I’ve lived in Tottenham and I found it the most interesting place to live in (in London). Having surveyed the destruction today (http://andreasmoser.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/tottenham-riots-august-2011/), I think the area won’t be suffering too long. It’s “only” individual businesses and families that have been hit. In a few days, the road will be open again and normal life will continue.

“However, as one student in a PSHE lesson pointed out to others, he had never had any interaction with the police, despite the fact that he is young, male and black, because he’s inside his house after nine at night, he’s not in the streets and he’s not wearing clothes that make him look like he’s about to commit a crime.”

Some common sense begins to emerge.

its not about grabbing a few shoes or computers, its about the whole crappy situation we find ourselves in . The oppressive wealth of the few, whilst the rest have to work 24/7 to scrape a livelihood. Its about the dependency the state has created by engineering such a high cost of basic living, housing, land and transport, that people need hand outs to survive. its about the ever intrusivness of the government that controls every waking moment. from the crappy schooling thats designed to break your soul and churn out mcdonald eating . This is the human spirit saying enough.
and i hope the residencents create those protection rings for their homes and property, and the corporations can take a jump with the government

@ Bansi Kara

Very well said.

I don’t trust the police either, from my experience or that of my friends. Their calling for anarchists was, as I said in that thread, the last straw for me talking to the London police.

Thanks for painting me as a bad person.
And ignoring the very real anger behind this.

@2 – Yes, because a self-imposed curfew is the best way to ensure that you don’t encounter police. Never mind evening activities, or simply taking a walk in the evening, you can’t do that. Now, think about what you said.

The way some people talk, you’d think the only problem was the police. I know family of this guy who was murdered:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13923641

I don’t remember there being riots about that. He’s just another statistic. The biggest threat of violence to young men in London ain’t the police but other young men. The troublesome ones aren’t afraid of the police or going to jail – that’s just an opportunity to catch up with some friends they haven’t seen for a while.

Yes, very good post by Bansi Kara.
Often on these libeal and left forums you just fear the same old BS. Like someone who left this message on the New Statesman site on this trouble:

Another Tory government, another inner-city London riot. Plus ca change…

And I think the people who protested outside the police station also need to take a look at themselves. We hear that ”No justice – No peace” rubbish all the time.
The problem is their attitude. I just heard Diane Abbott say unemployment was a big factor, as did a Broadwater Farm resident called Sonya on the BBC news. Who said there’s guys in their late twentys and thirtys who’ve never had a job. Why not?

When they’re just a short tube ride away from the whole of the West End of London.
And the City of London too. All those thousands of jobs in hotels done by foriegners are just not good enough for the kind of people who were rioting last night I guess.

They said on the Channel 4 news that some trouble has started in nearby Edmonton tonight, and I’d say there’s half a dozen other places in London that could also have some opportunistic disorder this evening. I’d say the Croydon boys must be considering it.
Practically all the London post code gangs would be very tempted by the idea – especially if they could rob a new lap top or something.

Dotun Adebayo is talking about this now until 10pm on BBC radio London . He”s from Tottenham and his phone-in show on sunday is particularly for the black community. It’s online now and will be on the i-player.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england/london/

Does Tottenham qualify as a “Big Society”?

I wonder how many of those rendered homeless by the arsonists had their belongings insured? And what of those who have lost their jobs and livelihood?

I had more sympathy for the Millbank protesters. Even the smashed Topshop windows and stuff. It seemed that the anger wasn’t mindless at least. No one was made homeless. There wasn’t looting. Even attacking the Royal’s car and the photo of swinging from the Cenotaph.
There is a collective hatred of the police which ignores the fact that much effort has gone into improving relations with the so called ‘community’ over these past 20 odd years. The police have collectively been guilty as well, on many levels. Corruption, fabricating evidence, stop and search to excess, etc… but the current economic situation is not their fault. Cutbacks to police funding are not their fault. And the fact that Mark Duggan was armed and got shot as a result, is not the fault of the police. They were doing their job. If people carry guns and knives they have to be prepared for the fact that they might get killed. You can’t have it both ways.

“When they’re just a short tube ride”

Even off-peak, that’s £2.60 there and back, IF you get off outside the centre and walk the rest of the way, ~4% of the weekly JSA, every time. And a FAR higher percentage of available income after the rapidly-rising energy bills are paid. You can’t afford to keep chasing dreams by going into these places looking for work which won’t be offered to you. That’s their FOOD budget.

It’s one thing for the rich to dismiss the cost of the tube, but the poor can’t afford to.

” he had never had any interaction with the police, despite the fact that he is young, male and black, because he’s inside his house after nine at night, he’s not in the streets and he’s not wearing clothes that make him look like he’s about to commit a crime.”
As @5 said, this is no solution to the problem. Why shouldn’t teenagers be out after nine? Or is it only black male teenagers who have to scurry indoors as night falls, in case someone thinks they “look like (they’re) about to commit a crime”. That doesn’t just mean wearing a hoodie, does it? It means being young, black, male and wearing a hoodie. If I went out at midnight wearing the full balaclava and kaboodle, no-one, least of all the stop-and-search police, would think I was dangerous or should be arrested just in case I was going to do something illegal; they’d just think I was eccentric.
Any society that creates a situation wherein certain sections of the population choose to stay indoors rather than risk getting arrested because of who they are and what they are wearing is heading for disaster.

“When people group together, only looking inwards, and fail to engage with the wider world, the only endpoint is this sort of violence, fuelled by rumours, fuelled by misinformation. Until real leaders emerge from within those groups and steer the young towards forgiveness and education, towards engagement and understanding, the young will only take their world views from the small minded.”

= it’s the fault of the community for not being nice enough.

There is a real reason why so many people all over the country (not just in Tottenham, or now, Enfield, Brixton etc.) are so very angry at the police, the media and the government at the moment. It is not because they are small-minded. It is not because they are looking inward. It is not because they haven’t got the right leaders to show them the way.

One thing i do know is you can not trust the IPCC to do a dam thing and they are not indpendant and throw 89% of complainst in the bin and it’s propaganda just to make people think that they can hold the police to account, waste of time, waste of money.

Lets see proof that will stand up in court that this guy shot his gun at police and the sooner the better before the police fabricate a story like they did with the death of the news of the world reporter we all forgot about because the press tells us what to think about.

@11. Decent young kids black or White in these areas are not so much scared of being arrested as they are of being shot stabbed and mugged by other kids thier own age. Why do you think there is a need for operation trident? Black on black gun crime who terrorise the community that’s why !!

All this is no surprise because the young have no respect anymore do they. Look at what our children are subjected to :

Years of Glorifying and exposing us to War’s in Iraq and Afghanistan and now Libya. Exposure on television to years of death and destruction through these deceifully claimed War’s of necessity.

Then we see the Worlds greedy Banks and Financial Institutions bring the world to its knee’s. When we the Tax Payer bails them out they still get enormous bonuses as a reward even though they had failed, talk about rubbing salt into a wound.

The exposure of MP”s screwing the system through expenses claims even though many of them were wealthy and did not need to do so but greed was the motive.

Endless electoral campaign deceit, lies, spin and psychological mind games especially from David Cameron that claimed live on the finanal television debate that he would protect the Sick, Disabled, Vulnerable and poorest in society because a country is judged upon how it cares for its most vulnerable in society. Also that they had no intention of raising VAT if elected but done so within a week of going into Downing Street. Just a Pack of Outright BareFaced Lies to the British people.

These Politicians have treated the British people like morons and continue to lie and change course to hide their lies but everyone can see what they are doing and are now becoming really sick and tired.

Then we have the News of the World saga (Phone Hacking) with David Cameron’s close friends and associates involved with Cameron protecting Andy Culson. Then this saga exposed Police Corruption and a string of resignations.

Politicians endlessly lie, deceive, fiddle and some have recently been sent to prison. The Police are corrupt and in peoples pockets. We are told lies to justify wars in far away lands then get involved in other peoples civil wars. Anyone can Hack into our personal information.

It is no wonder people are losing their moral compass and have become completely disallusioned. All those that should be setting an example to the rest of us have proved that authority is deceitful and corrupt to the bone and they have subjected the nation to the reality that no person can be trusted and that includes those in Authority. We are also the victims of their actions and where is our justice. We have none and people are now angry.

This entire problem is not solely about one man being shot. The problem is far deeper !

“Often on these libeal and left forums you just fear the same old BS.”

Well don’t bother then, if you don’t like it. You won’t be missed.

@14 Skooter,

Very good point.

According to this report, the police were not properly geared up for repression:

Tottenham riots: the warnings to police that went unheeded
Metropolitan police face claims they were underprepared for disturbances despite warnings there could be trouble
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-warnings-police

How about snipers on roof tops next time as in those Islamic countries?

@Mr Grunt, your comment is a truly beautiful piece of transferrable Daily Mail. I’m tempted to post it under every single piece on LC, but that would be plagiarism.

Also love how you put Phone Hacking in brackets, just in case we weren’t sure.

So calling *all* police corrupt – isn’t that really a perpetuation of the situation the very sensible Bansi Kara stands against?

The police do a very difficult job. The guy supposedly had a gun and was shot dead. Gun crime doesn’t only affect people in gangs but innocent people are killed because of illegal guns out on the street. Last year there was a story about an innocent girl from Hackney who was shot and killed in a chicken shop because of gang violence. Or what about the case of the five year old Sri Lankan girl who was left paralysed because of people who had guns and used them without a seconds thought?

The mans family obviously do deserve answers to what actually happened but the riots themselves were no comment on police injustice.

@18 – There can be a problem with all police without corruption. Problems in training, in institutionalised attitude, in doctrine. Certainly the smugness of officers in the news last night cannot have helped.

Why don’t we see riots when people are killed by gangsters, rather than the police?

Very thoughtful and interesting piece.

Check this out:- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44

7.35pm: Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer’s radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.

8.06pm: Pastor Nims Obunge, who is supporting Mark Duggan’s family, has been giving a reaction to the news reported here earlier that initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer’s radio was a police issue bullet.

