The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over


5:49 pm - September 12th 2012

by Sunny Hundal    


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Last night mobs of people attacked the US embassies in Libya and Egypt, killing several people including one US State Department official.

The riots were sparked after local TV stations in Egypt and Libya showed parts from the film, from YouTube, and gave the impression it was being shown on US TV.

Here’s the background.

According to the Wall Street Journal, the film was the brainchild of 52-year-old writer, director and producer, Sam Bacile. He said he wanted to showcase his view of Islam as a hateful religion.

Mr. Bacile said he raised $5 million from about 100 Jewish donors, whom he declined to identify. Working with about 60 actors and 45 crew members, he said he made the two-hour movie in three months last year in California.

“Islam is a cancer,” he told the WSJ in a telephone interview from his home. “The movie is a political movie. It’s not a religious movie.”

The Times of Israel reports:

Speaking from a telephone with a California number, Bacile said he is Jewish and familiar with the region. Bacile said the film was produced in English and he doesn’t know who dubbed it in Arabic. The full film has not been shown yet, he said, and he said he has declined distribution offers for now. “My plan is to make a series of 200 hours” about the same subject, he said.

Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-born Christian in the U.S. known for his anti-Islam views, told The Associated Press from Washington that he was promoting the video on his website and on certain TV stations, which he did not identify.

The film is also AWFULLY MADE.

Update: here is the trailer (the other one I embedded has now been made private)

(hat-tip @ZarahSultana)

It starts with some present-day incidents and then goes into Muslim history after 2 minutes.

I’m publishing the video not because it has any artistic merit, nor because I want to deliberately offend people, nor because this is an issue about free speech.

I’m publishing it to illustrate what an epic effort at deliberate trolling it is. This is no different to people who want to make films or write articles telling ‘the truth‘ about the Holocaust or 9/11.

It has to be seen to be believed it is not out to expose any truth or convince anyone. It is incoherent, idiotic and juvenile. It simultaneously portrays the Prophet Mohammed as gay and sexually abusing women in the next scene. It makes NO sense.

It has been made purely to create a reaction, knowing full well that some extremists in the Middle East would jump on it for their own political gain.

The aim of the post isn’t to offend Muslims who find any portrayal of their Prophet offensive – it is to highlight the extent to which this has become a mutually beneficial charade for extremists who want to stoke up anger and riots.

Update: I’ve now embedded the original trailer.

Update 2: Charlie Beckett at Polis has a good post on this: Political Violence: symbolism that only works if you let it

Update 3: Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic suspects ‘Sam Bacile’ is neither Israeli and it is not his real name.

Also, I don’t know why I have to state the obvious: I condemn the death of innocent people the rioting without reservation. This is a huge over-reaction deliberately provoked by some extremist elements in the Middle East. The point of the post was to illustrate the mutually beneficial relationship that extremist elements have across the world.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


It’s also available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC6yGzpSvjU&feature=player_embedded

And yes, I agree. It’s terrible.

Although I am a Christian (CoE) I also attend the Conway Hall. A few months ago they had a remarkably perspicacious lecturer who, against opposition from the more militant atheists present, insisted that there was no chance of people with committed views on any religion or none converting each other.
Therefore, he said, the best we can hope for is to try to get along amicably without upsetting each other.
This type of film-making does the opposite.
In any case I would also like to point out that the Quilliam website thinks the film is irrelevant to the Libyan incident. I obviously happened on the anniversary of 9/11 – and after the non-judicial murder of a senior Al Qaeda official. Maybe it is the US and UK media who are actually hyping up this wretched film – not offended Muslim Arabs!

The bit of the film I watched looked thoroughly crass and amateurish, certainly not the polished piece to be expected of either professional film makers or media savvy people from TV news and docs. This leads me to think about the producer’s motivation, especially so in the light of Sunny’s introduction. I wondered whether this could have something to do with the motivation?

“Obama ‘unable to meet’ Israel PM Netanyahu”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19565910

Romney has already popped up to say that he would have met Netanyahu.

4. Northern Worker

Assuming the trailer is one of the best bits it’s terrible!

But that aside, I would have thought this website was on the side of free speech as long as the speech isn’t a pack of lies or deliberately distorted propaganda. I can’t tell from the trailer if the film is either of these, although it’s clearly totally awful.

Another point: the people involved in this atrocious film haven’t murdered anyone. The demonstrators have.

5. lyufitdkliyurfohfgclnmnvuye

$5,000,000 to make this shit?

Might I suggest that the hundred or so doners have been badly ripped off? I reckon this could be made for a fraction of that.

Sam Bacile is supposed to have gone into hiding. Is it not possible that he’s pocketed $4,980,000 after spending a poxy 2 grand on the filming of this supposed epic and is now sunning himself on a beach in South America, cocktail in hand, surrounded by beautiful women. That’s what I’d be doing.

hmmm, seriously dodgy. Someone no better than a spiv peddles badly made crap, which gets whipped up into something infinitely worse, for everyone concerned. Why would anyone accept at face value this scam, and use it as an excuse to murder?

There are legitemate questions about the origins of ALL the world’s religions, and other ideologies for that matter. It frequently looks like a liars contest to me.

7. Robert the crip

Come on this looked more like a comedy I was waiting for John Cleese to jump out, this has to be Monty Python it cannot be anything else.

