Staines storms aid event & looks like a prat


3:09 pm - June 9th 2011

by Sunny Hundal    


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Paul Staines’ (aka blogger Guido Fawkes) obsession with Damian McBride knows no bounds.

This morning Staines, his chum from UKIP and a space-monkey decided to ambush a joint aid event.

Fearless as ever against a gang of snarling and dangerous middle-England lefties, Staines reported:

Guido and the spaceman were escorted out of the building so we were unable to speak with Cafod’s new comms hire Damian McBride. Nor could we hear Andrew Mitchell boast how much hard-earned taxpayers’ cash he is exporting to corrupt Mercedes-driving aid recipients.

However, people at the event told Liberal Conspiracy that P. Staines had to be asked to leave after he got aggressive* and started shouting at a Ghanian woman who wanted to explain why aid was important.

P Staines of course wasn’t interested. Someone did catch a flattering picture of him though.

A source told us:

Not one to waste much time on poverty, Guido looking immaculately smug pushed his way through pensioners and an African woman who made the mistake of trying to engage him in rational discussion.

Staines even got some basic facts wrong. He claims the aim of the rally – called ‘Teatime For Change’ – was to demand the aid budget be increased from 0.7% to 1%. Untrue.

Our source added:

Once inside the hall, Guido positioned his weird looking ‘indian space man’ in front the gentle old folk. The stage seemed set for some epic showdown of ‘ good common sense’ against, against…. what exactly Guido? A group of pensioners showing the political establishment that they care about others less fortunate than themselves. Well done. Bravo, what a hero. Shame the mission failed to launch.

Maybe someone could put P Stained into a monkey-suit and send him into outer space? I’d chip in for that.

* I’ve changed the word ‘abusive’ to ‘aggressive’ to clear some confusion. Staines did not get physically abusive at any time. However, two witnesses tell us they felt he was being verbally aggressive.

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Update: @ElliotFolan has photo-shopped the pic to create a blank placard. Use it and abuse it!

We already have entries for a caption competition!

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


“Maybe someone could put P Stained into a monkey-suit and send him into outer space? I’d chip in for that.”

I would sell all my organs to achieve this.

Christ he’s an idiot. There are some small minded selfish people on this planet, but Paul Staines takes the biscuit.

I presume the bag contains a few bottles of lunch to help him unwind after all the excitement.

4. Bairy Hollocks

Staines is fundamentally a bit of a cunt, as is that lackey who writes half the blog for him nowadays.

He does have a point though, why are we borrowing money to give to a government which can afford its own space programme.

6. StainedPaul

Was he drunk?

7. Pauline Stained

I’m fundamentally a bit of a cunt. I also take orders for people who wish to sell organs to pay for me to dress up as a monkey. I find my anger drives me. My anger at decency. My website, with its flashing brand of adverts that appear like a 70s disco ball restricting any readers from ever understanding the drivel of drip drop Tory propaganda I spout, makes me angry.

I’m fundamentally a bit of a cunt.

My honest position is that it makes me sick to think any of my tax money goes to any other human being on the planet.

I’m fundamentally a bit of a cunt.

@6, not yet.

As the late Gerald Wiley might have observed, after leaving the meeting, he then went to the rub-a-dub, where he became Elephant’s Trunk and Mozart.

Westminster Arms, Mr S?

Are the Tory vermin simply incapable of restraining the worst of their fuckwits? The thing is, although normal people cringe at this cunt, there are millions of voters out there those cheers at this type of thing. They despise aid every bit as he does, but are either too cowardly, or too astute to do this type of thing, themselves.

So here’s to the permanently furious, completely Right Winger wit h a bee in his bonnet and far too booze in his belly. Here’s to every idiot that thinks gate crashing an event amounts to victory.

If ever anyone wondered whether or Aid is a good thing or not, remember these are the level of the people who oppose it.

10. Mr S. Pill

Now I know it’s unfair to mock someone because of their appearance an’ all but…

@10

Well, yes, but then he is slowly turning into Frank Carson, isn’t he?

12. Chaise Guevara

“Now I know it’s unfair to mock someone because of their appearance an’ all but”

No need! Mock him for being a total pillock instead.

I don’t think it is the government’s job to be generous on our behalf, particularly when it is in debt itself. I give what I feel I can to causes in the developing world.

@11

Unity, Frank Carson is a genuinely funny man. You laugh *with* him.

Staines, OTOH …

15. Chaise Guevara

@ 13 Nick

“I give what I feel I can to causes in the developing world.”

But obviously you and me and everyone else together doesn’t give enough, because many people are still over there dying from things that cost less than £100 to cure. Helping people is about what they need, not what you want to give.

“Helping people is about what they need, not what you want to give.”

What most need is good government, what we want to give is money ’cause it’s easy and makes us feel good.

Nick @ 13

Yes and the best place to demonstrate your belef? At a tea time dinner for OAP dressed as a spaceman?

“Maybe someone could put P Stained into a monkey-suit and send him into outer space?”

Cruelty to dumb animals, in spite of all those high pretensions to civilization which we boast, is, it is to be feared, one of the crying sins of this nation…

(I’d do it anyway.)

19. Ken Clarb

I would like to attack him with a rusty prong!!! He would be so ill!!! I would hurt him!!!

20. Ken Clarb

AND THEN!!!!!! I would take his skin and wear it as a suit and try to give ian duncan smith a hug!!!!!

21. Chaise Guevara

@16 sl

“What most need is good government, what we want to give is money ’cause it’s easy and makes us feel good.”

I’m open to rejection of specific aid proposals on the basis that they won’t work. It’s the “I’m all right, Jack” attitude that annoys me.

22. Ken Clarb

AND THEN!!! I WOULD GET IAN DUNCAN SMITHS TORSO AND USE IT TO MAKE A GREAT FLOATING ISLAND!!! AND THEN I WOULD DEPORT POEPE< TO IT!!!!

23. Rowan Davies

@16 – the ‘good government’ point is a fair one, but it’s a mistake to think that DFID and the aid organisations that distribute its funds don’t recognise this and try to work towards it. The problem is, it’s pretty much impossible to tackle governance independently of other development problems. You need a literate, healthy, non-dependent population: one that’s not threatened by armed conflict and other forms of violence, or by food insecurity, or by the chronic health problems (including cognitive problems) that come with malnutrition. Development aid (at its best, and nobody claims it’s perfect) works to alleviate these things.

The anti-aid mob are increasingly looking ridiculous and isolated, and Paul Staines has so just capped it with this. The Dail Fail lost the journalistic plot/respect on recent ‘stories’/attempts to whip up troll/reader hysteria (at least the Telegraph, whilst wrong, explains its position and mostly gets facts right. Right wing Tory MPs like Philip Davies and Peter Bone are just making the Conservative brand toxic again. And Liam Fox showed again why, with his leaked letter, he is far more disdained than gaff-prone Cabinet members (although Lansley’s giving him a run on that). It’s great to see Conservative leadership on the aid volume issue, all the major parties agreed and the aid charities and development movement showing their strength in numbers and argument. The development lobby should never be underestimated nor how huge their supporter base is.

Of all the myriad offences to taste and common decency of which Paul Staines is guilty and the most imaginative thing 3 of 4 of your posters have to say is hahahhah him fat.

Days like this make me despair that the right wing meme of a paucity of imagination on the left is true.

I think Guido’s social stock (Q value) reduced by between 3-5% by this. I think Mr Staines concept of questioning Indian’s national priorities is a valid, I think his method may have been appropriate in some settings however this does not seem to me to be such a setting. It is a pity I can see his good intent I hope Mr Staines enjoys a period of reflection and perhaps I will enjoy/prefer his deliveries…

27. Luis Enrique

I know you object to his message, but it’s a bit rich to object to his technique … how would you respond had he staged an impromptu comedy club or given them an early morning wake up call?

28. Ken Clarb

AND THEN THE TWO F US WOULD BE STUCK IN A METAL BOX FILLED OF SPIKES AND HE WOULD TRY T EAT ME BUT WOULD CHOCK!!!!

29. Boudicca

Cafod. One more quasi-political ‘charity’ which won’t be getting a penny out of me.

30. paul ilc

India is a country I love and which I’ve visited several times; but, although there is still much poverty there, India does not need aid and is capable of looking after its poor itself when it has a space programme and nuclear weapons. Quite simply, there are more worthy recipients, particularly when the aid we give has to be borrowed. And, as a general principle, I am sceptical about government-to-government aid – far better to let the charities/NGOs try to by-pass corrupt officials where possible.

