared to take responsibility for themselves and their children.”

Rather like saying it isn’t more flood protection we need but less rain.

I’m afraid irresponsible people will always exist, and no number of stern lectures from politicians will prevent them being irresponsible.

Someone will have to look after their children. I think most people would concede wouldn’t object to paying tax to the government sufficient that they can do that.

Mohan Singh

“So the first reason Pakistani muslim predators groom White and non-muslim Asian girls is the fact that they are more approachable due to the relative freedom afforded to them by their families/custodians.”

That statement which is correct in so far as it goes does not reflect the “investment” that the groomers make, they go to considerable ends to hook the girls. Nor does it reflect the sophistication of their operational methods

“On-street grooming follows a pattern. Girls aged between 11 and 14 are most vulnerable and are often targeted by someone close to their own age, sometimes a younger brother or friend of the older men.
The location is usually innocuous – school gates, shopping centers, arcades. It can start with a car pulling up, young guys with charm and good looks engaging a girl in banter. Then cell phone numbers are exchanged and a friendship begins.
The men then work for several months to make the girls believe the friendship is genuine, the relationship meaningful.
“They are investing time and money in girls they target,” said Cat Tatman from Crop, a charity that supports the parents of sexually exploited children.
Once the girls have been won over the exploitation can really begin, she said.”

http://truevisiontv.com/shop/product/details/100/britain39s-sex-gangs

Mary Coulthard

“Sufficient taxation to provide decent social service care for these abandoned girls would have prevented this industrial scale paedophilia.”

Industrial scale is about the size of it

However it is not a matter of resources. Keir Starmer rejected that view on C4 last night. He said that it was a lack of willingness to face up to the realities.

It has been a matter of political correctness

From the Times article on Rotherham in which files were leaked to the newspaper

“There are sensitivities of ethnicity with potential to endanger the harmony of community relationships. Great care will be taken in drafting . . . this report to ensure that its findings embrace Rotherham’s qualities of diversity. It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided.”

40. Tony Woolf

I really cannot understand why it matters much how these men chose their victims. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if such nasty people were racist. So what?

It interests me much more that these vulnerable girls were not properly looked afer and protected by those whose job it was to do it.

41. Darren Hadley

It seems particularly pertinent to me that all though paedophiles can be of any race the difference in this case, the many before it and the many that are going through the judicial process at this moment is that these men specifically targeted these girls because they are white and actively set out to enslave white children.

Even the victims who’ve been forced to walk the walk have said as much, what more evidence do people need?

“The Guardian has been told by one victim, known as Girl C, in an interview after she gave her evidence, that the men exclusively wanted white girls to abuse.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-gang-guilty-grooming-girls

42. Darren Hadley

It seems particularly pertinent to me that all though paedophiles can be of any race the difference in this case, the many before it and the many that are going through the judicial process at this moment is that these men specifically targeted these girls because they are white and actively set out to enslave white children.

Even the victims who’ve been forced to walk the walk have said as much, what more evidence do people need?

“The Guardian has been told by one victim, known as Girl C, in an interview after she gave her evidence, that the men exclusively wanted white girls to abuse.”

And it matters to try and understand why these criminals are specifically targeting on racial and/or religious basis because that completely changes which model you use to catch these men and of course to try and prevent it from happening in the future.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-ga

43. Uncle Beelzebub

37. jungle

I think you’re missing the point a bit. First of all, it may be nothing new to some, but thanks to the wonderful British press, there are a lot of people out there who haven’t realised that.

Well the Guardian hasn’t been very keen on reporting it, but then again The Guardian has a small circulation in comparison to the papers that have reported it, so I suspect that far more people are aware than you credit.

Secondly what the article is arguing against is not the idea that Muslim men might be more likely to commit these types of crimes because their culture favours sweeping them under the carpet … …but the widespread assumption that they were deliberately targeting whites, and that the fact so many victims were white is evidence of widespread racism in the Muslim community against white people.

Sorry, maybe I didn’t make myself clear but when I referred to “prejudice”, this is also what I was referring to. Prejudice cuts all ways. It means that of the middle classes toward “chavs” and that of some Pakistani Muslim men toward non-Muslims.

It seems rather more likely to me that they simply went for the easiest targets in a mostly white city, and probably avoided targeting people in their small community who might have met them before, and know their families…

This has happened in several towns now. Some of them have quite sizable Pakistani Muslim communities. Yet the picture we get is always the same – culturally Muslim predators, non-Muslim – and that means Sikh and Hindu as well as white – victims. I don’t think this is coincidence – do you?

@ 31 Uncle Beelzebub

“Personally, I don’t think it is especially helpful for commentators to attempt to introduce a racial dimension to every social problem when the generally understood concepts of what constitutes “race” have changed so drastically.”

I suppose where it might be helpful is in reminding us that while the labels used to express contempt for the ‘lower orders’ may have changed, so that these issues are no longer seen in racial terms, the nature of what’s going on has not. It’s still about identifying superior and inferior ‘types’ of people.

These girls were vulnerable. If they were my daughters, I would want to know where they were and who they were with at all times.

I would imagine Asian families are much more protective with their daughters. Which is why the girls happened to be white.

46. Uncle Beelzebub

@ 44 GO

Agreed.

47. Kritique

The common denominator that underpins this and all cases of child sexual exploitation, whether in “gangs” or as individuals is power and control. It is specifically adult males who believe they are entitled to abuse and sexually exploit those they see as weak and inferior to them. They rationalise that what they are doing is not wrong.

Yes, the Oxford men were probably convinced of their right to abuse the victims because they weren’t muslim, so inferior and worthy of respect or dignity. Another abuser will legitimise his actions because a child was already abused so “soiled goods” anyhow. Yet another will insist the child came on to them so it’s okay. No matter how far fetched or contorted their “logic” may be, they always have excuses.

There are dangers in seeing the cases in Oxford, Rochdale, etc. as primarily a problem of race, religion or culture.

It creates the unfair impression that Muslim and/or Asian men generally have a tendency to sexually exploit children. While logic tells us that’s not true, it’s still meat and drink to those who continuously scan the horizon for “evidence” to prove their own racial and cultural superiority.

Furthermore, if we place all the attention on the abuse carried out by Muslim and/or Asian gangs, it takes focus off all the other situations where children are sexually abused and exploited. Effectively it gives a “free pass” to the men (and sometimes women accomplices, true) who call on different excuses to justify their victimisation of children.

We live in a society where popular culture sexualises and objectifies women and children, reinforcing the message that they are inferior and supporting all those excuses men come up with to rationalise their abuse of them. We live in a society where victims of sexual violence are mostly disbelieved and blamed.

Unless we tackle the structural inequality within which child sexual exploitation thrives, we’ll just be tinkering around the edges of the issue. That’s cold comfort for the children and young people of all backgrounds who are suffering right now, and allows abusers to carry on with impunity.

“Of course, in the Oxford case the men may have deliberately targeted young white girls – I can’t read their minds. But generalising that Asian men are pre-disposed to targeting white girls make no sense given the evidence.”

That is non-sequitur and a strawman. I don’t believe that “Asian men are pre-disposed to targeting white girls”. I can well believe that in these cases these men targeted these girls partly on account of race. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

“we need to do more to help and listen to the victims, rather than using them to score political points.”

Agreed, but that includes those who for political reasons would prefer to rule out the possible race element. And there are strong indications that part of the reason the girls were not listened to earlier was due to politcally correct fears on the part of police and council workers. That means race may have played a role also in the failure to stop the abuse. That can’t be allowed to happen again.

To clarify, I think you, Sunny, actually have a pretty decent record on these matters and are trying to be balanced.

To add,

other posters have linked to suggestions (of which I was not aware) that some of the victims themselves have said that they were targeted, by the admission of the abusers, because they were white or non-Muslim. If talk of listening to the victims is not just humbug, then let’s actually listen even if what they say is not what some might like to hear, and even if the likes of the BNP would wish to exploit it.

There are indeed all sorts of abusers and all sorts of motivations for abuse. But 33% of street grooming gangs from 2% of the population, if correct, does suggest that there is a significant problem with abuse by a minority of Pakistani males. That part of the overall problem won’t be ameliorated by ignoring evidence because of its culturally sensitive nature.

To add:

Other posters have linked to suggestions (of which I was not aware) that some of the victims themselves have said that they were targeted, by the admission of the abusers, because they were white or non-Muslim. If talk of listening to the victims is not just humbug, then let’s actually listen even if what they say is not what some might like to hear, and even if the likes of the BNP would wish to exploit it.

There are indeed all sorts of abusers and all sorts of motivations for abuse. But 33% of street grooming gangs from 2% of the population, if correct, does suggest that there is a significant problem with abuse by a minority of Pakistani males. That part of the overall problem won’t be ameliorated by ignoring evidence because of its culturally sensitive nature.

51. Shatterface

Whitey is usually busted for ‘Internet paedophile rings’ or the more universal ‘child sex rings’ instead.

What percentage of internet child porn is produced by white English paedos compared with how much is produced in Asia?

@Hedgie

There is no parallel to this and you can no more show me white “univeral child sex rings” than you could white street grooming gangs

For I start I didn’t say ‘Universal child sex rings’ I said ‘child sex rings’ and used the word universal as an adjective since ‘child sex ring’ gets used to describe any grouping of child sex offenders regardless of ethnicity or cultural background.

Secondly child sex rings where all the perpetrators are white are not exactly nonexistant, and while there are unique aspects to muslim street grooming, it’s not all that dissimilar to what the average low-time thuggish drug dealer and his hangers on get up to – feeding drugs and booze to girls in exchange for sex backed up with the threat of violence, if just on a larger scale due to the bigger grouping of like-minded men. Admittedly the local dealers in the nearby town that targeted the little sister of one of my friends restrict themselves to no younger than 14, which I suppose is something I guess. Perhaps one day the police will do something about them, but I think that while they keep targeting girls from ‘the wrong families’ not much is likely to happen.

@51 I think you’re grossly over-estimating the jurisdiction of the British police, and the reportage coverage of the British press.

I don’t know where I read it but one analysis of this and similar crimes pointed out that the victims were mostly targeted at night when involved in nighttime culture, which as far as fast-food outlets and taxis are concerned, is manned by a preponderance of Asian males. Therefore the crimes mostly involve Asians simply because they are the people with whom the vulnerable victims mostly engage. It’s certainly another direction from which to view the problem.

“The youngest victim of the Oxford paedophile ring has accused Oxfordshire county council of lying about the support it has offered to her and her family.

“The woman, known as Girl C to protect her anonymity, said that her adoptive mother begged social services for help in 2004 but agencies just “passed the parcel between them”.

“Two years later the council agreed to put her in a temporary care home, but by then she had fallen under the control of the gang, who plied her with crack cocaine.

“In an interview with The Guardian, Girl C said: “The council put out a press release claiming they had offered wraparound care to all the girls and their families, but the first we heard from them in five years was a letter on April 13 from Jim Leivers [director for children, education and families at the council], where he says he’s been ‘closely involved in providing support’ to me.

“That’s a complete lie. My family have had no support or offers of help at all from Oxfordshire. Nothing. Not at any point. Not even a phone call. The last contact we had with the council was five whole years ago, when my mum was begging them to help her stop me go off the rails. They ignored her then and they’ve ignored us since.””

Heads should be rolling in local government.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sex-gang-guilty-grooming-network-151140380.html#zsm1cUJ

I have to totally disagree with Kate Gilson @1.
The real problem we have here is Pakistan.
Pakistan is a dreadful country where women who are raped can end up in prison. It’s that mental a country.
We have imported a bit of Pakistan into the UK.
It’s not the origin of the people that’s the problem, but the awful misogynist culture that has followed the people on the plane and hasn’t been left behind in the Subcontinent.

In Britain it’s normal for teenagers to go off the rails a bit and get up to stuff that we adults might not really approve of, but we understand it’s part of growing up for the most part, and we may have even done it ourselves.
Things like drinking and smoking under age. Hanging out and getting up to mischief. Going to parties and even having sex. Teenagers do these things and we older people generally know that we are meant to leave them be and not to be overly judgemental and scandalised.
In Pakistan this kind of behavior would get you stoned to death and the police protecting the killers.

The problem is that these (particular) Muslim guys want to experiment in the western way, but have no access to girls/women from their own community. By their photographs and reported behavior, they would find it hard to attract mature white women, so they go for the under age girls instead.
Young girls who they think have no morals in the first place. Bad girls – ”slags” even.

The problem is IMO, the ”Pakistani culture” that many British Pakistanis perpetuate. So young English Pakistani guys only going about with people like themselves … the people who might drop in abusive terms like ”Gora” into their every day conversation.

Just three days ago I overheard two twenty something Muslim ”beards” coming out of Boots in Gloucester and one said to the other (of someone obviously still inside the shop) ”What a stupid fucking cow” … to which the other replied ”She looks like something off Jeremy Kyle”.
They were just talking to themselves, but loud enough for me to hear, and I looked at them and thought a couple of bad thoughts about them. Maybe even racist ones, I’m not sure. It was their beards that annoyed me a bit, with them talking like that. They looked like young zealots who have all the wrong attitudes. But that was only my wild guess.