If the Muslim faith cannot smile at it’s self then sadly we are in for a long hard slog.

8. Raymond Terrific

The only thing more retarded than this film are those who would kill because it has offended their religion.

I had a jehovah’s witness around this morning and lord knows I could have at least slapped him for offending my religions of science, progress, good manners and not interrupting someone’s morning coffee to spout utter shite. I refrained.

So, is it acceptable to riot and cause death because a film insults Mohammad? Come on eggheads, lets get this sorted.

@ Robert the Crip

maybe fundamentalism is a sense of humour bypass!

The film is also AWFULLY MADE.

Everyone’s a critic these days.

The aim of the post isn’t to offend Muslims who find any portrayal of their Prophet offensive – it is to highlight the extent to which this has become a mutually beneficial charade for extremists who want to stoke up anger and riots.

Good luck explaining [i]context[/i] to fundamentalists.

I think remarking on the film’s poor taste is in itself poor taste. Given that people have now been killed because of this, it might be worth reflecting on how much more violent the second half of the 20th century would have been if there had been people willing to respond in such a murderous way to a film they found vulgar and offensive.

maybe fundamentalism is a sense of humour bypass!

That’s pretty much the message I got from The Name of the Rose.

Humour works because of the contrast between two thoughts held simultaneously, whether its a basic pun (double meaning), a dignified figure walking into a lamp post, or the most sophisticated irony.

No place in a religion where everything is absolutely true or absolutely wrong.

This is the Danish cartoons situation again, isnt it? The problem here is that there are people, both in the USA and in the Muslim world, – ( and even in Norway!) who have had a very poor education or just have chronic intellectual constipation, and therefore take very poor decisions. Actually, you could show a film of Enid Blytons “Noddy” to some of these folk and they would try to blow someone up for insulting Big Eared people. Lets not over-react, but in the meantime, lets try to diminish the wealth gap between the super-rich and the super poor, because ultimately, this is about the money, money, money, and has very little to do with belief systems.

14. the a&e charge nurse

At least a more measured analysis by a respected academic would not be pulled by a major british TV channel for upsetting the believers would it?
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/channel-4-cancels-controversial-screening-of-islam-the-untold-story-documentary-after-presenter-tom-holland-is-threatened-8125641.html

15. the a&e charge nurse

At the risk of upsetting those who fear truth – the link to Tom Holland’s film is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8xKh8eQqU

Bloody hell that was crap and I can see why it has pissed off some Muslims. I’m no expert on the life of Mohammed but given the response in hard-line Muslim countries to pictures, cartoons and teddy bears then I certainly wouldn’t want to be portraying Mohammed as a gay, child molester being chased by his mother-in-law (or whoever she was). That actor is a marked man.

If the film was the flash point for the riots then I am not at all surprised since we have seen similar reactions in the past.Although why a random American diplomat was killed doesn’t make sense to me. I suspect that there is more to that part of the story than has so far come to light.

I think remarking on the film’s poor taste is in itself poor taste. Given that people have now been killed because of this, it might be worth reflecting on how much more violent the second half of the 20th century would have been if there had been people willing to respond in such a murderous way to a film they found vulgar and offensive.

It’s not either/or though is it?

It’s quite possible to condemn the murderers, whilst also seeing Im Bacile’s film for what it is: a witless piece of shit-stirring.

Sunny description of the whole episode as “a mutually beneficial charade for extremists” is bang on the money.

There seems to a consensus that Bacile’s film about Muhammad was rubbish, for several reasons, as well as (predictably?) offensive to Muslims but that consensus does not credibly explain why it was produced and why it surfaced at this time.

Btw many thanks due @15 for the link to Tom Holland’s Channel4 doc: Islam – The Untold Story. I don’t understand why Muslims regard it as offensive.

19. Just Visiting

the a&e charge nurse

A very, very bad day for freedom of speech when C4 choose to not screen using due to ‘Having taken security advice, we have reluctantly cancelled ‘.

It’s a bullies licence – and as the OP shows, violence is too often the reflex response in the Islamic world – so does this mean the end of the media being willing to cover Islam at all?

20. Just Visiting

oh dear – the American embassy seems already to be cowtowing to the bullies, on the very day their embassador was killed – their site says:

The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions

This is giving bullies a green flag.

21. Just Visiting

It seems the murdered ambassador was a friend to the Libyan uprising, having risked his own life to be smuggled in to help them during the fighting last year:

http://gma.yahoo.com/slain-diplomat-chris-stevens-slipped-libya-cargo-ship-154521257.html

Well apparently “Sam Bacile” may not actually exist, aside from as a pseudonym, for some guy called Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-American anti-Muslim activist. Which has led to speculation that the whole debacle was staged in order to damage the Obama campaign. Which given that he managed in one week’s time to take an overlooked YouTube video featuring a lame attack on Islam and turn it into a flashpoint with violent extremists, with deadly consequences – and has had various republicans jumping straight to blaming Obama for both the placating tweets from the Egyptian embassy as well as the general shitstorm – isn’t that far-fetched an idea at the moment.

But, of course, the most damning thing is that such an obvious trolling attempt actually worked. It found fertile ground, moreover it found fertile ground in rather interesting nations. It, for example, didn’t find fertile ground in Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Afghanistan – but in ‘revolutionary’ Egypt and Libya. Foreign policy consequences perhaps?

