Sun slammed for “hunting” pregnant man


9:34 am - February 17th 2012

by Newswire    


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The Sun newspaper has been slammed by the charity Trans Media Watch for institgating a “hunt” for a pregnant man.

Paris Lees from TMW said the Sun was harassing the individual:

Is it in the public interest if a private individual chooses to become pregnant? Quite frankly, this person’s gender identity is nobody else’s business – and certainly not cause for a national phone-in.

The Sun has urged its readers to call a hotline and expose the man’s identity.

The move has led to heightened anxiety in the trans community.

There are trans men around the country who’ve been living in fear for the past few days, scared they could be paraded as freaks on the Sun’s front page. What right does a newspaper have to make innocent members of the public feel this way?

TMW has taken its complaint to the PCC, saying the Sun breaches the PCC Editors’ Code in four areas: privacy, harassment, protection of children, and discrimination.

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Reader comments


I think it would be news for a man to be pregnant, if only for the science involved.

Im confused, how can a man be pregnant? Is this person biologically a woman who claims to be a man or is it a man born with a functioning female reproductive organs.

PS, your link is incorrect to the trans site, I assume its missing an a from media.

Not that Im trying to force anyone to conform to “correct” spelling or anything.

@Dave He is a transgender man who has not completed his medical transition so he still has female organs and is able to bear children. He just wants to live his life and not be a spectacle.

@Cherub This is not so unusual that there need to be cases covered to death in the media. Here’s a wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_pregnancy#Transgender_people

Cheers Jaye. Biology isn’t my strong suit but I should have guessed that really.

I see, I was assuming it was about a genetically male person, being perhaps too literal. That’s why it’s not in the scientific press then.

OK, Carry on kicking The Sun, They deserve it.

7. Chaise Guevara

Have we got a link to the Sun story – or a scan of the paper if it was only in the hard copy? I can’t imagine how they’d come out of this looking like anything other than inhuman bastards, but we may as well have a source.

@7 agreed – The first link doesn’t work and none is privided to the sun article. Seems strange really as I assume everyone visiting libcon has an internet connection.

9. Chaise Guevara

@ 8

Heh. BTW, I followed the first link, taking my cue from you and adding an “a” into the URL, but from a cursory glance I don’t think the story in question is actally up there. There certainly didn’t seem to be a “news” or “campaigns” page of any kind, it’s more like general info.

Cherub/6: I was assuming it was about a genetically male person

Just as people have more eye colours than “blue” and “brown”, despite what my GCSE Biology teacher claimed, the genetics of sexual differentiation are considerably more complex than is generally recognised. The easy simplification that men have XY genes and women XX genes is not correct (it works for most people, which is why it gets used, but it’s not the whole story).

You can have XX men and XY women quite easily. Because we don’t routinely do detailed genetic scans of people, the majority of them will probably never know that their genetic makeup is in the minority for people with the same sex as them.

There are several different characteristics that are strongly associated with a particular sex.
– genetic makeup
– internal reproductive organ layout
– external reproductive organ layout
– secondary sexual characteristics (hair, breasts, etc.)
– internal “sense” of what sex one personally is
– certain details of brain structure (closely but not absolutely correlated with the previous point)
– sex recorded by government agencies
– (at least one or two more than I can’t remember right now)
All of these can vary at least somewhat independently between people, and are generally not restricted to two distinct categories: there’s quite a range between the two most common points (record of government agencies usually excepted). Obviously not all of them are relevant to whether or not an individual can become pregnant.

For most people all of the characteristics match up and belong to the same neat category, and this happens often enough – around 99% of people – that the shorthand of “male genes” or “female sexual organs” is still commonplace. (For quite a few of the 1% of people for whom they don’t all fit in the same box, it’s quite possible that no-one, including the individual themselves, will be aware of this)

But it’s a quite massive over-simplification of reality. (Neither politicians nor journalists being known for their grasp of either science or nuance, it’s a simplification with massive ongoing harmful effects, too, as their reaction to “there are people who don’t fit our simple classification system” is generally “violently make them fit” rather than “adjust the classification system”)

11. Chaise Guevara

@ 10 cim

“Just as people have more eye colours than “blue” and “brown”, despite what my GCSE Biology teacher claimed”

Green, for a start!

