Speechless. “Like” button needed.

Nothing from Ken, Lee Jasper or Polly Toynbee? No mention of Richard Murphy blaming it on the fall in the FTSE 100?

You missed out all the equal-but-opposite articles from the left. We both d it, left and right. It’s called Confirmation Bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

“Follow those who seek the truth; avoid those who claim to have found it.” – André Gide

Single mothers!

Who’s to blame for the riots? Play left-wing bingo!

Removal of EMA
Tripling of tuition fees
Bankers
Bullingdon Tories smashing windows
Neo-liberal capitalism
Vodafone not paying its taxes
Duck house owning Tories
Bankers (again)

Diane Abbot got it right, the abolition of EMA was most to blame.

What are the kids supposed to do when nanny stops their pocket money?

Littlejohn has had another go today, but can’t keep his foot out of his mouth:

http://zelo.tv/ox1lwa

But the rant from Mad Mel was the best/worst for screaming intolerance and total lack of facts. She says there is a “mountain of empirical research” to support her, but cannot cite one bit of it.

Damien Thompson blames multiculturalists and UKUncut
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/damianthompson/

Katharine Birbalsingh blames black boys, hoodies and people not buying her book
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/katharinebirbalsingh/

The Telegraph blogs are awash…

I’ve tried to sum it all up in a table: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApTo6f5Yj1iJdDJya2Z5bkNvVjgzbDB4UlItSFpQcXc&hl=en_GB so others might be able to create an instant visualisation.

Melanie Phillips also managed to blame feminists, Church leaders, the fact that not everyone in the country is Christian, and single mothers.

You missed Delingpole and his usual “left wing media” target, but no-one cares about Delingpole.

I can’t believe you missed ‘ultra feminists’ out of Mel P’s list!

I find it amusing when right wing fanatics blame it all on labour. The coalition has been in power for over a year now, and during labour’s 13 years in power there was nothing like there is now. The last time we had riots like this was back in 1995 when the tories were in power, then before that in the 1980s on a number of occasions again when the tories were in power.

Personally on that basis I have a far more logical conclusion that the tories are to blame for rioting and if we want to prevent future riots we need to get the tories out of power. However that is far too simplistic a view and the truth is with the way the current labour party leadership is heading there isnt much between the tories and labour.

I think the noticeable thing here is that most of the problems lefties have identified – whether relevant or not – could be ameliorated with, say, a bit of cash splashed there or a bit of regulation there. None of it would be easy or even likely to work, but that’s the logical conclusion of those positions.

The problems identified by this shower of fucknuts could require everything up to direct intervention in family life to dictate good parenting; reintroduction of the death penalty; legalisation of handguns; repeal of discrimination laws and possibly even the institution of some kind of Christian Sharia-lite system on an involuntary basis.

All of which is fine, of course – let them campaign for these things, if they really want to. It’s not like they’d be difficult positions to argue against. What strikes me as strange is that so few of them actually do argue for the logical solutions to the problems they consider to be so serious and central.

It’s almost as if they’re certain enough to publicly wail, gnash their teeth and rend their garments, but not quite certain enough to have the balls to say things like, to pick a random example, “Let’s allow policemen to use far more violent methods so that they can maintain good order via a significant increase public fear of physical assault”.

I wonder why. It couldn’t possibly be because they’re a bunch of gasbags and glorified performing seals.

Listen, I appreciate you’re doing rightwing columnists, which is fair enough – but I really liked the idea that the abolition of the EMA is to blame – when the schools are on holiday!

@Jonkarra

You could just as easily explain the 1981 and 2011 riots as the Tories inheriting a huge economic mess from the previous Labour government and in the process of clearing up the mess having to make unpopular cuts.

Do you really think the Coalition would be closing libraries and raising tuition fees threefold if the government had a £15 bn surplus rather than a £150 bn deficit ?

It has very conveniently been forgotten that there were no riots until the police shot Mark Duggan in what now seems to be somewhat controversial circumstances.

It is interesting to see how quickly the police have responded to the riots. By contrast, in 2003 Rebecca Wade/Brooks admitted that Illegal payments were made to the police by the News of the World.

Result: No arrests at all on that occasion!

Expenses cheat Shahid Malik was on Sky News last night pontificating about the riots and demanding tough sentences.

Now visualised: http://onlinejournalismblog.com/2011/08/12/visualisation-uk-riots-gauging-the-columnists-blame-game/

*applause*

I imagine that if we opened this up to commentators of the wider conservative movement in North America, there will be some more good ones.

Wot no one blaming “welfare”?

@ Flying Rodent

“The problems identified by this shower of fucknuts could require everything up to direct intervention in family life to dictate good parenting;”

Bad idea, no doubt, but I would say this over-bearing interference is found in abundance in the establishment left.

