Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases?


2:00 pm - January 8th 2011

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contribution by Iman Qureshi

The coverage of The Times’ investigation into the sexual exploitation of young girls—the majority of whom were revealed to be white—has snowballed into a debate on racial sensitivities, as it transpired that perpetrators were almost exclusively of Asian — more specifically, Pakistani — origin.

It is no surprise that this story was promptly picked up by the Telegraph, the Daily Mail and the Sun, enabling right-wingers and nationalists to smugly say that these statistics prove that Nick Griffin has been right all along.

The Times defend their racialised conclusion on the grounds there has been an deliberate cover-up by authorities who neglected to investigate further “for fear of being branded racist”. But this defense effectively “shuts down or taints as mealy-mouthed” any criticism.

Indeed, if a “conspiracy of silence” is truly the case, there should be a thorough investigation into the methods of the police. Were they negligent? How? But there is no talk along these lines; instead we are only asked to sympathise with them.

Furthermore, the statistics are inevitably skewed. Since over 90% of the UK population is white, so there is no way one can conclusively assume that white girls are being singled out specifically for being white – as is being almost unanimously suggested by commentators on the issue.

The fact that only five out of a random sample of 269 Crown Court cases (certainly more thorough and extensive than the 17 examined by The Times) of grooming involved Asian men* is also conveniently ignored.

But it is the conclusions being drawn from them that are the problem.

Former MP Ann Cryer stated,

The problem is that many of these men are already married or have been promised in marriage to someone they’ve never met, some cousin from their village in Mirpur who is almost certainly illiterate and hasn’t got anything in common with them.

It’s hugely troubling that suddenly a false fantasy of “Pakistani culture” is assumed to be the cause of sexual misconduct, perversions and rapists.

Times journalist David Aaronovitch self-assuredly concludes:

By and large the seducers come from formerly rural communities that tend to both idealise and oppress women. The notion of what the “good” woman is as a mother, wife, daughter, may be enforced without significant regard to the woman’s own wishes. And one of these notions concerns the importance of virginity before marriage.

There is no evidence or research to support these assumptions – they are pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey style guesses, and entirely fallacious.

The similarities between this sort of racial profiling and previous bigoted regimes is glaring; the Nazi regime regularly produced propaganda denouncing Jews as sexual perverts.

In 1952 eminent academic Frantz Fanon wrote with regard to the sexual stereotypes of black men,

The negro is viewed [by whites] as a penis symbol” and ascribed this cultural fantasy to white assumptions of superiority, and the fear of the Other; in this case the Other is figured by the image of the Muslim, which has, in our post-9/11 society, unfortunately come to embody something that is feared.

What’s more problematic is the delineation of “British Asians”, or “British Muslims” or “Pakistanis” that is being employed; these are not homogenous groups, and they do not come from the same cultures, traditions, or beliefs.

But perhaps the most worrying fact is that the real issue—that both society and justice are routinely failing young girls who are sexually exploited—is being overshadowed by a misleading and pointless debate over race.

This is a far broader problem better addressed by correcting the social welfare system, the legal system, the sexualisation of children and the lens through which we view teenage girls – and of course more responsible and informed discussions on these issues.

—-
*This statistic, bizarrely, is quoted in the 5 January 2011 article by Andrew Norfolk titled, “Some of these men have children the same age; they are bad apples” on Factiva, but omitted on thetimes.co.uk version.

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Reader comments


“Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases?”

Because Labour and the BNP rely on racist campaigning techniques to mobilise their core support.

Simples.

This is all very well, but why no mention of Jack Straw’s warning about Sunny and his swarthy ilk ?

Apparently they do terrible things to white women.

@1

I seem to remember campaigning against the BNP in Barking and Dagenham, and discovering that the Conservative Party’s leaflets were only slightly less racist…

Did they mention the danger men of Pakistani origin pose to white women?

“Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases?”

Yes, why on earth would a Lancashire Labour MP with a right-wing reputation smear all Pakistani men, five days before a by-election in a heavily white Lancashire seat won in May by a man who whipped up anti-immigrant and anti-Islamic sentiment?

As we all know Labour is really progressive and fighting the fascist Con-Dems, it really is baffling.

Godwin’s law has been invoked with this article

The Franz Fanon quote on Black men over ran into your own writing about Muslims and 9/11.

8. Anon E Mouse

Parasite – I know the last Home Secretary had Walter Wolfgang, the 86 year old lifelong Labour Party member arrested for heckling using the Terrorism Act but even he couldn’t affect the sentencing date of these criminals.

All Pakistani men are not being smeared – the writer of this item clearly has a chip on his shoulder and can’t accept the fact that people may not share his opinion and agree with Jack Straws comments.

Freedom is great until someone says something about any follower of the Islamic faith and then off we go.

The men convicted of these crimes were of Pakistani heritage. And? Their victims (who I have far more sympathy for) are not being mentioned in this article and were white and under age.

I would suggest that the author here should be condemning the actions of these criminals for bringing shame on his people – they used Vodka to hold down a rape a 12 year old girl for heavens sake – instead of his clear feelings of victimhood.

There may come a day when accounts have to settled in a higher place and I wouldn’t want to put his feelings of insult ahead of little girls that had been drugged and raped…

9. Iman Qureshi

@ Anon E Mouse,

I apolologise if you read this article as a defense of rapists – that was absolutely not my intention. Let me be clear, there is absolutely no justificiation for sexual exploitation or abuse. In fact, I am not discussing the crimes at all, but merely criticising the methods of the investigation and the racist rhetoric that is being used to discuss the issue.

Hope that clarifies.

Really difficult issue this. A good place for some perspective is that Comment is Free article linked to in the opening post by Libby Brooks and then reading some of the reader’s comments.

Some of the criticism of it is well deserved in my opinion, and with over 700 replies, it’s obviously a really immotivate isue. I haven’t read David Aaronovitch’s article because of the pay wall (but will), but his credentials as a strong anti-racist are second to none I thought. And Ann Cryer has been banging on about this stuff for a long time now.

Actually – even though I’ll have to read it again more slowly, I thought Libby Brooks’ article was quite appalling and is everything that is wrong with the way that liberals and the left talk about issues like this.

Last night on Newsnight where Jack Straw made his comments about ”easy meat” …. (which I thought were totally over the top btw), they also mentioned the figure of ”400 families” being affected by this issue.
It’s not up on the i-player yet but is obviously worth looking at again.

Not all Pakastani men are being accused here, but like with Catholic priests, there will be some fallout for the whole community.

But to deny there is not a cultural dimension is just doing …… well, what some of the commentators under the CiF article said.

If you have young men (like Jack Straw said) ”filled with testosterone” who go around in racially exclusive male muslim groups, but can’t even really go to the pub or have girlfriends, what are they supposed to do on a saturday night out in Blackburn or Derby?

Get in the car and drive around for some laughs, but there’s not many laughs to be had if you aren’t going to break some of your religion’s rules.
And even if they aren’t that religious, and do have a bottle of something in the car and are smoking weed, they still can’t go copping off with girls from their own community.

As the communities are often somewhat segregated, they don’t even hang out in racially mixed company, but driving around with your mates, you can always try pulling up by some girls from other communities and try to chat them up.
Ask them if they want to go for a ride etc.

Just like young people have been doing since James Dean movies and Saturday Night Fever, but with a modern day British twist.

damon – I agree with you both about both the Guardian article and Jack Straw’s speech. I’m not sure whether I agree with every point raised in the OP but I definitely sympathise with IQ in his response to Anon (9).

“Freedom is great until someone says something about any follower of the Islamic faith and then off we go.”

You’re confusing your racial with your religious bigotry.

It’s Pakistanis the comrades are after today, not Muslims.

“the author here should be condemning the actions of these criminals for bringing shame on his people”

LOL

And who are his people? Northeners?

Fanon writing in 1952 about ‘our post-9-11 society’? A prophet indeed.

Also, I guess those involved missed a trick. They should have sent the story to a Wikileaks server before publishing it…

14. Bored in Kavanagasau

The views highlighted are not so far from those expressed by one victim, Emma Jackson.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/they-like-us-naive-how-teenage-girls-are-groomed-for-a-life-of-prostitution-by-uk-gangs-1880959.html

While the gangs involved in grooming youngsters come from all sorts of backgrounds, Emma believes, on the basis of her own experience, that there was something in the culture of second- and third-generation men from the Indian sub-continent that drew them into such activities. “White girls are classed as lower,” she says. “These men class women as lower anyway, but white women are lower still. And in their tradition, girls become women at 12, so perhaps they didn’t think they were doing wrong with me.”

There views are not far removed from Sunny Hundal has said in the past. Do you have a problem with white people saying the same thing?

http://imanqureshi.wordpress.com/2010/12/08/fifa-world-cup-england%E2%80%99s-thinly-veiled-bigotry/

The author observes racist emissions from the English over football but not British Pakistani men using racial taunts whilst raping and pimping out white girls.

Since over 90% of the UK population is white, so there is no way one can conclusively assume that white girls are being singled out specifically for being white – as is being almost unanimously suggested by commentators on the issue.

That query would only make sense if British Pakistani males were randomly dispersed away from British Pakistani women. In-group relationships, going so far as cousin marriage, is prevalent among British Pakistani with interracial marriages recorded around ~2%. The ovewhelming prevalence of white girls of victims and the absence of Pakistani girls provides strong evidence for racism. In addition, racial taunts directed at the victims have been reported and were given by an interviewee on Newsnight yesterday. I am surprised Lib Con have carried a denial of the racist element behind these crimes.

Have you noticed the unusually high percentages of white males from an NUS heritage (Straw, Woolas and Aaronovitch) who have a tendency to exploit prejudice against Pakistanis?

Disingenuous article.