31. Luis Enrique

paul

it’s a tricky one – you might think India can look after its own poor, but it doesn’t

see for example

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10609407

India is where most of the world’s poor live

32. paul ilc

Perahps, LE, though talk of “multidimensional” poverty tends to make me sceptical. India may be were most of the world’s poor live, but it is also a functioning democracy whose people should insist that their rulers have other priorities than spending money on prestige projects like space programmes. (Compare and contrast Sri Lanka, which has a significantly higher gdp per capita than India.)

Meanwhile, there is undoubtedly terrible poverty in Africa – and many of the people live in undemocratic regimes and so are unable to remove their corrupt and incompetent rulers through the ballot box. That said, I recently returned from Botswana, which an inspiring example of a developing country – low corruption, constitutional government, increasing investment in infrastructure – and a happy, welcoming population.

Whatever Richard Murphy might believe, the number of people living on a dollar a day is shrinking steadily as capitalism and free(er) markets spread wealth around the globe.

Take a good long look at this fat, piece of shit Lib Dems. These are the kind of scum you have gone into govt with.

Staines is not so scared to show his fat face these days. Unlike his appearance on Newsnight a few years ago when he insisted on a priceless disguise.

He looks like that other fat, right wing tosser Littlejohn.

Paul, you’re right. I would be happy to increase our overseas aid and give it all to Botswana. It would do much more good there than being wasted elsewhere.

35. Dick the Prick

All good fun – not sure the spaceman would pass the medical but good sport for looking like a silver gimp.

Haven’t private Eye been saying that DfID has been bollox for at least 6 years? With Mitchell, Hague & Fox running international activity it hardly matters what the left think.

‘But obviously you and me and everyone else together doesn’t give enough, because many people are still over there dying from things that cost less than £100 to cure. Helping people is about what they need, not what you want to give.’

Nah, its because they are subject to exploitation and predation by their criminal and corrupt governments. All the money in the world isnt going to solve their problems, especially when it can be creamed off and diverted by the powerful in the third world. In fact, aid can contribute to keeping the bandits in power. Which is not to say that all aid is wasted, only that it alone will not resovle the problems you seek to. Given these realistic assumptions, i prefer to choose how I help the least well off rather than david cameron and his cronies.

37. Chaise Guevara

@ 36 Nick

That’s reasonable. I mistook your point, sorry.

I think the guy in spacesuit is the one and only Old Holborn. Outed at last. Looks like he’s spent too much time in pub vaults.

Why does Staines look like a Belsen prison guard?

All the money in the world isnt going to solve their problems, especially when it can be creamed off and diverted by the powerful in the third world.

You want to stop third world countries getting away with corruption?

Then stop tax evasion and close down tax havens? Its western businessmen and havens that facilitate that corruption.

41. Rowan Davies

Yes, Sunny’s point (@40) about tax evasion and avoidance is very important. Christian Aid’s report from a couple of years ago showed that it’s a much bigger problem, in terms of egress of resources from poor countries, than corruption within countries. This isn’t to say that in-country corruption isn’t significant – it is, and in private most aid organisations will admit that they have to do a certain amount of palm-greasing to be able to operate at all in some countries. But, as I said above, how do you get to a well-informed, powerful general populace without tackling multi-dimensional factors?

@35 – unless I’ve missed something, the Eye doesn’t have an ongoing problem with DFID; it has (brilliantly) exposed corruption related to one development quango, which has now been axed AFAIK.

@32 and others; India is a real moral conundrum I think. Of course its gvt should focus on poverty-reduction; but it doesn’t. So if you withdraw international aid, you’re just complicit in allowing millions of people to sink further into desperate circumstances. You might hope that that would precipitate a pro-poor revolution in India – but that’s just a hope, not a necessary outcome.

A while back Paul Staines was on the Daily Politics – I was watching the #bbcdp hash tag and these words popped up:

‘Is that Paul Staines???? I wouldn’t know which end to feed’.

I’ve been roffling ever since.

43. Dick the Prick

@41 – nope, it’s still going. CDC is completely opaque; goodnight Vienna. How we have the nerve to criticize FIFA is beyond me. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Ho hum.

I know you object to his message, but it’s a bit rich to object to his technique … how would you respond had he staged an impromptu comedy club or given them an early morning wake up call?

Exactly Luis Enrique, that’s what I thought. I don’t read this Guido person so don’t know that much about him, but some of the comments about him here are pretty nasty.
It’s shameful to mock the way he looks.

45. Charlieman

@44. damon: “I don’t read this Guido person so don’t know that much about him, but some of the comments about him here are pretty nasty.
It’s shameful to mock the way he looks.”

That’s fair comment because it shouldn’t be about how Staines looks or about his personal life. It should be about what he does in public life and, most importantly, who pulls the strings.

Staines is a preposterously self important individual for one whose political education was acting as bag carrier for David Hart, then as copy monkey at right wing “briefing papers” delivering the message of western intelligence services. I have no doubt that he has sources in mainstream UK politics and journalism. And I am sure that he will recite any old shite, irrespective of source, if he thinks that it suits his agenda.

46. Charlieman

@31. Luis Enrique: “India is where most of the world’s poor live”

Doesn’t China still win?

Pretend Concerned troll at 44.

#5

I have numerous criticisms of aid as an approach to development (remittances from recent migrants tend to be a much better way of getting money to people who will spend it well in impoverished regions, so probably better to just stop spending money on immigration detention and deportation), however:

What makes you think that all aid goes directly to governments?

Isn’t it possible that a government (in your view, and possibly mine) spends money unwisely on space programmes at the same time as ignoring its citizens in impoverished regions who DfID could help by giving money to indigenous development organisations through umbrella groups?

Do you honestly think that if DfiD stopped giving money to help these people that their government would stop spending money on space programmes and spend it on helping them instead? If so, are you naive, or just stupid?

Good thing Guido isn’t a black poof, eh?

50. Rowan Davies

@41 – sorry, yes you’re right, it’s still going. But is under review and abolition remains an option. (Not the same thing as actually being abolished though.)

Oh dear are all yoru lefty feathers a little ruffled. We do not need to be giving money to India while our own population are suffering from austerity. You spiteful lefties really are the limit. Then you wonder why the electorate tossed your totally last century arses out of the HoC last year.

Get with the programme throbbers,

52. Dick the Prick

I’ve been banging about on Guido for about 4 years now and I shit you not, there is nothing more amusing than his PMQs Live Blog – it’s been one of the most accurate barrometres of public opinion for a while; no censorship, just abuse. Pure comedy.

It’s quite funny that Guido got booted out but I can understand there being problems with people hiring Damien McBride. Charley Wheelen running the Unions and Campbell being the largest donor does seem a dodgy accounting function Labour has going.

53. Rowan Davies

@48 – migration being one of the oldest and best ways out of poverty, yes. But I think we can file that under ‘things that will never happen’, unfortunately.

#53

Maybe, and even if the government were to miraculously adopt my suggested policy wholesale, it wouldn’t be a solution on its own. (That said, while I wouldn’t go so far to argue that aid should be lowered, I do think the creation of horizontal links quite apart from what the state is doing is far more important.) But I’m not going to stop making the point, or using it to provoke racists to fury ;p

Indeed mr pee staines looks and acts like a mong, HOWEVER using UK taxpayers money to bankroll the space programs and military expansion of various countries not only sucks, but it sucks hard. e.g. £250M to Pakistan, who spend £1B on chinese subs.

Various people blinded by naive good intentions here.

Damon @ 44

It’s shameful to mock the way he looks.

Yeah, about that? If you had read his stuff you would have noticed that he mocks appearances all the time, he had a go a Gordon Brown’s fake smile in the most appalling manner and attacked him for having a false eye. This ‘person’ has had the effrontery to attack people based on every aspects of their lives, including mental health issues.

And so it turns out he looks like a bag of shite tied in the middle? Oh, the fucking irony!!! No-one is mocking him because how he looks, we are mocking him because he uses how everyone he targets looks from a position of anonymity. Now that anonymity has been well and truly broken BY HIS OWN ACTIONS and guess what? He looks the type of guy who you would expect sleeps in a single bed and visits Amsterdam and Thailand a lot. No wonder he hates the welfare state so much, eh?

If a picture paints athousand words then Staines is a A sad, joyless person who takes delight for other people’s misery, it does exactly what it says on the tin.

A man whose real name is even funnier than his pseudonym. Paul Staines? Yes, probably every night, if these pictures are anything to go by.