“.. reintroduction of the death penalty;”

that’ll get no more traction from this event, I’d wager.

” legalisation of handguns;”

I agree with this because it is a traditional liberty. I know that it’s a minority view, but even if the whole right to bear arms issue is beyond comprehension, the right to self-defence should not be in dispute, and where ordinary citizens stand up against rioting, it can be very effective. Of course, this does not legitimise lynch mobs, but I would rather have active and engaged citizens than an ‘efficient’ and ‘robust’ police force swamping us and acting like there’s a permanent state of emergency.

“… repeal of discrimination laws and possibly even the institution of some kind of Christian Sharia-lite system on an involuntary basis.”

You’re getting into the hyperbole now. Repealing regulation on businesses is one thing, introducing hand-chopping another.

Do you really think the Coalition would be closing libraries and raising tuition fees threefold if the government had a £15 bn surplus rather than a £150 bn deficit ?

Actually, yes, I do.

[The underclass'] frustrations and passions were kept at bay by force and draconian legal sanctions, foremost among them capital punishment and transportation to the colonies.

I totally love the staggeringly ahistorical ideas of those who most strenuously claim to believe in “traditional British values”. Sure, there were absolutely no instances of mass civil disorder back in the 19th Century, and the only reason we abandoned ideas like capital punishment, transportation, and mass incarceration in solitary confinement was the rise of the PC-gorn-mad liberal left, and absolutely not because they blatantly didn’t fucking work and were eventually found to be both hopelessly counter-productive and ruinously expensive.

George Santayana said something about people who fail to learn from history, but I forget what it was… I was too busy masturbating to “Land of Hope and Glory”.

@18

Don, there is a column in townhall.com by the increasingly scary looking Ann Coulter on this very subject. Sadly, she isn’t nearly as unhinged as Mad Mel.

Wing-nuttery galore.
However, there are some commentators whom one would normally designate as being on the right or right-of-centre who’ve actually gone up in my estimation.
Actually, I say some, but really mean Peter Oborne’s Telegraph piece: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

According to this BBC Newsnight report from three years back: Why London is different – 40% of Londoners were born abroad:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7368326.stm

Just possibly, that could have had something to do with the riots.

By the ONS report on the 2001 Census:

“Non-White ethnic groups are considerably more likely to live in England than in the other countries of the UK. In 2001 they made up 9 per cent of the total population in England compared with only 2 per cent in both Scotland and Wales, and less than 1 per cent in Northern Ireland.

“The non-White population of the UK is concentrated in the large urban centres. Nearly half (45 per cent) lived in the London region in 2001, where they comprised 29 per cent of all residents.”
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=457

Personally I blame the warm weather. How many riots do you see in the arctic eh? NONE thats how many! So there! Big freeze ray aimed at the nation please!

Definition of Liberal:

1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

Definition of this article as well as it’s contributors:

Anti-Liberal

Also, if you read the Mad Mel piece, she puts it down to a “three-decade liberal experiment which tore up virtually every basic social value” – which precisely dates the start of this terrible crime on the part of the “liberal intelligentsia” to 1981. Oh, and it can apparently be said – “with certainty” – that this was all “instituted or exacerbated by the Labour government under Tony Blair” – who apparently must have some kind of time machine.

That’s impressively crackers, even for Mad Mel.

Why can’t we respond like the Norwegian PM did by saying “More democracy”? Everyone applauded that but no-one seems to think of it here. Maybe no wonder when, oops, we can vote for less than half our government – not at all for the second chamber or our head of state – and, oops, the heart and pinnacle that our half-baked ‘democracy’ revolves around and down from is ‘the Crown’ ‘the Sovereign’. Have a look at the cabinet manual published recently which states in black and white the precedents and traditions that still cling like cobwebs to our fossilised decaying political system and power structures. Something is rotten in the state of Britain alright. Politician heal thyself, take a long careful look in the mirror x 12 magnification if possible. Hypocrisy in the place of democracy is unsustainable in the 21st century. Remove the (wrong kind of) power core from the system and the symbol of tyranny and opposite of democracy that the apogee of having a monarch as head of state is. Someone said “horizontal, holistic power” is the future. How about we try that?

Paul Bradshaw
I’ve tried to sum it all up in a table: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApTo6f5Yj1iJdDJya2Z5bkNvVjgzbDB4UlItSFpQcXc&hl=en_GB so others might be able to create an instant visualisation.

So Multiculturalism and Liberalism are tied at 5-5. This is a classic penalty decider situation. Which two right wing columnists will step up to take the decisive kicks now, and who will score and who will miss. Please don’t tell me that this is going to be one of those that goes up to 11-11 or something. Haven’t seen Simon Heffer yet – I’d have thought he was just what was needed for the tie break.

