Teenager charged with ‘racial aggravation’ for soldiers comment


by Sunny Hundal    
4:23 pm - March 14th 2012

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I find this story utterly absurd.

19 year old Azhar Ahmed has been charged with a ‘racially aggravated public order offence’ after posting a comment on Facebook that was nothing along those lines.

This is what a police spokesperson said of the charge: “He didn’t make his point very well and that is why he has landed himself in bother.”

What? That’s your reason?

Here is the comment he posted on Facebook.

I can see why people may find that offensive.

But is it right to arrest someone for that, and charge them with ‘racially aggravated public order offence’?

It’s not even clear how criticising soldiers constitutes ‘racial aggravation’.

The ninteen year old will now have to appear in court on 20th March after making those comments. Well done, West Yorkshire Police.

Update: Meanwhile, if a soldier posts on Facebook that he’s going back to Afghanistan to “shoot some towel heads”.

Update 2: Padraig Reidy at Index on Censorship asks the same question: how is this racially aggravating?

I’ve also been told a complaint has been lodged with the police over this case. @FahadAnsari points to a number of comments on Facebook posted in response to this case which threaten him:

Sampler also posted on his own Facebook page yesterday: “Fro all thoses who hate that scum that sed things about. The british soldiers deaths azar ahmed will appire in dewbury magistrates court on tuesday 20 march for all those who can make it let’s show him we dnt stand fpr people slaggin are soldiers on iv been told to post this monthmy wall if you won’t to see this scum get wot he deserves post this an get to the court.” Sampler has since removed this comment but I took a photo off it on my phone 13 March 2012 at 7.23pm and can send you it as well.

I have a strong feeling the English Defence League will turn up at court on the day too, given the kind of comments posted on Facebook about this.

Update 3: As suspected, the English Defence League are holding a demo at his trial. (via @NazisNotWelcome)

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


Well I don’t agree with the sentiments, but it’s well within free speech. There’s no racism evident there. It’s on Facebook, not on the street being shouted in someone’s face so I can’t see the slightest hint of a crime. I’m sure this will get thrown out of court, as it should be

Leaving aside for the moment the arguments of free speech, or the insensitivity of the comments, I don’t see anything there that mentions race. Surely that should be a required element for a “racially aggravated public order offence” charge?

3. Chaise Guevara

As stupid as this is, I assume it won’t get anywhere. In fact, he’s probably entitled to sue for wrongful arrest. If the courts agree that a “racially aggravated public order offence” does have to be racially aggravated OR affect public order, then we’ve got a problem.

I’m a white 18 year old and if I believed in Hell myself I would probably think something along the same lines as he does.

Presumably busted by the thought police since – as has been pointed out – no overt racism there.

If he’s found guilty this country will be well and truly down the pan.

Nothing to do with race, and I 100% agree with the comments! We mourn the deaths of PAID KILLERS like they’re fucking heroes, everyday. There’s no conscription in this country, they chose to do a job where they kill people for a living – fuck em. The only good thing about the military is that it keeps some of the slightly more psychopathic elements of our society off our streets – unfortunately it arms them and puts them on other peoples’ streets

Don’t agree with his last few sentences, but I don’t see why he shouldn’t be allowed to say them. Considering this and the guy who got arrested for being rude about Bexley councillors it’s not a great time for free speech.

Replace the word soldier with “muslim” or “paki” then witness your foaming at the mouth response even at your imagined reveresed scenario, but its ok for soilders to die and take shit isent it? They only serve and die for there country, godforbid any one should give any negative comments to those who just uh, turn up…

Ah, fiction becomes truth.

I wrote this for a bit of a laugh http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/12/05/the-case-for-the-immediate-arrest-of-rod-liddle/ but I assume the CPS will now feel honour bound to charge Rod Liddle under the 1986 Public Order act.

Sunny,

Are you sure these are the correct messages? This doesn’t add up at the moment – unless West Yorkshire Police are employing particularly stupid decision makers.

Since the police should not be releasing their evidence to you, can you verify this is the correct post? If so, then this is ridiculous – but the level of ridiculous is so great that it is hard to understand.

Just as a note, The Independent does not mention the post has no racism involved, which could mean simply they have not seen the post you have, but may also indicate they know more. I would feel happier on this if you could assure us that you are sure of your sources.

I don’t get the racially aggravated part either, unless there is more “back story” than we can see above. However I’m not sure why (pace Julian @1) the fact that someone makes comments on facebook is necessarily less serious than shouting them in someones face. Unless we are to understand that putting a smiley face after any comment is a “get out of jail free” card…?

Also, Sunny, the “All soldiers should die and go to hell comment” would hardly seem to qualify as “criticism” would it?

Is callng for the death of “all soldiers” any different (or less likely to cause offence) than calls by any other extremists for the deaths of their chosen target groups which might well be held to be illegal?

@Galen10

Fair enough points. Worth noting, though, that under the 1986 Public Order Act (and I’m assuming for now that he’s been charged under this) that causing offence through “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour” is not in itself a crime – it only becomes a crime IF:

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or

(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

There may – as others have pointed out – be other facebook messages at play here, but I don’t see intentional or even unintentional stirring here, though of course that is always a matter of judgment for the courts.

I’m no longer a magistrate, but I know what my inclination would be.

He didn’t make his point very well, so of course a spell in prison might help him express himself with clarity in the future. The police on the other hand have made themselves perfectly clear, criticism of ‘our boys’ will not be tolerated.
Support our boys, and the wars we make them fight, OR ELSE!

First they came for the Croydon Tram woman (and remanded her to Bronzfield prison) … now this. They’ve also made it a crime to sing ”sectarian songs” at Scottish football matches – and I guess the police and the courts decide what a sectarian song is.
Anything they don’t like I guess.

