If you want a complete and consistent alternative to Neo Liberal capitalism, try the Green Party.

I agree the protestors seem disjointed, but it is an embryonic group, yet to firm up it’s aims.

Long term most people will see the status quo is unfair and must change.

Slowly, but surely, neo liberalism is dying.

I have no problem with the idea of a mixed-bag, broad-church protest movement that does little more than identify problems and ask questions. The only ‘demand’ of such a movement would be that political parties, economists, think tanks etc., from across the political spectrum, propose solutions to the problems identified and let us choose between those solutions at the ballot box.

Realistically, what’s the alternative? I don’t see any sense in the idea that a popular, grassroots protest movement should be obliged or able to sign up en masse to a manifesto or a list of specific demands. All that will happen if the protestors go down that route is that we’ll end up with the Occupy People’s Front, the People’s Occupy Front and the Popular Occupy Front arguing among themselves, making different sets of demands, and looking less and less representative of mainstream opinion and more and more easily ignorable.

Occupy London do actually have a clear, published set of demands
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/28/occupy-london-city-st-pauls

The demands focus directly on arrangements that have allowed the City to escape proper democratic oversight, and behave in an anti-social and destructive manner
http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2011/02/london-corporation-city

The occupation is no more or less broad a church than any normal political party. It has democratically agreed upon a set of demands that are far more relevant and pertinent to the current economic situation than anything in the platforms of Labour, the Tories or the LibDems. And they have done so in the space of a fortnight. While fighting high profile battles with major national institutions. And with no resources.

Europe is south america ten years ago.

I think this article misses the point entirely. The occupy movement is a spontaenous ensemble. The idea it has to forge itself into a lean mean fighting machine is not what it is about. Its about,for me at least, a weather vane about current sentiment and about what that current sentiment might become. It is for others, if they share that sentiment to provide support and input. That way the movement grows sustainable political teeth and social resonance. Personally I think the Labour Party have shown ,with the exception of Livingstone, that they share the same territory as the Tories. In my opinion those Labour members that have critised the occupy movement are an absolute disgrace. This could be a see change in British politics and British ethics if those wishing to see serious change in the way society is organised would give it support.

Europe is south america ten years ago.

Nah, continental drift is much slower than that…

Man on Clapham Omnibus,

I agree with you. It was partially Labour’s stance on this that persuaded me to leave Labour for the Green’s.

Man on Clapham Omnibus,

Personally I think the Labour Party have shown ,with the exception of Livingstone, that they share the same territory as the Tories

It is probably worth pointing out that in according to current polls, Ken Livingstone stands to lose an election to a Conservative quite convincingly, so to suggest that Labour are wrong (at least politically – morally is up to you) not to support the occupy movement might not be electorally smart. People might agree with the sentiments, but they do not have wide popular support despite this (indeed, I bet a fair chunk of the population now think they are against the church rather than anything else).

I agree that this article misses the point. The Occupy “movement” represents many sections of society and has the sympathy and support of more. That’s the way the world is! The fact that there may be a dichotomy between those who favour more government and those with a laissez faire attitude is neither here not there. The point is that people are fed up with the status quo and realise that something needs to be done. Pressure on the protestors to come up with answers, and criticism of their failure to do so is fatuous. Just look at the Euro-zone or G20. They have struggled to come up with cogent policies. It is not for the protestors to provide solutions. their function is to ask and highlight the questions and keep them in the public view.

You say “now the house of cards has fallen”

I think you’ll find events thus far are merely a bit of a wobble compared to what is to come. Occupy stands for change, perhaps before it’s too late and will makes demands conspicuously absent from any mainstream discussion, for denial and delusion reign in that sphere.

@1 – If you want the poor freezing to death, you mean.

The greens can’t be trusted with science, and sitting with the regionialists rather than any rationalists in the EU parliament isn’t inspiring either.

Emma; If there’s a good chance of them being forcibly evicted, bluntly, then the images from that have a good chance of causing a backlash against this government. Cynical? Yes, but we long since passed the stage where that can limit tactical options.