He told Vikram Dodd of the Guardian: “If it was a police issue bullet in the radio, that would instigate a lot more concerns.”

Obunge said that he and Duggan’s family had seen the IPCC this afternoon, and had asked about the community rumours that the bullet recovered from an officer was a police issue one, but were not told that it was.

“But were not told that it was.” – Does that mean the question was dodged or was not answered or that it was denied?

Good article though I think ” ” is not right.

So the kids of rioters from 25 years ago are blissfully unaware of the improvements at Broadwater Farm and Tottenham itself. Leaving aside those genuinely upset about the shooting of Mark Duggan I’m becoming a bit tired of the folk who focus on the ‘can’t dos’ instead of what is possible and rather than getting jobs or starting their own businesses to earn money to improve their lot they.

I saw the family of Mark Duggan on the telly and they are incredible considering what has just happened to them whereas the people burning buildings and stealing are just a bunch of chancers who no doubt will be complaining about being bored and lack of XBoxes due to government cuts.

I know the area, do work there and although it has a fair way to go to br ‘up and coming’ is vastly better than it was 25 years ago. Then there was hArdly anything worth stealing.

Should West Ham be forced to pull out of the deal for the post-Olympics stadium, and Spurs take their place – that really would merit riots along High Road N 17.

The most important analysis about all this is happening on BBC radio London right now. There is an appalling woman called Matilda MacAttram on who is basicly an apologist for the violence. It’s all the police’s fault according to her. The police are killing black men and treating the community unjustly etc she says.
http://www.obv.org.uk/our-communities/profiles/obv-profile-matilda-macattram

There’s another guy on the show, a young black guy who is so passionate he is a total hothead. He says that without what happened last night no one would pay attention. Actually it’s a bit of a race issue. A white guy has just got shouted down for saying ”if you don’t want to get shot, don’t point guns at the police”. They wouldn’t have that.

I think if you listen closely, you will scratch the surface of the reality between our multi-cultural society. The woman in the studio (Matilda MacAttram) is saying that things have been getting heated for quite some time. All over London, (and places like Birmingham too) – and she says it is a black thing. Black youth are angry etc.
So much for ”the community”.
There are several communities and I think and some of them don’t have much to do with each other.

Some ‘disturbances’ in Enfield this evening: shops being smashed, police cars attacked.

try:
http://twitter.com/#!/PaulLewis

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live

@26 good tip

Mark Duggan shot wrongly? Are you serious? If you shoot a police officer you have only yourself to blame.

If you are a young, black male innocent of any crime yet get stop checked regularly by police then blame the dickheads who commit the crime and put your age and ethnic bracket in a bad light, not the officers carrying out the checks.

Lefty liberals are the root of all trouble in this shit country, not police.

@31

If you shoot a police officer you have only yourself to blame.

Especially when you shoot the coppers with their own bullets. They don’t like that.

@31 – Feel free to leave. You can work anywhere in the EU you so despise.

We only have the word of those brave, heroic figures in Met Police goon gear that Mark Duggan fired a shot at one of them (if he was even carrying a gun?) which miraculously got embedded in one of their radio’s- Praise the Lord!

Given their past record with regards to similar events, would it surprise let alone shock anybody if it was revealed (yeah, right) that they concocted this whole charade to justify murdering another man in cold blood……because this kind of thing just doesn’t happen with “the worlds finest police force” does it?

For comparison, try this: another mindless gang murder but in a south-east London park?

Nicholas Pearton park stabbing: Gang detained for death
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14400876

And this in Brixton: A five-year-old girl was shot in the chest when she was caught up in a shooting in south London
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12914557

On the other, this was the work of criminals, thieves and opportunists who took the issue and made it a lucrative venture to be at the scene of the riots. That the people who smashed windows and stole sports gear, computers, food and alcohol and burned their local supermarket aren’t doing this because they’re angry, they’re doing it because they want more stuff without having to earn it.

Yes, they’ve learned half a lesson from the people who live in Kensington and Chelsea. They just forgot that it’s only socially acceptable to get money without earning it if you’re already stinking rich. The fools.

@35 – Oh, thats o.k then. Special Branch or whatever the tooled up plod call themselves these days can go round threatening, bullying, intimidating and blowing people away…..funny how state-sponsored violence is always justified.

+ Don’t bother leaving links to the British Brainwashing Corporation…..most people i know (including myself) stopped paying attention to the utterances of those pro-establishment ar*licks a long, long time ago.

@37: “+ Don’t bother leaving links to the British Brainwashing Corporation…..most people i know (including myself) stopped paying attention to the utterances of those pro-establishment ar*licks a long, long time ago.”

Gang members jailed for life over teenage girl’s murder – Two east London men found guilty of killing innocent schoolgirl at Hoxton takeaway in botched revenge attack
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/12/gang-members-teenage-girls-murder

Darko-Frempong was gunned down as he left a community centre on an estate in Tulse Hill, south London. The gunmen fired from a silver car near a children’s playground before speeding off.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/865615-teen-shot-dead-on-tulse-hill-estate-named-as-nana-darko-frempong

Daniel Omari Smith, 22, was gunned down while returning to his car after buying food at a KFC in Harrow Road, near Paddington, shortly after midnight.
http://www.harrowobserver.co.uk/west-london-news/local-harrow-news/2010/05/27/kfc-visit-ends-in-gun-killing-116451-26529271/

Five men were killed and three others were injured in a separate shooting in a wave of violence across London at the weekend.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23823691-five-killings-and-three-shot-at-party-in-weekend-of-london-violence.do

And so it goes on . .

@31
If you shoot a police officer you have only yourself to blame.
Especially when you shoot the coppers with their own bullets. They don’t like that.

You gullible mug! Forensics labs don’t issue preliminary reports like that so that’s clearly made up by one of the juvenile, scared, authority hating fools who are so brave hiding behind their IP addresses! Just like you!

Bob: actually, Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies have all happily put their names to the claim in question. Meanwhile, *you’re* the anonymous troll making shit up on the Internet…

@john b #40:

Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies have all happily put their names to the claim in question.

“The Guardian understands” doesn’t constitute putting their names to the claim. They haven’t seen the claimed report, they don’t even claim to have done. They are reporting rumour. Which is, of course, what Bob said in the first place.

If or when it turns out that the claim is in fact total hogwash, what is th Grauniad going to do about it? You seem to accept that the fact that it has reported the claim gives it legitimacy. What consequences does that have?

Meanwhile, *you’re* the anonymous troll making shit up on the Internet…

Irony thy name is “john b”.

What a bizarrely conservative piece for LibCon.

The suggestion that these riots are related to the “collective memory” of the community is dismissed as being right only insofar that:
“Generations of people who haven’t been able, for whatever reason, to see the real change this area has undergone, have passed their bitterness and their lack of education and their lack of willingness to engage with the systems we all live under, and have created a generation of young people who do not trust the police.”
Now one might think that there were some important links between two massive riots occurring in a single community within recent history. But no, apparently the only link is that some people have, for unelaborated upon reasons, insisted in presenting a negative picture to their offspring that bears no relations to reality at all.

Also it’s shocking insuling to write:
“I feel terribly sorry for the family of Mark Duggan…
I sincerely hope the IPCC investigation uncovers details that people need to move on and find resolution. I say this with the absolute conviction that this won’t happen. No amount of investigation will change what is an entrenched and diseased position on the relationship between the police and certain groups within the Tottenham area.”

The implication here is that the reason why the people won’t be able to move on is because of the “entrenched and diseased… relationship between the police and certain groups.” (And of course, nothing to do with the fact that IPCC investigations invariably refuse to criticise the police in any way- [big issue seller][wheelchair user])

“Others said… that the “community” were angry about the death of Mark Duggan. Were they talking about the 83 year old lady who lives downstairs, or my residents’ association leader, who invited us all into his flat at midnight last night because we were…scared about what was happening at the end of our road? Were they talking about the owners of the buildings that were burnt? Or maybe those whose houses were set alight and now are homeless?”

No, because they probably weren’t selectively asking people who would be inclined to hold only one view. It seems pretty implausible that a protest about a police shooting and a riot immediately afterwards are unconnected.

“Mention ‘institutionalised racism’ and they look at you blankly.”
Mention the doppler effect and they probably look at you blankly, but they’ve still experienced it. Had you asked “who’s ever been stopped by the police when they weren’t doing anything suspicious other than being black and wearing a hoodie” you might have gotten more of a response. Ask them again when they’re 15 rather than 12 and you quite certainly will.

“The police have come into school, they are part of our PSHE programme, they have been approachable and informative, focusing on how young people can keep themselves safe and out of trouble.”
You’re presenting a uniformly one-sided picture of police interactions. The police certainly are polite when presenting classes in schools, but that changes instantly when meeting those same children on the street.

Also this is a ridiculous, faux-compromise. You can’t balance the admission that the police are “especially” likely to target your “young, male and black” students, leading to “negative interactions,” by saying “one student… had never had any interaction with the police, despite the fact that he is young, male and black, because he’s inside his house after nine at night, he’s not in the streets and he’s not wearing clothes that make him look like he’s about to commit a crime.”

So, in short, if you don’t want to have negative interactions with the police, ideally don’t be young, male and black, and if you are, don’t be “in the streets [sic]“, don’t be outside your house after nine and don’t wear the typical clothes of teenagers and especially black teenagers, lest you “look like [you're] about to commit a crime.”

“We cannot hope that the shock at seeing people’s homes torched, beautiful buildings with architectural merit being destroyed and buses being set alight, will actually make those at the riot stop and think.”
So there’s no thinking involved in the rioting. It’s utterly inexplicable. No connection to recent events at all. It’s only due to:
“people group[ing[ together, only looking inwards, and fail to engage with the wider world… fuelled by rumours, fuelled by misinformation.”

So despite writing as though you’re an advocate of complexity and balance, refusing to ascribe any opinions to “the community” as a whole. You’re still happy to insist that the riots are exclusively the result of people who are completely wrong, unthinking and whose views and actions aren’t connected to recent events in the real world in any way.