Trusting teachers is dangerous. My junior school science teacher informed my brother than the Sun has no mass, and when he asked whether water molecules were wet she replied “they’re very small, so it doesn’t matter”.

Here’s the Sunt story: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4124499/Man-becomes-the-first-ever-in-the-UK-to-give-birth-to-baby.html

The article itself doesn’t seem especially offensive, but there is also the hunting box:

“DO you know the man? Call The Sun newsdesk on 020 7782 4103”

@10 cim
Bravo and thanks for the great explanation! I hope you don’t mind if I borrow it in the future. 🙂

@11 Chaise
Hehe, that reminded me of a line from the Monty Python Meaning of Life sketch set in the Zulu war …. “You see, a virus is what we doctors call “very, very small”. So small, it could not possibly have made off with the whole leg.”

14. Chaise Guevara

@ 13

LOL, I’d forgotten about that one.

@12 I saw that but didn’t think this was the story. Ive seen his face before and that was in the sun a couple of years ago when they first ran this story.

16. Chaise Guevara

@ 12 Larry

I guess it depends on what they plan to do with information received. Are they going to hound him or write stories based on hearsay, or are they just hoping to get his phone number?

Heh, is anyone else savouring the fact that it’s the Sunt’s laziness that’s kicked this one off with their ‘please do our job for us and be charged for the priviledge’ phone-in line bollox?

If this guy wants to remain anonymous then I would totally agree with bashing The Sun for this.

The American Thomas Beatie on the other hand (the one pictured in The Sun) really made himself into a freak show a few years back. Sending pictures around the world of himself shaving in the mirror with a big exposed pregnant belly. What were they meant to make of that in Pakistan and Nigeria? (where the pictures obviously went too).
He went on Oprah Winfrey and was on the front page of People magazine.
Which is fine and his right to do so, but it was a media storm about nothing because he was biologically female.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/120/51598875rc6.jpg/

I am not a fan of the way that the Trangender politics goes. It’s pushing the envelope by putting the ”cart before the horse” somewhat I find, and so, ends up being quite disingenuous – or mocking – of most people in the world who would think that ”a pregnant man” might be a sensationalist news story worth looking at.

@ 18 – What were they meant to make of that in Pakistan and Nigeria?

Dunno, who gives a fuck. I hear they don’t like gays either, should we stop mentioning them?

Seems to me this story is wrong for several reasons:

The sun doesnt appear to be hunting anyone
No one seems to have slammed them
If you’ve got female reproductive organs you are not a man

20. Chaise Guevara

@ dave

“The sun doesnt appear to be hunting anyone”

True, at least not in any way that seems like harrassment.

“No one seems to have slammed them”

Judging by the OP, Trans Media Watch have. Justified or otherwise.

“If you’ve got female reproductive organs you are not a man”

There’s a whole debate over this – whether gender is a different thing to sex and so on. However, I’d say that we all understand what is meant by phrases like “a man trapped in a woman’s body”. Ultimately, if someone with a female body who thinks of themselves as male prefers to call themselves a “man”, it seems churlish to argue with them based on the definitions you prefer.

One of the regulars at a pub I used to drink at was a pre-op male-to-female transexual. Most people called her “she”, which was what she preferred. Some of my friends called her “it”, making me want to thump them one.

@20 – I agree, and didn’t mention it to deliberatly hurt anyones feelings, and wouldn’t refer to anyone a sit.

however this mislead me (I am pretty thick) into thinking by some miracle a man was pregnant. In personal terms Id call someone whatever they wanted, but when were are trying to define scientifically it doesn’t work, for em anyway.

