Reporter paints protest against diplomat as racist


3:55 pm - February 21st 2013

by Ben White    


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A senior reporter for The Jewish Chronicle has disingenuously insinuated that student protests yesterday at the University of Essex against the presence of Israel’s deputy ambassador were antisemitic in nature.

Marcus Dysch initially tweeted, without evidence, that embassy official Alon Roth-Snir had been at risk of physical “attack” and was thus “forced to flee for his safety”.

He then rowed back on this with a quote from university authorities saying there had been “no threat of violence” (the university’s Head of Communications dismissed Dysch’s claim of an attempted “attack” as “an exaggeration”).

But it was Dysch’s next tweet that was most shocking:

What rank hypocrisy. We know very well what the response would be from Dysch and his Stephen Pollard-edited paper if a politician or journalist was caught conflating “Jews” and “Israel” – yet the same people don’t bat an eyelid about doing it themselves to smear Palestine solidarity activists.

Dysch received a number of tweets back pointing out his error, including one that said he “surely [meant] Israeli diplomat. We should not fall into our enemies trap”.

Unfortunately, this kind of cheap, deniable intimation is par for the course. When pro-Israel groups attacked a senior Amnesty International employee on the flimsy pretext he had targeted three MPs for a joke on their basis they were Jewish – rather than of their political views – Marcus Dysch and The Jewish Chronicle were only too happy to help.

So when someone deliberately suggests that the issue with an Israeli diplomat or pro-Israel politicians is the fact they are Jews, not the policies they represent or defend, exactly who is encouraging anti-semitism?

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About the author
This is a guest article. Ben White is a freelance journalist who has written for Guardian's CIF, Electronic Intifada and others. His book 'Israeli Apartheid: A Beginner's Guide' (Pluto Press), was published in 2009.
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Reader comments


Someone slips up in a Twitter comment and that’s obviously the most important thing here, never mind that the person in question was prevented by force from giving his talk.

Someone slips up in a Twitter comment

Weren’t you complaining about people mixing up Israeli with Jewish and how that’s anti-semitic in another thread?

Your article is anti-Semitic as well. But what can we expect from someone who published a book on “Israeli Apartheid”.

The only Apartheid ever in Israel was when you Brits tried to colonize it in the early part of the last century and prevented Jews from entering their country, and let them die in the Nazi death camps.

How predictable. All criticism of Israel is antisemitic these days. Then they throw a hissy fit when you mention the J word.

Dear Sally, It is great that you have so much time for dealing with the Jews’ state, but it is so sad that you neglect all the Muslim countries that slaughter others as well as their own on a daily basis.

This leaves you not only as an anti-Semitic, but also as a cruel and hypocrite that does not really care for the needy, and willing to sell their life for your unholy quest against the Jews.

@Sally

You justify violence against Jews by calling it”criticism”. Can we use the same type of “criticism” against you?

Sunny Hundal @2

Was I, which thread was that ? You’ve missed the point, of course Israeli and Jew aren’t the same thing, the slip up lies is the fact that twitter lends itself to bashing out comments quickly and then realising you’ve said something you didn’t mean. That may have been what happened here or it may have been that as anti Israeli activists are very cavalier to say the least when it comes to the difference there’s no point in pandering to their pretence that they aren’t up to their armpits in anti-Semitism.
What happened to my second comment, did you not think it germane to the issue ?

How many of the Palestinians, who are currently been treated in the same way as Gypsies and Jewish people in Germany circa 1933-39, are Semites?
It is a tad disingenuous, to say the least, to play the victim when your the perpetrator? I have known in person a survivor of Belsen (her family once numbered 200). I saw the number tattooed on her forearm, and both her & her long dead family would turn in their mostly unmarked graves at Israel choosing the same route as Germany did then.

The people of West Bank and Gaza Strip are reacting in exactly the same way that Jewish people did between 1941-44 in the various ghettos of Eastern Europe – of which Warsaw was the largest. After all they do have the knowledge of how Jewish people reacted when they were persecuted with the same kind of policies, so why wait until the death camps are built before acting?

