The benefits of being a “burden” on society


11:06 am - January 25th 2012

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contribution by Lucy Palmer

I’ve noticed some curiously suggestive language being used by Cameron and his crew: that people who are paid benefits “earn” that money. That people who are paid benefits ought to start “paying back society”. That those who pay tax ought to be riled at others being paid benefits.

How dare they take money they are entitled to? Never, more than of late, have I felt so sidelined, so belittled, so very offended by that notion that I should feel guilt at my situation.

My problems are endometriosis and depression. The only job I have had is a paper-round, delivering a weekday local newspaper and collecting the money at the end of the week.

Crucial to my mentioning this oft-lonely job of mine is that I could not even do that as I should have been able. Periods. Always the periods. Then, as now, they rendered me unable to walk, instead causing me to rely on my Mum to help me get to the toilet, to bring me my tablets, to get me up the stairs to bed, to sit up to eat.

She stays with me to hold me while the pain rips me apart, burning me inside with unforgiving and inexorable cruelty. On the average worst 2 days of a period, I’ll take about 45 tablets in all. Certainly at least 20 a day, and that only includes the painkillers.

It doesn’t help the whole big awkwardness that my periods are irregular. So, your guess is as good as mine regarding when they will start. Today, for instance, is 3 weeks since the last one started, and I was on the kitchen floor with period pain. I am wiped out for the best part of a week.

I wake in the mornings feeling sick, and almost always with a headache. I find it hard to concentrate and remember what I have to do around the house, so must write down my goals for the day. I need to sit down, I need to “rest” between things. I may have a burst of that energy stuff and decide I can manage the trays, the washing, and the kitchen sink and make a cup of tea for Ma and me. Then I’ll sit.

I don’t claim incapacity benefit; I’m not eligible.
I don’t claim housing benefit; I’m not eligible.
I don’t claim Disability Living Allowance; I’m not eligible.
I don’t claim tax credits; I’m not eligible.

I know people who have worse times than I, people who have to live a life knowing they won’t get better, people who can not walk, people who can not find anything to help the, feel even slightly improved. I’d never suggest that my endometriosis is the worst in the world, or the worst amongst my friends.

For me, though, working outside of my home is not an option. I worked so hard at college, through periods of hell, depression blackening my soul for days and weeks and month. Anxiety caused me to shake and retch at the thought of getting to and staying at a place which contained so many things I utterly adore – Art materials, books, people. Hormones. Real, genuine, actual problems because of hormones.

I want to use my talents as an Artist to earn my OWN money. I don’t want people to pay for me, look after me, and be my chaperone. But it is that way and it won’t change. It’s not negativity; it’s realism. I want to sell my work – my drawings, take commissions, and paint garden birds in watercolours. I want to use MY money to buy my own sanitary towels, my own socks, and my own hair grips to replace the others that bent too much to use any more.

Even if I did manage to create some work to sell, it would take a while to do. I’d need to pay for prints of my Hendrix picture, and they’re not altogether cheap to have done. But they do look fabulous.

I don’t want luxuries, I’m not greedy, I don’t want innumerable possessions, I don’t want holidays abroad every 6 months; I just want a better life than the one I have. That’s not bad, that’s not shameful, and it’s not snobbery.

I will not risk my health to be what this unkind government wants me to be. Money does not stop pain hurting.

“Surviving”, as Cameron indelicately puts it, and getting by might be good enough for his way of thinking for others, but it doesn’t wash with me. People deserve better. I’ve survived enough with endometriosis and depression and I will not fall in to the trap of believing my life is my fault.


A longer version of this was posted on Lucy’s blog

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Reader comments


1. Limiting Factor

It is the purpose of a democratic government to look after the wellbeing of the nation, ie the people of that country. Part of that purpose is taking measures to reduce avoidable suffering, whereas at the moment we are cursed with a government which carelessly and callously is increasing avoidable suffering. Oh, and telling us what a great job they’re doing (with the Libdems ecstatic at being in government and slapping each other on the back).

The true burden on society is the 1%, and their rich friends in the City and the corporate sectors. That’s where the money has gone, and its long past time we took it back.

Has Cameron earn’t his millions? Where has the money come from that Cameron has?

I’m not against the transformation of the benefit system and I would like to see the benefit system heavily reduced but only if there are enough jobs for everyone to take and services such as childcare and other care is affordable for the population to use. Also if wages were a lot higher then people wouldn’t need the benefit system to top up their earnings just to get by.

@1

The true burden on society is the 1%, and their rich friends in the City and the corporate sectors. That’s where the money has gone, and its long past time we took it back.

Would that be the same 1% who contribute 27% of total income tax revenues? The same 1%, each of whom not only pays his/her way by paying his/her proportionate share of public spending, but pays 26 other people’s share too?

My grandfather was pretty typical of his generation in believing that anyone who was fit and healthy had a duty to work hard to first feed, clothe and house his own family, contribute to the care of the older generation within his extended family, and then put in a bit of extra graft to contribute to the common good by helping out those who didn’t have a fit & healthy breadwinner to support them. For him, and millions like him, the idea of taking handouts, whether from the state, charities, churches or rich folk would have been anathema. It would have offended against his sense of personal dignity.

As I say, that outlook was, if not universal, then certainly the norm. By contrast, the norm today is increasingly that people expect others to settle their bills and pay for the goods and services they consume. Who? “The rich” …or the “1%” ….. the council….the government….. somebody else.

The true burden on society are those who pay in less than they take out. (In fact, they really ought to be paying in a bit more than they take out.) If you’re sick, then fair enough. But fit people who are forever bleating about “entitlements” and “rights” are just taking advantage of the kindness of strangers. It’s undignified.

Sorry chum, the 1% are doing their duty: they’re paying their way (and chipping in a lot more besides). Now do yours…..

4. Chaise Guevara

Bloody good article, this. Most benefits are designed to help people who CAN’T earn them, that’s the whole point.

5. So Much For Subtlety

How dare they take money they are entitled to?

In what sense are they entitled to it? Out of the generosity of our hearts, the British tax payer have decided to give some people money. Now they have decided to insist on some medical check ups and other regulatory hoops for people getting that money to go through. Why precisely are they not allowed to do the latter? It is their money. Not yours.

Never, more than of late, have I felt so sidelined, so belittled, so very offended by that notion that I should feel guilt at my situation.

I hear this a lot. Why do you think this is a valid argument?

My problems are endometriosis and depression. …. Periods. Always the periods. Then, as now, they rendered me unable to walk, instead causing me to rely on my Mum to help me get to the toilet, to bring me my tablets, to get me up the stairs to bed, to sit up to eat.

Treatment for endometriosis is some form of hormonal therapy – going on the Pill in a stronger or weaker form. May I ask if this works for you? Failing that there are surgical options up to and including removal of the ovaries. While I would agree this is a little extreme may I ask if you have considered ablatement or the more radical severing of the nerve endings to the general area?

It doesn’t help the whole big awkwardness that my periods are irregular. So, your guess is as good as mine regarding when they will start.

Then why not suppress them altogether?

I want to use my talents as an Artist to earn my OWN money. I don’t want people to pay for me, look after me, and be my chaperone. But it is that way and it won’t change. It’s not negativity; it’s realism.

Sorry but it is not realism. There are medical options – some far more radical than others. Have these failed for you? What is it precisely that is stopping you from selling your own work? It is not as if artists need to work regular hours.

I don’t want luxuries, I’m not greedy, I don’t want innumerable possessions, I don’t want holidays abroad every 6 months; I just want a better life than the one I have. That’s not bad, that’s not shameful, and it’s not snobbery.

