David Cameron lies, what a shock!

I heard that only one officer on horseback had been injured, what I didn’t realise was that it was his own horse wot did it

It looks like the officer’s saddle wasn’t secured tightly enough and it slipped, throwing him with it.

Mr Cameron’s wider point was accurate, though: There was significant violence directed at the police and they sustained injuries as a result.

The police beat protesters, the police got hit back, Adrian.

But Cameron made a statement that was a lie, based on no actual facts that have yet been uncovered (if they are, happy to retract, but I’ve not seen any).

There’s no point pointing to ‘broader issue’ – since he’s using specific incidents to marginalise students.

What’s the bit of footage before the horse is skittering around? My recollection at the time was reading on twitter that a horse was startled by a firework and the rider came off as a result of that.

Sunny,

You and I know that there was extensive rioting. Masonry and other missiles thrown at the police. Fireworks and flares. Fencing used as battering rams against police lines and government buildings. Not to mention the small matter of the attack on the politically-neutral heir to the throne and his consort.

I’ve got no idea whether Mr Cameron intentionally lied about the officer “being pulled from his horse” or simply was misinformed about that particular detail. You don’t know either. What’s not in doubt is that Mr Cameron doesn’t have to go very far to “marginalise” students: People just had to turn on BBC News or Sky News to see what was going on.

Do the police’s tactics and behaviour deserve scrutiny? Of course they do. But it’s clear to me that the student movement needs to marginalise the rioters in its midst if it’s going to be taken seriously as a legitimate democratic force.

But it’s quite “acceptable” for Cameron to make attractive policy promises about healthcare services at the election in May to gather votes and then renege on those promises just seven months later after being elected to government?

“David Cameron has denied that ‘tough’ decisions on spending will mean cuts to frontline health services while campaigning in marginal seats he needs to win to secure overall victory.” [Nursing Times, 4 May 2010]
http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/news-topics/conservative-party/cuts-wont-hit-frontline-nhs-insists-cameron/5014238.article

Gosh, look how desperate people are to re-tweet this story.

I was there and saw what happened. Protesters set off fireworks, trying to hit the police but in some cases almost hitting other protesters. I also saw the protesters deliberately aiming for the police horses.

There was violence on both sides. The only difference is that violence by the students – pissing on the statue of Churchill, swinging on the Cenotaph, etc – just loses them masses of support among those who aren’t already in agreement with them and who might otherwise have had some sympathy for them.

Cameron is not lieing. This is a coalition. We have to accept that a coalition version of ‘truth’ is not the same as a pre-election version of ‘truth’.

Anyway truth is subjective and dependent on the perspective of the viewer and the act of viewing itself changes the nature of that viewed, as shown in quantum mechanics. So we caused the horse to throw its rider by the act of viewing it.

Ok, that’s nonsense but it makes more sense than anything Cameron says.

Now we’ve got the quantum mechanics perspective all we need is the animal rights one.

Who was oppressing the horse more, the police rider or the students who may or may not have startled it with firecrackers?

dmob – What’s violent about having a piss?

It is shocking that the bully boy whacking the women with his stick backs off as the horse moves forwards, and then goes back calmly to resume beating the women.

Their body language suggests they are holding on to each other in fear and in no way are presenting any threat to the policeman.

Is this legal ? Can no complaint be made about it ?

. The only difference is that violence by the students – pissing on the statue of Churchill, swinging on the Cenotaph, etc – just loses them masses of support among those who aren’t already in agreement with them and who might otherwise have had some sympathy for them.

The guy who was swining from the Cenotaph has already apologised.

In the grand scheme of things, the grave injury to Alfie Meadows is far more important than someone pissing against the statue of Churchill.

Though it’s clear where Tory sympathies lie.

As for this canard that this violence will lose students support – rubbish. The students are not a political party. And even if most of the public doesn’t like the scenes of violence – they have sympathy for the cause. They won’t punish the Coalition any less just because someone pissed on a statue of Churchill.

As more videos and stories about police brutality come out, public opinion will turn against the police in the same way it did after the G20 protests (when the same arguments were made).

Adrian – agree with your post entirely.

Students seem to think that they are immune from the same scrutiny as everyone else.

Students can’t play this both ways. If it was a small minority, not representative of the majority, then the NUS should condemn the violence. If they refuse to condemn the violence and make statements about passions rising high – then they support the violence as part of their demonstration.