Should it be illegal to call people who wear ”towels” on their heads ”towelheads”?
Even those living in a foreign country thousands of miles away?

You’d have to wonder where the police are taking their cue from.
It has it’s roots in institutionalised anti-racism I’d say.

@ X Have a look at this: http://harrypaterson.co.uk/blog/a-tale-of-two-states-azhar-ahmed-and-scott-mchugh/#comments

It seems you are allowed to be racially abusive, but only if it is aimed at non-whites. I find this whole case absolutely horrifying. I totally agree with his sentiments, that the sympathy and OTT coverage of soldiers’ deaths is such a sad and disgusting contrast to the mild, excuse-making coverage of the slaughter of 16 innocent men, women and children. I have seen before as well many soldiers express that they wanted to join the army to “kill P***s”. I don’t consider soldiers to be heroes, especially today, except those who whistle blow about atrocities or are conscientious objectors. This guy should have been able to express himself or we are living in a dangerous and vile police state.

I have also see a lot worse racial abuse on other sites, be they sites about Gamu (the X Factor singer) staying in the UK or about Lewis Hamilton, but you never see those people being charged with racially aggravated anything. So maybe the definition of this crime has been changed to only mean when non-whites are racially abused (or not in this case), only we haven’t heard of it.

I find this difficult to believe as well, but not to the point where it doesn’t seem possible. From the other posts I’ve read, it looks as though others replied to his status update with racist language (http://harrypaterson.co.uk/blog/a-tale-of-two-states-azhar-ahmed-and-scott-mchugh/), making me wonder if he then responded in kind and that is what this about. If that is the case though, why haven’t the others who called him a paki, or indeed the founders of this charming Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/AzharAhmedScum) also been dealt with in a similar fashion?

@Galen 10

“All soldiers should die” is a universe away from “Kill all soldiers”. The latter can be considered incitement, the former, no matter how misbegotten and distasteful, simply an opinion.

Was arrested a few years back for writing this to the editor of the ‘Jewish Chronicle’ ” … G. Bush and B. Netenyahoo (my spelling), have the intellect of a sausage, no i mean chipolata … “, Got off with a police warning, apparently the editor was hugely distressed that i’d used the word ‘chipolata’, fact.

19. Biffy Dunderdale

For once I can agree with Sunny Hundal! Hooray! Free speech is free speech and this idiot should be free to be an idiot and offend people.

Any left wing righteous indignation, though, would be more credible if you weren’t so selective about those whose free speech rights you uphold. Hate speech anyone? #inconsistent

Squandering trillions to murder tens of thousands of Afghan/Iraqi citizens, and a resurgance of the opium fields – all because of a Saudi madman with strong links to the Bush clan, and a former CIA funded movement called the Taleban (Mujahadeen). Now it is a crime to criticise in any way!

Doesn’t really add up until you realise Afghanistan happens to contain trillions of dollars worth of high grade lithium, iron, tin, aluminium ores etc – to say nothing of gold and diamond reserves. That has been known by Amurrica, through the former USSR, since the 70′s. Then there’s Iraq and it’s oil…

Is that a more plausible reason for the professional killers from NATO occupying them counties – especially given that organisation’s track record with other terrorist atrocities commited by various organisations since WW2…

About time the whites got a shot at waving the minority card you cant even say the colour b***k theses days without being called racist.

22. Mike from Ottawa

You guys don’t get it about the “racially aggravated”.

Azhar Ahmed’s comments are “racially aggravated” because with a name like that he’s bound to be “racial” and not normal like white people like me, so all his comments on anything are ‘racial’ and he’s clearly ‘aggravated’ about something so his comments are “racially aggravated”. Easy as pie.

Just in case, folks, that is sarcasm above, though I don’t guarantee the actual reasoning behind the charges is any more cogent..

Remember, UK authorities are also prosecuting the twitter bomb joke guy for making a bomb threat (I can only hope Canadian authorities aren’t as clueless but no guarantee)

As to the content of Azhar Ahmed’s comment, the real issues, apart from any actions that should be prosecuted as criminal under military law, the key decisions that cause the deaths and maiming of Afghan civilians are not made by the guys carrying the guns on the ground but by their command authorities and their political masters. Most of the British (and Canadian, etc,) soldiers in Afghanistan would rather be back in their own countries and are the wrong people to be directing rage against.

Given that the surname of the kid making the comments here is “Ahmed”, is there not surely a mind-read here being done by the authorities in terms of ascribing a motive to his anti-military sentiment?

Because he is assumed to be Muslim, his antipathy towards soliders is apparently therefore automatically attributed to ethnically motivated race hate beyond all conceivable doubt, it seems.

Does anyone else find that deeply troubling? Not least since it represents (on the face of it) the case of a young, angry Muslim made angry by the wrongful and unnecessary killing of other Muslims by his own government, who respond by detaining him and charging him for being angry?

As a matter of interest, if Azhar Ahmed had tried to post his message here, would it have complied with your comments policy?

Does anyone else find that deeply troubling? Not least since it represents (on the face of it) the case of a young, angry Muslim made angry by the wrongful and unnecessary killing of other Muslims by his own government, who respond by detaining him and charging him for being angry?

I know I do. Lenin’s tomb has done a bit of analysis which you may or may not find interesting and relevant – http://leninology.blogspot.com/2012/03/free-speech-martyr.html

@21, it is fine calling a black person “black”, when it is merely descriptive (not always accurate) – when it is used as an insult (as in “that black bastard”) it is racial abuse, because it shows that idiotic person focusing on skin colour as a reason to abuse…

Why the feeble whites under attack conspiracy too? .Are you basing your opinions on puerile EDL propaganda?

@#14 “It has it’s roots in institutionalised anti-racism I’d say”

My big laugh of the day.

Got to love our police force… Ever on the lookout for non-existent crime!

