E.London residents abused by homophobic ‘Muslim patrol’


3:46 pm - January 21st 2013

by Sunny Hundal    


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A growing number of East London citizens are being harassed by a (likely very small) group of religious fanatics calling themselves ‘The Muslim Patrol’.

The men video themselves confronting people on the streets and ask them to throw away alcohol or tell women to cover up. In one video (below) they harass and abuse a man by calling him a “bloody fag” and tell him to leave from what they say is a ‘Muslim area’.

The disgusting tactics are straight out of the play-book of the now banned group al-Muhajiroun, who also occasionally surface as ‘Muslims Against Crusaders’ and have been known to burn poppies on Remembrance Day, hold pickets against British soldiers returning from abroad and demonstrate in front of the US embassy.

The group is also shunned from almost all British Mosques.

East London Mosque released a statement last week condemning the men:

Individuals claiming to be self-styled ‘Muslim patrols’ have been harassing members of the public on the streets of east London late at night, including outside our mosque after it has closed. They have anonymously uploaded their exploits to the internet.

These actions are utterly unacceptable and clearly designed to stoke tensions and sow discord. We wholly condemn them. The East London Mosque is committed to building co-operation and harmony between all communities in this borough. The actions of this tiny minority have no place in our faith nor on our streets.

The Mosque says they’ve also got in touch with the police to report incidents.

For many activists the videos are reminiscent of a campaign last year by a group of men (very likely the same) who kept putting up homophobic stickers around East London. That campaign came to an abrupt end when 18 year old youth was arrested and found guilty.

Videos uploaded by the ‘Muslim Patrol’

.

(via @PatrickStrud, @bobchurchill and Tower Hamlets Watch)

UPDATE: Thanks to @bashaa, a local imam from East London Mosque gave a sermon specifically criticising and addressing these incidents.

[The story was first broken by The Commentator, and then the East London Advertiser.]

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Story Filed Under: News ,Race relations ,Religion

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Reader comments


You might at least give a nod in the direction of The Commentator which picked this story up first.

No doubt Bob Pitt and “loonwatch” / “Islamophobiawatch” will now denounce you for Islamophobia.

The Muslim Patrol could have demonstrated about this instead:

Oxford exploitation trial: Girl ‘told she would be shot’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-21125565

For a group called the Muslim patrol why are they using the American slur ‘fag’?

Well, this is out-and-out unlawful. Have the police responded to these crimes, or launched an investigation?

I hope the so-called “Muslim patrol” enjoy many years at Her Majesty’s Pleasure.

I’m likely moving back to Blighty with my kids & my muslim wife this year. My family is east London (except the wife & kids), so we may go back there. I can easily say, as someone who’s lived in an Islamic country for the last eight years, is married to a muslim woman, has studied the Qu’ran’ & has a degree in religion, these guys are fucking loons who do not represent Islam, or anything more than their own sense of emasculation.

Also, fair warning: anyone who comes near my family for their heritage, from either side, you may regret it.

People have just got to be strong and ignore them. Just carry on as usual because what they really want is the reaction. It gets them going.

StevenM

So, if say some self appointed group of far right British nationalists started patrolling the streets telling people it was a white area and harassing Muslims the best thing to do would be to ignore it ? You don’t think that maybe expecting the police to nick the bastards might be a reasonable response ?

Here’s a response from Shams ad Duha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpDJTBBwrKM

“Here’s a response from Shams ad Duha… ”

And here’s a story about the East London Mosque conducting a “Spot the Fags” training session in 2007, and their other homophobic preachers (including those who demand gay people are executed).

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/06/10/gay-rights-campaigners-call-for-mosques-to-ban-anti-gay-speakers/

Why should we believe that and condemnation of these homophobic vigilantes is anything other than deceitful?

11. Tubby Isaacs

“Why should we believe that and condemnation of these homophobic vigilantes is anything other than deceitful?”

Because they condemned homophobic preachers after that? Because it might not be the same person speaking on behalf of the mosque now? That they’re smart enough to know that these arseholes with the camera aren’t very positive for Islam?

And I know about that Gilligan article before you post it. Sunny replied to that already.

The police know perfectly well this is Choudary’s crew, just as he has been behind numerous open and not so open (but easily traceable) contraventions of the law in the past.

For some unexplained reason they do not act against him. They play dumb, pretend not to see obvious stuff – such as that one lot of Gay Free Zone stickers appeared on Choudary’s website BEFORE they were even appeared on the street, with a helpful notice saying they WOULD be. Choudary could and should have been banged up years ago, at least as early as the Cartoon hate demo he organised in 2006.

So Choudary and co have pretty much a free rein to harass and intimidate minorities and vulnerable individuals like this man, while the Met police do bugger all but count their pensions and lose the respect and trust of the public. Corrupt fools.

13. Tubby Isaacs

That’s a very serious accusation there, both against Choudary and the police.

Why wouldn’t they nick this utter embarrassment to the vast majority of the population?

Maybe it’s a bit more complicated than “everyone knows”, eh?

#6

Guess what, Dave: this story isn’t actually about you or your family, it’s about a gay person and other people being threatened on the streets of London by Anjem Choudary’s yobs.

Your unprovoked ‘warning’ is irrelevant to that, though hopefully it has made you feel more of a hardman.

What’s the difference between these young thugs and the skinheads of yore?

This is just a filmed episode. Anecdotal evidence suggests this kind of thing v gays, women, Jews etc is far from uncommon.

But when once the Anti Nazi League took on the skinheads, their successors now “take on” the EDF alongside the very kind of people in this video.

What a sad, mixed up world – where working class thugs are standing up against the Nazis, and the middle class Lefties choose to line-up behind… the Brown Shirts. Or maybe was always thus.

16. Tubby Isaacs

“What’s the difference between these young thugs and the skinheads of yore?”

That there are about 2 of them (in the Fieldgate Street film anyway, and one is holding a camera? And the people they harrass just think they’re twats rather than scary thugs?

Not to minimise their racist crap- they deserve to be punished.

But they aren’t how most people remember skinheads.

@ Tubby Isaacs,

“That’s a very serious accusation there, both against Choudary and the police.

Why wouldn’t they nick this utter embarrassment to the vast majority of the population?”