No. It is not bad, it is not shameful and it is not snobbery. But you want the rest of us to pay for it. Which is odd because you have one condition that does have very effective medical treatments available for it and another which is best treated by doing nothing – and is often abused anyway. So you need to make a case that we ought to go on funding your type of conditions. I don’t see it here.

I will not risk my health to be what this unkind government wants me to be. Money does not stop pain hurting.

I am not even sure what you are trying to say. Neither condition is a risk to your health. Even if you did what the government wanted and sold some art. If money does not stop pain hurting what is the point of your comment? You don’t want the money now? That can’t be right. So what is it?

Speaking of which, the new incapacity tests are finding 80% of people claiming are fit to work.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2091328/New-incapacity-tests-80-fit-work.html

6. So Much For Subtlety

1. Limiting Factor

It is the purpose of a democratic government to look after the wellbeing of the nation, ie the people of that country.

And pissing billions away in unjustified benefits is weakening the country.

Part of that purpose is taking measures to reduce avoidable suffering, whereas at the moment we are cursed with a government which carelessly and callously is increasing avoidable suffering.

Really? Where does it say that? The purpose of a democratic government is to do what the voters want. And they want something done about the abuses of the wealth system. Which is what they are getting.

The true burden on society is the 1%, and their rich friends in the City and the corporate sectors. That’s where the money has gone, and its long past time we took it back.

Sure. Mali, which has so few of those 1 percenters, is doing so much better than us. We depend on them to produce the wealth that we take from them and give to people like the OP. We would be as badly off as Mali without them.

Chaise Guevara

Bloody good article, this. Most benefits are designed to help people who CAN’T earn them, that’s the whole point.

No they are not. That may be the intent but that is not the way they are designed. Nor is that they way they are handed out. Most people on benefits are entirely capable of helping themselves. They choose not to.

I bet our little moronic brownshirt fuck at 5 has never done an honest days work in his life. The fact he is on here everyday proves that.

8. ex-Labour voter

Well said, Sally!

9. ex-Labour voter

Well done, Sally!

I wouldn’t like to get on the wrong side of you.

I wonder when Cameron is going to cut the benefits to the Falkland Islanders.

7. Sally @ Same old…

11. Flowerpower

Steve @2

Has Cameron earn’t his millions? Where has the money come from that Cameron has?

Cameron hasn’t got that many millions. He bought his first (London) house on a mortgage and has now paid off the mortgage. The house appreciated in value (he chose an up-and-coming area) and was worth about £3m last time I looked. That might sound a huge sum to many – but all you get for that is a pretty modest house in Central London these days. Cameron’s is a medium sized family house…. not some stately home.

He also has a farmhouse in the country and has just bought the field adjacent. He has a mortgage on this property.

Cameron earns whatever PMs earn – around £150k, I think. Before that he had an ordinary MP’s salary of £50-60k.

The big earner in the family is his wife – who has risen to the top of her stationery company and has also started her own furniture company on the side, which has been successful.

Cameron may have some inherited money – but probably not much. His dad died a year or so ago, but Cameron has an elder brother, a sister and his mum’s still alive.

In short, the answer is: yes he and his wife have earned it.

@1, LF

“It is the purpose of a democratic government to look after the wellbeing of the nation, ie the people of that country.”

It’s the purpose of a democratically elected government to do what they said they would do in order to be elected. (There’s also the busienss of legality and any constitution they have to maintain.)

It is the purpose of a civilised, moral society to look after those who cannot look after themselves.

There may be a problem with freeloaders, but sometimes being civilised means having to put up with a few bad things for the sake of the benefits everyone receives.

13. Chaise Guevara

@ SMFS

“Most people on benefits are entirely capable of helping themselves. They choose not to.”

Source?

“That those who pay tax ought to be riled at others being paid benefits. ”

The irony of that is that many people who pay tax may at some point need to claim benefits.

“That those who pay tax ought to be riled at others being paid benefits.”

The irony of that being many people who pay tax will need to claim benefit at some point.

16. alienfromzog

@5, So much for subtlety, you really are an idiot.

Anyone who quotes a Daily Mail article as fact is probably beyond hope.

If you read the DM article it all begins to unravel; firstly the 80% figure is created by adding all those who do not complete assessment with those who are assessed as potentially able to work and added that to anyone who is deemed fit to work.

At the bottom of the article they mention how the (notoriously Left Wing) work and pensions select committee recently reported how completely flawed these assessments are. Never mind that 80% of those who appeal their assessments are successful…

But, hey let’s go on abusing and demonising the most vulnerable in our society… I mean why not? They deserve it after all….

AFZ

Thank-you, Chaise Guevara.

Thank-you, also, to number 5. To clarify, the facts are:

– I claim income support because I can not work a “normal” job. I can’t sell my work because I claim income support. I can not produce enough work because I am unwell. Is that clearer for you?

– I have had 2 laparoscopies, and during each I had ablation for extensive endometriosis and endometriomas. Each surgery has not improved my pain anywhere near enough and, now, only 5 months since the last one, I am experiencing pain, not just every day, but weeks before periods start. It never changes.

– I can not tolerate hormone tablets because my system is extremely sensitive and my depression worsens. It’s just the way it is. You may not like that fact, number 5 but, I guarantee, I like it a hell of a lot less.

– I have had 2 6-month courses of injections to give me a temporary induced menopause and I can not undergo that kind treatment, again, as I am likely to develop osteoporosis. I still have back and leg pains which do not cease with painkillers. I use a walking stick some days to help my stability.

– I have been offered Depo-Provera as another injection treatment, which would shut down my ovaries but not cause a menopause, although, it may increase my risk of developing breast cancer. As my Mum is still undergoing treatment for it after her mastectomy, I am not at all comfortable about this option of treatment because we don’t know if I carry the BRCA1 or BRCA2 genes.

– My award-winning consultant and GP are in agreement that I am not fit to work. Chronic fatigue is also not easy to fix. I have no fear of medical check-ups – hell knows I have had enough hospital appointments and repeat prescriptions and medications in the 16 years I waited to be helped by the medical profession as a whole. So you don’t agree with me. And? Open your mind, man.

Refresh me, do – when did I say I wanted the rest of people else to pay for “it”? Oh. I didn’t. I have to take 40mg of Citalopram daily for my depression and anxiety, which are made worse by hormonal changes, brought about by my endometriosis and polycystic ovaries. The painkillers I have to take (no, I can’t “grin and bear it”) are codeine-based and cause extreme tiredness, sleepiness, drowsiness, and so on. I can not walk steadily. Would you like me to drive like that? Work in a shop like that? Sensible answer is no.

No, endometriosis is not fatal, but it’s a hell to live with. I really don’t expect you to even attempt to understand my situation, but I think you ought to try to find more information and facts – not presumptions and piffle from The Daily Mail – before prejudiced blanket-assumptions cloud your head altogether.

The full post is on my blog – http://www.popgoespop.blogspot.com – and all the “issues” which seem to concern you so are made clear. If they ever needed to be.

Please, number 5, find out more about endometriosis and depression before you berate me on subjects about which you have no or insignificant understanding. You’ve made yourself look awfully silly.

“The true burden on society are those who pay in less than they take out. (In fact, they really ought to be paying in a bit more than they take out.) If you’re sick, then fair enough.”

