Well said Joey, “mentally deficient right-wing numpties” indeed. The more I read about Barton, the more I like him.

Regarding Lennon’s claims about Barton, and indeed Katie Price, surely this is straightforward defamation in its most blatant guise? I’m no fan of this country’s libel laws, but would be very happy to see Barton take action and see this racist, hooligan, coke-dealing little shit lose the tanning parlour which he owns.

@1 I’d rather he keep it, that way it stops him from getting away with claiming to be a member of the white working class when he is in fact a member of the orange petite bourgeoisie.

In fairness we have no idea what is going on. We have a bunch of loons on the one hand with a variety of social and personal problems. And on the other we have more spin doctors than Number Ten. Even if he did join the FA would have forced him to deny it. No footballer would be allowed to go anywhere near the EDL. I assume a small number of them do, in fact, support the EDL or the BNP. There are a lot of them after all and presumably the full range of political opinion is represented. It would just be career-ending to say so.

Presumably JB is seen as an easy target by the EDL because his 17yr old brother was found guilty of a racist murder?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4477156.stm

LMAO!!!

YOu hypocritical pricks!

We have recently had another 6 Muslims arrested on terrorist charges, a report just a few days ago about up to 2000 suspected suicide bombers in the UK made up of the 2000 Muslims we are watching anyway who have been slated as threats to the UK.

We’ve had 7/7, Glasgow attack, plane bomb attempts, car bomb attempts, various other attempts at terrorism, HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of Muslims convicted of terrorisn, firebombing publishers, street attacks on teachers, knife attacks on MP’s, death threats of all kinds constantly and massively encroaching Islamic practices and law into out society………

BUT STILL you drone on about the fucking EDL!

OOOOOO! What a threat! I mean lets compare that list of ISamic/Muslim threat to the fucking EDL!
And yet NOT ONE ARTICLE EVER has appeared in LC about rampant, growing, constant Islamic threat, intimidation, plots and murder in the UK!
(unless it’s to say there is none!)

You fucking appeasing, quisling, hypocritical, fake liberal cowards.

Nurse! The screens!

Typically lively comments here .

I think what the appeasers and certainly myself believe is well: you don’t try to combat a load of islamafascists by putting a load of old fashioned fascists in charge?

They have a lot in common when you think of it. An ample disregard for people who aren’t like them. Speaking up for ‘traditional values’ and for what they class as the indigenous people’s rights.

Of course you can’t have hatred without having a passion for something. A sense of injustice. I’m not saying for one second that far rightist, leftist, fundamentalists aren’t right in some of the half truths they peddle. Things are wrong and Inbalanced. It’s just their solutions to these ‘problems’ always end up as being violent, direct action!

[5] well to be fair, Islamic nutters will kill you if you cross them – as Salman Rushdie found to his cost (for writing a book).
So did this woman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8120142/Christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-Pakistan-for-blasphemy.html

According to Laughing Boy Jim Boy Davey Boy Boy McHorse Boy, the definition of “hypocritical” appears to be “capable of typing a sentence that doesn’t involve ranting about Muslims”.

Do you think he’s a real person, or do you think that the Daily Mail Headline Generator has savaged its handlers, escaped into the wild and is now hiding out at LC?

@the a&e charge nurse

Anders Breivik would suggest that the right wing nutters aren’t averse to a bit of killing

[10] but that’s not the point here – the question asked by Laughing Boy is why are there so few posts on LC (according to him) on the islamic bad boys who use all manner of violence, or oppression, to promote their lunatic views about god’s work?

It is a reasonable question given the threat past and present.

@ 11

I’m having trouble attaching the word “reasonable” to any part of his post. Yes, LC seems to have a bias against reporting negative stories about Muslims, and this has been pointed out by other commenters who aren’t obsessive bigoted morons like our friend upthread.

But what’s that got to do with this story? What do you expect – that Sunny will find a story about the EDL lying about celebrity involvement and think “Of course! The perfect opportunity to write about the Islamist threat!” Like all his posts, Laughing Jim Davey Horse Boy’s comment about is pure whataboutary, bigotry and blind, moronic hate. Please stop trying to make the trolls feel welcome.

@11 P’raps because no one actually attempts to stick up for the Islamic bad boys, whereas the EDL have many crawling out of the woodwork asking for us to take on board the EDL’s position regarding all Muslims.

[12] my problem is not with muslims, but the extreme brand of islam – I’m sure we both agree this is an important distinction?