Straw make his caveats first before the remarks you selectively highlight. He was very clear that he is not ‘smearing’ all Pakistani men.

But all in all, the idea seems to be that to claim the police and other organisations are ‘institutionally racist’ on the basis that they are majority white is fine, but to use statistics to highlight a trend amongst any other group then whites is, in itself ‘racist.’

In fact in that Guardian article linked to, the lead cartoon shows the only figure identified to England as a tattooed skin head pointing accusingly at an innocent looking Asian man.

So that article that just as disingenuously decries ‘stereotyping’ begins with a very graphic demonstration of real stereotyping.

The problem is real and it is the real victims in this that need support.

17. Charlieman

@10 damon

I think that you may be right about a cultural dimension, but is it one of race, religion, youth, social disaffection? It’s fair to say that lots of lads have nothing to do at night and hang around in groups, sharing booze and a bit of grass, and often being a pain in the backside (intentionally or not). We don’t need statistics to observe that such things occur.

The case that provoked Jack Straw’s remarks was not a commonplace one. I have no doubt that adult men (and the accused were in their mid 20s when the offences occurred, not lads) groom vulnerable girls using the techniques revealed in court. That does not mean that the crime is common or associated with a particular social group. The cultural dimension to the crime is that a group of men lack morals.

As Libby Brooks wrote in that Guardian piece: “But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested.”

There is no statistical evidence to associate immorality more strongly with men of Pakistani origin than white men. The only conclusion that I am able to draw is that Jack Straw is a shit stirrer.

18. Anon E Mouse

Jon – You say “And who are his people? Northeners?”

Are you suggesting the author has no point here about claiming it is people of a Pakistani origin? Why write this article then? He obviously sees a slight on his community which is his right if he wishes.

Your point is a silly attempt at being politically correct added with a New Labour type smear against someone who doesn’t share your view. How typical.

The facts are:

Youths of a Pakistani heritage drugged, held down and allowed other youths of a Pakistani heritage to rape underaged girls who were white.

Now even if I was a bigot, which I’m not despite your slur, that type of activity is frankly disgraceful and far worse than any perceived slight against a community.

19. Anon E Mouse

Iman Qureshi – I fully accept that clarification. I do think that people are being too sensitive over racial issues in this country.

Also in fairness to Jack Straw (and as an ex-Labour voter I have no reason to be) he did state that predominantly sexual crimes were carried out by white men.

The Yorkshire ripper, Fred West, Ian Huntley spring to mind but he was just saying that this particular grooming of young girls was carried out by youths of a Pakistani origin which is true.

He didn’t say all Pakistani’s were grooming and abusing white girls but it a fact that all the white girls that were groomed and abused were victims of Pakistani’s.

I just hate the idea that people aren’t free to express an opinion without being branded racist because the view they espouse is misconstrued for political gain.

I am not suggesting that is what you are doing fella but the rhetoric regarding Nazis is a bit extreme! Are you a Lib Dem supporter by any chance?

Instead of listening to the politicians hyping up this story, let’s consider what the real experts in the field are saying.

Retired detective chief superintendent Max McLean, who led a previous police investigation into sexual exploitation involving the grooming and trafficking of young girls in Leeds, questioned whether it was a cultural problem.

“I’m not suggesting, and I do not think anybody is, that it is a problem within a community,” he told the Today programme. “What I am saying is that, when you take a crime type – street grooming – and see that the vast majority of people convicted are from a particular community, then there appears something we should do about those offenders.

“But that is the very danger, that we say that all street groomers are Asian men. What we have found is that our investigations have led to convictions, generally speaking, for this type of crime.

“That is a slightly different thing and it is incumbent on the police and professionals to engage with communities where we identify those offenders to see if there are preventative opportunities.”

And Derbyshire Police said “the girls were from a variety of backgrounds and urged all parents to be aware of the risks of sexual exploitation”.

A report published after the gang was convicted said there were “missed opportunities” by agencies to help the girls.

21. Charlieman

@16 Daniel T: “Straw make his caveats first before the remarks you selectively highlight. He was very clear that he is not ‘smearing’ all Pakistani men.”

True, but I don’t understand why Jack Straw feels compelled to say anything. The topic is sensitive and complex. It appears to be one where coalition ministers have decided to keep their mouths shut, rather than try to score political points.

Police officers, former police officers and voluntary workers demonstrate awareness of the complexity in their statements. I’d prefer to hear a lot more from them about this problem than ex-ministers. If there is a religious or national aspect to these crimes, which has not been demonstrated thus far, I’d like to hear the story from them.

22. Charlieman

@8 Anon E Mouse: “I would suggest that the author here should be condemning the actions of these criminals for bringing shame on his people…”

Before founding LC, Sunny set up the Pickled Politics blog. It is a blog primarily about East Asian politics and culture from a UK perspective. One of the principles is about treating people as they are and establishing politics beyond “community leaders”. The same principles apply here.

Iman Qureshi puts his name to this piece as Iman Qureshi. He represents himself.

Common sense at last…

I havent read the articles in the mainstream press on this issue. But I am not very happy with this final paragraph here:

‘This is a far broader problem better addressed by correcting the social welfare system, the legal system, the sexualisation of children and the lens through which we view teenage girls – and of course more responsible and informed discussions on these issues.’

I think the idea of ‘correcting’ social change is flawed and couldnt be achieved anyway. The concept of ‘sexualisation’ is controversial and not accepted across the board. We do need more informed discussions about sex, sexuality, gender and power, but maybe not within the constraints this writer has suggested.

@ Charlieman

“There is no statistical evidence to associate immorality more strongly with men of Pakistani origin than white men”

That is your question. The actual question is: Is there any statistical evidence that Asian men are disproportionately represented in these offences, and the answer is yes.

In the cases researched, out of 56 convicted for these crimes, 53 were Asian. Of which 50 were Muslim. Of which a majority were of Pakistani descent.

Quite clear really.

And aside from those figure, in their briefing paper, researchers at University College London’s Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science concurred that victims were typically white girls while ‘most central offenders are Pakistani’.

Are they merely disguised agenda based racists?

West Mercia Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said:

‘These girls are being passed around and used as meat.
“To stop this type of crime you need to start everyone talking about it but everyone’s been too scared to address the ethnicity factor.
‘No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication.’

Do you think he might just know a bit about the problem? Or is he a disguised agenda based racist?

Was the Channel 4 documentary ‘Edge of the city’ that investigated this issue really a made up racist propaganda film?

Did this Detective featured in the above documentary (at the below link) in charge of a specialist task force just make up his observations of ethnic composition in these offences? Is he a disguised agenda based racist?

Did the director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation, Mohammed Shafiq ackowldge the ethnic element of the issue and comment that:

“I think the police are over cautious in dealing with in dealing with this issue openly because they fear being branded racist. And I think that is wrong.”

Is he another disguised agenda based racist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qborZxl3pZk&feature=related

And I guess Ann Cryer must be another disguised agenda based racist because she says this of her experiences in her constituency:

“I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

Is it all ‘Pakistani’ men? I haven’t heard anyone claim this at all. Nor about all Asian or Muslim men.

Is it is a disproportionate offence involving Asian, Pakistani and Muslim men?

Yes, it would very much appear to be.

And so then it is no good pretending it is not and branding as racist those that highlight and pursue it.

The only point I agree on in this article is that there should indeed be a very through investigation of the police (and all other involved agencies) and their knowledge to inaction coefficient in this issue with charges laid in the event of dereliction of duty.

26. Dick the Prick

Dear Sir

I’m not sure you can blame the right wing press for running with this issue considering Jack Straw’s credentials. As far as it sounded Jack Straw was highlighting a perceived problem with cultural similarities. By simply denoting an individual or group of individuals by a common description and similarity is fair play.

It is to say worthy of consideration that there could be some investigation into the frequency of attacks. As Vaz has mentioned – the lad had plenty of opportunity to do something about it when he had the Home Office gig and yet silence. I used to foster kids and stuff and a couple of older carers said they’d had problems with gangs of asian kids where girls were traded.There are lots of foster homes round here where carers have about 20 kids a year on respite & stuff.

I don’t know the frequency (although it did seem quite common) and I don’t know their race. I also don’t know the frequency of white kids raping vulnerable lasses – prevalence rates per 100,000 usually does the trick. The bottom line is that kids are getting raped and the perpertrators need to be banged up.

Incendary rhetoric shouldn’t really be applied to an already irritating issue which could do with addressing.

Yours etc etc

DtP

So let me get this right…Tory trolls who come on here daily to complain about political correctness are attacking Jack Straw because he said something that is, er………. not politically correct.

Yup, your tory troll in all his idiocy.

Quiet Riot Girl – I think that’s an important point – ‘sexualisation of children’ could include a lot of things – depending on how exactly you define both ‘sexualisation’ and ‘children’ – ranging from innocuous, via tacky and disturbing, to horrifying and criminal.

Yes Sarah AB I agree. Whenever subjects like this come up I think it gives us an opportunity to discuss the wider issues at stake. Whether or not we take that opportunity is another question! I have avoided the articles in the mainstream press on this story as I feel very wary about how they will have been framed. But I will take a look. I will look out some articles on ‘sexualisation’ as well-there are some more critical approaches out there.

30. Charlieman

@25 justin: “That is your question. The actual question is: Is there any statistical evidence that Asian men are disproportionately represented in these offences, and the answer is yes.”

The statistic which you use to dispute this point is about *groups* of men who groom children. From the Telegraph: “But in 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white, The Times reported.”

The evidence that Pakistani men are associated with grooming or sexual offences as individuals is contradicted by overall conviction rates for sexual offences. Most sexual crimes are performed by white people and there aren’t any studies that show racial inclination to sex crime.