Lets establish a small sample of who you mean by this:

Every person under the age of 18
Most people under the age of 21
Anyone in a low paid job whose contribution in tax is less than they would have to pay for the provision of public/merit goods such as defence, policing, courts, prevention of contagious illnessness through vaccines etc were those costs distributed equally amongst the population (i’d say about 80% of the working population there tbh)
Anyone who had a hospital visit costing more than they cotnributed through their job.
Somebody who retired (even if they don’t claim the pension, they may still walk down streets lit courtesey of YOUR TAX MONEY)
Tourists on holiday here
Adults with low skills or low educational levels that make it highly unlikely they can get a well paid job (not sure whether you’d regard that as “sick”)

and a whole lot more.

What punishment do you think we should apply to these drains on society?

Should we ask them to do community service?
Should we issue a statement to terrorists and criminals that the police and justice system will no longer offer a protection service to them as they haven’t paid?
What about the workhouses?

Or perhaps we should end this childish nonsense that your contribution and value to society is only as good as your last tax return.

@ Flowerpower

“The true burden on society are those who pay in less than they take out.”

But that’s the position *most* of us are in, even those who work their whole lives, earn decent incomes and pay their taxes.

Think about it. Assuming the tax burden on a middle (20k) earner is around 35% and she works for 40 years, she’ll pay around 7k x 40 = 280k tax in her lifetime.

If she then claims a 7k a year pension for 20 years, that’s 140k – already half her total contribution. Her education, even if she didn’t go to uni, will have cost around 6k a year x 13 years = 90k. She may very well receive 30k or more in child benefit and tax credits during the years her children are growing up.

The NHS costs almost 2k per year per person in the UK, so her share of NHS services over her lifetime, if she lives to 85, is worth around 170k.

So she’s already a ‘burden on society’ to the tune of more than 100k, and she hasn’t yet driven on a public road, visited a library, had her bins collected, called the police or fire brigade, had a period of unemployment, etc.

All of which makes sense, really, when you think about the amount of tax that’s paid by high earners (and corporations). The reason we need to collect all that tax from them is that the rest of us don’t pay enough tax to cover the cost of our own services and benefits.

(It would be a simple mistake to think that all or most of that money is needed to pay for the relatively few people who spend long periods out of work, or the very few very large families who grab the headlines with their expensive houses. The vast majority of public money, even that which is counted as ‘welfare’ spending (on pensions, tax credits, housing benefit etc.) is spent on people who spend most of their lives in education, work and retirement.)

17. You are wasting your time trying to reason with 5. If people like 5 had their way you would all be put in cattle trucks and sent off to labour camps.

It is the standard fascist technique of going after the weak and the sick, and blaming them for the problems in society. A lot of it about at the moment. Gingrich in the US, Cameron here. We can thank the Lie Dems for their lies at the last election. Having run to the left of labour, they now govern on the right.

Still, i’m sure Simon Hughes and Vince Cable are busy trying to seek out their latest excuses.

Has his wife earned all her wealth Flowerpower?

There are millions of people in this country and around the world who work and work very hard day or night and receive a lot less they they really should, so the state has to top up their income just to live in this modern society.
If Employers raised wages and if the country designed the economy so that most can find work and decent work then the need for benefits would be at a minimum and would allow the welfare state to provide for those who find themselves out of work for the short time and those who’s life through no fault of their own are unable to work.

So Much For Subtlety,

may I ask if you have considered ablatement or the more radical severing of the nerve endings to the general area?… Then why not suppress them altogether?

Lucy’s treatment is entirely a matter for her, her family, and her doctors, and entirely not a matter for internet ignoramuses like you.

But I must say, it is very revealing of your character that your immediate response to a blogpost is to command the author to have her ovaries removed. Very revealing.

When people of your persuasion complain about the welfare state “weakening the country”, one should ask what a “strong country” might look like, from the perspective of someone who’s so ready to reach for their scalpel. And I think I’ve got a pretty good idea.

@6

I suggest you actually learn something about mental illness. Depression is not best treated by “doing nothing.”

No wonder Cameron’s benefit “reforms” get as much support when there are people as ignorant as you.

Still, if you ever lose your job or become too sick to work, you’ll change your view. People like you always do.

25. Paul Newman

Sounds tough Lucy, the thing is though, I don`t have a lot of money to spare. I have kids to clothe and feed and I would like to be able to go on a holiday one of these days. So really, notwithstanding your pitiable condition I am not much in the mood for charity right now and after all, you are nothing to me.
However, you have our money so I am not sure what else you want? What ?

In general, I favour localising welfare, if you actually had to look at the people who were personally supporting you, perhaps there would be a little less self pity, and bit more gratitude. For all I know you are a malingerer, the word “artist” is a bit suspicious “.
If you lived next door then someone would soon find out. In fact if you are genuine you might prefer it, people are pretty decent when the need is genuine. Forget sitting around dreaming of being an artist though. Sick or work.Thats it .

“Sounds tough Lucy, the thing is though, I don`t have a lot of money to spare. I have kids to clothe and feed and I would like to be able to go on a holiday one of these days. So really, notwithstanding your pitiable condition I am not much in the mood for charity right now and after all, you are nothing to me.”

Good old British spiteful and selfish opinion in a nutshell there, I feel.

The 80% found fit for work has long since moved into the realm of PRATT.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_refuted_a_thousand_times

sorry for your troubles sweetheart, but you certainly don’t believe that the average benefits recipient shares your story. No one’s suggesting that what you endure is your fault, but surely, you must see something wrong with a system in which some people are able to work and chose not to because they can depend on the state. Many times, the lifestyle they lead is much better than mine and I PAY TAXES!!!

29. the a&e charge nurse

[26] the use of the word ‘british’ is gratuitous – the comments @25 are pretty spiteful though.

The comments on this article prove that for many people, another person’s actual, personal experience of sickness and the welfare system is less important than their own unsupported prejudices. Like the Anon at #28 above, who complains: ‘some people are able to work and chose not to because they can depend on the state. Many times, the lifestyle they lead is much better than mine and I PAY TAXES!!!’ There’s no actual evidence of this, of course: who are these people who choose to live on benefits? If it really is such a good life as Anon says, why doesn’t he do it himself?

Also, I hadn’t heard of it before now, but endometriosis sounds fucking awful. Don’t really know what I can say to Lucy other than you have my sympathy…

Wow, some mean spirited comments on this thread, not least #25.

Why shouldn’t Lucy be an artist? She wants to earn money from a skill she has, why is that bad? Shouldn’t people be supported and encouraged to fulfil their potential, whatever that might be? Or does having an illness mean that she does not deserve to achieve this? I don’t get it.

That aside, I can empathise with the idea that one is expected to feel guilty about being chronically ill or disabled. We are indeed expected to apologise for our ill health. However nobody intends to come down with a medical condition, it just happens. It can happen to anyone at any age with any level of talent or ability. It can very easily force you out of your job. Then, if you aren’t fortunate enough to have a rich family or vast personal wealth to support you, you need to claim benefits. None of this is anybody’s fault but it is something that society needs to accept.

Any ‘hard working taxpayer’, at any moment, could find themselves in this position. This is why I don’t understand the callousness. It’s all very well saying ‘why should I care’ etc but to anyone who has this attitude – what if it happened to you? Would you be happy to be treated like you were suddenly a liability to the country? Would you gladly give up your hopes, dreams, ambitions? Would you let yourself starve to death on the streets rather than take money from the state? Perhaps you believe yourselves to be invincible.

Lucy was brave to write in such detail about endometriosis and depression, two very misunderstood conditions. Very often having chronic illness in itself can cause depression (as my GP told me, it’s a risk factor) and no wonder when you look at some people’s attitudes.