If I decided I was a snow leopard, I’d proably appreciate my friends refererring to me as one, and I would oblige them by showing them my anus and running off when something scared me, however if I then killed someone I wouldnt expect a paper to print a story claiming a snow leopard was on the loose killing people

Judging by the OP, Trans Media Watch have. Justified or otherwise.

Exactly – there was no mention on the transwatch site or the sun article. I like to judge facts based on evidence, even better if the evidence is as easy to produce as this should be.

All we have to go on is that someone/organisation/snow leopard called newswire says so.

Whatever the gender issue, its still a tabloid invading somebody’s privacy for fuck all good reason. If this was a transgendered MP who was campaigning against male pregnancy who’d got himself knocked up there’d be a public interest excuse but this is just prurience.

13/Jaye: There is, somewhere on the internet, a far better description, including examples of the sorts of variation, and my comment was based on what I remembered of that. But I can’t find it or even remember who wrote it now, so that’s not much use.

25. Chaise Guevara

@ Dave

“however this mislead me (I am pretty thick) into thinking by some miracle a man was pregnant. In personal terms Id call someone whatever they wanted, but when were are trying to define scientifically it doesn’t work, for em anyway.

If I decided I was a snow leopard, I’d proably appreciate my friends refererring to me as one, and I would oblige them by showing them my anus and running off when something scared me, however if I then killed someone I wouldnt expect a paper to print a story claiming a snow leopard was on the loose killing people”

OK, fair point.

“Exactly – there was no mention on the transwatch site or the sun article. I like to judge facts based on evidence, even better if the evidence is as easy to produce as this should be.”

It’s cited on Pink News as well: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/17/trans-media-charity-slams-attempt-to-expose-man-who-gave-birth/ . It’s entirely possible that the statement originated as a quote given to a journo over the phone, or a press release sent directly to news organisation. If Trans Media Watch have decided not to put it on their website (which is apparently the case), that’s as close to confimation as we’re likely to get.

@25 – Fair enough, this just seems to be very much like a Daily Mail “Outrage” or “Fury” kind of article.

27. Chaise Guevara

@ 26 Dave

Based on the info thus far, I agree. We haven’t been shown the Sun doing anything that’s actually objectionable (at least by my lights).

Dave @19

Dunno, who gives a fuck (about Palistan and Nigeria). I hear they don’t like gays either, should we stop mentioning them?
My point was really about the American guy who had been in the media all around the world. And that I presume we expect everyone in the world to be as au fait about a case like his (the man with the beard seven months pregnant) as liberals in the west.
Or else ”we” condemn them as being barbarians.
My point is that I think there is a conceit and dishonesty in the politics of LGBT – as most of the public in Britain, let alone the third world, really don’t understand the transgender issue fully. I certainly don’t.
But what I’ve found is that with the (smug) left, there’s a tendency to sneer and condemn first, and a reluctance to explaine their cause if it has some complications they don’t want to get into.
We get gay and lesbian pretty much these days. Bisexual maybe less, and transgender (I would say) not very well at all. yet they are all lumped together as LGBT.
And LGBT present themselves as a package and expect to be listened to as such.
More honesty and explaining is what is needed and less being ”superior” like those people on Channel 4’s ”10 O’Clock Live” show. (Charlie Brooker etc).

29. Chaise Guevara

@ 28 damon

Honest question: what do you need explained?

@28 – I understood your point Damon, I just don’t agree. Its pretty pathetic to live your life worrying about what a bunch of people in another country may or may not think.

I also doubt the story was printed on the basis that everyone would be accepting of it, after all im sure the sun would be delighted if aeveryone in Pakistan bought a copy just to burn it.

Finally you seem to be confusing yourself with “we”, in future it may be best to just present your own opinions rather than assuming everyone elses.