Shuggy: , it might be worth reflecting on how much more violent the second half of the 20th century would have been if there had been people willing to respond in such a murderous way to a film they found vulgar and offensive.

One would have thought that if the Danish cartoons controversy taught us something – it was that we can talk and chew gum at the same time.

Is it really difficult for you to recognise that some extremist Muslims fell for an epic trolling attempt, and both have a mutually beneficial reason for doing so?

News sources tonight are saying that this was a pre-planned attack instigated by Zawahiri – the head of al-Qaeda after the death of Osama Bin Laden – to mourn the death of a leading al-Qaeda commander, Abu Yahya al Libi, who came from Libya, on the anniversary of 9/11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9539148/US-consulate-attack-in-Libya-the-warning-signs-were-there-in-Benghazi.html

If so, Bacile’s film was used as a pretext to inflame the rioters and so provide cover for an attack by a small group of heavily armed jihadists with a mission to kill high-profile Americans. Even so, that leaves unanswered questions about what really motivated the production of a crass film and why it surfaced at this time.

@Sunny and Bob B

does what both of you say there imply that the über-crischuns of the “Confederacy” and the islamofaschists of “Lybyia” colluded to destroy any hope for either nation?

Anyone claiming that Channel 4 pulled the Untold Story documentary should be horsewhipped for inflammatory lying. They showed it on the telly and online, as originally planned. They cancelled a PR event for it, because they were worried it’d turn into a rioty shitstorm after some nutters lied about its content. Which is what sane people do when they’re worried there’ll be a rioty shitstorm.

Bob B is doubtless correct about what occurred in Libya, meanwhile.

Presumably the people who think Muslims have no right to be angry about the Mohammed movie and that there’s nothing wrong with spreading it also believe Jews have no right to be angry about the blood libel and that there’s nothing wrong with spreading it? In both cases, outrageous lies about a group’s religious practices are being used to stir up hatred against that group…

27. the a&e charge nurse

[26] ‘They cancelled a PR event for it, because they were worried it’d turn into a rioty shitstorm after some nutters lied about its content’- at least a hit wasn’t put out on the author this time.

We shouldn’t grumble that the ability to hold PR events lies in the hands of true believers.

Christ on a bike.

Let’s assume I’ve done a new documentary about the Hell’s Angels – a reasonably sympathetic one, say along the lines of Hunter S’s book – but they don’t like the fact that I’ve made it and an angry mob say they’re going to rock up to my celebrity premiere and hit people with chains.

Is that:

a) Creeping Hell’s Angelisation of our way of life, disgraceful pandering to Hell’s Angelsism, etc etc (ctd page 94)

b) a sensible way of avoiding an easily avoidable public order disaster that would otherwise be my fault?

Clue: b.

According to AP, the producer’s real name is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, he is based in California and is of Coptic Egyptian background.

It looks like life of brian 2; the muslim years. It is just so bad In every sense it’s laughable. He is not the messiah…

31. Just Visiting

John b

> Presumably the people who think Muslims have no right to be angry about the Mohammed movie

I don’t know who those people are – but haven’t seen them on LC.

Of course they have a right to be joyous or angry about a film – the problem for all of us on LC (ought to be) that they resorted to violence. And as a result killed people not involved in the movie at all.

>… also believe Jews have no right to be angry about the blood libel

Well, pretty much every week on Hamas TV, Iranian TV and other Islamic country stations overt anti-semitism is broadcast – but haven’t seen amny rioting Jews around the world killing people about it.

> In both cases, outrageous lies about a group’s religious practices are being used to stir up hatred against that group…

Like I said – you should check the output of some middle eastern channels – as this 1 film is small beer compared to the continuous stream from there.

32. Just Visiting

“In both cases, outrageous lies about a group’s religious practices are being used to stir up hatred against that group…”

I’m sure outrageous lies are used to stir up hatreds about groups but let’s recall who perpetrated 9/11, the Madrid bombing, 7/7 bombing in London and the Mumbai atrocity in 2008 and who builds illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land. I can’t think of any convincing reason why women should be required to sit at the back of a bus except bigotry.

34. Just Visiting

American academic says the film should be jailed!


If there is anyone who values free speech, it is a tenured professor!

So why did I tweet that Bacile should be in jail? The “free speech” in Bacile’s film is not about expressing a personal opinion about Islam. It denigrates the religion by depicting the faith’s founder in several ludicrous and historically inaccurate scenes to incite and inflame viewers….
While the First Amendment right to free expression is important, it is also important to remember that other countries and cultures do not have to understand or respect our right.

35. Just Visiting

In Iran – they are protesting outside which embassy?

Swiss embassy?

Sure, there is no US embassy in Iran. And the Swiss one offers consular services to Americans there.

But it sure is clear alot of these guys see their fight as Islam against the West – even tho Obama and the US Embassy in Cairo etc all try to avoid face off

36. Just Visiting

Palestinian president talks to Obama to get censorship in USA of what Muslims don’t like:


(AGI) Brussels – Egyptian President Morsi told Obama that he is committed to ensuring the security of foreign nationals in Egypt. The move comes after fresh protests outside the US embassy in Cairo, but Morsi also also called for an end to “provocations”, like a recent controversial film about prophet Mohammed.
“We firmly oppose those who are launching these provocations and promote hatred “, Morsi said at a press point in Brussels, the first stage of his European tour. “Following my conversation with Obama, it is clear that the American people share our view. There is only a minority who thinks otherwise. I asked Obama to put an end to such behaviours”, Mohamed Morsi said.