@ Paul Newman

“I have kids to clothe and feed and I would like to be able to go on a holiday one of these days. So really, notwithstanding your pitiable condition I am not much in the mood for charity right now”

I don’t suppose it’s occurred to you that some dickhead on triple your income, who thinks he’s struggling because of the cost of school fees and Harley Street doctors, is probably similarly “not in the mood” for the “charity” involved in paying for your family’s NHS healthcare, state schooling, child benefit/tax credits, etc.?

As spending on services and benefits is rolled back and, eventually, the Tories get to work on abolishing the 50p tax rate, cutting inheritance tax and so on, he’s going to be laughing and Lucy is going to be screwed. Seriously – which camp do you expect to fall into?

What did #5 say that was so wrong????? You guys are kidding me. Lucy, please honey, don’t make it ONLY about you.
Many of us pay our share taxes and struggle as bloody hell just to get by so pardon me if I get riled up by someone on benefits who can afford a holiday, and can afford to deck up their homes in ways I can only dream of – and believe me, I know a few of them.

35. Anon E Mouse

@7 – Sally

As a Labour supporting Blairite you really have some nerve to make the comments you do!

Sally old boy you are precious. Don’t go changing eh hehehe

Great stuff…

This kind of self-verified, anecdotal blog post where the writer tells a tale of heart rending personal tragedy in order to illuminate some facet of public policy is becoming increasingly common here.

Eliciting an emotional response from most of the lefties commenters is a given because most middle class socialists operate their politics at an emotional level. The right wing commenters, who tend to have a more rational response to such stuff, know the thread is best left alone, because any adverse reaction will allow the lefties to call them out as uncaring selfish bastards and the world will continue to spin on it’s axis.

So the next trick is to put a few traps in the original post to elicit the required response.

I want to sell my work – my drawings, take commissions, and paint garden birds in watercolours. I want to use MY money to buy my own sanitary towels, my own socks, and my own hair grips to replace the others that bent too much to use any more.

Even if I did manage to create some work to sell, it would take a while to do. I’d need to pay for prints of my Hendrix picture, and they’re not altogether cheap to have done. But they do look fabulous.

The rational reaction to this is as follows. Are the drawings any good? Would anyone give you a commission? Why not use oils? Do you know how many wannabe artists there are around? How much is a hair grip?

Often I think the writers are not to blame for their stuff appearing here. They are being used by someone who sees an opportunity to make mischief.

We all ‘take’ from society and we all take more than we put in too. A society is more than the sum of its parts. Everyone here benefits from the population being educated, healthy and secure. Everyone benefits from the existence of public transport, even if we have never been on a bus. Our customers and our employees do. Sam Cameron did not benefit from her own ‘hard work’, she owes everything she owns, and I mean everything, on the hard work of millions of other people who live in society where the entire population are literate enough to want her stationary and her furniture.

Even those people who receive benefits create wealth, because the benefits they get, surprise surprise, gets pushed back into the economy and pretty dammed quick too. Not only that but the jobs they do, even if they are low paid and receive WFTC still generate billions of quid in profit for the companies they work for. The retail trade exists purely on the back of millions of people who turn up to do their low paid jobs stacking shelves, working checkouts, security guarding collecting trolleys and the like. And the CEO gets a whacking great bonus from his ‘hard work’. Yeah, not quite sunshine, not quite.

Dump Sam Cameron onto an island somewhere in the Atlantic and give her enough materials to create a million envelopes and note pads and see how far she gets. Unless the resident penguin population spontaneously evolve a written language a functioning economy and a currency, poor old Sam is going to be very poor indeed.

Same with the city boys. Take a couple of hundred of them and dump them on an island and what? They will all be Bugatti owning millionaires after buying coconuts on the margin whilst short selling pineapples? Perhaps you will end up with two hundred skeletons strewn across a beach. What about the island where the footballers live? Signing five-year deals worth ten million quid is only possible because up and down the Country millions of people support football teams.

You know, people like the Beckhams and Kate Price are not millionaires because they ‘work hard’ it is because millions of so called ‘chavs’ idolise them. It is fine for David Beckham to complain about people on benefit but that never seems to stop him taking the money he gets from a shirt deal or aftershave. As if Kate Price did anything other than shake her huge plastic tits at a camera, she would have been dirt poor. She is not an astute ‘business woman’ she is a topless model who got lucky. Lucky because millions of young men like wanking.

SMFS @5:

“The purpose of a democratic government is to do what the voters want. And they want something done about the abuses of the wealth system.”

(My bold)

Paging Dr Freud…or even Lord Freud….

I must say that I’m appalled at SMFS’s comments. Very well you may believe that everyone who isn’t working is stealing from you and all your hard working friends. That is your opinion and you are entitled to hold it.

What I find some distasteful is the way you question Lucy about her condition as if you are some kind of expert on the matter. You aren’t, you’re just another anonymous nobody who needs to patronise people to feel big. Grow up.

When Victorian style poverty, filth, misery and disease comes back to the country people will weep and say “it didn’t use to be like this there used to be safety net how could this have happened” well, it happened because gullible spiteful mean-spirited morons like you believed everything you read in The Sun, The Daily Mail, The Telegraph, The Express,and The Times, and supported silver spooned silver tongued sociopaths like David Cameron and cheered him on every step of the way while he destroyed the welfare state and the NHS because you thought it was going to hurt someone else and you revelled in that idea, but “He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him”.

Most of this wicked country deserves what is coming, it’s just a shame that the tiny minority of decent people that live here are going to suffer too.

Pagar @ 37

The right wing commenters, who tend to have a more rational response to such stuff, know the thread is best left alone,

Well it never stopped any of you lot before, has it?

This something that I have always wondered about. These threads and ones like Sue Marsh et al appear from time to time.

Now, they clearly are not aimed at you, no offence intended, genuinely, no offence intended, but you are not in the slightest bit interested in the plight of Lucy or Sue.

Nor are you particularly interested in the fate of the poor, disabled or the disadvantaged either. You have no interest in Climate Change, or feminism or those on the bottom ladders of society. You are not interested in social housing or any Left Wing ideas.

Yet, here you are on an obscure website designed for Left of Centre politics, regular as clockwork, every day of the week and here you are tonight as well and pissing on Lucy’s thread. You don’t know Lucy from eve, you cannot possibly influence her, you know nothing of her life and could not care less about her opinions.

You have the entire internet to choose from, there are dozens of websites designed for people who share you interests, you could hurl abuse at the disabled on any one of them, yet despite all that you purposely seek out a website that you know you will disagree with and park here.

SMFS and the rest of the lice, I get. SMFS in particular takes a morbid fascination in humiliating the disabled. His merciless attacks on Sue Marsh are depressingly breathtaking for the vitriol she shows. A true masterclass in Tory invective, I would not be suprised if he was a councillor (see Rotten Boroughs, Private Eye, today) He comes across as the type of bloke who, if charge with rape, would defend himself in order put the victim through the ordeal of answering questions about how much drink she had and the colour of her panties on the night of the alleged attack. Sunny feels that his direct attacks bring something to the Party, what I am not sure, but hey ho.

However, what are you getting out of this? I do not deny that you have the ‘right’ to post, but why do it? What are getting from attacking poor Lucy here? I mean, you don’t even suffer period pain so you cannot even tell her she is over reacting.

So why come to awebsite that is completely about things you hate?

I hate Baskeball and Big Brother, so I never go near these types of sites, I NEVER look at Tory bloggs because I am not interested in what they have to say, I never go on Man U sites either.

What is the attraction? Why come to site and be obnoxious to the contributors of a site that is clearly not aimed at you?