I had a great day out thanks. After all, think of all the schools, hospitals, public sector workers etc that the £16 BILLION we send abroad as “aid” every year could buy.

You see, Sunny, when Hague and Cameron send £16 Billion of taxpayers money abroad every year, they expect to see it back again. In arms deals or “technology transfers”. And of course the profits from those deals go to er…. corporate shareholders. Nothing back to the taxpayer from which it was extracted, nothing back to society.

You really have to try and understand that Libertarians are not Tories. This one certainly isn’t anyway. I don’t want Indians reliant on hand outs from arms companies, which is all “foreign aid” is. See how aid works?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6707369.stm “Blair role in SA arms contract ”

http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/tanzania-radar-deal-a-problem-for-blair/ “The UK sold a “useless“ air traffic control system to Tanzania in 2001 in a “scandalous“ and “squalid“ deal, the House of Commons has been told.”

As always, a pleasure

“Various people blinded by naive good intentions here.”

So why does Staines not march on number 10 then?

Note to trolls, we have a Conservative govt now.

59. flyingrodent

Hey, maybe that’s true Holborn. You have to admit though, you do look like a bit of a tit in that get-up.

How come it was you in the gimp suit rather than your pal Paul, if you don’t mind me asking?

58. “So why does Staines not march on number 10 then?”

Probably hoping his odds will tighten next time they need a media adviser, 200/1 he was last time.

To be fair though he can be highly critical of the Tories when he smells blood, unlike all the very uncritical on-message left-wing blogs.

61. SomethingAnonymous

“an African woman” <-right, so because one person from a minority stood up to him, everything he said must have been wrong!

As for saying it was harmless old ladies vs strawman staines (as he is represented here) – the website of Tea Time for Change shows that it is not a charity, this wasn't old ladies selling cakes to help out the poor. This is a professional looking "lobby for international development" with obvious financial backing from the big charities, who all receive millions from the tax man.

How about letting people donate to charities on their own accord, do bake sales and so on to raise money if they want to give it to charity. Sending money abroad in "development aid" has time and again failed to achieve results, maybe reading Dambisa Moyo's book "Dead Aid" to get an idea.

Also, grow up.

62. Far right far out

Never mind mocking the way he looks, should you really be revelling in the possibl drunken antics of someone who appears to be in the throes of some kind of breakdown ? His recent antics are a cry for help from someone who has lost all credibility and is flailing around trying to drum up publicity in a manner not unlike charlie sheen.

An exchange between Old Holborn and Akvavitix about this stunt on Twitter.

“Happy for £16 billion of your taxes to go to UK arms dealers? Well?”

“Actually, yes, rather that than fucking Oxfam.”

Need I say more?

“Probably hoping his odds will tighten next time they need a media adviser, 200/1 he was last time.”

Oh right, so he has zero integrity then. All his big talk about principles amounts to jack shit.

Righties always go bat shit insane if brown people are getting sweeties. Arms dealers….no problem.

So what IS you bloody aim then, if it isn’t to increase the amount of money that is stolen from my labour?

66. flyingrodent

You know, if these sociopaths were really so upset about the government giving money away to other countries to give back to UK-based arms dealers, you’d think they’d target the Tories themselves. They are, after all, the government of the United Kingdom. Or failing that, they could target the arms dealers.

Instead, they chose to get gimped up and hassle a bunch of do-gooders at Cafod. That’s prioritisation for you.

Well. I suppose they’re less likely to bump into their old public school buddies at the Cafod gig than they are if they tried this at the HQs of the Tory Party or BAE Systems.

I target the Tories every single day. If you think Libertarians want anything to do with the monopoly of corporations then you don’t understand politics.

Libertarians want freedom from Corporations, the state, the collective and the mafia.

Which is why the left (and the right) simply cannot grasp the concept. We are not interested in “money” or “power”. We are only interested in the freedom to live our lives as we choose, peacefully, and without adversely affecting the lives of others.

Which naturally makes us the enemies of all politicians, who want to run everything, for our “benefit”.

So. Still demand that those on minimum wage in this country should pay for the nuclear arms and space programmes of a country that has more billionaires than we do?

68. flyingrodent

We are not interested in “money” or “power”.

I love that, “We”. Like, there’s a crack team of libertarian ninja assassins ready to strike at a moment’s notice or something, rather than a tiny, fractious rabble who can just about agree on who has to wear the gimp outfit and bugger all else.

69. SomethingAnonymous

Um, flying rodent:

we/w?/Pronoun
1. Used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered together: “shall we have a drink?”.
2. Used to refer to the speaker together with other people regarded in the same category: “we teachers”

No ninjas in that.

I love the inverted commas. I guess you can afford to believe “money” is fictitious if you have it.

71. SomethingAnonymous

And apparently liberal conspiracy needs to add more characters/languages, can’t do macrons.

>.>

So, returning to the point, what about the aid being given to a country that is spending so much on nuclear weapons and a space programme?
Don’t people here need the aid?

How does your comments policy’s statements of:
“Abusive, sarcastic or silly comments may be deleted.”
and
“We have a tight comments policy aimed at fostering constructive debate.”
tally with your sequence of personalised mocking doctored photos of Mr Staines?
Fair enough, you may dislike him personally; you may have some personal reasons why you dislike the aid to India being challenged, but surely allowing these photos and comments is in breach of your policy, and tantamount to online bullying and perhaps, to some, hate speech?

“hate speech”?! haha!

awesome. you’re right, we do have rules. But what’s the point of rules if you can’t break them occasionally for someone as joyous as Staines? If you don’t like it, take it up with the editor.

Is it not strange how concerned some people get about minimum wage workers contributing to overseas aid as taxpayers when the same people never show much interest in minimum wage workers at any other time. Maybe the solution then is to not use tax and just take it off rich people in this country to finance the aid budget.

The nuclear weapons and space projects is a rubbish point. Do the recipients of the aid own nuclear weapons? Are they involved in space projects? Unless we are just handing over the money to governments the point is not valid.

Most development aid in the past was a waste of money that financed corrupt regimes and probably did more harm than good. However, it is pretty difficult to argue that a village that receives a direct tangible benefit of a clean water supply or a new school has had aid money wasted on them. So aid that directly builds infrastructure and sets up things like micro lending will do more good than just handing over money to governments.

Refreshing to see sanctimoniousness being used as political cover by the right for a change. Next stop, comparing the opposition to mass murderers…

Regardless of the fact that Guido is a man of little merit, this is one of the worst blog articles I’ve ever read. Which is saying
something.

@ Sunny: “You want to stop third world countries getting away with corruption?

Then stop tax evasion and close down tax havens? Its western businessmen and havens that facilitate that corruption.”

Do you bother to read what you’ve written before hitting post or have you somehow formed the belief that corruption in the 3rd world would be negligible but for tax evasion and tax havens? “Western businessmen” have, as with most sectors of the population, done many reprehensible things, so why not attack them for something they have actually done?

79. So Much For Subtlety

15. Chaise Guevara – “But obviously you and me and everyone else together doesn’t give enough, because many people are still over there dying from things that cost less than £100 to cure. Helping people is about what they need, not what you want to give.”

That is not obvious to me. You assume, with some degree of arrogance, that the solution to this problem lies in the hand of the wealthy, White, North. It does not. No matter how much we give, the solution has to come from economic growth and better government in the South. It is beyond our ability to give.

Unless, of course, we re-imposed colonial rule. That is something we don’t want to give but arguably they need. Let’s agree not to do that.

“You really have to try and understand that Libertarians are not Tories.”

A libertarian is basically a tory on a driving ban.

81. flyingrodent

A libertarian is basically a tory on a driving ban.

That’s being over-generous.

To be fair, Old Holborn definitely isn’t a Tory – he’s a far wackier beast than that – and he was making some very good points about corrupt arms deals at 67, and I gave him short shrift on it. The government/arms dealer links he’s talking about are a bloody scandal. Mark Thomas has been talking about this for years – seek out his book on the issue, it’s very good.

Of course, Thomas directs his ire at deserving targets like arms companies and the government, rather than dressing up like a tit and hassling international aid organisations. Say what you like about Cafod, but it isn’t them who have filled much of the world with automatic weapons.

You may see Guido arsing around outside BAE Systems in the near future, but I doubt it. I’ve kept an eye on libertarian blogs for years – love a nutter, me – and can confirm that kickbacks for arms dealers isn’t exactly a top priority for them.

Now, when it comes to charities – woah, hold ‘em back! It’s like trying to restrain Scrappy Doo. Feel free to draw your own conclusions from that.

