Indeed. But the problem isn’t so much that having degrees won’t necessarily win people jobs – though qualifications might be unfairly overlooked in individual cases – but that the importance of degrees is overemphasised to students in the first stages of their education. Employers and educators have to adopt a more discriminating attitude towards their value, so that people who have little academic enthusiasm but sign up because they think its their route into a career are allowed to pursue options that might be more helpful and cheaper.

(Not saying this applies to the author, by the way.)

All in all, university is probably not worth it: http://andreasmoser.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/is-university-worth-it/ Not to say that education isn’t, but using the same time and money outside of university, you’d get 10 times as much education (and could travel the world in the process).

” So now, when people tell me to just get on and get a job in retail, I simply can’t.”

You’re gonna draw fire for that one. But you’re right, it does seem like a ripoff to spend years studying and building up debt only to be told to go get a job you could have got at 16.

In the sort-term, though, bite the bullet and just get something that pays – which, in fairness, you seem to be doing.

Read Das Kapital, understand that it is not a personal failing, but a failing of the business cycle, and thus inevitable under Capitalism.

Join or form a political organization. Help bring about the revolution.

Or wait out the crisis for another 4-5 years then get back on the ladder, get used to being poorer than your parents for the rest of your life.

What was your degree in?

If you’re going for a job as a nanny, knowledge of nursery rhymes is important.

How many do you know?

@ 6 pagar

“If you’re going for a job as a nanny, knowledge of nursery rhymes is important.

How many do you know?”

I really think that a repertoire of nursery rhymes big enough to impress a small child can be learned in a couple of days before you start the job, don’t you?

One small correction: I think you mean you were under no illusions that it would be easy, not under no illusions that it would be difficult–right?

Anyway, it may be of small comfort to you, but the situation you face is not all that different from the one I faced when I finished my first master’s degree or when my younger sister finished her bachelor’s…we came out of school thinking we had an edge over people with only high-school educations, and that we would go right into work requiring persons of our educational level, only to learn that we were considered too inexperienced and “wet behind the ears” to hire…and we, too, could not afford to have gained any through unpaid internships either.

My first job out of grad school was as a customer service caller for a newspaper. My sister’s first job with a bchelor’s was working at the Clinique counter in a department store. Slowly, gradually, we found small opportunities in something like what we’d been educated for and moved on to them. And things went from there.

The economy then was not as bad as it is now (although it was no great shakes then either), but it may well be that you will find the same way out. Still, the mere fact that this problem is an old one does not make it okay. It’s still regrettable that this is what happens to the freshly minted graduate, and it will be an even bigger crock if it turns out that you are not as fortunate as we were.

I use the term “fortunate” in a relative sense, however. I am now 50 years old and back in school working on a master’s in an entirely new field, because I don’t believe that at my age, I will ever get a job paying a living wage in my old field again. I also felt it was time for a change.

So, you see, even those of us who are older who finally managed to work our way into the fields we went to school for didn’t find happy endings there. I can honestly say that one of my motivations for the change was being tired of inevitably having to look for a new job every 5 or 6 years as the result of the impact of budget cuts on my employer…*wherever* I worked.

Oh dear. I fear I have depressed you. Here you were, probably envying all those older folks who had such easy lives because they managed to settle comfortably into careers before you had your chance, and now I’m telling you that, well, there IS no end to this “Nobody wants to hire me” stuff. You have to deal with it when you’re young and fresh. You have to deal with it when you’re old and know stuff, but people don’t want to have to pay you what you deserve for what you know and assume you’re too old to learn anything new to keep up with change.

But that’s the sad truth…unless you win the lottery, inherit a windfall or were just plain born rich and well-connected, you have to play this game all your life.

@ Chaise

I really think that a repertoire of nursery rhymes big enough to impress a small child can be learned in a couple of days before you start the job, don’t you?

The point I was trying to make is that, from an employers point of view, they are interested in the value that you can add to their enterprise. A degree is a snapshot of ability in whatever subject you have studied but is no guarantee that you can add the value the employer wants.

I do agree with the OP that it it is disingenuous of educational providers to exaggerate the benefits of their qualification but all young people need to understand they will be swimming with sharks for most of their working lives.

Unless they get a job in the public sector, of course, where there are not the same fiscal constraints.

@ Pagar

Sure; it’s a bit unfair of the article to insinuate that there’s something wrong with the prospective employer for asking employment-relevant questions.