Also, after reading about Cowley Road Oxford where I was walking around a few yeeks ago before this story broke, there’s a road in Gloucester just like it. It’s called Barton Street. It’s where the mosque is and all the kebab shops and Asian businesses are. A down at heal working class area where the guys from Afghanistan live too.
Maybe a place to tell your daughters to be wary of and not get chatting to some of the Asian guys down there?

Good article by Taj Hargey:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2325185/The-Oxford-sex-ring-preachers-teach-young-Muslim-men-white-girls-cheap.html

I remember arriving off the train in Istanbul in 1968, and all male heads turned, work stopped, to look at some of my fellow passengers, who were wearing mini-skirts. The idea that white girls were cheap and easy was already current.

56

‘maybe a place to tell your daughters to be wary of’

Unless your daughters are white working class and live there too.

Also, after reading about Cowley Road Oxford where I was walking around a few yeeks ago before this story broke, there’s a road in Gloucester just like it. It’s called Barton Street. It’s where the mosque is and all the kebab shops and Asian businesses are. A down at heal working class area where the guys from Afghanistan live too.

I used to live on the Cowley Road. I also had student digs in a (college-owned) guest house on the Iffley Road that must have been about half a block away from the one at the centre of this story. It’s really not that bad a place – it was Blackbird Leys that we used to hear stories about.

You are swapping race and religion to easily, they are different things. Isn’t anyone from the Asia area defined as Asian?

“I remember arriving off the train in Istanbul in 1968, and all male heads turned, work stopped, to look at some of my fellow passengers, who were wearing mini-skirts. The idea that white girls were cheap and easy was already current.”

Quite, hence the need for operation Yewtree.

I’m aware that the far-right are trying to exploit these cases for politician gain.

Whenever anything happens that seems to validate what people on the right have been saying, you can bet that liberals will accuse them of “trying to exploit it for political gain,” which is an absurd double standard.

Compare: “oh, you’re just trying to exploit the financial crisis for political gain; if you want to suggest that the financial sector needs more or better regulation, you should make the case without reference to the financial crisis.”

My point is not that race is irrelevant – but that it’s not relevant to why the girls were targeted.

Of course it is.

You throw out the fact that one of the ring-leaders abused an Asian girl as well, as if this somehow proves that whatever his motives were, they were not racist, because obviously an Asian racist gang-rapist peadophile would never rape an Asian girl. I mean, that would be totally weird and irrational and, whatever else you can say about racist gang-rapist peadophiles, they’re always rational people.

Again, compare: a gang of whites systematically abuse and gang rape Asian children. Is this racially motivated? No. You see, one of the ring leaders also raped a white girl, so it couldn’t possibly be racially motivated.

An interesting question is, why is it so important for people to convince themselves that these crimes are not racially motivated? It seems like it could hardly be more obvious.

In some of the cases of gang-related child grooming and rape, the men were primarily of Pakistani backgrounds. I suspect this is simply because they congregated together for work and to commit crime

Er, what?

Look, let’s take any random act of racially motivated violence. The murder of Stephen Lawrence, say. The men who committed the murder were white, but that’s just a coincidence. They were people from a common background who just happened to be white, and who’s victim happened to not be white. Probabnly, they’ve committed acts of vioelcne against white people too. Ergo, they cannot possibly be racists.

There are other similar cases where the gangs of men have been exclusively white

And?

Were thos men targeting non-white children? If so, is it fair to describe that targeting as racially motivated, or is it all just a cosmic coincidence?

In fact, is it possible in principle for non-white people to commit racially motivated acts againts white people? Or is the suggestion that it is possible racist in and of itself? If the former, precisely what would you need to convince you that such a thing had happened?

If you reflect on the OP, what it is, is an attempt at rationalisation, which is intemperate and, at base, disgusting.

Tim J @59. Cowley Road is not a bad area at all. It’s a lively multi-cultural one and one of the places where there’s a bit more life than some of the more staid and boringly white middle class areas of Oxford.
You mention Blackbird Leys, and I remember that got national headlines twenty years ago after riots there.

When you walk further down Cowley Road into Cowley, you are in a different world to that of central Oxford and the universities. It’s very much working class, and working class only if you walk around the shopping centre in Cowley.

But my point was really, that in all areas that become home to new poorer immigrants, the Cowley road area becomes a bit grotty and transient. A place of bedsits and shifting populations. A newcomer from Pakistan (or anywhere) could be driving a mini-cab a week later if he has connections locally. It’s certainly what has happened in London anyway in the last decade or two.
You have men from Pakistan driving mini-cabs – or just totally illegally going and touting as mini-cabs when they have no licence or even the right to drive in the UK, but claim to have a driving licence from their home country. I can just imagine what the process is to get a driver’s licence in India, Pakistan or Afghanistan. Yet people from those countries drive in Britain and claim the right to on the strength of those licences.
My point is, that places where these people live become areas where the rule of law doesn’t fully run. Why would it? The people from those countries come from places that are completely corrupt. Just spend five minutes reading about the recent Pakistan elections.

In Britain though we are terrified about saying things like this, and that the misogynist male view is pretty much the dominant one amongst people from those south Asian and west Asian countries. And Arab countries too.
FGM is still practiced on the majority of Egyptian girls even today I have read. So Egyptians who come to live in England will probably bring these backward views with them. A couple of these guys in Oxford were from North Africa I believe. On what grounds were they allowed to come here I would like to know? Why do we allow people from North Africa come to the UK? Algerians for example? They were never even rulled by the British empire.
There’s nothing wrong with any place on earth where people might come from if they integrate into the westen culture ENOUGH. It doesn’t have to be total, but has to be enough not to have backward the social views of their home country.

The rule of law does not run so smoothly in parts of Northern Ireland in marching season. Yet, I suspect you’re perfectly happy to tolerate that.

I just don’t think the authorities have the time, manpower, or resources to sort out such low-level lawlessness.

["Just three days ago I overheard two twenty something Muslim ”beards” coming out of Boots in Gloucester and one said to the other (of someone obviously still inside the shop) ”What a stupid fucking cow” … to which the other replied ”She looks like something off Jeremy Kyle”.]

Well, it’s a moronic comment, but a lot of men of their age might talk like that. Maybe they did have a row and the lady did rant like somebody on Jeremy Kyle? You weren’t there.

“They were just talking to themselves, but loud enough for me to hear, and I looked at them and thought a couple of bad thoughts about them. Maybe even racist ones, I’m not sure.”

Hmmh, you did not even know what had happened beforehand and you had (possibly) racist thoughts… Physician heal thyself.

66. Tremor Mendous

“There are other similar cases where the gangs of men have been exclusively white.”

Such as?

Jimmy Saville.

The white people are simply better at hiding the abuse of children – as they already have the prejudiced agents of the state (the police) on their side.

67. Tremor Mendous

62. vimothy

You don’t seem to understand – the children in this case were targetted for one reason – they were vulnerable and easy to get into drugs.

The fact that they were ‘mostly white’ says more about the care that white people show for their destitute children than it does about the rapists being racist.

There are less homeless ‘non-whites’ on the street because there is usually a family member or community member who is willing to assist them.

For the selfish white people of Thatchers Britain – not so much.
If you want to blame someone based on race – then I suggest you blame the white parents of the children who were abandoned and therefore open to any form of abuse by anyone of any colour.

68. Tremor Mendous

With respect to the ‘white trash’ comments – well this is unsurprising as generally you don’t see muslim, black or other ethnic minorities falling on their arses in mini skirts – drunk as pigs in the streets on ‘boozed up Britain’

Not that the abused were of this nature, and I would never suggest they were – but you can see why some people might think white people have a lower threshold of class.

Tremor,

In addition to your moral failings, apparently you can’t count either — that’s *two* reasons, not one.

Isn’t it an amazing thing that Asian Muslims are incapable of predjudice — even the systematic gang rape of white & other non-Muslim children turns out to in fact be a random and meaningless series of events?

First I’ve got to dasagree 100% with Tremor Mendous.
If vunerable teenagers are hanging about in the evenings it means that people should either leave them alone or look out for them – not prey on them. Your argument is like the one that the Slutwalk feminists march against. Blaming women for being out and vunerable so late at night. And the ”Jimmy Saville” argument stinks.
This is about attitudes of some ”Oriental” men towards western women. Particularly women who like to go out drinking and clubbing. Pure misogyny – which is the default thinking in much of the Muslim (and Third) world. Do you not watch programes like Channel 4’s ”Unreported World”? Where for example, in Northern Nigeria, sixty year old men marry fourteen year old girls, who have babies when their bodies are too small to safely give birth. Many people leave these ideas behind when the emegrate to western countries, but a proportion don’t. How high the proportion is would be something worth speculating over.
Is it 50/50? 60/40 – or whatever?

Just read a few articles about the Bradford riots of 2001 to see some of the problems that we had and continue to have. The mere sight of a few members of the BNP in Bradford city centre caused serious rioting and attacks on pubs and the police – and yet these white girl grooming criminals seemed to have been operating right under the noses of the same communities for a decade or more without anyone noticing. Why?

Articles like this one in the Guardian give some clues to what’s missing.

A decade after the riots, Bradford is still uneasy about race relations
There has been progress, not least the stand residents took against the EDL last year, but threats from the far right remain.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/07/bradford-riots-race-relations
Blame it all on the BNP and the EDL, whilst their own communities welcome Islamist extremist preachers to come and give them talks in their mosques and community centres. There’s denial and a victim mentality that’s at the bottom of much of this I think.

Wibble @65

Yet, I suspect you’re perfectly happy to tolerate that.

Not at all. I think Loyalists and Republicans are nutcases, with each side being as bad as the other. The place is beyond repair, and even when there’s peace it’s a sectarian one.

”Low-level lawlessness” can bring a place to it’s knees. As you can see from the levels of corruption in so many of the countries where people migrate to the UK are from. When you get communalist voting paterns like were seen in the Tower Hamlets mayoral election, and the fraudalent postal votes carry-on in different parts of the country, you have to be a little bit concerned, as corners of the UK could end up having practices like those which caused the collapse of that factory in Bangladesh.

As for me overhearing some passing comments by some guys in the street … well that’s just day to day living. I saw their stupid little beards, which were pointy and shaped, and I thought less of them because of that (which I do anyway being quite secular)… and when I heard them talking about a woman who looked like she was ”off Jeremy Kyle”, I felt a slight surge of communalism myself. Only because I was putting two and two together and making (perhaps) five.
Everyone does this kind of thing. Joseph Harker of the Guardian is suspicious of white guys driving white vans and trucks. Particularly if he sees any sign of a union jack or England flag on the vehicle. It’s just a suspicion he has. That they might be EDL or UKIP or something. Just read Yasmin Alibhai-Brown this week going on about UKIP. She seems to think that there can be no discussion about keeping a curb on new immigration without massivly disrespecting all people from the BME and immigrant communities already living here.

People of BME origins can also be very sensitive about slights against people from their communities. I’m just holding my hands up and saying I felt a surge of suspician about them and the way they talked about people looking like Jeremy Kyle fodder. Many Islamists have great disrespect for parts of British society. But it’s not right to talk like that, particularly across race and culture lines.
It can dip into becoming racism.

even the systematic gang rape of white & other non-Muslim children turns out to in fact be a random and meaningless series of events?

There’s nothing random or meaningless about the series of events that makes some girls easier to target than others, and there’s nothing random or meaningless about why targeting those particular girls will allow someone to get away with it for years.

We should be glad however that they’re motivated partly by cultural racism, it means they’re more likely to slip up and have the authorities intervene by over-reaching and targeting girls from outside the underclass. Otherwise they’d have been able to carry on with impunity.

You can’t do much about voting patterns and it’s not illegal. Hopefully, if people become educated they can see past that and vote what’s good for them. I voted Lib Dem :) in council elections once because I knew the guy personally and he was a decent, principled guy.

Well, things like voting fraud usually get caught out, and employment and building regulations are stringently applied. This is the “red tape” that the Right like to whinge on about. I doubt we’ll be getting Bangladesh-style building collapses here any time soon.

That leaves stuff like people driving unlicensed, cash-in-hand work, and speeding. I’m sure the authorities can clamp down if it was worth doing with the resources available.

Oh, IMO the UKIP article is perfectly reasonable.

75. Charlieman

@72. damon: “I saw their stupid little beards, which were pointy and shaped, and I thought less of them because of that (which I do anyway being quite secular)… and when I heard them talking about a woman who looked like she was ”off Jeremy Kyle”, I felt a slight surge of communalism myself. Only because I was putting two and two together and making (perhaps) five.”

Beards: pointy and shaped, versus untrimmed and scruffy. What is your choice?

Jeremy Kyle guest: The Kyle show has been on ITV since 2005 so many hundreds of people have had the opportunity to embarrass themselves. Mostly white people, but other colour skins.

