Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS


by Newswire    
3:06 pm - March 10th 2012

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But just to clarify:

Libdem members will still debate the NHS Bill tomorrow but it seems more unlikely now they will push to drop the Bill.

But for Nick clegg, a vote against Shirley Williams’ pro-NHS bill motion is less embarrassing than a straight vote to say the bill should be dropped.

That said, even if Libdem members were to push to drop the NHS Bill, it is unlikely the government would have listened to them.

This short video details how money will seep into private hands through the bill

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Let’s hope British voters approve obliteration of Lib Dems in 2015…

2. Churm Rincewind

“LibDems approve obliteration of the NHS”. No they don’t, and no they haven’t. That statement is just silly. Why do so many people find it so hard to debate anything connected with the NHS without reverting to dimwitted sloganeering?

Or is this just another variant of Godwin’s law?

Shorter Lib Dems “Clegg’s reputation is more important than the NHS”

These people are pure evil.

All the signs are that many Tories are feathering their own nests !

This will end up the Greatest Swindle in British History that has happened right under our noses and it’s all legal.

Legalized Criminality is the reality.

Or is this just another variant of Godwin’s law?

The law being that the longer a debate on the NHS goes on the likelihood of someone mentioning Hitler rises?

Those of you who want the state to run everything, what’s your complaint? You don’t like what you getting from the current governmental incumbants? Well, that’s the problem with the system you support. Eat your ladleful of gruel, and like it.

7. Martin Young

Can we stop calling them LibDems and rename then ToryLight (like Miller Light – a very toxic brew)

“LibDems approve obliteration of the NHS”.

The sky is falling in!

9. the a&e charge nurse

[6] “Those of you who want the state to run everything, what’s your complaint?”.

Oh, that’s easy – a complete lack of mandate for a £3 billion restructuring that will lead to the biggest upheaval in our health system since the NHS was introduced.

All this despite the fact the architects of this dogs-dinner could not even attract enough votes to form a government outright, and despite the fact public services are operating in a climate of financial austerity.

Hell, the tories did not even have the bottle to mention the bill in their pre-election manifesto, while tory boy is on record as promising NO MORE top down reorganisations – the complete opposite of what he went on to do!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH2EmVGowCk

Well, the Libdems voted against Shirley Williams’ bill despite being urged to vote for. They’re claiming they’ve now empowered Clegg and Libdem peers to be able to more effectively oppose the bill.

He doesn’t actually oppose it though.

Silly libdums.

@ 9,

well, let that be a lesson to you, that when you support a system that vests so much power in a central authority, it may use such all-encompassing power in ways you don’t like.

It could never happen in a free market.

“It could never happen in a free market.”

what. like the free markets of the railways, energy companies, banking…

13. the a&e charge nurse

[11] are you saying that monopolies do not arise in the market?

You know what, why can’t Liberal Conspiracy f*** off and take its misleading headlines with it?

Lib Dem conference reps didn’t have their say on the NHS bill until today – and to those of us who oppose the NHS bill it’s bloody insulting to see a headline accusing us of having voted to obliterate the NHS when the vote was not about that at all. It was about which motion to select for debate.

Today, when reps did vote on the motion dealing with the NHS, they voted against the leadership to strike out clauses committing the party to supporting the NHS bill.

So, whoever writes LC’s misleading and insulting headlines, kindly go f*** yourself.

14 Typical Lie Dem waffle.
We will see how the spineless mps vote at Westminster. So far they have shown themselves to be deceitful, duplicitous, and lacking in integrity. I turn the volume down on my tv when Clegg comes on. The man is a liar, and a traitor to his party and the people who voted for him.

Wheels within wheels.Try this in the news:

Thatcherites will be appalled. Michael Heseltine, the man who brought down their heroine, has returned to Whitehall where he is working happily alongside Vince Cable. “Michael Heseltine has an office down here,” the Liberal Democrat business secretary says as he waves in the direction of a long corridor on the top floor of his department.