You may as well ask why have the police and CPS passed up numerous chances to act against scores of homophobic or antisemitic preachers, even when there is clear video evidence. Abu Usamah is an example – he advocted both the torture and the killing of gay people. The Police and CPS refused to act then, in fact they unsuccessfully tried to lean on the programme makers. Do you deny any of that, Tubby?

The Met also lied about the Gay Freezone posters in London, implying they had been put up as a far-right tactic to bring discredit u[on Muslims, while admitting privately that they knew it was Muslims but asking gay activists to keep this quiet for the sake of ‘community relations’. The police do it because they are cowards, and corrupt, and are more concerned about not ‘provoking’ Muslims than about treating all citizens equally.

To be acting surprised in 2013 about the idea the police failing to do its job properly for political reasons, especially when it comes to Islamists hounding minority groups, suggests you are either a naive, ignorant fool or a troll.

By all means alert the Metropolitan police to the ‘serious accusations’ of mine which have supposedly outraged you, Tubby Isaacs. If they do look at them, they will just cough and slink away because they know perfectly that they are true, and that it’s common knowledge why they are true.

18. Waterloo Sunset

@12 Lamia

For some unexplained reason they do not act against him.

Aye, interesting one that. The last person I can remember that seemed to operate with this kind of impunity was Charlie Sergent of Combat 18. Eventually, he murdered a fellow Nazi and ended up in court. Where it came out he’d been a Special Branch tout for years. I’d speculate this may well be the case with Choudary. It’s a hypothesis, obviously. But Occam’s Razor…

So Choudary and co have pretty much a free rein to harass and intimidate minorities and vulnerable individuals like this man,

It’s noticeable, but unsurprising, that they’ve only targeted vulnerable individuals so far, not anyone that looks like they might fight back. This is enough of an escalation (physical intimidation) that I think physical resistance is more than justified. Unfortunately, the only group that has shown the will to do so with far right Islamists in the past is Antifa, who are currently tiny.

@ Waterloo Sunset,

it sounds barmy but I am beginning to think you may be right about Choudary. Perhaps some people in the police are congratulating themselves that by allowing him to do what he wants they are somehow (don’t ask me how) helping protect ordinary people, non-Muslim and Muslim alike. more likely they are setting up some poor innocent for a horrible fate, for which the police will be morally responsible but never called to account. As so often.

20. AlternNocturn

So they’re basically the London equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church, except they stay in one city and people are actually doing something about them.

“people are actually doing something about them.”

Which people? Certainly not the police. They’ve been treating Choudary and co with kid gloves for years, useless crooks.

Muslims condemn them, but that’s not going to stop the hate. Condemnation never does. Condemnation is just talk, until there is a fatwa, nothing will change.

23. Tubby Isaacs

@Lamia,

Why would I report you to the police? I was just saying it’s better to have evidence of what you say. Choudary’s mates are as capable of reading Sunny’s blog and getting a lawyer as anyone else. Haven’t seen any evidence it’s that utter fuckwit yet. I’d be surprised if there weren’t more than one such fuckwit in Tower Hamlets.

None of what you say is evidence against Choudary or the police. Saying what about Abu Usamah? or what about those stickers? isn’t evidence.

btw, you know that other boroughs are worse for homophobic attacks? How often do you think Islington or Westminster nick anyone for it?

24. Tubby Isaacs

@Lamia

“it sounds barmy but I am beginning to think you may be right about Choudary. Perhaps some people in the police are congratulating themselves that by allowing him to do what he wants they are somehow (don’t ask me how) helping protect ordinary people, non-Muslim and Muslim alike.”

Charlie Sargent, according to World In Action, helped foil a series of letter bombs. Choudary doing that would be surprising.

Isn’t the simpler explanation that he isn’t behind everything you think he is, or that if he is, it’s hard to get proof?

Choudary himself announced the ‘Sharia Controlled Zone’ stickers before they even went up. They were shown on Choudary’s own islam4uk website before they even went up. That is undisputed. The police, of course, failed to join the most obvious dots, and did nothing but hvae them taken down. If you didn’t follow the case, do some googling.

He’s not exactly going out of his way to distance himself from what’s been happening.

https://twitter.com/anjemchoudary/status/292693569016315904

https://twitter.com/anjemchoudary/status/292694621975375872

27. Chaise Guevara

@ Somebody

“I hope the so-called “Muslim patrol” enjoy many years at Her Majesty’s Pleasure.”

“Many years” seems a tad overmuch just for insulting someone in the street.

@19 It’s possible that Choudary’s group is funnelling radical Islamist’s actions and energy into putting up stickers, bothering war widows and being general bellends on street corners, rather than blowing themselves up on buses.

Top response by the Imam, leaves no wiggle room there that these lads are knobbers who are just on the toss. Kids are kids and lads are idiots, doesn’t matter what religion, ethnicity etc. Top man.

#6, or Dave. You would do well to remember that since allah’s apostle has not set up a succession system (for the caliphate), it is considered sunnah to do this. You seem to have vastly different opinions on Islam, than those who spend their careers (scholars) arduously debating it. You seem to have a much more romanticized version. I, too, can claim just as easily that I have a degree in Islamic Studies. However, like you, I am just a random person on the internet.

Lamia: “Choudary himself announced the ‘Sharia Controlled Zone’ stickers before they even went up.”

Designing them isn’t proof he put them up, though.

It is quite possible that he has some minimal level of intelligence and thinks about how to avoid prosecution. Admittedly maybe the police are avoiding prosecuting for some other reason (although I don’t buy for a second that it’s because they’re biased in favour of Muslims as some suggest), but it’s plausible.

But all this is a bit peripheral though; his miniscule group’s infantile antics are only a story because large sections of the press want negative scary stories about Muslims, and want to portray this as a ‘tip of the iceberg’ incident to further their aim of portraying the Muslim community in general as a national security threat. I suspect that if Choudary stopped doing these stunts, some people with an interest in seeing Muslims demonised might well be tempted to offer him incentives to continue.

In reality this is not the tip of any iceberg, and the much more significant mob oppression of this sort affects entire communities – when they are forced to hide indoors or get out of town because the EDL are demonstrating and any Asian seen by them will obviously be a target.