Sunny – we all know the police were goaded and provoked by the usual bunch of nutters. The damage done to The Cenotaph, the Prince of Wales, Treasury and Churchill’s was due to the absence of police.

Glad this footage has been posted there is a lot more out there. Sky in particular has footage of a Policeman going nuts with his baton and a colleague having trouble trying to stop and restrain him.

Trying to access this footage now!!

What if it was discovered that Alfie Meadows received the injuries as a result of other students’ actions?

Like I said, I was there, and I saw protesters setting off fireworks within crowds of each other, god knows why. I also saw masked protesters chucking stuff at the police from behind other protesters, who would then hide whilst the other protesters got hit at by the police.

“already apologised”

Obviously you do not see the damage he did to your cause. He’s a history student, ffs, at Cambridge. And he either couldn’t read “Our Glorious Dead” on the side of the memorial or he didn’t care. Now you want the taxpayer to pick up the bill for that?

You’re nuts if you think public opinion is on your side.

NottheBBC -

Have you got a link to the Sky film please ?

It would be interesting to know whether folk were kettled next to the Churchill statue. It is not beyond the wit of the media to turn a human need to pee into an insult.

Hillsborough comes to mind of another example where normal human reactions were demonised by a newspaper.

Gee, politician says something based on no facts… Tell me something new….

Could have invaded two other countries on trumped up charges… oops, St Tony did that, so won’t mention that.

From the footage, and pics I saw, the protesters trying to swipe their poles at the mounted Police weren’t exactly innocent bystanders. If they got bashed. Tough toffee.

George, theres a time/place to have a piss. Post your address and if we’re passing, we’ll stock up on the coffee beforehand and drop by your front door or maybe your families gravestones, if you like. It could have relieved itself elsewhere.

John Short

Where did they expect them to piss when they kettled them for hours? Two weeks ago people were pissing in Whitehall. It’s a human function, it is not an act of violence.

Even swinging on the cenotaph, which I don’t condone, is not an act of violence. Clubbing someone over the head is.

Do you see the difference?

My friend’s daughter went to the first demo in London, she’s 18, in her first year at uni and this was her first political demo. What she endured and witnessed has put her off demos for a long time, has made her lose total respect for the police and made her question whether we actually live in a democratic and fair country or whether we actually live in a fascist police state.

FACT The police indiscriminately lashed out at anyone and everyone regardless if they were causing trouble or not, male, female, student and non student alike. If those that are employed and expected to uphold the rule of law behave like lawless thugs themselves then more rioting on the streets of this country are sure to follow.

Students seem to think that they are immune from the same scrutiny as everyone else.

No one said that – but they weren’t standing around in protective gear, armed with batons and charging at people with horses. Students don’t have a monopoly on legitimate violence, and it’s therefore important to scrutinise how police treat innocent protesters.

You’re nuts if you think public opinion is on your side.

Like most Tories, it doesn’t look like you can read and comprehend what I said about public opinion. Despite the violence – the public will blame Tories and Libdems for their children’s more expensive education.

What if it was discovered that Alfie Meadows received the injuries as a result of other students’ actions?

Except that all the evidence points to police brutality.

And there’s more evidence of police brutality everywhere.

Even in the video above, where two women are being hit by a police baton despite not doing anything.

HAHA what a joke, so you saw all of the protest, you saw everything that didnt happen on camera, your amazing if you did because all i saw was what happened to be broadcasted and caught on camera. the police did a great job, and if people didnt wanna get involved they should have left.

David Howarth, when in opposition as Lib Dem Shadow Justice Secretary, spoke out against police violence at the London G20 demos.

Will the Lib Dems be raising any objections to police behaviour now they are the government ?

From the NotW’s Sophy Ridge:

Nick Clegg will be crying into his cornflakes tomorrow when he opens News of the World… more bad news on tuition fees.

Sorry, what was that about public opinion?

Sunny,

I think it’s fair to say that violence against the police is widely encouraged and condoned among the student protests and here on this website.

Two questions:

What makes you think that this is an effective strategy for getting what you want?

How many people are you prepared to be killed for you to make your point? That’s where this is going. It’s a miracle that no-one has been killed so far.

Some neanderthal knuckle draggers here seem to think that the police should have carte blanche to smack innocent and non violent protesters over the head because of the actions of a minority of protesters who use provocative or violent tactics.