The question still needs to be answered, India is currently spending over a Trillion USD on infrastructure projects.

Why are we paying for their poor when they cannot be bothered to do so themselves?

OH et al @ 67

So. Still demand that those on minimum wage in this country should pay for the nuclear arms and space programmes of a country that has more billionaires than we do?

So, why aren’t you at the American embassy in your gimp suit? In fact, while you are at it, why aren’t you campaigning for our nuclear arms to be scrapped and THAT money spent on the poor?

Steve @ 82

Why are we paying for their poor

The reason is…

cannot be bothered to do so themselves?

Oh, wait, you worked it out for yourself. Well done, mate.

85. Chaise Guevara

@ 79 SMFS

“That is not obvious to me. You assume, with some degree of arrogance, that the solution to this problem lies in the hand of the wealthy, White, North. It does not.”

Arrogance? I would have thought assuming the wealthy are more empowered than the dirt-poor wasn’t so much arrogance as common fucking sense. Still, never let logic get in the way of a personal attack, eh?

And no, I don’t think it lies in the hands of the white or the North past the extent that those groups happen to be relatively wealthy on average. Japan and Australia can help out too. Your straw man appears to be on fire.

“No matter how much we give, the solution has to come from economic growth and better government in the South. It is beyond our ability to give.”

Again, you seem to be suffering from an inability to consider any solution except “all” or “nothing”. No, we cannot fix failed states by dumping a few billion dollars on them. However, there are places where people die from diseases that are not only treatable but treatably cheaply by our standard. We CAN do something about that. Your fatalism is an excuse: “I can’t achieve perfection so I won’t try at all. Coincidentally, this saves me money”.

“Unless, of course, we re-imposed colonial rule. That is something we don’t want to give but arguably they need. Let’s agree not to do that.”

Heh. You straw man me as racist then write this, which BEGS to be straw manned as racist. I won’t do that, though, because unlike you I’m interested in a sensible discussion, not childish and illogical point-scoring. Yes, colonial rule has the potential to help and no, we still shouldn’t do it.

Bucketloads of personal bile and abuse here that simply detracts from the reasonable (although I don’t agree with it) argument.

Particularly when the Comments policy claims to be so stringent about abusive, sarcastic or silly comments (silly – love it!)

The shriller the left sounds the more its message is ridiculed.

But I broadly agree with Guido (on this one anyway), the government should not borrow in order to donate to a regime that already has money to spend on space programmes and nuclear weapons. Give practical help to those in real need, not monetary help to rich governments.

“We believe in free speech but not your right to abuse our space”.

(Taken from I?n?d?i?a?n? ?S?p?a?c?e? ?R?e?s?e?a?r?c?h? ?O?r?g?a?n?i?s?a?t?i?o?n? liberalconspiracy.org’s T’s & C’s).

88. Greg Tingey

That’s right – attack the person, not the message.

Like why are we giving aid to a country with things we have not got, like aircraft carriers and a space programme?

Or why should anyone touch anything associated witt the catholic church?

89. Andrew Hunt

So can YOU explain why the gov’t is giving british taxpayers money to India when India itself is giving money to China and can also afford to pay for a space agency and loads of nuclear weapons?

Old Holborn @67:

Are you sure you’re not Lazarus Long on one of his time trips again? Your essential summary of libertarianism given here is a more or less exact echo of one of Heinlein’s… And all the better for it, I have a lot more patience with him than I do with Rand et al.

Jim @83 no one is sending us aid and we already have a welfare system that prevents the true poverty that India has.

Falco @ 78:

Do you bother to read what you’ve written before hitting post or have you somehow formed the belief that corruption in the 3rd world would be negligible but for tax evasion and tax havens?

Well, possibly not but it would certainly be lessened if Western businesses stopped perpetrating it. Jack Straw stepped in with diplomatic threats to prevent an internal, independent and judicial inquiry into corruption within the Ghanaian government, because he was asked to by the UK corporation responsible for said corruption. I read it in the Eye, not sure where it is on-line. Craig Murray will almost certainly have something.

Equally egregiously, when the Ghanaian authorities catch some bastard smuggling cocaine from Nigeria to Britain via Accra (because UK customs are more alert to incoming flights from Lagos) the British step in to free the smugglers… etc, etc.

I happen to have grown up in Ghana, so that’s what I know: but I’m pretty sure that if you asked someone from the Philippines or Mexico or Kazakhstan they’d be able to describe similar patterns.

So, why *are* you demanding people on minimum wage here fund a nation that has a £1 billion a year space program and more nuclear weapons than us?

I think he looks rather like BIFFO (remember him?) in that second photo.

But, in line with about 20 other commenters, why are we giving aid to a government that could cancel a space programme and use its own funds for the purpose?

95. Chaise Guevara

“So, why *are* you demanding people on minimum wage here fund a nation that has a £1 billion a year space program and more nuclear weapons than us?”

Because you can’t eat your government’s space program. And if the Indian government won’t do its job and look after its people, someone else has to. Blaming the Indian government’s shitty priorities is fair, but it’s a poor excuse for walking by on the other side.

96. Richard W

Why did these countries offer aid to the richest large country in the world including Afghanistan? A country that alone spends 50% of the global military budget. Because people are not their government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

“Or why should anyone touch anything associated witt the catholic church?”

One might not agree with Papa Razzi’s teachings, but you have to admit that the Catholic Church puts its money where its mouth is and actually sends people to the poorest parts of the world to deliver aid – day in, day out.

I don’t recall ever seeing the likes of the British Humanist Association or the National Secular Society getting their hands dirty doing anything like that.

Well done Liberal Conspiracy for getting Old Holborn to talk about politics seriously (I use the word loosely, of course), instead of just telling shit jokes.

“74. Sunny Hundal
“hate speech”?! haha!

awesome. you’re right, we do have rules. But what’s the point of rules if you can’t break them occasionally for someone as joyous as Staines? If you don’t like it, take it up with the editor.”

That comes across as a disingenuous reply.

Hate speech, yes, I’m sure you don’t need it explaining – inciting extreme abuse and aggression towards a person on the basis of how they look or what they are, rather than engaging in cogent debate and deconstruction of their argument.
As I am with you; whereas your response is to mock in order to undermine.

Does hate speech amuse you? (This is not said via a Joe Pesci impersonation).

The point of rules, as you again probably know, is for consistency and fairness, and ultimately quality of debate.
One’s personal feelings about it are not the point, the point is that you are using a platform that has conditions attached, and you are appearing to break those conditions to suit a personal agenda of inciting hatred towards a person.
This is an abuse of your privilege of access to an audience via this platform.

You are an adult, probably reasonably pleasant and well-educated in person; you should be more than able to edit yourself without requiring people to report you.

I mean, do you think it adds to the credibility of yourself and this site to do this?

“Is it not strange how concerned some people get about minimum wage workers contributing to overseas aid as taxpayers when the same people never show much interest in minimum wage workers at any other time.”

Oh its standard policy for right wing conservatives to hide behind the poor when it suits them. ” The Countryside alliance did it all the time when it was defending fox hunting. “the poor country worker will lose his job Of course we all know that the rich land owners could not give a shit about their workers, and replaced them with tractors as soon as they could.

The rich tax payers alliance always hides behind the poor when in it wants tax cuts for their rich backers. Whenever you hear the rich right wing saying they fear for the poor, watch out for the con.

@98 Well done Liberal Conspiracy for getting Old Holborn to talk about politics seriously (I use the word loosely, of course), instead of just telling shit jokes.

Now tell me I and my politics are wrong. You may as well have demanded that the poor of South Africa desperately needed help whilst handing Botha millions in aid. As Thatcher and the US did (and Oxfam)

See how Libertarians work yet? Of course not.

“See how Libertarians work yet?”

“Both England and America enjoyed their greatest freedom under limited franchises; and both have been, or are being, ruined by systems that give almost absolute power to whoever can lie most convincingly to the masses. Salvation lies in hoping that economic growth can reproduce the middle class majorities that existed before democracy, or in a direct limitation of democracy itself.”

Can’t say I do.

103. So Much For Subtlety

85. Chaise Guevara – “Arrogance? I would have thought assuming the wealthy are more empowered than the dirt-poor wasn’t so much arrogance as common fucking sense. Still, never let logic get in the way of a personal attack, eh?”

