Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact


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11:06 am - January 5th 2011

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contribution by Matt Hill

Are we seeing the ‘Islamification’ of Britain? If a breathless report in the Independent yesterday is to be believed, the answer is yes. ‘Record numbers embrace Muslim faith‘, claims the article.

But look beyond the hype, and a different story emerges. Some people are eager to be misinformed about the spread of western Islam.

The Canadian author Mark Steyn’s 2008 book America Alone found a large audience for its apocalyptic vision of a future ‘Eurabia’: a continent where women are forcibly veiled, gay clubs are closed for business and white people are forced to flee as once-proud Christian nations fall like so many dominoes in the face of militant Islam.

Islam is a convenient bogeyman for those who want to preserve the status quo – or a superannuated, Christianised version of it – and fear change wherever they see it. Narratives of its expansion concretise people’s vague sense of cultural loss in a changing world – and serve the perennial conservative instinct to cling to what’s left before it’s too late.

Out here in the real world, however, something else is going on. The recent British Social Attitudes survey showed, for the first time, a majority of people claiming to be non-religious.

But more striking is the generational change the survey reveals. While 76.3% of people say they were raised as Christians, only 43.7% of people now identify as such. The real story, when it comes to British religion, is the number of people converting to godlessness.

And while 2.3% of people were raised in the faith, 2.4% call themselves Muslims: hardly a story of British ‘Islamification’.

A closer look at the figures quoted by the Independent shows it hides a classic non-story. A religious think tank has calculated the number of annual conversions to Islam by polling London mosques – who have an obvious incentive to over-estimate – and extrapolating the figures nationwide.

Even the head of the New Muslims Project, a group set up to support converts, is quoted as calling the hardly earth-shattering guess of 5,200 converts per year ‘a little on the high side’.

That a few Britons choose to convert to Islam every year – most in order to marry into Muslim families before continuing to live much as before – is hardly news. More remarkable is the growing number of former Muslims who have bravely gone public with their embrace of secularism, despite facing ostracism and sometimes violence for the offence of ‘apostasy‘.

Ignore the headlines: there’s never been a better time or place to believe in nothing much – despite the paranoia of those for whom it’s always the end of the world as we know it.


Matt blogs at Green Wedge

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Reader comments


If Andrew Gilligan is anyone to go by, you’d think that mosques were being built at the rate of 6 a week. Of course not only does Gilligan have a tendency to sex things up, he produces great scare stories. Here he puts the boot into the charity Muslim Aid
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100068829/muslim-aid-hopeless-charity-commission-whitewashes-yet-another-islamist-group/

Naturally, his admirers lap this stuff up.

These stories are produced for a single reason: to prepare the public for a future attack on Iran.

2. Chaise Guevara

Surveys show that people define religion in interesting ways. It’s the norm for 80% of a nation to identify as Christian (for example) but for over half of them to say they either doubt or actively disbelieve in the existence of a higher power. My assumption is that people see it as a cultural thing.

I suspect the non-muslim population of Tower Hamlets disagree with you.

4. Chaise Guevara

@ 3 Gubbs

“I suspect the non-muslim population of Tower Hamlets disagree with you.”

They’re the fount of all wisdom this week, are they?

What does the Islamofication of Britain even mean? Do the people who come out with this rubbish actually know what it means? Doubtful.

It’s mostly right-wing Christian fundamentalists who complain that the West is being “taken over” by Islam. Such claims are usually out of frustration that Western nations such as ours don’t adhere to “tradtional Christian values”. They seek to blame minority religions for this but in reality it’s because we are a more secular nation that doesn’t wish to be governed by the religious beliefs of a minority of people.

Of course a secular country provides the very best environment for those of all faiths and none, and I share the OP’s optimism.

At the same time we should, as Gilligan does, continue to expose those who are actively hostile to secularism.

@6 Gilligan exposes nothing. He’s a sensationalist.

@5 You’re absolutely right. Stories about “creeping Islamification” always come from Xtian fundamentalists and their allies in the right wing press.

@ 1 buddyhell

You don’t have to be an admirer of Gilligan or the Torygraph to think that the Charities Commission hasn’t done it’s job properly in this instance.

I don’t think your negative view of Gilligan’s point that the Commission’s lack of action amounts to a whitewash amounts to softening the people up for a future attack on Iran either… seems a bit of a leap to far!

@2: “Surveys . . ”

On religious beliefs and practices of Britain’s population, the “official source” on the data is: Social Trends. Try chapter 13, for example, in the latest volume: Social Trends 40:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_social/Social-Trends40/ST40_2010_FINAL.pdf

More extensive data were published in earlier volumes:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=5748

@Galen. I’m not sure what you’re saying. Are you trying to claim that Muslim Aid is involved in something shady? Perhaps you need to read more of Gilligan’s blogs. Maybe you should try this one
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100066569/islamic-extremism-is-this-the-years-most-embarrassing-academic-report/

@11 buddyhell

I hadn’t heard anything about the issue, so am only going by what I’ve been able to read since scanning the OP and linked items. It seems from what I’ve read so far that the Commission has indeed failed to investigate the matter throughly, unless what Gilligan is saying about their investigation is wholly inaccurate.

If Muslim Aid is in fact blameless, then fine; if in fact they are giving support to groups involved in terrorism then something should be done. A first pass at the information to hand tends to support the argument that the Commission’s investigation was not thorough.

As I said above, the fact that one may be suspicious of Gilligan and the Torygraph does not ipso facto mean his allegations are false (any more than it means they are true), still less does it support your view that is all part of some grandiose plan to pave the way for an attack on Iran.

@Galen. So the steady drip feed of stories about “creeping Islamisation” from Gilligan and others should be ignored? You have to ask yourself how many other journalists spend this much time producing stories of this kind. Better still, have a look at some of the comments he attracts and then ask yourself why the comments on his blogs aren’t better moderated.

“If Muslim Aid is in fact blameless, then fine; if in fact they are giving support to groups involved in terrorism then something should be done. ”

Bit of a catch 22 this though, as any investigation that concludes the organisation is blameless will then get criticised for not being thorough enough. It is as if failure to find evidence of wrongdoing merely means you didn’t try hard enough, not that an organisation hasn’t done wrongdoing.

15. Chaise Guevara

@ 12 Galen10

“As I said above, the fact that one may be suspicious of Gilligan and the Torygraph does not ipso facto mean his allegations are false (any more than it means they are true), still less does it support your view that is all part of some grandiose plan to pave the way for an attack on Iran.”

However, if the paper intends to be hawkish about Iran and pro-war should that become a serious possibility, it would be cynical but sensible of it to cultivate anti-Muslim feeling.