Hastings’ article was hilariously inept. He also managed to blame single mothers, families not eating together and swearing on the BBC (because as we all know kids don’t watch Sky or American movies or listen to rap CDs…)

On top of this he makes a statement which is simply wrong and horribly racist ‘Every firm in the land knows that an East European — for instance — will, first, bother to turn up; second, work harder; and third, be better-educated than his or her British counterpart.Who do we blame for this state of affairs?’ So the entire UK population are all ill-educated and clueless? Maybe Max should blame employers if they have backward attitudes towards their own youth? Imagine if he changed ‘British’ in the above paragraph to ‘Black’ or ‘Jewish’…

If the right-wing are moaning about a shallow, celebrity obsessed culture then they simply should take a big chunk of the blame. The DM’s website in particular has more pointless tat promoting people you’ve never heard of than almost anywhere else. Can anybody tell me who the eff is ‘Joey Essex’ for example?

The right also seem to forget that its wealthy businessmen making billions off the chav culture they supposedly despise (but promote ruthlessly).

It reminds me of Mel Phillips the other day trying to blame nasty Guardian-reading leftists for pulling her up on the fact that she writes like a far-right conspiracy wonk and is an inspiration for nutters all around the planet….

It is a shame the rioters didn’t wear t-shirts with the logo ‘Bullingdon Club – London Branch’… then maybe Boris & Dave would witter on less about the morals of the underclass and actually do something productive…

Whereas the leftie commentators can be pretty much summed up as “IT WAS THE TORIES WOT DUNNIT AND THE CUTS!!!”

Have just been reading an article on wikipedia about the Nika riots, circa AD 532.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

‘The Nika riots (Greek: ????? ??? ????), or Nika revolt, took place over the course of a week in Constantinople in AD 532. It was the most violent riot that Constantinople had ever seen to that point, with nearly half the city being burned or destroyed and tens of thousands of people killed.’

Those bloody liberals in the Roman & Byzantine Empire with their welfare benefits and Blackberries and Twitter….

Those bloody liberals in the Roman & Byzantine Empire with their welfare benefits and Blackberries and Twitter….

It was actually because Justinian had abolished EMA as any fule kno.

Flaming Fairy me old mate, its a bit of a weird coincidence isn’t it that huge riots tend to happy under right-wing Tory governments who express contempt towards anyone in the population who hasn’t been to private school.

Give you an example, in the Daily Mail when a poor yoof commits some criminal act the paper will explain it away as them being scum/degenerates/black/having a single mum and so on.

When a middle-class person commits a crime or heinous moral transgression they’ll ask ‘what made a nice girl with 15 A-Levels do such a thing’ and show sympathy.

Exhibit A:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025068/UK-riots-Middle-class-rioters-revealed-including-Laura-Johnson-Natasha-Reid-Stefan-Hoyle.html

Note how rioters is placed in quote marks in the headline to put across a disbelieving air – as with perennial DM favourites ‘global warming’ and the ‘poor’. And scroll down the page for the sub-heading…

‘A star pupil from £1m home. How did she end up in the dock?’

They actually do this every time. From drug-dealers to lap dancing call-girls to murderers the DM will always tell you that they went to a nice school and how much money their parent’s house is worth.

I thought Cameron had issued the definitive statement on the cause of the riots: it was all due to criminals who riot.

What’s wrong with that?

Personally I blame it all on cities of course have you ever noticed how these riots always happen in cities and the bigger the city the bigger the riot? Lets ban cities and force everyone to live in the country!

Invo the right-wingers also need to be blamed for much of the anti-science culture which permeates society of late. Climatology & BBC expert Mel Phillips often pours scorn on climate change. Other DM writers will promote quack cures, idiotic scares about technology and anything else they can think of to be contrarian (smoking and drinking are bad if you’re poor, but perfectly healthy if you’re middle-class – how dare the Nanny State tell you how to live!) Same goes for the Express, Sun, Star etc.

To be fair the Mail tends to have a few nice wildlife and space pictures but their overall science content is terrible. Any kids reading it would assume ‘so-called scientists’ are all con merchants who spend their time getting billion pound grants to invent equations about the most mathematically efficient way to pull women in nightclubs.

Furthermore despite disallowing most comments which would seem a bit leftish they tend to let through an awful lot of nutbaggery usually from our American cousins – witness the comments in any article about evolution, the environment, endangered species or vegetarians…

I’m surprised it took nearly a week for someone to blame ‘rap music’, like some square from the 1950s blaming rock ‘n’ roll beat combos.

Meanwhile… here’s Shaun Bailey, bearding the elite liberal lions in their den of iniquity. He blames:

- Big government

- The liberal intelligensia

- Students

- All of us (‘whether directly or indirectly’)

PS: You’ve gotta just love his final line: ‘Now we need to collectively grow up and take responsibility for responsibility.’ – truly worthy of The Thick of It.