Slightly off on a tangent, but why are so many of the slighted ‘white minority’/EDL only semi literate? Are immigrants taking their teachers as well as their jobs?? ;)

@24

As a matter of interest, if Azhar Ahmed had tried to post his message here, would it have complied with your comments policy?

Speaking purely for myself, I *would* have had him detained still, personally.

But only for poor spelling.

Which is why I never sought a career in law enforcement, quite frankly…

I agree the ‘racially aggravated’ bit is strange, and it is indeed a curtailment of freedom of speech, but I have to add that this kind of stuff has been enabled by the fair-weather friends of liberty on the left, who have have been the driving force for these kinds of laws. It’s not enough to be liberal some of the time.

#30: This kind of law, arguably, but not the actual law in question here. The 1986 Public Order Act (sec 3 on racial aggravation) came under Thatcher, and replaces the 1936 Act of the same name.

Nice to see that the Azhar Ahmed Scumbag Facebook page has now changed its message from saying he should be killed to “put away and never let out”. Perhaps someone told them that incitement to murder is a rather more serious crime than a racially aggravated public order offence?

33. Charlieman

Nowt about the topic. But I am very pleased that septic responds to comments and adds to the OP.

34. Dear Old Ted

And someone told me some geezer called Voltaire had the last word on this…

RB@28:

[i]“Slightly off on a tangent, but why are so many of the slighted ‘white minority’/EDL only semi literate?”[/i]

The same reason which led Bill Hicks to remark, [i]“You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved?”[/i].

Would Sunny consider it to be a racially aggravated public order offence if someone posted that all Muslims should die and go to hell ?

After all, Muslims, like soldiers, are not restricted to one racial group. But I’m pretty sure Sunny would take the opposite view – or would he ?

(not that I think he should be prosecuted anyway – there’s a big difference IMHO between “should die” and “should be killed”)

Still, at least we can be sure that all the stuff about police cuts is untrue, as they obviously have plenty of spare manpower.

After all, Muslims, like soldiers, are not restricted to one racial group. But I’m pretty sure Sunny would take the opposite view – or would he ?

Will you ever stop playing this silly game Laban?

38. Chaise Guevara

@ 8 x

“Replace the word soldier with “muslim” or “paki” then witness your foaming at the mouth response even at your imagined reveresed scenario, but its ok for soilders to die and take shit isent it? ”

It’s almost hilarious how much you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about.

39. Chaise Guevara

@ 21 craig

“About time the whites got a shot at waving the minority card you cant even say the colour b***k theses days without being called racist.”

Two small quibbles:

1) If you’re posting from Britain, you need to look up “minority”. You might also benefit from checking out “utter”, “fucking” and “tool”. Just sayin’.

2) You can easily say “black”. I’ll do it now, without your heroic asterisks. Black black black black black. Hark, is that the thought police at my door? Nope, it was just the wind. And you’re an utter fucking tool.

40. Charlieman

@36. Laban Tall: “Still, at least we can be sure that all the stuff about police cuts is untrue, as they obviously have plenty of spare manpower.”

Nope, but it is a powerful argument for democratic control of police forces (ie a bunch of people looking at their actions) rather than a single individual overseeing.

41. Chaise Guevara

@ 14 damon

“They’ve also made it a crime to sing ”sectarian songs” at Scottish football matches”

Seriously? Have you got a source for that? Because if it’s true, it’s hideous.

Seriously? Have you got a source for that? Because if it’s true, it’s hideous.

Well Chaise, there’s this lot for a start:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/search/results/f471822cf82008c91ffc38684fd6db34/

The Spiked link doesn’t work, which is probably just as well. Here’s a piece on the Scottish sectarianism thing from somewhere a bit saner. Chaise, it is exactly as bad, wrong-headed and hideous as you fear.

““Replace the word soldier with “muslim” or “paki” then witness your foaming at the mouth response even at your imagined reveresed scenario, but its ok for soilders to die and take shit isent it? ”

It’s almost hilarious how much you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about.”

Oh ok then boss, heres a little experiment for you, go to a city center on three occassions and shout:

A – All soldiers should die.

B- All muslims should die

C- all pakis should die.

See which one gets you delt with most swiftly love;) If you really want to put the case across that racism towards pakis and muslims is not delt with more harshly than towards white, put it across to somone else I havent got time for you, and if you like sunny want to support extremists who go against those who serve the country you live in, maybe you should fuck off and find another country…

@44 Soldiers are not an ethnic or ethno-religious group. Correct comparisons would be ‘all bankers must die’ or ‘all bizzies must die’.

@44, .Afghanistan is NOT WW2! our proffessional soldiers are being used as part of a NATO force that are there to

1: hunt down “Al Qaeda”
2: destroy the Taleban
3: sort out the poppy fields

so much for stated aims, the reality is

1: disperse Al Qaeda worldwide
2: ally with opium barons (poppy cultivation skyrocketed from 2002 onwards)
3: prevent China taking over the mineral extraction rights to all the resources lying in them thar hills (American corporations wanted them)

As part of a NATO operation, our soldiers are also – in the eyes of locals – tainted by the atrocities commited by other NATO troops, the massacre of innocent men, women and children a few days ago is only the latest example, was that even remotely heroic?? Come to think of it, the behaviour of NATO in that country has been the opposite of heroic since day 1. If you & your family/community were on the receiving end, you would be just as angry, & saying exactly the same things.

“Soldiers are not an ethnic or ethno-religious group. Correct comparisons would be ‘all bankers must die’ or ‘all bizzies must die’.”

Correct but the premise is a man named Azhar Ahmed is saying soldiers in the British army should die. Afghanistan is a waste of time but that has little to do with the soldiers, does it.

@47 Conscription is over, being a soldier is voluntary, and it is ultimately the soldiers that end up doing the killing. Whether you like it or not public sector mercenaries are a legitimate political target for criticism of the Afghan and Iraq wars.