I confess that I am bothered about it, even if the fools should have known to walk away from the program.


I was once invited to the Big Breakfast Show as a guest. I declined politely; in my mind, I said “Fuck off and don’t bother my friends.”

Communal voting is not illegal. Hopefully, when folks get educated they can vote in their best interests. Alternatively, they might know a person – I almost voted Libdem :) in council elections because a personal friend who I thought to be decent and principled was considering standing for them.

I don’t buy your other argument. We’re not going to get Bangladesh-style building collapses here because building regulations are too stringent.

Big problems like voting fraud are quickly stamped upon so that leaves lawlessness like cash-in-hand jobs, unlicensed driving, speeding. Are these big enough for authorities to put resources into?

Oh, and thanks for that great UKIP article!

Doh, are comments being moderated or just slow to show up. That’s why I posted the same thing twice.

78. Charlieman

Who gives a fuck about care home and council house kids?

Nobody really bothers apart from bleeding heart liberals.

That was the case when I was ten years old, old enough to know that DW was poorly looked after by his parents. I was a bleeding heart liberal living in a poor household with high aspirations. I was ten years old but I grew up with DW who became a survivor.

I had competent parents; DW didn’t.

But I ask the question again: Who gives a fuck about care home and council house kids?

“Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, said race and religion were inextricably linked to the recent spate of grooming rings in which Muslim men have targeted under-age white girls.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html

“The men are taught that women are “second-class citizens, little more than chattels or possessions over whom they have absolute authority,” he claims in the column.
“The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent, and sleazy — sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers.

“Their dress code, from miniskirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded.”

80. Charlieman

@54. Julian: “I don’t know where I read it but one analysis of this and similar crimes pointed out that the victims were mostly targeted at night when involved in nighttime culture, which as far as fast-food outlets and taxis are concerned, is manned by a preponderance of Asian males. Therefore the crimes mostly involve Asians simply because they are the people with whom the vulnerable victims mostly engage.”

A good point well made.

We could say that the street grooming cases are opportunistic. Similarly, we could observe that the aged male celebrity kiddie fiddlers in recent news reports used their chances. Before that we have tales about music/sport tutors who abused kids. And we have abuse in “care homes”, both institutional and by individuals.

So we have at least four incident types of child abuse outside the family home.

From which we should conclude that the experts haven’t got very far at identifying potential abusers.

@80 – quite right.

Fortunately, we are “blessed” with the likes of insightful individuals on this forum who’ve worked it all out…

Charlieman

“A good point well made.”

It isn’t a good point at all. Grooming of this nature is planned and takes “investment” in time and money. Opportunistic is the very last thing it is

“The men then work for several months to make the girls believe the friendship is genuine, the relationship meaningful.

“They are investing time and money in girls they target,” said Cat Tatman from Crop, a charity that supports the parents of sexually exploited children.
Once the girls have been won over the exploitation can really begin, she said.”

http://truevisiontv.com/shop/product/details/100/britain39s-sex-gangs

Cylux

“Secondly child sex rings where all the perpetrators are white are not exactly nonexistant”

Not exactly non existent is not exactly proportionate. Given that there have been around 25 trials so far of “Asian” group grooming since 1997 – and that is the tip of the iceberg – there would have to have been large of white rings operating for that to have been in proportion – given the demographics. Ignoring the diversionary background noise about celeb indecent assaults then the evidence for numbers of white child rings is utterly lacking.

“Asian” grooming has assumed epidemic proportions. The numbers of men associated with such groupings can be large – apparently the police running Operation Chalice in Telford had 200 suspects, only a minority ever get to court of course. A case in Keighley saw 2 convictions, but police believed that 50 males were involved. They have absolutely no fears of bing turned in by their own community, a crucial difference compared with the white British.

“while there are unique aspects to muslim street grooming, it’s not all that dissimilar to what the average low-time thuggish drug dealer and his hangers on get up to – feeding drugs and booze to girls in exchange for sex backed up with the threat of violence, if just on a larger scale due to the bigger grouping of like-minded men.”

There are indeed unique aspects of Muslim street grooming, ones that invalidate your anecdotal comparison.

Firstly the planned and targeted nature of it.

Secondly it is racially and religiously aggravated, if not motivated, involving not merely the desire to rape, but to degrade, humiliate, abuse – torture even.

Drugs are one aspect of grooming, there is an interaction, “Asians” have a large involvement in the heroin trade and so they have the money to buy the girls expensive presents and impress them initially with flash cars. And then they feed with drugs of course.

It is a hellish concoction. That the author of this comment piece can go into serial denial about all this because the ring-leader of the Rochdale repeatedly raped an Asian girl – religion not specified – would be laughable if this were not such a vile business.

A good point well made.

It isn’t close to being a good point. It’s a completely sophistic and idiotic point.

Here again we see the phenomenon of otherwise rational and intelligent individuals tying themselves in knots in order to avoid seeing what it is that’s staring back at them from the end of their fork.

Here’s how idiotic it is: Of course taxi drivers and people who work in take aways are bound to form predatory paedophile rings and gang rape children. Since taxi drivers and people who work in take aways are mostly Asian, of course the perpetrators were mostly Asian. Therefore, the fact that they were Asian is completely coincidental–QED.

Charlieman @75 – on beards, maybe you just have to see them.
I’m admitting I was ”pre-judging” them. We all do this. It was the fact that they seemed to be dissing someone ‘across cultural lines’ because they had stupid little beards which marked them out as devout English Muslims, the kinds of people who would never be on Jeremy Kyle, because they are so PURE. I suspected they were sanctamonious asses.
And part of a genereral problem of segregation and fundamentalism. But as I say, it was just a guess. It’s what we humans do and have always done – looking at others and making quick judgements about them.

Wibble @76

Communal voting is not illegal.

Of course not, but that doesn’t mean it’s healthy and to be welcomed. Bangladeshis make up about a third of the population of Tower Hamlets I believe, but were able to get their own man elected as mayor controling a £1 billion budget. They were able to do this because they mobilised their community right under the noses of the wider TH population who were apathetic about the election and there was a low turn out. That is democracy I suppose, but it’s exactly what happens in Pakistan and Bangladesh, and that is not a good thing. Would it be good for example, to have a Hispanic party in the USA? That brought race into politics?

One of the things about such small matters as unlicenced driving and the black economy, is that it breeds resentment and racism. Just listen to the proper licenced taxi drivers complaining about the tout illegal mini cabs working at the weekeds. Where people from the likes of Afghanistan are touting for business, and don’t even (perhaps) have a UK drivers licience, and are liable (if stopped by the police) to claim they are someone else, or turn up at the police station with someone elses licence. This is the start of growing a ghetto, and people get hacked off with it and leads to a rise in votes for the right wing and also grumbling Daily Express style resentment.

Then you get Yasmin Alibhai-Brown complaining about how racist and ungrateful the white British are.
I think one follows on from the other. There are problems and issues which cause resentment (around the issue of immigration and race) that we are just completely unable to discuss properly. Everyone just gets cross. I’m in Stroud Gloucestershire this morning – about to go for a walk in the hills. It’s a completely different kind of place to our diverse inner city boroughs like Newham and Handsworth Birmingham. And I would guess that many local people on this bright saturday morning would prefer to walk around a high street like Stroud’s than the gritty urban realism of extremly diverse Handsworth.
If they do, according to people like Yasmin AB, that makes them horrid racists. Because they might prefer Stroud as it is and not how it could be if it became like Handsworth.

I still say the problem is Pakistan. We need to get people of Pakistani origin to leave Pakistani views about women etc – back in Pakistan. It’s no good those views coming here as it will only cause problems.

Btw, Dr Taj Hargey is in no doubt what the problem is.
Well done him and shame on Joseph Harker for banging on about Jimmy Saville and ”white people” when these cases in Telford and Oxford hit the front pages.

I remember somewhere, Taj Hargey being called an ”Uncle Tom” or something though. It was probably just those ”kids” from one of those online Muslim forums, but the charge has been made.

There was a really irritating guy on the Nicky Campbell radio programme the other morning who was doing like Joseph Harker and trying to spin this story into the ground. Apparently he had been on TV that morning and on other radio shows, dashing around from studio to studio, trying to disabuse any of the ideas the kind of which Dr Taj Hargey has highlighted.
I hate it when people try to spin so hard that they make discussing things impossibly hard.

Alex Salmond did it yesterday too over Nigel Farage, with his ”they hate everybody, they know nothing about Scotland and we don’t need them here”.
I don’t like Farage myself particularly, but that kind of hatchet job is what I really dislike.
WTF is there ”to know” about Scotland that is so different to anywhere else in the UK for a start?

vimothy

“Here’s how idiotic it is: Of course taxi drivers and people who work in take aways are bound to form predatory paedophile rings and gang rape children. Since taxi drivers and people who work in take aways are mostly Asian, of course the perpetrators were mostly Asian. Therefore, the fact that they were Asian is completely coincidental–QED.”

It is pure sophistry, first time I saw it peddled was by Harker which doesn’t exactly astonish.

The cardinal point is how do the girls happen to get to meet up with these taxi drivers and takeaway workers in the first place. Why are they there just waiting to be abused?
The answer is that they have already been the subject of wicked targeting operations – as I indicated earlier.

Anyway those in continual denial would do well to watch the C4 programme on Operation Chalice centred on Telford next Thursday. Always good to do a littlle research before pontificating.

Hedgie,

It’s tempting to conclude that since it’s so obvious what’s obvious here, there’s no point trying to engage with these people. But as you note in one of your other comments, the context of this wilful and even comical self-delusion is serious enough that it’s not really possible.

One worthwhile task is trying to reverse-engineer the thought process of the liberal commentariat. My guess is that it’s something like this: If people thought that gangs of Asian Muslims were abusing white children, then this might cause the white British community to react in a racist way towards the Asian Muslim community, which would be bad. Since it’s now evident that gangs of Asian Muslims are in fact abusing white children, then the argument has to be made that this has nothing to do with the fact that the perpetrators are Asian Muslims and the victims white children.

There is a comical aspect to this too, which is that in the name of preventing any racist reaction from the white community, our liberals are ignoring the racist and systematic abuse of vulnerable children. It’s actually hard to think of acts that are more evil and perverse. So we end up in place where liberals are willing to tolerate acts of racist and violent evil against the weakest members of society and not speak out against them, because they are worried that doing so might cause some of our less bright countrymen to harbour thoughts that are themselves racist.

O tempora o mores! It really would be funny if it wasn’t so sickening and depressing.

90

‘our liberals are ignoring the racist and systematic abuse of vulnerable children’

I would imagine that the act of raping and violent assault against children and teenage girls overshadows any accusation of racism. Or would your prefer it that the recent sentences for rape and abuse were changed to racism instead. Whatever your point is in this debate, it is either unclear or plain daft.

I know, right? It’s like, why would anyone care about whether Stephen Lawrence’s murder was racially motivated? Surely the fact that he was murdered overshadows, or whatever, the fact that he was murdered because of his skin colour, yeah?

@92 Iffn all your carping in this thread has been in the aim of getting hate crime laws involved, so as to increase the time spent in the slammer, then I’m well on board with that.

92

The Lawrence family were more concerned that Stephen’s killer/s were brought to justice for the murder of their son. And institutional racism was identified as a major factor into the reason this happened later not sooner. Indeed, the similarity and common thread between the Lawrence murder and the rape and abuse of children and young people by both white and ethnic groups/individuals, is the lack of interest by the authorities based on the particular status/value conferred on the victim/victims. This has been observed by other posters on LC but has not been taken-up in the debate.

As I’ve pointed-out on so many other threads, class is a significant factor which gets lost when the focus of debate is race and ethnicity.

steveb

“As I’ve pointed-out on so many other threads, class is a significant factor which gets lost when the focus of debate is race and ethnicity.”

The gross dereliction in Rotherham was very obviously a matter of politically correct cover up and denial

“Possibly the most shocking threat is the existence of substantial and organised offender networks that groom and exploit victims on a worrying scale,” the report says.

“Practitioners throughout the force state there is a problem with networks of Asian offenders both locally and nationally. This was particularly stressed in Sheffield and even more so in Rotherham, where there appears to be a significant problem with networks of Asian males exploiting young white females.” Such groups are said to have trafficked South Yorkshire child victims “to many other cities, including Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham, Bradford and Dover”.

Another confidential 2010 report. for the Rotherham Safeguarding Children Board, noted that such crimes had “cultural characteristics . . . which are locally sensitive in terms of diversity”.

It said: “There are sensitivities of ethnicity with potential to endanger the harmony of community relationships. Great care will be taken in drafting . . . this report to ensure that its findings embrace Rotherham’s qualities of diversity. It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided.”

Times

How much more insanely pc can you get than this following gem …..?

“They also reveal that one young white girl, known by social services to have been sexually abused by Asian men from the age of 12, was offered language lessons in Urdu and Punjabi by Rotherham council. The aim was “to engage” her in education.”

Sorry, where does class come in that, offering Urdu lessons?