16. Chaise Guevara

@ 10 Bob B

“On religious beliefs and practices of Britain’s population, the “official source” on the data is: Social Trends. Try chapter 13, for example, in the latest volume: Social Trends 40″

Interesting gender split on religious belief there.

@13

“So the steady drip feed of stories about “creeping Islamisation” from Gilligan and others should be ignored? You have to ask yourself how many other journalists spend this much time producing stories of this kind. Better still, have a look at some of the comments he attracts and then ask yourself why the comments on his blogs aren’t better moderated.”

No – I didn’t say that, nor do I agree with it. The trouble is Gilligan may be a mono-maniac about this general issue and totally off the mark for all I know, and yet correct in his assessment of this particular case. And again, whilst I have no love for the man, his views, or his chosen mouthpiece, the fact that the comments on his blog aren’t better moderated doesn’t mean he is wrong about the Charity Commission in this specific instance, nor does it support your narrative that it is all part of some plot to pave the way for an attack on Iran.

@14 planetshift

“Bit of a catch 22 this though, as any investigation that concludes the organisation is blameless will then get criticised for not being thorough enough. It is as if failure to find evidence of wrongdoing merely means you didn’t try hard enough, not that an organisation hasn’t done wrongdoing.”

Not ANY investigation surely? Either an investigation is thorough (preferably in the eyes of a reasonable independent source I’d grant you), or it isn’t.

From what I read in Gilligan’s piece (and yes.. I accept this might NOT be unbiased) there would seem to be grounds for thinking the Commission investigation was not thorough… altho’ I’d have to see and hear more evidence before I made a judgement, and see whether the Commission was essentially policing itself, or had the support of some “external eyes”.

I’m not saying I believe Gilligan or accept the Torygraph narrative, I am saying that just because it may be from a source you and I don’t like does not mean it is automatically without foundation.

@ 15 Chaise

Hey, I’m in general agreement; if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc.

I’m just saying that healthy cynicism about the source, and the motives of that source, shouldn’t lead us to give unwarranted credence to the beleif that there is a sinister right wing plot to promote an attack on Iran, or indeed that Gilligan’s claims are wrong simply because one disagrees with him and the right wing rag he works for.

20. Cynical/Realist?

I have often thought about converting to Islam just to see the look on my families faces at the next bbq. Its enough fun saying I’m not Christian (but you were Christened.. so you are).

I suspect the mosque won’t see this as a legitimate reason to convert however and may send me packing with some well selected words about growing up a bit.

21. Chaise Guevara

@ 20

“but you were Christened…so you are”

An old friend of mine, filling in a census form as a teenager, put his religion down as “atheist” only to have his mum say “no, you’re Anglican” and helpfully correct it for him…

@20

I believe all that is required is to recite some declaration of faith 3 times to become a Muslim…. be careful though, because if you change your mind later some nut job will probably try to have you beheaded or stoned to death.

On reflection it might cause more of a stir if you arrived at the next family gathering in full pirate regalia having converted to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster…… (may you be touched by his noodly appendage!) ;)

@3 Gubbs

I’m non-muslim (white british as it happens) and live in Tower Hamlets. I don’t disagree with the article – please don’t try and speak for me.

24. Chaise Guevara

@ 19 Galen

“I’m just saying that healthy cynicism about the source, and the motives of that source, shouldn’t lead us to give unwarranted credence to the beleif that there is a sinister right wing plot to promote an attack on Iran, or indeed that Gilligan’s claims are wrong simply because one disagrees with him and the right wing rag he works for.”

Well, claiming it’s untrue because we don’t like the source would be an obvious ad hom. You’re right that it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

And yes, there’s no reason to believe that the Telegraph is whipping up anti-Muslim fever because it knows something we don’t. I can’t really see Cameron phoning up the Telegraph and saying “Hi chaps, we’re planning to attack Iran. Run one of those hilarious stories about Muslims banning Christmas, will you?”

And while 2.3% of people were raised in the faith, 2.4% call themselves Muslims: hardly a story of British ‘Islamification’.

Your right, but the ‘islamification of britian’ headline is more accurate than your ‘the opposite in fact’

Because the opposite would mean the second fugure was lower than the first.

Im happy to conclude that both are pointless bullshit

26. Cynical/Realist?

@22 – yep, a very short bit of actually looking into it later revealed my ignorance on it. If its actually that easy to convert, it would make sense to take the apparel with me to the bbq, read out to everyone how easy it is to convert and then do it in front of them. And then throw away all the pork on the bbq as it now goes against my religion.

I would of course then have to be willing to use other people’s deeply held beliefs to make a cheap pun at my family’s expense, which as a limp-wristed, wishy-washy loony-lefty I’m obviously far too PC to do.

27. Planeshift

Galen,

Its more that some sections of opinion (not you) will never be satisfied that a muslim charity has nothing to hide. Investigations that find no evidence will always be dismissed as unthorough, until one finds a sniff of something dody (even something as trivial as a staff member pulling a sickie) and then it will blown out of proportion. It’s a bit like global warming deniers calling for more research – everytime a new study fails to confirm their prejudices they claim the study was flawed and it needs more research. Like a bad loser saying best of 3, best of 5, best of 7, 9, 11 etc.

Gilligan has long since realised challenging the establishment gets you sacked, supporting the right wing prejudices gets you lucrative columns. I wouldn’t be suprised if journo’s actually have it as a career plan (first half of career be a good journo, then just be lazy and bigoted for the second half so you can retire by 50)

@27

Agreed… you will get that kind of “ultra” anywhere; you only have to look at the likes of oldandrew who pops up on here with monotonous regularity to insist that this site is biased against Catholics and gives Muslims an easy ride, it’s all a lefty-liberal conspiracy etc. etc.

What I was saying I guess is that in the end you have to trust people in general to not unthinkingly accept the “no smoke without fire” line. This charity may indeed have nothing to hide and be totally blameless, or it may have unknowingly been used by extermist groups as a cover, or it may have knowingly done something wrong. From what I’ve seen so far, the Commission doesn’t seem to have done that thorough a job, which only feeds the atavistic itch that some people need to scratch to see a conspiracy where in all probability none exists.

In my book, there is little to distinguish what Gilligan is being accused of (assuming he is wrong in this case) and what buddyhell replied with @ post 1 above.

The figures for those abandoning their faith or being ambivalent about it are obviously larger and more impressive, but indifference doesn’t make a good headline or have a loud voice for that matter.

Also, the OP makes the mistake of considering atheism or agnosticism as a rival system of belief, when it isn’t. Its just disbelief in light of no evidence – it has no content to “buy into” religiously for it to be considered something in the same league. There is also the mistake of falling back on ambiguous and tedious new-age liberal principles before a proper dissemination of the facts – you already have your position before you undertook the research to write this piece.

