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What the outraged coverage of Pakistani sex gangs is really about


8:55 am - May 10th 2012

by Flying Rodent    


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Why the media focus on race in the “child grooming” trial?, Sunny want to know.

Well, indeed. You didn’t see a lot of focus on race in this case from 2009, nor in this one from 2010, neither of which is any less horrifying than the one that ended in Bradford.

Evidence as presented by Ceops suggests that this kind of crime is more prevalent among Asian men, but you seldom hear angry demands that, say, alcohol-related violence be referred to as a white man’s pastime.  Up here in Scotland, I’d be surprised if ethnic minorities account for even one percent of violent and/or sexual offences.

Race is presented so centrally in the Bradford trial because it has an attribute that the others lacked, i.e. an opportunity to pin the blame on an unpopular bugbear and then indulge in a bit of moral grandstanding.

From the get-go, every time this case has appeared in court, it’s been accompanied by a rash of articles and reports decrying an all-pervading political correctness that somehow prevents their authors talking about race and sexual abuse – even while their authors are explicitly talking about race and sexual abuse. 

In fact, there have been numerous reports about apparent links between crime and race, specifically relating to this case, in the Mail, the Times and the Guardian; on Channel Four
news and its accompanying website; in the Telegraph and on vast array of other news websites.

I’d contend that the target of these pieces isn’t Asian men, as has been darkly hinted today.  Nor is it Muslims or any specific minority, and it isn’t even child abusers as such.

The target is the British public, and more specifically its perpetually offended reflex of victimhood, injustice and persecution, which is the vein you absolutely must hit if you want to sell newspapers.

In this, it’s no different at all to stories about women having a billion kids so they can claim council houses or Britain’s Got Talent contestants claiming disability allowance, both with the assistance of our overweening culture of soft-touch blah blah whatever.

Both give the reader 1) indefensible villains to villify; 2) a context of your-money-funded villain-coddling to rail against and 3) a very personal sense of wounded outrage and resentment to nurse and stroke.

All-white child abuse rings don’t trip the right switches or spark the same emotional response, although their crimes are equally heinous.

Asian men abusing kids, though – that can easily be reconciled into a pre-existing freakout.

That means making race a critical factor, where its relevance is debatable, and pretending to be terrified of some non-existent, never-occurring Vengeance Of Tha PC Brigade. It is rarely about the victims; it is simply about selling more papers.


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About the author
Flying Rodent is a regular contributor and blogs more often at: Between the Hammer and the Anvil. He is also on Twitter.
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Reader comments


1. jane alexander

Hmm. This neede reporting. I don’t think it’s about hits on the internet.

But again, the victims have not been given a voice. The best reporting came from the Manchester Evening Post who interviewed one of the victims. Anyone genuinely interested in this case should read it.

2. Torquil Macneil

“All-white child abuse rings don’t trip the right switches or spark the same emotional response, although their crimes are equally heinous.”

Really? You think that the tabloid press or its readership is blase about organised child abuse crimes unless they appear to have a racial motivation? I don’t think you can read the red tops very often.

Would the Rochdale scandal not have caught fire if a gang of white men had been targeting exclusively Asian children? Does anybody believe that? And what would LC be saying about a police force that dismissed the complaints of one of the girls in such a case? Do you really believe that race would not have entered into it? Bleurgh!

3. So Much For Subtlety

In this, it’s no different at all to stories about women having a billion kids so they can claim council houses or Britain’s Got Talent contestants claiming disability allowance, both with the assistance of our overweening culture of soft-touch blah blah whatever.

Yeahbutno. Because there is one big difference – this story has a whole bunch of victims. Teenage girls who were repeatedly gang raped. That makes it a little different from relatively-victimless crimes like housing benefit fraud.

All-white child abuse rings don’t trip the right switches or spark the same emotional response, although their crimes are equally heinous.

I don’t know how old you are, but I remember the Satanic Sexuak Abuse panic of the 1980s. So I think you’re wrong. Go back and look at the papers. It did trip the right switches and sparked similar emotional responses. As does the on going saga of Catholic child abuse.

The bottom line here is that the police did not investigate because they knew they would be attacked for being racist. And they were right. If there is a flood of articles it is because people like the author throwing accusations of racism kept everyone silent for so long. Now the dam has broken everyone wants to say what they have kept bottled up.

These men chose to abuse girls not because of race, but because they believe that girls are worthless, and because they could.

One of the girls went to the police four years ago and she wasn’t believed.

This happens because some men choose to abuse girls.

5. So Much For Subtlety

4. sianushka

These men chose to abuse girls not because of race, but because they believe that girls are worthless, and because they could.

Notice that none of those are exclusive categories. Indeed there is every reason to think they all strongly overlap.

The only question to be answered here is why, when a complaint was made in 2008, no action was taken by the CPS and no further investigation was carried out by the police.

Had that happened, many more girls would have avoided a horrific ordeal.

If the reason no action was taken related to concerns by the authorities regarding the racial element of the crime that is appalling. If it was because the police viewed the victims to be as worthless as did their rapists, that is equally appalling.

Whatever the reason, it needs to be investigated and reported.

But it is obtuse to deny that there are particular cultural elements at play when gangs of men of Pakistani origin groom young girls for sex. It is also obvious that the lack of integration of the Asian community in towns like Oldham and Rochdale is a key factor.

So those who condone or promote cultural apartheid are not blameless.

“This happens because some men choose to abuse girls.”

That’s (sadly) true but there is an extra dimension to the abuse in this particular case.

“Politicians, rights organisations and analysts say that the Afghan leader, by endorsing an edict calling women second-class citizens, has endangered hard-won progress in women’s rights since the Taliban fell from power in 2001.” [March 2012]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9130508/Hamid-Karzai-under-fire-on-Afghan-womens-rights.html

In several Islamic countries, chastity laws and social conventions are not symmetrical as between men and women.

8. flyingrodent

This neede reporting. I don’t think it’s about hits on the internet.

It does need reporting but it is also about hits on the internet. Let’s be clear – the Mail, for example, doesn’t quail in terror from any kind of backlash from a non-existent liberal tyranny, ever. It runs what it wants, when it wants, as strongly as it wants, every day of the year, unhindered by this dreaded left wing colossus..

And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter.

Let’s just say this straight up – when hundreds of hacks are all claiming to be terrified of a backlash that never, ever comes, you can conclude with almost 100% confidence that those hacks are talking bollocks.

Reporting on the Edinburgh paedophile ring* convicted in ’09 didn’t instantly devolve into a bunch of hacks ferociously declaring their determination to Stick It To The Man. Sure, there was entirely justified outrage and there were many calls for draconian sentences, which the accused duly got, and rightly so. But nobody tried to wank it up into a furious row about protection of paedophiles by some sinister left wing cabal enforcing some kind of PC omerta, because the culprits were white men and you can’t sell the public bullshit without hitting some very particular nerves first.

You think that the tabloid press or its readership is blase about organised child abuse crimes unless they appear to have a racial motivation?

Very, very obviously, I don’t believe that. There’s nothing in the post that suggests I believe it either.

I remember the Satanic Sexuak Abuse panic of the 1980s.

I do remember the Satanic abuse panic and would include it in the phenomenon we’re talking about, with the emphasis on the “panic” rather than the – was it non-existent? It was in the Orkney case – “Satanic abuse”.

*A case which was, if anything, even more horrifying than this one.

All-white child abuse rings don’t trip the right switches or spark the same emotional response

Yes. Britain is famed for its blase attitude towards paedophile rings when white people are the perpetrators. What’s that? Oh, yes, sorry, not blase – totally massive hysteria and over-reaction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/846832.stm

Child abuse is the number one, guaranteed emotional response generator in the UK. Race really isn’t a major factor in it either – the Baby P story got a pretty much identical reaction to the Victoria Climbie one. While I’m sure that there is a touch of schwart gevaar about some of the coverage of this issue, you’d need to be wilfully blind to suggest that that’s all there is to it. When nearly 90% of perpetrators of a specific category of offence are from a minority ethnic group, you need to do a bit more than cry “raaaacist” at people who point that out.