TBH there’s a whiff of entitlement about the OP, but I guess the issue is that maybe you should feel entitled if you’ve put thousands of pounds and 3+ years of your life into getting a higher education.

My current job isn’t incredibly well-paid, but it’s skilled and reasonably interesting. I think I’m fairly lucky. Whereas if I’d ended up stuck in the call-centre job I did straight after uni I would have felt pretty hard done-by. But I was fortunate to be in the jobs market before the full damage to the economy was apparent.

“But that’s the sad truth…unless you win the lottery, inherit a windfall or were just plain born rich and well-connected,or learn the rules of money and how to make money you have to play this game all your life.”

Try this from the Guardian on 2 July:

What does the future hold for today’s graduates? The key data
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/datablog/2012/jul/02/graduates-future-prospects-debt-unemployment

So now, when people tell me to just get on and get a job in retail, I simply can’t.

Not to mention that that path has the serious danger of you turning around in 10 years time from working in retail wondering where the hell your dreams and ambitions went.

The problem is if you are an arts graduate there is an abundance of such graduates and there is probably nothing much to make you stand out from all the rest. What the economy is crying out for are STEM graduates. There are acute shortages of graduates in every STEM line of business at the same time as a surplus of arts graduates.

Thousands of IT, life sciences, biotech and specialist engineering firms all over the country can’t expand because they can’t fill vacancies. That has a follow through in the rest of the economy and stops even unrelated firms expanding. In Scotland, there are 7,000 IT jobs created a year and only 1,500 students graduating in computing every year. Churn inevitably leads to shortages if there are not enough new graduates. There are Edinburgh IT firms advertising in Silicon Valley for staff because the shortages are so bad in the UK. These are all highly paid jobs and they can’t fill them from the UK labour market. No shortages of arts graduates.

Oil and gas and support firms working in the North Sea constantly complain about skills shortages and will take on engineering graduates if they can find any.
http://www.changerecruitmentgroup.net/blog/north-sea-jobs-boost-on-the-horizon-but-concerns-raised-over-skills-gap/

From the BBC website last year:

University leavers are increasingly taking non-graduate jobs, according to research.

Six months after leaving university, about 40% of last year’s graduates were “underemployed” in lower-skilled jobs, up from about 30% four years before.

The research, published by the Association of Accounting Technicians, says new graduates have been among the worst hit by the economic downturn. [May 2011]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-13361769

But from the Guardian survey cited @12 above:

“The latest stats show that it takes UK graduates an average of three months to find their first job after leaving education. For those who leave school at 18 and don’t go to university it takes 10% longer, and for those leaving education at 16 the gap is more than six months.”

Successive surveys of employment across west European countries report that graduate unemployment rates are almost always lower than comparable unemployment rates for non-graduates and employment rates are higher. The fact is that graduates and EU migrants are squeezing non-graduates out of jobs. I suspect that one reason is that employers regard a degree as signalling competence in literacy and numeracy, skills which non-graduate school leavers could be lacking.

Richard W: “There are Edinburgh IT firms advertising in Silicon Valley for staff because the shortages are so bad in the UK.”

My son, who works in the computer industry in California, tells me that American companies there find it challenging to recruit quality IT staffers. The FT has been regularly reporting UK shortages of computer related skills for years.

Btw recall that Apple’s chief designer is a Brit: Sir Jonathan Ive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive

Naomi, as Cherub asked, what was the subject of your degree? Employers have a shopping list and some subjects are not on it.

7. Chaise Guevara

I really think that a repertoire of nursery rhymes big enough to impress a small child can be learned in a couple of days before you start the job, don’t you?

Sure. But it goes to motivation. If she does not know any at all, then she probably wasn’t planning a career in this field. Nor is she likely to have any experience with nephews and nieces. Hell, she probably doesn’t even like children if she doesn’t know a few.

It is one of those interesting interview questions that tries to cut through the bullsh!t to what is really going on in her head.

The problem is simple. We are in an economic downturn. We turn out all many useless people with useless degrees. In many cases what they learnt during their degrees not only doesn’t help, it is positively harmful. Most employers would rather an eager High School drop out than someone whose head has been filled with critical theory. We need more people with useful degrees. Do one of those and people will give you a job. But waste three or four years of your life learning to hate anyone who might give you a job and you will struggle.

We give young people bad advice. Much of it deliberate.

My daughters did temping after leaving university. It helped them to gain experience. Employers want experience as well as qualifications. They did eventually find permanent employment.