An important differentiation must be made here: Britain is not a secular democracy – it is a multi-religional one.

Christianity is central to our society despite a growing indifference in the population. Other faiths all demand the freedoms and benefits Christianity has in society, and because of the nature of our liberal democracy, the state is compelled to comply and treat them all the same. Thus, the bar in our country is a lot higher on this issue, which is why people of all faiths are supportive of each other when it comes to acquiring more and more religious freedoms within the state – they all benefit after all because the principle mentioned earlier.

The results are for all to see. There is a wealth of information out there about how segregated and insular some faith schools are – and all faiths are guilty. We have legal courts for Jewish law and Sharia law – with the latter demanding the same freedoms to exercise their authority as the former.

The issue of an increasingly Islamic Britain is in fact real given the facts posted here – it is the scale which has been typically amplified in right wing media circles.

I have to stress, this is not a value judgement, as commentary on this issue often unknowingly is.

The heading is flat-out false. Not to be the Pedantic Policeman but there’s no evidence that British people are becoming less Islamic: ie. there are no significant numbers of converts. As people who warn of Islamification typically see it as a by-product of Christianity’s wane they’re not likely to be reassured by atheistic trends either…

31. Dan Factor

I think in order to banish this nonscene that Britain/Europe is becoming “Islamified” we need to actually have a debate about what right-wingers actually mean when they say “Islamification”.
We should challenge them to present evidence (and because there is none they won’t be able to of course) to show that we are becoming “Islamified”.

A propos of nothing other than I have just found out, did you know that Niall Ferguson is divorcing his wife and going out with Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

33. Shatterface

As a matter of simple mathematics 2.4% is a greater number than 2.3% – and those who convert to a religion (and I’d include Blair here) tend to be nuttier than those for whom religion is simply a quaint family tradition. Its one thing to accept something ludicrous because that’s how you were brought up and another to reach adulthood and think ‘You know there might just be something in sky pixies after all.’

That’s not to say Britain faces anything like Islamicisation (or Catholicisation, or whatever) of course: the tendancy is definitely towards secularisation, if not necessarily towards atheism.

I’m more concerned with censorship from well meaning/self hating (delete where applicable) liberals and, in the future, the UN. It would be a travesty if Pakistani politicians gave their lives fighting blasphemy laws while people in the West refused to stand up against threats and intimidation in the name of ‘social cohesion’.

Blasphemy is a right.

34. Chaise Guevara

@ 33 Shatterface

“That’s not to say Britain faces anything like Islamicisation (or Catholicisation, or whatever) of course: the tendancy is definitely towards secularisation, if not necessarily towards atheism.”

On that note, if the number of Muslims rises slightly, but the percentage of Muslims who only call themselves Muslim because they were raised that way (and therefore don’t really go in for demanding religious morality laws etc.) increases significantly over the same period, is that evidence of Britain becoming more or less Islamified? The numbers would say more, but the effect would suggest less.

35. Chaise Guevara

@ 33

Forgot to mention my agreement with this:

“Blasphemy is a right.”

So: hear, hear!

At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law haven’t we been here before? Find a miniority, demonise it, ascribe all that is wrong in the world to it, claim it is trying to take over, and prepare the ground to launch social attacks on it and anyone defending it.

At least there’s some reason to hope – The recent British Social Attitudes survey showed, for the first time, a majority of people claiming to be non-religious. – that such nonsense is finding less fertile soiol this time.

> …there’s never been a better time or place to believe in nothing much…

Excuse me? I believe in lots of things – invisible, seemingly non-existent deity just isn’t one of them.

@ 35

I second your “hear, hear”. ;)

Dave,

‘Your right, but the ‘islamification of britian’ headline is more accurate than your ‘the opposite in fact’

Because the opposite would mean the second fugure was lower than the first.

Im happy to conclude that both are pointless bullshit’

I didn’t write the headline, but the point is that, far from Britain becoming increasingly ‘Islamified’, we’re becoming increasingly secularised. So I think it makes sense.

A few people have pointed out that the true figure for non-religiosity is probably much lower, as in surveys people tend to interpret questions about faith as referring to culture rather than belief. The British Humanist Association is encouraging everyone who doesn’t positively believe in, or practice, religion, to identify themselves as non-believers in the upcoming census, as previous censuses have grossly overestimated the country’s Christian character. Anecdotally, I would guess the same is true of Islam: I’ve known many people who self-identify as Muslims without paying the faith the slightest notice in their everyday lives.

The true figure for non-religiosity is probably much HIGHER. Sorry.

“there’s never been a better time or place to believe in nothing much”

Just to echo BlueRock @ 37: why is the author of this post repeating the view, usually associated with fundamentalist halfwits, that people who disagree with them about God don’t believe in anything?

But there’s no evidence that British people are becoming less Islamic: ie. there are no significant numbers of converts.

Actually – there are plenty of evidence, especially in changing social attitudes, that I’d say British Muslims are becoming more secular too. Even the big Muslim institutions these days are openly secular in a way that wasn’t likely just a decade ago.

Actually – there are plenty of evidence, especially in changing social attitudes, that I’d say British Muslims are becoming more secular too.

Such as?

G.O.,

‘Just to echo BlueRock @ 37: why is the author of this post repeating the view, usually associated with fundamentalist halfwits, that people who disagree with them about God don’t believe in anything?’

I think you know what I mean. As an atheist, I don’t have any metaphysical beliefs. I ‘believe’ in democracy, human rights, secularism, and so on, but that’s a different kind of belief than faith in an omnipotent, omniscient creator.

I’d agree the title of the article is fairly silly but I was under the impression that it is not unusual for these not to be written by the person actually writing the peice? The title apart, you’ve misrepresented it almost completely. I fail to see what is ‘breathless’ about it. The number of people who no longer identify as Christian is irrelevant to the point of the article, which is about the rate of conversion to Islam, rather than the absolute number. Given that it also carries a paragraph about how to convert to Islam, along with the personal testimonies of those who have become converts, your ‘Independent is behaving like the Mail’ tone is completely misconceived, as far as I can see.

46. Just Visiting

Shuggy – you are quite right.

Matt, you are selectively quoting from the article – to make a case where none is to be made.

You quoted one sentence from Batool al-Toma, who runs the New Muslims Project, but ignored her line:
“I definitely think there has been a noticeable increase in the number of converts in recent years”

More worrying, is the number of Twitter links – there seem to be so many folk like you, who are willing to play rough+dirty with the facts, if the message fits their preferred worldview.