@40

Wow, you’ve really got me there! Seriously? A load of no-names tell you it’s true and you just take it as gospel?

Point out what I’ve made up then in your incredibly predictable response?

Some of these ”community activists” have got a real attitude problem. Just heard one black woman lawyer on the radio saying how she was going to on the street in Tottenham tonight, offering her firm’s services to anyone who wants to make charges against the police. ”The communitty” this and the community that. Who is in this community? All the people who will have gone to Severn Sisters tube station this morning to go to work? Or those left behind in their beds till past noon every day in Tottenham? There’s obviously different communities living side by side, but living in parallel worlds.

Here is a young lad called AJ Nakasila, who came to London with his mother from Congo when he was very young, and grew up on an estate in Hackney.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/i4i+aj+nakasila+biography/1394447.html

He seems very typical of the young black people in Tottenham who this is all about. He is on youtube too, in some short films he did for Channel 4. People like him don’t seem to be attracted to the kinds of jobs available to young people who leave school with few qualifications. The kinds of jobs in the West End and the City that have traditionally been done by working class men from places like Tottenham and the East End. Starting out in the postroom of some big firm or office building in The City for example.

As for what happens to these young lads when they get arrested and convicted.
This is what awaits them, so no wonder none of them fear it.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=feltham+sings&aq=f

Feltham young offenders institute. This documentary called ”Feltham Sings” is well worth watching as it shows up the arrogance and the nihilism of these young offenders. In part 4, one young prisoner says he would like to get a job sometime, but he won’t consider jobs paying less than £60,000 a year. Why would he? He can make a few thousand by stealing a luxury car and passing it on to ”stolen car for export” criminal gangs. So he doesn’t fancy doing some dull job in a West End hotel for minimum wage with all the foreign born workers, What’s the point, he might argue. Doing a mugs job for peanuts.

And they only go to Feltham if they get caught, and convicted. Most of the rioters and the gang bangers only get caught every now and again, and when they do, going to Feltham or somewhere is no big deal. Some even see it as a badge of honor to have done some time. To have the experience within their peer group and all the stories to tell.

For another view on this, read the ridiculous Socialist Unity website. What a joke.
And Lee Jasper and Operation Black Vote will be wading in with some nonsense pretty soon too I’m sure. Places like Tottenham have become ghetto-like over the last 40 years, and throwing money at the situation doesn’t bring easy results. Too many people want paid employment as ”community leaders” and youth workers, when what the young people need is to get a job. Any job. And learning to talk properly.

That Socialist Unity piece is absolutely hilarious.

I noticed that someone was stabbed in Enfield last night. Presumably the looters will be out again tonight to protest against their own brutality to themselves…?

Hello racists!

Jody McIntyre is a bit of a prick, isn’t he?

“Be inspired by the scenes in #tottenham, and rise up in your own neighbourhood. 100 people in every area = the way we can beat the feds.”

http://twitter.com/#!/jodymcintyre/status/99948381912313857

No thought for those who lost their homes or their jobs and businesses?

No thought for those who lost their homes or their jobs and businesses?

“You ask if looting is justified, I ask if the police will ever be held accountable for killing people?”

http://twitter.com/#!/jodymcintyre/status/100405534192185344

Can’t condemn looting and demand police accountability, no sir.

@49.

Based on the comments of the people who’ve been condemning the looting, I’d say that’s exactly right.

But then, what’s gained by “condemning the looting”? It’s crime. So? When you spend your time making people poor and scared and sowing divisions up and down and training the police to be your own special anti-terrorism security service, just what is it that you expect is going to happen?

Sure, condemn the individual criminals. Go ahead. See what good that does.

Cheesy Monkey – you and Sally should get a room.

Maybe invite Jody McIntyre to join you.

McDuff @50,

But then, what’s gained by “condemning the looting”? It’s crime. So? When you spend your time making people poor and scared and sowing divisions up and down and training the police to be your own special anti-terrorism security service, just what is it that you expect is going to happen?

I didn’t expect anyone to loot an 89 year old barber’s shop and steal his kettle.

Sure, condemn the individual criminals. Go ahead. See what good that does.

I doubt it would do much “good” for McIntyre to condemn the looting. But he was asked a direct question and chose not to directly answer it. He could have said, “Yes, of course I condemn the looting. I also demand police accountability”. Why didn’t he?

And another thing,

When you spend your time making people poor and scared and sowing divisions up and down and training the police to be your own special anti-terrorism security service, just what is it that you expect is going to happen?

I can sort-of-see how some of the disorder on Saturday was sparked by the frustration caused by the police’s refusal of the police to communicate with the hitherto peaceful demonstrators and other factors / pressures in the area bringing things to a head.

But what happened last night just seems like opportunism. My guess is they saw a weakness in the police’s response to Saturday’s disorder and decided to chance it on Sunday with different areas at roughly similar times.

ISTM there is no legitimacy in looting a local family-run cornershop or even a jeweller’s. What I don’t “expect to happen” is that people with legitimate grievances about police unaccountablilty, social divisions, teh evil bankers etc loot local family-run businesses.

@40: “Bob: actually, Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies have all happily put their names to the claim in question.”

I’ve not commented on the shooting of Mark Duggan because I’ve no idea what really happened or the context as to why he was under police surveillance.

Judging by numerous press and media reports as @35 and @38, many young blacks get killed almost every month and few in the black community appear to give a hoot.

Whether the police were at fault in the shooting of Duggan, I don’t know for the good reason that I know nothing about the course of events. But I do know that because of the arsonists, there are now people without homes, who have lost all their belongings, and people who have lost jobs and businesses.

I didn’t expect anyone to loot an 89 year old barber’s shop and steal his kettle.

I presume from this that you don’t know what a “riot” is. Ergo, why should your opinion really matter?

Rioting is destructive to the people doing the rioting. It’s a breakdown of the social order. That’s why the ownership class so desperately want to make sure that we keep talking about the ruffians who are taking advantage of this breakdown as if they’re the cause rather than the effect. Because nobody wants anyone to point the finger and say “just how did the social order get this bad?”

Because, you know, “black on black street crime” doesn’t just emerge ex nihilo.

sorry: “despite the fact that he is young, male and black, because he’s inside his house after nine at night, he’s not in the streets and he’s not wearing clothes that make him look like he’s about to commit a crime.”
is a police enforced curfew and dress-code is somehow reasonable/to be expected WTF!?

no ruler or government has ever expanded a franchise, shared wealth or increased rights without the imminent and specific threat of violence.

I am a pacifist and abhor violence but why this tired constant trope of ‘mindless violence’ and rioters being ‘small-minded’. It’s become an oral history epithet like ‘cowardly terrorists’, ubiquitous despite glaring inaccuracy. Peaceful protest – nobody notices, smash property – the Worlds media descends.

@55: “Because, you know, ‘black on black street crime’ doesn’t just emerge ex nihilo.”

The obvious but unanswered question is but why don’t ethnic Indian and Chinese youth go around shooting and killing each other?

I can sort-of-see how some of the disorder on Saturday was sparked by the frustration caused by the police’s refusal of the police to communicate with the hitherto peaceful demonstrators and other factors / pressures in the area bringing things to a head.

People don’t riot about that. And they don’t riot because a bloke got shot.

It wasn’t really about Rodney King, you know.

Bob B

GEE I DON’T KNOW IS IT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE A VIOLENT RACE!!?!?

Say what you mean out loud or fuck off.

Also, there is this thing called “The Triads,” if you’re interested in “ethnic Chinese violence”. Y’know, since the motherfucking ethnicity is the problem. Couple of hours on Wikipedia might help y’all out, kid.

@59: “Bob B – GEE I DON’T KNOW IS IT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE A VIOLENT RACE!!?!? Say what you mean out loud or fuck off.”

Why is it that, by reports, some Caribbean islands have much higher rates of violent crime than others? Why is it that some African countries are more given to internal conflicts than others?

McDuff,

I didn’t expect anyone to loot an 89 year old barber’s shop and steal his kettle.

I presume from this that you don’t know what a “riot” is. Ergo, why should your opinion really matter?

I’ve never claimed it does matter (except at work).

Because, you know, “black on black street crime” doesn’t just emerge ex nihilo.

I don’t know why you’re mentioning blacks. I haven’t said anything about ethnicity and I understood whites, blacks, Asians, and Hasidic Jews to be involved in the disorder.

One of the more sensible things I have seen written about events in Tottenham.

I do want to pick up on one point in the comments though about teenagers being out and about in the evening.

Some people seem to be deliberately missing the point. If I had a 14 – 15 year old son would I expect him to be home at 9pm every night? No. But I would want to know where he was and what he was up to. Would I expect him home at 10pm? Generally yes, on a school night, unless there was something very specific happening.

When police stop and search teenagers on the street they are (generally) not the ones who are clearly going to and from somewhere. They are not the ones walking away from the swimming pool with wet hair or playing fields (yes they exist even in North London) with shorts on. They are the ones who at 10-11pm at night are hanging around on a street corner. And in an area with a high crime rate I think the police have every right to have a chat and ask what they are doing there.

Perhaps that is old fashion, if so, then I am old fashioned.

McDuff,

I can sort-of-see how some of the disorder on Saturday was sparked by the frustration caused by the police’s refusal of the police to communicate with the hitherto peaceful demonstrators and other factors / pressures in the area bringing things to a head.

People don’t riot about that.

They don’t riot about “other factors / pressures in the area bringing things to a head”? Is it involuntary and spontaneous, then, if there are no factors / pressures?

And they don’t riot because a bloke got shot.

It wasn’t really about Rodney King, you know.

Last night certainly wasn’t, ISTM.

Wouldn’t have happened in my day. Oh, wait – it did.

My favourite quote was from the woman who complained about the slow response by the police by suggesting that if the riots had happened in Scotland Yard instead of Tottenham the police would have got there straight away. Got to agree there.