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005407

Are you going to claim that me pointing out to you that mostly Semitic people reacting violently in the West Bank & Gaza Strip ghettos is itself anti Semitic? Are you that perverted, are you that brainwashed by playing the victim memes of the Israeli government?

Dissident

The term anti-Semitic refers specifically to being anti Jewish. As for comparing Israel with the Nazis or suggesting that the plight of the Palestinians is in any way comparable with that of Holocaust victims I shall, with great effort, restrain myself and suggest that you calm down and acquire a sense of proportion. The particular comparison of the West Bank and Gaza with the Warsaw ghetto is so outrageous that I can only, being generous, ascribe it to appalling historical ignorance.

But it was Dysch’s next tweet that was most shocking:

I’m sure it turned your hair white.

Sally (inevitably):

How predictable. All criticism of Israel is antisemitic these days.

It doesn’t have to be, it’s just that you have chosen to be antisemitic rather than criticise Israel on legitimate grounds (of which there are many).

Then they throw a hissy fit when you mention the J word

Who are they?

Still, you managed to use a capital ‘J’ for once – though you still can’t bring yourself to write ‘Jew’.

The people of West Bank and Gaza Strip are reacting in exactly the same way that Jewish people did between 1941-44 in the various ghettos of Eastern Europe – of which Warsaw was the largest.

I was off school that week and missed the bit in History about Jews firing rockets at Berlin from buildings occupied by civilians.

After all they do have the knowledge of how Jewish people reacted when they were persecuted with the same kind of policies, so why wait until the death camps are built before acting?

Eh? Jewish people? And how did they react to the Holocaust? Bombing the shit out of Germany? No, that was the Allies. Occupying half of Germany and building a wall across it? Nope, that was the Russians.

What they did was call for those who had committed the worst atrocities to be put on trial before an internationsl court – the rest of it, some hypothetical Holocaust against Palestinians, is entirely in the onanistic imagination of you, White and Sally.

@ Thornavis

That is why I said currently treated like Jewish people were circa 1933-39 when they were mostly just removed from their homes and places of work and placed in ghettos with only the odd murder. Incidentally, I have read a lot about what happened in Germany back then, ranging from the autobiography of Max Ernst (lived in pre WW2 Germany, witnessed what was happening and survived by fleeing…) through Schindler’s Ark to Anthony Beevoir’s Berlin. Arguing from ignorance??

My point is it subsequently escalated into something infinitely worse, when Germany was backed into a corner by the outbreak of hostilities. Can you trust the Israeli government to not escalate? Also I am not the one who started using Godwin’s law on this thread, who is guilty of that? Ah yes, Lee James is. Or is utilising Godwin’s law only permissible for an apologist of bad Israeli policies?

@ Shatterface

They did have access to Molotov Cocktails and small arms in the Warsaw ghetto. Which they used as effectively as they could. If they had access to rockets, are you seriously suggesting they wouldn’t have used them?

The term ‘semitic’ origiginally refered to a family of languages but or the benefit of those who want to play semantic games over the term ‘antisemitism':

While the term’s etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass (“Jew-hatred”) and that has been its normal use since then. For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered “hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity.

They did have access to Molotov Cocktails and small arms in the Warsaw ghetto. Which they used as effectively as they could. If they had access to rockets, are you seriously suggesting they wouldn’t have used them?

Ah, right – not only are Jews in general responsible for a future Holocaust they are also guilty of terrorist attacks from civilian buildings in some alternative history and this justifies terrorist attacks by Palestinians.

Sneaky buggers.

Dissident

You weren’t just making a comparison with pre 1939 Germany, which would be distasteful enough, you also said this : “The people of West Bank and Gaza Strip are reacting in exactly the same way that Jewish people did between 1941-44 in the various ghettos of Eastern Europe – of which Warsaw was the largest.” Don’t tell me that that doesn’t imply a comparison between the Israelis and the Nazis. Not that it makes much sense, the Jews in the east European wartime ghettos were entirely passive until the Warsaw uprising.
What does this mean, “My point is it subsequently escalated into something infinitely worse, when Germany was backed into a corner by the outbreak of hostilities. Can you trust the Israeli government to not escalate?” Backed into a corner ? Do you mean to imply that there was some kind of excuse for the Nazi murders ? The only threats of genocide in the ME come from the Islamists, against Jews, what possible circumstances could you envisage where Israel either had the motive or the means to attempt to wipe out the Palestinians ? This is just fantasy, I would categorise it as a version of the Blood Libel.

