A good example of disability stigma is to be found here on this very blog, on the “Tom Watson Smacks Down Guido Fawkes” posting where Sunny uses the derogatory term “windowlickers”.

Charming.

I believe that is the house style, although I take your point. I prefer the term “guidophile”.

Do we know whether the first stat (“One in five (21%) British adults surveyed think disabled people need to accept they can’t have the same opportunities in life”) distinguishes between people who think disabled people *shouldn’t* have the same opportunities and people who think that they should, but that realistically this won’t happen? Basically, do we know whether or not they sympathise with disabled people?

As for the MS stuff, I’m not sure how worrying this is. Does the man on the street need a working knowledge of MS, out of all the other things he doesn’t know about but should? In terms of providing medical information to the layman, it seems to me that we should prioritise issues where it can make a real short-term difference, like the FACT campaign that aims to show people the signs of stroke (although for all I know this applies to MS, as I’m not very informed about the condition myself).

I quite surprised only 21% of people think the disabled can’t have the same opportunities. By definition being disabled means being unable to do certain things. Not being able to do things that other people can will reduce your opportunities.

It’s disappointing that 26% think a bar is no place for a wheelchair.

I’m surprised it’s not worse after the tory smear campaign against welfare scroungers.

The MS figures aren’t particularly interesting since the question is vague. I’ve got a decent knowledge of medicine and I know that MS is a degenerative muscle wasting disease. Is that “enough”? I could have a better knowledge but whether it is “enough” or not is an opinion.

The stats relating to disability in general are more revealing. Due to a wide spread smear campaign against the disabled in the media I am not surprised. The motivation is purely to reduce the welfare bill but the result is a growing resentment against those who genuinely need some support. Sadly cutting disability benefits will actually mean that some people will find it increasingly difficult to contribute to society and can end up costing the welfare state more if they can no longer get out to work.

The report, out today, shows that a quarter of Britons think disabled people exaggerate their disability.

The problem with that is that you do not know if it is true. And it would depend on the question. You think that only a quarter of British people know of someone who is officially “disabled” who is exaggerating? I would bet it is more than that.

One in five (21%) British adults surveyed think disabled people need to accept they can’t have the same opportunities in life, with men (28%) more likely than women (15%) to hold this view.

Only one in five? As someone else pointed out, being disabled means, by definition, not having the same opportunities so all this proves is that the British public has been browbeaten into giving the politically correct answer to survey questions. I expect far more also recognise that water is wet.

More than one in four (26%) Britons think bars and nightclubs are not places for people with wheelchairs, a belief more commonly found in men (31%) and 18-24 year olds (32%), compared to women (21%) and 45-54 year olds (22%)

Bars and nightclubs? A pity they asked those two together isn’t it? Myself, I would think that a wheelchair posed a health and safety risk in the mosh pit. But what do I know? It seems that the more experience people have with mosh pits they more they are likely to think that wheelchairs do not belong there. Seems reasonable to me.

One in four (24%) Britons believe disabled people often exaggerate the extent of their physical limitations, with men (28%) again more likely to hold this view than women (20%).

How can that be classified as poor knowledge unless you know what they know? How do you know that they are not right?

More than three quarters of people with MS (76%) can think of at least one occasion when someone has questioned the fact they have MS because they ‘looked well’, with over half (53%) able to recall at least one occasion when their symptoms have been mistaken for drunkenness.

Questioned the fact they have MS by saying they looked well? That sounds a little over-sensitive to me. Perhaps people just thought they looked well. Given the common sight of drunken people and the fact that MS can present in a similar way, I don’t see this as discrimination so much as a perfectly reasonable and justifiable inference.

Understanding of MS particularly poor
A large majority (71%) of British adults admit that they don’t feel they know enough about MS.

There are thousands of possible conditions classified as disabling in the UK. People can’t know them all. All this shows is guilt – which in turn suggests that British people do not discriminate. They feel guilty about not knowing more.

Most people don’t realise MS attacks in early adulthood, with almost 4 in 5 people (79%) either estimating that MS is most commonly diagnosed among people aged over 35 or answering ‘don’t know’.

Why should they? I doubt they know much about Lupus either. You may as well say the fact that no one here is going to vote for Romney is proof of discrimination against MS sufferers.

Significant numbers of people who know someone with MS are under-equipped to understand the condition, with just one in five (20%) feeling they know enough about it.