A degree won’t necessarily lead to a highly paid job, but it does give you more options. And a university education is an end in itself. Pity it’s so expensive these days.

Some comments suggest IT degrees are the thing to have. I’m not so sure. At the start of this year I had to re-tool as I moved into cloud from .net at a new job. A month later a newly qualified computer science graduate arrived and suffice to say he was green as forest. Not incapable, just green as in the last month he has finally started to contribute and deliver. I know that empirically, basing my current attitude on one example is completely flawed but right now I have no other point of reference. I must therefore conclude that uni these days is pretty useless. I think the young lad realises that too by the way.

In 2003 I was one of the many graduates who left with a First Class Degree and ended up working for a year in a job that had only GCSE requirements. Since then I have completed a PhD, got an academic job – and have actually worked for a University Careers Service. In my experience (while there are of course exceptions and some people just have bad luck), the biggest criticism employers have is that students think their degree is enough. It is not. It is not enough to apply to a major company with a CV that lists only a degree result and some part-time retail experience. Maybe in the seventies a degree would have been enough to set you apart, but no longer. You need work experience during your studies, you need to do internships during the summer while you are a student, not after you graduate and you really should not be doing an unpaid internship and most University Careers Services won’t even advertise them now), you need to be speculatively approaching employers and asking to do work experience with them even if its just for just a couple of days. You need to make contact with your Careers service BEFORE you have sat your finals. The biggest Careers Fairs and events are held in the Autumn, as are all the major recruitment events for the Times top 100 companies . That means if you are not making plans for after graduation before Christmas of your final year you have left it too late. There are so many options for students, but the culture is one in which students are not making use of the resources available to them and are being made to feel fatalistic and feckless.

I obviously do not know the specifics of your circumstances, but all I can say is that as a graduate you should be allowed to use your University’s resources up to three years after you graduate. Get yourself to some Careers Events this Autumn and don’t believe a) that you have to do unpaid work or b) that this is a hopeless situation for graduates.

Those graduates who think about their future while they are still students have a much higher success rate that those who do not and for all the Guardian’s nightmare statistics and the lovely hate-filled rhetoric of posters here, Universities and employers are not out to get you, they are out to get the best person for the job and what a surprise – an employer looking to recruit a nanny wants to know you have relevant experience. So will any other company. And “I have a degree” is a saleable asset – a very saleable asset and often worth its money – but only when it is placed alongside other work and life experience.

20 Neil

My son in law, a Cambridge graduate has a well paid career in IT. Unfortunately he is finding that there is more and more outsourcing of IT jobs to India.

Lynnne: “My son in law, a Cambridge graduate has a well paid career in IT. Unfortunately he is finding that there is more and more outsourcing of IT jobs to India.”

Besides ‘hard’ IT skills (electronic engineering, programming), there are many ‘soft’ skill jobs, such as in video games, website design, online communications like PR and advertising, networking, social media and what’s called Med(ical) Ed(ucation).

The soft jobs are less much outsourceable to India than the hard jobs because the soft jobs need to be nearer to market.

The marketing power of social media is only just being recognised. In the news, a Dutch girl, living in a small northern town in the Netherlands, unwisely mentioned online that she was holding a party. 4000 people turned up and a riot ensued – police were injured. OTOH this is an outstanding example of a flourishing, American social media website, financed by advertising, which has been going for years to my knowledge: http://gawker.com/

Many large companies run secure private networks on the internet to keep employees and client groups informed – think of a car company launching its latest model. Healthcare professionals have access to secure private networks to keep them briefed on treatments, outcomes, NHS news etc.

With the ageing populations of affluent countries, web-related Med Ed is a flourishing industry. Besides the obvious websites and email services focused on prevalent ailments, there are less obvious examples. Pharmaceutical companies are looking for expert advice and support in communicating the benefits of their patented drugs to decision makers.

Naomi: In these times, anyone looking for a job with children or young people is apt to be regarded with suspicion, especially when they are over-qualified.

Consider, also, about where your next job is likely to come from as you are quite likely to be typecast by your first job and can find it challenging to change tack thereafter.

Submitted without comment.

Try these recent news items on the BBC website:

Town centres will need to market themselves as convenient hubs for picking up products ordered online if they are to thrive into the next decade, a report says.