Wonder what he’d say if the west started asking Hamas and Fatah to censor what we don’t like?!

Ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha.

lol

37. the a&e charge nurse

[28] lets just hope the angels don’t take exception to books, or even cartoons.

Obviously pulling the odd PR event out of fear is OK?

38. Churm Rincewind

@ JustVisiting (throughout). Oh dear. This one does seem to have exercised you considerably. So, by way of a few mild correctives:

@20: You say that the US position of condemning “efforts to offend believers of all religions” is “kowtowing to bullies”. Hmm. Speaking as one of the irreligious, I’d say that honest and informed debate about religion is acceptable, but that “efforts to offend” are not. I guess it rather depends on whether you think hate speech is OK.

@ 31: You say that “overt anti-semitism” is broadcast on Iranian TV and “other Islamic Country stations”. I myself don’t watch Iranian TV (my Farsi isn’t really good enough) but I have travelled extensively in the region and my impression is that although anti-Israel sentiment is widespread, anti-semitism isn’t. Certainly I’ve never seen anything on Middle East TV to justify your claim that “this film is small beer compared to the continuous stream from there”. Perhaps you could refer me to specific programming?

@ 32, 34, and 35: I’m uncertain as to the points you wish to make.

@ 36: You seem to disapprove of the Egyptian President’s statement opposing those who “promote hatred”. I would have thought this is a relatively uncontentious statement. Unless, of course, you think we should not oppose people who promote hatred. For my part, I do.

Don’t get me wrong. I utterly oppose and condemn the recent violence. But I equally oppose and condemn those who provoked it.

39. Just Visiting

Churn

> This one does seem to have exercised you considerably.

It does. It’s part of an ongoing pattern where Islamic violence is downplayed and the blame slid across to the West. It’s IMHO a real threat to liberal democracy the world over.

Your own statement is typcial of the problem:

> I utterly oppose and condemn the recent violence. But I equally oppose and condemn those who provoked it.

How can you condemn killing ‘equally’ as much as a whacko merely saying whacko things, thousands of miles away ?

> I’ve never seen anything on Middle East TV to justify your claim that “this film is small beer compared to the continuous stream from there”. Perhaps you could refer me to specific programming?

Sorry, but as per your comment above, you don’t yet seem willing to face the reality here – which explains why you’ve not even looked yet for antisemitic TV.

I know you’ve actively avoing looking – because even googling for something as obvious as ‘antisemitic tv’ throws up examples.

Until you and and others in the west are willing to take off the blinkers and take an honest look – people will continue to blame the victim.

And Islamic bullies will go unchecked round the world – as the deaths continue.

40. Man on Clapham Omnibus

This film is bad enough to strike fear into the fairies at the bottom of my garden. I must hide the shoe polish immediately.

But it sure is clear alot of these guys see their fight as Islam against the West

And a lot of the western extremists also see their fight as the West against Islam, both groups of extremists see one another, see one another’s activities and get to declare “LOOK! See I was right about them all along!”, and then everyone else has to put up with the consequences. Or as Sunny said in the OP

The point of the post was to illustrate the mutually beneficial relationship that extremist elements have across the world.

42. Man on Clapham Omnibus

@39

‘And Islamic bullies will go unchecked round the world – as the deaths continue.’

A bit like American/British bullies going unchecked around the world as the deaths continue.

I always think its good to see who is doing what to whom and why. This latest episode isn’t to do with bullies.It is rather part of an ongoing struggle between the ideology of religion and secularism. The film maybe crap and the rioters stupid, but there are some very smart cookies steering this particular ship.

“The film maybe crap and the rioters stupid, but there are some very smart cookies steering this particular ship.”

Like the smart cookies who orchestrated 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the London bombings on 7/7 and the Mumbai atrocity in 2008? Doubtless, all clever Islamic organisation. It’s a shame such talents aren’t directed against preventing tragedies such as: “Fires engulf Pakistan factories killing 314 workers”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/12/uk-pakistan-fire-idUKBRE88B07A20120912

As they say, politics is a matter of priorities.

@18 Bob B

…Tom Holland’s Channel4 doc: Islam – The Untold Story. I don’t understand why Muslims regard it as offensive.

The reason why Muslims are offended by the Tom Holland documentry is that Islamic doctrine holds that the Koran was, in effect, dictated by Allah, and is, was and always will be perfect and complete. The Holland thesis is that, after doing textual analysis, the Koran was in its early days repeatedly edited, with bits added, removed and changed.

Similar anysis of the Bible was done (largely by German scholars) in the 18th Century, but Judaeism and Christianity (other than some minority groups) are less concerned with the literal truth of the Bible.

45. Churm Rincewind

@ Just Visiting (39): Thanks for your thoughtful and considered reply. I’ve taken your advice, and googled “anti-semitic tv”. The results are indeed shocking.