The 17 cases of group grooming in 12 years (1997-2009) demonstrates nothing statistically. The sample size is too small. It is dwarfed by other sexual abuse cases where men act in tandem but are not charged as a group.

justin’s Ann Cryer comment: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

I guess this is one of those comments that sounds true to some people and utterly offensive to me. I don’t know any men of any race who openly talk of women as rape material.

Can we be told whether the international camapign to stop honour killings is also politically incorrect and whether it too has a racist dimension?
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

OFF TOPIC

A big story breaking in the US.. Dem politician who voted for health care has been shot along with six of her fellower helpers.

She was targetted by Palin in the recent election like this….

“Giffords’ 2010 Congressional opponent Jesse Kelly held a June 12 gun event that was billed as follows on the Pima County Republican website:

Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shot a fully automatic M15 with Jesse Kelly

Kelly’s website has apparently scrubbed the event , but here is the account from the Arizona Daily Star:

Jesse Kelly, meanwhile, doesn’t seem to be bothered in the least by the Sarah Palin controversy earlier this year, when she released a list of targeted races in crosshairs, urging followers to “reload” and “aim” for Democrats. Critics said she was inciting violence.”

Fucking brownshirt conservative scum.

“He didn’t say all Pakistani’s were grooming and abusing white girls but it a fact that all the white girls that were groomed and abused were victims of Pakistani’s”

Then he’s a liar as well as a racist.

To claim that only Pakistanis groom and sexually abuse white girls is so ridiculous that nobody but a Labour/BNP sympathiser would believe it.

Rubbish to all of this. No evidence whatsoever exists to align this behaviour with the world of Islam, Just pure and utter modern day Labour rubbish by a two faced arsehole from the past who should have been dropped in 1997.

@ Charlieman

“The evidence that Pakistani men are associated with grooming or sexual offences as individuals is contradicted by overall conviction rates for sexual offences.”

You have done it again. The issue here is not ‘overall convictions rates for sexual offences’ but conviction rates for these specific offences that relate this debate i.e. the organised grooming and rape of underage girls.

The evidence presented so far is pretty clear in its trend, but I have no doubt at all that now this has become a national debate, more figures will indeed emerge.

But you didn’t comment on whether those experienced and ranking detectives are simply racist liars making up racist stories or whether they might actually have more insight into the realities then most. Tell us what you think.

Same goes to Ms Cryer. Is she just a racist agitator making up racist stories? Or did she make these comments because as MP a significant enough number of her constituents had raised this issue with her?

And why did Mr Mohammed Shafiq make his comments? Did he base them on actual knowledge and experience of the issue, or is he too, in some sort of lunatic masochistic way, an racist agitator too?

36. Charlieman

@31 Bob B: “Can we be told whether the international camapign to stop honour killings is also politically incorrect and whether it too has a racist dimension?”

There are two questions there, Bob.

On point one, I’ve found that LC commenters are pretty good at working out political correctness. Danny Finkelstein once wrote at the Times that most political correctness is simply good manners; we talk about men and women, rather than mankind; it is verbose but clarifies that our definition is not sexist. We can challenge faith politely.

It is really easy. Political correctness means that you are pleasant in your discourse and treatment of fellow citizens. “Political correctness gone mad” means that somebody has fouled up their job and that somebody else has invented some fiction for a Daily Mail story.

On point two, honour killings are mainly associated with the people of the Indian subcontinent or descendents. And a few in Italy, Spain and neighbours. And the odd one or two in English history prior to Queen Victoria (well, maybe a lot).

Your boost to http://www.stophonourkillings.com/ is welcome but don’t wrap it up with silly comments. And don’t forget sati and enforced marriage.

@12 “You’re confusing your racial with your religious bigotry. It’s Pakistanis the comrades are after today, not Muslims.”

and @16 “Straw make his caveats first before the remarks you selectively highlight. He was very clear that he is not ‘smearing’ all Pakistani men.”

Yeah, because all the bigots out there are really going to sit there thing “Ah well that Straw, he’s not after the Mozzies today, he’s only after P*kis, lucky we sorted the difference out.”

As I said earlier when the BBC’s main story was Jack Straw echoing BNP propaganda, raising hell about (use whatever euphemism you like) to smear all them dirty dark-skinned types as preying on easy meat white virginal types, five days before a by-election in a white Lancashire seat caused by the incumbent MP winning on the back of race-rousing filth.

I give it a week before dear Sunny is rubbing one off on Debbie Abrahams getting into the Commons on this sort of filth, still anything’s alright, so long as the Lib Dems are defeated and we can all call them Quislings to the progressive (read: Tory-hating) cause, eh?

38. Charlieman

@35 justin: “You have done it again. The issue here is not ‘overall convictions rates for sexual offences’ but conviction rates for these specific offences that relate this debate i.e. the organised grooming and rape of underage girls.”

There are no statistics for “group grooming”. It is not a specific offence. The “statistics” produced by the Times add up to nothing. Many offenders groom and abuse young people in tandem without being members of an identifiable group.

“But you didn’t comment on whether those experienced and ranking detectives are simply racist liars making up racist stories or whether they might actually have more insight into the realities then most.”

I did not refer to the police officers quoted by you, because police officers and voluntary workers often talk double-speak with the press. The words that appear in the Guardian will not be those printed in the Mail.

I am not really interested in what people think in gut reaction. I am interested in nuts and bolts, which are always hard to find given human composition and disposition. Perhaps the considered information and evidence that I seek will eventually emerge.

I have said enough about Ann Cryer.

As for Mohammed Shafiq, he makes a fair comment. Investigation of crime and any prosecution should not be determined by race.

39. Just Visiting

Iman

I am deeply troubled by LC giving you space to post such misleading stuff.

You say when prompted:
> I apolologise if you read this article as a defense of rapists – that was absolutely not my intention.

So why the heck did your post itself not start with a paragraph to that effect? Did you give it so little thought before you posted it?

Then you say
>I am not discussing the crimes at all, but merely criticising the methods of the investigation and the racist rhetoric that is being used to discuss the issue.

WTF – so you don’t want to discuss the crimes – ie the facts on the ground.
Instead you seem to want to flip a situation round: turn a situation where some Muslims/pakistanis were the criminals, into a debate of Muslims/Pakistanis now being the __victims__ – sheez, are you a PR machine dedicated to damage limitation whenever embarrassing Muslim/Pakistani facts comes out?

But anyway – you have not even done what you said you wanted to: I see no facts being raised by you concerning the ‘methods of the investigation’ by the Times.

Your post is mostly your comments of how you don’t like the _tone_ being used the media to discuss the issue – but again, I see no debate from facts about organiszed grooming.

And then you compare to the Nazis – jeez, that is poor quality.

Until we allow our discussions to be based in facts, however uncomfortable, we get no where.

So Iman – gives us some facts about the ‘methods of the investigation’ by the Times.

40. Just Visiting

Charlieman 38

> The “statistics” produced by the Times add up to nothing.

Can you err, give us more facts detail on your view there?

This grooming issue needs to be treated alongside the international campaign against honour killings, which we should take much more seriously than we do:

“The brother of a young actor in the Harry Potter films today admitted attacking his sister over her relationship with a Hindu man.

“Afshan Azad, 22, played Padma Patil, a classmate of the wizard apprentice in the blockbuster films based on JK Rowling’s books. Her brother Ashraf, 28, from the Longsight district of Manchester, admitted one charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm as his trial was due to begin at Manchester crown court.

“The court heard that during the assault, he branded his sister a ‘slag’ after he overheard talking on the phone to her boyfriend. Scared, she fled the family home by climbing out of a bedroom.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/20/harry-potter-actor-attacked-allegation

42. Just Visiting

Bob is right.

Until LC can get over it’s reluctance to allow that there IS a cultural factor in play in Islam, our debates here will never get to talk the real issues and solutions.

We’ll never get to discuss the whys and wherefor’s of honour killing in this country.

Or the plight of women under islam – like todays’s news of:

* Saudi rape victim gets gets a year in jail, 100 lashes
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2009020828735

Or other news items today:
* terrorist threat against churches in Australia
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/terrorism-threats-against-coptic-churches-20110108-19j30.html

* Iranian authorities said they arrested dozens of Christians who had converted from Islam.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2011/01/07/Christians-arrested-in-Iran/UPI-72361294417421/

43. Daniel Factor

It’s racism pure and simple and Jack Straw is a warped man who’s lost the plot!

@39 Just Visiting: “WTF – so you don’t want to discuss the crimes – ie the facts on the ground.”

Let us follow the facts on the ground, on your trail (not mine). A bunch of men from Pakistani background groomed and abused young girls. It was a quick way to get their rocks off. Young white girls would drop their knickers in an instant for the opportunity for a ride in a Toyota Corolla and a swig of vodka. Get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.

Deception and rape are not my idea of a good Friday night out. Very, very few people think that way. And fortunately it does not happen often. (The voluntary organisations who have spoken about these crimes have not suggested racial profiling as a solution.)

I have mentioned several ways why the “statistical” evidence is flawed. Most groomers act individually and conceal membership of groups.

@40 Just Visiting: “Can you err, give us more facts detail on your view there?”

It is a sample of 17 groups over a span of 12 years.

@ Charlieman

So not even one straight answer to perfectly straight questions then.

“There are no statistics for “group grooming”. It is not a specific offence.”

The two main offences that are prevalent as an end result in the issue we are debating here are abduction and sexual activity with a child, and with at least more then one offender involved.

Many cases also include offences relating to supply of alcohol and or drugs to minors too, but the first two are the definition of the end result of the process.

We have figures for these resulting from research.

“The “statistics” produced by the Times add up to nothing.”

From the research, out of 56 convicted for crimes pertaining to this debate, 53 were Asian. Of which 50 were Muslim. Of which a majority were of Pakistani descent.

“I did not refer to the police officers quoted by you, because police officers and voluntary workers often talk double-speak with the press.”