Sounds like the Daily Mirror approach to me – which is roundly criticised on LC at frequent intervals.

Like you, they want to avoid and shutdown any sensible,reasoned debate about Islam in the UK – and label any such debate as racist.
Witness:
* several tweets make a connection from the article to “EDL-types”
* one says ‘people are eager to be misinformed about the spread of Islam’ (sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me)

47. Just Visiting

Sunny

Your 42 does need supporting evidence, like BenSix said.

48. Just Visiting

George

Hold your horses – which bit of the Independent article exactly was doing one of your list:

> Find a miniority, demonise it, ascribe all that is wrong in the world to it, claim it is trying to take over, and prepare the ground to launch social attacks on it and anyone defending it.

Shuggy & Just Visiting,

The point is simple enough. There’s nothing in the Independent article to support the view that anything particularly significant is going on: the methodology behind the 5,200 figure is flimsy at best. The British Social Attitudes survey, which is a much more reliable source, shows us there’s no significant overall trend of conversion to Islam. We should be talking about the demographic shift towards secularism, not some chimerical ‘Islamification’ of society which there’s no evidence to support.

Even the big Muslim institutions these days are openly secular in a way that wasn’t likely just a decade ago.

I’m not sure which ones they are. And I don’t think that conversions are really a big issue.

Not that I’m fussed about it (apart from niqabs which I’m not a fan of) there is evidence of more religious dress isn’t there? At universities. And bigger Muslim societies at universities.

And being more secular isn’t always an improvement on being religious, when the secular leads to lads all hanging out like tough guys in segregated places like Oldham, drinking and smoking weed. And if they go to prison for anything, many are likely to want to serve there time as muslims, for the same reason that people join together in prisons.
For solidarity and community. Google the words ‘Muslim prisoners in UK jails’ for an interesting google page to come up.
It’s only one aspect and a small aspect of course, but it’s obviously something the Daily Mail readers love to get animated about. They were at it again yesterday (about that story The Times had on it’s front page).

Trends for future immigration and taking spouces from abroad are a factor too. And would far outstrip any small number of conversions.

Matt

I can see the sort of belief you’re rejecting, of course; I just think you’re playing into the enemy’s hands in suggesting that once you stop believing in God, there’s ‘nothing much’ left to believe in. Obviously there are loads of things, both concrete and abstract.

“As an atheist, I don’t have any metaphysical beliefs.”

Hmm… how about naturalistic beliefs like “there are no gods” and “every physical event has a physical cause”? How about “there’s no such thing as unicorns, but there are such things as numbers”? I think most philosophers nowadays would want to say those were metaphysical beliefs themselves (they certainly *look* like beliefs about the fundamental nature of reality), which is partly why the wholesale rejection of metaphysics is now pretty much off the table.

@47 – Sunny only said there was plenty of evidence that this is what he’d say. He supplied the evidence by saying it.

Not very satisfactory but there you go.

It must make you a little bit nervous though, now be honest.

You can dance around it all you want, these Southern Asian theocrats that you’re talking about don’t share any of your egalitarian values, and they’re arriving here in ever greater numbers with ever higher birth rates.

Deep down inside you know that as these people gain political strength and group cohesion they aren’t going to be sitting around cafes discussing gay rights and tuition fees with the likes of you. You know it! They are going to be lobbying for their own ethnic and religious interests.

Here’s a recent story from Pakistan: -

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/A-Christian-man-and-his-daughter-arrested,-almost-lynched-for-blasphemy-13466.html

“A Christian man and his daughter arrested, almost lynched for blasphemy
by Qaiser Felix
Rumours spread in a village near Faisalabad that a Christian girl ripped some pages from the Qur’an. But more than one version of the facts is making the rounds of the village. Anti-Christian intolerance is growing in the country and a Pakistani lawmaker says the “accusations are a fabrication” to persecute Christians.

A Christian man, Gulsher Masih, and his daughter Sandal have been charged with blasphemy under Article 295 B of the Pakistan Penal Code for allegedly tearing some pages from the Qur’an last Thursday in the village of Tehsil Chak Jhumra, in Faisalabad district. Without police intervention they could have been lynched by an angry mob.”

Christians are now being lynched in Pakistan for their religious beliefs, there are moves afoot to bring in the death penalty for “insulting Islam”. Now, try as I might, I just can’t see the happy end of this multi-cultural rainbow where vast numbers of Muslims live peacefully alongside homosexuals, Trotskyites, leftist firebrands and militant feminists. Never mind the rest of us.

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVE, AND YOU KNOW IT.

I have another question for you though.

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DIG MINE AS WELL?

If you want to live amongst bloodthirsty stone age theocrats and cultists of a dark age totalitarian ideology, that’s fine. Go live in the middle east, or Sub-Saharan Africa, why do you need to import the Third world here?

I have to wonder if your positions would change after you had been chased down the street by packs of feral beggars or lived in a place where people still die of medieval diseases like cholera, the roads are covered in potholes and the police demand bribes to let you drive to your work, where stores regularly run out of necessities like bread and meat and power black outs happen 30 times a day. Then he would get home to his house with 50 foot walls covered in barbed wire, glass and security cameras to keep out rapists, murderers and opportunists. Where your wife wan’t allowed to work or drive or even show her face.

I don’t mean to flame anyone here, but surely there is a contradiction between Liberal values and the values of Islam? Surely? And surely you can see that. I genuinely fear that you are walking into a minefield regarding your complacency over this issue and I don’t think you are prepared for what the reality of your world view will mean for people in the UK in the long term.

I hope I am wrong, but I don’t think I am.

54. Mr S. Pill

@53

2.4%, man. It’s not the end of the world. 1.9% of people who voted at the last election voted BNP – I don’t hear you hollerin’ about jackboots on the streets. Get over yourself.

@53 Concerned

Mr S. Pill @ 54 is quite right. Any reasonable person can see that you are wrong, verging on the hysterical in fact. The link you aim to make between the medieval style barbarism being perpetrated in Pakistan, and the prospect of green flags flying over London, and shari’a law being imposed needs to be seen for what it is: a paranoid fantasy.

As has already been shown, our society is (thankfully) becoming more secular. You will always get a few wing nuts, whether islamic, christian, fascist, anarchist etc, etc…. but that shouldn’t blind you to the fact that your nightmare has about as much chance of coming true as Nick Griffin does of becoming Prime Minister.

“2.4%, man. It’s not the end of the world. 1.9% of people who voted at the last election voted BNP – I don’t hear you hollerin’ about jackboots on the streets. Get over yourself.”