My point is it subsequently escalated into something infinitely worse, when Germany was backed into a corner by the outbreak of hostilities.

Who’s backing Israel into a corner? And why are they doing so? Who is ‘Poland’ in this scenario and when do the Israelis invade? Who is the ‘Soviet Union’ in this? Have they made their pact with ‘Stalin’ yet? Who is Mussollini?

Can you trust the Israeli government to not escalate?

You’ve created a bullshit analogy – I don’t have to ‘trust’ them not to escalate any more than I need to ‘trust’ they aren’t building their own Death Star or breeding Orcs.

There is no excuse for actions that disenfranchise an entire people of their homes, livelihoods and lives in any context. I see no difference between the actions of Israel today and the actions of other people worldwide – Or are you suggesting that Israel is somehow exempt?

” I see no difference between the actions of Israel today and the actions of other people worldwide – Or are you suggesting that Israel is somehow exempt?”

Which other people, be specific, don’t hide behind vague generalities.

“There is no excuse for actions that disenfranchise an entire people of their homes, livelihoods and lives in any context.”

Which entire people have been deprived of these things ? Not the Palestinians for sure.

19. So Much for Subtlety

3. Lee James

The only Apartheid ever in Israel was when you Brits tried to colonize it in the early part of the last century and prevented Jews from entering their country, and let them die in the Nazi death camps.

The British did not try to colonise Palestine. More to the point, they did not let anyone die in Nazi death camps either. Why do you feel a need to provide the exact opposite image of the froth-mouthed nutters on the Trot side in this debate?

8. Dissident

How many of the Palestinians, who are currently been treated in the same way as Gypsies and Jewish people in Germany circa 1933-39, are Semites?

Really? They have to wear a star on their clothes? They are not allowed to marry Jews? They have no civil rights at all? Are you really making this claim?

The fact that Israelis and Palestinians both speak Semitic languages is neither here or there. The English language is rarely scientifically accurate. It means what it means.

I saw the number tattooed on her forearm, and both her & her long dead family would turn in their mostly unmarked graves at Israel choosing the same route as Germany did then.

So you are claiming Israel is turning Palestinians into lamp shades and bars of soap then are you?

After all they do have the knowledge of how Jewish people reacted when they were persecuted with the same kind of policies, so why wait until the death camps are built before acting?

At some point Dissie old chum, this is a mental health problem not a historical or political debate. Seek help.

20. Chaise Guevara

@ 3 Lee James

“Your article is anti-Semitic as well. ”

Uh, how so?

They used to have a pool table in here……

It’s surely a matter of time before these brownshirts start burning books.

Nothing like a thread about the israeli palestinian conflict to polarise the normally rational commenters on the LC and get them running for their flag.
Not that i have the answer, but i’m pretty sure fanning the hate on blogs from either side does nothing to help.
Should anyone want a death star try here
http://kck.st/14NKauA
but be warned, the counter is here
http://kck.st/14Zmio0

Not always Littleox!!! It’s very rare, but possible to have a reasonable debate about Israel. But hey ho, lets try again…

After opening gambits I felt it is not worth trying with people who think Israel is in the ‘that’s different coz they’re special’ category, and refuse point blank to see that they’re no different to any other tribalistic group that identifies itself through a pathologically victimised lens which blinds to their own actions!

Look at every other unjust action our species has perpetrated worldwide, from the Saxon invasion of post Roman Britain to Suharto’s takeover of East Timor and you’ll see a depressingly familiar pattern…

‘Dehumanising the victim makes things simpler
It’s like breathing with a respirator
It eases the conscience of the most
Conscious and calculating of violators
But death is the silence, in this language
of violence, death is the silence’

How about real world events in this case? How are the many decent Palestinian and Israeli people really treated, who end up been silenced themselves by the monstrous behaviour of far too many ideologues on both sides.