You can be arrested at a labour party conference man handled and then kept in a tent for hours for daring to state Labour is rubbish, take that as an example this lad is going to go down for a year or two.

We argued with labours terrorism laws saying it would cause problems for comedians for people who want to say something.

I find this lads argument to be poor, but he has a right to say it, sadly New labour did not it’s a form of control, if you control what people can say your one step closer to Nazism

@49 NAZI or CORPIE? I find a cigarette paper width between them lol
both are mindlessly authoritarian, and both ultimately lead to failure…

“Conscription is over, being a soldier is voluntary, and it is ultimately the soldiers that end up doing the killing. Whether you like it or not public sector mercenaries are a legitimate political target for criticism of the Afghan and Iraq wars.”

Conscription or not the authoritys who initiate the wars are to blame.

And so are the population who fund it, so as I said find another country.

@8 to be fair though replacing soldier with paki would be racially aggracate wouldnt it?

As for soldiers die for us every blah blah blah so do fishermen and so do lollypop ladies who get run over – even though I love fish and my children getting to school safely we dont have parades for them.

Why? Because its all a load of jingostic flag waving bullshit so patriots like you get a boner at the though of your childrens legs being blown off half the world away.

54. James Walton

Surely “racism”/”racial aggravation” is anything a complainant took to be racist? Thought this was the threshold, has it changed again?

@52 I take it you issue that message to all the members of the stop the war coalition too then? By the way I should point out that ‘ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere’ is an argument of such weight that putting that phrase into google should bring up an interesting website for ya.

“Why? Because its all a load of jingostic flag waving bullshit so patriots like you get a boner at the though of your childrens legs being blown off half the world away.”

Wow because I dont agree with your stance of all soldiers should die I must support the war and get off at the thought of legs being blown off?

57. Chaise Guevara

@ 44 x

“Oh ok then boss, heres a little experiment for you, go to a city center on three occassions and shout:

A – All soldiers should die.

B- All muslims should die

C- all pakis should die.

See which one gets you delt with most swiftly love;)”

Ah, so “your response” has become “the response of some other people in a city centre”. Woosh go the goalposts! I TOLD you you don’t know what you’re talking about.

“If you really want to put the case across that racism towards pakis and muslims is not delt with more harshly than towards white, put it across to somone else I havent got time for you,”

You really are a strange little idiot. When did I say anything about comparative harshness of reactions to racism? It’s sort of endearing the way you keep arguing with the demons in your head. Less endearing that you’re putting their words into my mouth.

“and if you like sunny want to support extremists who go against those who serve the country you live in, maybe you should fuck off and find another country…”

As the issue here is free speech, I think I’m in the right country (I would explain the difference between supporting someone’s view and supporting their right to an opinion, but you’re far too stupid to grasp it).

So: your entire post is a garbled series of straw men that prove you either didn’t read or were incapable of understanding the OP. I don’t think it’s your time being wasted here ;)

@56 – Probably not, and I apologise for my over emotional post which was unfair to you.

however I dont have a stance of all soldiers must die, I just have a stance that im not going to blindly appluad every thing they do, which wehn it boils down to it is hurting people

@56 – No, and it was a an over emotive thing to say and unfair to you so i apologise. In the same vein please note however that i do not support the stance of soldiers dying.

60. Chaise Guevara

“Correct but the premise is a man named Azhar Ahmed is saying soldiers in the British army should die. ”

If a person wiv a forrin name says somefin nasty about British (and therefore white) people, they is a racists!!!111 Quid Pro Quo!!!!11

Welcome to the bad acid trip that is X’s world, people.

“Ah, so “your response” has become “the response of some other people in a city centre”. Woosh go the goalposts! I TOLD you you don’t know what you’re talking about”

Its called the general population, a good testing ground for the reaction of the general public, or try facebook, if you will.

“You really are a strange little idiot. When did I say anything about comparative harshness of reactions to racism?”

You said I did not know what I was on about in response to me suggesting that people would be up in arms if instead of a person suggesting all soilders should die, they suggest all pakis and muslims instead should die.

So you were responding to what I had written, just not exactly what I had uh,,,written? Who is it that doesent know what there on about? ” Inserts lots of little insults to make my case feel stronger”

“As the issue here is free speech, I think I’m in the right country (I would explain the difference between supporting someone’s view and supporting their right to an opinion, but you’re far too stupid to grasp it)”

I can not walk down the street and call some one a paki scum fuck who should die, so why is this lad according to you entitled to get away with similar?

62. Chaise Guevara

@ 61 x

“Its called the general population, a good testing ground for the reaction of the general public, or try facebook, if you will.”

It is indeed! That’s the thing that we weren’t talking about but now you’re pretending we were talking about to move the goalposts.

“You said I did not know what I was on about in response to me suggesting that people would be up in arms if instead of a person suggesting all soilders should die, they suggest all pakis and muslims instead should die.”

No, you said “you” would be up in arms, “you” there presumably referring to Sunny or the commenters on the thread. If you habitually use “you” to refer to the general public without any context, you’ve got communication problems.

“So you were responding to what I had written, just not exactly what I had uh,,,written? Who is it that doesent know what there on about?”

That would be you (see above).

“I can not walk down the street and call some one a paki scum fuck who should die, so why is this lad according to you entitled to get away with similar?”

It’s not according to me, it’s according to the law (or at least the law he’s been arrested under). Calling someone a “paki” in the street is both racist and harrassment. Saying soldiers should die on Facebook is neither.

“It’s not according to me, it’s according to the law (or at least the law he’s been arrested under). Calling someone a “paki” in the street is both racist and harrassment. Saying soldiers should die on Facebook is neither.”