‘no ruler or government has ever expanded a franchise, shared wealth or increased rights without the imminent and specific threat of violence.’

Yes, I well remember the bombing campaigns carrired out by homosexuals in the Sixties and the series of assassinations which forced the government to legalise abortion. On the other hand the Angry Brigade achieved nothing: fucking pacifists.

‘When police stop and search teenagers on the street they are (generally) not the ones who are clearly going to and from somewhere. They are not the ones walking away from the swimming pool with wet hair or playing fields (yes they exist even in North London) with shorts on. They are the ones who at 10-11pm at night are hanging around on a street corner. And in an area with a high crime rate I think the police have every right to have a chat and ask what they are doing there.’

No they don’t, unless they have specific grounds for suspicion. Its a public area and Black in charge of a hoodie isn’t a crime.

Why do people keep saying ‘feds’?

Anyway, they’re not disaffected youth who no longer have their youth club ping-pong tables to keep them occupied of an evening. They’re wannabe gangstas who have rejected all the help offered them, who actively resent being educated, who kill others for being in the wrong part of the city, who hate the police regardless, and many of who I’m sure feel that they will make it big on the streets ‘in the game’. The decent working people of the area are being sold very, very short and probably live in fear of these Marlo Stanfield wannabe idiots. Who didn’t see it coming years ago when American gangsta culture became the chosen identity of our inner city ‘youth’.

UKLiberty

Well, OK, yes, everything is caused by “either this thing or another thing”, isn’t it?

I’m saying riots are never about the things that spark them off.

These riots aren’t really about Mark Duggan. So looking and saying “I can see why people would be upset about [$proximate_cause] but I can’t understand why [$thing_unrelated_to_proximate_cause] takes place” doesn’t suggest anything other than you don’t understand.

It doesn’t mean it’s all mindless violence or opportunism. It doesn’t mean it’s not all mindless violence and opportunism. What it means is that you’re looking for a plan of action in a barrel of gunpowder. You’ll never understood what happened if you wonder what all those little bits of sulphur and saltpetre were looking to achieve when they reacted to the spark.

Who didn’t see it coming years ago when American gangsta culture became the chosen identity of our inner city ‘youth’.

Who didn’t see it emerging when all our politicians kept looking at America for examples of how to further impoverish people at the expense of the massive wealth just down the road from them? Can’t imagine.

“Keep working hard and get your GCSEs son, and one day YOU TOO might be able to make ends meet with your grocer’s shop.” Gee, I wonder why dreams of money and power beat that?

McDuff,

These riots aren’t really about Mark Duggan.

I didn’t say they were about Mark Duggan, I said “I can sort-of-see how some of the disorder on Saturday was sparked by…”

So looking and saying “I can see why people would be upset about [$proximate_cause] but I can’t understand why [$thing_unrelated_to_proximate_cause] takes place” doesn’t suggest anything other than you don’t understand.

I didn’t claim to understand it. I said “what happened last night [Sunday] just seems like opportunism. My guess is they saw a weakness in the police’s response to Saturday’s disorder and decided to chance it on Sunday with different areas at roughly similar times.”

It doesn’t mean it’s all mindless violence or opportunism. It doesn’t mean it’s not all mindless violence and opportunism. What it means is that you’re looking for a plan of action in a barrel of gunpowder. You’ll never understood what happened if you wonder what all those little bits of sulphur and saltpetre were looking to achieve when they reacted to the spark.

OK. But in Sunday’s case it looks like there was some human organisation, not a chemical reaction.

I bet whatever human organisation did whatever little bit of planning they did, didn’t plan the whole thing out.

In order to be an opportunist you need an opportunity.

“Who didn’t see it emerging when all our politicians kept looking at America for examples of how to further impoverish people at the expense of the massive wealth just down the road from them? Can’t imagine.”

That doesn’t explain why the community doesn’t appear to give a hoot when black young people have been killed by other blacks – as reported @35 and @38 and, sadly, it would be easy to add many more. It evidently only matters to the community when a black, under surveillance by the police, gets shot.

Not does it explain the lack of community concerns for those who lost their homes and belongings because of the arsonists and those who have lost their jobs and businesses.

Let us be honest we are not talking about community as a whole but a section (i.e the west indian community).
There are massive problems in this community that only they can put right.
Many west indian youths are unteachable, aggressive and with no moral compass. they terrify most of uswith their gang, knife and gun culture, maybe that is due to the media but more youth clubs are no going to solve the problem.
1. They have to accept the problem is themselves not others.
2. West Indian parents have to be less aggressive when they deal with figures of authority (teachers, police, hospitals). the police are actually trying to get rid of the scum who infect your community.
3. West Indian youth except the fact that money is not easy to come by and you have to work for it. Life is not about earning huge amounts by either been a footballer , rapper or drug gangster. Look at the Asian,and chinese community who work their socks off for a wage.
4. Stop romantising gangsters.

Funny how “the community” always means what we want it to mean.

This isn’t “the community”. This is a mob. And mobs don’t emerge because of well-reasoned philosophical dialogues. They’re self-destructive and contradictory. They just burn shit down. That’s why they’re dangerous to everybody, shopkeeper and ruling class alike.

But you want to know something? For all your white-boy farting on about how come the community “didn’t care” about those other things, where the fuck was your concern when it happened? What the hell did you even know about it before now? “The community” didn’t riot over it, that’s all, which meant that you didn’t give a flying shit one way or the other, did you? And now you’re strolling in dropping your little arse-pellets which are just this side of racist like that makes you the clever man?

Fuck that.

If the answer to “why did this happen” is satisfied by “young black men are just criminals, I guess” then we can safely say you’ve got all the intellectual curiosity of a sack of wet sand.

Life is not about earning huge amounts by either been a footballer , rapper or drug gangster.

It is if you’re a footballer, a rapper or a drug dealer.

What about being a stockbroker or an investment banker? Those folks just dropped the entire country down the pan, putting more people out of work than a couple of arsonists. Did we suddenly turn around and tell white kids from Kent that there’s more to life than floating through on daddy’s cash and picking up a half-million quid a year gig fucking people over for cash? Did we buggery.

What about being a stockbroker or an investment banker? Those folks just dropped the entire country down the pan, putting more people out of work than a couple of arsonists. Did we suddenly turn around and tell white kids from Kent that there’s more to life than floating through on daddy’s cash and picking up a half-million quid a year gig fucking people over for cash? Did we buggery.

Do really think I associate myself with them but investment bankers won’t knife my children or scare me shitless when i work throught the streets of London at night

McDuff

I bet whatever human organisation did whatever little bit of planning they did, didn’t plan the whole thing out.

I don’t claim there was a “plan”. The claim is that there were one or more BBMs suggesting to people that they ‘strike’ various boroughs at once.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-61

And there is a rumour about more boroughs being hit tonight.

No, but they’ll charge you £50 for going £3 over your overdraft limit, crash your pension, bleed you dry, and then fund the merger that eventually results in your unemployment.

It’s just as frightening. If you’re paying attention. Luckily for the owning classes, nobody is.

@73: “Many west indian youths are unteachable, aggressive and with no moral compass. they terrify most of us with their gang, knife and gun culture, maybe that is due to the media but more youth clubs are not going to solve the problem.”

For all attempts to claim otherwise, this is not about racism and superior races but about how particular social groups behave. To quote again:

“Government figures show only 15% of white working class boys in England got five good GCSEs including maths and English last year. . . Poorer pupils from Indian and Chinese backgrounds fared much better – with 36% and 52% making that grade respectively.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7220683.stm

“Though white children in general do better than most minorities at school, poor ones come bottom of the league (see chart). Even black Caribbean boys, the subject of any number of initiatives, do better at GCSEs”
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14700670

Imagine the riots that would likely ensue if drugs were legalised so the drugs lost their blackmarket value on the streets.

Bob B,

That doesn’t explain why the community doesn’t appear to give a hoot when black young people have been killed by other blacks – as reported @35 and @38 and, sadly, it would be easy to add many more. It evidently only matters to the community when a black, under surveillance by the police, gets shot.

In fact what you’ve written is utterly untrue and unfair and you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. There have been a number of ‘community’ initiatives aimed at reducing black-on-black violence.You simply do not know what you’re talking about.

No, but they’ll charge you £50 for going £3 over your overdraft limit

For someone who’s so keen on telling other posters that they know nothing you appear to be remarkably ill-informed on what investment bankers are and what they do.

“Did we suddenly turn around and tell white kids from Kent that there’s more to life than floating through on daddy’s cash and picking up a half-million quid a year gig fucking people over for cash? Did we buggery.”
Christ I come from a different era.
I believe that social change is brought about joining unions (with the right to with hold my labour), peaceful protest, lobbying MP’s, addressing and challenging the many right wing trolls on the net, excepting the fact that I probably won’t be a millionaire but I want a society where everyone can have free healthcare and education even if don’t they don’t earn a vast fortune.
Certainly not burning down carpet world and romantising drug barons(who by the way are the perfect anarcho capitalists) .

Haha, fair cop. I know stockbrokers don’t do that either.

Expand the category out. It’s not about what individual members of the financial services class do. It’s about who owns what and our relationship with them. Investment bankers don’t set bank charges. They just exist in the rarefied stratosphere of the financial marketplace that profits from and enforces the poverty of others.

Guttman.

I don’t think these people are here to change the world, you know. I think they’re here because when you’re on the bottom of the pile your commitment to the stability of society is fragile.

Believe it or not, most of “the poor” don’t share in any lofty left wing ideals. Certainly after the 1980s and 90s most of them have cottoned onto the fact that you only get ahead in this society by stealing, because peaceful protest and hard work don’t seem to get you as much as the idealists of the 60s and 70s told everyone it would.

If you teach kids that immoral fuckbags get money, why complain when they believe you? And if they know that they don’t get to be the legal kind of immoral fuckbag, they’re just going to make up their own hierarchies of theft, violence and graft.

It’s not about changing the world. It’s about getting out.