‘Dismiss anyone who wonders aloud about the effect of this genre as, of course, “racist”, but also deploy those useful liberals again, to write articles and present programmes about how “edgy” it all is.’ – Graeme Archer

He has a point.

BobB asks:

I thought Cameron had issued the definitive statement on the cause of the riots: it was all due to criminals who riot.

What’s wrong with that?.

The answer:

‘I know what causes crime – criminals!’ – Michael Howard

Such insight, such forensic analysis – the Tories continue to be awash with original thinking.

Yeah, the right have had a heyday, but on the lunatic fringes of the left my comrades have been far more worrying. They seem to see this as the vanguard of a revolution which we should be supporting. I have tried to point out that the riots have frightened a lot more BME and immigrant communities than the BNP have ever managed to, and that maybe we should, er, be first offering a bit of solidarity in that direction.

Wonderful collection of loony right wing extremists. Especially liked the crazy suggestion that we should all have guns – so we can be nice and peaceful like the US.

@Henry

Ofc we all need guns because they are so effective at reducing crime in the US. Its not like large numbers of guns are turned on there owners when most people are unable to kill another human being when actually in that situation.

I mean the US surely has a far lower murder rate than the UK?

No EU ?

I read one commenter on the Telegraph site blaming teachers for frying kids brains by teaching them about climate change.

I am looking forward to Gerald Warner this Sunday to provide a splendid rant. A few weeks ago he was blaming all the European travails on the demise of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

No EU ?

Never mind that – no Elf ‘n Safety?

Except that Brendan O’Neill is left wing…?

as a dyed-in-the-wool bleeding heart liberal, my love for mel phillips knows no bounds, but shurely the breakdown of the family is indeed a factor in what’s happened, and, generally speaking, not a Good Thing.

I keep hearing on the radio its all due to too many single parent families.

Brendan O Niel and modern day organic types….

Yeah but they are bloody annoying! Don’t think they can be blamed for the riots though. Although it does piss me off when organic lentil eaters smash up McDonalds, urgh if u dont like it don’t go there!

Don’t forget former Sunday Telegraph, former Irish Times columnist and current Irish Independent columnist Kevin Myers who hysterically blames the “feral rioters” on:

- Single Mothers

- Blacks (qualifies this with some white youths joined in)

- Immigration

- Feminists

- Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-feral-rioters-all-have-one-thing-in-common-a-lack-of-father-figures-2844058.html

Didn’t Melanie Phillips also blame tolerance of drug use?

I had to laugh at that one…if only the looters were on drugs. They would still have been capable of looting, but would have wondered ‘Why bother?’
(thanks to Bill hicks.)

Obama. According to the usual right wing American rabble.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/93539/london-riot-fox-limbaugh-hannity

The ruling elite will never let the population have guns because they know very well they could likely get turned on them in the near future, especially given the future they have planned for us. It’s just another violent conservative fanstasy it’s never gonna happen.

24. Bob B

“The non-White population of the UK is concentrated in the large urban centres. Nearly half (45 per cent) lived in the London region in 2001, where they comprised 29 per cent of all residents.”
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=457

Shorter version it’s all the darkies fault.

The trouble with Mad Mel is that it’s all words and no action.

How about a demo on what to do about “liberalism”, a really dramtic gesture to show the way to go like a public book-burning of the works of John Stuart Mill?

I see the Right is using the same tactics as the Nazis. The only difference is they have swapped Jews for Liberals.

No doubt if these right wing tossers have their way we liberals will soon be on trains heading out to camps.

A new DNVP headed by Mel is a frightening thought, Sally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_National_People%27s_Party

“As you know it’s a tough life being a right-wing commentator when you have to deal with political correctness, complete political domination by liberal elites, and an oppressive media where literally nothing can be discussed unless first cleared by eco-feminazis and Diversity Officers.”

Sunny, this is awesome.

Someone’s probably beaten me to this, but a major news provider has felt the need to issue warnings about Melanie Phillips: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britain-reminded-that-melanie-phillips-is-not-well-201108114183/

Some really stirring, novel, intellectual ideas for the new anti-liberalism crusaders:

T-shirts with the slogan: Smoking is safer than liberalism
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/smoking_is_safer_than_liberalism_t_shirt-235862517559661296

Car stickers with: Liberalism is a mental disorder
http://www.cafepress.co.uk/+liberalism_is_a_mental_disorder_sticker,351540084

‘Liberalism is a disease’ fitted T-shirts
http://www.amazon.co.uk/CafePress-Liberalism-Disease-Fitted-T-Shirt/dp/B0048VLLYG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313173868&sr=8-1

That should fix it.

redpesto @39

I’m surprised it took nearly a week for someone to blame ‘rap music’, like some square from the 1950s blaming rock ‘n’ roll beat combos.