Cant be bothered to go around in circles with the usual monkey, you claim its neither, the law claims otherwise hence his arrest, and it should be according to you, didt your mother ever teach you if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all?

Do you have any individual integrity and self determination to decide these things? Personaly I dont call people pakis or wish they should die because thats ” bad ” . People have a right to free speach, it ends with wishing or speaking of harm to another, as is evident by the law in this instance, not your stupid fucking views..

64. Chaise Guevara

@ 63 x

“Cant be bothered to go around in circles with the usual monkey, you claim its neither, the law claims otherwise hence his arrest, and it should be according to you, didt your mother ever teach you if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all?”

I can’t fathom what you’re on about for most of this, but I get the impression that you think his arrest proves that he’s broken the law. Guess we should get rid of courts, then! Guess what? Cops make mistakes, on account of being human, and that includes misinterpreting the law.

“Do you have any individual integrity and self determination to decide these things?”

What, me personally? Yes. Why are you asking?

“Personaly I dont call people pakis or wish they should die because thats ” bad ” . People have a right to free speach, it ends with wishing or speaking of harm to another, as is evident by the law in this instance, not your stupid fucking views..”

No, it doesn’t. You have to *incite* harm to break the law.

Looks like it..

Lets just replace the law system with Chaise Guevara, the all seeing fucking eye.

67. Chaise Guevara

@ 66

Aww. Is oo grumpy because it turns out you’re wrong about everything?

“Aww. Is oo grumpy because it turns out you’re wrong about everything?”

Um the case hasent been to court yet has it, only then you were sarcastically saying we should get rid of the courts and now here you are making there rullings for them??

From a legal stand point im sorry you will have to wait for court before that can be judged, from a moral and any self respecting one…well..im sorry about that to. You cant help how you were raised or what level of social intteligence you have, you may truly believe its right..your pain..

We won’t know what the evidence against him is until it is presented in court. It’s absolutely true that there’s no reason to assume there is any evidence that proves Mr Ahmed’s guilt. Nonetheless, I think it’s a good idea to avoid making guesses about what evidence will be presented.

70. Chaise Guevara

@ 68 x

“Um the case hasent been to court yet has it, only then you were sarcastically saying we should get rid of the courts and now here you are making there rullings for them??”

Um, no. I was expressing my opinion. You seem to have me confused with some kind of all-powerful judge who can tell courts what to do.

“From a legal stand point im sorry you will have to wait for court before that can be judged, from a moral and any self respecting one…well..im sorry about that to.”

Hilarious! You’re the one who apparently thinks an arrest is as good as a conviction. You need to make your mind up over whether or not police have the final word on whether someone has broken the law. Your current position is immoral, unworthy of respect and, as of your last post, hypocritical. My current working hypothesis is that you just spew out whatever random thoughts are in your head.

“You cant help how you were raised or what level of social intteligence you have, you may truly believe its right..your pain..”

Woe is me! Your garbled insult has reduced me to tears. Sharper than a serpent’s tooth are the barbs of a semi-literate moron!

@70 Well he was using a form of the iylismwdyglt ‘argument’ before, so clearly a master debater.

This is the first article of Sunnys’ I have agreed with. This country has gone mad.

“Hilarious! You’re the one who apparently thinks an arrest is as good as a conviction”

Not quite but its normally an indication of suspected wrong doing, whats wrong are you afraid you cant say what you want without consequence? Godforbid one cant publicly wish for the death of soldiers in there host country what are they going to ban next shitting in eachothers faces in the middle of the streets?

“You need to make your mind up over whether or not police have the final word on whether someone has broken the law”

As I am waiting for court, as stated, its fairly obvious I have made my mind up, that he has done wrong is but my opinion which is shared by the authoritys,an opinion that currently has a little much punch than yours.

“Woe is me! Your garbled insult has reduced me to tears. Sharper than a serpent’s tooth are the barbs of a semi-literate moron!”

No, I am not like you im not after that. There are many differences in the people of society, im allowed to feel sorry for you.

“@70 Well he was using a form of the iylismwdyglt ‘argument’ before, so clearly a master debater.”

God no, im no mouth warrior like you lot haha godforbid.

75. Chaise Guevara

@ 71 Cylux

Indeed! In fact, it was a very special version of the iylismwdyglt principle where I should apparently leave this free-speech-supporting country if I like free speech so much!

What a prannock.

James,

This is the first article of Sunnys’ I have agreed with. This country has gone mad.

To be fair to Sunny, he is very strong on free speech and anti-racism, which it is difficult to disagree with him on.

As to the particular case, if this is the correct Facebook post, then this is not madness, it is ridiculous. The lack of coverage in the mainstream press on this is a concern however – The Independent article linked to by Sunny is the only thing I can find, and that does not indicate this was the Facebook post used. If the facts are as plain as presented above, then this would be a story (unless covered by the laws about disclosing evidence?) worth reporting, at least in the left-wing qualities, but perhaps also by those commentators in papers concerned by this form of legislation. I’d still recommend reserving judgement (whilst agreeing with the ideals of the post).

“Indeed! In fact, it was a very special version of the iylismwdyglt principle where I should apparently leave this free-speech-supporting country if I like free speech so much!”

Leave it if your against it yes, I know this does not register to you as your a spinless twat but there we go, continue to talk about life.

78. Chaise Guevara

@ 73 X

“Not quite but its normally an indication of suspected wrong doing, whats wrong are you afraid you cant say what you want without consequence?”

So you’re retracting your claim that “the law” says I’m wrong purely because the police arrested this guy? You’re now admitting that it’s only an “indication of suspected wrongdoing”, not proof of guilt?

Yes or no on this one, please. And if the answer is “yes”, an apology would be appropriate.

“Godforbid one cant publicly wish for the death of soldiers in there host country what are they going to ban next shitting in eachothers faces in the middle of the streets?”