“Government figures show only 15% of white working class boys in England got five good GCSEs including maths and English last year. . . Poorer pupils from Indian and Chinese backgrounds fared much better – with 36% and 52% making that grade respectively.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7220683.stm

“Though white children in general do better than most minorities at school, poor ones come bottom of the league (see chart). Even black Caribbean boys, the subject of any number of initiatives, do better at GCSEs”
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14700670

True Bob and that shows the west indian community has means to pull themselves out of the mess they have placed themselves in.
But exclusion rates amongst west indian students is far higher than any other group.
Also the prison population for the west indian community is much higher than any other group.

But exclusion rates amongst west indian students is far higher than any other group.
Also the prison population for the west indian community is much higher than any other group.

Shit, yeah.

It’s like, no matter how many times we deliberately lock these guys up and remove the advantages of civil society from them during their upbringing, they still won’t take the hint that they should be on OUR side. What’s with them?!

don’t think these people are here to change the world, you know. I think they’re here because when you’re on the bottom of the pile your commitment to the stability of society is fragile.

Believe it or not, most of “the poor” don’t share in any lofty left wing ideals. Certainly after the 1980s and 90s most of them have cottoned onto the fact that you only get ahead in this society by stealing, because peaceful protest and hard work don’t seem to get you as much as the idealists of the 60s and 70s told everyone it would.

If you teach kids that immoral fuckbags get money, why complain when they believe you? And if they know that they don’t get to be the legal kind of immoral fuckbag, they’re just going to make up their own hierarchies of theft, violence and graft.

It’s not about changing the world. It’s about getting out.

I am not going to change but I except it is the world of the individual and greed
I am quite happy with my lot but I fear for my kids.

@66:
>Its a public area and Black in charge of a hoodie isn’t a crime.

Life in this public area won’t improve until it is.

In other words: unfortunately it seems that the living conditions in deprived areas will keep depriving, whatever you do, as long as you tolerate gangsta culture due to a twisted misunderstanding of freedom and human rights. Keep blaming the police and the government, and keep things getting worse.

(In reality, I understand that the Tottenham area has actually developed over the past decades, though I have no first hand experience.)

@80: “In fact what you’ve written is utterly untrue and unfair and you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. ”

That is complete bollocks. You are in denial of umpteen media reports of black-on-black killings of which the links @35 and @38 are but a small sample.. Years back in 1998, the Met Police had to set up the Trident Operation to deal with it.

Here is another (sickening) report:

A teenage girl who acted as a “honey trap” to lure 16 year-old Shakilus Townsend to his death at the hands of a love rival has been convicted of murder.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5778891/Teenage-girl-convicted-of-honey-trap-murder-of-boy-16.html

And another:

Police are hunting two men after 41-year-old Carlton Leonard Ned, was shot in the chest at his home in Langdale Road, Tornton Heath
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/9122352.BREAKING_NEWS__Shooting_victim_named/

It is easy to find many more similar reports and the reasonable expectation is that the “community” would have come together to do something about it. But no such luck.

“investment bankers won’t knife my children or scare me shitless when i work throught the streets of London at night”

No, that’s not their scene, they’ve got much bigger and more lucrative fish to fry. And what they and their ilk do has far worse ramifications for all of us than any sad hoodlums.

It’s like, no matter how many times we deliberately lock these guys up and remove the advantages of civil society from them during their upbringing, they still won’t take the hint that they should be on OUR side. What’s with them?!

There not on my side. Hard working people, whatever colour or creed who want to see a fairer world are my side. Not greedy little thugs who quite happily not pay tax and treat others with contempt.

Yo, Bobby, are you in favour of these riots or not? I can’t work it out.

You’re all like “the community should have done something” but from what I can tell you didn’t give a fucking shit about any of these things when they happened. You only care about them because they’re a rhetorical stick to prove a bunch of people didn’t riot in a way that would prove they were sufficiently concerned about the safety of their children. Y’ain’t exactly setting up the world’s most secure moral high ground there, bubs.

No, that’s not their scene, they’ve got much bigger and more lucrative fish to fry. And what they and their ilk do has far worse ramifications for all of us than any sad hoodlums.

You’re probably right but their is no moral equivalence here.

There not on my side.

That’s right, and you’ve made it abundantly clear to them. So why should they think otherwise?

Incidentally, isn’t the whole point of hard work and earning a decent wage and paying taxes that you *won’t* have to fear for your kids’ future? What, exactly, are you getting out of this arrangement? Fifty years of wage slavery in return for financial insecurity for your kids? C’mon, guttman. If this is all your “side” has to offer why are you so confused that people would rather pick something else?

You’re probably right but their is no moral equivalence here.

Really? Why not?

Bob B,

@80: “In fact what you’ve written is utterly untrue and unfair and you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. ”

That is complete bollocks. You are in denial of umpteen media reports of black-on-black killings of which the links @35 and @38 are but a small sample.

You appear to have a reading comprehension problem: I do not deny there is black-on-black violence. It is implicit that I do not deny it in this sentence:”There have been a number of ‘community’ initiatives aimed at reducing black-on-black violence”.

Years back in 1998, the Met Police had to set up the Trident Operation to deal with it.

Yes – in conjunction with ‘the community’, you moron.

“Community involvement has been seen as key to Trident’s success from the outset, with the Trident Advisory Panel set up to harness public support and keep officers informed.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5342246.stm

“The introduction of the Trident Independent Advisory Group (IAG) was established upon the formation of Trident in June 2000. This group has assisted in harnessing community support and awareness of Trident activity and assisted in promoting the provision of information to police investigating gun criminality in and around London. The group is made up of individuals from within the black communities, drawn from Boroughs where high levels of Trident activity has been recorded. In conjunction with the IAG, various advertising, media and publicity work has been undertaken to communicate the ethos of Trident and ensure that the profile of this Command remains constant and sustained. ”
http://www.met.police.uk/scd/specialist_units/trident_trafalgar.htm

And it’s Operation Trident, not “Trident Operation”. Clearly you know sweet FA about it.

… It is easy to find many more similar reports and the reasonable expectation is that the “community” would have come together to do something about it. But no such luck.

It is true that there is “black-on-black violence”.It is false that ‘the community’ has made no attempt “to do something about it”.

Incidentally, isn’t the whole point of hard work and earning a decent wage and paying taxes that you *won’t* have to fear for your kids’ future? What, exactly, are you getting out of this arrangement? Fifty years of wage slavery in return for financial insecurity for your kids? C’mon, guttman. If this is all your “side” has to offer why are you so confused that people would rather pick something else?

Funny enough I am happy with that, as long the society I belong to is equitable and looks after it’s most vunerable citizens.

“I taught a Year 7 lesson designed specifically to counter the negative views of the police in our class reader, ‘Gangsta Rap’ by Benjamin Zephaniah and was astounded to hear 12 year olds railing against police injustice, calling them the ‘po po’ and the ‘feds’, like they were residents of a drug-riddled block in Baltimore. When I questioned one child as to when his last interaction with the police was he stopped and thought. “Oh,” he said, “the time they helped me when my bike was stolen.””

The sad fact is that every in-group of human beings, social animals that we are, needs an enemy, an out-group of Others to hate. For quite a few groups in British society the Police are now that Enemy.

The specific language used simply reflects also our thralldom to the Yanks.

We live in a very sick and dysfunctional society with greed and corruption rampant at the Top, so why expect those lower down the pecking order to be any better?

UKLiberty, don’t be daft.

When people like Bob say “the community hasn’t done anything” they mean “I’m not aware of it, which means it didn’t happen.”

Don’t you know it’s incumbent on people in Brixton to phone Bob up before they do anything, these days? Otherwise how can they guarantee that he won’t think they’re all shiftless? It’s their own fault, really.

Has anyone bothered to speak to any of the rioters to ask why they were rioting? All I’ve seen and read is mere speculation which has not increased my understanding of events one iota.

Funny enough I am happy with that, as long the society I belong to is equitable and looks after it’s most vunerable citizens.

So you’re happy for your kids to be more financially insecure than you, as long as you live in a society that’s not like ours.

Glad we’ve got that cleared up. You’ve certainly convinced *me* that I should start selling crack on a street corner, anyway.

Yes – in conjunction with ‘the community’, you moron.

Charming, aimed at one of the few gentlemen on the site.

@92: “You’re all like “the community should have done something” but from what I can tell you didn’t give a fucking shit about any of these things when they happened”

I’ve been aware for years of the high incidence of black-on-black killings for years. It is timely to compare here the outrage at the shooting of Duggan in Tottenham, when he was under police surveillance, with the few community ripples that have followed one black-on-black killing after another, some of entirely unconnected and innocent bystanders.

Many years back, I recall taking a bus on a Saturday to go shopping in Croydon to find the highstreet north of West Croydon railway station cordoned off. I asked a passerby what the reason was. He casually replied that a couple of guys had been shot in a local club the previous night. There were a few follow-up reports with a bit more detail in the local press but then it all went quiet. No one was much bothered.

Why do I find it so utterly unsurprising that the guy coming out in favour of keeping your head down and accepting all the shit that life piles on you without expecting it to get better also finds untempered language more offensive than the notion of an entire class of people stealing his children’s future?

So they should have rioted then, Bob?

Guttman,

Yes – in conjunction with ‘the community’, you moron.

Charming, aimed at one of the few gentlemen on the site.

IMV a gentleman does not lie.

@104:

I think you need to translate that.

“Glad we’ve got that cleared up. You’ve certainly convinced *me* that I should start selling crack on a street corner, anyway.”
I hope not.

We live in a very sick and dysfunctional society with greed and corruption rampant at the Top, so why expect those lower down the pecking order to be any better?
True but why not start from the bottom.

@93 I never said there was any “moral equivalence” as you put it.

Quite the opposite in fact. An incident of being physically attcked does not really compare to having your whole society and environment wrecked by Robber Barons over decades does it?

@65 Google stonewall riots.

‘The sad fact is that every in-group of human beings, social animals that we are, needs an enemy, an out-group of Others to hate. ‘

How about Americans then?