Obviously the girls were expendable as far as Rotherham Council were concerned, but it was the “imperative to avoid suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon” that they came a poor second too. “Cultural characteristics….sensitive in terms of diversity” won hands down.

95

There was also a mass cover-up in the Savile case, he was given extensive access to childrens’ homes, one manager of a particular home, with several complainent, stated that the girls couldn’t be trusted to tell the truth.
Btw, I am not suggesting that race and ethnicity are not factors when looking at the abuse of all children and young people, that would be as short-sighted as suggesting that class is not a factor.

97. Derek Hattons Tailor

@ 91 It should, but does it ? For some there is no worse crime that racism. I heard a woman from the SS Dept one of the areas councils on Radio 4 saying words to the effect that that this was a typical experience of vulnerable youngsters. Which is a bit like saying if you hang out at dodgy kebab shops at midnight you are just asking to be drugged, raped and tortured. An argument which if put in any other context would provoke howls of “victim blaming”. There are some on the left who are so terrified of any suggestion of racism in BBC speak “Inflaming racial tension” that they will ignore/deny a problem in case it upsets the knuckle draggers. Inevitably this forces them into making contradictory, double-think statements. It’s patronising, hypocritical and counter-productive. They seem to have no issue with casting all white male celebrities from the 1970s as sexual predators.

97

Sorry but I don’t agree with your metaphor and I really don’t understand how you can interpret any of my remarks as victim blaming. On the contrary, the fault is most certainly with the various agencies who have failed to act promptly and in the interests of the victims or their families, the Lawrence murder is a case in point. The complaints of Savile’s victims (NOTE, I am referring to one individual not all of the white male celebrities of the 70s) were covered-up or ignored and it would seem that the same authorities have covered-up and/or ignored reports about abuse and violence made about certain Asian gangs.

That said, to attempt to take one aspect such as ethnicity, or indeed class, as a simple cause and effect is nonsensical because there is always an interplay between class, culture, gender and in some cases religion, sexuality and disability. In fact, in the case of the Asian gangs, gender is clearly a significant factor.

And I would suggest that you do not hold the belief that removing all Asian males from the UK would eliminate the crimes of sexual abuse, rape and violence against females.

steveb

I thought your digging up of Savile in response to my post about Rotherham was a bit predictable and rather thin. He seems to have been a despicable predator but he was an individual and however depraved cannot be compared to the grooming gangs whose activities have been brought to light by the Times investigative journalist Andrew Norfolk, who won the Paul Foot award and has received the thanks of the HOC Home Affairs Select Committee; his investigations have been the start point for their enquiry.

I am happy to stand correction here but to say that there was a mass cover up of Savile’s activities does not seem to me to express the reality of the situation, which has been expressed as follows

“On 11 January 2013, Giving Victims a Voice…a report into allegations of sexual abuse made against Jimmy Savile under Operation Yewtree, a joint report of the Metropolitan Police Service and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was published under the logo of the Crown Prosecution Service.[65] Among its conclusions are that “It is now clear that Savile was hiding in plain sight and using his celebrity status and fundraising activity to gain uncontrolled access to vulnerable people across six decades. For a variety of reasons the vast majority of his victims did not feel they could speak out and it’s apparent that some of the small number who did had their accounts dismissed by those in authority including parents and carers.”[66]”

Hiding in plain sight is not a mass cover up

It also strikes me as singular that West Yorkshire Police say that of 76 crimes allegedly committed by Savile involving 68 victims none of these were reported before his death; true he was a national icon, that was his cover; but even so.

I am rather inclined to agree with Barbara Hewson

”But the low-level misdemeanours with which Stuart Hall was charged are nothing like serious crime.”
”Ordinarily, Hall’s misdemeanours would not be prosecuted, and certainly not decades after the event.
”What we have here is the manipulation of the British criminal-justice system to produce scapegoats on demand. It is a grotesque spectacle.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/jimmy-savile/10045699/Allow-legal-sex-at-13-to-stop-old-men-abuse-persecutions-says-barrister.html

It’s rather akin to finding another 58 Commies in the State Dept, or maybe Matthew Hopkins territory

Finally another example from the leaked Rotherham files

“a 13-year-old girl was found at 3am with disrupted clothing in a house with a large group of Asian men who had fed her vodka. A neighbour reported the girl’s screams. Police arrested the child for being drunk and disorderly but did not question the men.”

Surely it cannot be the case that the abject performance of plod here was because the “officers” were of higher class than the 13 year old girl?

@95 Thing is though is that for it to have been political correctness that caused the police to prevaricate when it came to sorting out these gangs then you’d expect them to have a brilliant record for dealing with rape cases that aren’t linked to street grooming gangs.

http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rapestatsinfo.jpg

Sad fact is though that they don’t, and that is the crux of the matter here, gangs such as these will benefit from the proposed changes for anonymity for the accused in cases of rape – not only those innocent of the charge. Anything already existing in the justice system that aids rapists and hinders victims also aids these rapists too. Blaming political correctness is the easy distraction option, shifting attention away from the structural problems at the heart of the justice system.
I mean who are a jury to believe?

– A small business owner, or some 14 year old girl from a sink estate ‘probably put up to it by her mother for compo’?

– Make it a small business owner vs. seven 14-16 year old girls though, all telling similar harrowing tales, then you’ll have the jury on side.

And rest assured that Class WILL play a factor in whom the jury is likely to believe, in fact it’s the main reason the prosecution needed as many victims to go to trial as possible.

101. Derek Hattons Tailor

@ 98 I think you’ve misunderstood my post. I am saying that the left/liberals are guilty of inertia in addressing issues perceived as “racially sensitive” . I

99

You are now in the realm of creating a hierarchy of victimhood. I would suggest that rape, sexual abuse and violence is no less frightening from a white celebrity than an Asian male/s.

No cover-up of Savile’s activities, what universe do you live in?

Please also refer to my comments @98 where I point-out that there is usually an interplay of many factors. Simplistic analaysis is just that – simple.

steveb

“No cover-up of Savile’s activities, what universe do you live in?”

I said that I was happy to stand corrected if you could show me that there had been a mass cover up of Savile’s activities. I said that I didn’t consider that “hiding in plain sight” indicated a mass cover up. You haven’t come up with anything. I am inclined to Hewson’s view that this is a witch hunt

“You are now in the realm of creating a hierarchy of victimhood. I would suggest that rape, sexual abuse and violence is no less frightening from a white celebrity than an Asian male/s.”

I agree with Barbara Hewson

“Ms Hewson argued that ”touching a 17-year-old’s breast, kissing a 13-year-old, or putting one’s hand up a 16-year-old’s skirt” are not comparable to cases such as the Ealing Vicarage rape or Fordingbridge gang rape and murders from 1986.”

She added: ”Anyone suggesting otherwise has lost touch with reality.”

Indeed. Some of the detail that emerged from the Oxford case was so appalling that the media would not publish it.
We are talking here about racially and religiously aggravated entrapment, rape, humiliation, degredation and torture it appears.

Anyone who thinks that that is Stuart Hall territory has indeed lost touch with reality and lives in some weird parallel universe.

“Simplistic analaysis is just that – simple.”

And obfuscation is obfuscation. It is very clear that the “Asian” gangs have been targeting their victims on a racial and religious basis – in the Birmingham case girls from Telford were lured to a seedy hotel in Birmingham to rape them with a view to celebrating Eid. I really don’t know what stronger evidence you could want than that. If that doesn’t satisy you nothing will.

Police and social services might have been trotting out garbage like the girls wre making “informed life style choices” blah blah but the real reason they did nothing was that they had been hobbled by political correctness; this was a can of worms they simply didn’t want to open

“Former Det Supt Mick Gradwell said: “I know that police officers know what they’re saying is true, but they’re not coming out and saying it because you can’t feel comfortable, because of allegations of institutional racism, that you can come out and say that a culture or a race is suspected of this sort of crime.”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100071534/the-poisonous-legacy-of-britains-anti-racism-show-trial/

Cylux

“Thing is though is that for it to have been political correctness that caused the police to prevaricate when it came to sorting out these gangs then you’d expect them to have a brilliant record for dealing with rape cases that aren’t linked to street grooming gangs.”

A devotee of the non sequitur might expect that. The overwhelming majority of rape victims know their abuser, boy friend, ex-boy friend kind of thing. Drink often has a great deal to do with it. The police are often in a very difficult situation, his word against hers and vice versa; in circunstances when one or other or both could have been well pissed.

This is a rather different kettle of fish

“Two brothers who treated young white girls as “sexual commodities” to be bought and sold as they pleased were given long jail sentences yesterday by a judge who said they set out to “use and abuse” vulnerable children.
Ahdel and Mubarek Ali targeted, groomed and then pimped their victims to immigrant workers, who queued to have sex with under-age girls in the back rooms of restaurants and takeaway food outlets.”

Times – Telford

8 or 9 were eventually imprisoned, though apparently there were 200 suspects. Anyway there is a C4 documentary coming up on Thursday at 9 in which further particulars may doubtless be gleaned.

103

‘It is very clear that the “Asian” gangs have been targeting their victims on a racial & religious basis’
So you don’t think the class of their victims has anything to do with it?

‘I agree with Barbara Hewson’

But we aren’t discussing the Hall case and the matter of touching and kissing versus rape and violence are we? If you want to make comparisons be realistic, don’t compare cats with cucumbers if you want to be taken seriously.

Maybe a better comparison is the female homicide statistics where around half are killed by a violent partner and where the police have been informed about the violence and failed to act. This has been happening for decades, we can argue that this has a gender and cultural basis which is nothing to do with one particular race.

Btw, I hope you don’t have young daughters who are ‘touched and kissed’ by a respected male friend/relative, it would be a hard lesson to learn.

@104 I’m not sure why you think

The overwhelming majority of rape victims know their abuser, boy friend, ex-boy friend kind of thing. Drink often has a great deal to do with it. The police are often in a very difficult situation, his word against hers and vice versa; in circumstances when one or other or both could have been well pissed.

doesn’t also apply to these cases. It was well reported about the Rotherham case that a number of the girls abused genuinely believed they were in a relationship with their abusers and refused to cooperate with the police on that basis, plus of course they’d have been on drugs and pissed, quite possibly voluntarily too.

It’s precisely because of that ‘very difficult situation’ the police are in that these bastards were able to obtain such a grotesque tally of victims, which of course ends up being their undoing, because the CPS is eventually able to gather enough victim witnesses to make an unshakable case at trial.

The culture that promotes the idea that false cries of rape are common, and that men are frequently unfairly maligned as sex offenders is the perfect feeding ground for men such as these to operate. Initiatives such as this are to be welcomed, but there’s plenty of work we need to do as well with regard to reforming how rape is treated by the justice system in this country if we want justice to be done more often than denied.

“But we aren’t discussing the Hall case and the matter of touching and kissing versus rape and violence are we? If you want to make comparisons be realistic, don’t compare cats with cucumbers if you want to be taken seriously.”

Hall gets roped into the octogenarian white celeb conflation because without him and others similar that doesn’t leave much beyond poster predator Jimmy.

Ridiculous hyperbole such as “Savile groomed the nation” aside that just wouldn’t have legs. One individual, however depraved, can never be the equivalent of a series of racially/ religiously motivated grooming-rape(and the rest) gangs.

The Guardian’s coverage of the Oxford grooming trial was miserably sparse, though they didn’t fail to report on the front online page that there was an allegation of indecent assault against Davidson gron the Falkland Islands 30 years ago.

You have not backed your assertion that therev was a “mass cover up” involving Savile, though I have requested you do so a couple of times.

107

It would be helpful if you could occasionally respond to the points made which were replies to your own comments.

“It would be helpful if you could occasionally respond to the points made which were replies to your own comments.”

That’s pretty rich actually. I have posted more info and links than anybody else here – you have pretty much ignored this and the various points that I have raised

I have responded to your points I considered pertinent. I decline to go down round and round the houses and up diversionary blind alleys (female homicide stats).

Even the left Daily Mirror has now broken ranks and is starting to tell the truth

“Oxford grooming ring was race-hate gang rape
19 May 2013 00:00
Having seen how our gutless authorities operate, they knew they could defile white girls however and wherever they chose”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/carole-malone-oxford-grooming-ring-1896865#ixzz2TlWPOlTo

You have lost the argument

@104

So you think that a date that ends in sexual assault perhaps after signals have been misinterpreted with the parties pretty much of their trollies can be compared to a planned racially/religiously aggravated targeting operation which may have taken months to bring to fruition.

http://truevisiontv.com/shop/product/details/100/britain39s-sex-gangs

Such a view can only be a product of ignorance or deviousness.

If the former then the Thursday C4 doc on Operation Chalice
in Telford will be enlightening.

So you think that a date that ends in sexual assault perhaps after signals have been misinterpreted with the parties pretty much of their trollies can be compared to a planned racially/religiously aggravated targeting operation which may have taken months to bring to fruition.

What makes you think those are the only 2 varieties?

112. vimothy

The Lawrence family were more concerned that Stephen’s killers were brought to justice for the murder of their son.