@ Chaise

““Many years” seems a tad overmuch just for insulting someone in the street.”

That man was being intimidated into getting off streets which he has a perfect right to be walking along. That’s more than just being insulted, it’s criminal behaviour. Allowing Choudary and co to continue means a steady drip drip of people stating unpunished that gay people should be killed or driven off our (yes, they are ours too) streets. And as usual the useless police scum are doing their Nelson act.

@ jungle

“The much more significant mob oppression of this sort affects entire communities – when they are forced to hide indoors or get out of town because the EDL are demonstrating and any Asian seen by them will obviously be a target.”

And obviously the gay community, who were targeted by Gay Free Zone posters from Choudary’s mob, whose provenance the police lied about, don’t count. They’re just not ‘significant’ enough. Second class citizens, almost.

““Many years” seems a tad overmuch just for insulting someone in the street.”

Please don’t downplay this. They’ve committed multiple hate crimes against non-Muslims, putting them in fear of violence. I hope the police take it more seriously than you do.

East London Mosque – that well known bastion of moderation and multiculturalism? Are they still holding the ‘Spot the Fag’ seminars?

Local mobs discriminating against people on the street, in the background a local mosque with a long history of unconcealed hate speech – and there is no possible connection? Nothing?

This post is ironic for another reason. Sunny is merely repeating what journalists like Gilligan and Toby Young have been reporting (quite accurately) for a couple of years.

You don’t get brownie points for ‘exposing’ the story after it’s gone mainstream (on youtube). You get credit for reporting it when no-one else wants to, and calls you a liar for doing so. You get credit for reporting the truth it when people call you a ‘fantasist’ and an Islamaphobe. The kind of thing LC said about the likes of Gilligan, who was talking about this when it was highly unfashionable to do so.

Are they campaigning against the sexualisation of British society too? Those veils are great for preventing objectification…

36. the a&e charge nurse

The poor old ‘muslim patrol’ seem to have a soft spot for the gay hanging iranian interpretation of islam?

As far as I know few islamic countries are at the forefront of promoting gay and lesbian rights – so perhaps we shouldn’t be too surprised if one or two fanatics remain at odds with the aspirations of fluffy liberals?

No Go Areas for non-Muslims?? WTF…. well I can say let the dirty Muslim cunts come to Kennington SE11… I will make sure I wear the sluttiest short dress I can get and a bacon buttie…. let them tell me what I can and cant do in my own fucking country…!!

Maybe I can go to my local mosque and empty several packets of bacon across their wudu area… eye for an eye… we aint even got started yet :)

If you muszzies dont like it, then give up your kuffar benefits and council houses and fuck off..

Ana Kennington SE11

The Guardian is reporting that two men, aged 22 and 19, have been arrested over this. The charges are reported as GBH and public order offences.

This is good news for everybody, including all moderate Muslims.

39. Chaise Guevara

@ Lamia

“That man was being intimidated into getting off streets which he has a perfect right to be walking along. That’s more than just being insulted, it’s criminal behaviour. Allowing Choudary and co to continue means a steady drip drip of people stating unpunished that gay people should be killed or driven off our (yes, they are ours too) streets.”

Who said anything about allowing them to continue or letting them go unpunished?

40. Chaise Guevara

@ 33 Somebody

“Please don’t downplay this. They’ve committed multiple hate crimes against non-Muslims, putting them in fear of violence. I hope the police take it more seriously than you do.”

I don’t see what the police have to do with it. They don’t determine prison sentences. Their role is to choose whether or not to arrest, and I support the decision to do so.

I might not have heard everything about this, but what I’ve seen so far has been insults, not threats. I don’t think you should go to jail for “many years” (what does that mean, at least five?) simply for insulting people. Frankly I don’t think you should be jailed at all, it seems more like a community service issue to me. And even if they were threatening people, many years sounds a bit strong.

I’m not in favour of draconian criminal justice. I’m not going to ignore that fact simply because homophobia pisses me off so much.

Lamia: “And obviously the gay community, who were targeted by Gay Free Zone posters from Choudary’s mob, whose provenance the police lied about, don’t count. They’re just not ‘significant’ enough. Second class citizens, almost.”

I’m quite obviously not saying the gay community are “not significant”, and I find your attempt to paint me as a homophobe both offensive and silly.

The gay community is absolutely “significant”, but faces much more “significant” threats than this group of less than a dozen people with no support – many of those threats no doubt coming from the far right, including EDL supporters.

To be absolutely clear, I believe it would be a good thing if this group were prosecuted for this type of public intimidation (I said that already) – but the point I am making is that I reject the idea that this means there is a serious Muslim campaign to create “Sharia zones”: it is obviously restricted to this tiny group of idiots, well-known for a variety of publicity-seeking incidents throughout the UK, who are probably doing it because either they like fighting or they get paid to do so. You’re trying to make this into a general point about the East London Mosque and imply it’s the tip of an iceberg of a wider campaign in the Muslim community to drive the gay community out of Britain, when it simply is not. Almost every Muslim group of any significance in the UK is condemning it.

Actually, I share the suspicion of “Tory” about the “coincidence” that this took place outside the East London Mosque – but I’m more suspicious of how convenient this is for people campaigning against the East London Mosque. Choudary’s group really aren’t local, having popped up all over the UK in places convenient for the press. Why here? And why did right wing bloggers – specifically those with a history of campaigning to shut down the East London Mosque – know about this before anyone else?

42. Shatterface

Actually, I share the suspicion of “Tory” about the “coincidence” that this took place outside the East London Mosque – but I’m more suspicious of how convenient this is for people campaigning against the East London Mosque. Choudary’s group really aren’t local, having popped up all over the UK in places convenient for the press. Why here? And why did right wing bloggers – specifically those with a history of campaigning to shut down the East London Mosque – know about this before anyone else?

It’s convenient for apologists that it looks suspicious.

And is rather suspicious that this is so convenient for apologists – so much so that it looks like other forces might be manipulating the apologists by making them believe that some group, behind the scenes, is itself being manipulated by a hidden hand.

Mind you, the fact that I am able to voice this suspicion suggests that the hidden hand itself may be a front for the spider at the heart of this tangled web – but who’s pulling his strings?