It wasn’t a personal attack. It went out of its way not to be a personal attack. Sure, in normal circumstances wealthy people are more empowered than poor ones. But not in these circumstances. We can make a token effort that may well make the situation worse, but we can’t actually do much about the problems of the Third World. The solution to those lies with the poor of the Third World some of the time and most of the time with their wealthy rulers.

“And no, I don’t think it lies in the hands of the white or the North past the extent that those groups happen to be relatively wealthy on average. Japan and Australia can help out too. Your straw man appears to be on fire.”

Australia is not a majority White country? The question is to what extent. Yes, the North can do great things like abolish small pox. But if China and India are becoming wealthy now and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, it is not because of what we did. It is because of their governments getting out of the way. No amount of aid could *ever* substitute for economic reforms in those two countries. Africa is growing nicely now. Again not because of a thing we have done but because their governments accepted the IMF’s remedies. There is no strawman here at all.

“Again, you seem to be suffering from an inability to consider any solution except “all” or “nothing”. No, we cannot fix failed states by dumping a few billion dollars on them. However, there are places where people die from diseases that are not only treatable but treatably cheaply by our standard. We CAN do something about that. Your fatalism is an excuse: “I can’t achieve perfection so I won’t try at all. Coincidentally, this saves me money”.”

No I don’t. I am simply realistic. I am glad to see that we agree that we cannot fix failed states. There are certainly many places where people die of entirely preventable diseases. A great example being oral hydration salts that could save tens of millions of Third World babies. Dirt cheap. But still beyond our ability to distribute unless the local governments are willing to get out of the way and let us. We CAN’T do much about that. We certainly cannot provide any long term solution. This is not an excuse. It is realism. Just try to explain how you intend to distribute those salts in a country where bribes are routinely demanded for everything from unloading shipping containers to governments permits to driving on the road. Keeping in mind that paying such bribes is not only illegal in the UK but also strongly condemned all over Britain but especially here at LC.

“Heh. You straw man me as racist then write this, which BEGS to be straw manned as racist. I won’t do that, though, because unlike you I’m interested in a sensible discussion, not childish and illogical point-scoring. Yes, colonial rule has the potential to help and no, we still shouldn’t do it.”

I did not strawman you, if that can be used in such a way, and certainly not as a racist. I don’t think you’re arrogant because you’re White, if indeed you are, but because you are from the First World and have no idea what goes on in the Third World. It does beg to be called racist. This is LC after all. Even though it is not in a factual sense, it probably is in a political one. It is also true – it could help and we should not do it. So not all help we can give we should give. Even if it would cost us a lot of money and do good for a lot of people.

104. Chaise Guevara

@ 103 SMFS

“It wasn’t a personal attack. It went out of its way not to be a personal attack.”

OK, principle of charity then – if you say it wasn’t intended as such I withdraw the complaint.

“Sure, in normal circumstances wealthy people are more empowered than poor ones. But not in these circumstances. We can make a token effort that may well make the situation worse, but we can’t actually do much about the problems of the Third World.”

We can’t fix them, but we can at least slap a bandage on in some places. You’re entirely right to say it’s not in our power to bring Freedom and Justice and other nouns that the Victorians liked to capitalise to failed states. We can, however, deliver medicines, sanitise wells and so on.

“The solution to those lies with the poor of the Third World some of the time and most of the time with their wealthy rulers.”

Problem being that the poor have few resources and often would be put at huge personal danger by trying to enact the solution, while the rulers have every reason to maintain the status quo. We, the rich and safe, should at least HELP (I wish I could remember how to do italics so it didn’t look like I was shouting).

“Australia is not a majority White country?”

I was using Japan to provide a non-white example and Australia to provide a southern example.

“The question is to what extent. Yes, the North can do great things like abolish small pox. But if China and India are becoming wealthy now and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, it is not because of what we did. It is because of their governments getting out of the way. No amount of aid could *ever* substitute for economic reforms in those two countries. Africa is growing nicely now. Again not because of a thing we have done but because their governments accepted the IMF’s remedies. There is no strawman here at all.”

Again, agreed. I’m not saying that Britain or, gods help us, the IMF giving money to callous leaders will ever fix the problem. But again, this seems to be a case of “we can’t completely solve the problem so we shouldn’t help at all”.

The straw man was you saying that I think the white northern hemisphere is exclusively responsible for dealing with this stuff. I never said that, because I don’t.

“No I don’t. I am simply realistic. [...cut to avoid this getting ridiculously long...] We certainly cannot provide any long term solution. This is not an excuse. It is realism.”

Where it’s not possible to distribute the goods, then fine, it’s a waste of effort to try. But you’re listing worst-case scenarios: there are places where we can achieve these things. Large parts of Africa, for example. It doesn’t address the root problem, but it keeps people alive.

As for those bribes you mentioned (I now realise I cut this in the quote), I don’t know about LC, but I’m all for paying bribe money if the net result is increased human wellbeing.

“I did not strawman you, if that can be used in such a way, and certainly not as a racist.”

Fair enough, I’ll take your word about your intentions.

“I don’t think you’re arrogant because you’re White, if indeed you are, but because you are from the First World and have no idea what goes on in the Third World.”

The list of things I know about the third world is a lot shorter than the list of things I don’t know. But I do know that we can and do help people via aid at times.

“It does beg to be called racist. This is LC after all. Even though it is not in a factual sense, it probably is in a political one.”

Actually, I’ll be more generous than you here: it’s NOT racist and anyone trying to raise the political over the factual can fuck off for being a disingenuous, irrational point-scorer. I admit I was tempted to say something like “Oh, third world countries are fine if they’re led by white officers, are they?” when I first read what you said. Then I realised that my life’s ambition was not to be a stupid prick.

“It is also true – it could help and we should not do it. So not all help we can give we should give. Even if it would cost us a lot of money and do good for a lot of people.”

Agreed. Humanitarian intervention is tricky as hell. I think there’s room for it, we shouldn’t dismiss it out of hand, but it goes wrong so easily, often from the beginning.

And even though nobody agreed with each other in any way at all, they all lived happily ever after… apart from sally… THE END

“See how Libertarians work yet? Of course not”

(Right) libertarians don’t work, they get an allowance from mummy and daddy.

“Which is why the left (and the right) simply cannot grasp the concept. We are not interested in “money” or “power”. We are only interested in the freedom to live our lives as we choose, peacefully, and without adversely affecting the lives of others”.

How odd. Then why do you lot talk about money all the time? Why is it you see money as a means to ‘liberty’? Your libertarianism is not only paradoxical, it’s fatally flawed.

If you’re against “debt”, then why haven’t you burned your banknotes or chopped up your credit cards?

@107

I have. I do not even have a bank account. I refuse to do business with banks in the same way I refuse to do business with the State. I do not “consume” from corporations nor feast on “public services” whilst demanding others pay my bills.

Another thing that I find odd, even dishonest, is this insistence that you’re “neither right nor left”. That isn’t actually true, is it?

The LPUK website lists only right libertarians.
http://lpuk.org/

“I have. I do not even have a bank account. I refuse to do business with banks in the same way I refuse to do business with the State. I do not “consume” from corporations nor feast on “public services” whilst demanding others pay my bills.”

Most of us have to work, which means our salaries are paid into bank accounts. I take it you don’t work and that you get your money from…where exactly? A trust fund? Rents?

What do you mean by “consume from corporations”? As for you not “feast(ing) on public services”, I guess no one empties your bins and you take the rubbish to the tip yourself?

If you don’t want public services, you can always go an live in Somalia.

Another thing that I find odd, even dishonest, is this insistence that you’re “neither right nor left”. That isn’t actually true, is it?

The LPUK website lists only right libertarians.
http://lpuk.org/

“I have. I do not even have a bank account. I refuse to do business with banks in the same way I refuse to do business with the State. I do not “consume” from corporations nor feast on “public services” whilst demanding others pay my bills.”

Most of us have to work, which means our salaries are paid into bank accounts. I take it you don’t work and that you get your money from…where exactly? A trust fund? Rents?

What do you mean by “consume from corporations”? As for you not “feast(ing) on public services”, I guess no one empties your bins and you take the rubbish to the tip yourself?

If you don’t want public services, you can always go and live in Somalia.

@109 How about YOU go and find somewhere to impose your authoritarian regime upon?

Paying income tax, stamp duty, 20% VAT, insurance tax, savings tax, car tax, fuel tax, booze tax, flight tax, inheritence tax, road tax, EU tax etc etc etc makes us nothing more than slaves.

You do know we are borrowing the £800 million we are giving to Indian billionaires, right?