10. the a&e charge nurse

Sad fact is we only tend to manufactured outrage when certain sections of society suffer, not least because parts of our inner cities are now so bleak it hardly comes as a surprise when the next horror story emerges.

At least in this case there has been a belated justice of sorts, and those found guilty have been heavily punished.

Are the polis actually saying they were too frightened to investigate the allegations at the outset because those involved were muslims – or was it more a case of them writing down statements from the victims in invisible ink?

11. Chaise Guevara

@ 8 flyingrodent

“And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter. ”

While there are a few real practitioners (I had a manager once who solemnly insisted that “brainstorm” was offensive to epileptics and that we had to say “thought shower” instead), for the most part the so-called PC Brigade appears to be composed of right-wingers lying, sorry I mean guessing, about what the left-wing reaction to something will be.

Basically, the brigade is an army of spectres. Made of straw. This is probably why you STILL can’t get arrested for saying “blackboard”, despite what morons will tell you at length and despite how happy it would make the Daily Mail and its smelly brethren.

12. flyingrodent

The bottom line here is that the police did not investigate because they knew they would be attacked for being racist.

Do you know any policemen? I know lots and I smell bullshit. Some are good, professional people and some are arrogant and self-important, but none of them are shy and retiring, and I’ve met none that lacked the gumption to do their duty as and how they saw fit.

If there is a flood of articles it is because people like the author throwing accusations of racism kept everyone silent for so long.

That’s a hilarious comment and it backs up my points, not yours. Show me the accusation of racism in the post. Even the slowest, dimmest person would surely have to spot that the accusation is that the press are stoking controversy over some non-existent PC code of silence supposedly protecting sex offenders, motivated by a desire to shift more units.

Feel free to come back with a response once you’ve wiped the custard pie off your face.

These men chose to abuse girls not because of race, but because they believe that girls are worthless, and because they could.

A fair point – I’d say rapists in general believe that their victims are worthless. While it is possible that there’s an overlap here, it should be obvious that child abusers in particular exhibit this trait.

I think it’s entirely legitimate to ask whether there’s a particular cultural aspect to this abuse case, but it would be much better if that discussion was had in calm tones by people who stick to facts and measurable reality, rather by a bunch of dicks who intentionally turn it into an opportunity for moral grandstanding against a series of non-existent opponents who never, ever prevent them speaking their minds.

13. Planeshift

“While there are a few real practitioners ”

Remember Flintshire council and the renaming of spotted dick to spotted richard in the canteen?

That was purely bored staff trolling the Daily Mail.

14. Man on Clapham Omnibus

‘The target is the British public, and more specifically its perpetually offended reflex of victimhood, injustice and persecution, which is the vein you absolutely must hit if you want to sell newspapers.’

Or write in a left wing blog!

15. Torquil Macneil

“And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter.”

I don’t read the Mail or its equivalents and so, while I am sure this is true, it would be helpful to have an example or two from the many hundreds that are claimed in order to see exactly what is meant here.

16. Torquil Macneil

Tim J:

Thanks for ‘swart gevaar’!

17. TorquilMacneil

“And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter.”

I don’t read the Daily Mail or its equivalents and so, while I am sure this is true, it would be helpful to have an example or two from the many hundreds that are claimed in order to see exactly what is meant here.

18. Man on Clapham Omnibus

@12

‘Do you know any policemen? I know lots and I smell bullshit. Some are good, professional people and some are arrogant and self-important, but none of them are shy and retiring, and I’ve met none that lacked the gumption to do their duty as and how they saw fit.’

As in the case of Steven Lawrence for example or Daniel Morgan or a host of other cases where policemen are doing there duty. There is a social and cultural context in which everbody acts. Your knowlege of police personal unfortunately doesnt overide that.

‘The bottom line here is that the police did not investigate because they knew they would be attacked for being racist. And they were right. If there is a flood of articles it is because people like the author throwing accusations of racism kept everyone silent for so long. Now the dam has broken everyone wants to say what they have kept bottled up.’

I think that’s pretty much what Barnardos has come out with.

The exploitation of children is a common crime. The additional dimension that Asian’s were specifically targeting white girls because of there status of being white is clearly an issue and an indicator of how multiculturalism doesnt work.

19. Chaise Guevara

@ 13 Planeshift

“Remember Flintshire council and the renaming of spotted dick to spotted richard in the canteen?

That was purely bored staff trolling the Daily Mail.”

No, but thanks for the lol!

In my experience, genuine PC-gone-mad types are less often mouth-frothing campaigners, and more likely to be politically neutralish types who aren’t all that bright and enjoy learning Interesting Facts, so tell them that school pupils have been banned from singing Baa Baa Black Sheep and they’ll believe it simply because it’s more interesting if its true. They don’t seem all that common.

20. the a&e charge nurse

[11] “for the most part the so-called PC Brigade appears to be composed of right-wingers lying” – people are now being sent to jail for making ‘offensive comments’, in other words there is an approved view of the world and those who fail to adhere to it can be severely punished – we can’t blame the right wing for that, can we?

16 – No problem, and I knew the damn spelling was wrong…

The thing is, of course, that FR is on the right lines here. The image of “our” women being raped by the dark “other” is about the most potent nationalist/racialist message imaginable. In the past it has been exaggerated (or just invented) for just these reasons. You can look at Nazi imagery of Jews, or apartheid South Africa. It doesn’t even have to be as comic book extreme as that either – Jock McCulloch’s “Black Peril, White Virtue” is excellent on the same phenomenon in pre-war Southern Rhodesia (taking me back to my undergraduate days…).

This is extremely toxic stuff, and it needs to be handled very carefully. And it isn’t being. But that does cut both ways. The Daily Mail line of argument is dangerous, but so is denying any racial element, and saying it’s all about class and deprivation.

@8

“It does need reporting but it is also about hits on the internet. Let’s be clear – the Mail, for example, doesn’t quail in terror from any kind of backlash from a non-existent liberal tyranny, ever. It runs what it wants, when it wants, as strongly as it wants, every day of the year, unhindered by this dreaded left wing colossus..

And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter. ”

At the same time, if the Rochdale police first had a report of this ring in 2008, and did absolutely nothing about it for fear of being called racist – as is being reported – then there is an issue with PC, anti-racism, call it what you will (and don’t strawman it by laughing about “PC Brigade”) impeding the course of justice. I couldn’t give a stuff what the Mail thinks but if the people feel themselves hobbled from investigating paedophilia then there is a problem.

@8

“It does need reporting but it is also about hits on the internet. Let’s be clear – the Mail, for example, doesn’t quail in terror from any kind of backlash from a non-existent liberal tyranny, ever. It runs what it wants, when it wants, as strongly as it wants, every day of the year, unhindered by this dreaded left wing colossus..

And yet when we get to this case, suddenly they’re bookending their reports and opinion pieces with denunciations of the “PC Brigade”, vowing that they will not be prevented from telling us these “home truths”, even though the PC Brigade have very noticeably failed to prevent anyone, anywhere in the country, from giving their forthright opinion on the matter. ”

At the same time, if the Rochdale police first had a report of this ring in 2008, and did absolutely nothing about it for fear of being called racist – as is being reported – then there is an issue with PC, anti-racism, call it what you will (and don’t strawman it by laughing about “PC Brigade”) impeding the course of justice. I couldn’t give a stuff what the Mail thinks but if the police feel themselves hobbled from investigating paedophilia then there is a problem.

24. Chaise Guevara

@ 20 a&e

“people are now being sent to jail for making ‘offensive comments’”

Not that I’ve heard, unless you’re counting threats under that heading.

“we can’t blame the right wing for that, can we?”

No, assuming it’s happening, but we can blame specific rightwingers (and there are many) for constantly making up “PC gawn mad” opinions and attributing them to a nebulous left. Even if people ARE being locked up for offensiveness, which I doubt, it’s got little to do with pillocks who go around whining about Christmas being banned, does it?

25. the a&e charge nurse

[21] “but so is denying any racial element, and saying it’s all about class and deprivation” – it IS primarily about class and deprivation, at least from the point of view of the victims (who are always likely to be poor and deprived).