Or it could just be people who believe god hates homosexuals behaving in a manner consistent with their beliefs.

“I might not have heard everything about this, but what I’ve seen so far has been insults, not threats. I don’t think you should go to jail for “many years” (what does that mean, at least five?) simply for insulting people. Frankly I don’t think you should be jailed at all, it seems more like a community service issue to me. And even if they were threatening people, many years sounds a bit strong.”

But they’ve not been “simply…insulting people”, and by describing it in that way you’re downplaying both the intent of the perpetrator and the experience of the individual. They were implicitly threatening violence against individuals on the grounds that they’re not Muslim or following Islamic rules. Given that they’ve done this multiple times (we see maybe half a dozen or more in the films they put up), I could well see that several years in prison is a fitting penalty. Further, GBH—for which they were arrested—can lead to 5 years’ imprisonment or more.

44. the a&e charge nurse

[41] ‘the point I am making is that I reject the idea that this means there is a serious Muslim campaign to create “Sharia zones”: it is obviously restricted to this tiny group of idiots’ – absolutely, but …..

“it is obviously restricted to this tiny group of idiots, well-known for a variety of publicity-seeking incidents throughout the UK, who are probably doing it because either they like fighting or they get paid to do so” – well, OK it may be a tiny group of publicity seekers, but its not just because they like fighting, or they would be fighting with everybody rather than targeting specific groups, and if their reasons for doing so are primarily financial, rather than being a further example of religiously inspired intolerance, who is paying them?

i am sure if these lads really believed in the true concept of sharia law,they would head off to egypt which is in fact becoming a strict islamic state with the sharia,also the muslim brotherhood are in power,no excuse now for any haters of the uk to live in a country they hate.

Muslim fanatics taking control of streets, boroughs, schools, etc. A growing trend not only in the UK but all across Western Europe. But bizarrely, “liberals” and “progressives” stick to inexplicable islamophilia instead of promoting secularism.

If the police wanted to stop this, all they have to do is walk about in pairs as a mixed couple in plain clothes past the mosque..and as the Muslim approaches them to not walk near the mosque or for the female to cover up herself they can identify themselves as Police Officers and arrest it. Its as simple as that, so why is there a big thing being made about “investigating” the issues etc??

48. Tubby Isaacs

@Mike Guillaume,

Tell me all these major figures on the left you have in mind.

Secularism is the separation of church and state. Nothing to do with what these clowns are doing.

This is a couple of fools with a camera. Taking control of the streets? Drivel. Worthy of punishment, of course.

49. Tubby Isaacs

Any links to Choudary uncovered yet?

As I said, I reckon there’s more than one “Islamist” in Tower Hamlets.

50. Truth's spokesperson 551000000

Sunny Hundal had no choice but to cover this story, but like all Lefty apologist for Islamic fascism he has to downplay it with MADE UP crap in ().
Like;

(likely very small) / (very likely the same)

I guess it was two guys who circumcised 100,000 UK women and girls.

One gang who spent decades gang raping hundreds of non-Muslim/white girls.

Two people using optical FX who filled London streets with “Behead those who insult Islam” signs.

One man and one woman who birthed hundreds of mentally/physically handicapped children from 1st cousin inbreeding.

One man using clever disguises and his immortality power who did 7/7, Glasgow, airline plots, other bomb plots.

Yeah…..no problems here. ALL that and MUCH more has all done by 12 people. Sunny says so. So heads back in the sand infidels, nothing to worry about here.

Oh, great, a gang of bullying thugs. That is exactly the extent of attention they deserve, no more (e.g. making them into a national phenomenon) and no less (e.g. failing to report them to the police for what they are). They want to be big, but outside a situation they can control with threats of violence, they really, really aren’t.

52. Tubby Isaacs

@50

Funny that he didn’t mention all those things in the story, isn’t it?

You’d think he were just writing about these patrols or something. Maybe they’d like to be considered like suicide bombers. But they aren’t, except to you.

I think this stunt may have been staged to cause maximum anti-Muslim backlash by allowing the harrassment to be filmed so that it can becomes viral. Supporters of Shariah in this country (likely Anjem Chaudary’s group) are usually of the extremist mindset. They speak of enforcing the shariah in a ‘Muslim zone’, yet they allow themselves to be filmed and film their harrassment which is considered haram (forbidden) by their Salafi/Wahaabi interpretation of Islam. Interestingly, we cannot see these ‘provocateurs’ physical features clearly.

Now, let’s see if these vigilantes would operate in an ACTUAL Muslim area. It becomes incumbent on them to forbid evil and enjoin good on Muslims first rather than non-Muslims. Mr Iqbal’s supermarket and the Bengali restaurant that serves alcohol in your area would be a good start.

It seems the whole incident was designed to rile the general public to demonize Islam further, by challenging social and cultural customs/values that they hold dear to.

A couple of years ago, I came across a forum post by an EDL member, who stated that shops in Alum Rock, a predominently Asian area of Birmingham had signs that stated ‘No whites and Non-Muslims allowed’, of course this was an outright lie, as he was challenged to provide photographic or any other pertinent evidence to back his claims.

The EDL do have non-Muslims Asians, who can quote a few words In Arabic and speak in Islamic terminology.

BTW, Anjem Chaudary was a heavy drinker himself. Google his images, might still be there. He enjoys cordial relations with both the police and the media.

@Tubby Isaacs: Are you blind or don’t you travel? Brussels is becoming a muslim city (25% of Muslims, more than 50% in one-third of the municipalities) where entire streets are now “controlled” by Arabs and Turks who have turned them into lawless areas.
Hundreds of French suburbs have been named ZUS(for
zones urbaines sensibles) mainly due to the large density of muslims acting like mobsters day and night.
And then Rotterdam, parts of Denmark, Sweden, Spain, etc. In many of those areas, civic rules have changed or are abandoned. Locals flee because they don’t behave in accordance with Muslim habits. Girls are insulted, etc.
It is about secularism as they want to substitute religion for law and regulations.

55. Chaise Guevara

@ 43 Somebody

“But they’ve not been “simply…insulting people”, and by describing it in that way you’re downplaying both the intent of the perpetrator and the experience of the individual. They were implicitly threatening violence against individuals on the grounds that they’re not Muslim or following Islamic rules.”