With a mischievous twinkle in his eye, Cable explains why he is working so well with the One Nation Tory who promised to intervene before breakfast, lunch and tea when he held the same post in the 1990s. “Michael’s very much up for this pro-active [approach] and he’s been very supportive,” he says.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/mar/09/vince-cable-michael-heseltine-karl-marx?newsfeed=true

Those with longish political memories will recall that in 2002 Vince Cable wanted to abolish the DTI. So after the 2010 election the DTI was renamed the Department of BIS and Vince Cable became the secretary of state. As Shakespeare put it, a rose by any other name . . .

Of course, Heseltine is a man with his finger on the pulse. This is what he had to say about joining the Euro last Novermber: “Former Deputy Prime Minister Lord Heseltine has said he still expects the UK to eventually join the euro.” [BBC website]

That is bound to please the LibDems who wanted Britain to join the Eurozone at the very earliest opportunity. Just before the 2001 election, Charles Kennedy, the LibDem leader at the time, said it was a missed opportunity.

@ 13

“are you saying that monopolies do not arise in the market?”

No, I didn’t say that. Indeed we are all monopolists of our own unique selves. The difference between my little monopoly and the state’s is that I have no power of compulsion to force everyone to pay me, whether they want my services or not.

@17: “The difference between my little monopoly and the state’s is that I have no power of compulsion to force everyone to pay me, whether they want my services or not.”

The NHS does face limited competition from private health care services and there is a small but growing take-up of private health care insurance to finance private medical services when needed. Some folk use both the NHS and the private sector depending on the immediate medical issues, urgency, the expected risks and quality of care, costs and whether they would exceed their annual cost limit etc. For older patients, it is prohibitively expensive to take up private insurance anew but for the young and relatively affluent it is a feasible – and prudent? – option.

The state does not prevent anyone from signing up for private health care insurance but this still amounts to only a small percentage of total spending on health care. Basically, most Brits have preferred and do prefer to rely mostly or entirely on the NHS – as does Cameron by his own claim. There is no serious political campaign to enable individuals to opt out of the NHS.

Instructive comparisons are between health care services in Britain and other west European countries. America is usually – and rightly IMO – upheld as an outlier model to be avoided.

It may come as a terrible cultural shock to many but credit for first implementing a social insurance scheme for personal health care costs goes not to Britain for creating the NHS in 1948 but to Count Otto von Bismarck, first Chancellor of the German Empire. He also has the credit for first launching a state pension scheme.

“The Health Insurance bill . . was passed in 1883. The program was considered the least important from Bismarck’s point of view, and the least politically troublesome. The program was established to provide health care for the largest segment of the German workers. The health service was established on a local basis, with the cost divided between employers and the employed. The employers contributed 1/3rd, while the workers contributed 2/3rds . The minimum payments for medical treatment and Sick Pay for up to 13 weeks were legally fixed.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

@ 18,

“Instructive comparisons are between health care services in Britain and other west European countries. America is usually – and rightly IMO – upheld as an outlier model to be avoided.”

I agree that it if far better to look at France, Germany etc., than the USA, for comparisons. I don’t think the Amercan system is well-understood. It certainly isn’t free market and hasn’t been for about 50 years or more. The problem is, the NHS is such a sacred cow, no politician dares even suggest reform on a German or French model, as this would be painted in the most lurid colours.

“It may come as a terrible cultural shock to many but credit for first implementing a social insurance scheme for personal health care costs goes not to Britain for creating the NHS in 1948 but to Count Otto von Bismarck”

No shock to me. That was the model for state socialism. The state school system comes from the same place. Rather than seeing Otto in a better light, this should give pause for thought. (I think Mussolini pioneered a few welfare measures as well)

@19 Trooper: “The problem is, the NHS is such a sacred cow, no politician dares even suggest reform on a German or French model, as this would be painted in the most lurid colours.”

That is probably true – rational discussion about NHS reform is verging on impossible in Britain but that is a likely consequence when the NHS employs c.1.4 million people, the largest single employer in western Europe.