Paying income tax, stamp duty, 20% VAT, insurance tax, savings tax, car tax, fuel tax, booze tax, flight tax, inheritence tax, road tax, EU tax etc etc etc makes us nothing more than slaves.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Libertarians absolutely love hyperbole.

Try not paying taxes and see what the plantation owner does with you. Hyperbole?

@113 Yes I see now that you are unfamiliar with the concept known as slavery:

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. Slavery predates written records, has existed in many cultures and in some historical situations it has been legal for owners to kill slaves.

I put it to you that paying taxes to maintain the nation in which you live is not in the slightest similar to that description whatsoever and that the following statement from you

Try not paying taxes and see what the plantation owner does with you.

Is indeed hyperbole.

Besides, I bet you whine about the unemployed not paying taxes and living off your largesse as well…

115. Charlieman

@108. Old Holborn: ” I do not “consume” from corporations…”

How did you manage that? Obviously you do not live in a hole in the ground reading manuscripts, hence this discourse.

“I do not even have a bank account.” I am seriously interested about how you achieved it.

Is that how you really think? Is that the actually the first thought you get when you wake in the morning: ‘This is what Alex Haley was writing about’. Are you really getting into a chorus of ‘swing low, sweet chariot’, before you are locked into your chains? Really? Old Holborn feels like the slaves that built the Southern Plantations or the slaves that built the Great Wall or the pyramids?

You know what? Do you really know what I think? I think people like are twats.
I am sick to death of popstars, footballers musicians or other ‘artists’ who insist that a four year, three album, three film deal is the equivalent of poor old Kunta Kinte on a Southern Plantation working on a cotton farm.

I have news for George Micheal, and Mick Jagger and that footballer and the film Star and all the other twats in the land. Boo Hoo, you are not slaves, no you are not even close to slaves, even if the Government took 99% of your money, you would STILL live a better life than 99% of the World’s population. Even if Sony/Dundee Utd/Fox/Eastenders holds you to your contract, you are living better than everyone else.

You still pee into better water than most of the planet drinks, you throw out more calories than most people eat and you spent more on the paper to wipe your fucking arses with than two thirds of the World population get to live on.

But you think that is slavery? You are seriously comparing that to the slaves transported from africa three hundred years ago? What is it you are missing out of your life that is so terrible? Where is it you want to go to and what is it you need that you are missing that would make your life complete? What is it that this ‘freedom’ that you crave so much would afford you that you cannot get already? You are living at the top of an economic pyramid, and what? You want higher up the pyramid? Why? What are you missing?

Tell you what. Why not get all your ‘Libertarian’ mates together, buy a little farm somewhere in the back of beyond and rather than start a little commune, why not simply top yourselves? Why not take whatever ‘Dignitas’ recommends and end your collective lives together and have the last laugh on us all? After all, life is intoreable, and you simply cannot bear the injustice any more, so why not end it all? I will tell you why not. It is because you have too much to lose, that’s why. Despite being slaves on a plantation and being unable to feel the sun on your back, thanks to the scars from the overseers whip, you still have fairly comfortable lives.

You know what has happened to you, mate, you started writing a blog and you started to believe the shite that you have written. That is sad, but for fucks sake man stop whinging and dressing up as a spaceman or whatever and live your life, after all, you are a long time dead, sir.

Look at the picture of you and Staines, is that the man you wanted to be are you doing what you wanted to, and is that the man you wanted to be stood next to when you were doing it?

If I took you back to 1982 and showed that picture, would you have topped yourself there and then? You may be right, perhaps you are a slave, but to whom, OH, to whom?

“@108. Old Holborn: ” I do not “consume” from corporations…”

How did you manage that? ”

He probably knitted his own internet connection.

Dear @116

the East Germans had the 6th highest standard of living in Europe at one stage.

But they weren’t free. Just because the plantation owner gives you a roof over your head, free education, free pensions and a job for life doesn’t mean you are not a slave.

I repeat. Try not paying taxes and you will soon find out who the master really is.

And yes, I really don’t have a bank account anymore. It IS possible and no, I am anything but skint.

If I and my Libertarian mates buy a little farm somewhere, will you promise to leave us alone and not demand we pay taxes for diversity coordinators in inner cities? No. Thought not.

As a parting shot, here are the 5 biggest regrets people have on their death beds. Really. Have a good read, and learn to simply say no.

http://www.inspirationandchai.com/Regrets-of-the-Dying.html

Heh. He thinks taxes are all spent on diversity coordinators. What a bell end.

120. whydontugrowapair

“two witnesses tell us they felt he was being verbally aggressive.”

bwahahahahahahaaaaa.

diddums/

my ,my.what a bunch of programmed robots most of the posters are on here……

it’s worse than Labour home!

let the corrupt and caste ridden soveriegn nation of
India sort out it’s own problems……..

the money might be put to better use here in the uk?
or not stolen from us in the first place?

when you imagine that some politician or ‘board’ is working for anyones interest except their own you really need to enter therapy.

as for Staines? isn’t he part Indian? perhaps he has some knowledge of the subject or because he is overweight that means he is up for ridicule?

i bet you all look like models?

122. So Much For Subtlety

116. Jim – “even if the Government took 99% of your money, you would STILL live a better life than 99% of the World’s population.”

Yeah but that is irrelevant isn’t it? After all African-American slaves ate better than Italians at the time. But the Italian farmers were free and the slaves were not. You need a better measure of freedom.

“Why not get all your ‘Libertarian’ mates together, buy a little farm somewhere in the back of beyond and rather than start a little commune, why not simply top yourselves?”

Notice that states have been working hard to make sure no one can even try this

119. Cylux – “Heh. He thinks taxes are all spent on diversity coordinators. What a bell end.”

Well let’s see – Health costs about 7 or 8% of GDP. Education perhaps a bit over 5. Defence is lower than that but let’s say 5%. Most of the rest of what the government traditionally does is just noise, but let’s say it all comes to about 25% of GDP. While the government takes over 40%.

Thus we can conclude he is wrong. Not all taxes are spent on diversity co-ordinators. Just around half of them.

@122 If you really believe that you’re much much thicker than I thought. And I didn’t exactly think you were bright to begin with. I can only conclude that you suffer from “what have the Romans ever done for us?” syndrome.

124. Flobadobadob

Much as I dislike Staines, Old Holborn et al, there is a very serious point about foreign aid that is rarely mentioned, i.e. the democratic deficit it creates in recipient countries.

Countries such as India can get away with spending a fortune on nukes and space programs rather than on education and other projects that will be of use to their general populations because western aid bails ‘em out. The electorate in these countries are “liberated” from having to think about such trivialities as healthcare by our donations.

I do think that we should be providing help to poor people in these countries, but I’m not sure that we’re going about it in the right way.

125. Arthur Seaton

Shallow it may be, but it is satisfying when scum like Staines help you out by being as ugly on the outside as they are on the inside. The name is handy too.

SMFS @ 122

You need a better measure of freedom

Sure thing. Tell me what it is? Are we in the West ‘free’? I would say the vast majority are free and we have more freedom than almost everyone in Africa and Asia and the Old Holborns of this World are absolutely free by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Are the people who live and work in grinding poverty, free? The freedom to starve? He freedom to work sixteen-hour days for a dollar a day and simply have no hope of bettering themselves? Are the young kids who blowjob tourists in the fleshpots of Asia ‘free’? They are not paying for diversity officers nor are they living on benefits, either, they are selling labour on the free market without government interference, so they must be ‘free’?

Well, we could argue the toss about all that all day, but no fucking way is some whinging mid life crisis blogger telling me that being able to travel to any Country in the World, eat, drink and own practically anything he wants is the equivalent of a plantation slave.

He has a very big point no matter what handwring Liberals think.

128. Richard W

122. So Much For Subtlety

” Thus we can conclude he is wrong. Not all taxes are spent on diversity co-ordinators. Just around half of them. ”

SMFS, you usually present a good argument if somewhat extreme reactionary right wing. However, the above quote is one of your dumbest. Here is a pie chart of UK government expenditure. Even if there was a separate category for diversity co-ordinators, it would be a minuscule share of the budget. The majority of UK government spending is similar to most other high income nations. Take taxes from the working young and redistribute it to old people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UKExpenditure.svg

Well, we could argue the toss about all that all day, but no fucking way is some whinging mid life crisis blogger telling me that being able to travel to any Country in the World, eat, drink and own practically anything he wants is the equivalent of a plantation slave.