Again the low figure shows British people are basically decent. Not discriminating at all. Yet again all we see is the Usual Suspects manipulating polls in order to demand more money or more legislation or more “action” for their favourite cause. It is not worth even dealing with.

To be fair i never knew much about autoimmune diseases until i developed one. While i don’t expect the general public to fully understand what its like to ill and not be able to do things that they take for granted. I do expect certain Government ministers to have a good knowledge of chronic diseases and to make sure that disabled people are not disadvantaged or excluded. Whether from working or from obtaining benefits.

I am very surprised that so many people think that a bar or nightclub is no place for people in wheelchairs. I am not in a wheelchair, my disabilities are hidden, as so many are like my grandsons autism. But the idea that disability should stop you from enjoying yourself is laughable.

@ SMFS

“Again the low figure shows British people are basically decent. ”

Yeah, I get the same impression. How much is “enough” is presumably in the mind of the respondent. If they were callous or resentful towards MS sufferers they’d likely think they didn’t need to know any more.

And even we assume that all of the percentages shown for the non-MS questions represent bastards with a bad attitude towards disabled people – which we can’t – they’re still low figures. “Some People Are Wankers” is not news.

8. Lynne

I do expect certain Government ministers to have a good knowledge of chronic diseases and to make sure that disabled people are not disadvantaged or excluded. Whether from working or from obtaining benefits.

Why to both? Why on Earth should they have any knowledge of chronic diseases? They have entire Departments to advise them. Why should they even try to make sure disabled people are not disadvantaged or excluded? How could they do so? You mean they should throw a truck load of money at them? Even that is not going to do it.

I am very surprised that so many people think that a bar or nightclub is no place for people in wheelchairs. I am not in a wheelchair, my disabilities are hidden, as so many are like my grandsons autism. But the idea that disability should stop you from enjoying yourself is laughable.

Why do you find it odd? If you’re dancing you can’t be looking around yourself all the time as well. It is just inconsiderate to other people to take a wheelchair on to the dance floor where people will bump into you and hurt themselves. A pub? Sure. No problems. A nightclub? Less so. However you can still enjoy yourself without going to clubs or bars. Most people do. This is hardly a sign of massive discrimination but an expression of a mild preference based on consideration for other people. What is wrong with that?

@So Much For Subtlety Re: point about a mosh pit.

Seriously, how many “bars and nightclubs” have mosh pits?* Even night clubs with busy dance floors, how many ‘regular’ punters (particularly blokes) never make it onto the dance floor anyway and just clutch their drinks in groups around the periphery of the dancing?

I’m genuinely wondering whether many blokes not wanting wheelchairs &c. in bars and nightclubs because, in their mind, ‘disabled’ = ‘minger’.

*I think the first time I saw wheelchairs at non-folk gig was at a Suicidal Tendencies gig around 1987. Two men in chairs were right in the middle of it and nobody really seemed to give a fuck.

8
You mean they should throw a truck load of money at them.

No, because they don’t. I want to live in a civilised country where disabled people are treated with respect. your response is very selfish and self centred.

it is just inconsiderate for people to take wheelchairs onto the dance floor

Well i would hope that wheelchair users are as considerate as you seem to be.

7

“Again the low figure shows British people are basically decent. No discriminating at all”
Yep, life can be a bitch.

@ 10

“Why should they even try to make sure disabled people are not disadvantaged or excluded? How could they do so?”

By legislation and by not making statements which inflame disabled hate crimes. You strike me as the kind of person who thinks not enough disabled people in work. If they can’t get on the buses or the tube, how can they get to work?

By the way, if people are unable to dance on the same dancefloor where someone in a wheelchair is dancing, they must be very clumsy or the dancefloor is overcrowded. Just look around you when you dance.

11. Oliver

Seriously, how many “bars and nightclubs” have mosh pits?* Even night clubs with busy dance floors, how many ‘regular’ punters (particularly blokes) never make it onto the dance floor anyway and just clutch their drinks in groups around the periphery of the dancing?

No idea. But they were not asking people to go out and do a survey. They were asking them what they thought. Which means they would think of a hypothetical nightclub, dark, loud, lots of people dancing, and they may well have decided it was not a good place for a wheelchair.

I’m genuinely wondering whether many blokes not wanting wheelchairs &c. in bars and nightclubs because, in their mind, ‘disabled’ = ‘minger’.

I bet most people think of male wheelchair users for the generic.

Lynne

No, because they don’t. I want to live in a civilised country where disabled people are treated with respect. your response is very selfish and self centred.