42. Just Visiting

I’m sorry to hear about the pain you’re often in Lucy
A psychologist would say that for someone suffering depression, it would be better for them to work – rather than not work.

There are jobs one can do from home, at any hours you like, to suit you – the Internet has made that much easier than 10 or 20 years ago.

Lucy – here’s one such job, paying $14.50 /hr – you choose how many hours/week you want to do (on average) – you just need a computer.
The hours you work don’t have to be 9-5: you choose whenever suits you.

So you could do more hours on your most pain-free days, to make up for doing none on your worst days.

You could start at say 10 hours/week and then ramp it up as you wished.

There are thousand of people doing it – the work is ultimately for Google – looking at Google search results to check the quality / match of the pages they list.

Here’s someone explaining what the work involves:
http://searchengineland.com/interview-google-search-quality-rater-108702

———————————————-
The internet also means it’s very easy to be a learner at home – no need to go to the library/ college: there are huge resources to learn from online.

If you started with the google job above, and then say learned some SEO skills – that is flavour of the month it seems, and you could offer yourservices online at an hourly rate: using one of the various online portals such as Freelancers.com. Or contact say 10 small web marketing companies near you – maybe 1 has work peaks they could pass you. The google skills will make you of interest to them, hopefully.

If you’ve been out of work for a while, it’ll probably be painful to get back into the habit – but as you say, you are keen to spend your OWN money: so the pleasure of that and the satisfaction of starting to build yourself some future career options: hopefully that can motivate you to stick with it during the tough first few months.

And as ultimate motivator: picture to yourself a day when you can come off benefits, and start paying tax yourself, so you can contribute to the lives of those you describe: ” people who have worse times than I, people who have to live a life knowing they won’t get better, people who can not walk…’

“The right wing commenters, who tend to have a more rational response to such stuff, ” The delusion is priceless.

I welcome the trolls showing us their true colours. I hope people will remember this for when the trolls are next lecturing us about standards and decency. As I have said before, these people are brownshirts. They have no compassion in them. they are greedy, and they no nothing about standards and decency.

And of course we all know that they are hypocrites. They rely on some form of govt hand out. Why do bankers and farmers get bailed out? Because they are mostly tories

44. So Much For Subtlety

alienfromzog

If you read the DM article it all begins to unravel; firstly the 80% figure is created by adding all those who do not complete assessment with those who are assessed as potentially able to work and added that to anyone who is deemed fit to work.

So they do. What’s your point? You’re quibbling. The figures are so high that even if you slice and dice it to suit your own politics, there has clearly been a massive abuse of the system. Not the 0.5% or whatever that is usually claimed. The bottom line is simple:

“Just one fifth of claimants – 22 per cent – were found unable to do any form of employment.”

At the bottom of the article they mention how the (notoriously Left Wing) work and pensions select committee recently reported how completely flawed these assessments are. Never mind that 80% of those who appeal their assessments are successful…

There are obviously some problems. So what? When four fifths of people are removed from this form of welfare, we have a problem. And the success rate of those who appeal was running at 40% last I heard. Where did you get your figure from? Not even with the help of the CAB do successful appeals run that high.

But, hey let’s go on abusing and demonising the most vulnerable in our society… I mean why not? They deserve it after all….

The point is a lot of them are not vulnerable are they? Because they are fit to work. They are abusing the system by pretending to be vulnerable.

12. Cherub

It is the purpose of a civilised, moral society to look after those who cannot look after themselves.

It is a pity then that our system does not do that. Worse, our system makes people who can almost look after themselves much worse. Our system does not help people help themselves, which ought to be the mark of a civilised society, but creates more problems than it solves.

There may be a problem with freeloaders, but sometimes being civilised means having to put up with a few bad things for the sake of the benefits everyone receives.

80 percent found fit to work. That is not a few.

19. G.O.

Think about it. Assuming the tax burden on a middle (20k) earner is around 35% and she works for 40 years, she’ll pay around 7k x 40 = 280k tax in her lifetime. …. So she’s already a ‘burden on society’ to the tune of more than 100k, and she hasn’t yet driven on a public road, visited a library, had her bins collected, called the police or fire brigade, had a period of unemployment, etc.

Except you have not counted VAT. That’s another 160k.

And of course it is absurd to think she will get a pension. The system always was a ponzi scheme. The only people who will benefit are those who joined early. Those paying now will pay but get little if anything.

All of which makes sense, really, when you think about the amount of tax that’s paid by high earners (and corporations). The reason we need to collect all that tax from them is that the rest of us don’t pay enough tax to cover the cost of our own services and benefits.

But I agree with that.

Jim reading your stuff is like getting buttonholed by a drunk sanctimonious Scot whose mates left hours ago.
I have no opinion about Lucy, no offence; I don`t know her. She has a horrible life. Sorry about that, obviously, but as help will be expressed via the medium of other people`s money, redistributed by the state,I thought that was the subject.
Her right wing case is dissonantly couched in left wing emoting. She claims an entitlement, but only subject to rigorous conditions

These are:
1 Suffering in itself
2 An ongoing duty to make an optimum return to Community
3 Best efforts at self help
4 An awareness of debt
5 Rejection of dependency ” ( I) don’t want people to pay for me, look after me, and be my chaperone…..”

Fine.

The Coalition are incrementally introducing conditionality into the welfare so I would expect her applause.
I am not a fan of atypical and emotive yarns, hence my snipe,same for the Daily Mail scrounger tales.If she is claiming something more than I have understood perhaps she can tell us .I `m still suspicious about this artist thing and the tone jars with the argument.

So there it is …oh christ here comes that boring Scottish bar fly again…gotta go.

46. So Much For Subtlety

32. Violet

Why shouldn’t Lucy be an artist? She wants to earn money from a skill she has, why is that bad? Shouldn’t people be supported and encouraged to fulfil their potential, whatever that might be? Or does having an illness mean that she does not deserve to achieve this? I don’t get it.

She should be an artist if she wants to be. By all means, it is not bad that she wants to earn money from a skill she thinks she has. But no, people should not be supported with other people’s money to do something they want to just because they want to. We don’t know if she has any talent. Given she is not supporting herself, it does not look promising. Every other Middle Class family seems to have a teenage son in the basement writing poetry or practising to be in a band. What do you think sane parents ought to do – support him until he is 30 or tell him to get a job?

That aside, I can empathise with the idea that one is expected to feel guilty about being chronically ill or disabled. We are indeed expected to apologise for our ill health.

Sorry but where and when has anyone ever said that anybody ought to feel guilty about being ill or disabled? This is one of the myths being pushed by the disabled lobby – that somehow asking people to prove they are ill is a form of abuse. It isn’t. Asking people to come in for a medical check is not only not a big deal, it is not asking much, much less that someone feel guilty.

However nobody intends to come down with a medical condition, it just happens.

That is not true and if you go to the right part of London I can introduce you to people who have worked very hard to come down with the right medical condition.

Lucy was brave to write in such detail about endometriosis and depression, two very misunderstood conditions. Very often having chronic illness in itself can cause depression (as my GP told me, it’s a risk factor) and no wonder when you look at some people’s attitudes.

What was brave about it?

47. So Much For Subtlety

23. Larry

Lucy’s treatment is entirely a matter for her, her family, and her doctors, and entirely not a matter for internet ignoramuses like you.

That is not true is it Larry? When we pay for it, her illnesses become everyone’s business. And so the government will soon make them all available on a data base anyone and their dog can access so that we will all know as well.

But I must say, it is very revealing of your character that your immediate response to a blogpost is to command the author to have her ovaries removed. Very revealing.

