Published: June 13th 2011 - at 10:02 amWhere did the council houses come from Cam?
On Saturday morning on ITV David Cameron said (10mins 30 secs):
I get people coming to my constituency surgery saying exactly that: “We waited before we got married until we could afford it, we waited till we could afford to have children, we waited and then we managed to get a house and I see someone down the road do none of those responsible things and they get put up in a council house, they have as many children as they want.
Which council houses would these be then?
West Oxfordshire Borough Council, in which Cameron’s consituency sits, got rid of its council housing in 2001.
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Paul Cotterill is a regular contributor, and blogs more regularly at Though Cowards Flinch, an established leftwing blog and emergent think-tank. He currently has fingers in more pies than he has fingers, including disability caselaw, childcare social enterprise, and cricket.
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Reader comments
Eh? There’s still social housing in West Oxon, it’s just been transferred to RSLs.
It’s a fun point, and he should be more careful with his language. But to be honest, in my experience most people still use the phrase “Council house” to refer to both houses owned and managed by the Council, and houses built by the Council but since transferred to a housing association.
OP @2: But then Cameron isn’t really “most people”. He’s MP for the area.
The excuse of course is that he’s supposedly quoting someone but I don’t think that quite washes. Look closely and he refers to “people” before going on to say what was “said”, so it can’t be a directly remembered quote but an approximation of views he thinks he’s heard – a form of indirect free speech which mixes first and third person for rhetorical effect. It’s a device he’s used before to make it look like he’s really in touch with people (e.g. the 40 year old black man in Plymouth who’d been in the Navy for 30 years).
I think therefore there are decent grounds to suspect that a) no constituent ever said any such thing and that this kind of invention is actually pretty reflective of his whole attitude; b) he really doesn’t know there’s no council housing in his constituency.
Either way, he’s a pillock.
While he’s clearly a pillock, I think politicians have discretion to talk in the vernacular even when the vernacular is technically incorrect.
I just tweeted about “council estates”, I should have said “large clusters of housing managed either by a local authority, an arms length management organisation, or a registered social landlord”, but then I wouldn’t have had much room to say anything else in 140 characters. People talk of Registry Offices when no such thing exists, and of truancy when they mean all unauthorised absences from school.
Make fun of him, by all means, and use his inexactitude to undermine his argument – just as long as it doesn’t by implication set a requirement for Labour politicians to use the wonkspeak of a think-tank report, and allow Cameron free range over the language used and identified with by, y’know, voters.
Hmm, where indeed? Successive Labour governments certainly didn’t get many built.
OP@4: Yes, a good point, though I hardly think any of us are in a position to set requirements for how Labour politicians speak.
My point, such as it is, is that it’s legitimate enough to call Cameron out on this “look at me, I understand how the common people think” rhetorical device tha he’s so fond of, if he’s using that device to mislead people. Its use was misleading on this occasion because of the specific issues around council/RSL housing allocation; he’s suggesting that this so-called allocation problem is some kind of dysfunctional/mollycoddling state issue, whereas in fact the state is not officially involved in it at all.
@6
The state has no involvement? Aren’t RSLs required to charge rents and allocate housing on the same basis as Councils?
What exactly is the difference between having social housing provided by an RSl and a council?
@Fungus #7:
“Aren’t RSLs required to charge rents and allocate housing on the same basis as Councils?”
Part VI of the HA 1996 does *not* apply to RSLs (more correctly “private registered providers of social housing”). Many/most/all RSLs have nomination arrangements permitting local authorities to allocate some/all of their vacancies. IME nobody seeking allocation of a Council house describes a housing association property as a Council house.
@Fungus #7 (again):
“What exactly is the difference between having social housing provided by an RSL and a council?”
Tenure (secure v assured); rent level (higher in RSLs, albeit levels are harmonising slowly other than in market-rented properties); Right to Buy (none for new RSL tenants not transferring from Council housing).
Otherwise, nothing whatsoever…;-)
@oldpolitics
#”:
“But to be honest, in my experience most people still use the phrase “Council house” to refer to both houses owned and managed by the Council, and houses built by the Council but since transferred to a housing association.”