Rubbish.

And I asked you if you were claiming that these detectives were making up racist stories rather then relying their inside professional knowledge. What is your answer?

And the second detective I referred too isn’t even speaking to the press at all. He is relaying his direct experience as a former head of special unit dealing with the very crimes we are debating.

“The words that appear in the Guardian will not be those printed in the Mail.”

They haven’t appeared at all in the Guardian as far I can see. But if they did appear in a different form it would be purely because they were changed by a journalist and not because what these detectives have said has magically altered in print.

“I am not really interested in what people think in gut reaction. I am interested in nuts and bolts”

These detectives are relaying their experience of the issue, and the second detective I refer to (and link to the interview) is telling you his direct knowledge having headed a special unit investigating these very crimes. So I ask you again: Is he just a liar making up stories because he is racist?

“I have said enough about Ann Cryer.”

All you have said is that you were offended by her comments. You haven’t explained if she too is just a racist agitator making up stories rather then doing her job and bringing to light an issue that she has experience with through her constituency and is duty bound as MP to speak out on having had significant enough numbers of her constituency raise the issue.

And just imagine how offended you might be if you were one of those constituents and it was happening to your child, and no one did anything about it for fear of being branded racist.

“As for Mohammed Shafiq, he makes a fair comment. Investigation of crime and any prosecution should not be determined by race.”

He was, as you well know commenting on the issue we are debating and thus confirming its existence.

Perhaps some further comments by the same gentlemen might help you understand better:

““The Ramadhan Foundation believes that is practice of grooming white teenagers into prostitution is a problem that needs to be dealt with openly and without any fears. Having heard at first hand the effect this has on young girls and their families I am determined that we speak out and ensure that the communities recognise the problem and work to eradicate it.”

THE grooming of white teenagers by predominantly Asian gangs is evil and abhorrent. Islam forbids these evil crimes…

They [inams] should be promoting that white teenagers are no less valuable than their own daughters or sisters.”

“Although there have been some cases of white men being involved in this sexual exploitation of young girls, most of the perpetrators are Muslim..

These people think that white girls have fewer morals and are less valuable than our girls.”

And from Mr Manzoor Moghul, chairman of the Muslim Forum:

“Offenders are under the misapprehension white girls are easy prey. The way they dress, their culture, makes them easy pickings

Free thinkers recognise that the multiculture experiment imposed upon us has been a disaster and the problems arising from this will only get worse. The approach of the authorities for some years now has been damage limitation.

We have the liberal elite to thank for setting Britain on the path to inevitable conflict, communalism and fracture.

What is most revealing about this matter however is how it illustrates how the cowardly liberal establishment depise the white working class. How many sisters and daughters have been raped due to this issue being swept under the carpet and not being dealt with head on years ago.

48. Anon E Mouse

@33 – Jon

The cases that have ben highlighted and proven openly in a court of law have predominately involved men “of Pakistani origin/heritage”.

That is a fact and whether you like it or not doesn’t alter its validity.

Jack Straw is stating an opinion which happens to be a fact – why do you consider the truth to be racist?

If I say all the perpetrators who blew up the London Underground on 7/7 were Muslims it doesn’t make it racist to say it. Because it’s true.

Why should Straw be condemned for telling the truth?

@46 justin:

“The two main offences that are prevalent as an end result in the issue we are debating here are abduction and sexual activity with a child, and with at least more then one offender involved.”

In the majority of cases, defendants are prosecuted separately. There might not be enough evidence to demonstrate collusion or conspiracy. Thus Bloke A is prosecuted on one set of offences and Bloke B is prosecuted for another set. Conducting separate trials means that prosecution evidence cannot be challenged by a co-defendant.

I am not aware of anyone counting up the number of girls and boys abused by groups. You are probably correct that the information is there in the system, but nobody is adding it up. Certainly not the Times.

“The “statistics” produced by the Times add up to nothing.”

Yes. Get over it. Statistics require numbers and there aren’t enough numbers in the Times story to make more than a guess.

Opinions, opinions, opinions… I prefer to listen to opinions when they are based on fact. I’ll listen to police officers spouting their views. Occasionally, I can cope with sociologists.

But I like facts most of all.

I rarely accuse anyone of lying. Most of the time, people are presenting an opinion without enough evidence, so they are not lying.

“The cases that have ben highlighted and proven openly in a court of law have predominately involved men “of Pakistani origin/heritage”

Predominantly?

In your previous post ALL of these sex offenders were Pakistanis. Now they’re only ‘predominantly’ so.

The thing is, Labour didn’t actually flat out tell either lie. Had they done so the law would’ve got them. Instead they concentrate on hinting, smearing and implying.

After that all they had to do was to wait for the fevered imaginations of their bigoted base to fill in the gaps.

And you have, haven’t you?

@ Charlieman

Again, not one straight answer to very straight questions.

The issue has been spelled out to you by people who you cannot simply dismiss as racists. They have been very clear in their knowledge of the issue and what it entails.

So was the detective who was a former head of special unit dealing exclusively with these offences. What he said wasn’t opinion; he was stating his direct experience.

So either he is telling the truth and this problem exists, or he isn’t and he is a criminal inciting racial hatred. It really is that simple. Which one is it? And if it’s the latter, what do you intend to do about it?

Same with the first detective, same with Ms Cryer and the same with the two Asian and Muslim gentlemen quoted above.

In fact it is the same with The Times report too.

But I do find your views on white girls extremely interesting:

“Young white girls would drop their knickers in an instant for the opportunity for a ride in a Toyota Corolla and a swig of vodka. Get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.”

Taking aside the fact that what occurred was the rape of children, you are clearly opining your belief that white girls behave differently from girls of other ethnicities. You have decided to identify their ethnicity specifically in passing comment on what you claim is white children’s promiscuity and ease of sexual conduct, and therefore it must follow that you are also claiming that children of other ethnicities have a different trajectory, which could only be borne from factors of either genetics and / or culture.

And yet you claim you are opposing this very idea.

I notice also that you fail to find fault with the offensively stereotypical cartoon portrayal of white Englishmen as tattooed skinhead accusers of ethnic minorities in the Guardian article linked too as well.

So aside from an aversion to giving straight answers, I suspect we are also witnessing an odd propensity to double standards.

The greatest realisation I ever had when I was trying to figure out our current political reality is that leftists, or the originators of leftist politics in the modern context, are not misguided ideologues as I had supposed, they are in fact dissimulating tribalists.

This article proves that point neatly.

The statistics the Times story are from an as yet unpublished study by the Jill Dando Institute, so it’s impossible to say for sure exactly what they mean.

According to the update at the bottom of the Ben Goldacre post ‘If You Don’t Link To Primary Sources You Are Dead To Me’ (can’t get the damn link to copy properly on my damn iPhone), the Jill Dando Institute leaked the study to the times, and feel these stats have been taken out of context.

with all the white english men in jail, one wonders why nobody ever asks if there is a culture among them of violence and shit?

and I say this as a white english man…

criminals are criminals, there ethnicity is irrelevant, if there is a problem for any group in society, then it is a problem for ALL of society and one that ALL of society must deal with, scapegoating one group wont solve anything and will likely just cause problems of its own

“scapegoating one group wont solve anything”

Although it will win you the odd election.

“The greatest realisation I ever had . . . ”

That preamble was never going to end well, was it?

And, according to the last comment on that Goldacre post (google the title, you’ll find it):

“They [the Times] said that there was no evidence for racial targeting, and in fact minority women were a higher proportion of victims than in the area’s population as a whole.”

@ Charlieman

“Young white girls would drop their knickers in an instant for the opportunity for a ride in a Toyota Corolla and a swig of vodka. Get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.”

You’re a racist and a disgusting bigot.

In one broad stroke you’ve labelled an entire gender of an entire diverse race of people spanning mulitudinous backgrounds and proclivities.

And you have the cheek to say you’re a liberal.

@51 justin

My answers to your points are quite clear. Perhaps it is your choice not to understand them.

A police officer may present an argument based on direct experience. That is opinion based on a small number of events, not evidence of cultural inclination to rape and child abuse.

Please do not assume my views about the proclivity of white girls to drop their knickers. In the words that you quote, I was projecting the hypothesis proposed by Just Visiting. If my argument passed you by, my apologies and thanks for the opportunity for clarification. I’ll echo what I said in that post, however: “Deception and rape are not my idea of a good Friday night out.”

You are correct that I have not expressed disagreement with skinhead portrayal in a Guardian cartoon. I am not employed by the Guardian to defend their cartoons and paid little attention to that point. But now that you have mentioned it, yes, the portrayal of “white Englishmen as tattooed skinhead accusers of ethnic minorities” is not defensible by me.

60. Charlieman

@58 Concerned: “You’re a racist and a disgusting bigot.”

Thank you for the kind words.

I usually make an effort to look at context before blowing off steam. I read the entire post and the argument surrounding it.

Go back and read point 44 by me. Just make the effort to read it.

61. Charlieman
62. Chaise Guevara

“I would suggest that the author here should be condemning the actions of these criminals for bringing shame on his people”

Who are his people, and what should they be ashamed about? If you mean “his fellow rapists”, then fair enough, but then they should already be ashamed. I really, really hope you don’t mean “other Muslims who are tainted by his actions”, because that would be unpleasant.

63. Chaise Guevara

@ 61

Good article. thank you (although I’m now condemned to an evening of sauntering around Bad Science).

64. Abdul Aziz

Whilst it is indeed hurtful that people of Pakistani origin are being targeted yet again, in the 1960’s it was Paki-Bashing and now it become fashionable again.

Both the police and the media need to realize that the best way to obtain support from the “community” is to declare and recognise the crime and criminals and not stigmatize people of Pakistani origin.