Chaise Guevara. You really have to be a bit of a liberal to be completely OK with LGBT.
Most of the world isn’t that liberal. So that makes them what? Homophobic bigots?
That does seem to be the way that LGBT has advanced their cause.
And I conceed it is a pretty efective way of moving a society foreward en-mass in quite a short time … like has happened.
You force the agenda and try to marginalise the really bigoted away from the mainstream of people. It does have it’s difficulties though as we can see from the lack of gay footballers debate. Where making it illegal to shout ”You’re gay” at a footabll match is seen by some as the way to go. I don’t btw.

Because there will always be a certain part of the wider culture that will see gay culture as being something different and perhaps worthy of a bit of pking fun at.
The same way that educated liberals will always laugh and sneer at inarticulate EDL-like ”muslamic rayguns” thick people.

”Genderqueer” is a part of transgender. What percentage of the population of western countries know anything about it though?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

But to be OK with ”LGBT” …..which is seen as prerequisite for not being labled a bigot these days, are you meant to be fully on top of all that? And be completely in agreement with it all? Cross dressing too? A man who likes to go out dressed as a woman on ocassion is part of the LGBT definition I think.

It’s quite a lot to demand that EVERYONE has to acceot that as completely ”normal”.
Even of our most conservative religious people – who are sometimes asked to sit down and talk with people from the LGBT movement.

And Dave, by ”we” I mean all those people who don’t want to be laughed at by comedian Stewart Lee and his kind for being ”backward neanderthals” or like Richard Littlejohn.

You really have to be a bit of a liberal to be completely OK with LGBT.
Most of the world isn’t that liberal. So that makes them what? Homophobic bigots?

Depends on what form ‘not OK’ takes really doesn’t it? In the past couple of years I’ve encountered 3 lgbt youths who were kicked out of the family home and cut off for coming out to their parents, and that’s in Blackpool and the surrounding area, which has a noticeable gay scene. Thank fuck for more liberal Grandparents, the local YMCA, and social services + housing benefits for each of the three respectively. My guess is that their families must have been somewhat quiet on the fact that they weren’t OK with LGBT for them to risk coming out to them (That and all three weren’t the types of guys who could hide it).

It’s quite a lot to demand that EVERYONE has to acceot that as completely ”normal”.

‘Normal’? Very subjective word that, for example it might be normal for Chaise to choose Nandos over KFC, whereas for yourself it might be normal for it to be t’other way round. What LGBT IS however, is uncommon, while heterosexuality and Cisgender identities are common, being gay on the other hand is normal for a gay person and so forth. Perhaps if people stopped using ‘normal’ when they mean ‘common’ then there wouldn’t be as much confusion.

And Dave, by ”we” I mean all those people who don’t want to be laughed at by comedian Stewart Lee and his kind for being ”backward neanderthals” or like Richard Littlejohn.

Very easy solution to this damon, though it does require you to not act in a way that attracts derision…

@4. Jaye: “@Dave He is a transgender man who has not completed his medical transition so he still has female organs and is able to bear children. He just wants to live his life and not be a spectacle.”

I think this a point that needs emphasising.

Gender reassignment surgery is an option for transexuals but it is possible to live as a transexual without surgery. My understanding of UK law is that a transexual can claim a new passport, for example, on the basis of identity rather than physical plumbing.

Depends on what form ‘not OK’ takes really doesn’t it?

”Not OK” might mean getting the gay bit, but not really getting all the aspects of transgender because it’s not explained as much to the general public.
Women for example who bind their breasts and make an effort to look like men. But obviously aren’t men, and are this ”genderqueer” category.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM6EDHWzyic

I happen to be ”OK” with whatever people want to be, but I think it’s understandable that not everyone is, because it’s not defined that well and described in full. In the popular press for example.