46. Churm Rincewind

@ Just Visiting (39): Thanks for your thoughtful and considered reply. I’ve taken your advice, and googled “anti-semitic tv”. The results are indeed shocking.

The general point I was trying to make was that I applaud the attempts by both the Egyptian and US Governments to downplay the situation in order, presumably, to restrain over-reaction. And it seemed to me that some of your remarks erred on the inflammatory side rather than the conciliatory.

@ Churm , JV,

Of course the irony is that Islam and Judaism are both Semitic religions.

The Holland thesis is that, after doing textual analysis, the Koran was in its early days repeatedly edited, with bits added, removed and changed.

I watched this last night and my interpretation was that the Islamic doctrine has the same substantive basis in reality as does the tooth fairy.

“the Islamic doctrine has the same substantive basis in reality as does the tooth fairy.”

That is only because you don’t have faith in its sacred reality. With the neceassary faith, there isn’t a problem. Of course, if you then start to doubt reasons for holding that faith, you will be declared an apostate and killed painfully, which is a rather convincing reason for not starting to question the faith.

@44. MarkAustin: “Similar anysis of the Bible was done (largely by German scholars) in the 18th Century, but Judaeism and Christianity (other than some minority groups) are less concerned with the literal truth of the Bible.”

There is continuous search for original/early source (eg interpreting the Dead Sea scrolls, particularly relevant to Jews and Christians) and to question previous literal translations (what did that Greek word mean at that time?).

I accept your proposition that mainstream Christians and Jews “are less concerned with the literal truth of the Bible” and that we live together, the whole kaboodle, because we are tolerant. But if the early sources of New or Old Testament told believers to be intolerant, we would be up a creek. Literalists interpreting the OT already cause enough problems.

Charlieman: “that we live together, the whole kaboodle, because we are tolerant”

We didn’t used to be. According to respected history texts, at least 287 heretic Christians were burned at the stake in Mary Tudor’s mercifully short reign of 1553-58 as she sought to restore Catholicism to her realm – she was popularly known as Bloody Mary in her life time.

The number of Huguenots slaughtered in the St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre in France in August 1572 runs into thousands – and thousands of Huguenot asylum seekers fled to Britain in consequence of that and the continuing religious civil wars in France in the following century.

In 1588, a Spanish Armada sought to invade England with a commission from the Pope to restore Catholicism. Fortunately, the Armada fleet was beaten off and then mostly sunk with the help of a fortuitous storm at sea. In November 1605, Guy Fawkes and fellow conspirators were preparing to blow up Parliament at the state opening:

“Guy Fawkes could have changed the face of London if his 1605 plot had not been foiled, explosion experts have said.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3240135.stm

There was a Thirty Years War in Europe 1618-48 as sovereign states invaded neighbouring states to insall the correct brand of Christianity to save the citizens from eternal damnation.

The Gordon Riots in London 1780 amounted to an anti-Catholic pogrom – it was ended when troops fired on the rioters. It took the combined persuasive powers of the Duke of Wellington, as PM in the Lords, and Robert Peel, as the Conservative leader in the Commons, to push through the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829, an act which extended civil right to Catholics equivalent to those of members of the Church of England.

Charles Bradlaugh was elected to Parliament in 1880 but not allowed to take his seat because he wanted to affirm the oath of allegiance instead of taking the prescribed religious oath, which he said was meaningless. See the Wikipedia entry.

Well said Bob B
Islam is no different, Just a younger religion. ALL of the world’s religions, with the (possible) exception of Buddhism, have indulged in their own heresy purges. Maybe in decades or centuries Islam will be as apparently tolerant as Anglican Christianity, but then, maybe not, as there will allways be someone interperiting their particular version literally, which means others who don’t are apostates, heretics etc.

I hope the apparent tolerance in this country stays so, but the intolerant meme is ever so potent…

@51. Bob B: “We didn’t used to be. According to respected history texts, at least 287 heretic Christians were burned at the stake..”

I do not follow your argument. The fact that some of our descendents were evil delivers little evidence and zero culpability.

Clarlieman: “I do not follow your argument. The fact that some of our descendents were evil delivers little evidence and zero culpability.”

Our present tolerance of multiple religious sects and faiths follows centuries of extreme intolerance. I’ve heard it said that since Muhammed lived c. 600 years after Christ, it is not that surprising that Muslims have not yet achieved our degree of tolerance. In Northern Ireland, the troubles there arise out of disputes over the outcome of the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 between the rival armies of King James II and William of Orange, who was invited by Parliament in 1688 to accept the throne of Britain and rule with his wife Mary, daughter of James.

A lot of the killing that is presently going on in Islamic countries is not in respect of attacks on western embassies and western connected fast food emporia but between different Islamic sects.

Islam has yet to experience its Reformation.

55. the a&e charge nurse

[53] ‘I do not follow your argument. The fact that some of our descendents were evil delivers little evidence and zero culpability’ – ask yourself what has changed since then.

Religious zealots thrive on ignorance – the more we know about the world, the harder it is to sustain man made stories about omnipotent beings, and especially the methods used to silence anybody who disagreed with such arrant nonsense.

Of course we still have echoes of this mindset evident in the likes of the Rushdie affair or the danish cartoons – hell some are still arguing that C4 promo events should be subject to the whims of religious nutters.

Bob B’s comments are spot on.