More concerned than what–than he was murdered? than the reason why he was murdered?

What you are saying is that any concrete manifestation of racism “overshadows” and somehow makes unimportant the fact that the act in question was caused by racism. It’s so egregiously silly that you contradict it in the same comment and then repeatedly throughout the thread. If the motivation or causal factors that give rise to an act of violence are unimportant when placed next to the concrete fact of the act itself, then of course class is just as irrelevant as race.

So it’s just spin at the end of the day. Either motivations are important or they are not. It’s obvious that they are important, but you can’t have it both ways.

You are now in the realm of creating a hierarchy of victimhood. I would suggest that rape, sexual abuse and violence is no less frightening from a white celebrity than an Asian male/s.

You either haven’t read the reports of what happened to the girls in the Oxford case, or you’re being remarkably insensitive. There is a hierarchy of victimhood, in that some offences are qualitatively worse than others. Factors that were present in the Oxford case and not in the Saville allegations include extreme violence (branding, cutting, beating); group rape; repeated rapes over a prolonged period; medical abuse (illegal abortions, venereal disease etc).

112

Motivation is important that’s why I have stated, on many occasions, that the class of the girls who were abused was significant and also their gender. I have never suggested that ethnicity did not play it’s part only that there is no simple causality. How the authorities perceived/valued the victims appears to be a significant driver too, added with gender issues. I have already quoted the example of women who die from domestic violence where the authorities have failed to act in a timely manner, this has been a problem for decades and it’s not an issue connected with any particular race. To reiterate, my arguement is with the simplistic analysis that yourself and others seem to utilize to explain the phenomona.

113
See above.

109

Posting links is one thing, ignoring other evidence which may not uphold your position is another. Let’s take the example of your comment @107 – you introduce Hall into the equation, who ‘touched and kissed young girls’, comparing something like this with what the Asian gangs did is nonsense. And please don’t quote comment from the Daily Mail, it isn’t evidence, nor is it an explaination. But whilst you want to quote behaviours to me you conveniently don’t want to look at the number of female homicides at the hands of a male (not related to any race) and the failure by the police and other agencies to deal with the matter.
@103 you state that Savile ‘hiding in plain sight’ didn’t constitute a cover-up, so why was nothing done when we now know that he could have started his abuse in 1950s and it was in ‘plain sight’. Savile continued in plain sight for a long time, I call it a cover-up.

“Let’s take the example of your comment @107 – you introduce Hall into the equation, who ‘touched and kissed young girls’, comparing something like this with what the Asian gangs did is nonsense”

I suggest you read my 107 more carefully.

“And please don’t quote comment from the Daily Mail, it isn’t evidence, nor is it an explaination.”

If in a tight corner attack the Daily Mail. In fact in support of my points I quoted from the Times, which to its eternal credit has done the main research, the Daily Mirror Telegraph and Channel 4.

I did not post any links to the Daily Mail

Though another poster linked to the piece by Dr Taj Hargey which exposed the racial/religious/cultural motivations of th groomers.

“The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent and sleazy — sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers.
Their dress code, from mini-skirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded”

Are his views unacceptable to you because they have been published in the DM, or are they a little too inconvenient
altogether?

“But whilst you want to quote behaviours to me you conveniently don’t want to look at the number of female homicides at the hands of a male (not related to any race) and the failure by the police and other agencies to deal with the matter.”

Diversionary tricks cut no ice.

This thread has already deviated far from the author’s contention, the flimsy argument that the grooming gangs are not racially motivated.

This he supported on grounds firstly that the Rochdale gang leader repeatedly raped an Asian girl. This notion has already been refuted. And I note that if the Rochdale gang leader was not racially motivated it seems rather curious that he should have made this comment in court

“We are a civilised society. We are the supreme race, not these white b******s (pointing to police officers in court).”

The author then goes on to claim that the white girls were selected because they were an easy target of opportunity. In fact as I have shown through links a considerable investment in time and money is made by groomers in pursuit of their evil ends. Girl C in the Oxford case told the Guardian that the groomers were looking specifically for white girls to abuse.

The author writes that “some” of the gangs were of Pakistani background – the Times analysis of group grooming trials revealed a massive over-represntation. He claims that there are other “similar” cases where the groomers were of a white background, he doesn’t find the need to produce examples though.

“Savile continued in plain sight for a long time, I call it a cover-up.”

No doubt you do but inaction in response to rumours does not constitute a cover up

“Michael Grade told Channel 4 News that during his time at the BBC he had “fleetingly” heard rumours about Savile, but described claims of a cover-up as “ludicrous”

There have been a number of enquiries into the Savile affair and nothing has emerged to support the notion of a conspiratorial “mass cover up”.

Savile was apparently a depraved individual, one who abused alone. There is no suggestion that he was part of a ring. His case – which is decades old – cannot be compared to the “Asian” grooming rings. In the Telford case alone there were 200 suspcts!!

I also note that whilst enquiry rabbits were produced out of hat for Savile the Rochdale lawyer’s representations for a public enquiry into the trafficking of groomed girls went completely unheeded.

116. Charlieman

This thread feels like a debate with conspiracy theorists. You whack one mole down and it pops up again five comments later. Apologies for length of post.

@82. Hedgie: “Grooming of this nature is planned and takes “investment” in time and money. Opportunistic is the very last thing it is.

Sexual abuse which uses night time street grooming is opportunistic. Middle class celebrities who use their fame to abuse children are opportunists.

According to Merriam-Webster, opportunism is: the art, policy, or practice of taking advantage of opportunities or circumstances often with little regard for principles or consequences.

At no time has anyone on this thread denied that the abusers were not evil or did not plan their manipulation.

@84. vimothy: “It isn’t close to being a good point. It’s a completely sophistic and idiotic point.”

Idiotic perhaps, if that is your opinion, but it is not sophistry.

Dictionary definition, again from Merriam-Webster, for sophistry: subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation.

Demography is not sophistry. When the investigation into 1960s through to 1980s celebrities comes to an end, it is unlikely that any of the accused will be black or UK Asian. The celebrity population of that time didn’t comprise many potential black or UK Asian culprits. My guess is that investigation into sexual abuse in private schools and specialist centres for music/sport will find few black or UK Asian perpetrators, because black and UK Asian people comprise a tiny proportion of that population of teachers (ie they have no opportunity).

@90. vimothy: “One worthwhile task is trying to reverse-engineer the thought process of the liberal commentariat.”

Yes, the liberal commentariat are a mass and think the same thing… Cobblers. I frequently accuse the liberal left of group thinking but, in my head, I recognise that there are a lot of independent rationalists.

“There is a comical aspect to this too, which is that in the name of preventing any racist reaction from the white community, our liberals are ignoring the racist and systematic abuse of vulnerable children.”

No, it is about understanding causes and opportunities. Having identified a few causes and opportunities, the logical thing to conclude is: Oh fuck, there must be a lot of other scenarios that we don’t know about or have not considered.

@109. Hedgie: “You have lost the argument.”

You trivialise the thread by claiming victory. This thread is about understanding why and how teenage girls exposed themselves to abusers. There aren’t any winners.

Tremor Mendous re comment 67:

“For the selfish white people of Thatchers Britain ……. ”

I was wondering how long it would take someone on this board to blame Margaret Thatcher.

118. Charlieman

@117. Kojak briefly quotes Tremor Mendous and adds a few words:
“‘For the selfish white people of Thatchers Britain ……. ‘

I was wondering how long it would take someone on this board to blame Margaret Thatcher.”

So let us look at the offensive words that Tremor Mendous wrote @67:
“You don’t seem to understand – the children in this case were targetted for one reason – they were vulnerable and easy to get into drugs.

The fact that they were ‘mostly white’ says more about the care that white people show for their destitute children than it does about the rapists being racist.

There are less homeless ‘non-whites’ on the street because there is usually a family member or community member who is willing to assist them.

For the selfish white people of Thatchers Britain – not so much.
If you want to blame someone based on race – then I suggest you blame the white parents of the children who were abandoned and therefore open to any form of abuse by anyone of any colour.”

The Thatcher reference was lazy, I agree. But the rest of the argument is valid: nobody cared about the kids. Police, schools and social services were fucking useless. People didn’t care about the kids.

However it is assumed that a casual polemic discounts the substantive argument…

Charlieman

“Sexual abuse which uses night time street grooming is opportunistic.”

Opportunism is generally used in a short-termist context eg
the mobile phone or bike thief. The impression is created, by the likes of Harker, that the girls magically materiaise at late night takeways and taxi ranks whereas in reality assiduous efforts have been made to get them there

“Vicious pattern On-street grooming follows a pattern. Girls aged between 11 and 14 are most vulnerable and are often targeted by someone close to their own age, sometimes a younger brother or friend of the older men.
The location is usually innocuous – school gates, shopping centers, arcades. It can start with a car pulling up, young guys with charm and good looks engaging a girl in banter. Then cell phone numbers are exchanged and a friendship begins.
The men then work for several months to make the girls believe the friendship is genuine, the relationship meaningful.
“They are investing time and money in girls they target,” said Cat Tatman from Crop, a charity that supports the parents of sexually exploited children.
Once the girls have been won over the exploitation can really begin, she said.”

http://truevisiontv.com/shop/product/details/100/britain39s-sex-gangs

“You trivialise the thread by claiming victory.”

This issue is enveloped in deceit and denial from the liberal left side. It is purported that these are not racially and religiously motivated/aggravated crimes, when in reality they are and the liberal left would be having hysterics if it was the other way round.

It is bruited about that there is – or was – some white celeb grooming epidemic which is equivalent to the “localised child grooming” that has indeed assumed epidemic proportions. This is complete nonsense.

It is denied outright that the police and social services have been unwilling to act in the case of “Asian” street grooming becausee they have been hobbled by political correctness. The evidence of the Rotherham leaked files and the comments of ex-Detective Super Mick Gradwell say othrwise.

otoh it is claimed that Savile has been the subject of some “mass cover” up, for which no evidence exists and is clearly the product of fevered imaginations and a blank refusal to face reality.

So when the Mirror comes out and says that this gang rape, degredation, humiliation and torture was indeed a race hate crime I think I am quite justified in pointing out that the liberal left, which has ben in serial denial, is confounded.

Finally you give the impression that it is all about poor neglected kids from care homs. This is not so, groomers target school girls from “respectable” backgrounds as well. There was the 14 year old from the Independent school in Rochdale found wandering the streets drugged up and dazed after being abused.

Then there is the case of “Josie” from Keighley originally reported in the Times

“Like most little girls, Josie lived for horses. She had an exemplary school record with 100 per cent attendance rate.
But at 13, the teen from Keighley, West Yorkshire, was given a laptop and quickly became addicted to Facebook.
Her father was then warned his daughter was spending a lot of time with older Asian men.
One even told the father he would ‘slit his throat’ when he answered the phone to him.
From there it got worse. Josie started disappearing overnight and began drinking.
Yet, when her father locked his daughter in her room to protect her, it was he who got into trouble with the police for false imprisonment.”

Hardly fits the received view, does it?

“Detectives discovered many other girls, including a 15-year-old local girl Paula. She fell prey to the gang after younger members groomed her as she left school and one young man persuaded her they were in love… before raping her. Soon Paula was having sex with ­several Asian men at a time, at kebab shops, flats and houses and in cars and taxis.

The gang leader told her: “You do what I say and you tell no one. If you call the police or talk to anyone, I will find you then I’ll kill you. Then I’ll find your family and I’ll rape your mother, your sister and kill your father.” When Paula’s father found out and tried to rescue her, he was arrested for assault and ­trespass.

Only when her parents threatened to go to the Press were they taken ­seriously. Seven men were arrested and the case went to trial. The girls testified and were cross-examined for a gruelling 13 days before one girl broke down. The trial ­collapsed and the men went free.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-facing-rape-gang-epidemic-1815558

What a lovely situation this is

115

‘Inaction doesn’t constitute a cover-up’ so what was it about the inaction on the part of the authorities with regard to the Asian gangs? Or for that matter, the inaction of the police when domestic violence is reported and the inaction to deal with reported rapes.

‘Diversionary tricks cut no ice’ – you see the suggestions of other evidence as diversionary, I see it as an attempt to be more realistic about analysis and a way forward to addressing the shocking number of violent and sexual attacks on the female population.

Btw, Savile did not abuse alone, he could not have got away with his behaviours without the assistance of others, his driver, for example, knew what he was doing and used it as an opportunity to also abuse young girls. Of course, we do know the BBC did its’ best to hide it and it looks like investigations into various police forces are indicating inaction there.

120

The dialogue you quote is a standard threat by rapists and abusers of young children, clearly it hasn’t got a racial element to it.

‘Yet when her father locked his daughter in the room to protect her, it was he got into trouble’

Well you kinda make the point I have been attempting to get across – the authorities generally don’t act when violence/rape is reported, especially if it is a working-class female.

I really don’t understand why you can’t grasp that there is behaviour and there is an environment in which is occurs, we need to look at both aspects.