‘The specific language used simply reflects also our thralldom to the Yanks.’

Bloody foreigners – coming over here taking over our youths!

What America needs is a prominant Black person – possibly a politician, relatively young, maybe even literate – who could be some kind of role model.

@108 – by the same token, why not start from the top?

Fewer individuals to rehabilitate.

The Chipping Norton Set could go first in an intensive course in learning how to live decent, simple and responsible lives

True but why not start from the bottom.

Because it doesn’t work and you get your face kicked in by the bizzies while people who earn more in a year than you’ll earn in your whole lifetime get to sit down with the Prime Minister and explain to him why you should still lose your job? I dunno, other than that, it sounds like a GREAT idea.

‘@65 Google stonewall riots.’

Sure, the decriminalisation of homosexuality is all down to a wake for Judy Garland that got out of hand and almost brought the State to its knees.

RIGHT WING OUTRAGE METER:

Bankers being rewarded for failure with obscene bonuses = 0

Austerity burden being borne disproportionately by the poor = 0

NHS privatisation without mandate from the British public = 0

Rising NHS waiting lists = 0

Rising unemployment = 0

Tuition fee rises = 0

EMA being scraped = 0

Legal aid cuts = 0

Conservative party links with far-right parties in Europe = 0

Non-citizen tax dodging right-wing media mogul psychopath having final say on UK political decisions = 0

Newspapers having a license to lie = 0

Sick and disabled being routinely slandered by the media and Government = 0

Sick and disabled being driven to despair and left destitute by assessments designed to deny they are sick and disabled = 0

Police routine public humiliation of black people and constant harassment = 0

Police brutality against the poor = 0

Police kettling of peaceful protesters = 0

White collar crime = 0

Homelessness = 0

Privatised energy companies extortionate energy prices and record profits = 0

Companies getting dirt cheap labour via workfare exploitation of the unemployed when there is less jobs than people needing them = 0

Privatised Rail and Bus companies extortionate ever rising prices and record profits = 0

Bullingdon boys restaurant trashing = 0

Growing inequality = 0

Tax dodging = 0

Tax avoidance = 0

Disaffected kids with no future burning and looting= 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 approx.

@111

Fuckin black people. We gave them a single conservative establishment figure in another country and they still think we’re all racist! What more do they want?

@111 Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

Particularly since the Iraq War started quite a few Brits sadly do seem to hate Americans on an individual level, yes.

Personally I merely dislike the hegemony of the US state in a fairly abstract sort of way – but that may be ending …

@ukliberty: “Yes – in conjunction with ‘the community’, you moron.”!

Look dumbo, your abuse is more evident than your capacity for reasoning.

We have already been told here that the BBC stands for British Brainwashing Corporation so any references to it as a source should be disregarded.

Black-on-black crime has go on and on for years for all the efforts of the Trident Operation, with or without the benefit of “community support”.

The painfully obvious question is why hasn’t been necessary for the Met to set up special units to deal with Indian-on-Indian killings?

Why not read through the small sample of the (horrific) reports of black-on-black killings @35, @38 and @89 and then recall how little “community” reaction there was?

Robert
You make a point but really burning down carpet world and looting is the way forward for social change.

The painfully obvious question is why hasn’t been necessary for the Met to set up special units to deal with Indian-on-Indian killings?

Go on Bob. Tell us your answer. Or would you rather imply things with rhetorical questions than state your actual opinion on these things?

Come on, Sir. Out with it.

Guttman

What makes you think people are setting fire to things because they want to enact social change?

In any event there’s no doubt it will work for the subset of society that now feels significantly less safe. Or is that not the kind of social change you’d prefer?

Stop fucking speculating!

Bob B, since you wish to discuss black-on-black crime, which has been widely acknowledged as a problem by pretty much everyone, both in UK and US for decades, surely there is an elephant in the room, which is the massive trauma and social and psychological disintegration through the generations due to Slavery? This manifests itself in a whole tangle of phenomena such as increased family breakdown.

Or is your approach like some say to those with depression – just to say they should “pull themselves together” and “get over it”?

Funny, that never works.

“You make a point but really burning down carpet world and looting is the way forward for social change.”

From decades back, I noticed that there are many more active community associations for those from ethnic Indian backgrounds than for those from Carribean and African ethnicities.

The fact is that there isn’t a monolithic, homogeneous culture among blacks – compare David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, who was born and brought up there in a single-parent family – but there is very evidently a prevailing gang and criminal culture which draws in many black yoof and, sadly, black yoof comprise a disproportionately high percentage of school exclusions year after year.

For all the official initiatives, there appears to have been little impact on the prevailing criminal culture. The black-on-black killings continue, year after year.

@114 Thats one way to dismiss the spark that ignited the whole gay rights movement, with even a modern day org in Britian being named after it, I suppose.

Bob B,

@ukliberty: “Yes – in conjunction with ‘the community’, you moron.”!

Look dumbo, your abuse is more evident than your capacity for reasoning.

We have already been told here that the BBC stands for British Brainwashing Corporation so any references to it as a source should be disregarded.

Then see http://www.met.police.uk/scd/specialist_units/trident_trafalgar.htm as previously referenced.

Black-on-black crime has go on and on for years for all the efforts of the Trident Operation, with or without the benefit of “community support”.

The painfully obvious question is why hasn’t been necessary for the Met to set up special units to deal with Indian-on-Indian killings?

Presumably because there are fewer such killings?

Why not read through the small sample of the (horrific) reports of black-on-black killings @35, @38 and @89 and then recall how little “community” reaction there was?

Bob, you wrote,

“That doesn’t explain why the community doesn’t appear to give a hoot when black young people have been killed by other blacks – as reported @35 and @38 and, sadly, it would be easy to add many more. It evidently only matters to the community when a black, under surveillance by the police, gets shot.”

Some more initiatives showing that contrary to Bob B’s ignorant beliefs, ‘the community’ does in fact “give a hoot”:

http://www.eyla.org.uk/
http://www.peacealliance.org.uk/
http://www.familiesutd.com/

One of the complaints from such organisations is that the media rarely reports on them. That may be why Bob B is ignorant of such organisations – although, being a Londoner IIRC, he must have read something about them in the Evening Standard over the years, because that’s where I heard of them.

Have a listen to Eddie Nestor’s show on BBC London radio now, between 5pm and 7pm. It’s online.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england/london/

Looting has broken out in Hackney just now, and I think it could start off all over London tonight.

You can bet your life that these ”bad boys” from Thornton Heath are seriously thinking about some trouble tonight in Croydon – if they haven’t started already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjql5Qjd47I

Around West Croydon train station I’d guess would be the place for it to start.

We’ve heard a lot about Mark Duggan in the last couple of days, but I don’t hear much talk about Daniel Famakinwa. Shot dead on saturday in West Norwood.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14442130

It’s not really rocket science. Those young guys can’t face doing dead end jobs for low pay. They would rather ”stick man up” as one guy in the youtube raps.

“young guys can’t face doing dead end jobs for low pay”

Yes, and who can blame them. Not forgetting also that years of aspirationalism from our rulers has brainwashed young people from birth to believe that they are entitled to glamorous work at high pay.

“They would rather ”stick man up” as one guy in the youtube raps.”

For sure. And what was that Marx said about the Lumpenproletariat?

We’re sitting on a time bomb, and this is just the start of the inevitable disintegration of our society, which has been built on sand – and very expensive sand at that.

McFuff: ‘Fuckin black people. We gave them a single conservative establishment figure in another country and they still think we’re all racist! What more do they want?’

I was specifically responding to birdie’s claim that the riots were down to infection by ‘Yank’ (he means African American) culture so a prominant counter-example was called for. When we have more Black people in power we can make sweeping generalisations about US culture contaminating the UK.

Birdie:

‘@111 Not sure what point you’re trying to make.’

My point was your assertion that the riots were down to the influence of ‘Yank’ culture when the ‘Yanks’ – which is apparently a permissable racist term on this site so long as you don’t say ‘Black Yanks’, which is who you are talking about here – have produced more than just ‘Gangsta Rap’ and even if we do restrict the discussion to Hip-Hop itself you offer a hysterical stereotype of a vibrant and largely *positive* musical genre with a political and often satirical edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-8Ykfm4E_Y

Well, “is one contributory factor among many” is not the same as “is the cause”, but thanks for playing and I hope you’ll come back and join us next time for a chance to win a Liberal Conspiracy chequebook-cover and pen!

it is anarchy out there.
I have just heard from and asian shopkeeper who has worked hard all his life and his livelyhood has been taken away from afro – carib yobs.
Bring in the ARMY.
Deport gang members back to their original countries.

Funny, I keep seeing plenty of pale arms chucking stuff at the police and carrying booty on the TV, but this wonderful, warm, tolerant inclusive society very much likes the idea of rioting being a blacks only practice for some reason, they really seem to LOVE that idea, (couldn’t possibly guess what that could be though), so I guess people will just continue with the genetically predisposed to anti-social behaviour black youths narrative then.

@38- My problem with the Blair Bush Corporation is not restricted to how it is covering events in London. The problem is that we have another established institution in this country that puts itself on a pious pedestal, a supposedly world renowned, impartial, non-partisan organisation that is anything but.

Since Mark Thompson became DG in 2004 their foreign affairs news reports might just as well be memos dished out by the FO or MOD. If this is how the BBC conducts itself with regards to millions of men, women and children having their lives destroyed as a direct consequence of our political establishments foreign policy objectives, what stance are they going to take when civil disorder reaches our shores?

By all means ask every man, woman and child that you shove a microphone in front of to repeatedly “condemn” the “violence” of looters and rioters. But by the same token the exact approach should be taken with those in authority, to “condemn” their own sanctioned “violence” – this of course never happens.

In short BBC News is state-run/owned/controlled/influenced, and we all know what kind of individuals are in control of the state.

@132 And if they’re born and raised in Tottenham, where shall you deport them too? Australia? I understand that ship sailed YEARS ago.