Not downplaying, just wasn’t aware. If this is true then I agree jail may well be appropriate.

“Given that they’ve done this multiple times (we see maybe half a dozen or more in the films they put up), I could well see that several years in prison is a fitting penalty.”

IANAL, but my understanding of this sort of thing is that you generally centre the sentence around one incident, then add a relatively small amount extra for each other occurrence. But you certainly have a point.

“Further, GBH—for which they were arrested—can lead to 5 years’ imprisonment or more”

Nobody’s arguing that GBH shouldn’t carry heavy sentences.

Sunny:

“East London Mosque released a statement last week condemning the men…”

Unfortunately, Islam allows believers to lie with impunity to infidels….So this might be sincere; or it might not.

And, as I’ve said before, when it comes to gays and women, ‘moderate’ practising muslims are very, very rare beasts indeed…

Which raises issues from which the left turns away…

UPDATE: Thanks to @bashaa, a local imam from East London Mosque gave a sermon specifically criticising and addressing these incidents.

Good PR stunt.

A video is promptly released speaking about the intimidation campaign. Imagine that.

No videos released of clerics calling for the killing of homosexuals, however. We had to learn about that unofficially when some non-Muslims brought cameras to Friday sermons.

Tone

“Unfortunately, Islam allows believers to lie with impunity to infidels….”

And where is your authentic source for that from the Quran and hadiths? I assume you can read Arabic and not copy and paste from a dubious source.

Justfor bob

No videos released of clerics calling for the killing of homosexuals, however. We had to learn about that unofficially when some non-Muslims brought cameras to Friday sermons.

So one or two videos (one which was stitched together by channel 4) were released and these become the videos that represents the hate speech of thousands of clerics in this country? The clerics in these videos belong to the Wahaabi school of thought and the vast majority of clerics in this country do not belong to their cult. If that was the case, then out of the millions of adherents to the Muslim faith in this country, why is it that you don’t see any mass killings of homosexuals carried out by the orders of these clerics? Yes, Islam is clear about homosexuality, but ordering the Muslims to seek gays out and kill them wherever you find them is misinformation.

I know a couple of Muslim gays (they’re married now). They attend the mosque on Fridays and the Imams do know of them and treat them as human beings.

59. Chaise Guevara

@ 56 TONE

“Unfortunately, Islam allows believers to lie with impunity to infidels….So this might be sincere; or it might not”

Unlike the rest of us Vulcans, you mean?

60. Tubby Isaacs

“@Tubby Isaacs: Are you blind or don’t you travel?”

Don’t have to travel, thanks. Have lived in East London for 11 years, and used to walk past where these sodding clowns were operating to work every day.

Believe it or not, I get drunk and flirt with girls in short skirts, just like in my hometown. Minus a lot of lary boozy thugs.

If that was the case, then out of the millions of adherents to the Muslim faith in this country, why is it that you don’t see any mass killings of homosexuals carried out by the orders of these clerics?

I actually said British Mosques have been found teaching extremism which includes clerics who teach that in an Islamic state, homosexuals should be killed or punished in some other way.

We found out about this when non-Muslims went undercover in Britain’s mosques. No Muslims told us about these incendiary sermons their religious leaders had been delivering for years.

Now, we have a nice PR stunt of a Muslim cleric issuing some comments against this criminal gang the cleric or some other Deobandi nutjob (more than half of Britain’s mosques and masjids are run by them) more likely incited in the first place.

So no Muslims were willing to come forward – after years of vile hatred being spewed from the ‘pulpit’ – to reveal what’s being said about homosexuals and others in many of Britain’s mosques that we now know about but suddenly Muslims make sure to release this video. Where were the videos from Muslim whistleblowers before?

PR stunt indeed.

Justforbob

“I actually said British Mosques have been found teaching extremism …”

Factually incorrect, since two mosques were filmed ONLY, undercover. Hardly a broad spectrum test.

“which includes clerics who teach that in an Islamic state, homosexuals should be killed or punished in some other way …”

I see a contradiction and paradox here. The vigilantes harrassed an alleged gay person (could have been a transgender, which is recognised and tolerated in Islam) in a country that is a not an Islamic state. It is an Islamic government in a Muslim majority country that implements shariah. I have never heard of death squads or vigilantes hunting down people in Islamic countries because they look gay.

Homosexuality exists in Islamic countries much more than you think, even in countries where the strictest form of Shariah is implemented like Saudi Arabia. Read O’Keefe the famous footballer of the 70’s and the gay Saudi prince.

Sharia law is intended to be only applicable to Muslims. Non-Muslims are supposed to be exempt from the provisions of the law.

“More than half of Britain’s mosques and masjids are run by them” (Deobandis).

Can you provide evidence to support your claim that more than half of Britain’s mosques are run by Deobandis considering there are Barelvis, subsects of Sufis, Naqshbandia, Chistya, Qadriya, Shias, Subsects of Shias etc?

Factually incorrect, since two mosques were filmed ONLY, undercover. Hardly a broad spectrum test.

This would be factually incorrect if the only evidence/examples of extremism in British mosques came from the two undercover videos taken.

I have never heard of death squads or vigilantes hunting down people in Islamic countries because they look gay.

I suppose applying a bit of common sense here would be a lot to ask for.

How many ‘openly gay’ members in a Muslim society casually walk around these Muslim majority nations in the type of dress as the ‘homosexual’ man in the video?

You could also have bothered to research your question first and you would know that supposedly homosexual men were kidnapped in Libya a few months ago because they were accused of being homosexuals.

Sharia law is intended to be only applicable to Muslims. Non-Muslims are supposed to be exempt from the provisions of the law.

Strange, because in reality, Christians and other non-Muslims are not allowed in several Muslim majority nations to openly eat or drink during Muslim fasting days.

Can you provide evidence to support your claim that more than half of Britain’s mosques are run by Deobandis considering there are Barelvis, subsects of Sufis, Naqshbandia, Chistya, Qadriya, Shias, Subsects of Shias etc?