But that is not what you said. You said something very different. We do treat disabled people with respect and we don’t have to throw a truck load of money at them to do it. So this is a demand for something more. What?

Richard

By legislation and by not making statements which inflame disabled hate crimes. You strike me as the kind of person who thinks not enough disabled people in work. If they can’t get on the buses or the tube, how can they get to work?

There are no disabled hate crimes worth talking about. It is victim-mongering. Legislation cannot correct reality. It can at best rub a few edges off. Someone in a wheelchair is still someone in a wheelchair. No amount of legislation is going to make up for that.

The OP doesn’t surprise me even though it is depressing. Especially the bit about ‘exaggeration’ of disability. I’ve come across that attitude in my own life among my own family and friends even. You often can’t tell how someone is feeling just by looking at them – you can’t feel their pain, or their fatigue, or their other symptoms – and yet for a sizeable minority (it seems) the default attitude is ‘oh this person must be exaggerating’. Why? It’s a baseless assumption.

I’ve had the ‘but you look well’ thing. It’s okay if people accept, when you tell them, that in fact you are feeling rubbish… but if they don’t accept it, that’s when you get problems. It has taken me a long time to educate some members of my own family about my conditions, so I’m a little pessimistic about how the general public can be educated about all the disabling medical conditions out there (not just MS of course).

Perhaps the answer isn’t education about conditions as such but just encouraging a compassionate attitude, such as, if someone says they aren’t feeling well then y’know, they’re probably not feeling well. Encouring people to ask the person, if they don’t understand, rather than make assumptions.

And regarding the ‘same opportunities in life’ question – well a significant part of disability comes from the society you live in. If there were no such things as wheelchairs then a lot of people would be a lot more disabled than they are. Advances in technology reduce disability – Stephen Hawking’s talking computer as an example. Wheelchair ramps as another, more simple one.

So the attitude among some able-bodied of ‘just accept it’ is rather galling for a lot of people (myself included) who feel that society could be making a lot more effort in terms of helping people with disabilities and conditions to engage with the world and fulfil their own potential. I’ve written a post on this site about how employers are put off employing disabled/chronically ill people, and that’s just one example.

Funnily enough it takes understanding and compassion for this to happen.

By the way, SMFS #15:

“There are no disabled hate crimes worth talking about.”

Umm… try this for starters:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/sep/13/gemma-hayter-disability-hate-crime-abuse

Took me a few seconds to find that. There are more.

16. Violet

So the attitude among some able-bodied of ‘just accept it’ is rather galling for a lot of people (myself included) who feel that society could be making a lot more effort in terms of helping people with disabilities and conditions to engage with the world and fulfil their own potential.

We already pay a fortune and put up with significant inconvenience to make the world better for disabled people. How much is enough?

Umm… try this for starters:

I don’t see how that is a disabled hate crime. It is a hateful crime that happened to be aimed at a disabled person. A different thing.

And needless to say the typical sort of activist was using it as an excuse to demand greater reductions in the freedoms and rights or the rest of us. As if that would have deterred them.

@ 17 SMFS

“We already pay a fortune and put up with significant inconvenience to make the world better for disabled people.”

Awww. Poor able-bodied victims, always getting the short straw. I wish I was a gay black Muslim disabled woman so I could get £500,000 p.a. in benefits and a free Xbox.

Give it a rest. It’s not a fortune, and the “inconvenience” is generally around the level of “oh, I’m not allowed to use this parking bay, how annoying”.

@ 16 Violet

“You often can’t tell how someone is feeling just by looking at them – you can’t feel their pain, or their fatigue, or their other symptoms – and yet for a sizeable minority (it seems) the default attitude is ‘oh this person must be exaggerating’. Why? It’s a baseless assumption.”

I reckon there are at least four reasons for this.

1) People assume that a non-visible affliction must be non-existent or minor.
2) People confuse casual uses of terms with medical ones, so when you say someone suffers from depression, what people here is “they’re down in the dumps”, hence people saying that depressives should “pull themselves together”. Ditto people thinking “fatigue” means “a bit tired”.
3) People like to believe that they have it as hard if not harder than anyone else, leading them to downplay any problems that don’t affect them.
4) Real and exaggerated claims of fake disability claimants in the media and society, making people suspicious.

18. Chaise Guevara

Awww. Poor able-bodied victims, always getting the short straw. I wish I was a gay black Muslim disabled woman so I could get £500,000 p.a. in benefits and a free Xbox.

Now you’re being childish. I give you plenty to object to. Why do you feel a need to make more of it up?