You see too many people ultimately betraying their own tribe by dehumanising the other side…

25. Anne O'Nimmus

Some of the reasons undoubtedly behind the rejection of the deputy ambassador:
Ben White on al Jazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/02/2013220152044327694.html
which includes an infographic of the “peace” in Gaza since the “ceasefire” in Neovember.
Palestinians killed – 4
Palestinians wounded – 91
(by the Israeli army)
Shooting attacks by the Israeli army in the Gaza Strip – 63
Israeli army incursions into the Gaza Strip – 13
Israeli navy attacks on Gaza fishermen – 30

Palestinian attacks from the Gaza Strip into Israel – 2 mortars fired.

And in the West Bank – 6 Palestinians killed during the same period (while no bombs or mortars were fired), 618 wounded.

Now, does that look like an Israeli “ceasefire” to anyone with an unbiased eye? It won’t stop while Israel lusts after the land, the water, the resources of the Palestinians.

As for Israeli apartheid, just read this by Susan Abulhawa:
http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/facts-on-israels-systemic.html
for a listing of laws which privilege Jews over other citizens in Israel, and the military laws (not applicable to Jews) which rob and imprison non Jews in the small remainder of Palestine – ie the West Bank.

Should the Israeli deputy ambassador be any more welcome than an apologist for Apartheid South Africa would have been?

“The British did not try to colonise Palestine. More to the point, they did not let anyone die in Nazi death camps either. Why do you feel a need to provide the exact opposite image of the froth-mouthed nutters on the Trot side in this debate?”
Good point.
Again polarised views. The right feels that they must defend the actions of the Nety governments every action and the left to be critical of the state of Israel for every event.
1. I have sympathy for Palestinians, you have farm, then it’s taken from you because foreign governments feel guilt because of the actions of a madman and his genocidal acolytes but unfortunately you cannot turn back time and the Israelis are here to stay.
2. Israel is a secular (on the whole), free and democratic country unlike many of its neighbours. If I was a gay Muslim I know which side of the fence I would want to be.
3. Israel, even this government, is not going to commit genocide in any form.
4. But this Israeli government is committing ethnic cleansing. This was picked up, not by the BBC but the Israeli press. Now been critical of the Nety government is not been anti Semitic. The trouble with the righties on this site (Thornavis, Shatter, Harrys place and et al) is that they support Israel on every issue as response to some of the mad claims by the other side. Pavlovian responses

The tweet that Marcus Dysch made about a ”Jewish diplomat” is quite awful.
Where’s that no-mark Lamia from Harry’s Place to defend him here?
On HP they scream from the rooftops about anti-semitism if anyone ever says Jewish when they should mean Israeli.

As I said on there it’s just ‘cake and eat it’ arrogance. And they actually do Jews in general a great disservice as they so often claim to be speaking for Jews.

Ah dear. You must never slight or even mildly protest those promoting Israel. Even questioning the policy of Israel in regards to the Palestine issue, is obviously done by vile antisemites. Little regard must be paid to claims of abuse by Israeli’s against Palestinians, because it’s well known that such incidents never occur and again any suggestion that they have is antisemitic.

Er, isn’t Roth-Snir a Jewish national diplomat of the Jewish state of Israel, with whose existence Ben White has a fundamental problem, as have most of those activists, PSC’s being fundamentally anti-Zionist?

He was chased out for being a diplomat of a/the/that Jewish nation state.

Neither Ben White nor PSC has a problem with Israeli-Palestinian Arab Muslims or Christians.

Israel is a/the Jewish nation state, and ‘Jewish’ is one’s nationality, ‘Israeli’ one’s citizenship.

Ben White thinks the very existence of a Jewish state is a racist abomination, and won’t be satisfied until it is abolished, his (only acceptable) BDS goal. Now he claims that he doesn’t have a fundamental problem with Jewish national diplomats?