In simple terms, the Police are out of control. Long before “kettling” or this student demo:

“Officer cleared after killing a man carrying a table leg”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/13/ukguns.hughmuir

“Three Sussex officers avoid prosecution over fatal operation and subsequent cover-up which was damned by two separate inquiries

“In a small Sussex seaside town, at 20 past four in the morning, James Ashley was sleeping naked in his bed. Seconds later, he was on the floor, shot dead at a range of 18ins, by a police officer using a powerful Heckler & Koch carbine.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/secrets-lies-and-.htmlit-after-police-shoot-naked-man-in-bed-685719.html

“Four police officers were guilty of the ‘most serious neglect of duty’ over the death of ex-paratrooper Christopher Alder in 1998, a watchdog has ruled.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/4848238.stm

John Short,

I’d refer you to the comment left here by Paul Sagar, who seems to me to be a reliable witness:

As somebody who was there, I’d like to point out that

a) The horse charge did not calm the situation down, it made it significantly more volatile

b) The horse charge was completely unecessary at that point, and as you can clearly see from the video achieved nothing because protestors had nowhere to go

c) Yes, there *were* prepared troublemakers who had brought weapons to fight the police with – but they were very few in number; the violent actions of the police (battoning people on the floor, punching and kicking anybody within reach) inflamed the situation and turned everybody in the vacinity against them and made it a riot situation

d) A girl from Cambridge did go under a horse and end up with a broken collar bone; she was one of the group I went down with thuogh I didn’t see it happen I know from personal reports that she was in hospital after the horses charged. (I also saw a lad unable to stand with blood pouring from his head after he was battoned from behind)

It is cause and effect, sort of. Who started it? My general impression is that both sides had some folk that were up for it. So, it doesn’t really matter who flung the first stone or battoned the first protestor. The situation is engineered by folk that don’t care about the Police, nor about the protestors, they only care about themselves. I think I can see some similarity to the way war used to be fought in Europe. It was rarely the case that the upper cadré of either side actually died on the battlefield, or were called to account after the battles. They were allowed to go away and lick their wounds so that more cannon fodder could hit each other later. It was a game that royalty played. I have in mind Bonaparte, but there are other examples.

There is no doubt that some demonstrators behaved appallingly. However, context counts for a lot and the police could have done more in the lead up to the demonstration to get the students to police the demonstration themselves. We could call it spontaneous order. Large groups of police there tooled up for a riot can of itself be seen as provocation. Police tooled up for a riot and a riot takes place. Hmm, I wonder if there is a connection. Moreover, as soon as you tell a large group of students that they can’t go to Parliament Square. Is it really a surprise that to Parliament Square is exactly where they will go?

Paul @ 23,

HAHA what a joke, so you saw all of the protest, you saw everything that didnt happen on camera, your amazing if you did because all i saw was what happened to be broadcasted and caught on camera. the police did a great job, and if people didnt wanna get involved they should have left.

Well, yes.

There were numerous cameras pointed on this fracas. I respect and understand the witness testimony that comes out of the internet. I am astounded that you think that what we saw, from numerous digital sources and eye witness accounts
lets you rant and rave.

Kettling means you can’t leave. I’d have thought that was obvious?

Stop blaming the police and look at yourselves!. everything cant be handed to people on a plate! this country as gone down hill for the last ten yrs or so!. free handouts have to stop in all forms so that this country can be great again!. I do not agree with the huge increase and was there yesterday but after watching the students and yes there were students and not just trouble makers causing mayhem and violence! You have lost my vote! Shocking behaviour. I was in the march I knew the route we were taking but when we got to Parliment sq from Gt George St the students didnt want to follow the route so rushed the police. I actually see students punching officers! they then started throwing all manner of things at the horses! At the end of the day there needs to be some sort of structure to these days but unfortunately it wasnt followed!. No one asked the students to pull down the fences! it was so scary in the middle of Parliment Sq and that wasnt to do with the police! You should be so ashamed of yourselves! This country is going to the dogs and these people are suppose to be our future! GOD HELP US!!!

Also I could hear clearly that police stated that if anyone wanted to leave I could via WHITEHALL. If you were pushing at the police lines well you were asking for trouble! they have to defend parliment and the people that are trying to get on with their lives!. After taking a number of photos of students causing trouble which i happily will pass onto the police i left via that route and was spoken to politly by them!. Great respect to them, no respect for students!!

watching the policeman on the horse, you can see two students come from the front of the horse, i really dont think this video is clear evidence he was pulled off or fell off so no one should be commenting! im sure people will, very dangerous!!! if you wasnt there to witness it, shut up

steve,

it was so scary in the middle of Parliment Sq and that wasn’t to do with the police!