A news report from the 6 July:

Police have warned people planning to attend a major Orange Parade in Glasgow at the weekend that sectarian and anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.
Up to 8,000 marchers will pass through the city centre on Saturday for the Grand County Orange Order Parade.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18736348

That parade is about celebrating the outcome of the Battle of the Boyne in July 1690. Speak to folk walking around Trafalgar Sq in London and ask them when was the Battle of Trafalgar and most won’t have a clue. That battle, which destroyed the combined fleets of France and Spain, established the supremacy of the Royal Navy and made Britain the superpower of the 19th century. At the time of Britain’s first census in 1801, Britain’s population was about half that of France.

57. Truth's spokesman

So the anger is that this film says Mohammed (not THE prophet either…he’s no one’s Prophet other than Muslims) was….

A Womaniser…..MUSLIMS AGREE he had many wives. So?
A Pedophile…….MUSLIMS AGREE he had sex with a child. So?
A Fraud…………..MUSLIMS AGREE he talked to God! So unless these cavemen can produce God….I say the the fraud accusation stands!

So actually this film is not only accurate, but Muslims agree with the content!
So why the (typically) murderous rage from these un-evolved knuckle-draggers?

ANY religion SHOULD be mocked and ridiculed! It’s what reformed Christianity. It’s why we no longer execute witches (unlike Saudi Arabia).
Liberals were ONCE at the forefront of challenging religion…Now they (YOU) grovel in appeasement.

58. Truth's spokesman

And how dare anyone blame attacks & killings on anyone BUT the attackers & killers!
It would be UNDERSTANDABLE if Monty Python had been killed?

When Monty Python made a film that enraged (mainly white) Christians, no one died, no buildings burnt & Liberals defended freedom to make film….

When another film is made that enrages (mainly non-white) Muslims, PEOPLE DIE, BUILDINGS BURN & LIBERALS ATTACK FREEDOM TO MAKE FILM & DEFEND KILLERS!

If we had balls the response to Libyan Embassy attacks would be to make 500 MORE films about damn Mohhamad.

People aren’t shocked when Islam kills people over a film, a book, or a drawing..People are shocked if it DOESN’T kill people over a film, a book, or a drawing!

I truly hope some Islamist organisation like CAIR take the film to court in America. Let them hang themselves;
Cross examination will end it instantly-

“Did your Prophet have many wives”?
YES.
“Did your Prophet have sex with a 9 yr old girl”?
YES.
“So a film that says he’s womaniser & pedophile is actually right
, & you admit it it’s right yourself”!?
ER…..YES.

Case closed

59. So Much For Subtlety

I’m publishing the video not because it has any artistic merit, nor because I want to deliberately offend people, nor because this is an issue about free speech.

Sorry but it is an issue about free speech, whether you like it or not. Some homicidal maniacs want to kill people in an effort to stop these sort of thing being made. Either you are for that or you are not.

I’m publishing it to illustrate what an epic effort at deliberate trolling it is. This is no different to people who want to make films or write articles telling ‘the truth‘ about the Holocaust or 9/11.

Except the historical Muhammed is a historical issue that can and should be debated. Facts established. He did marry a six year old and have erotic dreams about her before that for instance. At least the tradition says he did. The Holocaust happened. Denying it is not a historical issue but a political one. But still, people should be free to make films about ‘the truth’ regarding these events.

It has to be seen to be believed it is not out to expose any truth or convince anyone. It is incoherent, idiotic and juvenile. It simultaneously portrays the Prophet Mohammed as gay and sexually abusing women in the next scene. It makes NO sense.

Which is irrelevant.

60. the a&e charge nurse

‘I’m publishing the video not because it has any artistic merit, nor because I want to deliberately offend people, nor because this is an issue about free speech’ – so I presume you are most interested in the motives of the film maker, which presumably was to bait religious zealots – mind you, it doesn’t take much to bait religious zealots, does it (as Rushdie, danish cartoonists, and C4 PR event organisers can all attest to).

Unfortunately some religious zealots seldom deviate from their posture of perma-outrage – so much so that their response to a silly film is to threaten people, or even kill them.

“‘I’m publishing the video not because it has any artistic merit, nor because I want to deliberately offend people, nor because this is an issue about free speech”

Much the same can be said of the pics of the topless Duchess of Cambridge. However, those pics and the ensuing row have performed the invaluable functions from the government’s POV of filling the news gap left from the ending of the London Olympics while diverting public attention from the double-dip recession and the government’s failure to get the economy moving again.

62. Truth Spokesman

Hey Sunny…instead off yet more EDL hyperbole (bodycount still zero) why no report about everyday followers of ‘The Religion of Peace’ giving their children “Behead those who insult the prophet” signs to hold??!!!

I GUARANTEE if those had been an EDL parents giving their children “Behead Muslims” signs to hold YOU’D BE RUUNING 10 ARTICLES A DAY!

63. Truth Spokesman

And I notice (like always) your ‘writer’ speaks of condemning deaths of INNOCENTS. Very important distinction that….as Muslims have very narrow definition of innocent.

Does your writer condemn deaths of those they and their intolerant religion DON’T consider innocent? Like the film MAKERS?

Answers to all these questions appreciated but most certainly not expected!

64. Just Visiting

Bob B

that’s 2 posts in a row in this thread that are totally off topic.