Well OK then, 2.4% isn’t an issue in your estimation. So is there a percentage which would be a problem? 10%, 20%,30%, 50% ?

A Pew report was released last year summarising the population distribution of Muslims across the World. The Pew Centre is one of the most respected demographic research bodies in the world and they are non-partisan with no political agenda.

You can look at it yourself here: -

http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Demographics/Muslimpopulation.pdf

By their estimates, there are 2,869,000 muslims living in the UK. this is a 74% increase on the figure of 2001 which was 1,647,000. This expansion of itself is unprecedented and the report suggests that the figure could be much higher as there has been no proper record keeping, and such that has been taken has had a political agenda to fudge the numbers downward.

Anyway, this brings us to 4.7% best case scenario rather than 2.4%. If we assume that the muslim birth rate is roughly 3 times higher than the rest of the population (which is reasonable) then in two generations the number of muslims in the population will be roughly equal to the number of non-muslims. This is around 40 – 50 years from now and WITHOUT ANY FURTHER INFLUX VIA IMMIGRATION from abroad.

In a recent survey, 40% of muslims were in favour of Sharia law being implemented in the UK.

You suggest that the Muslim population in the UK is becoming more secular whilst the evidence suggests that they are in fact becoming more radical.

Mosques in the UK are disseminating radical wahhabi Islam and are being funded in many areas directly from Saudi Arabia with the sole intent of radicalising the muslim population. Our university campuses and prisons are becoming forums for conversions and radicalisation.

In a disturbing phenomenon which is being largely blacked out by the media and police, Islamic gangs in the north of England are forcing young non-muslim girls into drug addiction, gang rape and prostitution on a frightening scale in what can only be described as racist grooming as it is directed solely at the White English community.

None of these claims are controversial and are easy to verify.

Honestly. I think you’re being manipulated or allowing political convictions to pull you away from the simple facts. Either that or you are conditioned to think that tyrannies are exclusively a product of the right. The BNP seems to be mentioned all the time and has some sort of “bogey man” status here and it’s hard to understand why, they are a rudderless and bankrupt organisation, Griffin cuts a comic figure and his attempts to ingratiate himself into polite society are as risible as they are ineffectual. They are no threat to anyone. They are a non-entity.

I think you are sleepwalking into a nightmare and I think you need to be directing the same energy, if not more, into combatting Islamic fundamentalism as you do in combatting far right extremism.

57. Chaise Guevara

Y’know, I was very proud of this site. More that 50 comments into a thread with “Islamification” in the name and no evidence of shrill, moronic, paranoid and hysterical bigotry.

I guess all good things come to an end.

58. Planeshift

“40% of muslims were in favour of Sharia law being implemented in the UK.”

Fuck, a minority. I thought you paranoid lot were banding around figures a lot higher than that. In any case the result of that poll could have been anything, and you would have still used it for rhetorical effect. Plus, to be meaningful we would have to see how the numbers in the poll changed over time, what the trend was etc.

Also notice the phrase “a recent survey”. No mention of who did the survey, where we can look at etc. The hallmarks of a content free post of bollocks.

Well at least I actually give evidence of something. All you have is wishful thinking, ad-hominem attacks and vacant egalitarianism backed by no data. You throw around the word “bigot” like confetti at a wedding but it never occurs to you that it is you has the totalitarian world view.

We’re all the same, 100% equal, any deviation from this is heresy.

Somehow stone age theocrats indoctrinated in a backwards totalitarian world view, coming from savage political landscapes where women are stoned to death, non-believers are lynched, petty thieves are maimed. Somehow they arrive here and check all that baggage in at the door, they march down to the student union and become secular universalists with thoughtful commentary and useful insights on gay rights, feminism and freedom of speech. How does that happen exactly? Is it something they put in the drinks on the plane?

You lot really are hilarious. You strut around in this surreal parallel universe where you believe, genuinely believe, that the Conservative party are in fact White supremacists with a virulent anti-immigrant agenda, when they are in fact open border lunatics as much as the last lot were. They have kow-towed lock and step to the EU, abandoned every true conservative principle and now resemble a puppet government run by EHRC beaurocrats of Brussels but somehow they are still an entity of the “right”. And the right is to be feared.

You are making a fool of yourselves about modest spending cuts which were inevitable after the criminal mismanagement and heinous entitlement spending by Labour. Do you really think that 50% of the population in higher education was ever realistic? How many basket weaving, media studies and David Beckham students was the already beleagured tax payer supposed to subsidise?

You go on and on and on about the “dangers” of the EDL and the BNP as if they are only ever 2 steps away from a coup and declaring the fourth Reich or something, when they seem to any sensible observer to simply to be the remnants of the old football hooligans and a bankrupt political comedy skit respectively.

BUT WO BETIDE ANYONE WHO IS CRITICAL OF ISLAM IN THE UK!! THEY ARE BIGOTS; MORONS; PARANOID (insert ad-hominem smear but never, ever refute argument).

Stalin would have killed for useful idiots of your calibre.

“Fuck, a minority. I thought you paranoid lot were banding around figures a lot higher than that. In any case the result of that poll could have been anything, and you would have still used it for rhetorical effect. Plus, to be meaningful we would have to see how the numbers in the poll changed over time, what the trend was etc.

Also notice the phrase “a recent survey”. No mention of who did the survey, where we can look at etc. The hallmarks of a content free post of bollocks.”

Sure thing smart guy: -

http://www.sify.com/news/1-in-3-brit-muslims-students-back-killing-for-islam-40-percent-want-sharia-law-wikileaks-news-international-kmwmEhjhief.html

Will that be enough or will you need another 50 citations?

What’s next, attack the veracity of source?

An ad-hominem attack on me?

I know it won’t be a refutal.

Concerned,

I suggest you learn the difference between Islam and Islam as practiced by idiots. Not all Muslims are the sterotypical fools you portray (too many are, to be fair – the stereotype is not totally fictional); just like Christians there are a variety, from people who you would only know are Muslim because they mention it through to the old men with beards who demand everyone listen to them on the basis of their egos.

“I suggest you learn the difference between Islam and Islam as practiced by idiots. Not all Muslims are the sterotypical fools you portray (too many are, to be fair – the stereotype is not totally fictional); just like Christians there are a variety, from people who you would only know are Muslim because they mention it through to the old men with beards who demand everyone listen to them on the basis of their egos.”

I agree, my issue is with the complacency and obfuscation of the left on this issue and the need to smear and silence anyone who raises it.

63. Mr S. Pill

@62

No-one is silencing or smearing you – just pointing out that you are somewhat hysterical. Typing in caps doesn’t help, either…

To address some of your points, not that you’ll take notice:

“OK then, 2.4% isn’t an issue in your estimation. So is there a percentage which would be a problem? 10%, 20%,30%, 50% ?”