Fucking hell, some of these comments have more baggage than my mum when she comes for Christmas and the stupidity of CiF’s lower quartile contributors. It’s pretty sad.

I notice my local anarchists are getting all excited. Of course, it’s not happening anywhere near their homes and shops.

Sorry for gang members
yes

I have just heard from and asian shopkeeper who has worked hard all his life and his livelyhood has been taken away from afro – carib yobs.
Bring in the ARMY.
Deport gang members back to their original countries.

Anyone else surprised that it took this long to get here? Only takes a little push.

Funny but a lot of the lads I’ve seen on TV have been white.

Not a lot of women there, though. I think you’re looking at the wrong thing – this is obviously caused by men. We should send males back where they came from. That makes far more sense than singling out an ethnic group.

Yes, and who can blame them. Not forgetting also that years of aspirationalism from our rulers has brainwashed young people from birth to believe that they are entitled to glamorous work at high pay.

Quite, boomers have raised a generation of willy lomans and done very well out of it, like all entitled groups they think there’ll be no consequences, but there will.

@134. Billy Legit: “Since Mark Thompson became DG in 2004 their foreign affairs news reports might just as well be memos dished out by the FO or MOD.”

What was in the news about Africa over the last couple of days? A couple of stories about the Rwandan government threatening political exiles living in London? They were on the BBC and the journalists did not pull punches, questioning why direct aid is given to the Rwandan government whilst UK police officers are providing security advice to exiles.

And still David Cameron is putting his feet up on holiday with a sign on the door that say’s ” Do Not Disturb “.

There are riots all over London and fires are burning. London is possibly descending into chaos and Cameron’s holiday is more important than London descending into chaos. That just about sums up David Cameron’s attitude.

What exactly do you think David Cameron being in London would achieve?

@136- Fucking hell indeed!

Plenty of baggage because there are numerous reasons for what is happening.

But hey, as long as you’re o.k (Xmas is only 20 weeks away- yippee!)

@140- “What was in the news about Africa over the last couple of days?”

NATO carpet bombing the crap out of residential areas in Tripoli?…..er, no……i wonder why?

@138 – Lots and lots of women among the looters. Standing up to the police among burning cars and buildings IS a young male thing though, yea…

Ssh, don’t challenge my preconceptions with evidence!

@144. Billy Legit: “NATO carpet bombing the crap out of residential areas in Tripoli?”

Indeed, you are correct that there was no carpet bombing of Tripoli. By definition, carpet bombing is about the use of unguided weapons on a target.

But your comments are carpet bombs. You do not have the capacity to inform debate but wish to destroy it with random explosions of irrelevance.

McDuff at 142

1/ For a start David Cameron should take the London riots more seriously.

2/ He should cut short his holiday to demonstrate the seriousness of the riots.

3/ He should recall Parliament and if need be summon all MP’s to attend Parliament as a matter of urgency to debate this issue and to see: What Can Be Done because this situation cannot be tolerated or wait.

4/ They/He should put in place a plan of action before and after the debate.

5/ He should demonstrate to the United Kingdom that he (The Prime-Minister) recognizes the seriousness of the situation rather than putting his feet up watching others try and tackle the chaos.

6/ He should demonstrate that there is leadership from the top.

7/ He should demonstrate to the United Kingdom that he cares.

What is the point of having a Prime-Minister that would rather put his feet up and have a drink in a foreign land whilst the United Kingdom descends into Chaos and Anarchy. David Cameron shound be seen to be taking this entire situation serious at the least.

Goodness. All that Seriousness and Doing $SOMETHING (details to be filled in) and showing us that he cares. Yes, you’re right. That would certainly prevent us sliding into the abyss.

So, basically, he wouldn’t do anything but you want him to dance around and pretend to do something because that would make you feel more comfortable. Righty ho!

What is the point of having a Prime-Minister that would rather put his feet up and have a drink in a foreign land whilst the United Kingdom descends into Chaos and Anarchy.

Well, at the very least it avoids us having to tolerate him being here to Demonstrate His Seriousness, which is a positive upside in my book.

@146: Oops!

@148: Something which becomes exponentially harder for every night this goes on. I fear the message will be all about security, which will have an effect resembling tightly squeezing a balloon of water, rather than addressing the very real issues behind this. Which will, yes, mean the government having to make some changes.

Nothing in their monomania so far suggests to me they’re capable of resolving this.

(And past a certain point…no, not going there)

@141. Mr Grunt: “There are riots all over London and fires are burning. London is possibly descending into chaos and Cameron’s holiday is more important than London descending into chaos. That just about sums up David Cameron’s attitude.”

And Boris Johnson’s attitude too.

The thing is that neither of them have a qualification in riot control. Nor do their deputies who are here in the UK, working with police officers who have studied riot control (the latter may or may not be useless).

If a politician feels unable to delegate responsibility, s/he should step down on the grounds of megalomania or find useful delegates. We don’t elect political leaders on the basis of their ability to manage riots, but we expect them to appoint politicians and servants of society who are competent.

If David Cameron cuts his holiday short, we can assume that he judges some of his appointees to be incompetent.

@151 – That’s proven by the fact this kicked off in the first place. Failures of this magnitude are not built overnight.

McDuff at 149

Thankfully the damage for David Cameron has been done and most people can now see where his priorities are.

Hopefully that arrogant smile will leave David Camerons face permanently and he will choke on his own deceit and lies, hopefully, I prey.

There is nothing new about the Met’s Trident Operation relating to black-on-black crimes. It dates dates back to 1998:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trident_(Metropolitan_Police)

“Thankfully the damage for David Cameron has been done and most people can now see where his priorities are.

Hopefully that arrogant smile will leave David Camerons face permanently and he will choke on his own deceit and lies, hopefully, I prey.”

I doubt it.

I think this is just what the Doctor ordered for Stay Puft Marshmallow Psychopath aka the Prime Minister. Tories love this stuff, it excites them as much as the rioters. It gives them a chance to beat their chests, talk and act tough, posture, blame the poor for their poverty and make thinly veiled racist pronouncements.

Somehow the Conservative Economic Terrorist party and its media wing will find a way to use this as an excuse for even more economic terrorism against the poor and disenfranchised, more cuts to vital services in their areas, blanket curfews, and more indiscriminate police repression, humiliation and brutality against all the people in these areas making no distinction between the hardworking law abiding people and the criminals as a “solution” to the “mindless thugery”.

This news report dates from January 2007:

According to the Office for National Statistics, unemployment among 16 and 17-year- olds has risen from 19.9 per cent when Labour came to power in 1997 to 25.3 per cent now. The number of unskilled jobs has dropped from 8 million in the 1960s to 3.5 million now.

A recent Treasury report predicted that the number of unskilled jobs would drop to only 600,000 by 2020, making it almost impossible for unskilled teenagers to find work.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article1292132.ece

Compare the news reports @79.

@155 – And you think most people will take that lying down? That’s one of the true dangers here.

@156 – That says as much as teaching-to-the-test as anything. Labour failed in spectacular fashion there, yes.

@157: “@156 – That says as much as teaching-to-the-test as anything. Labour failed in spectacular fashion there, yes.”

I regard that as just silly, uninformed nonsense.

Skill and education gaps in Britain have been a live policy issue in Britain all my adult life.

By the mid 1970s, half the adult population had no educational qualifications. Twenty years on, that had been reduced to a quarter. The tests are needed to identify failing schools and to maintain pressure on youth to work at schools and colleges to attain standards. Prior to the financial crisis, there were many reports in the news about immigrants, especially from eastern Europe, taking the jobs because empoyers valued their skills and attitudes to work:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5913970.ece

“In the first year of the Coalition, 87 per cent of the 400,000 newly created jobs have gone to immigrants — as Britons fail to chase work, according to new official figures uncovered by the Labour MP. Under previous Labour administrations the figure was about 80 per cent.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8585750/Frank-Field-Migrants-take-nine-out-of-10-jobs.html

@147- “But your comments are carpet bombs. You do not have the capacity to inform debate but wish to destroy it with random explosions of irrelevance.”

Irrelevance?…..the murder of civilians an irrelevance? I suppose some penfold who nit-picks over semantics to detract attention away from the end result will of course refer to the casualties as an “irrelevance”.

As for the defintion of carpet bombing being “unguided weapons on a target” is that not the hallmark of the U.S military?

Maybe the following definitions of what NATO are “achieving” in Libya will be more to your liking (doubt it though, because none of the sources are the BBC)

BREAKING NEWS: NATO Launches Bombing Blitzkrieg over Tripoli …
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.

Carpet bombing Tripoli.
http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,835943

PressTV – ‘NATO drops uranium bombs on Libya’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/186642.html – Cached

NATO sued for the murders of innocent Libyan civilians
pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/

Libyan civilians ‘killed in Nato air strike’ – Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/libya/…/Libyan-civilians-killed-in-Nato-air-strike...

Libya accuses Nato of deadly air strike on residential area …
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/…/libya-nato-air-strike-residential – Cached
“Nato confirms that it was operating in Tripoli last night, …

Charges mount of NATO war crimes in Libya
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a06.shtml – Cached
2 days ago – NATO forces are charged with allowing refugees to drown and deliberately targeting civilian journalists for bombing.

@Shatterface 129

1. I did not “assert that the riots were down to the influence of ‘Yank’ culture”. What I wrote was that “The specific language used [Feds] simply reflects also our thralldom to the Yanks.” which is quite another thing. We are in thrall to the Yanks and have been since our aristocracy ran out of money at the end of the Victorian era and started selling off our country and marrying heiresses from the US in droves. Since WW2 our poodledom has intensified, further culminating in the vicious ThatchBlairCam hydra that has led us off to war so heedlessly.

2. Yank is not a racist term, so you don’t need to be so aggressive to me. See eg,

http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/national-news/127703-racism-charges-for-saying-yank-thrown-out-of-court.html

3. “He” is a she, thank-you.