I’m sure there have always been gangs of men preying on women – some use economic advantage to get their way, others use intimidation and violence.

It’s possible that the police feared upsetting the local asian community but in any event the fact that this lot were muslims is neither here nor there.

26. Man on Clapham Omnibus

@21

This is extremely toxic stuff, and it needs to be handled very carefully. And it isn’t being. But that does cut both ways. The Daily Mail line of argument is dangerous, but so is denying any racial element, and saying it’s all about class and deprivation.

Handled to what end?

27. the a&e charge nurse

[24] surely you haven’t forgotten this, Chaise – the logical end point of political correctness?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992

28. TorquilMacneil

“This is extremely toxic stuff, and it needs to be handled very carefully. And it isn’t being. But that does cut both ways. The Daily Mail line of argument is dangerous, but so is denying any racial element, and saying it’s all about class and deprivation.2

I think that is about right. It doesn’t seem likely that men like this would have held back from abusing children about of some racial or religious scruple, it just so happens that in these circumstances it was easier for them to attack girls who were vulnerable and not present in their own social circles. But getting on a high horse about anyone noticing the racial aspect is absurd, and doing the usual FR hand waving routine coupled with the ‘look how much more evolved I am than the drooling masses’ grandstanding is no more helpful or honest than any Melanie Phillipsism. If the racial division were reversed this would be just as big a story, and LC and the Guardian would not be holding back from accusations of racism if the police had failed to act on the complaints of an Asian girl being systematically abused from an all-white gang of organised molesters.

29. TorquilMacneil

“It’s possible that the police feared upsetting the local asian community but in any event the fact that this lot were muslims is neither here nor there.”

Well, we just don’t yet know if it is here or there or not. It will certainly seem significant to those large sectors of the ‘Asian community’ who are not Muslim and who may feel themselves tarnished by being lumped in with the perpetrators in some way.

You didn’t see a lot of focus on race in this case from 2009, nor in this one from 2010, neither of which is any less horrifying than the one that ended in Bradford.

But was race actually an issue in either case? I don’t know anything about them, but a quick scan of the BBC articles suggests not. In the cases in Rochdale and elsewhere in the North West, where this is a persistent problem, race actually is an issue.

If a gang of white skinheads went around stomping on people of ethnic Pakistani origin, no one would fall for the line: it can’t be racist because white people also beat up other white people, or Asians other Asians, and here’s a couple of examples to jog your memory.

David Aaronovitch says what I say at 21, albeit with rather more style.

If you cannot call the thing what it is, then not only will you fail with policies aimed at stopping it, but you will also encourage the very forces that you most fear. It is precisely into the gap between the elite’s description of the world and the reality that people face that the extremist steps.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/davidaaronovitch/article3409739.ece

32. Chaise Guevara

@ 27 a&e

Oh yeah, forgot about Stacey. Fair enough, and I feel the same as you do about it, but it’s either an isolated case, or one of a small handful. And it happened WAY after all this “you can’t say blackboard” or “Birmingham banned Christmas” crap started, so it’s hardly an excuse.

PC does sometimes go mad, but most events I’ve seen newspapers use to make such claims have been ridiculously over-generalised and/or deliberately misrepresented.

Handled to what end?

In the media.

34. Man on Clapham Omnibus

@31 Tim

‘f you cannot call the thing what it is, then not only will you fail with policies aimed at stopping it……’

Perhaps you might like to tell us what it is?

It seems to me that with data suggesting ‘on street grooming’ is highly over represented by Asian gangs this could be associated with racism. However ,does merely selecting white kids suggest racism or opportunism , or could this be regarded as merely a cultural artifact associated with the wider issues of multiculturalism.

In any event, what are the policy responses I wonder

Perhaps you might like to tell us what it is?

Aaro’s your chap there.

So here are the bald facts about this specific kind of abuse. Men, many middle-aged and most of previous good character, and largely from one community, have been committing a particular series of sexual crimes almost entirely against young girls. Why? Almost certainly because of their attitudes towards women and sex.

@20 people are now being sent to jail for making ‘offensive comments’, in other words there is an approved view of the world and those who fail to adhere to it can be severely punished – we can’t blame the right wing for that, can we?

I can’t believe there hasn’t been more of an outcry from the left at the ridiculousness of things like the Liam Stacey case.

As for blaming the right – I don’t, but I don’t think coverage of stuff like this in the manner that the Daily Mail did actually helps

@22

if the Rochdale police first had a report of this ring in 2008, and did absolutely nothing about it for fear of being called racist – as is being reported

I don’t believe that for one second, fobbing off a rape victim based on perceived inadequacies of the victim, and by extension, the probably of obtaining a conviction, is not exactly uncommon among police forces throughout the nation. Convenient excuse is convenient excuse, in my book.

38. Abdul Abulbul Emir

Asian men abusing kids, though – that can easily be reconciled into a pre-existing freakout.

That means making race a critical factor, where its relevance is debatable, and pretending to be terrified of some non-existent, never-occurring Vengeance Of Tha PC Brigade. It is rarely about the victims; it is simply about selling more papers.

Up here in Scotland, I’d be surprised if ethnic minorities account for even one percent of violent and/or sexual offences.

Mrs A says

My goodness Abdul. Does Mr Rodent mean that this case wasn’t about Pakistani men abusing White girls after all ?

How could we have got it so wrong ?

Thank goodness for impartial observers like Mr Rat.

Peace

Mrs A adds that it is could that Mr Rat lives in Scotland and not in England where the matter is so much worse.

Here’s a post by Laban Tall (from last year) that puts what’s going on in the media at present in some kind of context. The actual post itself has a lot of links, but I won’t embarrass myself by trying to embed them here.

******

The issue of ‘grooming’ of underage girls by predominantly Asian gangs, covered on this blog here, here and here, seems to have gone mainstream…

Far away are the days, seven years ago, when a Channel Four documentary on the subject was pulled, after pressure from West Yorkshire Police, because it might increase support for the BNP (aka ‘increase community tensions’). What was once ignored by polite society, and only spoken of by racist knuckledraggers, is now almost prime-time, earnestly discussed by the great and the good. And now, when arrests are made, even the BBC no longer looks the other way.

But there was a price to pay for all those liberal blind eyes over so many years. It was paid by working-class Yorkshire and Lancashire girls like Emma, interviewed here. The Labour MP Ann Cryer, who’s been a long-time campaigner on this issue, getting stick “from leading figures within her own party, not least from the former Labour leadership contender Diane Abbott“, said ‘Emma’s description of her situation is pretty well identical to the situation of girls in Keighley whose mothers came to see me out of desperation, because they just couldn’t get any action from West Yorkshire Police or Bradford Social Services‘. The same West Yorkshire Police that was suppressing the evidence for political reasons, under its Chief Constable the late Colin Cramphorn, ‘a man of liberal sympathies and a Guardian reader for many years‘.

Just as 52 people had to die in London before the Labour Party started putting the lives of UK citizens ahead of not being like Norman Tebbit, girls have been raped and abused over a decade* while police, media and social services looked the other way.

http://ukcommentators.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/grooming-goes-mainstream.html

The British public’s “… perpetually offended reflex of victimhood, injustice and persecution, which is the vein you absolutely must hit if you want to sell newspapers.”

There are two claims in that rather wild generalisation, FR, and both are empirically testable.

Does the British public display a “perpetually offended reflex of victimhood, injustice and persecution”? Some Britons do; but not everyone all the time.

Is the British public’s “perpetually offended reflex of victimhood, injustice and persecution” …”the vein you absolutely must hit if you want to sell newspapers”? Some newspapers, perhaps; but not all.

Flying Rodent

”Evidence as presented by Ceops suggests that this kind of crime is more prevalent among Asian men, but you seldom hear angry demands that, say, alcohol-related violence be referred to as a white man’s pastime”.

Yep, you’ve got those rabid Daily Mail types and the swivel eyed lumpenproletariat bang to rights there. [sarcasm]

”From the get-go, every time this case has appeared in court, it’s been accompanied by a rash of articles and reports decrying an all-pervading political correctness that somehow prevents their authors talking about race and sexual abuse….”