Yeah, because expressing an unpleasant opinion is TOTALLY analogous to shitting in someone’s face. Well done.

“As I am waiting for court, as stated, its fairly obvious I have made my mind up, that he has done wrong is but my opinion which is shared by the authoritys,an opinion that currently has a little much punch than yours.”

By the authorities you presumably mean the cops, not the people who actually determine guilt? Totally irrelevant. As for their opinion having more “punch” than mine… there’s this concept called “ad hominem”, I don’t know if anyone’s ever explained it to you?

“No, I am not like you im not after that. There are many differences in the people of society, im allowed to feel sorry for you.”

You are indeed. It’s horribly misplaced, but it’s up to you. And I’ll keep laughing at you for being totally unaware that you’re a bear of very little brain.

This is the first article of Sunnys’ I have agreed with. This country has gone mad.

Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first send mad.

“The Country” can’t go mad. It’s a land mass.

The people within a country certainly can go mad on an individual basis. But since madness is a relative and subjective assessment, if *everyone* goes mad at the same time, it will not be noticeable, since madness is normal behaviour.

The country has not gone mad. The people in it, some of them, are just being silly. Irrational, frightened and hysterical. Not true madness. It will pass.

Some, like the EDL, want to blame “multiculturalism”. Fine. That’s the form in which their own fear and hysteria takes form. I therefore propose the following model by way of explanation.

Dogs + Cats / Living Together = Mass Hysteria.

The solution? Wait a while, calm down dearest and don’t be silly.

Everything will be fine. Promise.

“You are indeed. It’s horribly misplaced, but it’s up to you. And I’ll keep laughing at you for being totally unaware that you’re a bear of very little brain.”

Unaware? Lol I add my comment changing the context a bit, saying lets imagine this were a white spinning the usual race crap, you be so up in arms then, and as usual you run in ” you havent got a clue!” ” im so much better and more aware than you!!”

“Yeah, because expressing an unpleasant opinion is TOTALLY analogous to shitting in someone’s face. Well done.”

But the guy with his comments is shitting in the faces of all those disfigured and dead, plus there familys, if your of society involves shitting in the faces of those willing to die to make it, you can stick it firmly up your ass, im glad the authoritys agree.

Given the rubbish law that states that offense is determined by anyone out there who reads (or hears) the statement I think the UK is becoming quickly a police state.

Hey what’s that? A large group of Police officers has just knocked at my door.

” it is a powerful argument for democratic control of police forces (ie a bunch of people looking at their actions) ”

Shouldn’t the “democratic control of police forces” mean “laws” and the “a bunch of people looking at their actions” is ultimately the parliament?

I mean, I hope you don’t mean such populist and short-sighted things as elected police chiefs and even prosecutors, as in many parts of the USA?

83. Chaise Guevara

@ 80 x

“Unaware? Lol I add my comment changing the context a bit, saying lets imagine this were a white spinning the usual race crap, you be so up in arms then, and as usual you run in ” you havent got a clue!” ” im so much better and more aware than you!!” ”

To be fair, x, I AM much better and more aware than you, as is everyone else on this thread. I’m not the one who’s changed his mind but won’t admit it, or who makes ridiculous assumptions about people, or who can’t see why a racist attack would count as “racist”. Or who thinks “If you don’t like it why don’t you fuck off to another country” is an argument. Or who trolls every thread on LC just to prove what a nasty little cunt they are. The list goes on.

“But the guy with his comments is shitting in the faces of all those disfigured and dead, plus there familys,”

Y’see, what’s happened there is you’ve confused a metaphor with reality. Here’s some revision for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

“if your of society involves shitting in the faces of those willing to die to make it, you can stick it firmly up your ass,”

Sorry, who’s dying to “make” society? Anyhoo, my idea of society doesn’t involve that, which you’d know already if you could read.

“im glad the authoritys agree.”

I love the way you’ve decided a few (or possibly even one) police officer is “the authoritys” on a subject they in fact have no authority over, just because it appears to support your position. You’re on rock-solid ground there, kid!

To be fair, x, I AM much better and more aware than you, as is everyone else on this thread”

If one were to be better than another in any meaningful way, theyd not tell them about it.

“I’m not the one who’s changed his mind but won’t admit it, or who makes ridiculous assumptions about people, or who can’t see why a racist attack would count as “racist”. ”

Quote all of those for me.

“Or who thinks “If you don’t like it why don’t you fuck off to another country” is an argument.

Wasent an argument, it was a suggested action, something im aware may be very very foreign to you. To much of your life spent talking and moaning to realize you can still act in the world, point being if you dont agree with the wars your country enagages in and you feel so deeply about it, instead of financing them and living your cosy life of comfort here to moan on facebook about it all, actually have some intergerity and take the only action you can..leave…

“Y’see, what’s happened there is you’ve confused a metaphor with reality. Here’s some revision for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

What ever, your silly little word games, shitting in your face = showing a huge amount of disrepespect and disreguard for feelings.

“Sorry, who’s dying to “make” society? Anyhoo, my idea of society doesn’t involve that, which you’d know already if you could read.”

No one gives a fuck about your idea of society, you are nothing. We must make do with what we have.

“I love the way you’ve decided a few (or possibly even one) police officer is “the authoritys” on a subject they in fact have no authority over, just because it appears to support your position. You’re on rock-solid ground there, kid!”

Supports my positon of what? That to call for the death of soldiers in the host country is a bad fucking idea and will land you in the shit? With the amount of cases droped daily because the cps cant be assed you are really naive enough to think this is all down to one officer?

I love the way you’ve decided no matter what charge or rulling, its all wrong, no matter what, because thats the way it suits you, kid!

And whats the thing with the soldiers all of a sudden? One goes haywire and instantly the tens of thousands to pass through there are all scum in your eyes?