The tests are needed to identify failing schools and to maintain pressure on youth to work at schools and colleges to attain standards. Prior to the financial crisis, there were many reports in the news about immigrants, especially from eastern Europe, taking the jobs because empoyers valued their skills and attitudes to work:

And we can’t have that, can we!

What this comes down to is a fundamental crisis of two different philosophies. There is the rapid development of technology which enables people to work less, coupled with the protestant morality which says that the only moral way to give money to those who haven’t got it is to make them work for it. Work reduces but people’s need for food doesn’t. Thus we require a welfare state to distribute capital to those whose labour is unneeded, but resent those whose labour is unneeded as shiftless and lazy. Dilemma! Quick, grow the economy so that all those unemployed people can eat morally!

Of course, because this system is inherently unsustainable, not to mention philosophically barmy and batshit insane, you end up with people who are “jobless” being thrown off the bottom rung of society because of that situation, told that because society doesn’t need their labour that society despises them. And then, what larks and japes, those people don’t feel that they owe society shit, and resent said society, and set bits of that society on fire!

Hilarious, I’m sure you’ll all agree.

This killing had nothing to do with the Yanks or the Police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkYAnLtAm40

There were no riots after Shakilus Townsend was killed on 3 July 2008:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8116380.stm

This table shows every known victim of murder or manslaughter aged 10-19 in the UK from 1 Jan 2008 to end 2009:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7777635.stm

@147- The murder of civilians is of no doubt an “irrelevance” to someone like yourself. Full marks for your “capacity to inform debate”- you’ve exposed yourself for what you really are.

Right, Bob, you keep saying.

And your point is that they all should have rioted earlier, right?

Or, what? What’s your point?

“Or, what? What’s your point?”

Very evident – except to the dimmest.

The perpetration of black-on-black killing doesn’t matter to “the community” – on the evidence. It’s just one of those unfortunate happenings except for the relatives and friends of the young victim. But “the community” regards it as an affront to justice when a man under surveillance by the police gets shot. If those are “the community” values, they look deeply sick to me..

Lib Dem Simon Hughes on LBC demonstrated his keen grasp of “liberalism” by demanding that BBM and Twitter be switched off, water canons to be deployed and a curfew to be enacted.

So you think they should have rioted earlier?

Since, as has already been pointed out, people were doing stuff to try to tackle violence before this. And this current bunch of rioting is, like, a few hundred young lads with grudges, not really “the community”. But, they’ve made you sit up on your high horse, haven’t they?

So, I reckon you’re saying that since this represents “caring” in your view, that the only way for them to demonstrate to you that they care, since you’re so fucking important, would have been for them to have rioted earlier.

Otherwise you’ll say those values are deeply sick. And it’s not about racism, but well, they just don’t love their kids like we do. I mean, how often do you see a white blonde young woman on the front pages of the papers? That means white middle class people just CARE MORE, that’s what’s going on.

So – if black poor people in London had really wanted to see an end to violence they’d have burned down a carpet shop years ago. Gotcha, Bob!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=player_embedded

9.49pm: Ben Quinn is in Clapham Junction, south London:

“Onlookers and locals identified many of those present as “blues, yellows and reds”, members of local gangs who they said had called a truce for the evening. Along Northcote Road the windows of other stores in including Starbucks were smashed.

The gangs ran along the road and at one point a middle-aged man and his wife pointed in the direction of a jewellers further up the road and other potential targets.
Less than 30 metres away dozens of revellers stood outside a local pub drinking beer and looking on.

As it became apparent after 20 minutes of looting that the police were not coming back the looters were joined by many more.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live

“Tottenham” Riots is out of date already. Day 3. It’s spreading rapidly.

It’s the school summer holidays, increasingly a tense time. How many this year have left school now, having been promised the Earth and finding there’s no future for them. The world economic situation is catastrophic, we can only dimly imagine how bad.

In our selfish, atomised society many people are happy to sit back and watch “the fun” so long as it’s not their livelihood that’s getting trashed. They’ll probably, like a few ignorant here say it’s just the ******* kicking off again, what do you expect.

There’s war breaking out all over, food shortages and price spirals.

It’s tense, and that tension’s bound to find outlet.

Twitter and Blackberry creates a whole new mob mentality, and a mob has not human psychology.

Some of the gangs we’ve allowed to flourish are testing out their power – “we rule the street”.

“this system is inherently unsustainable, not to mention philosophically barmy and batshit insane” Spot on McDuff.

Welcome to Modern Britain, just in time for the Olympics!

@165. Cylux: “Lib Dem Simon Hughes on LBC demonstrated his keen grasp of “liberalism” by demanding that BBM and Twitter be switched off, water canons to be deployed and a curfew to be enacted.”

Yeah, liberalism. The capacity to live your life without some bully taking control. If somebody tries to run my life I welcome the friends who take on bullies.

@169 Well, glad to see your support of the state there. They’ll protect you from the bullies.

@166: “So you think they should have rioted earlier?”

It doesn’t seemed to have occurred to you that there might possibly be other methods and aims of constructive and effective social organisation than rioting – but there you go. That could illuminate much for us here.

I’ve already remarked @124 that from personal experience going back decades – to the early 1970s, in fact – ethnic Indian communities had many active community associations, ranging from Indian Workers through to India League, but no comparable associations for the Carribean and African communities.

Judging by results, the supposed “community support” for the Trident Operation, which has been going since 1998, doesn’t seem to have achieved much by way of curbing black-on-black killings. But that doesn’t appear to worry “the community” a jot. May be “the community” ought to be doing something more effective about curbing black-on-black killings.

Maybe you should go down there and wag your finger at them, Bob. I’m sure that would be the best thing. You could tell them that they’ve shown that they really don’t care at all, that their values sicken you, and that if they *really* cared they’d do things *your way*.

I suppose the possibility that some shit just happens even if people don’t like it, and that “caring deeply” about something doesn’t actually do fuck about all, has never occurred to you? Nope. Bunch of brown-types have got social issues, so obviously they’re just not pulling their socks up hard enough.

Once again, it turns out it’s all the fault of the negroes! Congratulations, Mr Bob! I always look forward to seeing original thinkers like you show up. Perhaps you should float your “the values of the black community sicken me” thesis to the newspapers and see if they can run an editorial trumpeting your totally original and in no sense utterly fatuous conclusions to the masses. After all, I’m sure a bunch of other white people have totally failed to come to that conclusion of their own accord, and probably need you to tell them.

@172: “Maybe you should go down there and wag your finger at them, Bob”

I’m just an aged pensioner now but have had a long and varied career of social and public engagement. Social analysis is a valuable tool and it can be illuminating to compare the social values and expressions of different ethnic communities – especially in the current context.

Why don’t we observe Indian-on-Indian killings? Why didn’t the Met find it necessary to establish a special unit to curb such killings? The extent of black-on-black kilings and their apparent motivation, despite operation Trident, tells us something instructive about the social values of “the community”.

There’s nothing particularly racist about this analysis. In the 1930s, Glasgow had serious social problems from political corruption, neighbourhood gangs and knife crime. Glasgow brought in Percy Sillitoe, who had previously been chief constable of Sheffield. He used tough means to curb extensive political corruption in the city – some magistrates and local politicians ended up in jail – and to intimidate the gangs, on occasion employing extra legal means, such as sending round squads of heavies to beat up gang leaders and active members.

The problems receded. When WW2 started, he was appointed head of MI5.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Sillitoe

Funny how you seem to never quite say what it tells us though. That they just don’t care enough? Is that it? That they need a bit of “tough love” to get brought back into being decent and well behaved citizens? Maybe Operation Trident should have focussed less on reaching out to the community and more on breaking some heads with batons? You reckon?

Glasgow, of course, is a mecca of peace now. Famed for it.

News update:

Croydon residents leap from burning buildings as capital burns

People were forced to leap from the upstairs windows of a burning building in Croydon last night as rioting spread across London and beyond
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8690213/London-riots-Croydon-residents-leap-from-burning-buildings-as-capital-burns.html

@173 – Heard of forced marriages within the Indian community? Not so rosy, it is? And honour killings, and…

Yeah, but it’s not the exact kind of crime that Bob cares about, so it doesn’t count. Duh.

@177: “Yeah, but it’s not the exact kind of crime that Bob cares about, so it doesn’t count. Duh.”

Try the (chilling) events reported in the links @161.

Well as long as they’re “chilling”, Bob, that must mean they’re worse than anything else done by other ethnic groups EVAR. You’re obviously right. Those negroes just don’t care about murders unless there’s a chance to nick something in it for them.

Let’s bust some heads!

Local vigilante groups are one kind of community response – as reported here:

A gang of brave residents took to the streets to defend their community in Crystal Palace.
Following an attack on the Blockbuster Video store, in Westow Street, about 20 locals decided they would protect the road.
One woman who was protecting the store, Noreen Meehan, said at one point a police car stopped but then carried on.
She said: “They clearly had better things to do.”
She said a gang of about five youths had been hanging around looking for opportunities to steal and loot.
The residents had decided enough was enough.
She said: “I think Crystal Palace is like that.
“We have a sense of community.”
http://www.streathamguardian.co.uk/news/9184259.Crystal_Palace_residents_take_a_stand_against_looters/

This is what the Big Society may come down to. With enough local support in places like Tottenham, might it just help to curb black-on-black killing?

Yep, sounds like the “Big Society” alright! Rioting emerges when large populations of economically abandoned young men realise that the police can’t do anything to stop them taking what they want, and residents are left to fend off the mob for themselves.

It’s probably going to leave us with a bit of that Blitz Spirit. You know, the feeling of community and togetherness that only a bunch of burning buildings and deaths can bring about. Perhaps we should institute some kind of warning siren, to warn the communities when the gangs are roaming the streets so that they can take cover in the underground.

“Rioting emerges when large populations of economically abandoned young men ”

I suggest re-reading the quotes @79 about the very different educational attainments of poor kids who qualified for free school meals. Why do poor kids with Chinese and Indian ethnicity get so much better GCSE results?

David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, was born and brought up there in a single-parent family. How come?