The report from research group Experian says retailers will have to cope with more people shopping online.
At the same time, they must cater for an ageing population, it adds. [22 September 2012]

Online retailer Amazon is to create more than 2,000 permanent jobs in the UK over the next two years.

The US-based company officially opened a new distribution centre in Hemel Hempstead on Thursday, creating 600 of the new posts.

It will open another two depots in the coming months. [6 September 2012]

To my great surprise the other day, I discovered that Amazon is now selling food products as well as books, DVDs, computers and clothes.

Bob B

I know diddly squat about IT. I do know my son in law does a highly specialized job in IT.

However you are quite right in saying that that people with children who are overqualified are viewed with suspician. My youngest daughters children are of an age where she wants to return to work. She always seems to get pipped at the post when it comes to an interview.It seems it was much easier to find a job before she had children.

Lynne: “I know diddly squat about IT”

But you do know about IT. For starters, you are posting to this specialised kind of social media website – and when 8.5 million in Britain have never used the internet.

What keeps a website like Gawker going for years is not the IT but the gossipy content which attracts regular followers and advertising because of that. I mention Gawker here as it is New York based and probably entirely novel to most readers here so they can take a more detached view of what makes for a successful social media website.

Gawker – and this site – would fail if it were not for the content. There’s an old IT adage which says: Content is king.

It’s much easier to find alternative sources for the hard IT skills than it is to replicate the content of attractive websites. If that were not so, there would be more competition than there is. Many online blogs fail because they don’t attract regular readers and followers.

A sharp, analytical business insight is what keeps people in IT jobs. For all the excitement about Apple’s new products, the fact is that about 90pc of PCs run Microsoft Window’s operating system. There are complex reasons why that is so. Understanding the market is what got Microsoft into that dominant position – and recall that Bill Gates started out as a Harvard undergraduate dropout.

@ 18 SMFS

“Sure. But it goes to motivation. If she does not know any at all, then she probably wasn’t planning a career in this field. Nor is she likely to have any experience with nephews and nieces. Hell, she probably doesn’t even like children if she doesn’t know a few.

It is one of those interesting interview questions that tries to cut through the bullsh!t to what is really going on in her head.”

Fair point. I suppose it’s one way of finding out whether the candidate is just applying for every job they see.

“We give young people bad advice. Much of it deliberate.”

Oh, I don’t think it’s deliberate. I think people just believe in what they think should be true rather than what is true. And “you should get as much education as possible” sounds like good advice, like the moral at the end of a schmaltzy American TV show.

As others have already said, how can we comment until we know which subject and which university?

Hello,

My name is Naomi and I wrote the article. I wanted to write a comment in order to answer some questions.

I have a first Class degree with honors in Classics and English from Royal Holloway University. My aim is to go into Broadcast Journalism. I am currently applying for the BBC Journalism Trainee Scheme.

I have refrained from discussing my degree because regardless of what I chose to do my voice echoes the frustration and feelings of my friends, peers, and other recent graduates. I do not mean that it is irrelevant but my article is based on not only my experiences but the experiences of my peers those around me. Regardless of what we studied, we’re all struggling.

Thanks

Naomi Nightingale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4

“As others have already said, how can we comment until we know which subject and which university?”

As mentioned before, The Economist in the early 1980s published a piece on what happened to philosophy PhDs from American universities where the annual output far exceeded the academic vacancies. As reported, they were disproportionately going into the burgeoning computer industry in America where skills in logic and analysis of language were valued.

Jobs and careers don’t necessarily relate to degree subjects. Btw try the CV of Sir Jonathan Ive as cited in the link @16 or reflect on the career of Nobel laureate Sir Peter Mansfield FRS who failed his 11+ exam and left school at 15 to become an apprentice bookbinder. He took night school classes to gain university entry where he achieved a first in a physics degree. His Nobel laureate was for developing the software to run MRI scanners.

Well, Naomi, I guess all I can say is that many have gone before. I’m a grammar school boy and we had a teacher who told us that, as the top 10%, we were destined to take the top jobs and to be Special. (One wonders whether the selective execution of such twats might have saved us from the likes of Bojo, Cams & Osbo.)

I eschewed Oxbridge for foolish political reasons. I got a drinkers’ degree in a science at Sussex. I’ve sort of bobbled along since then. So much for prophecy.

I think the truth is that a degree helps, as taking time to study and learn about oneself and other stuff is useful. However it’s not a meal ticket. The question of the proportion of those who might be considered successes due to their degrees compared to the failures of those who lack them is interesting. Begging this question has led to the policy of New Labour, which is in my opinion fatuous: that increasing the number of graduates will magic us a better workforce and economy.

