To be honest I don’t think Mandelson misunderstands the issues. He’s an intelligent guy who was speaking quite deliberately.

He is just whipping up anti-Syriza feeling. That is what people on the right of Labour do. They want the Greeks to be good little boys and girls and accept their austerity medicine.

Regardless of the fact that it isn’t working.

I don’t think anyone would trust the BBC with political reporting after this: http://andreasmoser.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/research-at-the-bbc/

The issues go way beyond Greece, as the people of Ireland, Spain and Portugal will tell you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHtNlj1JbLg

Andrew Marr, the BBC and Peter Mandelson, hardly a combination to inspire trust and confidence.
If my life span was double that of Noah’s grandfather it would be too short to waste 2 minutes on 2 of the above.

Isn’t it at least felt that a vote for Syriza might be more likely to lead to a return to the drachma? Reading this

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/326839

makes one wonder whether the writer actually wants Greeks to vote for Syriza!

Lying about what Syriza stand for is necessary, if they win the election the British government and the EU may support violence to overthrow their government and install a leader they want.

If democracy gives the wrong answer, then it’ll be time to get rid of democracy.

Mandelson and Marr aside surely when funding of the Greek state stops stark choices for the country will be the only path, with a default the only alternative. One could argue that the EU is bluffing as has been done but this is a very risky strategy and what more can be achieved by taking this risk.

The Greek state has been out of control for decades and needs serious restructuring, any party or person who argues otherwise is doing a disservice to the many hard working Greeks who supply the only hope for the future. The only discussion on the table should be the speed of the restructuring.

Creditors shouldn’t get a penny.

@7 David Morphy

‘The Greek state has been out of control for decades’

Indeed an exact date can be put on when control was lost, July 1974.

In the event of a Syriza victory it may be necessary to return to the strong rule of right thinking liberals that Greece enjoyed prior to 1974.

@ben2,
are you implying that David Morphy would want a return to the Fascist Military Dictatorship of Greece’s past, which run up dodgy gigabuck debts with various banks in the late 60′s by any chance?
The same debts hung over the people of Greece today?

@ 10

I thought he was.

When he says that the Greek state has been out of control for decades I thought he was referring to the fall of the Colonels in 1974. What else could he have been referring to?

Tim Worstall, for instance, discussed a military coup in Greece last November, though he did amend the article to say he’s not suggesting or supporting a coup, just discussing how good a solution it would be.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/26/the-real-greek-solution-a-military-coup/

If the Troika don’t get what they want, I’d expect them to look at turning the screws very hard on the Greeks. We already see a lot of propaganda about how lazy and feckless the Greek people are, and how corrupt their government is, and a lot of people have totally bought into it and no amount of facts will sway them.

If the Greek election doesn’t give the right result, expect the EU to try and force another, or put together some sort of deal with the losers that they get to run things.

Allowing socialists to win a democratic election just isn’t an option for a lot of people.

The BBC has consistently reported this election as if it were a referendum on whether Greece should stay or leave the Eurozone. In this it echoes the banks which (a) caused the crisis and (b) are insisting on the austerity policies which fund the loans they receive from Germany. In this the BBC is completely part of the propaganda exercise which has operated since 2007, and which has been targeted specifically on destroying social democracy and asserting the absolute control of the global corporate elite.

With the results in it’s victory for the liberal New Democracy party. If they ally with the Independent Greeks and the Golden Dawn they could form a majority government.

Interestingly New Democracy are the party who got Greece into the deficit mess it’s in, and when PASOK beat them in 2010 and it became clear how much had been spent they were screwed and paid a huge electoral price for it.

Bear in mind in Greece the party with the highest percentage of the vote gets 50 bonus seats, so New Democracy on 29.53% get 128 seats vs Syriza on 27.12% who get 72 seats.

PASOK have said they won’t join a coalition Syriza isn’t part of and New Left may go the same way, but it leaves the way open for a Liberal/Fascist majority government if New Democracy can secure the support of Golden Dawn and Independent Greeks.

Independent Greeks are an anti-austerity party (but with a right wing platform) and Golden Dawn are actual Nazis, so there may have to be significant horse trading.

Good result for the Troika, the EU and Liberal capitalism, as Syriza were beaten and additional measures weren’t required.

Might not be so good for immigrants, refugees, homosexuals and trade unionists.

“Creditors shouldn’t get a penny.”

It’s all very well saying that, but it ignores that if Greece is considered a terrible risk, no will lend to them any more. No one is obliged to to. The attitude of those urging default is tantamount to saying that one refuses to allow the fact that it is tipping it down with rain prevent one getting a suntan. It is denial of reality.

What you’re in fact suggesting is that the creditors, which are both banks and other nations, (a) shouldn’t get any of their money lent so far back, and (b) should lend Greece more. Why on earth would they do that?

Looks like Merkel won. No good can come of this.

The other thing is that UK banks, secure in the knowledge that whatever happened they’d get bailed out, have increased their exposure to Greek debt. Admittedly they’ve done this in the knowledge that taxpayers, whether Greek or German or British, would make good any losses that they made, but a Greek government that will kowtow to the EU means we won’t have to bail out our banks again for a little while.

@Ben 2, how much of a little while, months, years decades?

6. Ben2

Lying about what Syriza stand for is necessary, if they win the election the British government and the EU may support violence to overthrow their government and install a leader they want.

Unfortunately for the Greeks what Syriza wants is irrational. They cannot expect to steal German money and have the Germans continue to pay for their luxurious idle lifestyle. There are consequences to a default. So it is not unreasonable for Mandelson to assume that the price of not playing by the rules is being kicked out of the club. But then if Syriza was sane they would be demanding an end to the Euro.

If democracy gives the wrong answer, then it’ll be time to get rid of democracy.