Please consider that it may only take you seconds to write something but the cost to the LC community is causing the whole readership of this thread to waste time reading something irrelevant.

It is selfish of you to put LC readership to that effort.

JV: “that’s 2 posts in a row in this thread that are totally off topic.”

In your opinion but not mine.

Comparisons between that crass movie about Muhammed, along with the consequences that has inflicted on unconnected bystanders, and the behaviour and motivation of proponents of other causes and faiths seems to me to be an illuminating exercise even if you don’t agree.

We have learned from the news that the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi was pre-planned by heavily armed Jihadists to commemorate the anniversary of 9/11, using popular outrage and rioting over the Muhammed movie as a cover.

In that context, it’s relevant and instructive to look into the roots of and motivation for similar expressions of popular outrage in Britain to see what we might learn. The ostensible causes of popular outrage may serve the purpose of covering other intentions, such is the art of political spin in these times.

66. Just Visiting

Bob B

> Islam has yet to experience its Reformation.

A common misconception Bob.

In reality, Islam already had it’s reformation- way back when the Hadith where catalogued: thousands were destroyed and the remaining ones kept as authoritative.

Christianity’s Reformation meant throwing out the practises of the church then if they did not match up to Jesus life + teachings from the New Testament (newly available translated into people’s own languages).

But Islam has for 1000 years been ‘back at it’s roots’ in terms of having Mohammed as the Ideal Man -and everything he did as uncriticisable: such as:
* beheading prisoners
* marrying a 9 year old
* being a polygamist
* sentencing the women caught in adultery to death.
* advocating the death penalty for apostasy

The New Testament has Jesus doing none of these things.

JV: “A common misconception Bob.”

It’s demonstrable nonsense that Islam doesn’t need a Reformation. Most of the wholesale killing going on in Islamic countries at present is between different Islamic sects.

“The New Testament has Jesus doing none of these things.”

The Jews don’t accept the authority of the New Testament and believe their private covenant with their ethnic deity entitles them to continue building illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. The intolerance of those Evangelistic Christian movements harks back to the Old Testament and has little sympathy for compassionate sentiments expressed in the New Testmant. Besides that, I don’t go along with this prescription from the New Testament, Matthew chp.25:

’28 Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Despite the New Testament, Europe endured Thirty Years of War 1618-48 as sovereign states invaded neighbouring states so as to install what some sovereign ruler regarded as the correct brand of Christianity up to the Peace of Westfalia of 1648 – and Tony Blair doesn’t go along with that.

68. Truth Spokesman

You mobile version keeps crashing, so it’s as useless and shit as your entire site…and indeed existence. Quislings & appeasers.

69. Just Visiting

Bob B

So you’re using the phrase ‘reformation of Islam’ to mean ‘Islam to become more like I’d like them to be’.

Rather than ‘reform itself from within by getting back to the roots of it’s Holy Book’ – which is what the Christian Reformation was about in a nutshell.

You talk about less violence by Muslims – but ignored my earlier post which shows that Mohammed did and said so many violent things.

So that unless Islam is able to change and no longer have Mohammed as the main prophet and Ideal Man to be respected and emulated, then what chance for them to become less violent?

Can you imagine any scenarios in which Islam will be able to ‘demote’ Mohammed down from his current status in the religion ? I’d be interested to hear your detail thoughts on that, in terms of Islamic theology and history.

To clarify – It’s your specific thoughts about Islam that matter here – not Judaism or Christianity; as we all agree that a Christian reformation did happen and was a good thing from a liberal pespective: so we are all agreeing that in theory reformations of that type within a religion are possible.

The central issue is : given the specifics of Islamin theology and history – what kind of a reformation is possible / likely.

JV: You talk about less violence by Muslims – but ignored my earlier post which shows that Mohammed did and said so many violent things.

It’s a myth that Christianity isn’t violent. Christian institutions and followers have a long history of violence: the barbarity of the medieval Crusades; the official persecution of supposed heretics leading to their painful executions, usually by burning; the St Bartholomew’s Day massacre of Huguenots in August 1572; the Spanish Armada in 1588; the attempt by Guy Fawkes and fellow conspirators to blow up Parliament in 1605; Galileo sentenced to permanent house arrest for publicising his theory that the universe was heliocentric, not geocentric; the Spanish Inquisition and its Autos de Fe; the Thirty Years War 1618-48; the Massachusetts and Pendle witch trials; the Gordon riots in London in 1780 etc etc. In 1880, Charles Bradlaugh, a declared secularist, was prevented from taking his seat in Parliament because he refused to take a religious oath of allegiance, which he regarded as meaningless. Besides all that, we have the socially divisive message in the Christian parable of the talents in Matthew 25.

Most of the killing going on in the Middle East and Asia at present is being perpetrated by Muslims upon other Muslims.

Whoever this Bacile is, he is not a jew. Only someone who isn’t familiar with the Jewish community’s culture and how protective they are of anti-Semetic attacks would use rhetoric like that. What’s more, does that film look like it was made for $5 mil? It looks more like it was made for $5.

Someone has spread this rumor and those who are incapable of seeing how ridiculous it is will fall for it.

72. Truth's Spokesman.

I see the coward Sunny, the coward, quisling and hypocrite, avoids all my questions above.