Give it a rest. It’s not a fortune, and the “inconvenience” is generally around the level of “oh, I’m not allowed to use this parking bay, how annoying”.

And knocking holes in heritage buildings. Another whole level of problems if you employ anyone with a disability. Or have to teach them. Or work with them.

Actually we do tolerate a lot. And most of us are happy to. But when is it enough?

@ 20 SMFS

I’m not making anything up, I’m satirizing your position – although it’s hardly necessary now that you’re making out BUILDINGS to be the victim. Save the inanimate objects! Anything to avoid helping people who need help, eh?

Again: I don’t see what the average person “tolerates” beyond not being able to park right next to the shop (etc.) and paying a small amount of tax. I’m sure there are people who take collateral damage from disability legislation, mainly employers, but it’s hardly a yoke around the neck of A. N. Everyman.

And teaching? Seriously? You’re giving society brownie points for not excluding disabled kids from education?

#17 and #20 SMFS:

“A fortune”? “Significant inconvenience”? “Reductions in freedoms and rights”? Examples please!

“Another whole level of problems if you employ anyone with a disability. Or have to teach them. Or work with them.”

‘Them’! Disabled people are human beings SMFS, were you aware of that?

Your moaning about employing disabled people is part of what causes those same people to have to claim benefits. Another thing you then moan about. It would be a lot more convenient if we all went and died quietly somewhere, wouldn’t it?

Do you think you would change your tune if you became disabled? Or would you be happy to accept your lot, and ask for nothing from the society you live in?

Regarding Gemma Hayter, well if a bunch of able bodied people ‘just happen’ to commit a crime against a disabled person, in a climate when people with disabilities are regularly trashed in the mainstream media, and used as scapegoats for austerity/rough times etc, one might be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than just ‘oh our victim happened to be disabled, well fancy that’.

Don’t take my word for it though, according to the Independent, disability hate crimes are up by 20%:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/disability-hate-crimes-up-a-fifth-2351317.html

#19 Chaise:

Yeah I agree with most of those points, especially number three unfortunately as I do think a large part of the bad attitudes aimed at the sick/disabled is due to people having a sense of bitterness about their own life. Which is fine, everybody has problems, but directing it into hostility against people that don’t deserve it is as pointless as it is harmful.

As ever, SMFS continues to bluster along in his usual unenlightened way and create his/her own universe.

However, the group which suffers the greatest discrimination are those with mental health problems, they actually don’t need wheelchairs or special parking concessions and most would be able to dance in a mosh pit. According to SMFS (based on postings on other threads), he is rather sceptical about mental ill-health, on the basis that it is not physicallly observable.

I happen to work with this particular group and are aware of the discrimination suffered at the hands of would be employers. The only way that most sufferers get an interview is if they lie, I happen to know several who hold down good jobs but their employer is unaware of their condition.

I also receive reports on a weekly basis of mental health service users being teased, people knocking on their door and running-away, stones thrown at their windows, rubbish put through the letter box etc.

Unfortunately, this has been happening since the Community Care Act of 1992 despite attempts to educate employers and the local population about mental ill-health. To this extent, I’m surprised that the results of the survey weren’t more negative, but it could be that the terms ‘mental ill-health’ or ‘learning disability’ weren’t mentioned specifically.

“There are no disabled hate crimes worth talking about.”

WRONG. So appallingly wrong that I despair of this sort of ignorance. I work with, and have worked with scores of people with learning disabilities and every one without fail has been targeted for theft, fraud and physical violence many times – in one case, repeated assault based solely on their disability over 6 months or more. The Police, surprise surprise, did nothing because they take the attitude you do: doesn’t matter, didn’t happen, let’s not mention it.

Fiona Pilkington: look her up. Then come back to apologise. Not that you will.

21. Chaise Guevara

I’m not making anything up, I’m satirizing your position – although it’s hardly necessary now that you’re making out BUILDINGS to be the victim. Save the inanimate objects! Anything to avoid helping people who need help, eh?

Yes you are. If we have a building of significant heritage value and to make it compliant with all the relevant government regulations, we would have to gut it, or at least knock a hole in the side of the wall for wheelchair access, should we? A choice has to be made. By and large we say we should. But it is a cost and it is a loss. We wouldn’t allow anyone to do that if they owned it for any other reason.

Again: I don’t see what the average person “tolerates” beyond not being able to park right next to the shop (etc.) and paying a small amount of tax. I’m sure there are people who take collateral damage from disability legislation, mainly employers, but it’s hardly a yoke around the neck of A. N. Everyman.