Actually the most revealing thing is that you took a series of questions and in your mind turned them into a command. Look at the bits you quoted. Question marks. Not commands. When you’re this invested in a lie, it says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me. Why do you think you need to feel that other people are issuing orders? What is it about the dishonesty of your basic position that requires you to treat the evidence with such flagrant dishonesty? You know I am right don’t you? That is why you’re forced to invent.

39. Chris

I must say that I’m appalled at SMFS’s comments. Very well you may believe that everyone who isn’t working is stealing from you and all your hard working friends. That is your opinion and you are entitled to hold it.

It is not my opinion and I did not say it. You made it up. You lied. So the real question is what are you so appalled about? Your own fiction? Obviously not. Somehow I made you feel something that upset you so badly you have had to invent a reason to justify yourself. You’re lying to yourself. Which suggests that you know I am right, you know you really agree with me, so to excuse your discomfort you have had to invent a lie to oppose.

What I find some distasteful is the way you question Lucy about her condition as if you are some kind of expert on the matter. You aren’t, you’re just another anonymous nobody who needs to patronise people to feel big. Grow up.

Well I that last bit is definitely true. What is wrong with asking her to share details of her condition?

Robert

When Victorian style poverty, filth, misery and disease comes back to the country people will weep and say “it didn’t use to be like this there used to be safety net how could this have happened” well, it happened because gullible spiteful mean-spirited morons like you believed everything you read in The Sun, The Daily Mail, The Telegraph, The Express,and The Times, and supported silver spooned silver tongued sociopaths like David Cameron and cheered him on every step of the way while he destroyed the welfare state and the NHS because you thought it was going to hurt someone else and you revelled in that idea, but “He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him”.

Well no. There is no way that Victorian-style poverty could make a come back because productivity is so high. Barring a complete collapse of society anyway. The only way that could happen is if we follow Argentina down the path of Third World-dom. Argentina used to be the richest country in the world. Richer than Britain. But out of control welfare spending put paid to that and now it is dirt poor once more. Britain is showing every sign of going down that path.

So we need to control our spending. We have to make sure money for the sick goes to the sick. That welfare does not make people worse off.

Most of this wicked country deserves what is coming, it’s just a shame that the tiny minority of decent people that live here are going to suffer too.

Self loathing is never pretty. Given the billions we have spent in a misplaced sense of compassion and charity I find it bizarre to think you are smacking your lips in pleasure at the suffering you imagine the British people are about to suffer.

SMSF – Sub-human at it’s finest.

SMFS,

When we pay for it, her illnesses become everyone’s business.

So no-one who’s received any treatment on the NHS is entitled to any privacy then.

Not only do your views get more spiteful and unpleasant each time you post here, they also become weirder and more incoherent, and seem increasingly as if you’re making them up as you go along.

50. So Much For Subtlety

17. TheCurlyLucy

I claim income support because I can not work a “normal” job. I can’t sell my work because I claim income support. I can not produce enough work because I am unwell. Is that clearer for you?

Not really. A little more though. So thank you for that. Your basic problem is that you cannot support yourself on the few pieces that you can do? This is a classic problem of the welfare trap because if you don’t sell some, you will not be able to get a reputation and hence sell more.

– I can not tolerate hormone tablets because my system is extremely sensitive and my depression worsens. It’s just the way it is. You may not like that fact, number 5 but, I guarantee, I like it a hell of a lot less.

I am not sure if I like it or not. That is not the question. But the point, I think, is that your depression makes this semi-cure difficult.

– I have been offered Depo-Provera as another injection treatment, which would shut down my ovaries but not cause a menopause, although, it may increase my risk of developing breast cancer. As my Mum is still undergoing treatment for it after her mastectomy, I am not at all comfortable about this option of treatment because we don’t know if I carry the BRCA1 or BRCA2 genes.

So we have another possible treatment, actually very similar to the previous one, but there is a possible side effect? Why don’t you ask for a test to see if you have these genes? It is safe enough for routine use by millions of women. The risks of breast cancer is no higher than any other form of oral contraceptive. Unless there is some special reason to think you have a higher risk?

– My award-winning consultant and GP are in agreement that I am not fit to work. Chronic fatigue is also not easy to fix. I have no fear of medical check-ups

Then there should be no problem with the Atos people.

Refresh me, do – when did I say I wanted the rest of people else to pay for “it”? Oh. I didn’t.

Yes you did. When you said:

“I’ve noticed some curiously suggestive language being used by Cameron and his crew: that people who are paid benefits “earn” that money. That people who are paid benefits ought to start “paying back society”. That those who pay tax ought to be riled at others being paid benefits.

How dare they take money they are entitled to?”

Would you like me to drive like that? Work in a shop like that? Sensible answer is no.

No I wouldn’t. But I would want you better so you don’t need to take the drugs.

No, endometriosis is not fatal, but it’s a hell to live with. I really don’t expect you to even attempt to understand my situation, but I think you ought to try to find more information and facts – not presumptions and piffle from The Daily Mail – before prejudiced blanket-assumptions cloud your head altogether.

I didn’t notice anyone claiming it was fatal. What information and fact do you think I do not have? Again it may make you feel better to think everyone is out to get you based on lies in the Daily Mail, but it is not healthy.

Please, number 5, find out more about endometriosis and depression before you berate me on subjects about which you have no or insignificant understanding. You’ve made yourself look awfully silly.

I think I can live with it. But where were you berated?

51. So Much For Subtlety

49. Larry

So no-one who’s received any treatment on the NHS is entitled to any privacy then.

Once again you need to distort. Presumably because you know you’re on such weak ground. Is is not Ought. People ought to have privacy. But the reality of the situation is that when the government pays for it, the government calls the shots and privacy goes out the window. It is as inevitable as the sun rising in the East. That is not an ought-statement either. It just is.

Not only do your views get more spiteful and unpleasant each time you post here, they also become weirder and more incoherent, and seem increasingly as if you’re making them up as you go along.

Well, to put it as politely as I can, perhaps the problem is not mine?

PN @ 45

I have no opinion about Lucy, no offence; I don`t know her.

So why comment? The easier thing to do is walk away from the thread. Simples.

SMFS.

I’m not appalled by your opinions. If you read the post that you copied you’ll see that I said you are entitled to hold it. It was the second bit that appalled me.

What’s wrong with asking about her condition? It’s none of your business. She mentioned in the blog everything that is relevant and that she wanted to share. It’s not exactly in good taste to quiz people about their health and suggest treatments unless you are asked. Of course if your weren’t a sociopath you might have realised that.

54. So Much For Subtlety

41. Jim

SMFS and the rest of the lice, I get. SMFS in particular takes a morbid fascination in humiliating the disabled. His merciless attacks on Sue Marsh are depressingly breathtaking for the vitriol she shows. A true masterclass in Tory invective

Sorry but where have I ever once attacked Sue Marsh? Where have I once used anything resembling vitriol in dealing with Sue Marsh – who is by the standards of LC perfectly reasonable and mostly polite. One of the better posters.

Why do you feel the need to make this stuff up Jim?

What is the attraction? Why come to site and be obnoxious to the contributors of a site that is clearly not aimed at you?

Jim is losing all the arguments. He wants anyone who disagrees with him banned. Go figure.

55. So Much For Subtlety

53. Chris

I’m not appalled by your opinions. If you read the post that you copied you’ll see that I said you are entitled to hold it. It was the second bit that appalled me.

Except you are not commenting on my opinions. As I said. You are forced to resort to making sh!t up precisely because you know my opinions, as expressed so far, are perfectly fine. Which suggests you do have a problem with what I said, but you know you need to fabricate – presumably because you know in your heart you’re wrong.