This article just shows how little Labour has to do with the left. And you’ll wonder again the percentage voting drops again and labour’s vote falls off again. New Labour progressively lost those voters for that reason, and Ed has not re-engaged with us.

I hear the same and similar sentiments all the time in 38 Degrees, for instance.

@7

I dont think this is about short termism. The fact that Liverstone might lose the election to a buffoon really adds to the point that a political and ethical impetues is required in British politics. As the Euro breaks up and the British economy tumbles there will, I suspectbe a growing impetus for change which will ultimately be reflected in a realignment of political groupings.

@7

That was directed to @8 sorry

@11 – It can’t change. Majoritan voting systems cannot support more than 2.x major parties.

The only way to get change is PR.

Man on Clapham Omnibus is right. I think what goes on in conversations between protesters and bankers and now protesters and church will be very interesting.

This was a great post. Cheers!

David – the problem isn’t the list of demands. The question is, how do they plan to make those demands happen? What’s the political cost of not listening?

I’m following the Guardian’s live blogging on the Occupy Protest and the general strike on Wednesday called in Oakland, California:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/02/occuply-oakland-general-strike-live

This is in America, supposedly the most “free market” capitalist country. San Francisco, just across the bay from Oakland, has the head offices of the Bank of America, one of the largest banks in the world.

Movie buffs might also be amused to recall that SF was the location for the Dirty Harry movies starring Clint Eastwood as well as for Bullit, starring Steve McQueen, with that notorious car chase.

If the #Occupy movement is to achieve anything then it has to avoid being taken over by people who speak the right language but who don’t practice what they preach.

The Occupy movement has already been infiltrated by the unions who pay their leaders enough to be in the 1%.

Today we had the Arch Bishop chiming in.

The Church of England pays a top salary of 300,000 (and three more above 100,000). They run an investment fund worth 5 billion which avoids paying taxes.

The Church owns many residential and retail properties in expensive London. They push up rents and rent out to fancy chocholatiers and fashion boutiques. They are more interested in promoting Christmas shopping events than making Christmas about Jesus.

They own a lot of land that they sell to developers at huge profits. They own farm land on which they are increasing the rent by over 15% which pushes up food prices for the poor.

Nearly half of their funds are invested outside the UK. They create jobs abroad rather than for their own congregation.

They are more interested in funding their pensions than in helping the needy.

The Church of England are now more about worshipping money than God.

More info on my blog:

http://mrnonnymouse.blogspot.com/2011/11/worshipping-money.html

@17 Sunny

‘ the problem isn’t the list of demands. The question is, how do they plan to make those demands happen? What’s the political cost of not listening?’

No that isn’t the question. You seem to think that this little group has the responsibility to make ‘their demands’ happen. The reality is that these people are merely reflecting a big sentiment in the wider population. It is sad that people such as yourself and your Labour cohorts refuse to acknowledge this. Otherwise you and your like might get behind this initiative and reinforce it. Sadly this isnt the cosey little world youre used to any more! Political realities are changing and the dinosaurs better step up or lay down.

News from San Francisco:

A resolution expressing support for the “Occupy Wall Street” movement that also asks for force not to be used against the demonstrators in San Francisco was approved today by the city’s Board of Supervisors.

The resolution, introduced last week by Supervisor John Avalos and amended today by Supervisor Scott Wiener, asks Mayor Ed Lee and the Police Department to “ensure that there will be no unnecessary use of force to dislodge the Occupy SF demonstrators.”
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/SF-Supes-Support-OccupySF-133091258.html

Latest news from around St Paul’s:

“St Paul’s protesters ‘allowed to stay until the New Year’

“Protesters camped outside London’s St Paul’s Cathedral are to be allowed to stay until next year, lawyers acting for the group have claimed.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8866060/St-Pauls-protesters-allowed-to-stay-until-the-New-Year.html