I think people saying that are saying more about things like this:

Lancashire Police are so nervous about the subject that they would not even talk about a pilot project which is considered the national model for how to deal with the grooming of unsuspecting children.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/child-sex-grooming-the-asian-question-7729068.html

And you have Keith Vaz popping up on the radio and warning about the BNP several times – as have ”Hope not Hate” who only seem worried about how the BNP and EDL idiots will spin this.
As if those two groups have any real clout in England.
They don’t – or it’s marginal at best.

42. the a&e charge nurse

[29] “It will certainly seem significant to those large sectors of the ‘Asian community’ who are not Muslim and who may feel themselves tarnished by being lumped in with the perpetrators in some way” – two points come to mind.

First, sexual exploitation (and abuse) of women by men is both universal and timeless, although in this case the group element and level of organisation was perhaps less typical for the UK?

Secondly, I am not sure what you mean when you refer to non-muslim sectors of the asian community – do you mean such groups fear a backlash, or that they will be keen to distance themselves from any perception that there is a cultural driver to the behaviour of the Rochdale gang?

Surely a bigger scandal is that women’s choices have become so limited in these urban hellholes that spending time with such unsavoury characters actually held some sort of appeal?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QUUwp9xIs&feature=related

43. flyingrodent

I’ve been trying to stay focused on the points I made in the OP here, but there’s too many loopy ideas swirling round this thread to stay out of it.

We have the idea that these scumbags were abusing girls because they viewed them contemptuously, as worthless and to be used at whim, unlike white rapists and child molesters who always rape their victims with the utmost respect.

We have the idea that this reflects a particular problem within Rochdale in a way that, say, the Edinburgh sex abuse ring didn’t reflect particular attitudes of middle class white perverts in the Lothians.

We’ve also got the idea that, because Asian men are overrepresented in one form of sexual abuse, this is a particular problem in a way that overrepresentation of other ethnic groups in other sexual offences isn’t.

And we’ve got the idea that Asian men are part of a culture that views some white girls as “sluts” and “slags”, and that this is a far more serious problem than it is in the white British culture that first coined the words “sluts” and “slags”.

This is just scratching the surface of some of the oddball arguments we’re seeing here. Now, I’m entirely open to the idea that Pakistani culture is especially mysognistic and that this could result in particular patterns and behaviours in sexual offending. It’s hardly as if woman-hating behaviour in that part of the world is a secret and this is a perfectly legitimate topic for debate, especially at the conclusion of a case as horrific as this one.

In an ideal world, however, that debate would not involve several thousand bellowing internet tools hurling obvious logical fallacies and whiffy generalisations at each other because they’re absolutely convinced that them Asians are being encouraged by politically correct coppers to vulnerable abuse white girls.

Surely a bigger scandal is that women’s choices have become so limited in these urban hellholes that spending time with such unsavoury characters actually held some sort of appeal?

I suspect THAT is the subject that won’t be discussed for fear of politically correct stormtroopers. If conditions for young girls in poverty have worsened to the point where being offered booze, cigs and drugs in exchange for often degrading group sexual acts looks like a good deal, then we’ve got bigger problems than Asian gangs regarding white girls as easy meat.

We’ve got the problem that they might well be right.

45. flyingrodent

And when I say that any debate should ideally “not involve several thousand bellowing internet tools”, it’s for the same reason that I’d advise ignoring Ian Paisley’s opinions on child abuse in the Catholic Church.

Who knows – Dr Paisley’s opinion may even be 100% correct. On the other hand, he’s a lunatic who thinks the Euro is a Vatican conspiracy to undermine Protestantism, so we’d have to suspect that his contribution is going to be a bit tainted.

I don’t know, maybe I just live on a different planet…

It seems that one of the things that bothers people is the perception that the police and social services ignored and avoided these cases for years because they were worried about appearing racist or “inflaming community tensions”.

It is of course arguable whether that perception is fair. What’s not arguable, as far as I can see, is that it’s arguable.

Here’s the head of a Muslim charity that works with young people in the North of England, speaking in 2008:

“I think the police are overcautious on dealing with this issue openly because they fear being branded racist and I think that is wrong”…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/1582830/Muslim-leader-says-police-are-too-cautious-over-Asian-pimp-gangs.html

Here’s a former East Lancs Police officer, Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, writing last year:

What Jack Straw has said so carefully is true: There is a problem with some members of the Pakistani community targeting young women in this way….

For people to just come out and call Mr Straw racist is wrong.

There must be a debate, not on his right to make the comments but on the issue itself…

In the past there have been major fears of being seen as racist, especially after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry at the Met police said the force was institutionally racist.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/opinion/8782968.Sex_grooming_debate__What_Straw_said_so_carefully_is_true/

Here’s Ann Cryer, a former MP for Keighly in West Yorks, in the Telegraph on Tuesday:

Greater Manchester Police and the Crown Prosecution Service have now apologised after they failed to bring the case of the first victim—Girl A—to trial following her cry for help in August 2008….

Complaints to social workers and the police were ignored because they were “petrified of being called racist”, former Labour MP for Keighley Ann Cryer said.

Mrs Cryer, who has campaigned to bring the issue of Asian sex gangs to light, said the girls had been “betrayed” and condemned to “untold misery” by the police and social services.

“This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness,” she said.

“They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them.”

Girl A told police that she had been raped and provided DNA evidence from her attacker, however the CPS twice decided not to prosecute him.

The 15 year-old’s abuse continued and at its height she was being driven to flats and houses to be raped by up to five men a night, four or five days a week. She was singled out because she was white, vulnerable and under-age.

Her ordeal only ended when her teachers forced social workers to intervene after she fell pregnant and they became concerned by the number of Asian men picking her up from school.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9253250/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Police-accused-of-failing-to-investigate-paedophile-gang-for-fear-of-appearing-racist.html

47. Charlieman

The claim that “we were prevented from doing something about a serious known problem because we would have been accused of cultural insensitivity” is Class A Horseshit. It is one of those excuses that people spout when they have been caught not doing their job or actively doing something stupid.

Class A Horseshit

Or perhaps the reason that a former MP and campaigner on the issue, a Muslim community leader and a former police officer from an affected area agree about it is because there is some truth in it.

Or maybe they dreamt the whole thing up, and this was dealt with by the police and social services in a prompt and appropriate fashion, with nary a sign of institutional failure.

Maybe you know more about the issue than them? There are certainly a lot of possibilities.

We have the idea that these scumbags were abusing girls because they viewed them contemptuously, as worthless and to be used at whim, unlike white rapists and child molesters who always rape their victims with the utmost respect.

I’m assuming that this is aimed at me. What I pointed to in my comment on Sunny’s post was the respective ethnicities of the perpetrators and victims, so that it’s fairly clear that poor vulnerable white children are view as worthless qua poor vulnerable white children. That’s why they’re all poor vulnerable white children.

Are there groups of white men systematically abusing Asian children? Yes? Well, then they’re obviously racists too. It’s not actually that difficult a word to use once you get the hang of it.

Was there, in fact, institutional failure on the part of the social services and the police that stemmed from a desire to avoid investigating crimes that might cause them to be seen as racist or cause tensions along ethnic lines in the local community? Some people seem to think so. Perhaps these people are all tools, though. Perhaps the police and social services were on this from the start. Perhaps the fact that this is still happening is some kind of weird trick of the light.

50. Charlieman

@47. vimothy: “Or perhaps the reason that a former MP and campaigner on the issue, a Muslim community leader and a former police officer from an affected area agree about it is because there is some truth in it.”

You misunderstood my words. In my second sentence I wrote: “It is one of those excuses that people spout when they have been caught not doing their job or actively doing something stupid.”

I expect that care workers and police officers do their jobs. When they fail to do so, I am not going to accept nonsense that “we were prevented from doing something about a serious known problem because we would have been accused of cultural insensitivity”.