I wonder if Mark Duggan had a poster of Tupac on his wall as a teenager. Dreaming of the ”Thug Life” – not working like a mug in B&Q or a petrol station.

I don’t know if this is called rap these days. It’s my local ”crew” from Croydon, and I kind of like it.
But I can see how, if you take it too seriously, it can turn your head away from things like school, homework and saving up for things you want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjql5Qjd47I

If that lot in the OP are right wing, does that make this lot talking about ”Riots, Recession & Resistance” left wing?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Riots%2C+Recession+%26+Resistance&aq=f

@ 59

Lol. It’s those t-shirts’ close political analysis that I like the best.

@ 60

Again with the hip hop? OK, yes, some songs have less than positive messages, and rap is high up on that list. But what’s your solution?

I’m surprised ME sufferers haven’t yet been trumpeted as the cause of the looting and rioting. The weeks leading up to the actual riots had the BMJ, the BBC, the Times and various other media outlets claiming ME sufferers were giving out ‘death threats’ to doctors who believe their illness is imaginary. The ‘death threats’ apparently consisted of someone saying anyone who had prevented ME sufferers from getting the help/treatment they need ‘will pay’ for what they’ve done. David Cameron said the same thing to the looters/rioters only the day before yesterday.

The BBC and others were also claiming any official complaints made by ME sufferers constituted abuse and malicious harassment and intimidation. Obviously, though mostly housebound and acknowledged by the WHO as suffering from a neurological disease, ME sufferers are such bad-ass gangsters that they were able to inspire and therefore incite this weeks riots, with their Freedom of Informations requests and complaints to the General Medical Council. One doctor claimed he felt safer in Iraq and Afghanistan. This week he might well put out a statement saying he feels safer walking with Hoodies…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzeZhCt5PVA

@12. Jonkarra: “The last time we had riots like this was back in 1995 when the tories were in power, then before that in the 1980s on a number of occasions again when the tories were in power.”

Err, we haven’t seen riots like these before. Back in the 1980s, rioters threw rocks at the police because they hated the police. Earlier this week, rioters threw rocks at the police as a distraction technique whilst their mates robbed shops.

It would be foolish to propose that incidental looting is unique to these riots; historians inform us that looting occurred in commercial districts following World War II bombing raids. What is new is the concept of deliberate rioting for profit.

And as a model for criminal enterprise, it is flawed as so many of the perpetrators are discovering. The arrest and prosecution rate for looters is remarkable.

Fascinating how the right wingers feel the need to resort to violence against people they don’t agree with. “If the liberal won’t obey we should hang them or deport them.” seems to be their cry. How very tolerant of them.

Also note the victim hood of these clowns

“As you know it’s a tough life being a right-wing commentator when you have to deal with political correctness, complete political domination by liberal elites, and an oppressive media where literally nothing can be discussed unless first cleared by eco-feminazis and Diversity Officers.”

They seem very like the looters. Violent, and suffering from victim hood.

@62

”Again with the hip hop?”

That’s a great hip hop song on Youtube by my local lads don’t you think? They call themselves ”Shine My Nine” (as in 9 millimeter). Such charming kids. I think they’re like a more gritty JLS. The girl is cute too. Maybe they could get on Britain’s got Talent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjql5Qjd47I

I know that Liberal Conspiracy is too idealogicaly left wing to bother having much real debate with anyone who takes a different view. But Lee Jasper and Co are ”the left” and are seriously lacking IMO. Their analysis is terrible I think. ”No Justice – No Peace” and all that crap that started the Tottenham riots.
http://www.coalitionofresistance.org.uk/2011/08/video-public-meeting-riots-recession-and-resistance-august-11/

Joseph Harker was at it too in the Guardian today.

Over the last three decades we’ve allowed ourselves to be fooled that, with greater integration, plus a few black faces in sport and entertainment, things have improved. People gush about the growing mixed-race population, supposedly Britain’s “beautiful” future. Well, Mark Duggan had a white parent but it didn’t make much difference to his prospects.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/11/black-britons-80s-mps-media

Explaining why that article is so full of holes would take a lot of time and space. But he’s suggesting that Mark Duggan could not get a regular job. That he couldn’t become a plasterer for example. My dad was a plasterer 40 years ago and knew several West Indian plasterers back then. Maybe Mark Duggan prefered the gun life to being a plasterer. He had the choice.

Is that a right wing argument? Should I ask Sally?

@67. damon: “That’s a great hip hop song on Youtube by my local lads don’t you think?”

For the benefit of new readers or those who have not observed his comments, Damon has been talking about gang culture here for months. And talking about black on black crime.