120

Perhaps you could look at the Maria Stubbings case currently in the media, she was failed by the Essex police. Her partner (who has already served 15years for the murder of a previous partner) was given free reign to terrorise her and eventually murder her, despite numerous complaints to the police.

Once more another enquiry is called for to look at the police inaction in domestic violence cases because this is not an isolated case, it has been going on in industrial societies since John Mill wrote about violence against women in the 19th century, not many Asians in the UK at that time.

That’s it Steve, keep the whataboutery coming. Why stop with the C19th? Go back as far as you can, and make sure the criminals in question are all white. Just whatever you do help change the topic away from gangs of Pakistani men raping white girls.

You’re doing a sterling job for the greater cause. Keep telling yourself that.

Only when her parents threatened to go to the Press were they taken ­seriously. Seven men were arrested and the case went to trial. The girls testified and were cross-examined for a gruelling 13 days before one girl broke down. The trial ­collapsed and the men went free.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-facing-rape-gang-epidemic-1815558

What a lovely situation this is

Doesn’t that just prove my point though? “gangs such as these will benefit from the proposed changes for anonymity for the accused in cases of rape – not only those innocent of the charge. Anything already existing in the justice system that aids rapists and hinders victims also aids these rapists too. Blaming political correctness is the easy distraction option, shifting attention away from the structural problems at the heart of the justice system.”
We have a justice system that, among other things, allows for the 13 day grilling of underage rape victims, where’s the political correctness there?

I also note you expressed support for Barbara Hewson’s ideas back @99, want to take a guess as to whom her proposals will also assist?

123

The topic is actually about determining whether the convicted gangs of Asian men were being racist when they targetted white girls. To extrapolate on a point I made to @Hedgie, you call it whataboutery, I call it looking at all of the evidence before making a simple analysis.

‘Inaction doesn’t constitute a cover-up’ so what was it about the inaction on the part of the authorities with regard to the Asian gangs?

God, how many times must I repeat this

“A retired Lancashire detective has backed Jack Straw for speaking out over the sexual exploitation of young white girls by men of Pakistani origin.

Blackburn Labour MP Mr Straw suggested some white girls were seen as easy targets for sexual grooming.

Former Det Supt Mick Gradwell said it was an issue that had been clear for many years and needed to be addressed.

He said investigations into the sexual exploitation of children had suffered because of political sensitivity.

“I know that police officers know what they’re saying is true, but they’re not coming out and saying it because you can’t feel comfortable, because of allegations of institutional racism, that you can come out and say that a culture or a race is suspected of this sort of crime”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12167131

There was a complete and utterly abject failure in Rotherham

600 victims, 1 prosecution

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/600-victims-1-prosecution-dismal-failure-of-rotherham-council-over-child-grooming-1-5292427

BTW stevb when are you going to post quotes/links in support of your contentions?

Senior plod and SS were hauled before the HOC Select Committee – and a pretty abject spectacle they presented. The Rochdale Director of Children’s services was too “ill” to attend. What a shame, hope he made a speedy recovery.

The philosophy underlying their miserable dereliction is found in one of the reports leaked to the Times

“There are sensitivities of ethnicity with potential to endanger the harmony of community relationships. Great care will be taken in drafting . . . this report to ensure that its findings embrace Rotherham’s qualities of diversity. It is imperative that suggestions of a wider cultural phenomenon are avoided.”

You bring up the case of Maria Stubbs. What actual evidence have you that this tragedy resulted from discriminatory attitudes to working class women, or “political sensitivities” as Gradwell put it ? There are thousands of woman police officers and police offices have wives, girlfriends, sisters, cousins, aunts and friends – they are women, so I am told; some may even be working class

“The dialogue you quote is a standard threat by rapists and abusers of young children, clearly it hasn’t got a racial element to it.”

Don’t you think that is rather implied by the context
where yet another “Asian” gang is grooming and gang raping? Would you like me to post you up a couple of examples wHere the girls were called white/kuffar bitch? Would that help?

In the Birmingham case girls were lured from Telford and gang raped to celebrate Eid. Don’t you think there is some religious element to that, steve?

I would particularly appreciate your comment on that one

“Btw, Savile did not abuse alone, he could not have got away with his behaviours without the assistance of others, his driver, for example, knew what he was doing and used it as an opportunity to also abuse young girls”

Quite a ring you’ve got there then, the driver as well. No shxt! 200 suspects in Operation Chalice alone. There is a strong sense of perspective lacking somewhere there.

“The topic is actually about determining whether the convicted gangs of Asian men were being racist when they targetted white girls.”

Quite. It’s not about the abuse of women in the C19th. So looking there for ‘evidence’ about whether this abuse had in part racist motivations is no use, whatsoever. So whataboutery it is.

126

I am not talking about the abuse of women in the 19thC I’m talking about the abuse of women today and pointing out that it’s been going on since the 19th century, and since that time there has been inaction by the authorities.

We are looking at both the abuse/assault and, in some cases murder, of females and how the authorities deal with it. Hedgie has proposed that it’s because of the race of the Asian gangs that the authorities took a softly softly approach and it was allowed to continue. I am proposing that the problem is much broader and females are being raped and assaulted and the authorities are not acting, whoever the abuser is.

I am also asserting that class is an important factor, it appears that most of the girls were working-class.

Nobody has suggested that race and culture has nothing to do with the phenomona, just that it is a simplistic and unrealistic analysis.

steveb

“We are looking at both the abuse/assault and, in some cases murder, of females and how the authorities deal with it.”

We are looking primarily at the motivation of the “Asian” gangs for selecting white girls as targets, and then raping, humiliating and even torturing them in the most horrible way. In the Rotherham leaked files there is a case where a girl had a broken bottle stuck up her vagina. I could cite a number of instances, but presumably that can be taken as read.

Class can having nothing to do with such atrocious group behaviour. I would suggest to you that the motivation is a combination of racial and religious hatred.

Do you disagree?

To take just one example Laura Wilson was groomed in Rotherham and shortly before she was brutally and foully done to death the murderer texted that he intended to “send that kuffar bitch to hell”

130. vimothy

Idiotic perhaps, if that is your opinion, but it is not sophistry.

Idiotic, yes, and sophistic too, which is also (obviously) my opinion,
and which means “relating to the Sophists,” as in, “a specious argument,”
as in, “superficially plausible but actually wrong.” Although in this
case the superficial plausibility is paper thin, hence the idiocy.

For your argument to go through, it must be the case that there’s
something inevitable about taxi drivers and people who work in kebab
shops gang raping and torturing young, white British, girls, and so
the fact that taxi drivers and people who work in kebab shops are all
Asian Muslims (which isn’t actually true) means that it is inevitable
that the people systematically “grooming,” torturing and gang raping
young girls, and generally treating them like human chattel, are Asian
Muslims.

Suppose that in the ’70s there was only Jimmy Saville working in
tv. Suppose further that someone working in tv was guilty of abusing
young girls. Well, it could hardly be anyone other than Jimmy Saville,
could it? So one couldn’t really blame him for what is logically
necessary, can one?

Demography is not sophistry.

This argument is completely idiotic. It’s just as idiotic the second
time around; calling it “demography” changes nothing. (The correct
term for what you are talking about is actually “conditional
probability”. Assume that all subpopulations of the UK commit crimes
at the same rate. Given this assumption, if a crime has been commited,
what is the probability that it was committed by any one of those
subpopulations? The answer is just the probability that a random draw
from the population produces a member of one of the subpopulations,
i.e., it’s their relative frequency in the whole population. So if
Asian Muslims make up 5% of the population, then the probability that
any arbitrary crime was committed by an Asian Muslim is 5%.)

Yes, the liberal commentariat are a mass and think the same thing…
Cobblers

No one thinks that every liberal thinks the same thing — that’s a
straw man. The issue is: why is there a broad trend whereby liberals
seek to deny or rationalise the obvious (and obviously obvious) racial
aspect to these crimes. You’re doing it now, along with other
commenters and the OP, for example. I’m interested as to why that
is. One reason that it’s interesting is that liberals are supposed to
be very anti-racist, so that the idea of liberals accomodating gross
acts of racist violence needs some explaining. /Pourquoi/?

No, it is about understanding causes and opportunities.

I’d say that it’s about trying as hard as possible /not/ to understand
the causes of these crimes. That’s certainly then very strong
impression being given here.

129

No I don’t believe it is religious hatred, the motivation IMO comes from the girls being vulnerable (possibly associated with their class), we also have a culture of inaction by the police relating to the sexual and violent abuse of females. The culture of the gang views females as lesser and this is able to have free reign within our own culture of inaction.
Are these gangs evil and deserve severe punishment – yes.

132. white trash

steveb “the motivation IMO comes from the girls being vulnerable (possibly associated with their class)”

More non sense here. For a start it’s a circular argument; they took advantage of these girls because they could be taken advantage of. For second, it puts the onus on the victims for being vulnerable rather than on the criminals for doing the crime.

132

The onus cannot be put on a victim for being vulnerable unless they chose to be vulnerable, I would guess that wasn’t the case.

“No I don’t believe it is religious hatred, the motivation IMO comes from the girls being vulnerable (possibly associated with their class)”

This amounts to an article of faith on your part such that you seem to find it unneccesary to back up your assertions with any evidence or anything much by way of argument.

The girls in the Oxford and other cases have been subjected to extreme hate crimes. Class has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

Taj Hargey has provided an explanation and one can assume that he knows his own people better than you, steveb

“The men are taught that women are “second-class citizens, little more than chattels or possessions over whom they have absolute authority,” he claims in the column.
“The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent, and sleazy — sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers.

“Their dress code, from miniskirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded.”

It is extraordinary that you find no religious motivation in the grooming and murder of Laura Wilson, when I have quoted the words of the murderer in a text. He murdered her because he had got her pregnant, and thus he had offended against the code of family honour they live by. The utter contempt that he felt for her is evident in the text.

Sorry, what role does class play there?

In the Sept 2010 Preston case an abused girl “later converted to Islam to be seen as pure”. Wonder how she got notion into her head.

I have asked you previously to give your views on this case…………..

“Muslim gang jailed for kidnapping and raping two girls as part of their Eid celebrations”

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132985/Muslim-gang-jailed-kidnapping-raping-girls-Eid-celebrations.html#ixzz2U6gASfzy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Here is another opportunity for you to do so

135. white trash

Steveb “The onus cannot be put on a victim for being vulnerable unless they chose to be vulnerable”

Aaah, accusations of potential “contributory negligence” by the victims now.

You really are full of it aren’t you.

134

I’m beginning to wonder if you actually read my posts, I have already stated that the gangs’ culture regarding women is a significant factor. But this alone cannot explain how they were able to get away with the systematic abuse over long periods of time. You are so focused on religion and race you can see little else.

What has class go to do with it? – Most of the abused girls came from working-class backgrounds and so too the areas which the gang operated were primarily working class areas.

Inaction by the authorities also allowed the abuse to carry-on, not just in the case of Asian gangs, this has been a problem for all women over centuries.

I have little faith that you will even consider any realistic analysis if it doesn’t correspond with your own blinkered views.

135

Straw manning has never been a good debating style.

138. white trash

@137 No straw man in saying I find your prattling and prevaricating about whether victims might get the onus put on them, as you yourself put it, if they “chose to be vulnerable” another particularly sickening piece of obfuscation and whataboutery in the smokescreen that some are obviously trying to throw up around these horrendous religiously and culturally aggravated cases.

“I’m beginning to wonder if you actually read my posts, I have already stated that the gangs’ culture regarding women is a significant factor. But this alone cannot explain how they were able to get away with the systematic abuse over long periods of time. You are so focused on religion and race you can see little else.”

But I wasn’t addressing the issue of why have they got away with it for so long, I was writing about the motivation of those who perpetrate such extreme hate crimes in the first.

Of course it is their culture which leads to this, but just to state that is to say nothing

What is it about their culture which leads to this appalling hate filled abuse?

Taj Hargey has helpfully supplied an explanation in religious/tribal terms

quote from 134

Do you agree with him or have you some alternative to propose?

138

I’m sure you find my comments ‘sickening and the rest, because I don’t take on board your simplistic analysis. If you can’t accept opinions which challenge your own, I would suggest that you stay out of the debates on LC.

139

I know you were not addressing the issue of why they got away with it and that is my point, unless we look at all the factors, we are not going to come to a realistic conclusion. The inaction of the authorities has played a significant part, even you have cited evidence of this so you must believe that committing the crime or the motivation for the crime are not the only considerations.

Would you be so good as to oblige me with an attempt at a straight answer to a straight question

“Taj Hargey has helpfully supplied an explanation in religious/tribal terms

quote from 134

Do you agree with him or have you some alternative to propose”

134

I have already stated that I believe that women within much of Asian culture are lesser beings, and this is a factor, how many times do I have to state this?

However, perhaps you could look at an article in ‘Digital Media’ from yesterday – ‘Police in UK investigating 54 paedophile gangs’.
To summarize – 45% of these grooming gangs are white, 28% of the victims are from non-white ethnic groups, most of the children were from care homes. The article helpfully asks ‘why were these groups allowed to continue for so long?