You know, I don’t recall you objecting when the EU tried to bully the Austrians out of their democratically elected government. Nor when the EU tried the same with the Hungarians. You are only now noticing the EU has contempt for democracy when it does not produce the answer it wants? How many times did the Irish have to vote for the Euro?

Ben2

Indeed an exact date can be put on when control was lost, July 1974.

In the event of a Syriza victory it may be necessary to return to the strong rule of right thinking liberals that Greece enjoyed prior to 1974.

Indeed. The Colonels left Greece relatively debt-free, with a strong balance of payments surplus, a low budget deficit and a strong currency. Whatever else you could say about them, they could run a proper economy. A return to military rule is not the worst thing that could happen in Greece.

Dissident

The same debts hung over the people of Greece today?

There is no connection whatsoever between Greece’s present debts – which are recent and the product of corrupt vote buying – and the military junta. Which did not borrow large amounts of money from anyone. The debts of today are a result of Pasok and New Democracy spending German money at German interest rates.

Ben2

If the Troika don’t get what they want, I’d expect them to look at turning the screws very hard on the Greeks. We already see a lot of propaganda about how lazy and feckless the Greek people are, and how corrupt their government is, and a lot of people have totally bought into it and no amount of facts will sway them.

Because the Greeks are feckless and their government is corrupt. Those facts won’t change.

If the Greek election doesn’t give the right result, expect the EU to try and force another, or put together some sort of deal with the losers that they get to run things.

As UKIP has been telling you for some time. Now you’re listening?

Allowing socialists to win a democratic election just isn’t an option for a lot of people.

Nor allowing Haidar and his friends to do so in Austria. Something I don’t recall you complaining about at all.

Ben2

PASOK have said they won’t join a coalition Syriza isn’t part of and New Left may go the same way, but it leaves the way open for a Liberal/Fascist majority government if New Democracy can secure the support of Golden Dawn and Independent Greeks.

Then the blame would fall on Pasok for allowing the Fascists into government.

Might not be so good for immigrants, refugees, homosexuals and trade unionists.

Then the blame would fall on Pasok for being feckless and irresponsible.

Still it matters not one little bit. Syriza is a party of former unrepentant Communists. It is just as vile as Golden Dawn. One of them is going to be in government if Pasok and New Democracy cannot do a deal with someone else. The question is which one is least damaging for Greece. That would be Golden Dawn on the whole.

Dissident
@Ben 2, how much of a little while, months, years decades?

Well the liquidity fund of £60 billion announced last week is totally not a bail out, but some sort of cushion to have money circulating because banks can’t trust each other.

In the medium term the financial system may all come crashing down, if Greece, which is 2% of the European economy, can potentially destroy the Euro, then what happens if Italy or France run into trouble?

The break up of the Euro seems inevitable, and when it happens we’ll see a global recession. What measures are taken to get through that we’ll have to see, but people will fight tooth and nail against reforming the financial sector to increase it’s stability and limit the amount of economic destruction it can cause during busts, because it will limit the peaks during booms.

Mandelson is poison. How Labour allows him continued membership is a mystery.

18. So Much For Subtlety
‘If democracy gives the wrong answer, then it’ll be time to get rid of democracy.’

You know, I don’t recall you objecting when the EU tried to bully the Austrians out of their democratically elected government. Nor when the EU tried the same with the Hungarians. You are only now noticing the EU has contempt for democracy when it does not produce the answer it wants? How many times did the Irish have to vote for the Euro?

Did this website have articles about it I commented on?

You’ve got to bear in mind that other people have things to do with their time.

Strangely you gave exactly the opinions I expected you to give regarding the rule of the Colonels and Golden Dawn.

It’s the uniforms isn’t it? You just can’t resist a good uniform.

The question isnt Greece and the EU, the true question is just how long can they continue to print money to keep this fiasco called the euro alive? Romney said yesterday he gets in and the currency swaps between the EU and America is over………..No printed dollars to keep the socialist experiment of the UN alive any longer. But besides that the entire world is going to completely collpase into a world depression and There isnt one thing they can do to prevent it……..Printing money keeps the hangman at bay but only for so long………It simply digs the grave deeper.

Mandelson is being paid a handsome EU pension – he is working for the EU.

People such as he don’t give a damn how much misery is inflicted on a country.

I agree the BBC are being very simplistic and misleading with this reporting of the situation.

I think the BBC’s probably correct that Syriza’s election would have led to Greece being thrown out of the EU very quickly*, regardless of Syriza’s claims that it wants to stay in the Euro and EU – but I realise that’s really a very debatable point and the BBC certainly shouldn’t be presenting it as an undisputed certainty.

* I’m not saying I disagree with the theory behind Syriza’s policies – but Merkel and her allies certainly do, and I think Syriza are either being naive or deliberately misleading when they claim to have some way of changing that.

That isn’t the only thing that the BBC did: they also suggested that SYRIZA was “anti-European” by claiming that New Democracy (what happened to Old Democracy?) and PASOK were “pro-European”. This is deliberately misleading stuff.

Two points.

First on leaving or being forced out of the Euro. It cannot be stated too many times that there is no mechanism for forcing a country to leave the Euro. The Euro was made as diffcult to get out of as possible, and to force a country to leave would need a treaty ammendment, which that country could veto.

Secondly. on listiening to any EU pensioner (such as Kinnock or mandleson) you must always bear in mind that their pension is conditional on continuing public support for the EU.

“It’s the uniforms isn’t it? You just can’t resist a good uniform.”

Too true ben2; whether its Haider, Pinochet, Le Pen, Golden Dawn : So Much for Treblinka never saw a Brownshirt whioch didn’t…you know…”excite” him. The latent quasi-orgasmic thrill in his “prose” is tangible.