What? Too busy dragging up more non-stories about non-murdering EDL? Not going to answer my question about your lack of coverage/DISGUST at children holding up “Behead those that insult The Prophet” signs all over the web recently?

NO comeback to the ‘HISTORICAL’ FACTS AS APPROVED BY MUSLIMS truth that the film’s portrayal of Jew Slaughtering/Insane nutbag/Child loving Mo is accurate?

Nothing?

Too busy ensuring your ‘up Islam’s fetid arse’ stance is 100% in place by checking your crap writers put ‘PBUH’ after any mention of this ‘prophet’ of theirs?

73. Chaise Guevara

Who the hell talks about “quislings” in this day and age?

First of all, the movie, with its unknown actors and poor production quality, does not appear to have cost anything approaching $5 million. Searches of public records — including court, voting, telephone or property databases — show no one named Sam Bacile in California.

Second, the claims that this “person” is Jewish is extremely unlikely. No one uses that kind of rhetoric unless they are extremely unfamiliar with the culture of the Jewish community and how protective they are against anti-Semitic attacks. What this “person” has done is play into an anti-Semitic fantasy


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
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    […] Sunny Hundal has exactly the right phrase to describe the film at the heart of this row: […]

  2. libbymary

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/Ce4t0y9q via @libcon

  3. libbymary

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/Ce4t0y9q via @libcon

  4. Grzegorz Wapi?ski

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/QRAdcZFs via @libcon

  5. Grzegorz Wapi?ski

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/QRAdcZFs via @libcon

  6. Rafiq Richard

    http://t.co/6lPMQvyH WORDS FAIL ME… http://t.co/JsXYqqrU

  7. Rafiq Richard

    http://t.co/6lPMQvyH WORDS FAIL ME… http://t.co/JsXYqqrU

  8. Dafydd

    @libcon This:- http://t.co/kXLDfn8Z (Via @LibCon)

  9. Dafydd

    @libcon This:- http://t.co/kXLDfn8Z (Via @LibCon)

  10. Dafydd

    @robinince This:- http://t.co/kXLDfn8Z (Via @LibCon)

  11. Dafydd

    @robinince This:- http://t.co/kXLDfn8Z (Via @LibCon)

  12. wbmedia

    Struggling with how bad the Mohammed film is – designed to cause offence best ignored as atrocious stupidity http://t.co/kCGWRo8J

  13. wbmedia

    Struggling with how bad the Mohammed film is – designed to cause offence best ignored as atrocious stupidity http://t.co/kCGWRo8J

  14. Mark Aviano

    Mohammed film trailer that muslims are killing people over.. http://t.co/GS6pEoyG islam "the religion of peace" that can't take criticism.

  15. Mark Aviano

    Mohammed film trailer that muslims are killing people over.. http://t.co/GS6pEoyG islam "the religion of peace" that can't take criticism.

  16. Mark Carrigan

    This is just weird –> The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over http://t.co/MFngt7wr "Man + X = Islamic Terrorist"

  17. Mark Carrigan

    This is just weird –> The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over http://t.co/MFngt7wr "Man + X = Islamic Terrorist"

  18. Abdul-Azim Ahmed

    @AbdulAzim http://t.co/yVNc32QG

  19. Abdul-Azim Ahmed

    @AbdulAzim http://t.co/yVNc32QG

  20. Oscar Carlsson

    Mohammed film trailer that muslims are killing people over.. http://t.co/GS6pEoyG islam "the religion of peace" that can't take criticism.

  21. sunny hundal

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  22. Lorna Cooper

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  23. Liz McShane

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  24. AndreaUrbanFox ©

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over http://t.co/JhiS8RjW via @libcon Is this it? *facepalm*

  25. Illuminated Slave

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

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    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/8k827mTB via @libcon

  27. Sikander Hayat

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  28. Peter Anderson

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  29. Meena Bharadwa

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  30. Noxi

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  31. Farzana

    . @sunny_hundal nice short&sweet piece on THAT film! And the Charlie Beckett piece is very good! http://t.co/BMo4v8vi

  32. Eldred J Coke

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  33. Anthony Leahy

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  34. Nafeez Ahmed

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  35. Gods & Monsters

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  36. Adil Wainwright

    Producer of anti-Islam film: "We've reached the people we want to reach" Yeah, extremists http://t.co/6kagfO0l My view: http://t.co/Sd5X9UUy

  37. LondonLime

    Great phrase from Sunny Hundal "“it’s an epic attempt at deliberate trolling” http://t.co/bNohgc05

  38. Publicity seeking extremists to protest at US Embassy London | Liberal Conspiracy

    […] like moths to a flame, extremist Muslims are scrabbling to jump on the bandwagon of the anti-Mohammed film trailer some far-right Americans uploaded to […]

  39. Convicted for a Facebook rant: where is free speech now? | Liberal Conspiracy

    […] another aspect to this, related to the other big free expression story of the moment: the “Innocence of Muslims” film which has been cited as the cause of rioting in Libya that led to the death of the US […]

  40. Martin Decker

    The film Libyans and Egyptians are rioting over | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/oZ28NyG4 via @libcon

  41. sunny hundal

    @MaryTracy people in pain, literally, because extremists like to get riled up. As for the video… http://t.co/yVNc32QG





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