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Protests as Southwark ‘supporting Tories’ on riot evictions


10:05 am - August 31st 2011

by Sunny Hundal    


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Labour-run Southwark Council in south London will face protesters today over its decision to evict entire families from council houses if just one member took part in the recent riots.

The council has already written to 35 families informing them it will evict them.

Nearly 200 people have signed up to a planned protest, which takes place from 5pm at Southwark Town Hall today.

London Assembly Member Jenny Jones (Greens) wrote to Southwark council leader Peter John yesterday, accusing him of “supporting the government’s idea of evictions” and penalising entire families.

Southwark council is among the very few councils in the country taking such action, along with hard-right Tory-run councils in Hammersmith & Fulham, and Wandsworth.

Research by the government’s communities department a few years ago found that evicting ‘problem families’ from their homes only increased crime and anti-social behaviour in an area.

Jenny Jones Letter to Southwark

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


1. ex-Labour voter

Shame on Southwark council.

Well done, Jenny Jones.

It’s collective punishment. How anyone in their right mind can think it’s reasonable to inflict homelessness on people who took no part whatsoever in the riots baffles me.

Do the Tories really want to become one of the last tribes in Europe to hold people responsible for the crimes of their blood relatives?

Utterly disgraceful. I noticed that Hammersmith & Fulham Tories were crowing. Writing about Andy Slaughter, they said,

“His views are at odds with most voters, including most Labour supporters, as well as several Labour councils including Barking and Dagenham, Brent, Greenwich, Manchester, Nottingham, Salford, Southwark and Waltham Forest”

And

“They would see the rioters allowed get away with retaining the privilege of subsidised, secure, Council housing”

Did you see how they managed to slip in the word “subsidised”?

http://www.hfconservatives.com/

@3

I believe Council Housin g is subsidised – it is not being charged at market rates and to me this is a subsidy.

You will no doubt argue that the treasury makes a small surplus on Council housing, but this ignores the recent injection of Decent Homes funding and it is genarally recognised that the management,k maintenance and major repairs allowances under the current Housing subsidy regime are not sufficient.

In the South East it is not possible to make a profit out of building new council homes at current social housing rent levels.

Theres a difference between being subsidised and not charging market rents. My council recovers from its rents the costs of all maintenance, administration, interest charges etc and makes a small surplus.

The return is no where near what a private sector organisation would tolerate – but is that a subsidy?

@5

Try reading my post.

@4

“I believe Council Housin g is subsidised – it is not being charged at market rates and to me this is a subsidy”

That is no reason at all to describe it as “subsidised”. It’s a gross misrepresentation. But it’s only to be expected from opponents of social housing like Stephen Greenhalgh who also describes it as “welfare housing”.

Over to you.

@7

There is a massive waiting list for social housing – people want it because it is cheaper than the market and it is rationed based on need. Most people would love to pay social housing rents, but only a few get to do so. Local authorities are not achieving value for money on their assets.

Also as I explained previously the Housing rsubsidy regime is constrained by set allowances which are generally regarded as not being adequate, hence the appalling state of the social housing stock which led to the call for the Decent Homes standard ansd the increased funding. The new self financing regime has effectively increased these allowances to make it more viable.

Most importantly social housing does not reflect the full capital cost. Housing stock and the land was inherited very cheaply. The reason why Councils have not built any new stock is becuase it is not viable for them to do so at the rents that they are allowed to charge, even if the land is free.

The only way it is viable is either with the assistance of grant (such as the short lived local authority new build scheme which provided grant of around 50% of build costs), or through cross subsidising social housing by private sales.

The idea of punishing parents is rather idiotic. In liberal Britain, we went to great lengths over the last few decades to completely abolish all forms of authority over children. Now–Shock! Horror! Gasp!–children are out of control, and the response of the government is not to re-establish these much needed institutions, but instead to punish parents who are already prevented by law from disciplining their own children! Logical, this most certainly ain’t.

@8

Thanks for the right libertarian-inspired narrative. But you’re still wrong: council housing is not subsidised and no amount of market-speak or business jargonese is going to change that.

You’ve produced nothing but deflections and diversions.Like this,

“Most people would love to pay social housing rents, but only a few get to do so. Local authorities are not achieving value for money on their assets”

Which rather deliberately overlooks the vastly-inflated rents in the private sector…not to mention the buy-to-let boom, which has impacted adversely on housing in this country.