So how did you end up in Parliament Sq, what with your cri de coeur of right wing bullshit?

Stop blaming the police and look at yourselves!. everything cant be handed to people on a plate! this country as gone down hill for the last ten yrs or so!. free handouts have to stop in all forms so that this country can be great again!.

How did it feel being kettled, steve? You want to tell us about that?

34.

Steve. The ‘two students’ you referred were unlikely to have pulled the cop off the horse from the opposite side to which he fell as they were fully occupied being assaulted by the cop with the truncheon at the time.

I do find it odd how keen right-wingers are to defend the police, because it’s pretty clear the last government had an important hand in getting them this tooled up, aggressive and armed with offensive legal powers in the first place. You’d think they’d spot the opportunity for some quite legitimate Labour-bashing.

Just more proof that there’s a liberal-authoritarian divide, and it’s perpendicular to the left-right divide.

Sunny said t’other day, “The police have charged into protesters on horses, punched students without provocation and sprayed dangerous chemicals in their face.”

I see he has as much respect for the truth as David Cameron.

@ Alix

I do find it odd how keen right-wingers are to defend the police, because it’s pretty clear the last government had an important hand in getting them this tooled up, aggressive and armed with offensive legal powers in the first place.

I think you’ll find that, along with creating new laws to control the behaviour of the population, beefing up the front line security force is the hallmark of any government with totalitarian pretensions.

You’re right. The last lot did it.

hi. i was actually in parliament square – for 5and a half hours
.what exactly would anyone expect the outcome to be if several thousand impassioned people are confined in a public space outdoors in sub-zero temperatures, without access to food,water and toilet facilities?

i restrained my bladder until after my friend faked diabetes to get through the police cordon around 18.00, we had tried on 5 occasions to take advantage of our right to free passage, we were informed that we were not entitled to do so.

it was at least 3hours after the cordons enforcement before i saw anyone urinate-
and the cordon was in place for 4hours before the vandalism began.

so the results of the experiment are clear, when impassioned humans are imprisoned outdoors in freezing temperatures, they will after a few hours begin to lose inhibitions and perform bodily functions.
additionally the effect of low temperatures and dehydration may well be that the impassioned ,frustrated humans will begin to show signs of frustration and that this may be directed towards their gaolers and the physical environment of their prison.

In the video, the man with the white backpack on. Is he a protestor? Could he have done something to the horse or rider before the camera started rolling?

paul @ 40,

says this steve:

so the results of the experiment are clear, when impassioned humans are imprisoned outdoors in freezing temperatures, they will after a few hours begin to lose inhibitions and perform bodily functions.
additionally the effect of low temperatures and dehydration may well be that the impassioned ,frustrated humans will begin to show signs of frustration and that this may be directed towards their gaolers and the physical environment of their prison.

Were you there at all steve? How was your bladder holding up at the end of the kettling?

Can we now assume that steve wasn’t fucking there, and that paul and others were?

Who the fuck is ‘steve’.

I’m surprised the students didn’t use mace on the horse. A scoot of that on the horses nose will send it berzerk and throw the rider.

Ian,

Show me the stop motion that supports what you say here:

In the video, the man with the white backpack on. Is he a protestor? Could he have done something to the horse or rider before the camera started rolling?

For, frankly I haven’t seen it.

@44 You can’t see it, as its before the video of the incident starts and the camera focuses. As the policeman falls off the horse, a man in a white backpack walks away from the camera (and the horse) and is met by another officer. I don’t know what happened immediately prior to the start of the clip, I’m just suggesting it as a possibility that this man may have been involved.

The students are just getting boring now…most ppl are fed up with them complaining and the legislation has only just been passed. If there was a referendum on cuts and where they were gona fall and the choice was no student fee increases v cuts to pensions, healthservice or schools, then students would see that most people wouldnt care less about their cause and in fact would support fee increases.

Funny how the student protests are very ‘me me me’ orientated…demonstrating cause it affects them…those working in the Universities supporting the students plight because its about ‘them’ and their long term future in work.

Why should everyone else foot the bill for students to go to uni? You are all 18, you are all adults…you are the ones who benefit..you are going so you can get high flying jobs with big salaries. A student can go 18 yrs without education costing a penny to them or their families, at the cost of the taxpayer..there is a point where you need to take the cost of something, its only fair.