I refer you to Zeno’s paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. & then after that I point to what we are talking about is the here and now and trends, which all point to the obverse of your shouting paranoia (see the OP. I mean read it, don’t just read words like “Islam” and scream about liberals).

“In a disturbing phenomenon which is being largely blacked out by the media and police, Islamic gangs in the north of England are forcing young non-muslim girls into drug addiction, gang rape and prostitution on a frightening scale in what can only be described as racist grooming as it is directed solely at the White English community.”

Here we go… why is it when a white gang rapes and enslaves girls it’s never, EVER, seen on grounds of race or religion? Why is that, Concerned? Please tell us. Guess what – forcing people into posititution is wrong, always – whether it’s white or asian or black or french or whatever the person who’s doing it identifies as. Stop trying to smear your opponents in a debate by making them out to be apologists for rape. I could easily point to your anti-Muslim hysteria as a mirror image of a certain type of German attitude towards Jews in the 1930s. The language you use is exactly the same. But, aheh, I won’t.

“Either that or you are conditioned to think that tyrannies are exclusively a product of the right.”

Islamic fundamentalism sits very firmly on the right of the political spectrum, chum. Am I concerned (sic) about Islamic fundamentalism? Yes – but more so in countries where it is an actual concern (Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Yeman) than here, where the majority of Muslims don’t give two flying shits about Wahhabism or what Osama’s up to nowadays.

Like I say, you’re so blinded by your own prejudice against OMG THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING you won’t bother to understand any of these points. Let alone my final one: Muslims are not a homogenous group that you can smear and slander at will. They are human beings, just like you and me, and they come in different sizes and shapes with different opinions and beliefs, just like you and me, just like Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Rastas, anyone who exists basically. Stop pretending there’s a bogeyman out to get us when the only one there is exists in your head.

Shalom.

Ach Mr. S Pill… all of your anecdotal evidence makes me feel much better but I can’t help but think it’s all a bunch of wishful thinking and ideological obfuscating.

You and I both know that the phenomenom of grooming gangs in Northern England is a predominantly asian and yes, muslim, one. Are there some White English people involved? Yes, but on the whole it is a predominantly Asian phenomenon. This means it’s causes must be addressed by dialogue with that community, not wishy-washy statements that “all creeds commit these crimes blah blah”. You have no issue with pinning the blame for the BNP firmly on White people, or pummeling the diverse people from different backgrounds who form the religion of Christianity.

Claiming that groming isn’t an Asian Muslim problem is simply a tactic to place the burden of proof onto me for something we both know to be true.

Don’t make this a “bigotry” issue on my part, that’s a copout from you. If it were a White English phenomenom I wouldn’t hesitate to admit it. Now internet grooming, that’s White and it’s English. This issue isn’t.

And give me a break on all the Hitler 1930s crap, now that is a silencing tactic. Because of Nazi Germany I can’t comment on Islam in the UK in 2010? What do the two situations have in common? And I’ll be really disappointed if you say “hate” or “bigotry” or “fear of the other” or some banal garbage. The Nazi party had issues with Jewry because of the Balfour agreement, their percieved control of financial institutions, their hyperinflation profiteering and propaganda therein, anti-semitic propaganda for political gain, the protocols of Zion, Hitler’s own proclivites, Jewry’s role in the rise of Bolshevism. Two different issues in two different eras and a completely different argument. Muslims aren’t a tiny diaspora spread thinly over the globe, they are a vast population with a cohesive ideology that covers near a third of the planet. Oranges and apples chum.

When it was said “never again” was that never again stick up for yourself and never again stand up to tyranny unless it has a moustache and a swastika?

It says something about your paranoia that you would even mention that.

So “most” Muslims, even a significant number, according to your highly scientific anecdote, in the UK don’t share radical beliefs such as desire for sharia, killing in the name of islam, that British soldiers are devils, women should be killed for committing adultery, oh yes, and that Jews are monkeys and dogs. Most of them DON’T believe this. OK, I would be most reassured if you would please provide the document that proves this or even substantiates it.

I belong to the right of the political spectrum and I am appalled by honour killings, women being second class citizens, women being stoned to death for adultery, religious supremacism, persecution of non-muslims. What do those positions have to do with the “right”?

I read the article, all of it, and I agree broadly with the thesis. White converts to Islam is a politicised non-issue. The article says nowhere that Muslims are becoming more secular, only Christians.

Oh and as you bring it up, what are your thoughts on the Jewish exodus from Amsterdam because of anti-semitism?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3998968,00.html

I don’t think the anti-semites in this case were Nazis or members of the BNP, were they?

Personally, I view the Jewish people as the “canaries in the cage”. If they’re leaving, you know there are problems.

66. Mr S. Pill

@64

“You have no issue with pinning the blame for the BNP firmly on White people”

Strawman alert – I said no such thing. Just as I don’t blame all white people for the BNP I don’t blame all Asian people for Asian gangs grooming girls.

As for the rest of your post, I’ll deal with it later – it hapens to be friday night & I need to keep the economy afloat by exchanging in a coin/beer trade-off.

67. Chaise Guevara

“BUT WO BETIDE ANYONE WHO IS CRITICAL OF ISLAM IN THE UK!! THEY ARE BIGOTS; MORONS; PARANOID (insert ad-hominem smear but never, ever refute argument). ”

Ok, Concerned:

“Anyway, this brings us to 4.7% best case scenario rather than 2.4%. If we assume that the muslim birth rate is roughly 3 times higher than the rest of the population (which is reasonable) then in two generations the number of muslims in the population will be roughly equal to the number of non-muslims.”

Even assuming the calculation from those figures is accurate, you’re using the most negative (to your mind) figures you can get your hands on to try to confirm your belief that Britain is falling into an Islamic theocracy, including the blind statement that Muslims have three times the birth rate of the rest of the population.

You are also acting as if Islam is a race: this may shock you, but the progeny of one or more Muslims will not necessarily be Islamic.

You are THEN suggestively putting this shaky data next to the claim that 40% of British Muslims want Sharia law, but I don’t see the bit where you take into account the possibility that second-, third- and fourth-generation Muslims, not to mention children of one Muslim parent and one non-Muslim parent, may be less devout than the previous generation. Where is that bit?

This is exactly the same as those stupid “WHITES TO BE MINORITY IN 50 YEARS OMG RUN!” articles, with the very slight saving grace that you do at least have a genuinely scary consequence – Sharia Law – to frighten people with.