Here are quotes from the Daily Mail (that can be found on other news sites) citing a police report and members of ‘the Muslim Parliament':

Radical Islamic sect ‘has half of Britain’s mosques in its grip’

A hardline Islamic movement, whose leading UK imam preaches anti-Semitism and calls on Muslims to “shed blood for Allah”, is controlling almost half of Britain’s mosques, a police report has found.

The influence of the ultra-conservative Deobandi sect, which is characterised by its total rejection of western values, has grown to such an extent that police now believe it runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques.

The Deobandi- controlled mosques are predominantly found in the Midlands and the North – such as the Tablighi Jamaat mosque which 7/7 bombers Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer were known to attend.

But about 170 London mosques are classified as Deobandi-run compared with less than 100 run by the moderate Sufi-based Barelwi movement.

Seventeen of Britain’s 26 Islamic seminaries are also run by Deobandis, producing 80 per cent of clerics trained here.

The most vocal preacher in Britain, Sheikh Riyadh ul Haq, supports armed jihad and is openly contemptuous of Christians, Jews and Hindus.

Mr ul Haq, 36, who runs an Islamic academy in Leicester, gained notoriety with a series of outspoken lectures after 9/11 when he was Imam of Birmingham Central Mosque. He has since travelled the world preaching that America and its allies are seeking to wipe out Islam.

Tapes of his sermons reveal an open hatred of Western culture, an admiration for the Taliban and a passion for martyrdom – although he does say in one lecture that “British Muslims should not rise here”.

A favourite talk of his, however, warns Muslims of the perils of befriending the “kuffar”, or non-believer. He says: “The Koran teaches Muslims not to follow in the footsteps of the Jews and the Christians, yet of our own choice we decide to live, act, work, behave, enjoy and play just like the kuffar”.

“Do not befriend the kuffarî was Allah’s warning to Muslims, and Muhammad told his companions “to distance themselves and fear this alignment with the kuffar in every way, even to the manner of dressing”…

Ghayasuddin Siddiqui of the Muslim Parliament said: “There is no doubt the Deobandi movement became more influential in Britain’s mosques in the Nineties and this went largely unchecked. The situation now is of great concern as almost all Islamic extremism originates from the Deobandi thinking”….

Jusforbob

“How many ‘openly gay’ members in a Muslim society casually walk around these Muslim majority nations in the type of dress as the ‘homosexual’ man in the video?”

How do you know he was gay? Because his attire looked like as if he was gay? For all we know he could have been a transgender or just effiminate looking, something that is prevalent in many Muslim countries.

“supposedly homosexual men were kidnapped in Libya a few months ago because they were accused of being homosexuals…”

Any other countries to the list or just Libya? Did they act on the orders of a firebrand cleric or because their culture fosters an extreme disdain for homosexuality?

Which part of Shariah law does it ban/prohibits non-Muslims from eating or drinking openly during Ramadhan? Is there a punishment prescribed by Shariah for non-Muslims who break this prohibition? Where is the hadith or Quranic injunction for this?

There are large Christian minorities in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey etc.., where they can eat without being punished, but many refrain from doing so out of courtesy for the Muslims. Just like me visiting India and not eating beef in front of a Hindu out of respect for his beliefs. Restaurants and cafes are open to the public, albeit very quiet during Ramadhan. Nobody is preventing non-Muslims from hogging and drinking, they are just advised not make a gaudy public display of it.

“..police now believe it runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques…”

So, the police ‘believes’, how did they deduce that there are more than 600? Salaam website’s has recorded close to 1,500, however, the figure might be much higher. A record of the mosques in my area ommitted at least 4 on their database, all barelvi.

Riyadh Al Haq also gained notoriety for a power struggle and infighting in Birmingham Central Mosque, which led to shooting of two Muslims (one died). A few of his followers have criminal backgrounds.

Just a footnote to my last comment. I checked the Muslim Directory and they too have ommitted established mosques from the Barelvi/sufi branch.

Also, even in the case where half of mosques in this country belong to a particular school of thought, does not necessarily imply that most of Muslims in this country are adherents to that brand of Islam. This is flawed interpretation.

Ratio-wise there might be more Deobandi mosques. But Barelvi mosques tend to be much larger in capacity to accomodate it’s followers.

In Birmingham, the largest Barelivi mosque has a capacity of more than 6,000 worshippers. The largest deobandi mosque has a capacity of about 4500 worshippers. The smaller Deobandi mosques can accomodate 100+, the smaller Barelvi/Sufi mosques can accomodate 500+

The largest minority Muslim group in this country are of Kashmiri origin and traditionally they tend to belong to the Barelevi school of thought.

66. Tubby Isaacs

By the way, Mike Guillaume, weren’t you going to get back to me with all these major figures on the left who’d sucked up to extreme Islam instead of being secular?

How do you know he was gay?

I didn’t say he was gay; the vigilantes in the video did.

Because his attire looked like as if he was gay?

Watch the video to find out. I didn’t film the video or participate in the confrontation. Why would you ask me why the Muslim vigilantes thought that person was gay? Watch the video for yourself to try to determine why they harassed the man for allegedly being gay. I wouldn’t have more insight from watching the same film than you would.

For all we know he could have been a transgender or just effiminate looking, something that is prevalent in many Muslim countries.

Trangenders are common in many Muslim countries? Really? Which ones? What I found from a quick Google search was that transgender movement is underground. Surprise, surprise. Beyond that, Iran pays for transgender operations but that hardly means transgenders are widely accepted in either Iran or ‘many other Muslim countries’.

Can males go around wearing makeup in many Muslim countries? What do you think? Care to support your argument?

Any other countries to the list or just Libya? Did they act on the orders of a firebrand cleric or because their culture fosters an extreme disdain for homosexuality?

Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Gaza and Indonesia for starters. All these countries have morality police that are either tacitly approved by the state or vigilantes.

Which part of Shariah law does it ban/prohibits non-Muslims from eating or drinking openly during Ramadhan?

Why don’t you ask Muslims from these countries that arrest Christians for drinking water during Ramadan?

Sharia has one set of law for homosexuality regardless of which religion you are. In fact, I believe Iran’s sharia based laws on homosexuality are stricter on non-Muslims than Muslims.

But then again, anyone familiar with marriage, criminal and inheritance laws in Islam knows your claim that sharia does not affect non-Muslims to be a joke.