#44; eh? You don’t need any stop motion. There are people in front of the horse, they *could* have done something that caused it throw the rider (or they might not, but nobody said they definitely did)

The white horse is a red herring.

In terms of the general disorder it matters not whether the rider fell or was pushed.

@ 46

“Why should everyone else foot the bill for students to go to uni? You are all 18, you are all adults…you are the ones who benefit..you are going so you can get high flying jobs with big salaries. ”

You could just as well say that students are the ones who, having been told that they are expected to pay off everyone else’s debts, are now being told that they won’t even get the support offered to previous generations to pursue education that would put them in a position to pay off that debt. Their concerns are legitimate.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure I can’t actually see any actual baton strikes in that video. He’s certainly waving it around, but I can’t see it make contact, and they don’t appear to react.

@46:

This is one powerful reason for caring about how many students in Britain go through higher education a year:

“The UK has fallen from third to fifteenth in the international league of graduate numbers between 2000 and 2008, according to OECD figures.

“According to this measure, there are now 30% of men and 40% of women in each year group in the UK leaving with degrees.

“It’s not that the UK has fewer graduates, the number has risen year after year – it’s that the number has not increased as rapidly as other industrial nations.

“The UK has been overtaken by countries such as Poland, Portugal, the Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Denmark.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11438140

“Tuition fees in England among highest in world” – Compare tuition fees in France:
http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/public-services/higher-education/fees/

@49

‘You could just as well say that students are the ones who, having been told that they are expected to pay off everyone else’s debts, are now being told that they won’t even get the support offered to previous generations to pursue education that would put them in a position to pay off that debt. Their concerns are legitimate’

Everyone is having to pay off the countries debt, and whilst I resent that (as I & probably you had nothing to do with it, it was caused by years of socialist funding & involvement in every aspect of ppl’s lives) so you’re saying that we should pay for that as well as students university fees???? Times change, what was free yesterday cannot be taken for granted that it will be free tmrw when a country is in the red financially…by your reckoning free education should be extended well into peoples twenties/ thirties so that ppl can get Masters and PHD level qualifications to better themselves at the tax payers extent..

I’m in my 30′s ..there are courses I think hmmm, that’d be nice, I could get a nice different job if I did that course now..so should everyone else pay for that too so that I can better myself….

yes I respect that graduates will hopefully land good jobs and contribute highly to the system..but lets not pretend thats the moral compass they follow by wanting to go to university please…its about self interest, self gain..not about the good of the many.

Tbh I dont care what caused the horse to throw the rider, the point is that Cameron still made assumptions, the police horseman was not pulled from his horse and beaten the vid clearly shows this thus Cameron is a liar.

Im not sure I support vilolence to get your opinion accross but I do understand why the protestors are so angry in the first place, I know my blood boils every time this millionare tells us we are all in this together, hypocrisy springs to mind.

most of the placards i saw were fees related, granted but a large proportion refferred to general attacks on the states provision for its population and a sizeable number referred to tax evasion also. im guessing that clamping down on 25billion of tax evasion would , long-term have a more profound downward effect on your tax-bill than detterring the poor from educating themselves to a standard which enables them to pay tax, rather than be in the kind of low paid job which requires the state to pay your housing costs.

as it stands council tenants in london are having their rents doubled-to a sum which equates to a full weeks minimum wage in rent -each week. this will require housing benefit payments of all of the increase and probably most of the rent.

idealogically driven, economic madness. thats what we were protesting about.

and when 10′s of 000′s of workers start to lose their jobs, and bars and restaurants begin to lose trade and lay off staff, the numbers marching will increase massively.

Why are ppl so hung up on David Cameron’s comments…the point is that there were ppl there trying to injure police and horses and also inevitably to knock them off…the comment was not a deliberate falsification…watch the news, projectiles were being thrown.. its clear that there were idiots there hell bent on causing trouble, physical harm and destruction to property…

@52: “Everyone is having to pay off the countries debt, and whilst I resent that (as I & probably you had nothing to do with it, it was caused by years of socialist funding & involvement in every aspect of ppl’s lives)”

So it has absolutely nothing to do with those bankers who wrecked the banks they worked for, threatening the collapse of Britain’s financial system?