White’s fundamental problem with Israel is that it +is+ a Jewish state.

[When pro-Israel groups attacked a senior Amnesty International employee on the flimsy pretext he had targeted three MPs for a joke on their basis they were Jewish]

Actually it was because he grouped together 3 pro-Israel Jewish MPs and gratuitously identified them, and only them, with the most violent or militant American imperialist or hegemonic policy (they order 3 ‘B-52s’), just because they are Jewish and sympathetic with Israel.

It is that kind of crude essentializing, as well as singling out, that is both lazy and racist.

Your article on George Galloway, Sunny, is remarkably free of judgment. You leap on Marcus Dysch for calling an Israeli Jewish diplomat a Jewish diplomat but make no judgment as to Galloway’s refusing to debate someone because he is an Israeli Jew.

The same goes for our friend Benjamin.

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/02/21/watch-galloway-refuses-to-debate-with-an-israeli-walks-out/

35. Chaise Guevara

@ zkharya

The article about Galloway isn’t by Sunny, and it has the word “hypocrisy” right there in the title. If you mean the news story, it’s free of judgement because it’s not an opinion piece. News stories are listed on the right, opinion pieces are listed on the main page on the left.

Israel is a/the Jewish nation state, and ‘Jewish’ is one’s nationality, ‘Israeli’ one’s citizenship.

Zkharya, that’s pretty much ”the line” over on Harry’s Place – where people like myself who disagree get called ‘Jew haters’.
I have tried on that site, but no reasonable discussion is possible across ideological lines … because of that kind of fundamentalism.
You were one of the least bad though.

[The article about Galloway isn’t by Sunny,]

It is.

[and it has the word “hypocrisy” right there in the title.]

Not the one I can see.

[If you mean the news story, it’s free of judgement because it’s not an opinion piece. News stories are listed on the right]

E.g. this, BW’s piece?

[opinion pieces are listed on the main page on the left.]

This one isn’t.

[Zkharya, that’s pretty much ”the line” over on Harry’s Place]

Uhuh? If you say so.

Well, in any case, Jewish is nationality in Israel, as it has been in Christendom (and arguably Islam) for most of the last 2000 years.

Perhaps Marcus should have said ‘Israeli Jewish diplomat’ or ‘Jewish diplomat of the Jewish state’. But this is twitter.

White’s fundamental objection to Israel is that it is a Jewish state, and it is precisely that he wants abolished (unlike umpteen Arab, Islamic states and societies, including the Palestinian, present or potential), in line with his generally pro-Palestinian Arab Muslim and Christian, but deeply anti-Jewish, nationalist crusade.

[Zkharya, that’s pretty much ”the line” over on Harry’s Place – where people like myself who disagree get called ‘Jew haters’.]

I might add that Ben is always keen to stress the Palestinian nationality of Israeli Arab Muslims and Christians, as though he does not regard them as Israeli nationals. Which strongly suggests that he only regards Israeli Jews as properly or actually Israeli nationals. He is complaining that Marcus especially stresses the ‘Jewish’ part of ‘Israeli Jewish’, when he arguably only sees ‘Israeli national’ as ‘Israeli Jewish national’ himself.

Hello, Zkharya.

With regards to this thread, it is very hard to say anything critical about the current policies of your country without accusations of ‘Jew hating’ or ‘anti-semetism’ been bandied about. I have also been guilty of falling into Godwin’s law (see earlier posts) It is so hard to have a rational discussion about anything to do with Israel though – unfortunately.

@Dissident

“There is no excuse for actions that disenfranchise an entire people of their homes, livelihoods and lives in any context.”

Is this directed at the U.S.? Canada? Australia? New Zealand? Hmmm?

Or is it only used when your nose smells JEWS!

@Dissident

” It is so hard to have a rational discussion about anything to do with Israel though”

It really depends on your rational. If you solely blame Israel for crimes that far worse were committed by your own country, then this kind of “rational” is more known as antisemitism…

@ Konan
Wrong, I think that about any group of people that disenfranchise others. Have you read all my posts?