There are large Christian minorities in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey etc.., where they can eat without being punished, but many refrain from doing so out of courtesy for the Muslims.

There actually isn’t a large number of Christian minorities in Turkey; they number less than 0.2% of the total population totaling around 120,000. But mentioning Turkey and Syria is simply a red herring as both are nominally secular states.

68. Truth's Spokesman 345551000000

Chameleon is an Islamic shill.
An apologist for fanatic, religious, fascism. Don’t bother even talking to this utter disgrace.

Sadly (unless he’s an undercover Islamist) when his blessed Islamist partners (Commies sided with The Nazis…they’ll join anyone) take control they’ll just as happily get rid of him too.

Trangenders are common in many Muslim countries? Really? Which ones?

Try Pakistan for a start. They are very common and are known as ‘Hijra’s. They are quite popular for providing entertainment at weddings or knocking on people’s doors to ask for money, when the birth of new born is announced. Youtube ‘Hijra’s’. Begum Nawazish Ali (Transgender) is a very popular prime time chat host in Pakistan.

Is wearing makeup characteristic of gays? There are countless openly gay people including, celebrities, actors, ‘openly gay’, however, do we see them wearing makeup?

I asked you which part of Shariah law does it ban/prohibits non-Muslims from eating or drinking openly during Ramadhan? You did not provide me the authentic reference from Quran or hadith.

Why don’t you ask Muslims from these countries that arrest Christians for drinking water during Ramadan?

So, are they arresting Christians because of breaking a statutory law or because of likely to cause offense to Muslims or because Shariah law dictates it?

In this country if a couple openly has sex in full public view (unless they are dogging) and they get arrested, why do you think if they get charged or fined the state defines the act as a common law offence of “outraging public decency”.

Chameleon is an Islamic shill…
I am actually a sufi from the Midlands. I own a software technology company and my clients come from various ethnicities, races, religious, non-religious persuasions, from around the world, bar NONE. Many of my clients are Jewish. Projects in the past have included a rainbow poject (Gay) and religious based Christian sites.

If the moderator wish to confirm this, I can oblige.

Try Pakistan for a start. They are very common and are known as ‘Hijra’s. They are quite popular for providing entertainment at weddings or knocking on people’s doors to ask for money, when the birth of new born is announced.

I googled ‘hijra+Pakistan’ and found an article saying they were recently given the same rights as other Pakistanis (2010) and the community has long been harassed and discriminated.

Is wearing makeup characteristic of gays? There are countless openly gay people including, celebrities, actors, ‘openly gay’, however, do we see them wearing makeup?

It’s obviously a stereotype that men who wear makeup are gay. I didn’t think this needed to be explained.

I asked you which part of Shariah law does it ban/prohibits non-Muslims from eating or drinking openly during Ramadhan?

I’m not a Muslim who arrests Christians during Ramadan for eating/drinking during Ramadan. Go ask those Muslims why they arrest Christians.

In this country if a couple openly has sex in full public view (unless they are dogging) and they get arrested, why do you think if they get charged or fined the state defines the act as a common law offence of “outraging public decency”.

The comparison is absurd. There aren’t laws in majority Catholic countries where Catholics or non-Catholics are arrested for not observing Catholic fasts.

Did the article state whether the discrimination was cultural based or religious based?

Yes, they are harrassed and discriminated and in many instances by people wanting sexual favours for free, by the local thug or police wanting a cut of their activities. The harrassment is usually frivolous taunting and violence against them is rare (not that it does not happen). They openly display themselves as they are, without fear of any repurcussions. They are accepted but marginalised by society.

I attended a friend’s wedding once and he invited a group of performing hijra’s. They made the equivalent of £600 for a couple of hours of dancing. They are religious and quite charitable, frequenting sufi mausoleums.

The anology made was based on other countries with their own laws that define ‘public decency’, which in general is not confined to mere ‘fasting’ alone.

72. Just Visiting

Now we know how it feels to live in Afghanistan, after all that.

Or how it feels to live in either of the fake states that we have created in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Or how it feels to live in Iraq or Libya, now that we have improved them both.

Onwards into Syria.

Are you saying that non-Muslim minorities are well treated in Muslim countries? Have you googled recently?

The reality is Arab Christian citizens have more social and religious freedoms and rights in Israel than they would in Iran.

I’m waiting for the day we’ll have an apartheid awareness week for ethnic and religious minorities throughout the Middle East.

75. Infidel Truth Teller

A teenager who stabbed and slashed a passer-by in a racially motivated attack has been locked up for five years.

Amir Rehman, 18, shouted racial abuse as 51-year-old Ronald O’Connor
Rehman shouted out: “Manningham belongs to Muslims. We don’t want whites. We rule Bradford. We are going to get you out.”

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/4555469.Teenager_
gets_five_years_for_race_stabbing/

76. Infidel Truth Teller
77. Infidel Truth Teller

A teenager who stabbed and slashed a passer-by in a racially motivated attack has been locked up for five years.

Amir Rehman, 18, shouted racial abuse as 51-year-old Ronald O’Connor
Rehman shouted out: “Manningham belongs to Muslims. We don’t want whites. We rule Bradford. We are going to get you out.”

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/4555469.Teenager_gets_five_years_for_race_stabbing/

Just visiting
The non-Muslim minorities face an uncertain ‘persecution’ in the Muslim World, not by Islamic teachings or by mainstream Muslims there, but at the hands of the growing extremist movement in the Islamic world, especially by Salafis who believe in ‘literalism’.

‘Brigade of Muslims’ – who knows who they really are and who backs this shady extremist group. Their statements and modus operandi seems to suggest they want to sow seeds of discord between Coptics and Muslims. The Copts in Egypt are a little more intelligent than what you might care to think. They are very organised and unified religious minority and they can see through any attempts of divisions. I have a Coptic friend in Alexendria, a very successful entrepreneur, also in the field of IT.

Justforbob
Google ‘religious persecution of Christians in Israel’ and ‘attacks on Christian places of worship in Israel’. It’s difficult to effectively make a comparison with Iran, since much of the news related to persecution and harrassment in Israel is under-reported and spun with half-truths by the Hasbara’s very effective PR media campaigns.