As for the word ”normal” I meant what is expected of us and what we are expected not to be also. We are expected not to be racist or homophobic. Being these things can even be crimes. By adding the T on to LGBT it means that we are expected to be completely understanding of the transgender issues – when I think they are actualy wide open for debate and nothing is actually yet decided. If a guy says he’s a man and is pregnant – then I think that is not only to be seen one way – or like ”trans activistis” might like to project it. Not everyone is going to accept he’s a real man, and why are these labels of gender so important anyway? Why do I have to accept that ”he” is a man at all?
Maybe allow it to be his official gender perhaps, but it should be OK for people to have their own thoughts on it without being called bigots. That’s all.

Very easy solution to this damon, though it does require you to not act in a way that attracts derision…

My point was though, that I don’t think these liberal lefty comedians, like the people on the Radio 4 News Quiz programme are people who necessairly hold the moral high ground. Even when they so obviously come across as thinking they do.
That 10 O’Clock Live show on Channel 4 is painful to watch they’re so smug.

Maybe trans just need to explain their issues better and not ride on the coat tails of Lesbians and gays so much. To be more proactive about it.

35. The Fourth Estate

The Sun needs to be defended against these unwarranted slurs.

This is clearly in the public interest as the public are interested. Here we have a situation where someone who was a woman and is becoming a man is having a sexual relationship with another man – this is clearly dangerous. What about the children? Any child will be confused. They could turn to radical religion to try to come to terms with their parentage, and may even become terrorists or suicide bombers as a result.

If this person has nothing to hide, then they have nothing to fear. This is clearly a case of liberal communist fascism, driven by a European Courts based human rights aganda trying to muzzle the freedom of our great British Press.

The police should be investigating this sort of thing rather than harrassing innocent journalists who are just doing their job.

Buy your copy of the wonderful Sun today.

Hail Rupert Murdoch, the saviour of our great nation.

Buy your copy of the wonderful Sun today.

I was with you up to that bit…………..

37. So Much For Subtlety

10. cim

Just as people have more eye colours than “blue” and “brown”, despite what my GCSE Biology teacher claimed, the genetics of sexual differentiation are considerably more complex than is generally recognised. The easy simplification that men have XY genes and women XX genes is not correct (it works for most people, which is why it gets used, but it’s not the whole story).

I would give you good odds there is no genetic relationship whatsoever where Trans people are concerned. There is no gene for trans-sexuality. No person with any special gene pattern is even more likely to identify as trans and so on. This is a psychological issue, not a genetic one.

There are several different characteristics that are strongly associated with a particular sex.
– genetic makeup
– internal reproductive organ layout
– external reproductive organ layout
– secondary sexual characteristics (hair, breasts, etc.)
– internal “sense” of what sex one personally is
– certain details of brain structure (closely but not absolutely correlated with the previous point)
– sex recorded by government agencies
– (at least one or two more than I can’t remember right now)
All of these can vary at least somewhat independently between people, and are generally not restricted to two distinct categories: there’s quite a range between the two most common points (record of government agencies usually excepted). Obviously not all of them are relevant to whether or not an individual can become pregnant.

I am not sure whether all of them, or even most of them, can vary between people. You mean the internal sense of what sex one is? Sure. Genetics? No. Reproductive organ layout – except for a small number of people who have the generic material from more than one individual in them – not really. And of course which of these is not important as to whether or not someone can become pregnant? Genetics? Sure. Internal reproductive organs? Absolutely. External reproductive organs? Less so, especially if there has been medical intervention. Secondary sexual characteristics in the absence of medical intervention? Hmm.

And there is no evidence of differences in brain linked to how a person feels about their gender. Despite decades of looking.

@34

”Not OK” might mean getting the gay bit, but not really getting all the aspects of transgender because it’s not explained as much to the general public.

The ‘general public’ once upon a time thought it reasonable to lock men up for being gay, some of those men are still with us with the ‘criminal record’ to prove it. Just because the general public is ignorant or maligned toward a particular minority group doesn’t give carte blanche toward pandering to that ignorance.