43. flyingrodent

“And we’ve got the idea that Asian men are part of a culture that views some white girls as “sluts” and “slags”, and that this is a far more serious problem than it is in the white British culture that first coined the words “sluts” and “slags”. ”

Not sure about this, if only because I’m not wholly sure what the point is. The fact that British people coined derogatory *English* words for women? Do Pakistanis (to use the topical example) not have their own derogatory words for women? If so (and I’d be staggered if it wasn’t the case), doesn’t this make the fact that British coined the English words “sluts” and “slags” pretty irrelevant in that they’re as bad as each other? Is this ‘whataboutery’ or something?

On a more general point, and coming from not too far from Rochdale, I think a lot of people are angry because there’s a belief that this is really the proverbial tip of the iceberg when, despite trying to point out the lack of ‘social cohesion’ in some areas, they’ve been told repeatedly that there isn’t a problem, that there aren’t ‘no go’ areas in some places. I’d much rather live in a world where everyone can get on with each other, whatever their ethnicity, religion, place of birth but I’d also like to live in a world where everyone is completely honest when it’s not working (if only because that has to be the first stage of getting it to work). At the moment, that’s not the case at all.

That doesn’t mean that any of this equates to ‘all Asians…’ or “all Pakistanis…’ or “all Muslims…” and so on. It’s possible to think this is more widespread than most would think at the same time as “it’s not all Asians…”. Part of the problem with any topic that touches on ‘race’, ‘ethnicity’ or ‘religion’ is that it becomes polarised so quickly and even the people who claim to be standing on a rational, detached middle-ground are quick to slot other people into various ‘extremist’ camps.

It’s possible to think that this (the kind of thing that’s happened in Rochdale – however you want to describe it) is more common than some people will accept without thinking that “all Pakistanis…” etc. Similarly, it’s possible to think that some Muslims have twisted their culture or religion in such a way that leads them to think white people, white women are ‘less than’ in some way without this equating to “all Muslims…”. No different than thinking the American Religious Right are dangerous nutters but 90-year-old Ethel serving weak orange cordial at the village church fete is a very different kettle of fish.

52. Charlieman

@50. Oliver: “The fact that British people coined derogatory *English* words for women? Do Pakistanis (to use the topical example) not have their own derogatory words for women? If so (and I’d be staggered if it wasn’t the case), doesn’t this make the fact that British coined the English words “sluts” and “slags” pretty irrelevant in that they’re as bad as each other?”

I’d suggest that when liberal commentators define their arguments in such a way, they are fairly close to agreement.

The Rodent wrote: “And we’ve got the idea that Asian men are part of a culture that views some white girls as “sluts” and “slags…”

It’s about disrespect, and the language in which that disrespect is expressed is irrelevant.

Wow, Flying Rodent @43, that’s some serious spinning about all them ”tools” doing their own spinning and pushing their barely veiled agenda (to bash Asians and Muslims). You’re not even mentioning segregation in those northen English towns. Sunny did I think. These guys from Pakistan (actually from Pakistan itself, not Brits from Pakistani families) are probably spending too much time in each other’s exclusive company I suspect and haven’t moved on much from the view on the street in Karachi and Lahore.

Those ”contrarians” at Spiked here suggest that this ”not in front of the children” nervousness of discussing this issue openly – least it gives the BNP and the EDL a big boost – shows that there is a contempt for parts of the white working class from the likes of Keith Vaz, Hope not Hate, and the woman David Arronovitch was talking about in his Times column today – that is not so different to the alleged contempt that these men in Rochdale had for their young victims.

If there’s one thing worse ….. than excitedly playing up the sex-pest threat posed by the entire Pakistani community, it is downplaying the capacity of ordinary white Brits to judge for themselves whether a smattering of admittedly miserable sex-abuse cases damns a whole section of society. And here we get to the unsavoury irony of this whole pussyfooting, not-in-front-of-the-children approach to the Rochdale nine.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/12426/

54. flyingrodent

Are there groups of white men systematically abusing Asian children? Yes? Well, then they’re obviously racists too.

I’ve heard nothing to indicate that these arseholes were abusing these girls specifically because they were white. It should be stark, staringly obvious that these girls were targetted because they were vulnerable, i.e. in care, possibly emotionally damaged. That precisely fits the profile of sexual abusers throughout the land, who tend not to target victims who are likely to strongly resist, be harder to manipulate and to immediately report them to the police. If you can provide strong evidence that it was the kids’ whiteness that made them targets, pony up. As far as I’m aware, the judge didn’t say any such thing.

Was there, in fact, institutional failure on the part of the social services and the police that stemmed from a desire to avoid investigating crimes that might cause them to be seen as racist or cause tensions along ethnic lines in the local community?

The Graun say that no further investigation was carried out because the CPS didn’t believe the witness was credible…

“police initially failed to pursue her case because the Crown Prosecution Service advised them she was not a credible enough witness”. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/08/rochdale-gang-guilty-exploiting-girls

…Which is a depressingly common decision in rape/abuse cases. Basically, the CPS have to judge whether they’ll be able to get a conviction or not, and a major part of that in rape trials is how the witness will come across to juries. Recall – studies have repeatedly shown that juries are highly judgemental of women’s conduct and very likely to draw negative conclusions, i.e. acquit the accused, if they dislike the victim’s character. Leading cause of juries disliking your character – being inarticulate, from a poor background and doing unpleasant things that nice jurors wouldn’t do themselves.

This is a national problem that should be troubling primarily because it means that poorly educated, low-income women often don’t have access to justice in the same way that more articulate people do, and it’s rife throughout the justice system.

What it emphatically is not is evidence that the police or whoever decided not to investigate because they didn’t want to be thought of as racist. As ever, anything is possible but I’ll wait for the result of the inquest, but that doesn’t even pass the laugh test for me – if you had good reason to believe your Asian neighbour was regularly assaulting and raping his wife, would you decide against reporting it in case somebody, somewhere thought you were a racist? I doubt it.

Again, this is something we can only speculate upon. If there’s hard evidence that the cops were so paralysed by PCness that they facilitated child rape, I suggest somebody presents it. That’s a serious charge to be making without good cause.

55. flyingrodent

The fact that British people coined derogatory *English* words for women? Do Pakistanis (to use the topical example) not have their own derogatory words for women?

The point I’m making here is that contempt for young women – sexual objectification and dehumanisation of women, in fact, is hardly a singularly Pakistani trait. Let’s grant for the sake of argument that it is a more common view in Asian communities than the general public – it’s still an endemic problem throughout the country. That’s why prosecutors have such a damn hard time getting convictions in rape cases – the prejudices of jurors override their sense of duty to decide on the legal case. Those juries aren’t all packed to the gunnels with middle-aged guys straight off the plane from Karachi.

As I say, I’m prepared to accept that people from Pakistani communities have a greater cultural tendency to view young women as basically worthless. What I’m not prepared to accept is that this is some wholly different category of offending behaviour, hived off from the sexual crimes of other British criminals. I also find the idea that everyone must recognise and condemn this singular, exception cultural trait in exact, racially targetted language, utterly absurd. I think the idea that this rapist behaviour is so utterly different from everybody else’s rapist behaviour that the centrality of race and culture should be accepted, or you will immediately be declared an accomplice in Asian rapists’ crimes, is jaw-droppingly retarded.

Damon – Brendan O’Neill is a tit and practically every column he has ever written is about how much a bunch of unnamed, allegorical elitist fucks hate the working class. Doesn’t matter whether it’s crime or football or christmas dinner, it’s the same damn column every week. Binned, for repetition.

Assume for the sake of argument that sex with teenage girls is integral to “Islamic” society. I am not convinced that it necessarily is, and at the very least it is certainly not peculiar thereto. But assume that it is.

Is a non-Islamic culture really in any position to claim the moral high ground if its girls, even given that, are known to be more readily available due to their sexually saturated culture and their near-total lack of supervision by parents, other older relatives and the wider community?

“What we are fighting” in Afghanistan might come out of this very badly. But, at best, “what we are fighting for” does not come out of it any better.

57. flyingrodent

Is a non-Islamic culture really in any position to claim the moral high ground if its girls, even given that, are known to be more readily available due to their sexually saturated culture and their near-total lack of supervision by parents?