This was the diagnosis of Martin Wolf in the Financial Times:

“Can we not at least blame Mr Brown for the bloated public spending and grotesque fiscal deficits? Yes, but also only up to a point. Between 1999-2000 and 2007-08, the ratio of total managed spending to GDP did rise from 36.3 per cent to 41.1 per cent. But the latter was still modest, by the standards of the previous four decades. The jump to a ratio of 48.1 per cent, forecast for this year in the 2010 Budget, is due to the recession. Nominal spending is currently forecast at 3.5 per cent higher in 2010-11 than forecast in the 2008 Budget. But nominal GDP will be 10.3 per cent lower and tax revenues 16.4 per cent lower. Critics of his fiscal policies were right, but the error was far larger than anybody imagined. It is true, however, that Mr Brown must take a share of the blame for Labour’s failure to ensure the extra spending would be well managed.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3074d7ba-5ec0-11df-af86-00144feab49a.html

Instructive interview in the FT of Carmen Reinhart on recurring patterns in 800 years of financial crises:
http://video.ft.com/v/82349517001/May-3-800-years-of-financial-crises

She is co-author of a book with Kenneth Rogoff: This Time Is Different – 8oo years of financial crises (Princeton UP, 2009)
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/files/faculty/51_This_Time_Is_Different.pdf

Rogoff, now at Harvard, was previously chief economist at the IMF.

Ian @ 45,You can’t see it, as its before the video of the incident starts and the camera focuses. As the policeman falls off the horse, a man in a white backpack walks away from the camera (and the horse) and is met by another officer. I don’t know what happened immediately prior to the start of the clip, I’m just suggesting it as a possibility that this man may have been involved.

So, is it on camera elsewhere or it earlier tape we haven’t seen, or what?

After 3 demonstrations with varying levels of violence it’s a great shame that these self indulgent antics have devalued any validity there may be to the protests.

I have paid taxes for 42 years so far to send countless students to university, and frankly I no longer believe there are sufficient graduate jobs to justify more and more graduates, so I believe they’ve got it right in raising fees.

Labour used expansion of university places as a means of warehousing people so cutting youth unemployment .

Btw my last years earnings were around £17k

@58: “frankly I no longer believe there are sufficient graduate jobs to justify more and more graduates,”

Yeah – I can recall then saying that 10 and even 50 years ago.

Yes bankers are partly to blame…but so was Labour spending money that wasnt tehre like a bunch of drunken sailors.We must remember that toxic debt = toxic debtors …the mentality of ‘the bank lent me x amount of money , thats their fault, they should never have lent me that under my circumstances’ doesnt cut the mustard with me as most debtors do their best to convince the bank otherwise when they want the money.

Redndead; number of jobs isn’t fixed. Increasing the number of graduates can also increase the total number of graduate jobs.

We’ve got no meaningful raw materials or exportable energy supplies, we’re too expensive to make basic manufacturing work. What else do we have to offer the world if we don’t focus on educating large numbers of people?

@ 52

“Everyone is having to pay off the countries debt, and whilst I resent that (as I & probably you had nothing to do with it, it was caused by years of socialist funding & involvement in every aspect of ppl’s lives) so you’re saying that we should pay for that as well as students university fees????”

LOL. So the left are to blame for the global financial meltdown and not, say, stock traders? That’s such a bizarre statement that I’m not surprised you felt the need to hide it in paranthesis.

“Times change, what was free yesterday cannot be taken for granted that it will be free tmrw when a country is in the red financially…by your reckoning free education should be extended well into peoples twenties/ thirties so that ppl can get Masters and PHD level qualifications to better themselves at the tax payers extent..”

Did I say that? No. But let’s play the straw man game, if you like: by YOUR argument, then, we should charge everyone for education, from the age of five onwards.

Look, the time that people need money for education the most is almost by definition the time that they find it hardest to get hold of independently. It just doesn’t make sense economically speaking for people with academic or technical skills to waste 5 years in a dead-end job saving up to go to uni.

After the bankers and politicians, the people most to blame for the financial crisis are those who borrowed unwisely from those bankers and voted for those politicians. That doesn’t make everyone over the age of 30 personally responsible, but it does seem ludicrous to impose the heaviest penalties on the one group of people least responsible.

@ 55 Chris

“Why are ppl so hung up on David Cameron’s comments…the point is that there were ppl there trying to injure police and horses and also inevitably to knock them off…the comment was not a deliberate falsification”

Your mistake is to assume that there was only one “point” to be drawn from these events. There were several. One, as you say, was unacceptable violence from protesters. Another was unaccpetable behaviour by police. A third is the fact that the PM is either commenting on things he knows nothing about or, worse, is deliberately lying to the country to further his political aims. I’m surprised you think that’s irrelevant.