That was meant to be direct @141

“I have already stated that I believe that women within much of Asian culture are lesser beings, and this is a factor, how many times do I have to state this?”

Does this mean that you agree with Taj Hargey’s comments on how white girls are perceived?

“The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent, and sleazy — sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers.

“Their dress code, from miniskirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded.”

A straight answer would be appreciated.

“However, perhaps you could look at an article in ‘Digital Media’ from yesterday – ‘Police in UK investigating 54 paedophile gangs’.
To summarize – 45% of these grooming gangs are white, 28% of the victims are from non-white ethnic groups, most of the children were from care homes.”

Not a very good summary though.

The article makes no claim as to the ethnicity of those gangs currently under apparent investigation.

The percentages you quote – it’s 43% not 45% btw – refer to past research, presumably the Berelowitz interim report. When this was first published the BBC reported that “government sources” were of the opinion that her report was “less than robust”. It is certainly the case that there appears to have been no previous equivalents to the horrific cases of street grooming outwith the “Asian” community – Asian here is of course used as a euphemism, not only is it inaccurate it is also grossly unfair.

The Times adopted the methodology of investigating actual trials – and from that they established a certain pattern of grooming, by examining 17 trials between 1997 and 2010.

145. white trash

@140 You’re the one with the straw men, steve. Where is my “simplistic analysis”? I’ve hardly commented on this thread at all, except to quote your own words back at you.

But you’ve obviously got your own agenda and reasons for refusing to face the evidence of systematic ethnic and misogynistic hatred targeted against disadvantaged non-Muslim girls.

Why was nothing done? Well for a start, because of people with your attitude. Ann Cryer raised this issue years ago when she was MP for Keighley, and she got shouted down by people calling her a racist and all sorts of crap.

146. Charlieman

@130. vimothy: “For your argument to go through, it must be the case that there’s something inevitable about taxi drivers and people who work in kebab shops gang raping and torturing young, white British, girls… …are Asian Muslims.”

That is not my argument. I point out that when girls are groomed on the street, the perpetrators will be drawn from the population that they meet under those circumstances, and the abusers happened to be Asian men where the reported opportunities occurred.

Grooming on the streets is one scenario used by wicked people to access the vulnerable. It is a scenario in which Asian men will be more present than in the overall population. In other abuse scenarios, other groups will be more prevalent.

“So if Asian Muslims make up 5% of the population, then the probability that any arbitrary crime was committed by an Asian Muslim is 5%.”

Let’s say that the unemployment rate is 10%. The probability that accountancy fraud is committed by an unemployed person is not 10%, because s/he is unlikely to be in the right place at the right time.

Opportunity does not provide excuse or reason for wicked behaviour. But it can help identify potential abusers, in broad terms. When the company books are cooked, the company cleaner is an unlikely culprit.

The recent cases will no doubt be followed by other investigations of street grooming. Every police force or social services agency will be aware of past reports and will be reopening cases. It is thus likely that more Asian men will be brought to trial, which it is right to do if there is evidence. The number of identified Asian male sex offenders in the UK will increase.

But that is a very modest result in reducing the incidence of offences or identifying abusers. It doesn’t help us to understand/identify other abuse scenarios or opportunities for grooming.

“One reason that it’s interesting is that liberals are supposed to
be very anti-racist, so that the idea of liberals accomodating gross
acts of racist violence needs some explaining.”

I’ll say it again: nobody, from a liberal or conservative perspective on this thread, has suggested that racial or sexual abuse are excusable. How or when are not excuses. You’ve assembled a set of conclusions about what liberals might think and are unable to argue about what is actually said.

147. vimothy

That is not my argument. I point out that when girls are groomed on
the street, the perpetrators will be drawn from the population that
they meet under those circumstances, and the abusers happened to be
Asian men where the reported opportunities occurred.

That’s the same argument. Conditional on the perpetrators being taxi
drivers (or whatever), what is the probability that the perpetrators
were also Asian Muslims (or whatever). If all subpopulations commit
this type of crime at the same rate, then the probability is equal to
the relative frequency of Asian Muslims within the population of taxi
drivers.

It is a scenario in which Asian men will be more present than in
the overall population.

The relevant question is why.

Let’s say that the unemployment rate is 10%. The probability that
accountancy fraud is committed by an unemployed person is not 10%,
because s/he is unlikely to be in the right place at the right
time.

No, obviously not. Only if ALL SUBPOPULATIONS COMMIT ACCOUNTANCY FRAUD
AT THE SAME RATE will the rate at which the unemplyed subpop commit
accountancy fraud equal the rate at which the employed subpop commit
accountancy fraud.

I’ll say it again: nobody, from a liberal or conservative
perspective on this thread, has suggested that racial or sexual abuse
are excusable.

And I have not suggested that they have.

148. white trash

Charlieman – this throwing around of the word “Asian” in this context is unhelpful and confusing, as well as downright offensive, if not racist.

As far as I understand what these gangs here under discussion have in common is not being “Asian” – which is such a broad term as to be almost meaningless – but being from a Muslim cultural background. It is religious culture that unites them so strongly as brothers in crime, not race.

149. Charlieman

Taj Hargey’s comments about hate speech in mosques are welcome. Hate speech contributes to petty racism and social disorder. Imams who deliver or contribute it deserve the ostracism that society generally delivers to the BNP.

Hate speech may have exacerbated the evil thoughts of those involved in tempting teenagers into abusive relationships. Hate speech by religious speakers almost certainly inspired the racist language adopted by the abusers.

But hate speech alone is insufficient as a cause for the monstrous acts which have been perpetrated by Muslim men. There had to be something more evil inside them.

Lots of people are casually exposed to hate speech and some actively seek it. Of those who actively seek it, few turn thoughts into action.

I’m not trivialising evil thinkers and perpetrators. I’m just saying that a good person won’t be converted into a bad one by listening to nasty people.

150. Charlieman

@148. white trash: “Charlieman – this throwing around of the word “Asian” in this context is unhelpful and confusing, as well as downright offensive, if not racist.

As far as I understand what these gangs here under discussion have in common is not being “Asian”…”

Prior to this comment, I have posted seven times on this thread. I have described ethnicity three times as “black” (in one post) and used the word Asian seven times in total. I agree that talking about Asians en bloc is clumsy, but everything else results in circumlocution.

I deliberately used the expression “Asian male” to talk about taxi drivers, fast food workers, convenience shop employees etc who work after dark and who tend to be Asian males. Not all of the workers, of course. A major subset are Indian subcontinent origin Muslims.

In the abuse cases, thus far, a majority of the perpetrators have been Indian subcontinent origin Muslims, from Pakistani families. Who have Muslim mates from other countries.

But who knows whether other Asian groups or white skinned perpetrators will emerge from future investigations? Nobody will ever know if investigations are sent off to look for “Muslim abusers”.

The scandal is that abused teenagers were disregarded as potential witnesses, that police and social services workers weren’t bothered enough to care.

151. Charlieman

@147. vimothy:

Let’s skip the argument about conditionality for a bit.

Me: “It is a scenario in which Asian men will be more present than in
the overall population.”

vimothy: “The relevant question is why.”

Why what?

Why are Asian men and Asian Muslim men (and their mates) more present after dark on the street, working in takeaways and taxis?

Do some people choose a job that gets them close to vulnerable young people? Don’t bother answering: we all know the answer to that.

Why what else?

152. white trash

@150 “… if investigations are sent off to look for “Muslim abusers”.

Why are you suggesting that? That would be stupid.

As you say it is a scandal that teenagers were repeatedly disregarded, but sadly not unusual. Young people are generally ignored. Poor and disadvantaged people are generally ignored. So if you’re disadvantaged AND young then you’re doubly at risk. Add to that the whole ethnic sensitivity issue and it’s a minor miracle that any of this rape and abuse culture has ever come to trial at all.

145

Calling your analysis simplistic is not a straw man it is an opinion, straw manning is misquoting a person’s position and then burning it down with some moralistic argument or other evidence to support your own position as you did @132 & 135.

My own agenda is very simple, I am attempting to understand how and why these gangs have been getting away with prolonged sexual abuse when they have been clearly acting in a criminal way. This appears to disturb yourself and Hedgie, surely you must question why so many females are subject to harrowing sexual and violent assault but are not brought to justice in a timely manner. Now you can assert that it is people such as myself who are not happy with an easy racist answer, but this state of affairs has been going on for over a century and appears to be the same in all industrial countries, with or without large Muslim populations. Moreover, grooming young girls in groups is not confined to Asian/Muslims.

144

Now you are rejecting research because it is not current, but it does show that the phenomenon of grooming in groups is not isolated to Asians/Muslims. Once again I will repeat that culture plays a part but not tribalism or we need to look at the ‘tribalism’ of the white gangs.

149
Agree

154. white trash

Wikipedia: “A straw man … is a type of argument … based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet non-equivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position”

And Steve, this is exactly what you are trying to do to me. You initially misrepresented me as having a “simplistic” analysis when in fact I had not even put forward an analysis of the events in the first place.

Steve: “you can assert that it is people such as myself who are not happy with an easy racist answer”

Now you’re doing it again Steve. Where have I put forward any “racist” answer?

154

Your post @145 ‘systematic ethnic & mysogynistic’ sounds pretty racist to me. @148 ‘It is a religious culture that unites them as brothers in crime’ referring to their Muslim background.

But I suspect that you have run out of steam on this debate because instead of engaging with the subject you want to debate about the semantics of a straw man btw, an honest expression of an opinion does not denote a straw man.

156. Charlieman

@152. white trash: “Add to that the whole ethnic sensitivity issue and it’s a minor miracle that any of this rape and abuse culture has ever come to trial at all.”

Your point is…

…to make a pointless point.

157. Charlieman

@152. white trash: “@150 “… if investigations are sent off to look for “Muslim abusers”.

Why are you suggesting that? That would be stupid.”

Because coppers aren’t acknowledged for intelligence.

Why are Asian men and Asian Muslim men (and their mates) more present after dark on the street, working in takeaways and taxis?

No.

Look, think about what you are proposing. Suppose I were to say to you that a crime has been committed and that the perpetrator of the crime was a taxi driver. Suppose we also know that all taxi drivers are overweight males who smoke. A fortiori, the perpetrator of the crime was an overweight male who smokes. What if we knew that the perpetrator of the crime was an overweight male who smokes, and that all overweight males were taxi drivers? Equivalently we can argue that A fortiori, the perpetrator was a taxi driver.

The problem with this line of analysis is that there’s no explanation of what causes taxi drivers or overweight males who smoke to commit the particular crime, it’s just an ex post manipulation of statistics. So you can try to say that vulnerable, white, non-Muslim girls get a lot of taxis or buy a lot of kebabs, and that with taxis and kebabs, “one thing leads to another” and before you know it you’ve got child sex rings, gang rape and torture and all the rest, so it’s inevitable that white girls are going to be the victims of this sickness, and that Asian Muslim men feature disproportionately as taxi drivers or workers in takeaways, so it’s inevitable that they are going to be the perpetrators, but that’s obviously a very silly argument.

Look, you seem like an intelligent person, but you are studiously missing the point on this thread. Why do taxi drivers have so little regard for white non-Muslim girls so much that they think it’s okay to treat them like chattel? Is it a taxi-driver-non-taxi-driver thing?

159. So Much For Subtlety

153. steveb – “Now you are rejecting research because it is not current, but it does show that the phenomenon of grooming in groups is not isolated to Asians/Muslims.”

That might be true steve, but there are specific race-related reasons why it is likely *these* specific groomers got away with it for so long aren’t there? Specifically the fact that Nick Griffin was arrested and charged for, among other things, pointing out what was going on.

Do you think that perhaps the British legal system, the British public, and everyone else involved in this thread owe the fat little Nazi a public apology?

160. Charlieman

158. vimothy: “Look, you seem like an intelligent person…”

Flattery will get you nowhere, ducky.

“Why do taxi drivers have so little regard for white non-Muslim girls so much that they think it’s okay to treat them like chattel? Is it a taxi-driver-non-taxi-driver thing?”

Turn the circumstances around, and consider where teenagers hang around at night because they have no other place to go. They hang around the shopping parade and banter with passers by, some of whom might identify a vulnerable youngster.

The location and the people (mostly harmless, as Douglas Adams once wrote) create the scenario for grooming and subsequent abuse. The place could be anywhere, but the street grooming cases identified thus far are about Muslim blokes. We know this to be true because, with great reluctance, police forces and social service agencies were forced to look at evidence that they held about offences.

Think about opportunity: bored teenagers hanging around. Abusers look for opportunity; low social status abusers groom on the streets; middle class abusers take kids to the theatre.

161. Charlieman

@159. So Much For Subtlety: “Specifically the fact that Nick Griffin was arrested and charged for, among other things, pointing out what was going on.”