IME, only if they either were already living there, or don’t want a Council house.
#4:
“I just tweeted about “council estates”, I should have said “large clusters of housing managed either by a local authority, an arms length management organisation, or a registered social landlord”…”
One of these things is not like the other two…
If we are being technical the phrase “RSL” was ended by the 2008 Housing and Regeneration Act.
@Paul Smith #11:
“If we are being technical the phrase “RSL” was ended by the 2008 Housing and Regeneration Act.”
Indeed (see my #8); but RSL is a lot easier to say than “private registered provider of social housing”.
@9
You are quite right, very little difference. Rent convergence is due in 2015/16, there is not that much difference between assured and secured tenancy and RSL tennants have right to acquire instead of right to buy.
@Fungus #13:
“You are quite right, very little difference. Rent convergence is due in 2015/16″
It might be due, on certain assumptions, but but rents are still significantly different – the more so when market-based rents are taken into account. Because of the limits on Council rent increases, convergence happens in the year that Council rents reach RSL rents; Council rents aren’t required to converge with RSL rents in a particular year.
And then there are Affordable Rents, whose main features are that they are higher than social rents and shift funding for future housing from government capital budgets to RSL rental streams.
“there is not that much difference between assured and secured tenancy”
Hmm; succession rights, assignment rights, right to manage, right to repair are obvious differences, all more generous to secure tenants; although it is fair to say that RSLs generally, voluntarily or otherwise, will provide by contract what secure tenants receive by statute.
“and RSL tennants have right to acquire instead of right to buy.”
Some RSL tenants do; those in post 1997 property built with SHG support, or in former Council housing transferred after 1997. The discounts differ.
I live on a council estate of 250 council houses, well thats not right because 198 have been sold and belong to people who bought them, but we still say council estate, oh yes ten have just been bought and returned to the council house list after being on sale for three years.
In fact if you look at my estate of 250 houses I’d say maybe 40 are actually rented now, a large number are boarded up as the council cannot afford to do them up.
I doubt very much that Little Lord Fauntleroy has the first idea about social housing, or the requirements placed on both the tenants and the landlords. The poor condition of some council properties, the fact that some will choose to stay in a sub-standard council house because they are priced out of private renting, sod all chance of getting a mortgage and the disgraceful actions of illegal sub-letters,(greedy bastards!) This entire coalition is made up of people whose only personal experience of social housing is from their time in the dorms at Eton, or whichever posh kennels their parents shipped them off to. I’d like to take them, at gunpoint if need be, to some of the most crime ridden, depressing, end of the world shitholes in the UK,(plenty to choose from) and leave them there for a month. Then maybe they’d realise how hard life is in the real world. I would’nt expect them to suddenly start caring about the people living in those places, but it may make them realise that it is a million miles between their cosy, protected existence and life on the battlefield that is the harsh reality for many. We did NOT elect them, we do NOT support them, we MUST be rid of them NOW! General election 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember a BBC radio documentary about “immigrants getting council houses”. The journalist interviewed people who complained about council houses in their neighbourhood being filled with immigrants. She then went to each of these houses/families. In 100 % of the cases, the houses were not owned by the council at all and the immigrants rented privately.
I think that the population deem far too many flats and houses “council houses” although they are not or no longer.
Not every ugly building is a council house.