Your free market-speak is of little practical use to anyone but those who speak the same language.

11. London Jason

“Nearly 200 people have signed up to a planned protest, which takes place from 5pm at Southwark Town Hall today.”

….but only 60 could be bothered to turn up.

I suppose the Jeremy Kyle was especially good today.

12. Sevillista

Social housing is subsidised, I don’t see any debate about that (but it is not an accounting cost, but a foregone gain).

But, if one accepts this, owner occupation is subsidised too. And is subsidised in a far more distorting way.

No capital gains tax is charged on owner occupied homes. No income tax is charged on the income from the asset (imputed rents), again distorting investment and consumption decisions. No VAT is charged on housing consumption, unlike other consumption. This massively distorts investment and consumption decisions and steers investment funds into unproductive bricks and mortar rather than productive uses.

The value of the subsidy to owner occupation has been estimate as £17 billion. And this ignores the value of past subsidies, notably the discounts offered in right to buy and mortgage interest subsidies. A bigger subsidy than that offered to social housing, but one those arguing against “subsidised social housing” are rather silent about…

13. paul barker

The attitude of Southwark Council seems perfectly reasonable to me. I am a Southwark Tenant.

14. Chaise Guevara

@ 9 vimothy

“The idea of punishing parents is rather idiotic. In liberal Britain, we went to great lengths over the last few decades to completely abolish all forms of authority over children. Now–Shock! Horror! Gasp!–children are out of control, and the response of the government is not to re-establish these much needed institutions, but instead to punish parents who are already prevented by law from disciplining their own children! Logical, this most certainly ain’t.”

Put the hyperbole juice away, would you? It’s an exaggeration to say we went to “great lengths” to “completely abolish all forms of authority over children” – all that happened was we stopped parents from hitting their kids too hard and teachers from hitting them at all.

As for parents being “prevented by law from disciplining their own children”… that’s a flat untruth. As a kid I was smacked, grounded, had privileges taken away, all perfectly legally. Fact-based, your rant most certainly ain’t.

This is not a new story – what is a story is why this website totally failed to address this issue over the last two weeks and instead just pretended it was a policy being adopted by Conservative Councils.

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/08/26/labour-mp-andy-slaughter-speaks-out-against-evicting-riot-families/

The record of Labour councils such as Southwark and Greenwich is a disgrace.

In Southwark it has to be said it only Simon Hughes (not Harriet Harman or Tessa Jowell) who are challenging the daft policies being adopted by the Labour Council.

Hyperbole juice, eh.

Funny isn’t it: even after the riots, we’re still hysterical right wingers, droning on unnecessarily about the out of control yoot. I suspect that might be a bit of Overton Window shifting going on here as well. Imagine if a couple of months ago, someone had said that our children are an out of control law unto themselves, and that unless we re-establish order in their lives, they might sack and burn London and our major cities while the authorities look on impotently. They’d have been dismissed as hyperbolic loons and laughed out of town.

Now that the riots have happened, of course, no one is shocked about them. Oh god what sub-Peter Hitchens nonsense. We’ve always had riots man. What’s the big deal? Just get over it…

@12. Sevillista: “This massively distorts investment and consumption decisions and steers investment funds into unproductive bricks and mortar rather than productive uses.”

How is a personally owned home less productive than one owned by a landlord or public body? It is land, bricks, wood and roof tiles whoever owns it.

18. Leon Wolfson

@16 – The only people shocked about them are your set. Who can’t see that you were instrumental in setting up the powder keg. And your reponse is … laying more fuse.

@charlieman

You misunderstand my point.

The distortion is in encouraging savings into second-hand houses (versus more productive investment), encouraging people to over-consume housing (and live in larger homes than they would without the subsidy) and distorting tenure choice. Our economy would grow faster (due to higher investment in productive activities), housing need would be lower (as people would stop over-consuming housing) and other distortionary taxes could be lowered (e.g. income tax), also boosting growth if the subsidy to owner occupied housing was removed.

I think the subsidy to social housing is entirely valid. Firstly, planning restrictions are inefficiently tight in many areas (e.g. preventing high-rise build in London), artificially inflating house prices to a level where many cannot afford it – there is an efficiency case for housing subsidy for low-income individuals as well as an equity one. Secondly, demand-side subsidies do not have the supply impact of subsidies to social house build and tend to merely inflate prices even more.