Google ‘religious persecution of Christians in Israel’ and ‘attacks on Christian places of worship in Israel’. It’s difficult to effectively make a comparison with Iran, since much of the news related to persecution and harrassment in Israel is under-reported and spun with half-truths by the Hasbara’s very effective PR media campaigns.

Laws concerning Christians in the two counties are not difficult to find.

Christians can run for political office, marry Jewish women and have full inheritance rights in Israel. Christians aren’t also thrown in prison for converting Jews or converting from Judaism to Christianity.

Also, what do you mean by under-reporting? I more frequently read stories about Israel than I do Iran though the stories coming out of Iran are orders of magnitude worse than what happens in Israel. Am I to believe Israeli Arab Christians are imprisoned for opening churches or converting Jews like in Iran that the media duly covers up?

The non-Muslim minorities face an uncertain ‘persecution’ in the Muslim World, not by Islamic teachings or by mainstream Muslims

Eh? Blasphemy, apostasy, qisas and inheritance laws (just to name some discriminatory legislation) all derive from medieval Muslim law. ‘Salafis’ aren’t in control in the Maldives, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan or Algeria nor are unruly mobs in Pakistan and Indonesia all ‘Salafi’.

Chameleon: “Factually incorrect, since two mosques were filmed ONLY, undercover. Hardly a broad spectrum test.”

The first Undercover Mosque alone was filmed in 6 or 7 mosques and muslim centres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque

For the trouble of making an accurate documentary, Channel 4 was subjected to criminal prosecution, a prosecution which was malicious and which failed. No doubt if the police were seen to be aiding catholic churches with such a prosecution the left would have been outraged.

The second Undercover Mosque was filmed mostly in Regent’s Park Mosque, showing once again murderous homophobia being preached, and showing the kind of extremist literature to be found in the mosque bookshop. Significantly, the police did not try to criminalise this production.

A 2007 study of 100 mosque bookshops found that 1 in 4 of them contained literature calling for the killing of gay people and for muslims to live in segregated areas. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/10/30/study-claims-homophobic-literature-is-available-at-uk-mosques/

Jungle “The gay community is absolutely “significant”, but faces much more “significant” threats than this group of less than a dozen people with no support – many of those threats no doubt coming from the far right, including EDL supporters.”

Would that be the same EDL that has had a gay section for the past 3 years. Plenty of photos of them at EDL demos. Considering all the professional cameramen, police cameramen and communist snoopers who swarm round such demos, I think some photographic/video evidence would surely have appeared by now if EDL were a threat to gay people.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.133232713361173.19576.132236756794102&type=3

Just as Sunny Hundal had to admit he got no racist abuse or hostility at the EDL demo he attended, so there’s no sign of homophobic abuse or violence at EDL demos.

In the same three years that EDL has had a gay section, Tower Hamlets has been proclaimed a Gay Free Zone, one of the last 4 gay bars in that borough has closed down, Hizb ut Tahrir (a party which says to kill homosexuals) has had 2 conferences in that borough, and now there’s been the GBH and homophobic hate crimes of these muslim vigilantes. Muslims in Derby and Nottingham protested against Gay Pride events in those cities, and 3 muslim men from Derby were sent to prison for handing out leaflets telling people to kill homosexuals.

Where is the evidence that EDL poses more of a threat to gay people?

Chameleon: ” I have never heard of death squads or vigilantes hunting down people in Islamic countries because they look gay.”

That’s because the liberal-left like to ignore such unpleasantness, as it disturbs their soothing fantasy of what life under islam is like. For one who has portrayed himself as informed about matters relating to islam, your ignorance on this matter is rather telling.

Here’s a selection of accounts of such death squads working in Iraq since it was “liberated” in 2006.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/09/reports-of-emo-youth-and-lgbt-people-being-massacred-in-iraq/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/06/05/lgbt-group-claims-iraq-is-waging-a-campaign-of-violence-and-murder-against-gays/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/12/baghdad-us-embassy-backs-emo-and-lgbt-murder-vigil/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/aroundtheworld/2008/09/iraq-gay-leader-murdered/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/04/03/gays-continue-to-be-targeted-amid-iraq-carnage/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/06/18/exclusive-british-foreign-office-reacts-to-gay-iraqi-killings/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2006/08/07/gays-and-lesbians-targeted-in-iraq/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/02/26/comment-iraqs-gays-go-underground-to-survive/

Reports were still coming in that it was going on last year. I guess those gay fools thought that liberation and equality should apply to us too.

The left have always found it very easy to ignore many genocidal campaigns run by those they supported. Same thing with islam and the left. That the Left are able to ignore these things is proof they have no real interest in the lives or wellbeing of gay people. We are just a rung in the ladder of your ascendancy to increased power. The hypocrisy and treachery of the Left will be held against them.

And just in case you try the excuse that these are only of interest to those of us in the gay ghetto, the stories have been reported by the BBC multiple times too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8204000/8204825.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8204853.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00xs1qb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ipm/2008/11/gay_life_gay_death_in_iraq_1.shtml

But, hey, there’s nothing to worry about. 20 years of muslims driving gay people out of Tower Hamlets, and 20 years of the gay media and the so-called “anti-fascists” ignoring it and denying it. How can that possibly end badly?

I expect this won’t be published on LibCon, just as my other posts have been deleted. And then the Left complain they’ve never heard of these things.

Chameleon: “Now, let’s see if these vigilantes would operate in an ACTUAL Muslim area. It becomes incumbent on them to forbid evil and enjoin good on Muslims first rather than non-Muslims. Mr Iqbal’s supermarket and the Bengali restaurant that serves alcohol in your area would be a good start.”

I went into a muslim supermarket in my area to buy some cider yesterday. They don’t sell alcohol any more.

Most muslim restaurants don’t serve alcohol. http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2012/jul/27/london-top-five-curry-houses

I notice that my last 3 posts have now been deleted. Clearly the proof & URLs the contain was too disturbing. I expect this refutation will be deleted too.

85. Truth Spokesmaninfidel

Cultural and ethnic cleansing by fraud, scheming, threats and very real violence…..but no one cares. Until its too late…..http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9858079/Londons-East-End-a-melting-pot-simmers-closer-to-the-boil.html


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