In Pakistan this sort of “grooming” and sexual abuse occurs all the time, gang rapes by wealthier land owners against peasant girls is common, every major city and medium size town in Pakistan has a thriving brother frequented by men, the pimps who control these brothels often abduct and kidnap girls from other regions in Pakistan, many of the pimps have “imported ” girls into the UK as their wives.

We need to see more exposure of the sufferings of girls imported in the UK as “wives” who are forced into prostitution,

The men and boys highlighted in these “grooming ” cases are often the sons of village pimps from Pakistan and indeed it is in the pimps “cultural heritage” to abuse women, they will use the “social breakdown” in any society to justify their own criminal and deviant behaviour, to them it is merely a business. These particular men are as much a problem in Pakistan as they are in England, in Pakistan they patronise politicians to protect themselves against police, in fact they “buy” the local police, it will not be long before they start doing the same here.

65. billy blag

@ Adul 64 – oh dear, how you suffer in the UK. You are free to return to the ‘land of the pure’. In fact I think the state sponsors this.

Everywhere in the world that Islam interfaces with other cultures conflict and tension arises. Russia, India, China, Thailand, Phillipines, Europe, Nigeria….I would welcome anyone to suggest an example where an Islamic minority (or indeed a majority) are able to live in harmony?

The terrible problems that the Pakistani community have imported into the UK were predictable.

Finally – I get so tired of the “you can’t blame an entire community etc etc” – the fact is that ‘communities’ and ‘racial groups’ have behavioural propensities that vary widely. It is evident that a very unpleasant behavioural propensitiy (which has been suspected by insiders for years) has been forced into the daylight.

I live in a rural area of Britain. I know of many awful acts against women in this area. The use of doping drugs and gang-rape. A blind eye seems to turn to this by the authorities. There are very few Asian people living in this locality, so they cannot be blamed here. We must all educate our young people to stop making use of the weak.

67. Chaise Guevara

@ 65

“Everywhere in the world that Islam interfaces with other cultures conflict and tension arises. Russia, India, China, Thailand, Phillipines, Europe, Nigeria….I would welcome anyone to suggest an example where an Islamic minority (or indeed a majority) are able to live in harmony?”

Well, can you name a state where people in general are able to live in harmony?

68. Mike Killingworth

[64] Abdul, do you regard Pakistan as a “failed state”? It has that reputation in this country, while Bagla Desh is perceived as more functional. I stress these are perceptions, not necessarily realities.

One difficulty perhaps is that people of Pakistani origin feel that self-esteem should be protected in all circumstances, whereas in white culture it is only thought to be justified if it can be shown to be grounded in reality. Indeed, the latter approach is frequently seen by non-white activists more generally to be a “white paradigm” which non-whites have a “cultural duty” to reject.

69. Chaise Guevara

@ 68

“One difficulty perhaps is that people of Pakistani origin feel that self-esteem should be protected in all circumstances, whereas in white culture it is only thought to be justified if it can be shown to be grounded in reality.”

How does that square with all the British and American reality shows where people are constantly told how special they are, regardless of evidence to the contrary?

Ann @ 66:

You wouldn’t mind letting us know the postcode, would you? Then we can avoid it.

Jack Straw has a point, this is old news but he is using this towards some sort of political gaining because why hasn’t this been mentioned before? Again, this is OLD, OLD news.

If any of yuo can be bothered and I can see most of you can’t, you will see stuff like this was happening for aages in Leeds and Bradford area. Even Panorama did a program about this a few years ago. My friends mate was in the police in Burnley and this was an issue with the police but from I was told, the police never went further with dealing with why it was happening. Did they really care enough-these are the lost kids in care and ‘those asians’? or Where they scared of repurcussions about racism? Or a bit of both if we’re honest…

So although Straw is right, why now eh? But I guess in a cynical way, we must be thankful he is talking about this, just like when we know a celebrity is being cynical by using a charity to seem virtous and caring when we know it’s all PR.

I completely agree with a poster up there who mentioned that the Left are really messing up in these situations and are making these girls more in danger by trying to make these people out to seem racist against Pakistanis.

This is why I left the Labour party and all that ‘left’ sanctimonious thinking ways. Everything was so black and white. I remember when I used to try and talk to my lefty friends about issues of race within the black community-afro carribeans against africans etc-,they would just have glazed eyes because all they cared about was that blacks were being treated like crap by whites. It was just one agenda and the funny thing is, they always saw me as a victim because of the colour of my skin, seldom interested in actually understanding race.

Suffice to say I stay clear from people like that. Just like I do from right-wingers who live in a bubble where darkies are the enemy who scrounge from the state, not all those white people I constantly see unemployed or on the dole where I live. All the darkies tend to take jobs in factories or as cleaners but again, these tend to be certain Africans.

Point is both Right and Left are NOT interested in really understanding race full stop, let alone race issues in the UK. Black on Black crime, White on White or Black on Asian etc etc.

Thing is we barely get to issues within ANY community in the UK because the right and left refuse to budge with their relentless agendas when they approach any issue to with a community.

Vaz is such a tool. He’s like Lammy. They turn on the race thing when it suits them. Both are sociopaths who have done NOTHING for their so-called communities in any fair, progressive and positive. In fact both are very socially conservative when it comes to dealing with said communities.

We’re f*cked. These people we’ve elected are so unlikeable that they prove to be the obstacles in getting anything done, so we will never have a proper honest conversation about anything cause it’s all agenda’s and ego’s.

72. Anon E Mouse

@50 – Jon

Last week, the case we discuss since Jack Staws comments arise because of it, 100% of the convictions of men drugging and gang raping white children were of Palistani heritage.

Since that is true how can I be called bigoted or the ex Home Secretary racist for telling the truth? The position you clearly advocate is one where someone else decides what is true (or otherwise) and then lies (as you are calling me bigoted) because they don’t like the truth.

Answer the big picture question Jon rather than nit picking and smearing people in a typical New Labour fashion. Have you noticed Labour lost the election Jon?

@65. billy blag

.I would welcome anyone to suggest an example where an Islamic minority (or indeed a majority) are able to live in harmony?

Off the top of my head, Tanzania.

Off Topic-ish but another issue that is left ignored by the police regarding ‘grooming’ in the Pakistani communities, is with young disenfranchised black male in city centre areas to become muslim and blow themselves up in the name of allah. So dumb.

I was arguing with these young black ladies-university educated and all-born/bred in Lewisham who were going off on one about racism against black communities and how all their high school mates were turning to islam because of racism against blacks in society.

Where I completely agree with all the personal examples I was given, what I constanty experience and what I was seeing, we were in disagreement where they thought it was a good thing these kids were turning to islam, as it was some sort of ‘two fingers’ to the way they are treated in society.

My argument was that this is simply another form of slavery and in fact, they are shooting themselves in the foot because who wins at the end of the day? Not the disillusioned black kid who’s found dead after blowing himself up, for what and who? Both Islam and Christianity were brought to Africa hand in hand with Arabic and Western Slavery/Colonisation. They were both used to suppress and control the enslaved.

Sigh. Blacks are no more accepted in Islamic nations then they are in Western nations. Progress starts within your own community!

@6 YMT

“Godwin’s law has been invoked with this article”

I really wish that people would stop inaccurately citing Godwin in order to attempt to denigrate accurate and contextually appropriate references to The German National Socialist era.

It is an infantile but alarmingly successful form of censorship and I would hope that most people would agree that important lessons can be learned from a period notable for racial stereotyping and the highly successful manipulation of public opinion through the use of propaganda.

73. Rick Worth

Nope. Not at all. My mum will have a lot to say about that! But then my mother loves drama for the sake of drama. When I went to visit Tanzania for the first time after my dads funeral, what one needs to understand is in Africa, Islam came as part of the people colonising the countries, so like Christianity, it’s not synomymous with race. So it’s not like the Arabs are the ones who are Islamic-like here-and the Blacks are another religion. The Blacks are islamic. Thats what they grew up/born with.

So you wouldn’t have as great racial issues. It would be a religion one between Black Christians and Black Muslims.

As far as I know, the main stirrers in Tanzania are the Christians who are involved in the crazy stuff like ‘deliverance’ or ‘gay bashing’ etc. I think that could be because Tanzania was never colonised by a Western Christian nation but by an Islamic one, so Islam is deep within the fabric of the country. Where as Christianity was brought simply by the missionaries when they travelled the world spreading the word of god. England never colonised Tanzania, they did Kenya but they did defeat the Germans who colonised Tanzania and simply ‘looked after it’ so it became a common wealth colony. But it wasn’t to the same affect as other British colonies.

History lesson over! 🙂

I disagree with this article. I think the reaction to Straw’s words is being hysterical and this is from someone firmly on the left. Here I explain why.

78. Rick Worth

@ 76. Rantersparadise

Not really the point though, is it. The suggestion at 65 was that there was nowhere where Muslims could “live in harmony”.

Quote Everywhere in the world that Islam interfaces with other cultures conflict and tension arises. Unquote.

@ Charlieman

You haven’t given one straight answer to those straight questions.

Either these people are making up racist stories or their direct experience of the issue is real.

Come to that, what is your experience anyway?

How are you able to decide that a detective in charge of specialist unit dealing exclusively with these crimes is completely wrong in what he says, but you are right?

Or a senior detective in charge of entire constabulary? Or an experienced MP representing a constituency that has a high incidence of this problem?

Or the two Asian Muslim gentlemen who work everyday in these communities?
Tell us what your qualifications are that make you so such an authority on this issue?

You don’t take umbrage with the Guardians blatant ethnic stereotyping ‘because you are not paid by them’ so are you being paid to do so on this issue?

And lastly, please don’t try and pin your assessment of ‘young white girls’ and their tendency to ‘drop their knickers in an instant for the opportunity for a ride in a Toyota Corolla and a swig of vodka’ on anyone else.