The truth is that you’re just starting. You have a solid foundation. I wish you the best of luck.

Plumbing or Central Heating Engineer is the answer. Train in that field get a USP of a “lady” plumber work hard and the money will roll in.
As for the degree …………..well I have two daughters. One who has a degree in Law from Leeds and one who dropped out at 16.
They are both doing well in their respective professions,they earn around the same £25K plus. Only the drop out doesn’t owe £15k in student loans!

Degrees have been pushed as a way of keeping youngsters of the unemployed register. If you have the will to suceed you will even if you have to start on your own. my only advice as a crusty is to keep your options open. Don’t give up but don’t let your degree become an albatross around your neck. As for internships they were invented by the Toffs to deflect accusations of nepotism.

@ Naomi

I have a first Class degree with honors in Classics and English from Royal Holloway University.

Excellent. So how many nursery rhymes do you know?

Seriously, you will be aware that “a career in broadcast journalism” sets the bar pretty high in terms of competition and that you will need both talent and luck to succeed. A plan B might be advisable.

But very best wishes.

Naomi, thanks for telling us a little more about yourself. Very brave. As others have said, a degree doesn’t guarantee success. It’s been especially hard in the last decade or so because so many have gone to university, which increases the competition for what jobs are available in a recession.

I know what it feels like, but from the other end of the age spectrum. I was very lucky as an engineering apprentice that my company paid to put me through a thin sandwich degree in engineering. However, that hasn’t protected me from redundancy and the last time it happened I was over 50 when nobody wanted oldies. So, I went freelance and I’ve never looked back. Indeed, I’ve never been busier.

I’ve also seen it from your end. I’ve got four kids (well hardly kids now) and two have degrees. All four have found it very tough.

If you can’t get a placement, I would recommend freelancing. It at least has the upside that you can’t be made redundant!

Oh and of all degrees, even a hard-bitten engineering type like me wouldn’t denigrate English. Sometimes I wish my English was better, particularly when I’m writing a massive report as I am at the moment. (Which is why I’m surfing rather than writing words!)

Best of luck.

@pagar #9:

Unless they get a job in the public sector, of course, where there are not the same fiscal constraints.

I just thought I’d pull this out; it does rather demonstrate your qualification to comment on such matters.

Naomi

“when people tell me to just get on and get a job in retail, I simply can’t.”

Yes you can; and you should. At your stage in life, you need to take any job that’s available – while keeping your sights high and without getting into a rut. I interview a couple of hundred people every year, and I can say that few things deter employers so much as signs of inactivity after graduation. What appeals to me as an interviewer in recent graduates is the ability to learn transferable skills – like dealing with customer complaints and working in a team, both of which you can acquire in a retail environment. When I left university (Oxford) in 1979, my first job was cleaning railway carriages…then I got a junior administrative post and within 18 months my career took off…

Anyway, good luck…

I got a degree in International Politics and the Third World, graduate in 2007 with a 2:2…..Currently I am working as a shop assistant, with no sign of any other employment opportunity coming up.

@ Geraint

2.2 can be a bit of a bitch. In my experience loads of places are only interested in a 2.1 (which I scraped by the skin of my teeth). Is there anyway you could augment it, maybe get an M.A. or something?

39. Geraint

I got a degree in International Politics and the Third World, graduate in 2007 with a 2:2…..Currently I am working as a shop assistant, with no sign of any other employment opportunity coming up.

This must be trolling in the original sense, right?

I mean what sort of employment opportunity does someone with a degree in International Politics and the Third World expect? Running the UN?

@ 41 SMFS

Oh, sheer class. What did you study at university, Art of Kicking People While They’re Down?

I spent four years at Uni.

I did well and joined an org that suited my ambitions

However my face stopped fitting and I run a successfulish tours company. I have a lot of freedom to be myself.

I still miss working in an college.

However these days it is about whether your face fits.
You can be a really good employee but if they don’t like you no progress is possible.

Nannying -give it a go but don’t tell people you have a degree unless there is good reason.

Naomi

My degree is in Life Science as to the above.

Setting up the tours business started with my wildlife knowledge but has no moved on to discrete tours for swingers etc( I don’t indulge by the way).

I also run a contract system for parties to clubs and things.

All because I was forced out of college.