The most potent argument against the large scale structural reformsof the NHS currently being proposed by the coalition government is that the NHS is being simultaneously required to make efficiency savings in health care services amounting to getting on for 20pc of the annual budget when the structural reforms alone are estimated to cost c. £2 to 3 billion to implement. Despite repeated assurances, patients simply don’t believe the official claims that the quality of health care won’t be adversely affected by the combination of the upheaval and the so-called efficiency savings.

A Swedish health care think-tank reports that in its surveys of consumer satisfaction of health care services in western Europe, the NHS is rated as fairly mediocre in the comparisons between national health care systems. Defenders of the NHS naturally point to Britain spending a relatively smaller share of GDP on healthcare compared with SOME other west European countries:
http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf

@19: Trooper: “No shock to me. That was the model for state socialism. ”

Bismarck had no “leftist” or radical pretentions whatsoever but he can be rightfully regarded as a founding father of the European Social Market Model. However, that is not regarded as a “socialist” model in European politics. Christian Democrat and other centre-right parties in Europe have repeatedly protected and progressed respective national Social Market Models – it would have been political suicide not to. As remarked in previous threads, the relevant distinction is made by Andre Sapir between the Nordic, Mediterrean, Continental and Anglo-Saxon models – see his paper: Globalization and the Reform of European Social Models (2006).

Denmark and Sweden have been confirmed as the highest taxed OECD countries and they have among the most equally distributed incomes among the affluent OECD countries. Both are also among the more affluent countries in Europe so it can hardly be argued that their high taxes have been crippling. Indeed, surveys of their voters show a willingness to pay taxes for the welfare benefits.

Those with longish political memories will recall that in 2002 Vince Cable wanted to abolish the DTI. So after the 2010 election the DTI was renamed the Department of BIS and Vince Cable became the secretary of state.

Not so much longish as defective. The DTI was renamed DBERR in 2007, which itself became DBIS in 2009. Must provide employment for the signwriters of Whitehall after all.

@21: “The DTI was renamed DBERR in 2007, which itself became DBIS in 2009. Must provide employment for the signwriters of Whitehall after all.”

Fair enough – but Shakespeare was right about roses. As Vince Cable has discovered, the Department of BIS does have substantive functions which would be absorbed by other departments in the event of its demise.

However, I must say that any influence of Cable’s recent speech about the absence of a “compelling vision” for Britain’s economic future beyond sorting out the budget deficit seems to have been pretty minimal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17276201

The prospect of a compelling vision is hugely exciting, naturally, but any hints as to what it might be would have added credibility. In fact, I don’t think we have been short on compelling visions, lots of them – about cheap electricity from nuclear power, creating a challenge to IBM through ICL, the Concord airliner, Acorn’s BBC computer project, resurrecting British Leyland with £3bn of taxpayers’ money, the Selby coalfield, Silicon Glenn etc. I suspect Patricia Hewitt’s ill-fated project of spending £12+ bn on a national database of personal medical records was intended as much to give a boost to computer services as to benefit the NHS from computerised records.

Cable was also pressing for the break up of RBS to create a British Business Bank, which seems to have died a sudden death. The Labour Party had borrowed the idea of a National Investment Bank/Board from Mussolini:

“However it was with the idea of a state planning agency that [Stuart] Holland [Labour MP for Vauxhall, Lambeth 1979-89, political assistant in Downing St to the PM 1967/8, and shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury 1987-9] hoped to show the new possibilities open to a more just economy. He looked to the Italian example of the IRI (the Industrial Reconstruction Institute), set up by Mussolini and used by subsequent Italian governments to develop the economy. This had, of course, already been tried through the IRC (the Industrial Reorganization Corporation) set up as part of [Britain's] National Plan in 1966, but the IRC had been too small to have much effect on the British economy. A revamped IRC in the form of a National Enterprise Board would, however, have a major effect in stimulating the private sector through an active policy of state intervention and direction.”
Geoffrey Foote: The Labour Party’s Political Thought: A History (Palgrave 3rd edition (1997)) p.311.

23. Bernard Little

If anyone tells me the NHS reforms are not about handing our health service to corporate interests I would urge them to watch this video. It seems that as soon as Labour, Conservative or LibDem gets anywhere near power they cave into big business interests. The pervasiveness of these lobbying groups and their backers is very frightening. We need to strengthen democracy at all level of our lives to stop the final corporate take over of our lives.

