I’m delighted to see this got published on Liberal Conspiracy.

Hopefully Rehman’s campaign will be successful; laws like these should be opposed wherever they remain on the statute books. Western governments in particular should be doing a lot more to ensure that all countries where such legislation exists are made aware that it will adversely affect their interests in just the same way as political repression.

Protesters demanded the death of Aasia Bibi, right, the first woman to have been sentenced to death under the law (in November), who fell foul of the law for her Roman Catholic beliefs. One leading campaigner said he’d give 6,000 dollars to anyone who killed her.

Persecuted for thought crime. Sickening.

If religious bigotry only ever went as far as a few nasty cartoons or a few holy books being burnt, the world would be a far far better place.

5

I doubt many people would accept that “nasty” cartoons about a particular religion (whether the cartoons originally published in Denmark or something else) is the same as the kind of institutionalised barbarism dealt with in the OP.

6, um that’s the point. Read my post more carefully

7 reuben

Apologies if I mis-read or misinterpreted your intent.

I’m still not sure that “nasty” cartoons about a particular religion necessarily = bigotry however?

@ 7 Galen10

“I’m still not sure that “nasty” cartoons about a particular religion necessarily = bigotry however?”

Not necessarily, no. Depends entirely on the cartoon. There is a tendency among religious groups (and others) to act as if criticism or mockery against them is the same thing as bigotry or oppression.

I’m in full agreement that cartoons and state-sanctioned oppression are totally different subjects, and that the former should be legal and the latter banned.

Where is the Pakistani liberal society?
I ask because I don’t know. I’m guessing that there isn’t one, or any that there is can just be drowned out by some backward imams calling for demonstrations after friday prayers. And that this situation will go on and on, with their brightsest people just immigrating.

8 Chaise

Exactly.. that is the point I was trying (and obviously failing) to make

9 damon

I suspect you are right, and that many have already voted with their feet and left. It is of course easy for us to pass judgement from the comfort of our (relatively) free and liberal democracies in the west; things probably look a good deal different if you are a Pakistani liberal, or non-muslim having to deal with the reality of being hounded by religious wingnuts calling for you to be killed.

[11] “It is of course easy for us to pass judgement from the comfort of our (relatively) free and liberal democracies in the west” – but such conditions do not arise in a cultural vacuum, they usually have to be fought for, despite the malign influence of religious nutters who actually advocate killing people for “insulting Islam”.

Anyway are the teachings of the Quran so opaque that nobody actually understands them – or does the big book really promote extreme violence, as well as all the other chauvinistic bullshit one associates with oppressive theocracies?

@ damon – there are plenty of feminists in Pakistan. But I guess you wouldn’t like what they have to say either.

Good post Jim. Thanks.

@ 12 a&e

” such conditions do not arise in a cultural vacuum, they usually have to be fought for, despite the malign influence of religious nutters who actually advocate killing people for “insulting Islam”.”

As you say, usually – but a lot of the time this takes more the form of cultural drift which a few lynchpin legal or political battles than one big, dangerous operation. Which is to say that if I complain about, say, the fact that state schools by law have to be religious, I’m not in danger of having my head cut off.

A British local councilor is bravely trying to save Asia Bibi’s life. See http://wthrockmorton.com/2010/12/27/uk-councillor-urges-pakistans-government-to-protect-christian-minorities-and-to-take-action-against-hate-speech/

I’m surprised that Cllr Raza Anjum’s efforts haven’t received more publicity.

Earwicga, I’ll try to ignore your implication.
I would wecome the growth of feminism in much of the world.
What kind of feminism, could be a big debate and bunfight just like in western countries.
Was it to be the Julie Bindel varirty or yours?

If you know of these feminists in Pakistan why not tell us a bit more about the movement?
Names even, and their class. If they are all from the wealthy class then it does undermine their importance somewhat.
When people start threads on places like India, Pakistan or wherever, I just wish a bit more was delivered. Make a vague opening post by all means, but then come back in the comments for follow up replies.

I have the idea that Pakistan is somewhat of a failed state like Somalia and Afghanistan.
Or perhaps a crude and vulgar state like the BRIC countries, (Brazil, Russia, India, China) which are improving economically, but remain seriouslly backward culturally and socially as far as any of the issues close to the hearts of LC readers and commentators.

A&E

> Anyway are the teachings of the Quran so opaque that nobody actually understands them – or does the big book really promote extreme violence

The Quran teachings are not opaque.
They do promote violence – eg mainstream islam both Sunni + Shia agrees that apostates deserve the death penalty.

Not all Muslim countries enshrine that in secular law as such; but the theologians and leading religious figures don’t argue against it.

Which it makes it rather risky to try to change things within Islam – once you accused of insulting Islam/Allah, it’s a small step to accuse you of no longer being a Muslim… and hence the penalty for apostasy hangs over you.