Are you all aware how long this war has been going on, and how each of us is responsible for it taking place? You know, its our gov..

86. Chaise Guevara

@ x

“If one were to be better than another in any meaningful way, theyd not tell them about it.”

Normally, I’d agree, but I think we’re beyond courtesy, don’t you?

“Quote all of those for me.”

Fine. Ridiculous assumptions: your first post. Changing your mind: first saying that the law says he’s committed a crime, then saying “From a legal stand point im sorry you will have to wait for court” @68. Not understanding about racism: post 80, among others, where you’ve implied it would be somehow hypocritical for someone to react differently if he’s mouthed off about “pakis”, even though half the point is that the offence is defined as “racial”.

I pointed all of these out at the time; again, some reading on your part would be beneficial.

“Wasent an argument, it was a suggested action, something im aware may be very very foreign to you. To much of your life spent talking and moaning to realize you can still act in the world”

I absolutely LOVE it when someone holding up one end of the conversation has a go at the other guy for talking. It’s so precious.

“point being if you dont agree with the wars your country enagages in and you feel so deeply about it, instead of financing them and living your cosy life of comfort here to moan on facebook about it all, actually have some intergerity and take the only action you can..leave… ”

Point one: when have I said anything about whether or not I agree with our wars?
Point two: I don’t see why I should leave a country that I like just because I object to a few aspects of it. Especially as I can’t think of a better place to live.
Point three: I hope I don’t ever see you complaining about Britain or how we spend tax money. If so, I’d be forced to bring this up to show you were a hypocrite.

“What ever, your silly little word games”

So your definition of a word game is “not lying”. Interesting!

“shitting in your face = showing a huge amount of disrepespect and disreguard for feelings.”

True, unless the people involved are into that. But showing a huge amount of disrespect does not always involve shitting in someone’s face.

“No one gives a fuck about your idea of society, you are nothing. We must make do with what we have.”

That’s nice. It was really cool the way you dodged the question there. You’re my hero.

And why do you say we should “make do with what we have” when you think that anyone who doesn’t think that “what we have” is perfect should leave the country? Try to stay consistent, at least within a single post.

“Supports my positon of what? That to call for the death of soldiers in the host country is a bad fucking idea and will land you in the shit?”

That it should be illegal. If he was calling on people to KILL soldiers I’d agree that it should be illegal, although it still wouldn’t be racist.

“With the amount of cases droped daily because the cps cant be assed you are really naive enough to think this is all down to one officer?”

Is the CPS pursuing it, then? Doesn’t matter, because the CPS doesn’t have authority either,

“I love the way you’ve decided no matter what charge or rulling, its all wrong, no matter what, because thats the way it suits you, kid!”

Once again, your writing is unfathomable. What doe you mean “no matter what charge”? What is “all wrong”? How does it “suit” me?

@ x 85

“And whats the thing with the soldiers all of a sudden? One goes haywire and instantly the tens of thousands to pass through there are all scum in your eyes?

Are you all aware how long this war has been going on, and how each of us is responsible for it taking place? You know, its our gov..”

Honest question: who are you actually talking to? Could be me, except I don’t think soldiers are scum. Could be the OP, but that doesn’t say soldiers are scum either. Are you addressing Azhar Ahmed directly? Because I doubt he gets WiFi in his cell.

“Normally, I’d agree, but I think we’re beyond courtesy, don’t you?”

Either way its just your ego screaming.

“Ridiculous assumptions: your first post”

I see nothing ridiculous in the assumption that people will generally react in a negative manner to an individual who is saying all pakis should die.

“Changing your mind: first saying that the law says he’s committed a crime, then saying “From a legal stand point im sorry you will have to wait for court”

Correct – you are arrested for commiting a crime to be tried in court, the legal outcome of said court case provides the legal stand point, guilty or not guilty, how is this hard for you to understand:S.

So yes, he has been arrested for a crime but we will not know the outcome until court, simple stuff…

“Not understanding about racism: post 80, among others, where you’ve implied it would be somehow hypocritical for someone to react differently if he’s mouthed off about “pakis””

Incorrect, it would be perfectly natural to react in a negative manner to an indvidual mouthing off about pakis, whats hypocritical is you lot giving this case the golden hand shake of approval, if its a pakistani for instance you hit the roof, if its just a load of english boys? You dont give a dam and you make it all about the offenders rights.

“I absolutely LOVE it when someone holding up one end of the conversation has a go at the other guy for talking. It’s so precious.”

Unable to respond to what was written I see.

“Point one: when have I said anything about whether or not I agree with our wars?”

“AND if you like sunny want to support extremists who go against those who serve the country you live in, maybe you should fuck off and find another country…”

And…And…And.. IF( the following applys to you, take note) And…And…..And

“Point two: I don’t see why I should leave a country that I like just because I object to a few aspects of it. Especially as I can’t think of a better place to live.”

If the slaughter of innocent civilians with arms and munitions paid for direcrtly by you as a tax payer can be reduced to “objecting to a few aspects of the country” then personally I can see you dont have a problem in that department, how ever if one did all I suggest is to actualy something about it, whats the problem?

“Point three: I hope I don’t ever see you complaining about Britain or how we spend tax money. If so, I’d be forced to bring this up to show you were a hypocrite.”

Spend it how you like its no longer mine.

“That’s nice. It was really cool the way you dodged the question there. You’re my hero.”

It must catch on;)

@85

Are you all aware how long this war has been going on, and how each of us is responsible for it taking place? You know, its our gov.

Nope, sorry, not going to wash. Citizens of a nation that is in no way shape or form a direct democracy are NOT responsible for the actions of it’s government.

89. Chaise Guevara

@ 87 x

“I see nothing ridiculous in the assumption that people will generally react in a negative manner to an individual who is saying all pakis should die.”