@63: “A third is the fact that the PM is either commenting on things he knows nothing about or, worse, is deliberately lying to the country to further his political aims. I’m surprised you think that’s irrelevant.”

With that and the broken election pledges, Cameron and Clegg have destroyed their own credibility.

‘Did I say that? No. But let’s play the straw man game, if you like: by YOUR argument, then, we should charge everyone for education, from the age of five onwards.’

Nope…I clearly put my position accross in my first post when I stated at 18 students are adults..nobody has to pay for education until then…so you misread my argument..

as for ‘So the left are to blame for the global financial meltdown and not, say, stock traders?’…

hmmm, who repealed the Glass-Steagal Act that DID trigger the GFC ….Bill Clinton in 1999 when he repealed the Glass-Steagall Act 1932 and deregulated financial institutions…

Sorry to send a coach and horses through your arguement..furthermore its been Socialist governments across the world that have been hit hardest by the crisis..the ‘PIGS’ due to huge government spending.

@ 64

Agreed, insofar as any politician who said we could we could compensate for major cuts to services through some nebulous concept of the “big society” (jazz hands!) had any damn credibility to begin with.

My worry, unsurprisingly, is that Cameron will succeed in using Clegg as an outrage-shield and walk out of this whole fiasco relatively unscathed, when in fact he’s the most responsible.

@63

‘Your mistake is to assume that there was only one “point” to be drawn from these events. There were several. One, as you say, was unacceptable violence from protesters. Another was unaccpetable behaviour by police. A third is the fact that the PM is either commenting on things he knows nothing about or, worse, is deliberately lying to the country to further his political aims. I’m surprised you think that’s irrelevant.’

As to DC’s comment, I refer you back to my previous post..the police were being targeted..he was not referring to ‘all’ protesters…it doesnt take a nuclear physicist to know that if you go to a demo where trouble makers have already shown up twice previously, and if your in teh vicinity where police are having projectiles thrown, then your more than likely gona be hit by a truncheon..

@ 65 Chris

“Nope…I clearly put my position accross in my first post when I stated at 18 students are adults..nobody has to pay for education until then…so you misread my argument..”

No I didn’t. Look up ‘straw man’. I was putting forward a deliberately invalid argument to mirror your own invalid argument. I did make that fairly clear.

“hmmm, who repealed the Glass-Steagal Act that DID trigger the GFC ….Bill Clinton in 1999 when he repealed the Glass-Steagall Act 1932 and deregulated financial institutions…

Sorry to send a coach and horses through your arguement..”

LOL! So I blame the right, and you destroy my argument by blaming a right-wing politician for carrying out a right-wing policy? Dear me. I think the coach and horses took a wrong turn somewhere.

“furthermore its been Socialist governments across the world that have been hit hardest by the crisis..the ‘PIGS’ due to huge government spending.”

Meh. Selective data. What about South America? I agree that heavy government spending can exacerbate the problem, but the problem would never have existed in the first place were it not for financial irresponsibility made possible by lack of regulation.

@ 67

“As to DC’s comment, I refer you back to my previous post..the police were being targeted..he was not referring to ‘all’ protesters…”

No, he was lying about a specific incident. Tell me again why that’s ok? Your previous post doesn’t seem to cover it.

“it doesnt take a nuclear physicist to know that if you go to a demo where trouble makers have already shown up twice previously, and if your in teh vicinity where police are having projectiles thrown, then your more than likely gona be hit by a truncheon..”

Oh, for god’s sake. So it’s not the police’s fault for assaulting people, it’s the victims’ fault for foolishly turning up and expressing their views. I mean, at a political rally? That’s neither the time nor the place!

I really, really want to see “well he shouldn’t of bin standin there” used as a defense by a copper accused of violence. I doubt it would be as effective as you think.

@14 “Students seem to think that they are immune from the same scrutiny as everyone else”

Where on earth does that bit of nonsense come from?

65. Chris

” hmmm, who repealed the Glass-Steagal Act that DID trigger the GFC ….Bill Clinton in 1999 when he repealed the Glass-Steagall Act 1932 and deregulated financial institutions…”

The old Bill Clinton did it canard. Let’s see the Glass-Steagal Act was repealed by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act. Phil Gramm Republican, Jim Leach Republican and Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. Republican. See any common denominator?

Oh but it was Bill Clinton, and it is the Queen who is raising tuition fees in this country.

@68.