I personally know 2 former Muslims, who have been physically attacked (GBH and then attempted murder) in my small UK market town – attacked by other muslims for having given up their faith.

Surely one of the main problems with Pakistan is that it was specifically founded as a confessional state, an Islamic breakaway from a nominally secular India, and by definition political discourse is often focussed through and expressed in religious terms, often with politicians playing to the gallery in appealing to conservative socio-religious elements. Add to this the general economic, political and social problems that have faced what is essentially a sliver sliced off India 60 years back, and one can see that the problems faced by any modernising trends in Pakistan are enormous.

There is a danger — I don’t know if it applies in this case — that if secularising reforms are not presented as part of a broad series of social reforms that benefit the bulk of the population, religious politicians and institutions will present them as culturally alien and indeed foreign intrusions into the nation’s heritage. This is the case in today’s Iran, where calls for secular reforms are also derided by the government as a middle-class fad.

That the religious institutions and politicians in Pakistan are able to mobilise a general strike against a modernising tendency makes me think that mullahs and rabble-rousers are unfortunately getting the upper hand.

We seem to be locked into the notion that Islam has this fixation with stoning as a means of executing those deemed guilty of infractions of holy laws. In fact, stoning as a means of execution has much older historic roots. Try this from the book of Deuteronomy 22:20-21 in the Old Testament (King James’s version):

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A13-21&version=KJV

@ 19

Oh, absolutely – but AFAIK the places that still use stoning today are Islamic states.

I must admit that enjoyed this video clip on YouTube of a stoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsVAYFSEBrA

Today there is virulent propaganda against Islam in the international media, in international newspapers and magazines, on radio broadcast stations and satellite TV channels. A section of the media is attacking Islam, and this has reached epidemic levels especially after eleventh of September, 2001.

The punishment for blasphemy in most of the major religions is death. It is stated in the Old Testament of the Bible, which is the authority for both the Jews and the Christians:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: [Book of Leviticus 24:16]

Moreover, if we read Manusmriti, the Law book of the Hindus, it says:

“If a man born of a lower class intentionally bothers a priest, the king should punish him physically with various forms of corporal and capital punishment that make men shudder.” [Manusmriti 9:248]

Regarding the punishment for blasphemy in Islam, it is mentioned in the Glorious Qur’an:

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” [Surah Al-Maidah 5:33]. In Islam, a person who has committed blasphemy can either be killed or crucified, or his opposite hands and feet can be cut off, or he can be exiled from that land. On the other hand, in other religions there is no other option except capital punishment. Islam at least has four options of punishment for an act of blasphemy.

Leviticus 24:13-16. Then the LORD said to Moses: “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: ‘If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

And about those who proselytise in the name of other gods:
Deuteronomy 13:7-12. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

[22] is your point that these scriptures are equally abhorrent or that they in some way exonerate Islam?

The problem is once people start taking this sort of mumbo jumbo seriously it isn’t too long before people are killed – as Salman Taseer found to his great cost?

@16

“If they are all from the wealthy class then it does undermine their importance somewhat.”

Mmm, because each and every feminist in the Suffragette movement had salt-of-t’earth working-class roots, right..?

C’mon, don’t be silly now.

22 Usama

People might be more convinced about the protestations and claims in your opening paragraph about how badly Islam is treated, if we could see more evidence from mainstream Muslims that they felt the death penalty for blasphemy in Pakistan was wrong and should be repealed, and that it was not acceptable to call for the death of apostates.

Neither is acceptable under any circumstances, no matter which bunch of religious wing nuts think their holy book gives them license to reject basic human rights.

@ 22 Usama

So basically, you’re excusing the monstrous excesses of Islam by pointing out similar monstrous excesses mandated by or carried out in the name of other religions?

There’ll be no need for “virulent propaganda” against Islam if its followers go around saying things like “We don’t HAVE to execute him for expressing his opinions, we could just cut his feet off! First offense and all that!”

It’s vile, and whinging that other people are equally vile is no excuse.

Mislead people of Pakistan combined with uneducated communities end up sucking up Pakistan blood. I love Islam but I am completely against the fact that if someone has said anything against Islam we go on killing them. FIRST! we Pakistanis, together, need to embrace Islam ourselves in order to even imagine taking a stand for such a big step. Don’t we ourselves go against Islam every day of our lives by not praying by girls not covering their heads in the open with guys and girls flirting around by not reciting quran by listening to music all the time? We need to rid ourselves of these minor issues in order to become a greater muslim. And we dont kill people who dont understand islam.. we make them understand so we as muslims can increase in number and bring more people into our religion. If this was the case, There wouldnt be so many Humans in the world left to talk like this. We are such suck-ups to the west and they are the worst people against islam. but every one wants to go to LONDON. lol