You were not projecting any hypothesis or recycling any introduced material; these words were yours and yours alone.

They were the exclusive product of your own mind, and no one else’s.

80. Abdul Aziz

@65. billy blag

Indeed it is a problem here and the perpetrators should be punished, but do describe how the situation is any different from child abuse by tourists in Thailand, Sri Lanka or Ghana where the victims are young Asian or Black Children mainly between the ages of 8 years to 14 years and the perpetrators are mainly White men from England and other European countries.

Thousands of young girls from poor families are abducted and groomed for rape by White British Men and White European Men who are primarily Sex Tourists.

In Denmark there is even a legal protected body called the Danish Paedophile Society which charters planes of paedophiles under the protection of their own government to fly paeodophiles to Thailand and Sri Lanka where they abuse young boys and girls in hotels owned by their own society !

I am in no way trying to dilute the current horrific situation in the UK, but let us not forget the cover up of abuse conducted by a prominent Labour Peer (and QC) from Leceister East who groomed young boys from care-homes !

And not to overlook either this TV news report on Channel4 a few months back:

“A Channel 4 News investigation reveals that more than half of the Catholic priests convicted for child abuse and sentenced to more than a year in prison, in England and Wales since 2001, remain in the priesthood – with some still receiving financial support from the Church and living in church houses.”
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/catholic+church+abuse+paedophile+priests+remain+in+catholic+church/3767477.html

82. Anon E Mouse

@80 – Abdul Aziz

We are not discussing Catholic priests, Gary Glitter or any other sexual crime here.

All those actions are also wrong but imagine if one were to say “The issue blackens the names of all catholics”.

All that is doing is deflecting from the facts in the case that these particular crimes were perpetrated by these men and the culture in the UK seems to be that to discuss the FACTS means you may possibly be accused of racism.

Where is the free speech in that? Left leaning supporters should be advocating free speech regardless of who it upsets.

Next you’ll be telling me a Labour government wanted to bring in 90 days detention, control orders and ID cards…

“We are not discussing Catholic priests, Gary Glitter or any other sexual crime here.”

Some of us are saying that the charge of grooming vulnerable girls made against Pakistani men should be put in the wider context of sex crimes inflicted on young people.

On the matters of victim numbers and the international scale, there is a powerful case for proscribing the Catholic church to protect the young.

Belgian child abuse report exposes Catholic clergy – Paedophilia expert unveils harrowing testimony and documents cases in almost every diocese
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/10/belgium-child-abuse-catholic-church

‘Endemic’ rape and abuse of Irish children in Catholic care, inquiry finds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/

84. Anon E Mouse

@80 – Bob B

The discussion here is of a specific offence where the criminals jailed last week were of Pakistani heritage charged with drugging and gang raping children.

Everything you say is correct but look at the title of this article and lets stick to the item at hand.

It is after all what seems to be causing the offence by Jack Straws comments and by widening the debate, the author of this article is not having his specific point discussed.

It’s clear to see there are schisms forming in the left, genuine liberal ideologues are becoming ever more disenchanted by the many contradictions of the mainstream left.

Bigotry, racist paedophilia, theocratic fundamentalism and are apologised for, obfuscated, even defended, and worse denied, when they are perpetrated by a protected political class such as Muslims.

We must speak in generalities where muslims are concerned, “All people commit these crimes, and we can not single out any group”.

This was taken from an article I imagine most of you read recently in the Guardian: –

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition

“The Times investigation is based around 56 men convicted in the Midlands and north of England since 1997, 50 from Muslim backgrounds. ”

So the Guardian said it grudgingly, but they still said it, if 50 out of 56 does not constitute an issue which is “muslim” in nature, then I don’t know what does. This article tells us that we should not stereotype Pakistani Muslims as being at the centre of this issue. In a bitter irony however, the Guardian proceeds to stereotype White English people as racist in the accompanying illustration for the article.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/6/1294342286060/Suspects-001.jpg

Fine to stereotype one group of people, not fine to stereotype another. Got it.

The left however has no issue whatsoever with linking the cases of paedophilia amongst catholic bishops directly to the Christian church, and I agree with this, the issue though is that you never, ever, ever hear anyone on the mainstream left say “Yes Christian priests who commit paedophilia are to be condemned but we must remember that people of all faiths commit these crimes and they must all be condemned equally” or “There has been no conclusive study which has shown that Catholic priests are any worse offenders for paedophilia than the rest of society and should not be slandered for a problem which is pervasive across all of society”.

You never hear that do you?

No, Christians, or at least the types of Christians leftists like to criticise are fair game. Islam however is not.

So what’s the difference? Only one that anyone still capable of analytical thought can see.

A lot of people on the left will say that Islam is a religion and not a race, but the demonstrable fact is that for the left, this is a racial issue. Muslims in the UK mostly belong to ethnic minority Non-White groups. Christians, the ones that get bashed by the left that is, belong to White European groups. Non-White ethnic minority groups are a protected social class, White groups are a scapegoat class and are fair game.

So it was the left who racialised this issue, not anyone else.

Many people who are genuinely liberal and not simply Marxist ideologues or dissimulating tribalists are beginning to see these contradictions and we can only hope that from that will emerge a new, more honest, political left who do not cop put of important issues when they don’t suit their ideology.

@73

“I would welcome anyone to suggest an example where an Islamic minority (or indeed a majority) are able to live in harmony?”

“Off the top of my head, Tanzania.”

:ROFL

Thank you for making my day. I am now certain that with the vibrant kleptocracy of “Tanzania” to serve as our political model, we can surge ahead into the multi-cultural utopia where Islamic fundamentalists join forces in solidarity with militant feminists and freedom of speech activists to condemn the catholic church.

@84: “Everything you say is correct but look at the title of this article and lets stick to the item at hand.”

C’mon. A special investigation into the grooming of teens for abuse has been mooted.

I trust the course of that investigation, if it is launched, won’t be compromised from the very start by excluding from its scope abuse by Catholic priests as that would look like a cover-up and irreparably damage the credibility of the eventual findings of the investigation.

88. soothsayer

No statistics have been given. Aside from a new type of offence known as “on-street” grooming that isn’t recognized by law. To conclude from this is disingenuous.

89. Just Visiting

hey LC feminists – where are your views ?

Did I miss any comments? Or does this thread follow a not uncommon thread on LC, that feminists seem reluctant to express views abou the (mis)treatment of women when the perpretators are Muslims?

JV

PS would have expected a statement like Charlieman’s to have triggered some response:

“Young girls would drop their knickers in an instant …. get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.”

90. Just Visiting

doh – need an Edit function here…

That should have said:

“Young girls of skin-colour-X would drop their knickers in an instant …. get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.”

91. Anon E Mouse

@87 – Bob B

Absolutely agree. It should have been done when it happened – let’s do it now – it is long overdue. It is the reason my Irish catholic mother no longer attends mass regularly.

But that is not the case at hand.

The case is of a specific offence where the criminals jailed last week were of Pakistani heritage charged with drugging and gang raping children.

By throwing all sexual offences against children into the mix (and these cases are a minority compared to crimes of this nature from non Pakistani’s) it dilutes the very situation that caused Jack Straw to make his comments and it effectively stifles free speech on the matter.

Already I’ve been described here as bigoted, which I most certainly am not but how do I defend myself without causing offence?

92. Just Visiting

Anon

You are doing the right thing – and it is only the weak defence of the those who are unwilling to make the effort to debate the reality of the world when the facts contradict their worldview, who throw out accusations of racism to stifle debate.

No one here has denied the truth of what Abdul wrote at 64:
“In Pakistan this sort of “grooming” and sexual abuse occurs all the time, gang rapes by wealthier land owners against peasant girls is common, every major city and medium size town in Pakistan has a thriving brother frequented by men, the pimps who control these brothels often abduct and kidnap girls from other regions in Pakistan, many of the pimps have “imported ” girls into the UK as their wives.”

So no big surprise surely, when such patterns of abuse of weak women are also followed by some Pakistanis in the UK.

And in the UK news last month:
“Pakistan’s rape victim who dared to fight back…Pakistani schoolgirl Kainat Soomro was gang raped for four days, at the age of 13. Four years later, she is still fighting for justice…”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8224111/Pakistans-rape-victim-who-dared-to-fight-back.html

@ JV

hey LC feminists – where are your views ?

Have to say I have also been struck by the absence of vitriol from the radical feminists on this thread.

When John b is reckless enough to suggest that Julian Assange may not be guilty of trumped up sex crimes having slept with a couple of worldly wise Swedish groupies he is vilified.

When a gang of men of second or third generation Pakistani extraction are proven to have systematically raped vulnerable under age working class girls there is relative silence.

Strange indeed.

94. Just Visiting

Rick
so Tanzania a model of “IsIamic minority (or indeed a majority) are able to live in harmony”

A quick google showed:

“Christians on the predominantly Muslim islands of Pemba and the Comoros archipelago are beaten, detained and banished for their faith, according to church leaders who travel regularly to the Indian Ocean isles off the east coast of Africa.” Dec 2008:

” Muslims stop building of church, build mosque in its place” Aug 2010

“Muslims torch two church buildings in Zanzibar” July 2009

There is evidence of ancient historic traditions of religious prostitution in many cultures so its survival in mutated forms today in less developed economies should not be surprising:
http://www.fact-index.com/r/re/religious_prostitution.html

@94. Just Visiting

Ignoring the obvious point that The Comoros aren’t in Tanzania, this link refers mainly to a row about a Muslim preacher converting to Christianity. Is this Christians “living in harmony” by proselytizing?

The fact is that most religious people in Tanzania are moderate. The Constitution provides for freedom of religion. Foreign Christian Missionaries are left to do their thaaang and as Wikipedia puts it “…there have been cases of increased tension between secular and fundamentalist Muslims as the latter have called for Muslims to adopt a stricter interpretation of Islam in their daily lives.