20. Chaise Guevara

@ 16 Vimothy

You’re not going to achieve anything by comparing your own silly hyperbole to a hypothetical opponent’s silly hyperbole. Claiming that parents are now legally banned from disciplining their children is ridiculous. Back the claim or admit that you’re wrong.

Parents in England and Wales who smack children so hard it leaves a mark will face up to five years in jail under new laws in force from Saturday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175905.stm

God forbid that somebody else smacks your naughty child, red mark or no. And don’t expect the “reasonable chastisement” defence to last long either.

Now, answer my question. Precisely what are the institutions that govern the behaviour of children so effectively, what is their genealogy, and what were they up to during the riots?

People against any evictions don’t like this I presume:

Under the terms of agreement, all tenants and their household members are forbidden from causing nuisance, property damage and anti-social or criminal activities. Breaches of the agreement render them liable to eviction. The Housing Act also sets out grounds for eviction due tenancy breaches, nuisance, anti-social and criminal behaviour.

It will probably come to nothing as it would be against people’s rights.
Particularly if there were children living in the property.

23. Leon Wolfson

@22 – No, it’s fine that under the HA they can be expelled for *repeated* behaviour. Not the one-off’s – often caused by, for example (not in this case, but…) policemen with a quota to fill harassing kids.

@vimothy

If only we had more child abuse, the riots would not have happened.

Clearly, the children who burnt London in a fit of violent resentment all live lives of carefree innocence and idyllic bliss. You are indeed winning. And how!

26. Chaise Guevara

@ 21 vimothy

“God forbid that somebody else smacks your naughty child, red mark or no. And don’t expect the “reasonable chastisement” defence to last long either.”

There are a lot of questions over how we can know that a randomly selected schoolteacher or nanny or friend in loco parentis will know the line between chastisement and abuse. Plus those of the “parent power” persuasion would no doubt argue that someone else smacking their kid infringes upon their rights as a parent.

“Now, answer my question[s].”

Fixed…

“Precisely what are the institutions that govern the behaviour of children so effectively”

Withdrawal of privileges. Grounding. Smacking in a way that isn’t actually harmful.

“what is their genealogy”

Descended from the Fotherington-Thompsons, I believe, and related to the Quayles of Yorkshire through a maiden aunt. Could you rephrase the question so it makes sense?

“and what were they up to during the riots?”

Likewise. How can a form of discipline be “up to something” during the riots?

Basically, I’m not going to attempt to graft meaning onto your deliberately vague questions. I know this trick: I work out the most likely interpretation and respond to it; you accuse me of straw manning you or whatever. If you actually have something to say, say it.

@vimothy

Children from poorer and more dysfunctional backgrounds who made up most of the rioters are disciplined through physical violence to a greater (and more forceful) way. Look at Child Protection cases to see that.

Evidence also suggests that children hit by their parents are more violent themselves.

So I don’t understand why you think encouraging parents to hit their children more will solve the problem.

28. Robin Levett

@vimothy:

Are you a parent? If so, have you stopped beating your child(ren)?

29. Robin Levett

…but back to the point.

Let us remember that the premise is the riots were not a reflection of protest, but of pure criminality.

We have IDS wanting to take benefits away from this population of criminals. We have various local authorities (egged on by Mr Pickles) trying to take away their homes. We therefore have the Government hoping to create a population of homeless and incomeless who will be unable to find housing (no money) or jobs (named and shamed) or benefit, and who are (in their terms) unable to stop themselves from induging their criminality even when they have both homes and income to lose. Will this assist in “crime-fighting”, I ask myself rhetorically.

Withdrawal of privileges. Grounding. Smacking in a way that isn’t actually harmful.

Surely, there are more important institutions than “withdrawal of privileges”. What about the family, school, figures of authority in youth clubs, other organic community structures…?

Likewise. How can a form of discipline be “up to something” during the riots?

Basically, I’m not going to attempt to graft meaning onto your deliberately vague questions

Obviously, “up to something” is metaphorical. Why, if the institutions meant to regulate childhood behaviour are not dysfunctional, did the riots happen in the first place? I.e., where were these successful institutions when the riots were happening? I.e., what were they “up to”?