—
I thought that US hip hop described dismal reality but it seems that some UK hip hop is creating that version of reality over here. The rhythm of hip hop is not new — it can be heard in loads of old jazz and blues recordings. The political message of intelligent hip hop is not new.

Before the Dunblane massacre, the only civilians owning hand guns were sporting target shooters and criminal nutters. Post Dunblane, the only civilians who own hand guns are nutters and there are more of them. And a few foolish street kids think that it is cool to associate with the nutter who owns a gun.

But there is great hip hop from around the world that denies gangsterism. Fusions of folk or traditional classical music; clever rhythms. There is a lot of UK anti-gangster hip hop too.

David Starkey just had a (Racist?) rant on Newsnight. Blaming the cause of the riots on black and ‘wigger’ rap youth culture. On fashion basically. I think he was basically saying it was just a black fashion thing, but that’s a complete red (not black ?) herring– He’s completely ignored the history of white sub-culture in Britain. I grew up in 70/80’s in a nearly completely white new town and believe me there was plenty of civil unrest and we certainly weren’t into ‘black man’s music’! & Guess he’s never read a Clockwork Orange?! It doesn’t matter what the prevailing youth style is.

Yes Charlieman. So was Harriet Harman tonight on Any Questions, and so was Lee Jasper when he was Ken Livingstone’s advisor on race and policing.
The way you mention that there, is like you’re suggesting there is something wrong with me talking about them when it’s the subject being discussed.
You seem to know what I’ve been saying, but I can’t remember what you’ve been saying exactly. So maybe you could give us a reminder of your opinions on (for example) the street politics of Lee Jasper – which have the slogan ”No Justice – No Peace”.
http://leejasper.blogspot.com/

And which always imply that black people who die in police custody have been killed because the police are so racist.
I have made it clear that I think this politics is actually quite appalling, but it needs a reasonable forum in which to debate it, as it’s very complex.

I’ve been looking for a place on the internet where people are open minded enough to listen to what Camila Batmanghelidjh says on the one hand … and what John McWhorter says on the other, but I can’t find it anywhere.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_3_how_hip_hop.html

Where people could take in such a wide ranging views and see the positive in them. But it seems the polarisation is too great. Maybe LC isn’t that place for such a debate as it has other goals. Which is totally fair enough in one way. But it means that the roots of the riots can’t really be examined properly …. nor deciding how much blame Lee Jasper’s and OBV’s politics have for starting the riots.
What do you say Charlieman?

Reasons for riots 1,2,3.

1. Righteous anger at police brutality ignites initial furor.
2. Media and ineffective prison /benefit and justice and family systems have contributed to the development of countless numbers of violent self-involved people who decide to take advantage of the initial JUSTIFIED riots over police brutality to line their own pockets and unleash their violent tendencies on random members of the public – just because their more likely to get away with it en-masse. Refer to the term ‘steaming’ where groups steal en-mass to avoid apprehension, this is NOT a new concept. Prison is not a threat if you have no plans to seek employment at any point in your life and prison means free room and board with no work to do. Hence prison and benefit systems being contributing factors. As for media. refer to Platos theories of mimesis and studies that support the theory that people are DESIGNED to subconsciously copy the behaviours we are exposed to – most examples are viewed via media of one kind or another. Most of those examples are of extreme negative behaviours. Media glory/exposure also acts as an incentive and incendiary device in this instance as media exposure is valued and notoriety can be achieved in social groups foor being part of an event being broadcast world-wide – even a riot!
3. Challenges from antagonists. Media starts printing pictures of people wearing t-shirts calling rioters scum etc – may as well show a red rag to a bull!

@ damon

“That’s a great hip hop song on Youtube by my local lads don’t you think? They call themselves ”Shine My Nine” (as in 9 millimeter). Such charming kids. I think they’re like a more gritty JLS. The girl is cute too. Maybe they could get on Britain’s got Talent.

I know that Liberal Conspiracy is too idealogicaly left wing to bother having much real debate with anyone who takes a different view…” etc etc blah blah

Ha ha, yeah! Except, y’know, I just accepted your basic premise and asked you an honest question. Don’t whinge about people avoiding honest debate when you’re avoiding honest debate. It’s kinda tacky.

Hahaha–I love you guys! Those crazy right wingers, eh, where do they get their outlandish ideas from?

@70. damon: “What do you say Charlieman?”

I reckon that you are completely misunderstanding my words. Read them in the spirit that they were delivered, please.

“You seem to know what I’ve been saying, but I can’t remember what you’ve been saying exactly.”

Just stay away from mind readers.

My introductory paragraph describing your past contributions to LC was intended as a compliment.

In another thread, we have agreed that Camila Batmanghelidjh’s social contribution is exceptional.