We should celebrate this success.

97. Chaise Guevara

@ 89 Just Visiting

“PS would have expected a statement like Charlieman’s to have triggered some response”

And they STILL haven’t responded, even when you childishly quote-mined it and cited it out of context like that? What’s wrong with the world today?

98. Chaise Guevara

@ 91 Anon E Mouse

“By throwing all sexual offences against children into the mix (and these cases are a minority compared to crimes of this nature from non Pakistani’s) it dilutes the very situation that caused Jack Straw to make his comments and it effectively stifles free speech on the matter.”

I think that’s the very point: by ‘diluting’ it, i.e. putting in in perspective with similar crimes, we show it’s less clear that this is a problem with Pakistanis specifically. Although if you’re trying to get another point across, I understand that whataboutery can be irritating.

99. Labour Loyalist

Let’s just agree that Jack Straw is right.

People like Sunny and Iman probably ARE rapists. It isn’t their fault – given their heritage they can hardly help preying on poor, innocent white girls.

Let’s just be thankful that they have the self awareness to vote for Labour which knows the threat they pose and can help them (and us) by locking them up without any of that pesky PC rule of law nonsense.

The shadow chancellor may not know how much NI contributions are, but by God we know not to let Pakis touch white girls !

100. Anon E Mouse

@98 – Chaise Guevara

My point is that there are many sexual crimes, usually perpetrated by white men but in this minority type of offence, it is one which is carried out by man of Pakistani origin.

I agree one shouldn’t smear all men of Pakistani heritage with the same brush – I’m not but to be prevented of mentioning the facts in this case, narrowly defined in truth, because of some cultural sensitivity is nuts.

It’s also the title of the article we are responding to…

(This blog sure is lively fella!)

101. Bored in Kavagasau

From the writers’s blog, she lived in KSA for a good deal of her life. Could Iman write an article about church architecture in KSA catering for the ~1.5 million, mostly Catholic, Filipinos living there.

And finally, call me a doe-eyed idealistic twenty-something, but my horror at the gross injustices of this world move me to write – because really, that’s all I can do.

Quite.

102. Shatterface

I’ll leave the racial aspects of this issue to others for now but it’s clear that anyone who uses terms like ‘testosterone fueled’ is a pig-ignorant prick who knows fuck all about testosterone.

This news in the press today is the indisputable explanation for all this unacceptable sex stuff:

“CARROTS can do more than just improve night vision – they can make people sexier. Boffins at Bristol University found people with a yellow skin hue from eating carrots and plums were perceived as healthy and attractive.”
http://www.sundaymercury.net/fun-games-online/crazy-world/2011/01/09/it-s-official-carrots-make-people-sexier-66331-27952806/

The evidence-based policy implications are clear enough: carrots must be banned.

I think two factors play a major part in what Jack Straw said.

First – By-Elections are around the corner
Second – Most Asian (including majority Pakistani) nationals switched their votes from Labour to Lim-Dem – so Jack Straw has given them the boot by playing the racial card in the hope of winning more white votes.

This guy needs a reality check as there is no statistics to back up his claims – he has to take responsibility for his words and statement – where exactly did he get his information from?

How would a posh women from a boarding school,whos not lived outside the confines of academia,know anything about the lives of working class white girls or working class Asian lads for that matter in West Yorkshire and Lancs?.
Standard liberal cv she has. No wonder sundial and wetfart left let her write here.
As with Jesus of Assange,you can more or less get away with being a sex pest if you have the right politics or have brown skin.

106. electro-kevin

Forgetting the sexual element, let’s consider that Mr Straw seems to indicate that there may be a serious issue of racialism – in just about the most hideous form – against white girls.

Had this been the other way around and whites were abusing Asian girls the Left would have been howling it from the roof tops and there would have been rioting in the streets from the minorities affected – may I say rightly so.

It seems to me, Imam Qureshi, that you’d prefer us all to shut up about it. Well that’s just plain unfair.

107. Just Visiting

Chaise

Fair enough, you feel I ‘childishly quote-mined’ – but the overalll point remains, that it is note-worthy that the LC feminists have not commented here.

Do you recall how vocal they were when the thread concerning the rape of women who it was suggested might have, through their dress sense, been ‘asking for it’.

Charlieman’s ‘get them into your car and they are yours’ has resonances of ‘they were asking for it’.

Grooming and our ignoble tradition of racialising crime
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition

There’s a truly long tradition of historic English rhymes which smear the reputation of indigenous ethnic groups and places. Consider this English nursery rhyme going back to the 18th century with anti-Welsh lyrics:

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy’s house, Taffy wasn’t in;
I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taffy_was_a_Welshman

This rhyme about parts of historic Surrey is of ancient vintage – Sutton on the downs is naturally dry country for sheep rearing whereas the Cashalton ponds, fed by the river Wandle, were good places for cattle to water: Croydon has a long history of fairs and markets going back to medieval times, the sort of events likely to attract pretty girls, while Mitcham Common was a regular camping site for travellers.

Sutton for mutton
Carshalton for beef
Croydon for a pretty girl
Mitcham for a thief

Bob B
I have to say a rather obvious and uninspiring bit of history. Liberals always used the ‘recurrence of history’ argument to not face the facts.
Id like to go back to the authors experience of lumpen Asian attitudes by a section of Pakistani British in the north. I doubt ex barding school girl,alumni of cheltenam ladies collage knows the vulgarity ,the excessive obession with white slags V pious Asian girls. Why would she?.Do ex alumni of cheltenam ladies get plied with vodka and speed taken to druids altar in keighley and get fingerfucked in the back seat of the car ,by lumpen peice of drug-dealing scum?.Passed around the family ,raped by fat uncles.buggered by naveed,taken by home in his graceless car?
How would she?
Shes lives in a incestuous world of toffs.liberalsmillionaires,Blog/twitterrartis probably passes a spilff with laura penny and shares a pimms with clare soloman.

110. the a&e charge nurse

The OP states “There is no evidence or research to support these assumptions” (about there being a specific problem for a particular group – in this case Pakistani men).

Yet in todays Gruniard it is reported a gang of men have been arrested in Rochdale.
“All the arrested men are of Asian heritage [9 all told] and all of the 14 girls identified as potential victims and aged between 13 and 15 are white”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jan/11/nine-arrested-sex-abuse-rochdale

Do these new arrests (accepting, of course, that the accused are just that at the moment) shed any further light on the questions raised by Iman?

111. Ben Graham

The turn towards ad hominem arguments on this blog is depressing. It seems to me that Iman has raised a number of points which we are at liberty to critically discuss. However, the points raised by the article seem to have become submerged beneath two virulent strains of discussion.

First is the fundamentally emotional breed of argument that stems from a perceived injustice in the public debate – the injustice being that it is seemingly unacceptable to accuse minorities of racially-motivated activities of any kind. This foot-stamping often occurs in England, but (once berated by the more parental parts of the culture) is just as frequently transformed into the second strain of discussion that this blog has adopted, which is the empirical or fact-based line of argument. Roughly, this states that, if indeed the facts show that young white women are being targeted by pakistani men, then why can we not say so?

Looking through various remarks above, there is a general mix of these two reactions, some hoping in good faith to further an ‘objective’ inquiry, some hoping simply to vent their frustration. But most strike me as beside the point. The issues raised by the writer are rather different. She seems to be forwarding a discussion about the public’s very access to the facts, the terms of the debate, and the undeniable racial prejudice necessary for the current discussion even to take hold. For example, Jack Straw preceded his comments by saying that a large number of sex offenders were white men, why then draw a further distinction between them and the group of men he went on to mention? If it was on the basis of some statistical evidence, it is the democratic duty of writers like Iman to question the parameters of the data set and its method of collection. A point she, in fact, raises.

Where is the discussion of the issues raised by the article? Largely, but completely, absent. Instead there prevails an ovebearing cluttering of the issue by emotional responses, shrouded in ideas of evidence and fair debate, neither of which can take place until the basic socio-political conditions of the discussion have first been made explicit. This, I believe, was part of the writer’s intention here and has been mostly ignored or engulfed in discursive mess. That is deeply ironic and a shame.

Finally, consider the chronology of the blog itself. Early opposition to Iman’s view was present, lively, forceful and mannered. Recent posts contain much more vitriol and bombast towards her personally. What interests me is that the increased aggression seemingly coincided with the discovery that Iman is a woman rather than a man, as was assumed by some early contributors.

Quite.

The socio-economic influence of the ex public schoolie matters a lot. Ill ask again how can someone who lives in this rarefied academic bubble know what gos on in the terraces and estates of Bradford/Rochdale and lives of working class Asians and working class whites in de-industralised towns?.It seems liberals have already used the standard tropes of ‘white men rape as well’ to the accusations of racism which the left/libarals seem to drop in every argument. Your smug liberal condescension seems to be dripping through

This accusation of “racism” here is a total red herring surely.

As far as I’ve heard, the real issue is of Muslims seeing non-Muslim girls (black or white, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or Atheist) as kaffirs just gagging to be exploited.

That’s the real issue that rape apologists are desperately trying to avoid.

@ 113.

Indeed. I would go further and point out that these allegations – along with the more recent events in Blackburn – appear to concern Sunni Muslims… to my knowledge, Shia Muslims haven’t been implicated in any of these goings on – maybe something to do with the concept of temporary marriage that many Shia adhere to?

115. the a&e charge nurse

[111] “Instead there prevails an ovebearing cluttering of the issue by emotional responses, shrouded in ideas of evidence and fair debate, neither of which can take place until the basic socio-political conditions of the discussion have first been made explicit” – care to have a stab at telling us what the ‘basic socio-political conditions’ are?