Anti-semitism is fine these days if you are on the left, haven’t you noticed. To confirm:

Black/Asian +5 points
Disabled +3
Gay +7
Palestinian +147
Female +2
White -4
Male -6
Football supporting sun reader -24
Sucessfull -15
Jewish -168

It’s all about splitting people into ethnicities and groups and harping on about who doesn’t have what. The human race is being held back by this neo-communist rubbish which seeks to deny we are all one, and keep dividing us, exactly the same way the far right do.

45. Chaise Guevara

@ 44

“Anti-semitism is fine these days if you are on the left, haven’t you noticed.

[...]

Jewish -168″

I’m on the left. Could you explain why you think I’m such a collossal bigot that I award people a massive -168 points for being Jewish, despite the fact that I generally don’t even realise whether or not someone is a Jew?

46. Dislecksick

There may be many individual people like yourself who aren’t bigotted, I was making a wider point about the modern left.

The Guardian and similar give platforms to groups like Hamas, who’s stated aim is pretty much to wipe the Jew from the face of the earth. No 2 state solution. No compromise. Also, not holding Hamas etc to account for their vast human rights abuses, continual blaming of all societies evils on bankers (a cloaked way of again saying Jewish). There are about 15 million or so Jews in the world, and 1.6 Billion Muslims. Who is the victimised minority here? the tiny strip of land they hang on to is all they have, but if the left had their way they would all be driven back to the sea…..

It’s completely fine to be antisemetic at hand wringing dinner parties these days, jews are no longer en vogue, they served a purpose with helping to get anything remotely right wing banned by citing the holocaust whenever anyone who is white talks of their own nationhood or culture…..I have Jewish ancestory (while not being a Jew) and this is apparent through my name. I have had several “boycott Israel” posters placed on my desks by Muslims and lefties in call centres I worked in, and my complaints were completely ignored. Imagine that the other way around. Perhaps my own personal experience is clouding my view somewhat but it seems to me the left have forgotten the values of equality and are just trying to get the boot on the other foot and start kicking….

47. Chaise Guevara

@ 46 Dislecksick

“The Guardian and similar give platforms to groups like Hamas, who’s stated aim is pretty much to wipe the Jew from the face of the earth.”

I thought it was to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. But anyway, giving a platform is not the same as supporting. I’d need to see specific examples to know whether you’re right.

“Also, not holding Hamas etc to account for their vast human rights abuses”

Are you honestly saying that, if I went to find Guardian articles critical of Hamas, I wouldn’t find any? I know that paper likes its coverage one-sided, but this seems to be pushing it.

“continual blaming of all societies evils on bankers (a cloaked way of again saying Jewish).”

Okaaay… if you hear “Jew” when someone says “banker”, that means one of two things. Either you’re antisemitic yourself, or you’re paranoid. From context I’d say it’s pretty obviously the latter. People are currently blaming bankers for a lot of our problems because they caused them (politicians and the people are also guilty; politicians are feeling the heat, but people tend not to blame themselves). We had a credit crunch, if you recall.

Basically, just because you can’t think about bankers without thinking about Jews, that doesn’t mean other people feel that way, and it’s unreasonable to assume that they share your irrational association and then condemn them for it. I know the “Jews = bankers” meme used to be popular but these days it seems to be the preserve of a sad lunatic fringe (which I’m not counting you amongst).

“There are about 15 million or so Jews in the world, and 1.6 Billion Muslims. Who is the victimised minority here?”

You’re conflating “victim” with “minority”, and “world” with “Israel/Palestine”. Within that specific corner of the world, the Palestinians certainly seem more like the victims. Not that there isn’t a laundry list of hurt and blame on either side. But they’re the underdogs, which is probably why so many on the left instinctively defend them, along with a habit of automatically wanting to defend Muslims because they’re demonised so much by many on the right.

“the tiny strip of land they hang on to is all they have, but if the left had their way they would all be driven back to the sea…”

Balls. I’m on the left, as is almost everyone I know well enough to discuss this stuff with, plus the majority of commenters on this site. I’ve never heard anyone express the view that Israelis, let alone Jews (you seem to confuse the two, or you wouldn’t say that Israel is “all they have left”) should be driven into the sea IRL, and I can’t remember hearing anyone say it online who wasn’t a candidate for Poe’s Law.