I have zero interest in London municipal politics; please do not associate my opinions with that shitball of ignorance.

Anyone would think that a bunch of teenagers hadn’t just spent four days looting and burning London while we kicked the floor and picked our finger nails. What’s that you say–the treatment isn’t working? Well then, the answer is clear: simply increase the dose!

Well Chaise Guevara, a start would be a long hard look at the politics of Operation Black Vote. I agree that Mad Mel and much of the right wing are loons. That’s the easy bit.
The hard bit would be looking at the ”Who killed Smiley Culture” campaign and marches.
And the way that the politics of OBV and Lee Jasper are always making the police out to be racists. Even though it’s their job to deal with armed criminals.

They don’t accept criticism I think. Especially from a white bloke like me.
But it’s the march in Tottenham and the politics behind it which kicked off the riots.
If Mark Duggan is found to have not had a gun then they are completely justified in being angry. But it looks like he had one, and if you carry a gun, you may get shot. Tough shit really. It’s the reason police all over the world carry guns. Best not carry a gun if you don’t want to get shot.
You tell me, do you think LC is the place for that discussion to be had really? I had hoped it was.

And btw, David Starkey really put his foot in it big time on Newsnight.
His big error was to call it ”black culture”. They’re talking about it on radio 5 right now.
I know what he meant but he said it all wrong. He meant that anyone can now speak the urban street dialect that is a fusion of influences. He is an idiot though for putting it across like he did.

@ 76 Damon

Seriously? I ask you a simple question, and you give me several paragraphs of what I can only assume to be irrelevant nonsense, and don’t even answer the fecking question? Christ. Well, I’ll do my best to investigate the “Who killed Smiley Culture” chaps, whoever they may be, but first an answer would be nice, if only to prove we’re on the same planet and not in some weird place where we all have to talk about some friend of yours called Lee Jasper.

@ damon I agree with a lot of what you say.

One of the problems some on the left are having at the moment is that when they keep saying we need to look for reasons as to why this all happened, what theynreally mean is that they only seem to want to listen to reasons which they agree with. So if someone suggests that, say, gang culture, or bad parenting, or welfare dependency need to be looked at as causes, they often seem to be dismissed out of hand in favour of explanations highlighting poverty, racism, alleged police brutality,netc This looks bad, and gives the lie to any claim that reasons are sought. My own view is that causes are probably complex here, and that the ‘answer’ probably includes points from both sides.

I do wonder if we on the left are so keen on looking for reasons when, say, the EDL are terrorising communities. We seem to be Ok with condemnation then. Double standards? EDL seem to be predominantly w/c, dissaffected, etc., and they also intimidate poor, ethnically diverse communities….

The authorities clearly love the EDL! Did you see how relieved they were that they were out protesting? “We know where we are with this one, chaps.” The government were practically squeeking with joy after a weekend of humiliation and shame (best not to think about that if poss. though, eh). They never seem to have any trouble keeping the EDL under control either, which is weird. Suddenly the previously impossible becomes the utterly trivial. How can this be? Another mystery, to add to the ever increasing pile.

Brendan @ 80,

I imagine you’d see me as ‘left wing’. I am, after all, a member of the SNP and we are almost definitely a left wing party, at least when compared to the Labour Party.

When you say:

One of the problems some on the left are having at the moment is that when they keep saying we need to look for reasons as to why this all happened, what theynreally mean is that they only seem to want to listen to reasons which they agree with.

Well, I am struggling to understand what went on, except perhaps in journalistic terms.

It seems to me that there was no obvious relationship between the violence in, say, London and elsewhere. It could be argued that, absent Birmingham, the violence was no worse than typical. Indeed, sad as it is, the events in Birmingham are not exactly without precedent.

I’d imagine I’m about to come in for a lot of flak, but the ‘story’ we are being fed is probably not as apopalytic as the likes of the Mad Mel or the mad damon would have us believe. Neither is it as newsworthy as newshounds would have us believe.

Because they have to sell news, we are being asked to buy into a complete breakdown in society at large, just because. Just because what, exactly? Because it works as a narrative. Because they can make a story out of it?

Well, I think that that is so. I don’t think there is a realistic tale to be told. I think that a few random acts of stupidity have been gathered together and fed back to us as an end of civilisation as we know it.

There is money to be made from this nonsense. Mel Philips is paid for her shit. I am not.

You should always, always, do the ‘cui bono’ on whatever journalists say to you. For they make their money through stirring up controversy and lies.

Just saying.

It has been the case for ages that nutters are on our streets. Or, more accurately, in out fourth estate….

Apologies for the spelling errors. It has been an odd feature of this site, since time immemorial, that once you post, whatever errors you make are there for evermore.

;-(

Gonna give us a frigging edit facility?