What? We’re talking about girls being raped and abused, Lindsay. That’s some shameful shit, right there.

I’ve heard nothing to indicate that these arseholes were abusing these girls specifically because they were white.

Come now, really—when did the bar get shifted to such an absurdly high level? All of the perpetrators are from one ethnic group and all of the victims, who were being repeatedly gang-raped, are from another. It’s obvious on its face that this is a racist act.

Again, imagine that, in the North West, gangs of white skinheads are attacking Asian children. They don’t attack any other children—they only attack Asians. You would want to say, well, there’s no evidence that they attacks are racist. The skinhead gangs just really want to beat up children and, in the North West, Asians are all that’s available. It’s an unfortunate coincidence, but we shouldn’t worry about the fact that all of the perpetrators of the abuse happen to be drawn from one ethnic group and the victims happen to be drawn from another.

What “evidence” does it actually take to qualify a crime as racist? Signed manifestos? Nazi graffiti?

The Graun say that no further investigation was carried out because the CPS didn’t believe the witness was credible…

That’s an explanation of why the police didn’t investigate in one particular instance, but I don’t think it’s an adequate explanation for the phenomenon considered as a whole. As I wrote in another comment, it’s arguable whether this perception of oversensitive police and social services is fair. What I don’t think is arguable, is that it’s arguable.

You write that, “If there’s hard evidence that the cops were so paralysed by PCness that they facilitated child rape, I suggest somebody presents it. That’s a serious charge to be making without good cause.” Meaning, as far as I can tell, that if this were true it would be outrageous; therefore, it can’t be true. But the cops were paralysed by something—whatever that something was—right? And the outcome was that vulnerable children were repeatedly raped. I don’t know if “facilitated” is the right word, but they certainly didn’t stop it. Hell, it’s still going on.

Perhaps you could explain to me what I should make of this—I want to know how it is that members of one ethnic group have systematically sexually abused vulnerable children from another ethnic group for years unimpeded by the law. Much of what you have written here seems designed to minimise the scale of what has happened in my community: some tu quoque-ery mixed in with the idea that I shouldn’t worry about it; that it’s not significant; that it’s more or less meaningless. Don’t be outraged or scandalised. Maybe I’m getting the wrong end of the stick, so how should I understand it?

Lindsay might have a point worth developing there.

Assume arguendo that these gangs are just randomly targeting vulnerable children. What does it mean that all of the victims are drawn from one particular population?

@54. On O’Neill, that’s quite convenient. Did you not hear Keith Vaz and Hope not Hate then?

Note that Vaz didn’t say it was wrong because it was, well, untrue; he said it was wrong because of the effect it might have on ‘race relations’. That is, it could provoke a racial conflict. Likewise, the Guardian’s Michael White was eager to explain why there has been so much elite reluctance to call a spade a spade: ‘At one level we can understand why. The [British National Party], English Defence League and other professional racists are keen to get their crowbars into cases such as this.’ And presumably, if the BNP, which lost almost all its councillors in last week’s local elections, or God forbid, the mighty, hundred-strong EDL, ‘get their crowbars’ into the case, then white working-class Britain, the agglomerate of unthinking dupes that it is, will be powerless to resist.

Do you not agree that there is a great overreaction to the likes of the EDL and the BNP and the power and influence they have? And that those groups, and things like Nick Griffin appearing on Question Time are fetishised to the point of ridiculousness? I know that they have repeated this line for years now, but does that make it not true? The ”anti-Nazi” left have been repeating the same line too for several decades …. which I tend to bin because of repetition like you do O’Neill.

As for these ”elites” – who is it that despises the gun toting bible bashers in the USA? In the depressed coal mining blue collar areas of the Appalachian mountains when it comes to election time and it’s worried that too many will vote Republican?
Liberal intelectuals hate them of course. The listeners and viewers to Sean Hannity’s show. My point is … that Spiked do name who they are talking about, but maybe you just aren’t following very closely.

Tim

This is extremely toxic stuff, and it needs to be handled very carefully. And it isn’t being.

I agree, of course. But one mustn’t allow the caution this rightly inspires to tip one into outright denial. Another infamous trope of bigots throughout history has the cruel, devious Jew but few here would avoid criticising Israeli militarism or the influence of the country’s lobbyists.

Vim

Come now, really—when did the bar get shifted to such an absurdly high level? All of the perpetrators are from one ethnic group and all of the victims, who were being repeatedly gang-raped, are from another.

I think we’re at risk of confusing this point. (Aw, hell, who’s risking anything. It HAS been confused.) Some appear to have implied that these are first and foremost racist acts, through the means of sexual abuse. In other words – that they decide to abuse white girls and do it through the medium of rape. Others think they do it first and foremost because they’re perverts who want to get their rocks off, but that the deeds this inspires are facilitated by their prejudice. Others might feel bigotry has nothing whatsoever to do with it but I’m not sure how they’d explain comments like “white bitch” or “you white people train them in sex and drinking, so when they come to us they are fully trained“.

Bigotry was clearly an influence, then, but it’s arguable at which stage it became an influence and to what extent.

As for these ”elites” – who is it that despises the gun toting bible bashers in the USA? In the depressed coal mining blue collar areas of the Appalachian mountains when it comes to election time and it’s worried that too many will vote Republican?

Perhaps I’ve said this before but the irony of Spiked is that they get all high and mighty about treating the proletariat with due respect but then tubthump on behalf of causes – globalisation, free marketeering, open borders, bankers – that the common worker is most likely to despise. It’s as if I sympathised with the pimpled and overweight victim of bullying in a classroom and then demanded mandatory swimming lessons and cross country running.

My belief, as it happens, is that these men are probably more comfortable abusing non-Asian and, perhaps, more specifically non-Muslim females – partly as they’re more likely to be social outcasts but also as they clearly hold them in bigoted contempt. On the other hand, I suspect that they’re perverts first and bigots second. After all, it’s not as if Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on are idyllic places where the men treat their womenfolk with deference and respect. Perverts over there are happy to rape their own countryfolk.

That’s not to say it isn’t a significant factor – as I say, I believe it is – but there are worthwhile distinctions to be made nonetheless.

I want to know how it is that members of one ethnic group have systematically sexually abused vulnerable children from another ethnic group for years unimpeded by the law

Which proves that you’re a pretty disgusting bigot. I give a shit about people abusing children without being investigate. I really couldn’t give the slightest flying fuck about the race of the kids or the abusers.

The police’s early dismissals of the case, very clearly, were because they felt the witnesses were not credible. In other words, they didn’t believe that an underclass white child with a drugs/alcohol problem was someone against whose abusers they were able to take action.

This is disgusting. But it’s got absolutely fuck all to do with race. FR’s Edinburgh example, among dozens of others, highlight cases where middle-class white people abused vulnerable (in the underclass/drugs/runaway/care home) sense and got away with it for years or decades.

People who aren’t race-bating, DARKIE MENACE cunts might want to focus on that problem, rather than spurious bullshit about veils and the Taliban and suchlike.

Others might feel bigotry has nothing whatsoever to do with it but I’m not sure how they’d explain comments like “white bitch” or “you white people train them in sex and drinking, so when they come to us they are fully trained“.

First comment: ‘bitch’ is the misogynist term. I’d accept they’re bigoted against women, obviously. Second comment: opportunism.

BenSix @32 – very fair points. But the issue (for me) is never the Spiked people as a group with an agenda, it’s what they say at any given time, and they are often very good in their analysis about a variety of subjects. I think people are rejecting them because of dislike of the organisation, which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater IMO. This was O’Neill on his Telegraph blog the other day:

One of the most striking things about the Rochdale debate is its competitive scaremongering. It’s hard to know which side is worse: those who spread panic about the existence of sinister “networks” and “rings” of sex criminals and paedophiles across Britain, as if gangs like this exist everywhere, in every corner and community in the UK; or the coppers and commentators who stoke up fear about BNP thugs and ignorant white people who will apparently be provoked into violence if they so much as glimpse a headline containing the words “Asian sex gang”. One side wants us to view the existence of sex gangs like the one in Rochdale as commonplace in our allegedly misogynistic era; the other tries to convince us that ordinary people are a racist pogrom-in-the-making who must not be told that some Asians did some bad things.