If a thread fails to address key issues (raised in the OP) surely it is more useful if the person saying so tries to enlighten posters rather than complain about deficiencies in the responses of other commentators?

116. Ben Graham

(115)

You make a fair point. I might have expanded on my point. Just as a start, I would say that the public acceptance as valid or important the statistic which started this debate reveals social and political conditions tainted by racial prejudice.

The reason I say this starts with the idea that there is a distinction between a statistical correlation and a direct causal relation. For example, 100% of people with kidneys have hearts; but possessing kidneys does not cause people to have hearts. Relating this to the case in question, it would also be true that, since all humans are mammals, 100% of rapists have hair. So, if we are going to pay attention to statistical correlation and probe for causal relation, we should seek to ask what about having hair causes people to rape.

But we would dismiss this as absurd. Why? Because our prior understanding of what having hair means strikes it off the list of possible causes of this kind of behaviour in humans. Why is this not the case for a predicate such as ‘being Pakistani’? Why do we even for a moment consider that ‘being Pakistani’ might causally relate to ‘being a rapist’? Even though Jack Straw prefaced his comments as he did, he didn’t for a moment imply that being white is causally related to being a rapist. Why not? He, and many others, seem to have a racialised preconception of a certain class of sexual offenders in this case that cause them to overlook the real causes of sexual violence – causes that Iman alluded to in her article.

There is an extra layer of absurdity here, too. The idea of ‘being Pakistani’ is not a simple fact like ‘having hair’. Notions of race, nationality, culture, etc. are far too complicated to bind together and then link to something like sexually violent behaviour without grossly collapsing what it means to be a person with a racial, national and personal identity. That is what is quite revealing about the public willingness to accept this kind of statistic: it requires the homogenisation of a large group of people based on racialised preconceptions. Further evidence of how this racialisation is cannily (perhaps unconsciously) inserted into the statistic so as to support a racialised conclusion was also provided in the article.

So, in terms of socio-political conditions, we can say that a literally meaningless statistic was forwarded into the public domain and then accepted as a fact to be explained in causal terms even though it is even more ridiculous and unhelpful to an understanding of this issue as saying ‘100% of rapists have hair.’ The only way this is able to happen is because of preconceptions about the term ‘Pakistani’ and what it means, not because of any explanatory value offered. So Iman is right to point out the racial component of the current debate; it is fierce, silly, and part of the socio-political preconditions of the debate itself.

I think whats at steak here is the left/liberal soul. As committed anti-racists and soft relativists not one tone of doubt about the negative aspect of a non-white culture,especially as that culture as been on the receiving hand of hate and bigotry can be accepted or will be accepted.
Accept negative aspects as well as the positives.
Thats proper equality

118. Charlieman

@110 the a&e charge nurse: “Do these new arrests (accepting, of course, that the accused are just that at the moment) shed any further light on the questions raised by Iman?”

This set of prosecutions (I believe that it is the third associated with the case) demonstrates little new. We are informed that the group of abusers may be larger than has been proved in previous prosecutions.

However, the number of cases does not increase, only the number of accused abusers. More significantly, the number of groomers has not increased. This new set of prosecutions may have been dependent on previous successes. The newly accused may be guilty of a crime and the groomers committed a more evil one.

As I have stated almost ad infinitum, 17 cases over a period of 12 years does not add up to a trend. But ignore the statistics if you wish.

Grooming of young girls and boys, particularly those in care, is an acknowledged problem by social service providers. Thankfully, many groomers are apprehended and prosecuted. It is probably fair to say that most paedophiles act singly and are more likely to be apprehended when they share information. Sharing information is how the majority of “strangers” are trapped (exception for children reporting abuse by family, carer etc). Group grooming is unusual. If you have a strong stomach, you can search newspaper archives for cases of family grooming (ie sharing a child for abuse within an extended family).

What is most informational to me (about the case that resulted in the guilty verdict for grooming) is that the perpetrators — the groomers and secondary abusers — believed that they were going to get away with it.

119. Charlieman

In point 44, I proffered a suggestion that debate would descend to “Young white girls would drop their knickers in an instant for the opportunity for a ride in a Toyota Corolla and a swig of vodka. Get the girl in the back of the car and she’s yours.”

@109 Meatpie: “Do ex alumni of cheltenam ladies get plied with vodka and speed taken to druids altar in keighley and get fingerfucked in the back seat of the car ,by lumpen peice of drug-dealing scum?.Passed around the family ,raped by fat uncles.buggered by naveed,taken by home in his graceless car?”

We cant all be objectively woolly like you charlieboy
The mind of a professed left/liberal,blowing the fog from the thick sheeple who see rape based on race (and this case is at its most pristine) , and treats as a lie and a figment of a bigots imagination.
And theres no such word as ‘infomational’

@120 Meatpie: “We cant all be objectively woolly like you charlieboy
The mind of a professed left/liberal,blowing the fog from the thick sheeple who see rape based on race (and this case is at its most pristine) , and treats as a lie and a figment of a bigots imagination.
And theres no such word as ‘infomational’”

I appreciate that this is difficult to understand, but I do not seek a world where everyone follows my thoughts. I have learned from comments here on LC and enjoy debate. I enjoy people who think.

I have followed comments and links to pertinent debates. I have not met any solid evidence that Pakistani men are more inclined than others in the UK to groom young women for abuse.

Yonks ago, I quoted JM Keynes :”When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” My opinion is unchanged because the facts have not changed.

Informational is an adjective, directly derived from information. In Chambers, it appears between Infl. and ingeminate. In your dictionary it may vary.

The Roy Cropper of liberal conspiracy

123. the a&e charge nurse

[118] “Group grooming is unusual” – yes, and all the more disturbing when a group target children as young as 13 (although as I understand it paedophilia was NOT the main driver).

I think the problem in a nutshell is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to extrapolate further given the infrequency of such incidents – rather like the recent thread on the relationship between Palin and the killings in Tucson any serious analysis soon runs into a cul de sac?

Its seems that what the left/libs are saying about the culture of violence that led to offing of gifford could be applied to this. Yet for some reason one is mentioned and not the other.
If the philosophy of vitriolic Republicanism can led to a white man shooting a senator why cant a religious creed led to rape and abuse.
Is it because one are yank and white the other brown and exotic?

125. Just Visiting

Well done Meatpie

You captured exactly the bias that sadly many here on LC show.

The different treatment is not due to skin colour of the victim IMHO

It’s that many here have a world view that denies the possibility that some religions (or cultures impacted by them) cause ‘some people to do bad things – and are not willing to even discuss that possibility.

Or more precisely, replace ‘some religions’ with ‘non-christian religions: because LC’s archive shows in fact great willingness to criticise the actions of christian groups – and goes beyond valid sensible criticism, to seek out whacky, nut-job unrepresentative ones, and discuss their shortcomings

(eg the flat-earth believing group..or the USA Pastor who threatened to ….errr….well, just burn some books, some Qurans. No violence, no rape, no deaths…. just a bonfire.

I think querashi would scurrying straight back to blog/academia/thinktank land if ever spent more than two minutes with a small section of the 18 to 27 yr old Asian lads up here.Hardly the hight of liberal sophistication,more tupac crossed with the crossbow cannibal.

@39. Just Visiting

“So why the heck did your post itself not start with a paragraph [clarifying you are not defending rapists]. Did you give it so little thought before you posted it?”

Nowhere in this article does Iman give the impression he is defending the rapists…does jumping to other conclusions not say more about the reader than the writer?


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Liberal Conspiracy

    Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases? http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  2. Clint David Samuel

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  5. Sim-O

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  6. Chantelle West

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  7. Lanie Ingram

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  8. Oasis Caretaker

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  9. Pauline Hammerton

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  10. 123webzoneme

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  11. Iman Qureshi

    My article on @libcon: Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases? http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  12. sunny hundal

    If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  13. Moonbootica

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  14. Ma

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ FFS

  15. Once Were Radicals

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  16. Simon Pooni

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  17. Ali B

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  18. Simon Pooni

    Shit! Oi @peatreebojangle! They're onto us! RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown + from a village, you must be a sex pest. http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  19. Katharine S Russell

    http://bit.ly/ejcPgJ VERY powerful article on @libcon about today's right-wingfest on Pakistani men in grooming cases.

  20. Moira

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  21. Mal

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  22. Matthew Moore

    Superb. RT @ImanQureshi: My article on @libcon: Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases? http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  23. Chris Hughes

    RT @calamitykate: http://bit.ly/ejcPgJ VERY powerful article on @libcon about today's right-wingfest on Pakistani men in grooming cases.

  24. 'oph

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  25. Bathtubgin

    Why are all Pakistani men are being smeared in the sex-grooming cases? | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/TEN77Cj via @libcon

  26. Demsey Abwe

    RT @Sunny_Hundal If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  27. Mark Ottewell

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  28. MD-G

    RT @sunny_hundal: If you're brown and from a village, you must be a sex pest. @DAaronovitch says so, must be true http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  29. Out of England

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  30. Alex

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  31. Spir.Sotiropoulou

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  32. Snivelling Coward

    http://is.gd/koVOc nice piece on libcon on the Asian males preying on white girls crap.

  33. Mili

    . @ImanQureshi has some thoughts on the coverage of the "Asian men grooming white girls" story http://bit.ly/hJAWLp

  34. sunny hundal

    @pperrin that is debunked here http://bit.ly/hksJWJ

  35. Emma Sadleir

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  36. Ministry of Truth » Blog Archive » Asian Gangs and Out-group Prejudice

    […] say ‘may have suggested’ here as I’m relying on the quotation in this article at Lib Con, which may be taken out of context, rather the full article which I haven’t seen as it […]

  37. Why are all Pakistani men being smeared in the sex-grooming cases? | Iman Qureshi

    […] Read the rest at Liberal Conspiracy. […]





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