English is an excellent degree for journalism but the right looks and a bit of street sassiness go a long way.

Many media orgs are very corporate and expect you to tow the line slavishly.

A bit of freelancing perhaps, use the obvious skills you

Must have been tired last night, I left the ends of my words whoops

Geraint @ 39:

As you got a 2:2, either you were unlucky or you are not particularly academic. Also, from the title of your degree, I suspect you went to Aberystwyth, which the Guardian ranks 81st out of 120 UK universities.

That is the bad news: the good news is that you have a job, albeit in retail. I wouldn’t take CG’s advice @ 40 and try to do an MA. Rather, I would try to make your way in retail management: move around the retail sector, getting on as many training courses as possible, researching career pathways in retail, and aiming to get on a retail management scheme with one of the big chains…With the commercial experience you will gain, you might find yourself able to move into development work in the third world in a few years.

If that does not appeal, you need some intensive career guidance with psychometric testing to identify your strengths and aptitudes…

Good luck!

“and I can say that few things deter employers so much as signs of inactivity after graduation”

Out of interest is this likely to be the case because the person concerned graduated a decade ago, and due to reasons of space has only written their last few jobs on their CV/Application form? Also bear in mind that somebody might regard shelf stacking experience as really not that important when applying for a highly skilled role that they have more relevant experience for.

It is often said that you have 10 seconds to impress a potential employer with a CV, so a lot of people focus on ensuring theirs will stand out. I’d say that an employer that can’t be bothered to spend more than 10 seconds looking at the full history and skills of a potential employee is only ever going end up employing people good at attention seeking, making first impressions and being able to bullshit.

We’re focusing too much on one side here. The entire HR profession should look at themselves a bit more critically here. The culture of british management is frankly crap, with recruitment and training only being one feature of this. I honestly think in years to come we shall see this problem of graduate unemployment, under-employment, and internships as a dammning inditment on the way british business works.

Naomi – at the risk of adding to the patronising nature of this thread, the best advice I can give is this. Everyone is self-employed – if you choose to have a job what that means is simply you have chosen to work for one client. Think about the implications of this mentality and what it means for you, and perhaps you will come up with your own solutions to the difficulties you currently have.

“At your stage in life, you need to take any job that’s available – while keeping your sights high and without getting into a rut. I interview a couple of hundred people every year, and I can say that few things deter employers so much as signs of inactivity after graduation. ”

Naomi: Beware of getting typecast by your first job. If by some malign twist of fate you don’t make the Beeb, try Channel4 or the film industry. Inquiring via the British Film Institute (BFI) might provide some useful signposts. An ambitious target: Working Title, a top-notch production company which produced Pride & Prejudice, and Anna Karenina.

” I suspect you went to Aberystwyth, which the Guardian ranks 81st out of 120 UK universities.”

Many students make their choice not on reputation or league position but on course, location, closeness of friends, cost of living etc.

Plymouth and John Moores in Liverpool are well respected in Science, though few would think so.

49: “Many students make their choice not on reputation or league position but on course, location, closeness of friends, cost of living etc.”

I suspect that many students are guided by the advice of their school or college teachers if their parents are not graduates and, of course, GCSE and expected A-level grades matter for places at the Russell Group universities. I believe Oxford colleges still offer the option of entrance exams and interviews. Where a student ends up depends on an element of chance but final degree class matters.

By press reports, increasingly employers are saying they expect at least a 2i from applicants for their graduate placements. At that stage, schooling is much less significant:

“The UK’s most expensive private schools are producing pupils who achieve the worst grades at university, according to research. An eight-year study of graduates’ results by researchers at the University of Warwick suggests that the more parents pay in school fees, the less chance their children have of getting a good degree.” [ BBC website 7 December 2002]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/2552523.stm

“The UK’s most expensive private schools are producing pupils who achieve the worst grades at university”

Something that needs to be repeated everytime we hear people criticising the state sector

PS @ 47:

“Out of interest is this likely to be the case because the person concerned graduated a decade ago, and due to reasons of space has only written their last few jobs on their CV/Application form?”

No. I was referring to recent graduates.

Bobb @ 50:

That research is 10 years old. Have you anything more recent? Because if not, that would suggest that other researchers could not replicate the results.

tigerdarwin @ 49:

“Many students make their choice not on reputation or league position but on course, location, closeness of friends, cost of living etc.”

Perhaps, but that is imprudent when you are going to have pay back your student loan.