Because people hate him so much, they totally ignore the content I find.
But he’s bang on the money again. He and Spiked are right. Hope not Hate and UAF are complete over the top twats who are incapapable of reasonable debate because they are so worried about the potential of the white working class to ”go Nazi”. Who else says that consistently?

Ben Six @62 I meant.

Can I just add … that a year ago I was banned from commenting on the EDL threads on Sunny’s other site ”Pickled Politics” by the moderator there who did the stories about the far right. He just wasn’t having that kind of line I highlighted above – about the far right menace being totally overdone. He said I was a ”concern troll” even.
And that was OK by the other mods on that site, so I doubt it’s much different here.

@55 flyingrodent

“The point I’m making here is that contempt for young women – sexual objectification and dehumanisation of women, in fact, is hardly a singularly Pakistani trait. ”

Everybody would accept that and I’m not seeing anyone genuinely arguing any different. So why would it wrong for people to call this particular demographic on it if they are also calling other demographics (white people etc) on it? Again, this is just whataboutery, surely?

“those juries aren’t all packed to the gunnels with middle-aged guys straight off the plane from Karachi.”

Because, even statistically, this would be incredibly difficult to achieve in most areas due to the way juries are selected.

“What I’m not prepared to accept is that this is some wholly different category of offending behaviour, hived off from the sexual crimes of other British criminals. I also find the idea that everyone must recognise and condemn this singular, exception cultural trait in exact, racially targetted language, utterly absurd.”

I do think it might be different. Not necessarily ‘worse’ than if a white gang had perpetrated exactly the same offence on the same scale with the same age range, but it is different. If only because genuinely different factors are coming into play. The idea of culture clash (rural Pakistani hitting ‘full on’ Northern English towns) is an element that marks it out as different whether we like it or not. The fact that the perpetrators belong to one demographic and all the victims another also marks it out as being different. Again, not necessarily worse per se but *different*.

It’s an important distinction and it should be treated as, due to the seriousness of the crimes (whoever has done it), we really need to understand anything that might be a motivator here. This, in this respect, is no different than, say, murderers. Not everyone who murders does so for the same reasons, for example – despite the fact that murder is truly horrible straight across the board whoever does it – so there’s different kinds of profiling at work. I’m not sure why this case shouldn’t be the same.

68. the a&e charge nurse

[63] “My belief, as it happens, is that these men are probably more comfortable abusing non-Asian and, perhaps, more specifically non-Muslim females” – now they have been convicted I wonder if any of the men will explain WHY they chose the way they did?

I have read that as many as 47 young women were abused – maybe they were targeted because they were the most vulnerable, in other words opportunism played a key role in the gang’s behaviour – in other words the white girls were the easiest to prey on?

The OP concludes that manufacture of outrage is of key significance in R9 case, not least because it enables amoral newspaper proprietors to yet again shift copy on a phony basis (a point I agree with) – but it still remains a terrible indictment that so many young women can be passed around by such a ghastly group of men for so long before the penny finally drops that a series sordid crimes are being committed.

Even if we cant trust the newspapers we can still trust our own judgement that such events reflect very badly on the kind of society they took place in?

I’ve heard nothing to indicate that these arseholes were abusing these girls specifically because they were white.

Here you go.

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadan Foundation, said: “There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over-representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.

“They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community. I urge the police and the councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive.”

Or

A professional of Pakistani heritage said that such men led a “schizophrenic” existence. Conduct unthinkable with Muslim girls became “acceptable” with “corrupted” white girls. “These people have not learnt to respect such girls as they might respect their own daughters. They absolve themselves of criminal culpability and blame society for failing to protect the girls.”

or

Passing sentence ten miles from Heywood in an unrelated case at Bolton Crown Court this year, Judge Steven Everett told Abdul Mehri, 25, from Afghanistan, who was convicted of sexually assaulting a 16-year-old girl, that his view of sex was hypocritical. “She was not from your ethnic background. I am quite sure that … while you would not be prepared to sexually assault someone from your own background, you saw no harm at all in sexually approaching this young girl. You saw [her] as a way to fulfil your sexual needs without transgressing your religious beliefs.”

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3408670.ece

Which proves that you’re a pretty disgusting bigot.

Right, right–because anyone bothered by the specifically racist nature of this crime is obviously a bigot.

Presumably, this is your response whenever people are victimised on the basis of their race: how dare you notice the race of the people who did this, you disgusting bigots.

71. flyingrodent

Vimothy – Perhaps you could explain to me what I should make of this—I want to know how it is that members of one ethnic group have systematically sexually abused vulnerable children from another ethnic group for years unimpeded by the law.

This should be relatively straightforward for anyone with a passing understanding of how organised sexual predation works. Even by comparison with other forms of crime, sexual abuse is particularly difficult to detect and investigate.

The very nature of the offence makes it so. Abusers intentionally seek out the most vulnerable victims – people who are easier to manipulate with fear and inducements; who are less likely to seek the protection of the law and, given the generally shitty state of British juries, are less likely to be believed than more advantaged victims.

Further, offenders go out of their way to keep their activities quiet. In both the Edinburgh and Plymouth abuse ring cases, the only reason that they were apprehended was because the perpetrators were thick enough to make their crimes known on the internet. If it wasn’t for the police’s excellent internet paedo-detection operations, both groups would probably still be offending without anyone being aware of the matter. The difference, of course, is that when – if – these white criminals were caught, nobody would demand that white people examine the cultural paedo-tendencies of “white culture”. Because that would be daft, wouldn’t it? I’m from Edinburgh. What has the Edinburgh sex abuse ring to do with me?

On the difficulty of catching offenders – I realise that this is a difficult point to grasp for those who have a mental image of a bunch of Pakistani geezers cruising up and down Rochdale high street, blaring hip-hop out of a pimped-out gold Vauxhall Nova full of underage girls, but it is very, very difficult indeed to detect and successfully prosecute these types of offenders.

The idea that the failures in this case represent some kind of unique scandal, of an entirely different character and magnitude to other, similar cases involving white offenders. is absolutely absurd. Assertions that the ethnicity of the offenders forced the police to turn a blind eye remain exactly that – assertions and statements from individuals that appear to be backed up with little more than conjecture.

I think it’s entirely justifiable to conclude that these offenders hold racist views; it sounds much like they’re damned from their own mouths. I also think that this case, at the most basic level, is practically identical to every other abuse ring case I’ve heard of in recent years, and that the central issue is the damn organised rape and not the ethnicity of the offenders and victims.

Note – It’s fairly alarming that people who are clearly very knowledgable about current affairs display such a high level of ignorance about sexual offending and prosecution, by the way. The points I’m making on the difficulty of prosecuting sex offenders here aren’t difficult or obscure; they require no particular expertise to grasp and can be discovered with a minimum of research, if people care to look.

Oliver – Again, this is just whataboutery, surely?

Note here that I’m not arguing that the race and culture of the offenders should be ignored, or that the context of the crime is irrelevant. They aren’t, and discussion of this crime in that context is justified and desirable.

What I’m saying is that this case and these offenders are very, very obviously being treated by many as some entirely seperate, wildly different occurances and behaviours to those of other rapists and abusers. They aren’t – they’re the same as every other sex abuse ring of recent years, and attempts to turn this into some exceptional instance with broad-brush generalisations is wrong-headed and unhelpful.

Well done, you’ve found some people suggesting the menwouldn’t have abused the girls if they’d *come from the same close-knit community as themselves*.

Which everyone already agrees on.

And which has absolutely bollocks-all to do with being Pakistani and absolutely everything to do with a combination of easier-dehumanisation (*just as with white paedophiles who abuse kids in the same situation*) and not wanting to get caught.

73. flyingrodent

Damon: Hope not Hate and UAF are complete over the top twats who are incapapable of reasonable debate because they are so worried about the potential of the white working class to ”go Nazi”. Who else says that consistently?