Chaise Guevara, I don’rt know what debate I’m avoiding. I made the point that the dominant street politics in the black community is full of grievance against the police.
And that no one on the ”white left” is brave enough to pull them up on it.

So when people like Mark Duggan come to a sticky end or die in police custody, the inference in the black street politics is always that the police killed them because they are so racist …. and no one questions this.

If you don’t know about this, you just have to look up things like this.
http://leejasper.blogspot.com/2011/04/smiley-culture-and-march-for-justice.html

He even has Jody McIntyre listed there as past of the campaign.
Is that not enough to raise the alarm bells?
This politics has been going on since the 70s. It’s all because of police racism they say.
It’s basicly the Jessie Jackson style of politics. My point is that I think it sucks.
And it’s the cause of what happened in Tottenham. The demonstration about Mark Duggan led to the riots.

@ 84 Damon

First off, you’re oversimplifying this by setting it in racial terms. There are plenty of non-black people who hate the police on “principle”, whether that’s born out of genuine negative experiences or just bravado and peer pressure. Hell, I grew up in a quaint, near-100% white, middle-class village in the home counties, and half my friends used to whinge about “the pigs” when I was a teenager. It’s kinda embarrassing to recall.

Secondly, what you’re avoiding (possibly as an oversight, in all fairness) is answering my question: what’s your solution to the negative messages put out by some rap artists? I’m not debating the existence of this culture, as I already said, which is why it’s rather annoying to have you cite me loads of anecdotes to demonstrate that it exists. Would you, for example, be in favour of banning rap songs that promote violence / discourage kids to engage with their schoolwork / present authority figures in a negative way?

As for the “white left” (and does that mean lefties who are white, or is it a more specific category?) not calling them on it, I’m sure there are plenty of white left-wingers who dislike rap lyrics of the “guns, bitches and bling” school. I’m one of them, in fact. And I don’t see what the hell their race has to do with it.

@65 – Superb post. Your injection into the thread of your views on something as spectacularly irrelevant to the topic of conversation as CFS is, frankly, awe inspiring. That what most of what you write is factually incorrect makes it all the more worthy of recognition. Is there a Wingnut of the Week award? Mentalist of the Month? (Can anyone help me with some kind of alliterative insult referring to an annual/yearly award?).

So apparently liberals like myself control the media and the country and are responsible for the riots. I had no idea we had so much power.

George Potter: Do you mean to tell me that Britain is not a liberal country?

Chaise Guevara. No I don’t support any bans on any types of music. Or even putting ”Parental Advisory” stickers on the CDs. I’d hope that they had some adults to talk to them about it though and tell them not to take it too seriously and make it their whole life. Schools would be the ideal place. But you need the right kind of teachers for that.
I think schools should fight against the street culture though. Insist that it stays outside the school gates.

One thing about Lee Jasper’s idea that there should black only boys schools – that could even be worth considering, is I bet he invisaged a school with all black teachers who just didn’t take any crap and ran the place quite strictly. I don’t know why regular schools can’t be run more strictly. Many need to be as it’s the only chance the state has got to make a positive influence in student’s disfunctional lives.

As for lots of people having it in for the police .. the politics that sparked the trouble in Tottenham was the ”No Justice – No Peace” kind. Which is a threat of violence.
Which as we saw, can get completely out of control and cause widescale violence.
Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton have been doing that for decades in the US – and in my opinion it’s terribly negative.

The case of Mark Duggan reminds me of that of Sean Bell in New York a few years ago. He died in a hail of bullets after being challenged by the police who thought he had a gun.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=sean+bell+shooting&aq=f&aqi=g3g-v7&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9bcbc1af67a1ebc4&biw=683&bih=279

There were angry protests in the black community there too. When it was really his own actions that got him killed. He had driven his car at a policeman and hit him.
But I thought this John McWhorter article actuallly looked at the whole case from a more useful light that Al Sharpton and all the protesters who were calling it a racist killing.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=2872

Sure, the cops get it wrong sometimes. But the prisons are full of people they managed to capture without killing. And in the USA and their violent prisons, that’s something they should be commended for. Duggan should have just carried a knife if he felt he needed to protect himself.

I just hope I’m still alive if we have genuine contact with alien life, the right wing would no doubt find a million reasons to hate them. “They fly light years to get here, because they know we’re a soft touch, dishing out money and houses, giving them jobs and turning a blind eye to dubious ‘traditions’. E.T. GO HOME!!!!!!” I offer the thought that, maybe the women on the right need some HRT or TLC, the vicious, bitter harpies. As for the men, a boating trip off the coast of Somalia might be both informative and enjoyable, for everyone else that is.

Well, we’d have to assume that the police aren’t going to start beating up peaceful protesters, so it might not always work. But, y’know, it has been shown to work in one area.