51: “Something that needs to be repeated everytime we hear people criticising the state sector”

It is often overlooked that the best of state (maintained) schools achieve better average A-level results per candidate than some of the famously notorious (non-maintained) fee paying schools. I often mention here that two maintained boys schools within walking distance of where I sit achieve better average A-level results than Eton.

53: “That research is 10 years old. Have you anything more recent? Because if not, that would suggest other researchers could not replicate the results.”

The research at Warwick University, quoted @50, was based on a substantial data set. I can only assume that if later research turned up contrary findings we would have read about that, especially given the rate at which the fees of non-maintained schools have been increasing. One predictable market implication of the inflation of fees for the non-maintained schools has been increased pressure to gain places at the best of the maintained schools.

Bob B @ 55:

“I can only assume that if later research turned up contrary findings we would have read about that”

Hmmm….that’s a big assumption you are making there! Contrary findings might not be considered so newsworthy.

@54. TONE: “Perhaps, but that is imprudent when you are going to have pay back your student loan.”

My perspective, TONE, is that the suggestion that 50% or whatever of 18 year olds enter full time higher education is wrong. It was wrong five and ten years ago.

The economy needs smart AND educated people (educated does not equal smart). Society needs the same. You do not deliver smart AND educated people by squeezing 18 year olds through a sausage factory.

Present and past governments owe young people an apology. Everything that they implied — get a degree and get ahead — was bollocks.

Some young people are directed in what they wish to achieve, and they can pick a vocational or broad academic course that will give them opportunities. Those people are a minority; most people just don’t know at age 18 years.

So change the system and culture. Acknowledge that some people want to go to HE at 18 years — those who are driven by fascination of a subject — but remove it from expectation. Allow young people to grow up, and make the post 18 years age choice one that they can re-enter when they have made up their mind at 21 or 41 years.

@ 54 tone

”Perhaps, but that is imprudent when you are going to have pay back your student loan.”

That is true of those entering HE today, less true of the past

Indeed northern students, no matter how good have been rather reluctant to come south in the last couple of decades. Even students with the grades to get into Oxbridge from the Northern cities have been reluctant. Liverpool, Manc, Newcastle etc have been the beneficiaries.

Further I suspect you will see far more students going local, its cheaper and staying at home with mum. This is a trend that has been developing for a few ytears

Charlieman @ 57: Well said: I agree, completely. Consider working your post up into an OP for LC.

I would only add that we must somehow get away from the notion that purely academic study is superior to applied and vocational study (which should not be in degree format). To be a CORGI-approved plumber requires studying to what I’d say was MSc level – and my plumber’s son got a first in physics from Queen Mary, London. OK, anecdote. But we need more skilled people; and far, far fewer Eng Lit, Media Studies, psychology, etc graduates from mediocre universities.

td @ 58:

“Even students with the grades to get into Oxbridge from the Northern cities have been reluctant. Liverpool, Manc, Newcastle etc have been the beneficiaries.”

A decent degree from a Russell Group university will impress most employers. Yes, I’m sure students will increasingly try to study close to home; but if so, they should prudently choose the highest ranking university near them.

@ 58 Tone

”But we need more skilled people; and far, far fewer Eng Lit, Media Studies, psychology, etc graduates from mediocre universities.”

Until recently employers only looked for the grade rather than the Uni status. That finished with modularisation. My degree is from what would now be bottom of the Russell group but my A Level grades from 1981 are A B D not bad in today’s terms, I would almost certainly have got A * A and B.

So from the past it is poorly applicable.

From the present it is to. An English degree is still good. Media Studies a 21 or above is much prized by HR depts, if fact its employability is rather high. Psychology is still very employable.

For Media Studies today read History of Art in the early eighties.. H of A is so beloved of the Royals today by the way. I learned to my cost not to diss it when I did in front of Antiques valuer. He of course laughed when he told of how he got his 21 from a highly non reputable uni. .

In fact it is the grade that still counts. A third in any is of little use as an academic subject even if from a Russel Group Uni unless it is Physic et al.

Golf course management by the way. Very employable as I understand. In the eighties the political Right complained that degrees were too academic. Now they aren’t academic enough as Natasha and Benjamin are excluded from jobs by the oik classes. What nonsense.

@ 58 Tone

Yes, I’m sure students will increasingly try to study close to home; but if so, they should prudently choose the highest ranking university near them.

My mate did his science degree in Plymouth. Are you saying he should have gone to Exeter.