I haven’t said anything about Hope Not Hate, UAF, the BNP or the EDL. I haven’t called anyone a racist or in any way suggested that I consider any of this relevant in any way. I couldn’t give a flying one what any of these organisations have to say about the Rochdale case; I certainly don’t believe that ordinary people are only minutes away from turning into a Nazi lynch mob and I couldn’t care less how Brendan is jamming his pro-forma “This is bad but that librulz is as bad” nonsense into this week’s column.

I hope that clears things up.

Well done, you’ve found some people suggesting the men wouldn’t have abused the girls if they’d *come from the same close-knit community as themselves*.

Um, no. I’ve “found some people” stating that the girls were targeted for abuse because they were white. Which is what FR said he’d never seen anyone saying. As in:

“Conduct unthinkable with Muslim girls became “acceptable” with “corrupted” white girls”

“They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought”

This should be relatively straightforward for anyone with a passing understanding of how organised sexual predation works.

Well, maybe I lack that passing understanding of how organised sexual predation works. And maybe we’re talking at cross-purposes here.

It doesn’t surprise me, though, to learn that paedophiles want to keep their activities a secret, or that they pick on vulnerable targets. Those seem like truisms and I’m happy to take them as given. But it seems to me that abuse of this nature is only possible in the face of serious and multileveled institutional failure. How is it that this was all so easy (which is what I took to be David Lindsay’s implied question)?

For example, I think it’s fairly well established that Catholic priests are no more likely to abuse children than men from the general population from which they are drawn, but it’s still worth asking: how did this happen? Given that it happened, it’s obvious that such a thing will involve secrecy and vulnerable victims. But you can’t explain the phenomenon by restating a bunch of necessary conditions. By their nature they don’t speak to the particularity of the case at all.

The difference, of course, is that when – if – these white criminals were caught, nobody would demand that white people examine the cultural paedo-tendencies of “white culture”. Because that would be daft, wouldn’t it? I’m from Edinburgh. What has the Edinburgh sex abuse ring to do with me?

This isn’t a bad question, but it is complicated. Note that I haven’t drawn any inferences about Pakistani or British Asian culture in my comments. In fact, I haven’t mentioned it at all. When I wrote that race was a central issue, it was because it’s obvious to me that the crimes are racist in nature, not that there is something amazing about the fact that ethnic minorities commit crimes. Nor do I believe that, simply because someone comes from a conservative religious society, they are therefore more likely to commit rape or be generally misogynistic.

Now, I don’t live in Edinburgh and I don’t know anything about the case you refer to, but I think that if they were victimising Asian children, or black children, then it would be fair to say that race is a central issue there too. If not, then not. As to our own culpability, I would not be so quick to dismiss it. It is right to feel shame, as a man, when men abuse women. And it is right to feel shame, as a white Briton, when white Britons abuse non-whites. It’s the individual uber-alles in the modern world, but it’s more human to identify with those with whom you share a common bond. It’s not wrong either to ask: what is it about our culture that produces these monsters? The idea that crimes just happen, like the weather, and don’t have any meaning or cultural significance, I find both pernicious and symptomatic of our confusion about crime.

On the difficulty of catching offenders – I realise that this is a difficult point to grasp for those who have a mental image of a bunch of Pakistani geezers cruising up and down Rochdale high street, blaring hip-hop out of a pimped-out gold Vauxhall Nova full of underage girls, but it is very, very difficult indeed to detect and successfully prosecute these types of offenders.

I know people who work with these kids and you are certainly quite wrong that it is difficult to detect. It is not difficult at all. What is difficult is preventing it from happening.

76. Hugh Ward

“All-white child abuse rings don’t trip the right switches or spark the same emotional response, although their crimes are equally heinous.”

Whites make up 30% of those convicted of street grooming, “Asians” make up 28% (source BBC, although BBC declined to mention that “Asians” make up 4% of the population). The ‘its racism innit’ excuse making of those convicted and the article author is fraudulent.

77. flyingrodent

But it seems to me that abuse of this nature is only possible in the face of serious and multileveled institutional failure.

I don’t see any strong reasons at present to believe that this is the case. Despite your assertion, it’s not easy to detect abuse. It can be a complete shock to a victim’s family, never mind to authorities who don’t know the victim anything like as well.

The common signs parents are told to look out for – wild mood swings, oversensitivity, lack of care for personal appearance and so on – are so common in teenagers generally that it’s very hard to spot the results of abuse; this goes double for kids in care, who are likely to be dealing with emotional issues that adults would struggle to cope with.

Further, the coppers don’t have Magical Paedo-Detecting Beams to deploy. They’re reliant on third parties coming to them – beat bobbies and patrol cars aren’t going to tackle this kind of crime. Sexual abuse is necessarily a clandestine activity, and the only ways the police can detect it is a) if the perpetrators do something idiotic and get caught or b) if a victim or someone the victim knows comes in with a strong enough case to justify an investigation. You can set up all the checks and balances in the world and criminals will still find ways to ooze between the cracks because scheming on ways to commit crimes without punishment is their entire purpose. They devote massive amounts of time and energy to it, and large organisations can’t possibly prevent them all of the time.

Now. I reckon that when the audit comes back from this case, there are going to be countless missed opportunities, unspotted alarms and obvious screw-ups – there are generally plenty of those even in cases where criminality is caught and prosecuted early. Policemen are generally a contientious bunch who do their duty to the best of their abilities; social workers usually do their utmost to help rather than harm the kids they look after and prosecutors mostly don’t turn a blind eye to horrors for no strong reason. I also wouldn’t be bowled over if someone, somewhere along the line has made a statement about the undesirability of stirring up hassle with the local Asian population with a case that may turn out to be nothing.

What I don’t expect to find is major institutional faults in which numerous individuals unreasonably failed to do their duty, either maliciously or by omission. And I’ll mail you a tenner if the final conclusion is that the coppers didn’t investigate because they were so worried that folk might think they were racist.

What is difficult is preventing it from happening.

It’s an unfortunate fact of life that there is no way to prevent crime from happening, all or even most of the time. We can put systems and measures in place to reduce the likelihood; to discourage offenders and to speed up reaction times upon detection. Preventing it from happening is going to remain an impossibility for as long as people insist on being appalling bastards to each other and that, unfortunately, looks like being forever.

78. flyingrodent

The ‘its racism innit’ excuse making of those convicted and the article author is fraudulent.

Show me the “it’s racism innit” excuse in the post.

One thing, for now:

Despite your assertion, it’s not easy to detect abuse

This was not my assertion, which is a proposition about the phenomenon of child abuse in general. What I asserted related to particular instances of child abuse in North Manchester.

Flyingrodent @73, you didn’t mention UAF and Keith Vaz etc, I did – in reply to Ben Six particularly, but indirectly to you also a bit. Because you have raised the issue about ”how come people are talking about not being able to talk about this when there’s been loads of talk about it?” They even had a question on it on Question Time last night. And my point was that there are lots of people who keep warning ”but what about the BNP?”
Implying that Brits can turn fascist at the drop of a hat if they hear about ”Muslamic ray guns” and stuff like Asian paedo gangs.

If you saw Question Time last night, you might have picked up on a feeling in the audience in Oldham, that a lot of people wanted to hear that ”all communities” had their deviants and criminals and to just quickly move on. There was a fair bit of nodding from some Asian audience members when that kind of opinion was expressed. As one might expect.
But it is probably a too complex issue for Question Time to rush through.

No, tabloids: “Hate this person! They’re taking your money!” (or otherwise victimising you)
Guardian/Indy: “Hate this person! They’re human-rights abusing that person!” (or taking their money/stole money from nameless masses eg non-doms for tax)
I have assumed the class-educationa-cultural divide is between those who have learnt to project their self-pity onto others due to, what? In my case, religious guilt, must be minority.
I also assume those happy souls who will never read this because they don’t ‘get’ politics or voting are morally superior due to no self-pitying victimisation complex.

Whoa, there was HUGE outrage about the Vanessa George/facebook/nursery nurse abuse ring case. Presumably because it was weird – who the f competes to abuse more children to win a total stranger’s attention on facebook? – and the trust issue affects all parents. There was more fuss so far about that case than this one – rightly so, parents need to trust nurseries.


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