Yes, but it is ridiculous to a) pretend that the categories “soldier” and “paki” are equivalent in a case specifically about race, and b) assume that people who say the first should be covered by freedom of speech would react completely differently if the target were Pakistanis or Muslims.

“Correct – you are arrested for commiting a crime to be tried in court, the legal outcome of said court case provides the legal stand point, guilty or not guilty, how is this hard for you to understand:S.”

No, really? You mean, being arrested DOESN’T mean he’s broken the law???!!! I’m certainly glad that’s understood by all sides now!

Unfounded accusations are bad enough; accusing me of the things you’re guilty of is utterly pathetic.

“So yes, he has been arrested for a crime but we will not know the outcome until court, simple stuff…”

So simple that I had to explain it to you, yes. Are you admitting you retract your original statement? The one you carefully removed from my post before replying?

“Incorrect, it would be perfectly natural to react in a negative manner to an indvidual mouthing off about pakis, whats hypocritical is you lot giving this case the golden hand shake of approval, if its a pakistani for instance you hit the roof, if its just a load of english boys? You dont give a dam and you make it all about the offenders rights. ”

This is your fundamental problem in this thread (well, one of them): your inability to distinguish between “I approve of this” and “I think this should not be illegal”. Golden handshake indeed! The guy in question is a nasty little prick, no argument there. I just don’t think prickery should be a jailable offence.

“Unable to respond to what was written I see.”

I responded to what you wrote. Learn. To. Read.

“And…And…And.. IF( the following applys to you, take note) And…And…..And”

Fair enough.

“If the slaughter of innocent civilians with arms and munitions paid for direcrtly by you as a tax payer can be reduced to “objecting to a few aspects of the country” then personally I can see you dont have a problem in that department”

Why haven’t you moved, then? And what would either of us achieve by doing so, as opposed to staying and voting for less gung-ho politicians? And where would either of us move to that would leave our consciences clear as citizens?

I’m not to blame for the government’s actions, and my tax contribution to the armed services is essentially nil. I’m not going to be hounded out just because I don’t like certain policies, even ones as serious as this.

” how ever if one did all I suggest is to actualy something about it, whats the problem?”

Can’t read this.

“Spend it how you like its no longer mine.”

Eh? Are you saying taxes paid are no longer yours? Because if so, that would apply to us both, wouldn’t it?

“It must catch on;)”

I hope it doesn’t. You’re bad enough, we don’t want another x on this thread.

90. Chaise Guevara

Oh, and x: I notice you again ignored several parts of my post, including direct questions. Glad to see you’re keeping the torch of intellectual honesty burning!

john b @43

The Spiked link doesn’t work, which is probably just as well. Here’s a piece on the Scottish sectarianism thing from somewhere a bit saner.

The link you did from the Independent was by the main Spiked guy on this subject.

The SNP’s offensive against free speech

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/11895/

We need free speech for all – even bigots

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/11337/

I believe in free speech too but I don’t remember seeing Liberal Conspiracy making all this fuss when two white boys got four years for posting about a riot that never even happened. Nor for the atrocious treatment meted out to Emma West over Christmas just for not respecting all that diversity in her face (and since then has had charges added for causing ‘distress’). Why are they taking so long about her trial anyway, are they hoping we will meantime forget or lose interest? Because we wont.
What a joke this country has become since the progressives took over.

Will you ever stop failing to address an argument in your responses Sunny ?

(Answer – No. In AJP Taylor’s approximate words, “the best way to support an unsupportable argument or assertion is never to offer any evidence in its defence”)

94. Chaise Guevara

@ 92 Dave

“I believe in free speech too but I don’t remember seeing Liberal Conspiracy making all this fuss when two white boys got four years for posting about a riot that never even happened. Nor for the atrocious treatment meted out to Emma West over Christmas just for not respecting all that diversity in her face (and since then has had charges added for causing ‘distress’). ”

It helps if you, y’know, bother to look: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/12/08/are-brits-too-quick-to-take-offence-and-condemn/

I think I remember LC covering the facebook riot cases too, but having trouble finding the article (either I’m wrong, or LC’s search function is as crap as I think it is).

As far as West goes, at least, you should at least check your whataboutery is accurate before engaging in it.

95. Chaise Guevara

@ 93 Laban

Heh, nice one.

Personally I think what he said is disgusting whether racist or not he should still get some form of warning or more for what he said. Facebook isn’t there for public slander it’s a social network. I’m sure Facebook also has its own equality and diversity rules as do most websites, places of work etc. this sort of shit needs to stop. People like him ruin it for the rest of the community. I know Muslims that would be disgusted at his comments. I would be ashamed to know someone so narrow minded.


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    English Defence League expected at trial of teenager charged with 'racial aggravation' towards soldiers http://t.co/R6IbXLG3 (see updates)

  3. Tom Holmes

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  8. Islamic-Dictionary

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  9. Islamic-Dictionary

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  10. Luke Pagarani

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  11. Luke Pagarani

    Stunning definition of "racial": http://t.co/3VBK4bMn

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  16. Horatio Von Smash

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  17. Brian Harris

    'Not making your point very well' now a criminal offence, apparently. FFS. http://t.co/1r1muZWY

  18. Lucian 'Bar-don'

    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

  19. Elizabeth

    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

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    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

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    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

  22. Iain McGill

    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

  23. anna-rose phipps

    RT @libcon: Teenager charged with 'racial aggravation' for soldiers comment http://t.co/cfsYqDmk

  24. representingthemambo

    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

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    When I complain about people getting arrested/charged far too quickly for online msgs, I do so b/c of stuff like this http://t.co/eRoQwBn3

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    RT @sunny_hundal: This is very troubling: Muslim teenager charged with 'racial aggravation' for FB comment on soldiers http://t.co/xR0drea

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