By adding the T on to LGBT it means that we are expected to be completely understanding of the transgender issues

Then you have no understanding of what lgbt actually is. Are you aware there is a massive ongoing debate (though ‘row’ is probably the correct word) over lgbt within the lesbian, gay, trans communities as well as academia? At it’s most basic it’s just a solidarity term for small often oppressed and persecuted minority groups to unite under, to each and all fight for the right to be classified and protected as an equal citizen and to live their life free from the maligned intentions of a privileged majority imposing its views on all.

Not everyone is going to accept he’s a real man, and why are these labels of gender so important anyway?

Well p’raps you and trans activists might have more in common than you think, I suspect if gender (not to be confused with sex) were obliterated entirely from our social conciousness they’d be quite pleased with the result. The reason why gender is so important is because as cim @10 mentioned

Neither politicians nor journalists being known for their grasp of either science or nuance, it’s a simplification with massive ongoing harmful effects, too, as their reaction to “there are people who don’t fit our simple classification system” is generally “violently make them fit” rather than “adjust the classification system”

gender roles get heavily policed. Though thankfully not here as much these days thanks to the collected efforts of suffragettes, women’s rights campaigners, homosexual campaigners, and yes, transsexual campaigners. If you don’t think gender roles cause some people to lose their shit, then why in the last decade did we manage to have a brief meta debate about a footballer wearing a pink shirt to an interview on the telly?

Interesting points Cylux. The trans issue is quite a fascinating one and it’s a pity it’s not discussed more widely. I hardly ever hear it being discussed in a mature way.
I think (just guessing) that that might be because people are really not up for open debate and standing up to points of view that are not entirely sympathetic to them.

I remember the case of the former para captain who had the surgery and eventually became a police woman.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-488776/A-year-ago-I-Ian-16-stone-14-inch-biceps-Captain-Paras-Today-Im-Jan-11-stone-size-12.html

I also saw the documentry about her transition both pre-op, and the journey to Thailand for the surgery, and life afterwards, and I had the most sympathy for her and her life and the huge change and heart ache she went through. He parents disowned her for example…. which was very cruel. The army chucked her out even though she wanted to stay. You would have to be a bit hard hearted to not feel for her.

But, the way it goes with the left is, that if you are in any way critical of ”the line” (it seems) you get slagged off pretty hard. It happened to me on another lefty website. A website of Billy Bragg fans. They insisted I was a ”transphobic bigot” because I picked on a few areas in the para man/woman’s story which were pushing the envelope a bit far (I said).
Like when ”she” was pre-operation and still built like a rugby player – but was going out running as a woman, with a wig, false breasts, tight shorts with ”her” penis taped undernaath the body to hide it.
Why is it not OK to laugh at that a bit and suggest that maybe that was getting a bit ahead of the situation and made her look a bit foolish? I can understand that in her head she was already a woman and wanted to look like a woman, even when in jogging attire, but it looked rather daft when you knew she was just faking it. She could have worn loose fitting pants and there would have been no need for the tape job.
She also talked like a man, but just changed it to a whisper to soften it. It was obvious.
It’s (perhaps) for these reasons that the Parachute Regiment decided that they couldn’t keep her on, but she sued for unfair dismissal anyway.

I was in my local Starbucks a couple of weeks ago, and two trans people were sitting right next to me. One of them had quite a loud voice and I couldn’t help hearing what they were saying. He/she was talking about being harassed by hoodie teenagers for being ”a freak” – and he/she had some other psychological problems too I thought. That made him unable to work. The other person was a middle aged ”guy” who was dressed as a woman but you could tell instantly that he wasn’t a real woman. His voice was that of a man and he looked like a man in drag. This is in Belfast, and he sounded pretty depressed.
I’m not surprised. Pretty sad all round.