68. Mr S. Pill

(or if anyone else wants to take over, feel free…)

69. Chaise Guevara

@ 63 S. Pill

I especially love the idea that these roaming gang of racist Muslim rapists are being hushed up by the media, as we all know that the Sun, the Mail, the Express and all their charming friends are diabolically cunning in their attempts to portray Muslims as paragons of virtue.

@66

Well I’m stuck overseas with my work so I’ll need to find another lefty to argue with.

Enjoy your bevvy. While it’s still legal under British law that is ;-)

“You are also acting as if Islam is a race: this may shock you, but the progeny of one or more Muslims will not necessarily be Islamic.

You are THEN suggestively putting this shaky data next to the claim that 40% of British Muslims want Sharia law, but I don’t see the bit where you take into account the possibility that second-, third- and fourth-generation Muslims, not to mention children of one Muslim parent and one non-Muslim parent, may be less devout than the previous generation. Where is that bit?

This is exactly the same as those stupid “WHITES TO BE MINORITY IN 50 YEARS OMG RUN!” articles, with the very slight saving grace that you do at least have a genuinely scary consequence – Sharia Law – to frighten people with.”

Islam isn’t a race, it’s a totalitarian ideology. That’s the point.

OK, second and third generation muslims may become secular liberals, that’s true, but might they not also become even more radical than their parents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

The 7/7 bombings would seem to support this thesis, being that the perpetrators were predominantly born and raised in Britain.

So couldn’t the scenario I paint indeed also be worse than I suggest, as well as not so bad.

It disturbs me a little bit that you think there are no bad consequences for White people when they become an ethnic minority. A similar process is underway in a place called Tibet and it seems to be a bad thing for the Tibetan people, some commentators even call it “genocide”.

Why do you hate White people so much anyway?

“I especially love the idea that these roaming gang of racist Muslim rapists are being hushed up by the media, as we all know that the Sun, the Mail, the Express and all their charming friends are diabolically cunning in their attempts to portray Muslims as paragons of virtue.”

You’re a moral vacuum and an apologist for rapists. I’m sure you’d waste no time shouting from the rooftops if it were BNP supporters grooming young Muslim girls.

Read this, and think about it: -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sex-predators-police-shocked-by-scale-of-abuse-2178842.html

Nowhere does it mention the religion or race of the victims or the criminals.

Wouldn’t this be pertinent information when the victims all belong exclusively to the same race and the perpetrators all belong to the same religious ideology and yes, race? Couldn’t this be viewed in that context as a racially motivated crime?

The author appears to tragically misunderstand Mark Steyn’s thesis, and must be rather desperate if he thinks that constituted a refutation of it. Conversion is of secondary important to that of demographics, on which Steyn places far greater emphasis. It is the demographic shift in the next several decades which will be crucial, and of course the Islamisation of Britain (and Europe) is happening considering how fast the Muslim population is increasing through reproduction and immigration. In any case I fully recommend his book ‘America Alone’, and I’m going to get his newest book ‘Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight Of The West’ very soon.

I do hope that the author is right and that not many people are converting. Because once you’re in, there’s no way out: the penalty for apostasy is death. And many seem to convert not because of knowledge of the faith, but a profound ignorance of its teachings.

I mean, listen to this guy: ‘Paul Martin was just a student when he decided to convert to Islam in an ice-cream shop in Manchester four years ago. Bored of what he saw as the hedonistic lifestyle of many of his friends at university and attracted to what he calls “Islam’s emphasis on seeking knowledge,”.’

‘Emphasis on seeking knowledge’? Are you kidding me?

As Melanie Philips writes; ‘Islam presents Allah not as the creator of a universe that runs according to its own natural laws, but as an active God who intrudes on the world as he deems appropriate’ – thus, natural laws are deemed blasphemous because they deny Allah’s freedom to act. The Koran is the final and ultimate word of God given by his messenger – and that’s all you need to know. It comes as no surprise then, that Islamic scholars advanced little beyond Greek’s such as Aristotle.

Furthermore, the idea that ‘the real story, when it comes to British religion, is the number of people converting to godlessness’ fits with Steyn’s thesis. He argues that the collapsing faith in Christianity is leaving a vacuum that will come, in time, to be filled by Islam.

I wonder, did the author even read the book? Or more importantly, does he understand any of it?

And thank you, Concerned, for dealing with those rapid leftists over there. It’s a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

77. Charles, Marxed

“As Melanie Philips writes; “…

LOL

Don’t like Philips, huh? I picked that because it was from her latest book which I read over the Christmas break ‘The World Turned Upside Down’. But if you like, I can quote Ibn Warraq from ‘Why I am not a Muslim’:

“Orthodox Islam emerged victorious from the encounter with Greek philosophy. Islam rejected the idea that one could attain truth with unaided human reason and settled for the unreflective comforts of the putatively superior truth of divine revelation. Wherever one decides to place the date of this victory of orthodox Islam (perhaps in the ninth century with the conversion of al-Ashari, or in the eleventh century with the works of al-Ghazali), it has been, I believe, an unmitigated disaster for all Muslims, indeed all mankind.’ – Ibn Warraq

Does anyone actually take Mad Mel Phillips seriously? LOL

@72 You said

“You’re a moral vacuum and an apologist for rapists. I’m sure you’d waste no time shouting from the rooftops if it were BNP supporters grooming young Muslim girls”

BNP supporters have already been accused and convicted of paedophilia. Possibly rape too.

‘Does anyone actually take Mad Mel Phillips seriously? LOL’

A vile ad hominem attack on the character and integrity of a journalist and author. A better question is, does anybody take YOU seriously with an attitude like that?

‘BNP supporters have already been accused and convicted of paedophilia. Possibly rape too.’

Evidence? The fact is, by bringing up irrelevant and vague references to other cases of rape and paedophilia, you ARE acting as an apologist for rapists by downplaying the severity of the case in hand. The fact is, these Muslims of Pakistani origin systematically and calculatingly targeted, groomed and repeatedly raped young white girls. This has been going on for years, and when the BNP brought up the issue, they were vilified as racists and hate-mongers. Now Jack Straw has finally come out and admitted they were right all along (though now from a position of opposition, he knew about it and could have done something for years).

“Vile ad hominem”? Get a grip. I

Let’s put it this way, “Benc”. I don’t take anyone who cites Melanie Phillips seriously. Anyone who uses her words to support their thesis is on a hiding to nothing. You’re probably just as much of a reactionary as her.

‘Let’s put it this way, “Benc”. I don’t take anyone who cites Melanie Phillips seriously.’

because…? I’m still waiting for justification, though there really is none – what matters is the veracity of what somebody says, not who they are. Once again, nobody should really take you seriously, because all you’ve done so far is prove you don’t like somebody.