It is hardly a small amount. To make everything wheelchair compliant costs a lot of money. Even doing simple things like putting slopes down from the pavement to the street at pedestrian crossings costs a surprisingly large amount. It costs. And as I said, people are usually perfectly willing to do it.

And teaching? Seriously? You’re giving society brownie points for not excluding disabled kids from education?

Yes.

Violet

Examples please!

Examples of what? I think Sunny ought to be free to use the phrase window licker. As I believe he did the other day. Some people want him jailed for doing so. We are not quite there but what is that but a threat to our freedoms and rights?

‘Them’! Disabled people are human beings SMFS, were you aware of that?

So they are. So what?

Your moaning about employing disabled people is part of what causes those same people to have to claim benefits. Another thing you then moan about. It would be a lot more convenient if we all went and died quietly somewhere, wouldn’t it?

No, it is stupid, well meaning but poorly thought out legislation that causes both problems for employers and disabled people on the dole. If the government stayed the hell out of it, they would all have jobs.

Do you think you would change your tune if you became disabled? Or would you be happy to accept your lot, and ask for nothing from the society you live in?

I have no idea. I hope I wouldn’t change my tune.

Regarding Gemma Hayter, well if a bunch of able bodied people ‘just happen’ to commit a crime against a disabled person, in a climate when people with disabilities are regularly trashed in the mainstream media, and used as scapegoats for austerity/rough times etc, one might be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than just ‘oh our victim happened to be disabled, well fancy that’.

So you admit it is all in your mind? Especially as there is no trashing of disabled people in the mainstream media.

Don’t take my word for it though, according to the Independent, disability hate crimes are up by 20%:

Which is irrelevant. As the category more or less does not exist.

steveb

However, the group which suffers the greatest discrimination are those with mental health problems, they actually don’t need wheelchairs or special parking concessions and most would be able to dance in a mosh pit. According to SMFS (based on postings on other threads), he is rather sceptical about mental ill-health, on the basis that it is not physicallly observable.

And because diagnoses have exploded. And the criteria got laxer and laxer.

I happen to work with this particular group and are aware of the discrimination suffered at the hands of would be employers. The only way that most sufferers get an interview is if they lie, I happen to know several who hold down good jobs but their employer is unaware of their condition.

Rightly so. If employers did not fear that most people with mental illnesses where not faking it they might be more willing to employ them. But at the moment it is asking for trouble so they won’t.

I also receive reports on a weekly basis of mental health service users being teased, people knocking on their door and running-away, stones thrown at their windows, rubbish put through the letter box etc.

So they live in normal parts of Britain do they?

Rufus

WRONG. So appallingly wrong that I despair of this sort of ignorance. I work with, and have worked with scores of people with learning disabilities and every one without fail has been targeted for theft, fraud and physical violence many times – in one case, repeated assault based solely on their disability over 6 months or more. The Police, surprise surprise, did nothing because they take the attitude you do: doesn’t matter, didn’t happen, let’s not mention it.

The police don’t investigate any crime so this is hardly discrimination. How is it wrong? You have not shown that people with learning disabilities were being targeted because of hate rather than because they are easy targets. Thus not necessarily a hate crime.

If anything this is an indictment on Baroness Warnock and all the progressives who insisted on Care in the Community. Of course the weak and vulnerable have special problems. They should be cared for properly. But that does not mean they are the victims of special hate.

Fiona Pilkington: look her up. Then come back to apologise. Not that you will.

No I won’t. Why would I?

@ 25 SMFS

“Yes you are. If we have a building of significant heritage value and to make it compliant with all the relevant government regulations, we would have to gut it, or at least knock a hole in the side of the wall for wheelchair access, should we? A choice has to be made. By and large we say we should. But it is a cost and it is a loss. We wouldn’t allow anyone to do that if they owned it for any other reason.”

This is one of the most insignificant costs I can think of. There’s no reason to put old buildings on a pedestal, and we’re not even talking about knocking them down, just slightly modifying them. I suppose it’s a big cost to those morbidly afraid of change.

“It is hardly a small amount. To make everything wheelchair compliant costs a lot of money.”

OK, what are the figures? Because I find it hard to believe that it costs a significant amount per taxpayer.

“Yes.”

What amazingly low standards you have. Treating disabled people as human beings with rights seems morally neutral to me; your philosophy indicates that I should have a parade in my honour for not being a burglar.