Thank you for this footage.

24. Chaise Guevara

@ 11 Trooper

“It could never happen in a free market.”

No.

Because there wouldn’t be a bloody NHS in a free market.

Well done.

19
I’d never thought of Bismark as a socialist and indeed he was not, the ‘Count’ in his name, gives a strong clue to his political leaning. Certainly, there are many overlapping ideas between many political movements, (there is another thread comparing the BNP with UKIP) which illustrates this point
The reasons for many of Bismark’s social policies can be understood by the fact that Germany was a newly unified state which needed to be fast tracked to catch-up with the longer established states. Indeed all modern newly industrialized countries have rellied on central state planning.
The welfare state, and more precisely the NHS, was the product of capitalism and is more akin to the paternalistic leanings of conservatism, hence your comparison with Bismark is relevant, but not for the reasons you give.
As Hayek points out, it is the road to serfdom.
Socialism is no such thing.

Go play games Friv juegos ok
Thank you


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. sueworld

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS – Liberal Conspiracy. http://t.co/5qToKpl1

  2. sueworld

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS – Liberal Conspiracy. http://t.co/5qToKpl1

  3. NORBET

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/CCih9qHu via @libcon

  4. NORBET

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/CCih9qHu via @libcon

  5. Anna Branston

    RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/V06cCfaV <~ and therefore their own

  6. Anna Branston

    RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/V06cCfaV <~ and therefore their own

  7. Pucci D

    The conniving bastards. RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the #NHS http://t.co/1Jvc2bY7 #fb

  8. Pucci D

    The conniving bastards. RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the #NHS http://t.co/1Jvc2bY7 #fb

  9. Peter Clutton

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS – Liberal Conspiracy. http://t.co/5qToKpl1

  10. Peter Clutton

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS – Liberal Conspiracy. http://t.co/5qToKpl1

  11. liane gomersall

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/mcvSO9t9 via @libcon

  12. liane gomersall

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/mcvSO9t9 via @libcon

  13. Jeannine Smith

    Includes interesting video about health lobbies. Worth a watch. RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/IGSOeKoI

  14. Jeannine Smith

    Includes interesting video about health lobbies. Worth a watch. RT @libcon: Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/IGSOeKoI

  15. Steve Glover

    For shame! Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/HNWzLbEh

  16. Jay Thompson

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS http://t.co/vO1oOFRu

  17. andrew

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy: Libdem members will still debate the NHS Bill tomo… http://t.co/NqsfO4BQ

  18. David Davies

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS ~ http://t.co/OdG7kD9p

  19. Grainne McMahon

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS ~ http://t.co/OdG7kD9p

  20. Izzy Koksal

    Brilliant video here on private health companies lobbying the government – lots of targets #blockthebillbuilders http://t.co/qY1WdeEQ

  21. Andreas Baader

    Brilliant video here on private health companies lobbying the government – lots of targets #blockthebillbuilders http://t.co/qY1WdeEQ

  22. Gillian Kalter

    Libdems approve obliteration of the NHS | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/PjRVQQxL via @libcon Excellent 15 min video.

  23. Peter Pannier

    Brilliant video here on private health companies lobbying the government – lots of targets #blockthebillbuilders http://t.co/qY1WdeEQ

  24. Daniel Pitt

    Fib Dumbs approve dismantling of NHS for private profit despite 62% public opposition http://t.co/5KfjTJaZ VERMIN!

  25. It’s up to us to save the NHS « Izzy Koksal

    [...] this video here to see the close proximity that private health companies have with politicians http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/03/10/libdems-approve-obliteration-of-the-nhs/) – but they are clearly scared of the public reaction to [...]

  26. Bernard Little

    Watch the "nhs lobby tour" video. Its truly shocking! http://t.co/dIhN7hgS

  27. Peter Garbutt

    Watch the "nhs lobby tour" video. Its truly shocking! http://t.co/dIhN7hgS





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