‘Anyone who uses her words to support their thesis is on a hiding to nothing. You’re probably just as much of a reactionary as her.’

Ibn Warraq would agree. Is he trustworthy enough for you? I love the way leftists cycle through their choice of slurs. If Ibn Warraq or Melanie Philips were not ex-Muslim and Jew respectively, the cry would probably be racism. Failing that, the left falls back on empty labels such as ‘reactionary’. It’s becoming very tiresome.

In any case, my point that Islam was not about seeking knowledge, and it’s stagnation for the past 600 years or so its the greatest proof of that; whereas European civilization and culture flourished. That’s the broader picture; and I wanted to make a point that people seem to convert to Islam more out of ignorance than knowledge, and more in reaction to what they perceive as the ‘hedonistic’ lifestyle of the West.

the leftist debating technique.

1) shout racist.

2) shoot the messenger but not the message.

3) say “I don’t believe you” for everything to place burden of proof onto opponent for any position, when opponent provides more proof, refer back to number 2.

4) “Prove” your point by using an anecdote which supports your point.

5) If in doubt, blame it on the beleagured BNP, they don’t do fatwas and are bankrupt and are hence a soft catch-all target.

There you go, I just saved you four years of lectures from a crusty old Trot professor. That should save you some tuition fees!

86. Chaise Guevara

@ Concerned

“Islam isn’t a race, it’s a totalitarian ideology. That’s the point.”

Jesus wept. It’s a religion, actually. Large parts of it may embrace totalitarianism, but that doesn’t make them one and the same.

“OK, second and third generation muslims may become secular liberals, that’s true, but might they not also become even more radical than their parents…The 7/7 bombings would seem to support this thesis, being that the perpetrators were predominantly born and raised in Britain.

So couldn’t the scenario I paint indeed also be worse than I suggest, as well as not so bad.”

Sure. But you’re picking a small group of individuals who, unsurprisingly, had a lot of media time devoted to them. Papers don’t normally spend days on end writing front-page headlines about a single family of liberal Muslims. This is what we call an “anecdote”.

Of course some people go the other way. They always do. But in any country, second/third-generation immigrants tend to be more in tune with that nation’s overall culture than the people who actually immigrated.

“It disturbs me a little bit that you think there are no bad consequences for White people when they become an ethnic minority. A similar process is underway in a place called Tibet and it seems to be a bad thing for the Tibetan people, some commentators even call it “genocide”.”

Really? So if/when whites become the minority in this country (even though that would still leave them as the single largest racial group), what exactly do you think will happen? What do you, Concerned, fear will happen when blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc. outnumber us?

“Why do you hate White people so much anyway?”

Please show me the bit where I said that I hate white people. I obviously MUST have said it, because I’m sure you wouldn’t make random attacks based on vapid non-sequiturs.

“You’re a moral vacuum and an apologist for rapists.”

Why not just call me a smelly poo-head and be done with it? It’s weird that you’re whinging about ad hom attacks earlier in this thread, given that you’re obviously very happy to use them yourself.

87. Chaise Guevara

@ 74 Benc

“Furthermore, the idea that ‘the real story, when it comes to British religion, is the number of people converting to godlessness’ fits with Steyn’s thesis. He argues that the collapsing faith in Christianity is leaving a vacuum that will come, in time, to be filled by Islam.

I wonder, did the author even read the book? Or more importantly, does he understand any of it?”

I’d certainly be interested in knowing why he thinks people would go from Christian religiousness to atheism to Islamic religiousness. Because that’s something of a random rebound.

Telegraph is far too skint to do proper journalism. I’d easily imagine it making a deal with black propagandists just for the exclusives that would make it look like a real newspaper.


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    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  34. Elaine O'Neill

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  35. Hi-Fibre

    RT @Leischa: Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? http://t.co/ey5MxhC No – people are eager to be misinformed about the spread o …

  36. Tony Dowling

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  37. Brian Thompson

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  38. dave young

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  39. brillmort

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  40. ST

    RT @averyps: EDL-types and anyone believing nonsense 'Islamification of Britain' stories should read this http://is.gd/ka54o

  41. mo ali

    RT @catvincent: Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite, in fact http://bit.ly/idOqFm

  42. Nemesis Republic

    @Exposingtweets Did you read this earlier? 'Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain' http://tinyurl.com/2fzdugy #EDL #UAF etc

  43. Nick Doody

    RT @DuncanStott RT @libcon: Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact http://bit.ly/i8FNd6

  44. Mike

    RT @NickDoody: RT @DuncanStott RT @libcon: Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact http://bit.ly/i8FNd6

  45. steve white

    Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact | Liberal Conspiracy http://t.co/guuI9D4 via @libcon

  46. Jim Richardson

    Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact. Matt Hill http://j.mp/fnk5FG v @libcon @lostexpectation

  47. Un:dhimmi

    RT @edwestonline: More @libcon delusion about Islam. Seem to believe UK is 2.3% Muslim. Pew say its 4.6% http://bit.ly/i8FNd6 http://tin

  48. Out of England

    RT @edwestonline: More @libcon delusion about Islam. Seem to believe UK is 2.3% Muslim. Pew say its 4.6% http://bit.ly/i8FNd6 http://tin

  49. Liz

    RT @DuncanStott RT @libcon: Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact http://bit.ly/i8FNd6

  50. Akusia

    RT @edwestonline: More @libcon delusion about Islam. Seem to believe UK is 2.3% Muslim. Pew say its 4.6% http://bit.ly/i8FNd6 http://tin

  51. Jon Pelling - London

    "Ignore the headlines: there’s never been a better time or place to believe in nothing much": http://bit.ly/hvmFRM

  52. Sam

    Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact | Liberal Conspiracy http://instapaper.com/z7yawxi1c

  53. Guardian says EDL “not racist, but sectarian” « Casuals United Blog

    [...] Conspiracy has a post playing down a story about conversions to Islam, one which almost perfectly encapsulates the liberal delusion over Islam: But more striking is the generational change the survey reveals. While 76.3% of people say they [...]

  54. The “Islamification of Britain” in context | HumanistLife

    [...] Full article: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/01/05/are-we-seeing-the-islamification-of-britain-the-opposite-inf… [...]

  55. Rachel Hubbard

    Are we seeing the Islamification of Britain? The opposite in fact | Liberal Conspiracy http://goo.gl/WR2I4

  56. It’s not liberals deluded about Islam – it’s conservatives | Liberal Conspiracy

    [...] Islam? That’s what Ed West, a blogger at The Telegraph, alleges in response to an article I wrote arguing that a negligible growth in the numbers of British Muslims offers little to be worried [...]





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