Nick Griffin was prosecuted and acquitted for charges of inciting racial hatred. Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley at the time, spoke on similar topics which made her unpopular. Some of her concerns, topically those relating to sexual abuse, have been validated.

153

“Now you are rejecting research because it is not current, but it does show that the phenomenon of grooming in groups is not isolated to Asians/Muslims.”

I an pointing out that the research has been criticised on the basis that it may be unsound – that was certainly the view of Andrew Norfolk of the Times. He ascertained the existence of a specific Pakistani grooming model – Berelowitz rejected that. But it was Norfolk’s research which has been the start point for the HOC Select Committee, Norfolk received the thanks of the Committee. And he has won the Paul Foot investigative journalist of the year award. Apparently the weakness of the Berelowitz report is in conflating much less serious behaviour with the kind of extreme abuse seen in the Pakistani model.

I have of course never claimed that group or gang grooming is an Asian Muslim monopoly – but what is absolutely clear is that Pakistani participation is wholly disproportionate.

“Once again I will repeat that culture plays a part but not tribalism or we need to look at the ‘tribalism’ of the white gang”

First of all you would have to demonstrate the existence of equivalent white gangs going through the
criminal justice system.

But here again we get this blank refusal from you to face reality. The culture from which the groomers spring is an Islamic tribal culture – Starkey was right when he commented that their values were “entrenched in the foothills of the Punjab”.

Will you please desist from these evasions and address the Taj Hargey quote I put to you directly.

How else is the extreme hatred demonstrated by the grooming gangs to be accounted for?

Oh and you have also been avoiding the unpleasant case where a gang lured girls from Telford to Birmingham to celebrate eid. If that isn’t tribal what else it? As you presumably disagree with that please give your view of it

159

See answer @161

Why did the gangs get away with the grooming and abuse for so long, you are suggesting that it is because of the race of the offenders and this is the position of Hedgie. It is not my position, if we look at the inaction of agencies when dealing with male on female violence and sexual assault, it is clear that this approach is the norm, whoever the abuser is. We need to change it but not just for Asian gangs.

162

‘I have never claimed that group or gang grooming is an Asian Muslim monopoly’

No you haven’t, so why do you only want to discuss the problem in terms of Asian Muslims, this has been my criticism of your position from the beginning.

Also, because of the fact that group grooming is not an Asian Muslim monopoly, I reject that it is tribalism based on their religious beliefs.

164. white trash

OK, ignoring Steve’s lame and diversionary attempts to accuse me of racism, the fact is that, far from having any fixed dogmatic view, as he falsely asserts, I didn’t have much of “an analysis” before coming to this thread, but having slept on it overnight I now do.

Nobody seems to have mentioned the whole priestly child grooming scandal here. Why not?

Some Buddhist sects are also just beginning to acknowledge huge problems of child abuse.

As I said earlier, this is in substantial part (not exclusively, obviously) about ORGANISED RELIGION and how it controls people and screws them up psychologically. There’s reams of literature and research on this.

First thing a religion or cult wants to do is control people’s attitude to sex and sexuality. With long-established religious super-structures like Islam, Xianity, or Buddhism this is done by full immersion brainwashing from even before birth onwards.

Our society is full of people damaged by this. People have been conditioned to think in hierarchies and repress our sexuality. Repressing sexuality never works, because we have innate sexual drive. All that happens is that the sex drive is twisted and perverted, so it is acted out in abusive ways.

This also explains why it is so hard to stop this abuse; it is deeply rooted in the hierarchical and authoritarian structures that permeate every aspect of our society.

164

Good post, I totally agree with your analysis on religion except that I would also add that both Catholic and Protestant organizations have had their fair share of priestly abuse. We saw how religion can control absolutely with the Branch Davidians. We must also be wary of confusing the message of the scriptures with the practice/interpretations created to serve self-interest.

163

“No you haven’t, so why do you only want to discuss the problem in terms of Asian Muslims, this has been my criticism of your position from the beginning.”

Because the gang rape grooming trials have overwhelmingly featured Pakistanis.

Andrew Norfolk writes of a Pakistani model, he says that grooming has become “normalised” amongst groups of friends, relatives and work collagues. He rightly claims that the groomers have no fear of being turned in by their own people. And that is one of the main reasons for the intractability of these vile occurences, unacceptable as that is to you.

“Also, because of the fact that group grooming is not an Asian Muslim monopoly, I reject that it is tribalism based on their religious beliefs.”

I wrote that it was not an Asian Muslim monopoly because I did not wish to overstate the case, nobody has a monopoly of imformation.

But I challenge you to show me any White British equivalent of the Oxford, Derby, Rochdale x 3, Telford and other street grooming cases, with the hatred, degredation, humilation and contempt of the victims displayed, and the number of perpretators involved.

167. So Much For Subtlety

161. Charlieman

Nick Griffin was prosecuted and acquitted for charges of inciting racial hatred.

Yes, specifically, among other things, alleging that there were gangs of Asian men grooming and raping White girls.

As I said, he was right wasn’t he?

Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley at the time, spoke on similar topics which made her unpopular. Some of her concerns, topically those relating to sexual abuse, have been validated.

Unpopular with whom?

steveb

See answer @161

There is no answer there.

Why did the gangs get away with the grooming and abuse for so long, you are suggesting that it is because of the race of the offenders and this is the position of Hedgie.

No I am suggesting it is because people like you protected them by crying racism at the drop of a hat and before you had any evidence either way. Yet the Fat Stormtrooper was right wasn’t he?

white trash

Nobody seems to have mentioned the whole priestly child grooming scandal here. Why not?

Because it is irrelevant. These gangs arrested so far have probably committed more sexual acts – and vastly more vile acts – on these girls than all the priestly scandals since 1945.

Some Buddhist sects are also just beginning to acknowledge huge problems of child abuse.

The Hare Krishnas have very sensibly gone into bankruptcy and reconstituted themselves to escape legal action.

As I said earlier, this is in substantial part (not exclusively, obviously) about ORGANISED RELIGION and how it controls people and screws them up psychologically. There’s reams of literature and research on this.

No there is not. Especially as these problems are just as common – and probably more common – in disorganised groups. There is also a large literature on sexual abuse among Hippy Communes. But that is alright because they do not have billions of pounds worth of assets. So no one is suing them. Let us remember the Green politician Danny Cohn-Bendt who used to whip his penis out when he was a kindergarten teacher and let the children play with it.

This is not an issue about religion but about humanity.

Repressing sexuality never works, because we have innate sexual drive. All that happens is that the sex drive is twisted and perverted, so it is acted out in abusive ways.

Which is a nice theory but it does not work in practice. School children are safer with the Catholic Church than they are in secular schools. As you can see every day if you pick up the newspapers.

168. Charlieman

@167. So Much For Subtlety: “As I said, he [Nick Griffin] was right wasn’t he?”

Perhaps. A stopped clock is right twice a day. And I do not have the desire or effort to look at the case transcripts for R vs Griffin.

“[re: Ann Cryer, MP for Keighley] Unpopular with whom?”

It can be hard to find much about ten year old news stories but here is a contemporary report:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1439568/Asian-men-accused-of-grooming-children-for-sex.html

“But Ann Cryer, Labour MP for Keighley, said the Asian culture which encourages young men to marry young girls from their village was a factor in what was happening.”

Ann Cryer was correct to observe that girls were being groomed by street wise guys. The quote above demonstrates irrational reactions all round to the Bradford allegations.

As others in this thread have pointed out, abusers aren’t solely Asian or Muslim.

169. So Much For Subtlety

168. Charlieman

Perhaps. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

And so perhaps jail time was not the best solution to that little problem was it? Perhaps in Britian we should not be jailing people, even Nazis, for being right?

It can be hard to find much about ten year old news stories but here is a contemporary report:

So she was unpopular with the metropolitan elite was she? Was she re-elected? Yes she was. Another person smeared for telling the truth.

And people wonder why the truth took so long to come out!

As others in this thread have pointed out, abusers aren’t solely Asian or Muslim.

Motes and beams. Ironic really. The wider you define the problem, the more you can grey-wash the criminals by blaming all of humanity. It is not a sensible response. This sort of crime is almost totally unique to one or two particular communities in modern Britain.

170. Charlieman

@169. So Much For Subtlety:; “And people wonder why the truth took so long to come out!”

The truth did not emerge because coppers and social service employees didn’t care. Ann Cryer spotted failure. You want to score political points; for you it is more pertinent to make a point than fix stuff.

171. Charlieman

@169. So Much For Subtlety: “Was she re-elected? Yes she was. Another person smeared for telling the truth.”

I reckon that you wouldn’t have known about Ann Cryer had I not mentioned her name. You are just an opportunist pop up.

172. So Much For Subtlety

170. Charlieman

The truth did not emerge because coppers and social service employees didn’t care.

No one suggested they did not care. A magnificent strawman. As I pointed out, they did not act because everyone alleged racism every time someone complained. And they even jailed someone for pointing out what was going on. Not the rapists. The person telling the truth about the rapes.

Ann Cryer spotted failure. You want to score political points; for you it is more pertinent to make a point than fix stuff.

I did make a point. This abuse went on for so long because people like you jailed people who told the truth about it. That is a very pertinent point.

Charlieman

I reckon that you wouldn’t have known about Ann Cryer had I not mentioned her name. You are just an opportunist pop up.

Reckon away. It does not mean I am wrong. Why were so many of these girls abused for so long? Because people like the nice people who post here at LC jailed other people for talking about it. That remains the bottom line.

173. Charlieman

@172. So Much For Subtlety

I have said several times on this thread that teenage girls were abused because police and social services did not care about them. I am saying it again. People who should have been bothered didn’t give a shit. There is no magnificent strawman.

To my knowledge, nobody was imprisoned for suggesting that Bradford teenagers were abused by Asian Muslim gangs. Nick Griffin (and a bloke whose name escapes me) were prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred. I am unaware of any banging up.

As I have mentioned previously, former MP Ann Cryer kicked up a stink. The Bradford Telegraph and Argus made a lot of noise. Nobody went to gaol.

174. So Much For Subtlety

173. Charlieman

I have said several times on this thread that teenage girls were abused because police and social services did not care about them. I am saying it again. People who should have been bothered didn’t give a shit. There is no magnificent strawman.

That is a bizarre claim. Either the entire police force and social services have only recruited psychopaths for the last few decades or there was some other reason. Why would police and social services not investigate? Well Occam’s Razor says to take the simplest explanation – which yours is not. People were locked up for mentioning the fact that Asian gangs were grooming girls. No other explanation is needed.

To my knowledge, nobody was imprisoned for suggesting that Bradford teenagers were abused by Asian Muslim gangs. Nick Griffin (and a bloke whose name escapes me) were prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred. I am unaware of any banging up.

Griffin was not convicted but he was certainly arrested and jailed.

167

Evidence is always a good position to start from, are you suggesting that it is only ‘people like me’, whatever that means, who finds evidence a useful investigative tool. Nick Griffin pointed-out the sexual and violent abuse of Asian/Muslim gangs, he made no reference to the white gangs or the long history of abuse that all women have suffered but where the authorities didn’t act. It’s that old chestnut – is withholding the truth tantamount to telling lies?

174

Strange use of the term ‘psychopath’, but perhaps you have a another and better theory as to why so many females of all ethnic groups are subjected to sexual/violent abuse and yet little is done by the authorities? Or perhaps there is some kind of mass hypnosis at work.

Try this from: “Slavery in the Arab World” by Gordon Murray

“Young women were targeted because of their value as concubines or sex slaves in markets. ‘The most common and enduring purpose for acquiring slaves in the Arab world was to exploit them for sexual purposes,’ writes Gordon. ‘These women were nothing less than sexual objects who, with some limitations, were expected to make themselves available to their owners. . .Islamic law, as already noted, catered to the sexual interests of a man by allowing him to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as his purse allowed.’ Young women and girls were often ‘inspected’ before purchase in private areas of the slave market by the prospective buyer.”
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm

Try also this video on YouTube: The Arab Muslim Slave Trade Of Africans, The Untold Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zM_MzkLKPY

178. Charlieman

@174. So Much For Subtlety: “That is a bizarre claim [that police and social services did not care about abuse survivors]. Either the entire police force and social services have only recruited psychopaths for the last few decades or there was some other reason. Why would police and social services not investigate? Well Occam’s Razor says to take the simplest explanation – which yours is not. People were locked up for mentioning the fact that Asian gangs were grooming girls. No other explanation is needed.”

Let’s take one sentence from that paragraph: “Why would police and social services not investigate?”.

The girls were not taken seriously. Some adults were concerned and reported their observations to the police and social services. Social service workers reported their concerns to the police.

Bugger all resulted.

Occam’s Razor, the search for the simplest explanation why public servants failed to do their job, is satisfied when it is evident that public servants were not bothered. One of the survivors describes returning to a care home covered in bruises and cigarette burns, and nothing happened. The police officer who joined it all together (and who did care) examined many police reports that recorded abuse. Care home workers tell us about phoning the police after seeing vulnerable girls returning from absence.

Your version of Occam’s Razor is to seek conspiracy.


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