I agree that it’s nice that people give each other solidarity etc (across LGBT) – but the thing that I have thought was slightly dishonest is when LGBT then becomes quite assertive in it’s politics with the wider society.
Like here perhaps, when a pub landlord refused service to a Labour LGBT group.
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/06/05/london-pub-manager-refuses-to-serve-gay-customers/

I might have banned them if I’d been working in the pub, not for being LGBT, but for being Labour.
I wondered if they just go looking for things like that to happen so they can protest about them. Also, when LGBT wants to have their point of view taught in schools or to talk with leaders of mosques like the East London Mosque. What are these elders from Bangladesh meant to make of some of the aspects of transgender?

My point is, I’d rather people were more up front and didn’t rely on this tactic of ”outflanking” the more lumpen sections of society. But that would take open and frank discussion both ways, and my impression is that the left just doesn’t bother with that, as there’s more mileage the other way. And I think that maybe that’s true.
It works, but I’ve just never liked its dishonesty.

Interesting to hear that there is real debate within LGBT circles though. I never get to hear about it because I don’t seek out those ”internal” discudssions.

@39

talk with leaders of mosques like the East London Mosque. What are these elders from Bangladesh meant to make of some of the aspects of transgender?

Well, you could point them to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s fatwa on the issue for a start…

Well, you could point them to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s fatwa on the issue for a start…

Yes that could be a start. The rest of the conversation could be interesting too.
Maybe going through the Wikipedia entries and categories with them.

1 Evolution of the term transgender
1.1 Transgender vs. transsexual
2 Transgender identities
2.1 Transsexual
2.2 Cross-dresser
2.3 Transvestite
2.4 Drag kings and queens
2.5 Genderqueer
2.6 People who live cross-gender
2.7 Androgyne
2.8 Bigender
3 Transgender people and the LGBT community
4 Pride symbols
5 Transgender people and feminism
6 Transgender healthcare
6.1 Mental healthcare
6.2 Physical healthcare
7 Transgender people and the law
8 Transgender people and religion
9 Transsexual people and science

My point has been, that I wish this was discussed more widely and not tacked on to the end of LGBT. There is a presumption, particularly by a website like this one, that a person should be well clued up on all this already. Hence the anger at The Sun for ”hunting” to find out the identity of this man who’s had a baby.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103157/Britains-male-mum-speaks-My-mother-told-Id-good-mummy-I-said-No-Ill-good-daddy.html

My point has been, that I wish this was discussed more widely and not tacked on to the end of LGBT.

Well join a gay separatist movement then, you don’t get to dictate the terms how others campaign on their issues.

There is a presumption, particularly by a website like this one, that a person should be well clued up on all this already. Hence the anger at The Sun for ”hunting” to find out the identity of this man who’s had a baby.

So you have to be totally clued up on all trans issues, before you’re able to recognise that attempting to dig up info on someone, who’s different and wishes to remain anonymous, so you can try and parade them in your paper like some sort of circus freak, is wrong??

SMFS/37: I would give you good odds there is no genetic relationship whatsoever where Trans people are concerned

Not quite what I meant, in that context. But it’s more complicated than XX and XY – people can be XXY, XYY, X, XXX, and so on. You can get XX men where the genes that would normally be on Y have been transposed to another chromosome, and so they have a typical male anatomy from birth, feel male, are brought up as male, and may only be discovered to be XX in detailed genetic testing later (or more usually, not at all).

Or you can get XY women where the hormones generated by the genes on the Y chromosome are not processed in the usual way by other genes (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, for example). Again, they may have typical female anatomy from birth, and the unusual genetic makeup only gets discovered later or not at all.

So a trans woman may often have XY genes. But they might have XX genes instead sometimes. Similarly a non-trans woman might have XY genes, even though XX is more likely.

[…] Reproductive organ layout […]

Again, there’s quite a lot of variation possible. 5-alpha reductase deficiency is one example.

there is no evidence of differences in brain linked to how a person feels about their gender.

Have a look at
Zhou et.al (1995) (doi:10.1038/378068a0)
Kruiver et al (2000) (doi:10.1210/jc.85.5.2034)
for instance, both of which show typical female brain structures in trans women.