Whether we like it or not the blogsphere has created a climate where the EDL and islamic extremists have become inextricably linked, perhaps because both groups are more alike than they care to admit, at least in so far as neither are adverse to using violence to promote their childlike understanding of the world?

[13] I agree nobody sticks up for islamic extremism but there is perhaps an imbalance on LC between the level of editorial condemnation – to my mind this links in with the mess we have got ourselves into, over the notion that we should try and respect all cultures when certain aspects of those cultures are plain barmy?

“s why are there so few posts on LC (according to him) on the islamic bad boys who use all manner of violence, or oppression, to promote their lunatic views about god’s work?”

I’ve seen few threads on here condeming the violence of criminal gangs in mexico as well……..

@ 14

“my problem is not with muslims, but the extreme brand of islam – I’m sure we both agree this is an important distinction?”

Of course.

“Whether we like it or not the blogsphere has created a climate where the EDL and islamic extremists have become inextricably linked, perhaps because both groups are more alike than they care to admit, at least in so far as neither are adverse to using violence to promote their childlike understanding of the world?”

Agreed, but that doesn’t make one a hypocrite (or traitor, quisling, fake liberal, cunt or any of LaughingJimDaveyBoyHorse’s favourite insults) simply to criticise the EDL, does it?

@14 Personally I prefer to target those certain aspects individually. For example it’s possible to be opposed to a wider expansion of Sharia law (or just Sharia in principle) without also being opposed to Muslims or Islam in general, and how Muslims wish to live their lives. True there’s some conflicting overlap with those positions (ie some may wish to live under Sharia, for example), but then that’s what we call politics.

[13] I agree nobody sticks up for islamic extremism but there is perhaps an imbalance on LC between the level of editorial condemnation

I took it as read that Sunny & co. condemn terrorism but YMMV.

@ A&E

to my mind this links in with the mess we have got ourselves into, over the notion that we should try and respect all cultures when certain aspects of those cultures are plain barmy?

The notion that it is only the extreme and violent wing of Islam that presents a problem for liberals is repeated time and again here, but I have to say I suspect it is somewhat disingenuous.

At its core, Islam has many illiberal components- in both teaching and practice it espouses misogyny, homophobia and overbearing patriarchy and only an obsession with cultural relativism and phobia of racism prevents this simple truth being stated more clearly and more often.

Incidentally the above is equally true of many strands of Christianity, Catholicism in particular.

It may be that, in time, most UK Muslims will progress to a kind of secular Islam where the illiberal teachings are ignored. Gay Pakistanis will be out and proud and the young women will drink, smoke and have premature sex like the rest of us. I do know many who have already have moved on.

But we need to encourage this process and we will not do so by giving authoritarian behaviour our tacit blessing. Because it is also true that it can go the other way and the evidence suggests that extreme radicals and terrorists seem to be as much home grown as imported.

@5 I seem to remember a certain Norwegian extremist not so long ago applauding the trajectory of the EDL….

“But we need to encourage this process and we will not do so by giving authoritarian behaviour our tacit blessing”

Pagar, I agree with what you’ve written above. However I think you need to bear in mind that attempts to encourage the development of ‘secular islam’ can very easily be counter-productive and backfire. Constant calls in the media for muslims to change very often lead to an increase in fear (justified) amongst muslims that they will be subjected to restrictions on their civil liberties to practice a religion as well as suffer an onslaught of prejudice – physical and verbal – from unthinking morons.

Tell me – do you think young 18 year old male muslims react to EDL marches by thinking “well they have a point – historically my culture has been intolerant of homosexuality. I’m going to give it up and go down the pub”?

Or do they think “my friends and family are being subjected to attacks, and calls for us to be driven from our homes. The response isn’t to appease these morons”?

When a community percieves itself as under attack, the reactionary elements always come to the forefront and reformers are silenced. This makes the EDL’s calls for an agressive confrontation with Islam utterly stupid. The way to encourage a secular islam is through inclusion and treating muslims as humans who are entitled to choose whether they want to practice a religion, entitled to exactly the same rights and opportunities as the rest of us, and entitled to not be demonised by the media on a daily basis. The role of government should be to protect the rights of muslims not infringe them, this includes protecting muslims from forced marriages (as happens) and attacks on muslims who abandon their faith, but it also includes protecting the rights of those who choose to practice conservative interpretations of islam as well.