Reactions: Twitter, blogs
- Liberal Conspiracy
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Ferret Dave
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Mabel Horrocks
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://t.co/PieL5p4
- Mike Rowley
Cameron's remarkable made-up rant against non-existent West Oxfordshire Council tenants: http://t.co/UWUAoY2 (good spot @Bickerrecord)
- Ciaran McNulty
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Chris Bertram
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Sam Morecorft
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://t.co/D6Ms6eO Bit of a fail there
- Tony Braisby
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/bmyUxA0 via @libcon
- The G
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- Kirstin Donaldson
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- David Platt
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- sunny hundal
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Mabel Horrocks
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- barry leary
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Sam Morecorft
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Nicholas Wilson
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- James Webley
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://t.co/gFnbSz0
- Jen
RT @sunny_hundal: Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good s
- nelsoncook
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Jill Hayward
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Elaine King
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- paulstpancras
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/CSpeBKk via @libcon
- Paul Crowley
Your constituents complain about the council houses down the road? Odd that, since there aren't any http://t.co/ran3xbl
- Paul Crowley
Your constituents complain about the council houses down the road, Mr Cameron? Odd that, since there aren't any http://t.co/ran3xbl
- Tamsin
RT @sunny_hundal Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://t.co/ZIKZpaQ
- Suzi
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Jack Seale
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- John Self
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Chris Boyle
Your constituents complain about the council houses down the road, Mr Cameron? Odd that, since there aren't any http://t.co/ran3xbl
- Peter Harvey
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Johnny Dee
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Paul Benney
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- malcolm
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- malcolm
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Simon Crunden
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- sarah housley
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Gordon
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- J Courtenay Grimwood
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Tom Davies
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Favstar Pop
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Paul McGlynn
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Cat Gee
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- LucyG
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Pucci Dellanno
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- Kathy Hofmeyr
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- David Howell
Soneone is very confused, it might be our Prime Minister, and if it is, it's possibly not confusion but malice: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Paul Grover
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/gSiGard via @libcon #fb
- salardeen
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/CSpeBKk via @libcon
- Huw Davies
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Paul Colgan
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- the settle down cafe
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- david wrench
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Woodo
Cameron says his constituents complain about shortage of council houses. But he sold them off! http://bit.ly/lg9pPT good spot @BickerRecord
- Fran
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- Sam Johnstone
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Ian Statham
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT
- Laura Intably
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Nick Brooke
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://t.co/MSs1IJD
- jailhouserock
The Case of the Missing Council Houses – http://bit.ly/ikBv7l
- Phil Donnelly-Rooney
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Sophie Scott
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Trish D
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Tom
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Tinpot
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Joe Vaughan
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://zite.to/jNfdG7 via @Ziteapp << Is anyone surprised that Cameron is a liar?
- The Gordfather
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Len Arthur
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- Bruno Bear
RT @libcon: Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? http://bit.ly/lg9pPT > As ever, Cameron perpetuates the myth, not reality
- Lois McEwan
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Jonathan Lintern
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Marjory Smith
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Christopher Gurr
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Simon
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Elly Shepherd
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Jon Slater
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Katharine S Russell
RT @jackseale:Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Zahid Raja
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Tom Ashworth
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- paul haine
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- gimpy
Cameron was born into money. Not his fault. But why does he pretend that fiscal concerns have ever mattered to him? http://is.gd/YZ83Ev
- Oliver Shykles
Is David Cameron telling porkies? Seems not to be aware there's not any council housing in his constituency http://t.co/5aBFEIK
- Dawn Foster
Cameron was born into money. Not his fault. But why does he pretend that fiscal concerns have ever mattered to him? http://is.gd/YZ83Ev
- Pen
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- malcolm
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Andy S
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Mark Clapham
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Jim Smith
RT “@jackseale: Cameron says constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/CBc3fl1
- Duck
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- puddy pad
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Alex Wintermute
Good Lord. Cameron says his constituents complain about council house allocation. His consituency has no such housing: http://t.co/2wTlAoe
- Political Scrapbook
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Peter Raymond
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Freddie Meade
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Andrew Griffiths
RT @libcon Where did the council houses come from Cam? http://t.co/dfUF0nj >> Cameron's anecdotes always have a whiff of bull****.
- Andrew Griffiths
RT @libcon Where did the council houses come from Cam? http://t.co/dfUF0nj >> Cameron's anecdotes always have a whiff of bull****.
- Jonathan Davis
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Jonathan Davis
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Hilary Burkitt
Cameron uses anecdote about "council houses" in his constituency … but they were all sold in 2001 http://bit.ly/ijaekT
- Gareth Martin
Cameron lies about his constituents: http://t.co/H3K85LJ
- cllrdarrenfower
Where did those council houses come from Mr Cameron? – LOL – http://tinyurl.com/6g2bubz
- Mark Carrigan
RT @libcon: Where did the council houses come from Cam? http://t.co/7QWQzH8
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