There are other more recent papers showing similar effects.

44. Chaise Guevara

@ 31 damon

“You really have to be a bit of a liberal to be completely OK with LGBT.
Most of the world isn’t that liberal. So that makes them what? Homophobic bigots?”

Well, yes. What reasons can you think of for not being OK with LGBT that aren’t bigotry? The fact that it’s widespread doesn’t stop it being bigotry.

“It’s quite a lot to demand that EVERYONE has to acceot that as completely ”normal”.”

I’m not sure what this means. If you believe that homophobia etc. is wrong, obviously you’d prefer it if nobody was homophobic. So I suppose you could describe expressing that sentiment as “demanding” something. Would it be better if I were inconsistent? It’s not like I’m forcing people to not be bigoted, I just oppose bigotry. What’s wrong with that?

Well join a gay separatist movement then, you don’t get to dictate the terms how others campaign on their issues.

No I don’t get to dictate, but I should also be free to say what I think about a movement like the LGBT and its politics. The same way you can with every other movement or political group.
I don’t like the ”Stop the War” campaign in the UK, not because I supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but because I don’t like that movement’s politics and affiliations.
I don’t like the Respect party either, no matter what they claim about themselves.
That doesn’t mean I’m islamophobic or support imperialism (or whatever).
And because LGBT presents itself as such, without really trying very hard to explain to people what they’re about, then I’ve always been a bit cool toward anyone presenting themselves as such. ”Explain your acronym” I have felt like saying.

I know my point is lost on most people of a left and liberal view, because what I’m saying is just not done. No one bothers with that. If you question ”LGBT” you’re just a right wing bigot – end of story. No one can really be arsed to engage in such conversations, because it’s about stuff that has already been done and dusted and the arguments won – so people might say.

I wish this person who’s had the child all the best, but the wider society is still going to be a bit intrigued about ”a man giving birth” – when it’s actually a lot less interesting than that. What interests me most is the way that the modern radical and left society, and the more backward and traditional interact. I just went past this evangelical church this morning and the car park was full to overflowing.
http://www.metropolitan-tabernacle.org/content/aboutus

They get people coming for miles to that place – some on minibusses from thirty miles away. They are real people too, even if they are a bit mad. I went to one of their services last year to see what they were like, and I’d be interested in seeing how you could talk to those people about issues like this. It would be a difficult conversation I’m sure though.

What I don’t like is when you have such a polarised society that people prefer to just sit in their mutual camps pouring scorn at each other. Like the left does about much of middle England.

They get people coming for miles to that place – some on minibusses from thirty miles away. They are real people too, even if they are a bit mad. I went to one of their services last year to see what they were like, and I’d be interested in seeing how you could talk to those people about issues like this. It would be a difficult conversation I’m sure though.

Who cares?
You’re never going to be able to establish a complete consensus, especially when there are people quite happy to lie through their teeth (The National Organisation for Marriage in the US being a prime example) on the subject. You CAN establish rights, equality and protections though.

You CAN establish rights, equality and protections though.

Indeed you can. I have said that myself. You can make advances by pushing the equalities agenda – like that of this company called ”Equality, Diversity and Human Rights Solutions”. They ”teach” this to police forces, council staff, and even to government departments. Which is all well and good.
http://www.edhr.co.uk/index.php/products-services/

But, they is just one person’s or one group’s view. Like we see in the thread on LC about My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, you can’t just lay down ”the line” on something and make everyone accept it. I disagree with the person who wrote that OP, but because it’s about Irish Travellers it’s an issue full of emotion more than rational debate.

So while teaching EDHR’s agenda in schools and to workforces might move the society foreward, it also leads to the debacle of the John Terry case …. and also gives amunition to the right wing too. Richard Littlejohn columns are fueled by the progressive left getting things wrong. He’s still a horrible toad, but that’s our divided society for you.

And just what is the “equalities agenda” damon?


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