Plus his “try not paying taxes” argument is fatuous in the extreme, how much tax does he think the unemployed pay? Plus what sort of plantation owner pays and houses his slaves only for them to sit around idle? To compare our very fucking comfy and free situation with being chained and horsewhipped for not working hard enough is quite frankly offensive.

What this stunt really does, is remind us that his last proper scoop WAS the Damian McBride thing. And thats despite getting another right wing nut-jub to help him write his drivel.

131. Andy Nicholas

And in answer to the question about people on minimum wage being taxed to pay for African despots new Mercedes’, Indian space programmes, Pakistans nuclear weapons etc, when they can scarcely afford to live? * (Not that Anyone here really knows anything about hardship of course.)

132. Richard W

It has been answered but you chose to ignore the answers to pretend that we are paying for Pakistani nuclear weapons or the Indian space program. They have those things as well as dirt poor people. Helping their poor does not mean we are paying for the nuclear weapons and space program.

133. So Much For Subtlety

132. Richard W – “It has been answered but you chose to ignore the answers to pretend that we are paying for Pakistani nuclear weapons or the Indian space program. They have those things as well as dirt poor people. Helping their poor does not mean we are paying for the nuclear weapons and space program.”

Money is fungible. Which means that if we provide money for A, thus allowing Government B to shift money to C, then we are in effect paying for C.

The question is whether the Indian or Pakistani governments give a shit about their own poor. I am inclined to think they don’t, or at least not much. So if we did not pay for whatever pathetic programmes we pay for, the governments would not step in and pay for them themselves.

But I could be wrong. It could be there is some minimal provision that the two governments feel obligation to ensure for their own poor. The question would then become whether our aid lifts total spending over that limit and hence enables the Indian Space programme. That may be true. India is democratic after all. In which case we would be paying for it.

134. So Much For Subtlety

128. Richard W – “Here is a pie chart of UK government expenditure. Even if there was a separate category for diversity co-ordinators, it would be a minuscule share of the budget. The majority of UK government spending is similar to most other high income nations. Take taxes from the working young and redistribute it to old people.”

So the pie chart, while nice, is irrelevant. An Army Diversity co-ordinator comes under the Defence slice of the budget.

But perhaps here we need to take a leap of faith and see the term “diversity co-ordinator” as more of a general term that refers to pointless, ideologically driven spending? In which case we could say if only the budget did something as sensible (although wrong) as taking money from young workers and giving it to the idle old. It does not. What it does it takes money from people who earn and people who spend and gives it to people who choose to be idle as well as the multifarious paper pushers that this procedure seems to demand. After all, 190 billion pounds buys a lot of “social protection” even with just under 10 million economically inactive people in the UK.

@134 I suggest you look up the Mark Steel joke on laziness causing unemployment before you use the phrase “choose to be idle” in full seriousness.

136. Richard W

They are not shifting money to C. When the UK spends sterling aid money in India, the sterling is exchanged for local currency. On the Indian capital account this is an import of capital and because the RBI does not manage the float by sterilisation, the import increases the Indian money supply. Nothing is switched there is just an increase of money circulating in India. The sterling can only be spent in the UK so it will eventually find its way back to the UK purchasing UK goods, services and assets. If it did not that we be effectively free money for the UK monetary system.

It is as silly to say if we did not spend development money in India that they would not have a space project, as it would be to say if the international community had not sent Katrina aid to the US, they would have closed down an aircraft carrier.

The question is whether the aid is effective. That really depends the nature of the aid. Aid spent on human capital formation like education is a net good for India and the world. Spending on general infrastructure especially sanitation is good and raises the global fixed capital stock. Moreover, it raises their investment rate and that spills over to international investment. Second to the US as foreign investors in the UK is not France, Germany or China, it is India. Good relations with a rising power such as India is a net good for the UK.

Include Army diversity co-ordinators if you want, SMFS. It is still a minuscule share of total spending and you know it.

137. Richard W

*If it did not that would be effectively free money for the UK monetary system.*

Staines has form here though, as a supporter of UNITA and RENAMO, the guerrilla groups backed by apartheid South Africa who laid waste to large parts of Mozambique and Angola.

140. Robin Levett

@Old Holborn #139:

“oh look, Aid to India has been cancelled, £800M saved”

Care to produce a cite? The Telegraph story doesn’t back it.

It does quote Mitchell as saying:

“He said: “India is a place where there are more poor people than the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, Britain’s programme is demonstrative it shows how we can get more people into school, and women particularly.

“These programmes are massively scaled up by the Indian taxpayer.

British know how is making a huge contribution – now is not the time to stop the programme in India but I don’t think we will be there for very much longer.””

Which doesn’t support your claim that “Aid to India has been cancelled”; and makes your reference to “the £800 million we are giving to Indian billionaires” look a little silly, doesn’t it?

141. Minekiller

No but seriously, why do we give money to a nuclear armed country, with a space programme and not even a signatory to the 1997 Ottawa Treaty (banning landmines), or the recent anti cluster munitions treaty?

142. Chaise Guevara

@ 141

That question’s been asked and answered about 10 times on this thread now. Short version: the fact that a foreign government ignores its moral responsibilities does not absolve us of our moral responsibilities.

@142 What about the moral obligation to people in this country, pensioners, children in poverty, adults in poverty?

144. Old Slaughter

The comic sans one almost made the corner of my mouth twitch. The rest are embarrassingly unfunny or original.

@142 What about the moral obligation to people in this country, pensioners, children in poverty, adults in poverty?

Nobody in the UK is in poverty in the absolute, global sense of the term (aside from illegal immigrants who aren’t entitled to benefits, and people who are too mentally ill or incapacitated to claim the benefits to which they are entitled – neither of these situations is caused by a lack of money) – everyone has access to food, clothing, shelter, education and healthcare.

Seriously though; why do we have to make cuts and drag this country down to fund a country full of millionaires? I hate poverty but if they stopped having so many children there wouldn’t be so many children in poverty.

I thought our taxes were ‘taken’ from us to run this country and sort out the mess we are in; not give it away. There is something seriously wrong with this; I can’t help but think a few individuals will get very rich from this scam.

148. Jeremy Poynton

Hmmm. Fifth form humour at best, Sunny. And one has to note – Guido won – aid to India, a truly farcical way of pissing away our money even for a British government, is to be stopped as a result of this intervention. Guido was also at the forefront with the DT in exposing how many of our MPs are criminals.

What have you changed in politics, Sunny? What have you given to the rest of us, apart from regular moments of hilarity?

@148
Lol. He didn’t win at all, if anything the aid to India was successful and did it’s job and is now reaching it’s natural winding-down phase. Basically our aid laid the groundwork and programmes which the Indian government and taxpayers have increasingly been helping fund and will soon fund entirely. If anything the article Holborn linked is a rallying call for more international aid programmes, it proves they work.

150. Chaise Guevara

@ 146 Elliot

“Seriously though; why do we have to make cuts and drag this country down to fund a country full of millionaires? ”

Which country would that be? You can’t mean India, not unless “full of millionaires” means “contains an infintesimable number of millionaires as a percentage of the population”.

151. Mr S. Pill

@146

“I hate poverty but if they stopped having so many children there wouldn’t be so many children in poverty.”

Yeah, compulsory abortion for all expectant mothers in the third world NOW. [/rolleyes]

Off-topic slightly: I think aid should be better targeted at women in the 3rd world. It’s the one proven cure for poverty – the emancipation of women (quote stolen from Christopher Hitchens).

152. Mr S. Pill

@148

LOL if you think Guido “thirsty” Fawkes has any impact on the political scene other than causing a few lonely “libertarians” to ejaculate every time he posts another pathetic blogpost – or rather, gets someone else to write it for him.


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Liberal Conspiracy

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  2. Jonathan Davis

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  3. Liberal Conspiracy

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 (now with pictures!)

  4. sunny hundal

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  5. David

    Turns out that Paul Staines is a mong. Who'd have thunk it? http://t.co/vC2ag4V via @libcon #guidofawkes #toryscum #ravingnutjob

  6. Eilidh

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  7. Eilidh

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 (now with pictures!)

  8. Jon Slater

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  9. sunny hundal

    Wouldn't it be a shame if people photo-shopped that pic of Staines holding a banner with other captions? http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  10. Benjah

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  11. Tentacle Sixteen

    I knew @guidofawkes was a complete arsehole, but fucking hell… What happened when Staines stormed an aid event http://bit.ly/jbWIg6

  12. Chris Jordan

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  13. Adam Bienkov

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  14. George Allwell

    What happened when Staines stormed an aid event | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/xAal3zG via @libcon

  15. Stephen Harman

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  16. Global Development

    RT @libcon What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 #tt4c @teatime4change

  17. Paul Atherton

    RT @libcon What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 #tt4c @teatime4change

  18. Nick Hider

    Wow. Ludicrous crank @GuidoFawkes at it again RT @libcon
    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  19. Mabel Horrocks

    Wouldn't it be a shame if people photo-shopped that pic of Staines holding a banner with other captions? http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  20. Mabel Horrocks

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 (now with pictures!)