“It’s completely fine to be antisemetic at hand wringing dinner parties these days”

I wouldn’t know. But judging by your form thus far in your post, I’m not inclined to trust you as a source.

“jews are no longer en vogue, they served a purpose with helping to get anything remotely right wing banned by citing the holocaust whenever anyone who is white talks of their own nationhood or culture…”

What bans are we talking about here? The only one I can think of is Germany’s ban on swastikas and Holocaust denial, and while I disagree with that you have to admit there are special circumstances there. Oh, and that denialist who was, um, denied entry to the UK, but that was by a right-wing government, and it’s not really a ban as such.

“I have Jewish ancestory (while not being a Jew) and this is apparent through my name. I have had several “boycott Israel” posters placed on my desks by Muslims and lefties in call centres I worked in, and my complaints were completely ignored. Imagine that the other way around.”

I don’t know what form your protests took. If you said that politics should be left out of the workplace then it’s a point of debate. If you said these people should stop putting out posters purely because you disagree with them, or claim to be offended by them, then you’re flat wrong in my opinion.

“Perhaps my own personal experience is clouding my view somewhat but it seems to me the left have forgotten the values of equality and are just trying to get the boot on the other foot and start kicking”

With no offence intended, I do think something’s clouding your view. Obviously there are some antisemites on the Left, as well as the Right, but you’ve turned it into some huge endemic thing. You’ve constructed a conspiracy theory where the majority of leftists are more sympathetic to Palestine than Israel because of bigotry rather than the political considerations on the ground, and then you’ve decided that this alleged antisemitism takes the form of basically wanting a second Holocaust (“pushed into the sea”), all on the basis of no evidence as far as I can tell.

48. Dislecksick

- I thought it was to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth.

For now. read their pamphlet, the extremely long and old one.

-But anyway, giving a platform is not the same as supporting. I’d need to see specific examples to know whether you’re right.

OK, fine for other papers to give column inches to White Supremacists and the Real IRA then. Hamas are no less moderate than either.

Are you honestly saying that, if I went to find Guardian articles critical of Hamas, I wouldn’t find any? I know that paper likes its coverage one-sided, but this seems to be pushing it.

You are probably right here I concede on that. there is some balance to it.

if you hear “Jew” ……We had a credit crunch, if you recall.

Yes, but the left have ignored EVERYBODY else and placed the blame 100% on the Bankers. You don’t see the left clamouring for prison sentences for Gordon Brown etc. I take the point that it’s not JUST because they are Jewish. I am not massively that keen on the banking system either.

I have not seen that meme, but it doesn’t surprise me.

– “they’re the underdogs, which is probably why so many on the left instinctively defend them, along with a habit of automatically wanting to defend Muslims because they’re demonised so much by many on the right.

This is the telling point CG, yes, Muslims have been demonised by those on the right. You know why? Because the left deliberately and spitefully imported thousands upon thousands of Muslims (and immigrants in general) to out vote the right, render their arguments redundant and socially engineer centre right politics out of existance. No matter what reasons were placed in the public eye, this IS the cynical truth. At the same time, the left of the time did everything they could to make any form of dissent racism (example, Gordon browns racist “biggoted woman” comments). The left know that a/ Muslims and immigrants in general favour wealth redistribution HERE as most come here with very little, and b/ The party keeps getting better, because they tend to breed faster and in 20 years the right will be nothing, a small fragment of a bygone age. That is what happened, call me a nutter, call me Andrers Brevick or whatever, but that is the truth. These policies helped turned me from a SWP paper flogger to an (almost) EDL sympathiser.

….and that, is where the big sympathy for Hamas comes from, along. The new voting core of the left will have to be appeased, so like the chameleon we will pick an choose the injustices to trumpet. Not much about christians in Syria, nothing about Jewish beatings in the UK and vandilism of synagogues…the Armenian genocide never happened in their history books……

I don’t know what form your protests took. If you said that politics should be left out of the workplace then it’s a point of debate. If you said these people should stop putting out posters purely because you disagree with them, or claim to be offended by them, then you’re flat wrong in my opinion.