What’s wrong with asking about her condition? It’s none of your business. She mentioned in the blog everything that is relevant and that she wanted to share. It’s not exactly in good taste to quiz people about their health and suggest treatments unless you are asked. Of course if your weren’t a sociopath you might have realised that.

It is not for you to say if it is my business or not. It is for the OP to decide. She is sharing. She is encouraging people to take an interest in what would otherwise be none of their business. The question is how much does she want to share. As I said, that is for her to decide, not you. It is not good taste over dinner, but if someone is using their illness to make a point, it is reasonable to assume the normal dinner table rules do not apply and she is happy to share. As she was.

56. So Much For Subtlety

53. Chris

What’s wrong with asking about her condition? It’s none of your business.

I think I have just realised why you are so concerned. It is not about me is it? It is about the OP. You must have read through some of these threads before. You have a case that is based on a highly emotive but specific individual case. You have just realised that if the OP says the wrong thing, your side of the argument collapses. This is why you’re pissed isn’t it? It is not about me at all. You are not even talking to me. You are talking to the OP – to get her to shut up before she says anything embarrassing, aren’t you?

I don’t really know what to say to that.

57. So Much For Subtlety

18. Planeshift

Lets establish a small sample of who you mean by this:

Every person under the age of 18
Most people under the age of 21

I suppose that you could look at a life time of contributions.

Anyone in a low paid job whose contribution in tax is less than they would have to pay for the provision of public/merit goods such as defence, policing, courts, prevention of contagious illnessness through vaccines etc were those costs distributed equally amongst the population (i’d say about 80% of the working population there tbh)

Actually I would say that was roughly zero percent of the population. The only two that count in budget terms there are Defence and policing and the Courts. Those costs were about 40 billion and 33 billion respectively last year. The police do a p!ss poor job because no one is ever really punished and so the system is insanely expensive. I think the poor would be better off paying for their own police but no matter. 73 billion sounds a lot, but VAT brings in some 100 billion a year. Which the poor pay. More than their share as a percentage of their income. So they are paying for that and more.

Anyone who had a hospital visit costing more than they cotnributed through their job.

We have a whole government body set up to work out when it is not worth paying for treatment. Every hospital has a panel whose job it is to decide if it is worth treating people or not. We do this already. Not based on individual contributions, at least not openly, but on average contributions, sure.

Somebody who retired (even if they don’t claim the pension, they may still walk down streets lit courtesey of YOUR TAX MONEY)

Still paying VAT and so still paying more than enough for those things.

Tourists on holiday here

Ahhh. Now here’s the problem. In what sense do you think someone who has flown into the UK the day before yesterday and is getting hundreds of thousands of pounds of chemotherapy today is not unfairly taking more than they are contributing?

Adults with low skills or low educational levels that make it highly unlikely they can get a well paid job (not sure whether you’d regard that as “sick”)

They are probably paying more in taxation than they are getting in value from the government unless they are very poorly paid indeed.

Or perhaps we should end this childish nonsense that your contribution and value to society is only as good as your last tax return.

Why? It is not good morals or ethics, but there is an issue there nonetheless. The government is right to be concerned about the number of NEETs. God knows LC is intermittently concerned. You think they are wrong to be? That we ought to say a life time wasted on the dole or on low income jobs is a perfectly acceptable outcome and so schools should not bother to teach anyone much?

SMFS

“Except you have not counted VAT. That’s another 160k.”

You’re one quarter right; I forgot to add the VAT she’ll pay in retirement. For the 40 years of her working life, though, I was bundling VAT and other indirect taxes into that 35% tax burden. (Income tax and NI wouldn’t take anything like 35% of her income once you take her personal allowance into account.) Given her low income in retirement, I’ll let you have another 30k.

Oh the other hand, I assumed she was going to live in retirement on 7k a year without requiring any state assistance with housing costs, social care etc. I won’t guess at the average amount of such assistance a pensioner receives, but it seems a safe bet to me that it’s more than 30k. (I also suspect the average amount of council tax paid by pensioners who were average earners, after taking council tax benefit into account, is not much more than zero.)

Priceless. Our Randian troll who claims he for hard work is posting at 3am in the morning. This after posting all day yesterday.

I think our little troll who thinks he is an expert in finance, and medical matters isa giant fake. Doubt he even has a job.

So Much Fucking Stupidity is either an astroturfer or a vampire with broadband in his coffin to keep those hours. The worst aspect of the internet is that it lets pub bores pontificate endlessly about subjects they know sod all about without the regulatory mechanism of a smack in the mouth which their bigotry would earn them in the real world

I’m enjoying SMFS’ repeated insistence that everyone is lying about him because we all secretly know he’s right.

Total delusion.

You’re being criticised becuse your comments about Lucy’s condition are astonishingly impertinent and bad-mannered, and because your overall politics are nasty and callous in the extreme.

62. Leon Wolfeson

@61 – He’s from the Ministry of Truth. Really!

@45 – “Conditionality”? Is that your latest excuse for denying dying people benefits. I see.

@35 – Great! Keep that BNP banner flying, show everyone what a pleasant human being you are! Typical of your…

@55 and 56 SMFS

Glad to see I kept you up till 3 in the morning with my two paragraph post. Try getting some sleep instead of foaming at the mouth while reading into a two paragraph blog comment. You might find that you think clearer with a good night of sleep and maybe the paranoia will go away.

Or is that the problem? If you sleep the gay, unemployed, disabled, immigrant, liberal bastards will smother you with a pillow?

Sleep tight, don’t let the bed bugs bite:-D

So Much For Subtlety

“Well no. There is no way that Victorian-style poverty could make a come back because productivity is so high. Barring a complete collapse of society anyway. The only way that could happen is if we follow Argentina down the path of Third World-dom. Argentina used to be the richest country in the world. Richer than Britain. But out of control welfare spending put paid to that and now it is dirt poor once more. Britain is showing every sign of going down that path.”

Sheer fantasy that only a deeply depraved, disturbed and deranged extremist Right-Wing mind could believe. I suppose it must make life easier if you can just invent your own reality and actually believe it.

“So we need to control our spending. We have to make sure money for the sick goes to the sick. That welfare does not make people worse off.”

Most of it did until your fellow Right-wingers decided they would rather make sick people destitute by continually lying about the amount of fraud in the system.

“Self loathing is never pretty. Given the billions we have spent in a misplaced sense of compassion and charity I find it bizarre to think you are smacking your lips in pleasure at the suffering you imagine the British people are about to suffer”

I take no pleasure in this country becoming a right-wing dystopia, you are attempting to put words in my mouth because you are a pathological liar and all round scumbag, but when the people choose sadism, spite and mean-spiritedness over empathy and compassion and believe the lies and propaganda of Right-wing psychopaths like you and enjoy their fellow citizens being impoverished and made destitute, then they can’t complain when they reap what they sow.

If you become chronically sick and became unable to work and have to live in excruciating pain and then have to go through the humiliation of Atos tests designed to find you fit for work no matter your actual condition and you ended up being homeless and destitute and died slowly and in agony in the street while people stepped over you in the gutter, some might say you deserve that to happen to you since you revel in the suffering of sick people and enjoy taunting them on the Internet. They would find no disagreement from me.

So Much For Subtlety

“Well no. There is no way that Victorian-style poverty could make a come back because productivity is so high. Barring a complete collapse of society anyway. The only way that could happen is if we follow Argentina down the path of Third World-dom. Argentina used to be the richest country in the world. Richer than Britain. But out of control welfare spending put paid to that and now it is dirt poor once more. Britain is showing every sign of going down that path.”