@ 19 pagar

I think in dealing with any religion (especially Islam atm for obvious reasons), people tend to go to great lengths to point out that in condemning extremists they aren’t tarring more moderate believers with the same brush. This is generally a good thing, but it probably leads to the kind of thing you describe, where people try to avoid criticising more mainstream beliefs at all, even when they deserve criticism.

This can be a mistake, albeit an understandable one. Religion isn’t all bad, but it is a strong factor supporting certain bad attitudes (e.g. those around gender and sexuality). If people are demanding, for example, that gay adoption or marriage be banned, we shouldn’t let that pass simply because we respect them for having otherwise moderate religious beliefs.

@19 – Except the progress to liberality is being distinctly slowed by hostile elements within the population and the government’s effective encouragement of identity politics.

@5 – At least we don’t have near-identical views to the Islamists, as you do.

erm? Is he Lennon or is he Robinson!!!! WE NEED TO KNOW!

@ Planeshift/Chaise

I don’t think we’re far apart at all.

I do agree that the EDL are entirely unhelpful in terms of the problem and my experience of young Muslims is that they are increasingly enjoying the delights of our secular society.

And that’s all good.

What would help relationships even more, of course, would be if our government and its allies stopped attacking Muslim countries and assassinating Muslim leaders.

@16 Chaise & others

Isn’t the problem one of a confrontation between enlightenment values and religious fundamentalism? I’ve no time for radical Islam but why stop there? I despise the Intelligent Designers and the other nutjobs who want to go back to the dark ages just as much.

@26 – Great choice. The dark ages were limited to Europe. Meanwhile, the Islamic states flourished and hosted universities of learning.

Extremist Muslims are quite obviously a problem. They are also, thankfully, a small minority. The problem with the EDL is that they help stir up ill feeling towards the entire Muslim community. This leads to more moderate Muslims feeling isolated and angry and a few of them will turn towards the extremist groups.

If the EDL just disappeared and government did something to combat the anti-Islam feeling that is growing in the country then Muslims would feel less isolated from mainstream society and the numbers of extremists would fall.

@30 – Ahh, a basic lack of knowledge of history I see. Typical xenophobic nonsense.

There’s a reason that my people did better for 1300 years in Islamic states than they did Christian, before British and French colonialism whipped up Arab Nationalism to a fever pitch.

Leon, are you suggesting that radical Islamists would take us into a liberal, inquiring period or what? It seems to me that they have a lot in common with Christian fundamentalists, which was my point.

Well, well – the thread goes off topic to talk about violent Islam, and for once I’m not to blame : The dark ages were limited to Europe. Meanwhile, the Islamic states flourished and hosted universities of learning.

IMHO historians would call that extremely simplistic and wrong.
The phrase ‘dark ages’ is no longer so often used, as Europe was a lot more advanced in those years than the phrase suggests.

Likewise to paint all of Arabia as ‘flourishing’ and a centre of learning – likewise is historically wrong. The space within Islam for truly new thinking was (is) limited: but yes some learning was maintained through Arabian libraries.

edit fail – sorry…

In there I quoted leon’s

> The dark ages were limited to Europe. Meanwhile, the Islamic states flourished and hosted universities of learning.

and from ‘IMHO’ onwards it was me.

@30 – Er…no

I certainly, as a Jew, have a slight issue with the Islamism. But it’s the wave of Arab nationalism caused by British and French colonialism in the first half of the last century which is at the root of many of these issues.

And they have a lot in common with christian fundamentalists, yes. AND the far right…

@ Pagar – agreed.

@ Cherub

Yes – the problem isn’t religion per se, it’s authoritarian attitudes, antirationalism, and a refusal to see things from anyone else’s POV. Religion just happens to be a risk factor for these trends [and before anyone else jumps on my back: yes, non-religious people can act like this too, and yes, even fervent religion has its plus sides].

@ Leon

It’s true that the Muslim world did a lot better than the West in many ways during what we would call the Dark Ages – but that doesn’t mean that modern Muslims calling for things like a return to traditional gender values and the oulawing of homosexuality, all the way up to “behead those who insult Allah”, are in any way enlightened. Every society produces reactionary idiots.

Joey Barton is a nonse, matters not. In fact, it matters not what is said on this page. But for all you appeasing limp-wristed lefties, I will give you a little advice, until you have the experience of living and working in places in the Middle East, and West Africa, you do not have a clue about what is waiting for you. Islam is unconditional, it takes no prisoners, and just in case you do not understand the word Islam, it means “Submission”. You can have it as far as I am concerned, just do not bitch later. I am out of UK, and in a place with force of arms, a difference can be made. You can eat it!