@27. Sevillista,

I think you’ve raised a good point. We live in “anarcho-tryanny”. The people who do actually abuse their children couldn’t give two shits about our pathetic and toothless justice system. So there is not even less of the behaviour you should wish to prescribe. Instead, it is the people whom it is

The age of majority is 18 in England, therefore, it must surely be illegal to attempt to punish the parents of anyone over this age who are found guilty of rioting/looting. Maybe those chosen for evictions are people with children under the age of majority, but making families homeless with ‘problem’ children is only making the situation worse. And for those families whose child/children had no prior problems but were caught up with the madness of the crowd, destabilizing their environment is likely to harm their future especially if they have to leave their existing school.
I suppose such knee-jerk reaction doesn’t come as any surprise from the current shower known as ‘the government’.

34. Chaise Guevara

@ 30/31 vimothy

“Surely, there are more important institutions than “withdrawal of privileges”. What about the family, school, figures of authority in youth clubs, other organic community structures…?”

Oh, absolutely. We were talking in the context of direct discipline, and my examples reflected that. They weren’t meant to be exclusive. I presumed (perhaps wrongly, it now appears) that you were challenging me to come up with effective alternatives to corporal punishment.

Obviously families, schools etc. that provide kids with a supportive environment while raising them to behave responsibly can have a massive positive effect on children’s later attitudes and actions. I suspect it’s the biggest determining factor.

“Obviously, “up to something” is metaphorical. Why, if the institutions meant to regulate childhood behaviour are not dysfunctional, did the riots happen in the first place? I.e., where were these successful institutions when the riots were happening? I.e., what were they “up to”?”

Thanks for the clarification. Two major points assert themselves here:

1) No system is perfect. There are probably people who will inevitably turn to violence, despite the best efforts of society.

2) The fact that these institutions work does not mean that everyone gets to benefit from the institutions. If someone comes from a dysfunctional family, goes to a bad school, and never really receives much in the way of positive guidance, the problem isn’t that these institutions didn’t work for them, it’s that the institutions were never provided to them in the first place.

In other words, the riots don’t show that modern methods of discipline are ineffective, they show that discipline itself is not universally taught (and sometimes just doesn’t work regardless). And they certainly don’t prove that bringing back the birch (or whatever) will fix the problem.

Also, remember that bringing back corporal punishment would need more justification than just proving that it’s slightly more effective in correcting people’s behaviour. To prevent one evil (criminal behaviour in adults), you’d be using another evil (violence against children). You’d have to demonstrate that the cure wasn’t worse than the disease. It seems a bit odd to try to prevent people from growing up to commit crimes such as violent assault by authorising people to commit violent assault against them when they’re young.


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
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  77. alscab

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  78. Charlie Kiss

    Green party fundamentally opposes evictions in Southwark. Absolutely disgusting for a labour Council! Vote Green! http://t.co/tUSYvZ0

  79. penny anderson

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  80. Adam Pogonowski

    Green party fundamentally opposes evictions in Southwark. Absolutely disgusting for a labour Council! Vote Green! http://t.co/tUSYvZ0

  81. chris

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  82. Sarah

    Green party fundamentally opposes evictions in Southwark. Absolutely disgusting for a labour Council! Vote Green! http://t.co/tUSYvZ0

  83. Tash Ross

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  84. Charlie Kiss

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  85. Charlie Kiss

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  86. gloria lewington

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  87. gloria lewington

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  88. Ben Sellers

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  89. Indra Persaud

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council serving eviction orders to the families of rioters http://t.co/HGo0YLL via @OwenJones84

  90. Gareth Davies

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  91. Gareth Davies

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  92. Noxi

    RT @owenjones84: The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a ..- serving eviction orders to innocent families of rioters http://t.co/RB7GGAc

  93. criticalbill

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  94. Keltis

    RT @owenjones84: The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a ..- serving eviction orders to innocent families of rioters http://t.co/RB7GGAc

  95. Lily

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  96. Meg Howarth

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  97. Amrish Patel

    @thenpb Labour run southwick council ‘supporting Tories’ on riot evictions http://t.co/9IE3ngH #Labour=Tories"

  98. Wookie

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  99. Springburn Reject

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  100. John Meldrum

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  101. Garnet

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  102. Tony Dowling

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU

  103. senan

    The groteque chaos of a Labour council – a Labour council – serving eviction orders to the innocent families of rioters http://t.co/Fh9XeXU





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