No, they were placed specifically on MY desk, directly below my name tag. Not on anyone elses. Directly targetted at me. I was a marxist at the time so I doubt it was something I said. NB If politics are allowed in the workplace, OK to put my “Send all immigrants home” poster up?

I’m just saying politics is cynical these days, it’s all about winning votes and the central policy thinkers don’t give a shit about morals, they want votes, and most of the anti-israel stuff is masked anti-semitism, to cultivate votes from Muslims.

So all in all, I agree, the left aren’t anti-semetic, most are decent people. But this strain of politik exists because it’s more about vote winning than anything else.

49. Chaise Guevara

@ 48 Dislecksick

“For now. read their pamphlet, the extremely long and old one.”

If you mean the Koran, that’s cheating. Unless you think the Salvation Army think anyone who wears garments made out of two types of cloth should be put to death.

“OK, fine for other papers to give column inches to White Supremacists and the Real IRA then. Hamas are no less moderate than either.”

That is indeed fine. Let people speak, then let others condemn them where appropriate. I’m not doing special pleading here. Remember I also said I was against Germany’s anti-Nazi laws.

“You are probably right here I concede on that. there is some balance to it.”

“Yes, but the left have ignored EVERYBODY else and placed the blame 100% on the Bankers. You don’t see the left clamouring for prison sentences for Gordon Brown etc.”

Uh, under what law do you think Brown should be jailed? This is another of your unsourced broad generalisations against “the left”, and once again I falsify it just by existing.

“I take the point that it’s not JUST because they are Jewish. I am not massively that keen on the banking system either.”

You’ve got no evidence that Jewishness factors into it at all. You also just said that bankers are Jewish, which is pretty hypocritical for someone accusing others of antisemitism. Got a source?

“I have not seen that meme, but it doesn’t surprise me.”

I honestly don’t get this. You think bankers = Jews. You think the left also think that bankers = Jews. But now you claim that you’ve never heard of the bankers = Jews meme. Doesn’t make sense.

“This is the telling point CG, yes, Muslims have been demonised by those on the right. You know why? Because the left deliberately and spitefully imported thousands upon thousands of Muslims (and immigrants in general) to out vote the right, render their arguments redundant and socially engineer centre right politics out of existance.”

I reckon it’s got more to do with 9/11 and xenophobia myself. If we’re engineering the centre right out of existence, how come that’s the political middle ground at the moment?

“These policies helped turned me from a SWP paper flogger to an (almost) EDL sympathiser.”

To be honest, what I’m getting from this is that you’re attracted to extreme and melodramatic political positions.

“and that, is where the big sympathy for Hamas comes from, along.”

You’ve yet to provide evidence of this “big sympathy”.

“Not much about christians in Syria, nothing about Jewish beatings in the UK and vandilism of synagogues…the Armenian genocide never happened in their history books……”

Sorry, are we still comparing these to the Holocaust?

“No, they were placed specifically on MY desk, directly below my name tag. Not on anyone elses.”

OK, if true that qualifies as bullying in the workplace. But it’s just one workplace and probably just a couple of individuals.

“I’m just saying politics is cynical these days, it’s all about winning votes and the central policy thinkers don’t give a shit about morals, they want votes, and most of the anti-israel stuff is masked anti-semitism, to cultivate votes from Muslims.”

With you on the cynicism, not on the antisemite thing. Again you lack evidence.

Israel’s refusal to give up effective control over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, its refusal to let the Palestinians form their own viable and independent state, and its continued harassment, humiliation and economic exploitation of Palestinian people, are crimes which the entire international community should be putting an end to.

I don’t give a fuck about a tweet by a “senior” journalist (is like like a “senior backbencher”?)on the Jewish Chronicle. Anyone who gets this worked up about 140 characters written by some guy nobody has heard of has got something strange going on.

51. Peter Gilkes

How are the black Africans getting on in Israel these days?


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