The article is everything that is wrong with British politics. Party-inspired, partial, simplistic. So what, a group of disparate people in tents can’t come up with a manifesto to cure the ills of global capitalism – after what a whole week? Occupy is a visible and eloquent statement of the problem and what is needed more than anything is a general acceptance that we have a problem. What is gradually dawning on people – and Occupy is the most potent expression of this – is that people who thought they’d immunised themselves, their families and their lifestyles against the worst uncertainties of the global economic roller coaster – are finding that their careers, their pensions, the welfare state, their disposable income are crumbling and they need to start a real re-engagement with society. Many of them would have been perfectly happy to ride out the storm clinging to their own particular mast while others fell overboard. But having seen how easily their own economic security can be removed, provides the best possible impetus to park a tent in an inconvenient place and say what the hell..

If anyone doubts the power of this simple and seemingly futile action, I suggest they consider how the presence of Occupy has convulsed the Church. Cheered on by the Mail et al and their friends in the City, St Paul’s first reaction was to join the sneering and to remove this obstruction to the lucrative Gift Shop. But faced with no real violence to condemn – they’ve been forced to retreat, reject the pseudo-commercial considerations and return to principle. That in itself is no mean feat.

CS @ 23:

“Occupy is a visible and eloquent statement of the problem and what is needed more than anything is a general acceptance that we have a problem.”

I think most people agree that we have a problem. The issue is what we do to solve that problem. Otherwise you might as well sit around saying “There should be more nice things in the world!” and “Nasty things shouldn’t happen to nice people!” for all the good it’ll do.

@24: “I think most people agree that we have a problem. The issue is what we do to solve that problem.”

Central bankers are thinking constructively about the issues, hence the recent Wincott Memorial lecture by Andrew Haldane, executive director at the Bank of England for Financial Stability, on: Control rights (and wrongs):
http://www.wincott.co.uk/Andy_Haldane_2011.pdf

A google search will retrieve press reports of the lecture and comments.

As this book from 2009 shows, there is nothing really new about financial crises: Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff: This time is different – 800 years of financial crises (Princeton UP 2009)

xxx @ 24

“I think most people agree that we have a problem.The issue is what we do to solve that problem. Otherwise you might as well sit around saying “There should be more nice things in the world!” and “Nasty things shouldn’t happen to nice people!” for all the good it’ll do.”

Most people understand that we are in a period of economic retrenchment and that will have an impact on their living standards. Agreed. But we have had those before and after a while things get better. For the majority – and I am talking about the non-politics-participating majority here, not the political-gorging minority – they accept the roller coaster in anticipation that the ups will at worst cancel out the downs.

What we have now is something much more fundamental. The growth of corporations which have more power than States. The financial impoverishment of States, the utter irrelevance, impotence and dishonesty of those engaged in traditional politics, the fact that business interests trump absolutely any argument in the public realm. All this means that pitching a tent outside St Paul’s with quiet dignity may indeed do more to bring home the true nature of the “problem” than politicking on the web or in Parliament.

The problem with your need to get on with the solutions before the problem is fully understood is that it inevitably means assuming the tenters are creatures of the Labour left, leading to campaigning for a truly left Government as the solution, leading everyone straight back into the arms of those who stood idle while the conditions which got us in the mess were created.

Thursday news of Occupy Protests from the land of the free:

US Occupy protesters clash with police at Oakland port
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15568057

23. Citizen Smudge is bang on.

Look how the action has changed the focus of the church around. The happy accident bringing this group to St Pauls has given the church what it craves the most- relevancy and those at the top have changed their minds and are deciding to be relevant in this protest, rightly focusing on what the protest is about around the world rather than tents on the steps.

If you need to see any more waves this shambolic collection of tents is making, look at the front page of The Times the other day quoting some mysterious protester who had given up because the camp had been overtaken with drink and drugs, then the next day a buried article about the Canon dropping the eviction case and entering into dialogue with the protesters.

Protesters may not be articulating successfully, and most probably wouldn’t listen. because of this situation the church are articulating for them.