Sheer fantasy that only a deeply depraved, disturbed and deranged extremist Right-Wing mind could believe. I suppose it must make life easier if you can just invent your own reality and actually believe it.

“So we need to control our spending. We have to make sure money for the sick goes to the sick. That welfare does not make people worse off.”

Most of it did until your fellow Right-wingers decided they would rather make sick people destitute by continually lying about the amount of fraud in the system.

“Self loathing is never pretty. Given the billions we have spent in a misplaced sense of compassion and charity I find it bizarre to think you are smacking your lips in pleasure at the suffering you imagine the British people are about to suffer”

I take no pleasure in this country becoming a right-wing dystopia, you are attempting to put words in my mouth because you are a pathological liar and all round scumbag, but when the people choose sadism, spite and mean-spiritedness over empathy and compassion and believe the lies and propaganda of Right-wing psychopaths like you and enjoy their fellow citizens being impoverished and made destitute, then they can’t complain when they reap what they sow.

If you become chronically sick and became unable to work and have to live in excruciating pain and then have to go through the humiliation of Atos tests designed to find you fit for work no matter your actual condition and you ended up being homeless and destitute and died slowly and in agony in the street while people stepped over you in the gutter, some might say you deserve that to happen to you since you revel in the suffering of sick people and enjoy taunting them on the Internet. They would find no disagreement from me.

66. So Much For Subtlety

60. Schmidt

So Much Fucking Stupidity is either an astroturfer or a vampire with broadband in his coffin to keep those hours. The worst aspect of the internet is that it lets pub bores pontificate endlessly about subjects they know sod all about without the regulatory mechanism of a smack in the mouth which their bigotry would earn them in the real world

It is the vampire thing! Nice to see the Left is keeping up its long standing tradition of civil discourse. Nothing like this caused Senator Giffords to be shot in the head did it?

Larry

I’m enjoying SMFS’ repeated insistence that everyone is lying about him because we all secretly know he’s right.

Total delusion.

And yet you are lying. Why?

You’re being criticised becuse your comments about Lucy’s condition are astonishingly impertinent and bad-mannered, and because your overall politics are nasty and callous in the extreme.

You have no idea about my politics and no they are not. It is for Lucy to decide and if she is happy to share, it is none of your business. She decided to put her medical condition front and centre. Just as a politician who stands in election photos with his wife and children can expect otherwise impertinent questions about who he is sleeping with. Except it is up to Lucy to decide if she wants to answer them or not.

But keep trying to save something from this car wreck. It may work out for you.

Chris

Glad to see I kept you up till 3 in the morning with my two paragraph post. Try getting some sleep instead of foaming at the mouth while reading into a two paragraph blog comment. You might find that you think clearer with a good night of sleep and maybe the paranoia will go away.

Glad to be of service. It was nothing. Like your response here. Which I take it to be yet another admission you know you’re wrong.

Robert2012

Sheer fantasy that only a deeply depraved, disturbed and deranged extremist Right-Wing mind could believe. I suppose it must make life easier if you can just invent your own reality and actually believe it.

Where is the fantasy? That Argentina was once rich? It was. Richer than Britain? It was that too. That out-of-control spending ruined the economy? That is true as well.

Most of it did until your fellow Right-wingers decided they would rather make sick people destitute by continually lying about the amount of fraud in the system.

80% of people claiming are found fit to work. 80 percent.

I take no pleasure in this country becoming a right-wing dystopia, you are attempting to put words in my mouth because you are a pathological liar and all round scumbag, but when the people choose sadism, spite and mean-spiritedness over empathy and compassion and believe the lies and propaganda of Right-wing psychopaths like you and enjoy their fellow citizens being impoverished and made destitute, then they can’t complain when they reap what they sow.

Well I agree about the dystopia, but in what sense is Britain – which spends about 33% of its GDP on various forms of redistributionist welfare – right wing?

I don’t need to put words in your mouth. You do an excellent job of condemning yourself without any help. But it is interesting that a little mild comment on the need to restrict spending on the sick to the actual sick drives you to such foam flecked raving anger. Not got any issues there Bob do you? Not feeling a little guilty about the money you’re getting are you?

If you become chronically sick and became unable to work and have to live in excruciating pain and then have to go through the humiliation of Atos tests designed to find you fit for work no matter your actual condition and you ended up being homeless and destitute and died slowly and in agony in the street while people stepped over you in the gutter, some might say you deserve that to happen to you since you revel in the suffering of sick people and enjoy taunting them on the Internet. They would find no disagreement from me.

I will keep it in mind Bob.

67. Leon Wolfeson

@65 – So you’re saying America has a left? You’re delusional.

Keep up the good work, Comrade SMFS, for the Ministry of Truth.

Shorter this whole thread:

Right wingers: Get your bloody ovaries removed, you scrounging malingerer.*

Left-wing commenters: That’s terrible. You guys really can be horrible sometimes, you know?

Right wing troll: Nice to see the Left is keeping up its long standing tradition of civil discourse. Nothing like this caused Senator Giffords to be shot in the head did it?

Anyone sane: !&#!??

* Note for the hard of thinking: a horrible insult with a question mark on the end is still a horrible insult.

OK, SMFS, I’ll bite, since apparently you genuinely don’t get what was impertinent about quizzing the OP on her medical history: what on earth makes you think she doesn’t know about, and hasn’t considered, all these options? Don’t you imagine they’ll have come up over the course of her treatment? Do you seriously think she’ll be looking at your list of what you’ve found by googling the name of her condition, slapping her forehead, and exclaiming “Of course! I never thought of that! Why didn’t my doctor mention these possibilities?” You’ve simply assumed that you know her condition better than she or her doctor does – or at least that there’s a good chance you do, or else posting about it would have been completely pointless. Can you honestly not see how monstrously arrogant that is?

So much for Subtley

80% of people claiming are found fit to work. 80 percent.

You are a compulsive and pathological liar. It has been explained to you countless times with evidence that the Atos test is flawed and isn’t fit for purpose yet you still persist in lying and quoting the Daily Mail.

Well I agree about the dystopia, but in what sense is Britain – which spends about 33% of its GDP on various forms of redistributionist welfare – right wing?

Not a total right-wing dystopia yet but no doubt you and your fellow psychopaths will keep plugging away with lying and demonising the weak and the vulnerable until you get your nirvana.

I don’t need to put words in your mouth. You do an excellent job of condemning yourself without any help. But it is interesting that a little mild comment on the need to restrict spending on the sick to the actual sick drives you to such foam flecked raving anger. Not got any issues there Bob do you? Not feeling a little guilty about the money you’re getting are you?

I have seen the many threads you have shown up in taunting the sick and disabled and lying about the amount of fraud in the system over and over again even though you have been shown with credible evidence many times the real amount of fraud and have been shown that the Atos test is not fit for purpose. You are a full blown sadistic psychopath with monomania and a pathological liar who enjoys the misery and suffering of the sick and vulnerable.

I will keep it in mind Bob

You do that, you certainly do deserve it and more and I hope it happens soon.

I have just realised that the er, “slight flaws” with the “80% fit for work” figure are quite similar in principle (but a lot more extreme) to the flaws with the official definitions of poverty and homelessness. I more or less agree with the right’s criticism of those definitons; I know that SMFS grasps the principle, but for some reason it seems beyond him to understand the exact same fucking point in relation to ESA, but here it is again: “The defintion of fit for work is MADE UP”


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