  21. Jonathan Walker

    Guido attempts to ambush Andrew Mitchell over foreign aid (apparently it's bad), two accounts: http://is.gd/KidAJV http://is.gd/WvXxti

  22. sunny hundal

    Hah! We now have a full-on caption competition on Guido Fawkes from his idiotic stunt this morning http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  23. Ellie Mae O'Hagan

    Ahhh THIS is what Guido did. Don't try activism, Paul. It doesn't suit you http://t.co/dMVxBD1 via @libcon

  24. Zoe Stavri

    @MissEllieMae He gatecrashed an aid event, acting and looking like a complete cheddar bellend http://is.gd/WvXxti

  25. Stace

    RT @sunny_hundal: Hah! We now have a full-on caption competition on Guido Fawkes from his idiotic stunt this morning http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  26. oliver standing

    Hah! We now have a full-on caption competition on Guido Fawkes from his idiotic stunt this morning http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  27. Joe Jordan

    this is actually hilarious. they are the trots of the right. http://t.co/9yjQPyQ via @libcon

  28. sunny hundal

    RT @libcon What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 #tt4c @teatime4change

  29. Alex Snowdon

    Hah! We now have a full-on caption competition on Guido Fawkes from his idiotic stunt this morning http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  30. Alex J. Thomas

    RT @libcon What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 #tt4c @teatime4change

  31. No Staines on him « Though Cowards Flinch

    [...] implied the foreign secretary was doing untoward things with his aide, now he tells fibbers about people at rallies. There must be something about the words “foreign” and “aid” or [...]

  32. Tim Sowula

    Seems @GuidoFawkes 's stunt today at the #aid event backfired on him. Lesson: Do your research. Or look very stupid http://bit.ly/lJCQeG

  33. Tim Sowula

    Hah! We now have a full-on caption competition on Guido Fawkes from his idiotic stunt this morning http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  34. Justin McKeating

    I see Guido Fawkes gave his carer the slip again today http://t.co/2ABIIaI

  35. Simon Alvey

    http://t.co/qaGRYrz @guidofawkes looking like a twit, quel surprise,

  36. Amster

    Blogosphere-shattering news as Paul Staines makes a fool of himself, again: http://bit.ly/ljx1Wg

  37. Kevin Arscott

    I see Guido Fawkes gave his carer the slip again today http://t.co/2ABIIaI

  38. Andy S

    RT @libcon What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 #tt4c @teatime4change

  39. Chris Lindores

    RT @uponnothing RT @justmckeat I see Guido Fawkes gave his carer the slip again today http://t.co/2ABIIaI

  40. Crispy Frontboat

    http://bit.ly/jQznqF and my dad reads fawkes' blog like it's the fucking bible

  41. JubileeDebtCampaign

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 (now with pictures!)

  42. Nick dearden

    Staines storms aid event & looks like a prat – with really funny pics http://t.co/qlN6ZHH @libcon

  43. Brian Moylan

    @Scarletstand – http://bit.ly/j55aL3 < http://bit.ly/iur2Nyhttp://bit.ly/m0TNY6 < all just a bit o fun isn't it? :)

  44. Andy Watt

    Hah! P Staines aka @GuidoFawkes storms an aid event; makes himself look like a prat (pics included) http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  45. George Olver

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3

  46. Nick Drew

    Guido attempts to ambush Andrew Mitchell over foreign aid (apparently it's bad), two accounts: http://is.gd/KidAJV http://is.gd/WvXxti

  47. Old Holborn

    Snork. I've upset the Fabians who want to give £16 BILLION a year of YOUR money to all and sundry. http://bit.ly/iPqNWm

  48. Macus Junius Brutus

    Staines storms aid event & looks like a prat | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/ZuuZz54 via @libcon “fucking brilliant”

  49. Akvavitix

    @Old_Holborn: I've upset the Fabians who want 2give £16 BILLION a year of YOUR money to all and sundry. http://bit.ly/iPqNWm <Left a retort.

  50. Seditious Bastard

    Snork. I've upset the Fabians who want to give £16 BILLION a year of YOUR money to all and sundry. http://bit.ly/iPqNWm

  51. sarah green

    Staines storms aid event & looks like a prat – with really funny pics http://t.co/qlN6ZHH @libcon

  52. criticalpraxis

    What happened when Guido Fawkes stormed aid event http://bit.ly/j55aL3 (now with pictures!)

  53. sunny hundal

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  54. Kate

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  55. Andy Emmerson

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  56. Lenathehyena

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  57. Tom King

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  58. .

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  59. Paddy Eden

    RT @sunny_hundal: Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  60. elgan

    RT @sunny_hundal: Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  61. Idiotarians: Hating on the Poor « Left Outside

    [...] Paul Staines [1] is angry with the UK Government’s foreign aid budget, and has pulled a stupid stunt harassing old ladies.  To highlight the injustice of wealthy Briton’s being taxed to give [...]

  62. Richard Shaw

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  63. Chris Paul

    Just got a call from a contact saying P. Staines was seething about my caption competition http://bit.ly/j55aL3 shame huh?

  64. Jason Kay

    RT @northbriton45: It's nice to see that ridiculous wino Paul Staines get a bit of his own medicine today http://bit.ly/iPqNWm

  65. Jason Kay

    RT @northbriton45: It's nice to see that ridiculous wino Paul Staines get a bit of his own medicine today http://bit.ly/iPqNWm

  66. The Daily Quail

    Context: http://bit.ly/mveJOT I can only assume he was wankered. Either that or he's a monumental fucktard. Or both.

  67. Matthew Eyre

    Confirmation, were you to need it, that Paul Staines, a.k.a. Guido Fawkes, is a heavy-hitter on the cunt index http://t.co/uIPY4sB

  68. Teresa

    Staines storms aid event & looks like a prat | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/5ne0kYW via @libcon what's new?

  69. Paul Hutchinson

    Context: http://bit.ly/mveJOT I can only assume he was wankered. Either that or he's a monumental fucktard. Or both.

  70. Edgar Kail

    Bonkers Paul Staines’ (aka blogger Guido Fawkes) http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/06/09/what-happened-when-guido-fawkes-stormed-aid-event/

  71. International aid: an apology to the experts « Though Cowards Flinch

    [...] thanks to this intervention by experts in the field, I have seen the error of my ways.  I now know that in fact I and my colleagues (pictured) [...]

  72. Old Holborn

    I repeat. Try not paying taxes and you will soon find out who the master really is. http://bit.ly/jxjBNI #ukuncut

  73. UK should continue aid to India say MPs | Liberal Conspiracy

    [...] report did not comment on the willingness of right-wing bloggers to make themselves look like prats in order to try and stop aid to [...]

  74. How to stop the libertarians killing poor people (part 1 of 2) « Though Cowards Flinch

    [...] As most readers will also know, there has been a spate self-aggrandizing self-styled ‘libertarian’ (note 1) pig ignorance over the last week or two, using the existence of the Indian space programme as a pretext to rail against the UK’s aid programme to India.  First there was Peter Hitchens on Question Time, and then there was Staines with his spaceman stunt. [...]

  75. Dawn Foster

    Let's just laugh at this instead of watching Staines on #Leveson: http://t.co/CfDqz9Bi

  76. Cyril Cacoethes

    Let's just laugh at this instead of watching Staines on #Leveson: http://t.co/CfDqz9Bi

  77. Jimbo Jetset

    Let's just laugh at this instead of watching Staines on #Leveson: http://t.co/CfDqz9Bi

  78. Political Animal

    Sad thing is that this morning's fracas with a chicken and knocked over media was a dignified stunt by Guido standards http://t.co/88Z1JW3e

  79. Michael Bater

    Sad thing is that this morning's fracas with a chicken and knocked over media was a dignified stunt by Guido standards http://t.co/88Z1JW3e

  80. JM

    .@GuidoFawkes has form in 'storming' events drunk and embarrassing himself massively http://t.co/LJeBphHl via @libcon

  81. Primly Stable

    @geeoharee This one, I mean: http://t.co/9QWyWVNB





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