Meh. Selective data. What about South America? I agree that heavy government spending can exacerbate the problem, but the problem would never have existed in the first place were it not for financial irresponsibility made possible by lack of regulation.

Yes Latin America…predominantly Socialist …and th epoint being?..you cant possibly being using them as a bastion of economic success?

You are using the police hit students manipulation in the same way others are manipulating the troublemakers..the actions of one or two police do not represent the whole (my criticism has not been of the protests but about students paying their way as adults)…the overall concensus is that the police were not overly heavy handed on any of the occasions..those that were were probably reacting to the grotesque way they were were being treated..but thats a subjective point, I cannot prove it. I very much doubt a shot wld have been fired had some students not rampaged and attacked.

I was at Millbank on the first occasion..it was outrageous that the police stood there and let students smash up property that was not theirs regardless of their motivation.

@71…right ..so the Clinton administration didnt push for the repeal? Was’nt on Bill Clinton’s watch was it..Democrat Seantors and Congressman killed teh Glass-Steagl Act.

The Police horse. The only animal with a cunt on its back.

@13

In the grand scheme of things, the grave injury to Alfie Meadows is far more important than someone pissing against the statue of Churchill.

Though it’s clear where Tory sympathies lie.

It gets worse: according to ITN, Alfie Meadows was initially denied hospital treatment because the hospital had instructions to only treat police officers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsnt2A_m2TU

” right ..so the Clinton administration didnt push for the repeal? Was’nt on Bill Clinton’s watch was it..Democrat Seantors and Congressman killed teh Glass-Steagl Act. ”

Of course Republicans do whatever is being pushed by a Democratic President. The two of the parties were in favour of repeal. To try and blame Clinton because he was the President at the time is lame. Anyway the repeal of Glass-Steagal had only a minor role to play in the GFC and there never was any equivalent regulatory restrictions in the UK.

House vote:
Republicans voted 207-5 in favor with 10 not voting. Democrats voted 155-51 in favor, with 5 not voting. Independent-Socialist Rep. Bernard Sanders of Vermont voted no.

Senate vote:
Democratic yes 38 no 7
Republican yes 52 no 1 not voting 2

@ 72 Chris

“Yes Latin America…predominantly Socialist …and th epoint being?..you cant possibly being using them as a bastion of economic success?”

Since the crash? Yes, I am. South America is flying at the moment, as are most emerging economies, left or right. The downturn has been good to these countries. So what? The point is that correlation isn’t causation. You can’t just grab a couple of socialist countries that are doing poorly and say: “hey, socialism sucks, and that means that the economic meltdown is all the fault of the left!”

“You are using the police hit students manipulation in the same way others are manipulating the troublemakers..the actions of one or two police do not represent the whole…”

No I bloody well am not. I fully recognise that the violent cops were bad apples, in exactly the same way as the violent protestors. The difference is that with the police there’s someone in charge, which means we can demand that they make changes to the organisation to prevent this sort of thing. The NUS is not the employer of students or protesters, and thus has no direct control over them.

In other words, I’m not like the idiot @73

@Chaise Guevara – The police are nothing but corrupt bastards and deserve everything they get. They are not our friends, they would grass their own mothers up to get a promotion. I hope there is plenty more riots to come.

78. Martial

I’m now imagining your post with the word “police” replaced with the word “niggers”. You know, just to get into your mindset.

Revolution =/= bigotry.

All of you who have been so quick to make a snap decision on a few seconds of video footage need to see the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4rvYSM-Zpg&feature=player_detailpage#t=45s

Watch from 40 seconds into the video and concentrate on the top left of the picture where you can see the two protestors interfere with the police horse such that the policeman falls to the ground. That is why in your piece of footage you can see a policeman reacting to them, waving a baton and eventually having them taken away by police officers.

I trust that in the interests of accuracy you will all be retweeting that clip too and adding it to your blogs. You wouldn’t want to be accused of sensationalist bias.

Re post 80:

Interesting video. I would say two things: firstly, Cameron said that there had been “scenes of police officers being dragged off police horses and beaten”. Note that he says police officers in the plural, that they were dragged off, and that they were beaten. Perhaps two protestors were interfering, but that’s certainly not the same as what he said.

Secondly, that police officer is not waving his baton, he strikes them four times.

Re post 80:

“Hundal, we have a problem”

FAO Mr Hundal

I have provided a link on this page to a video which disproves your accusation that two protestors were attacked without provocation. Instead it shows they caused the police officer to fall from his horse and get trampled.

I have also sent you the link to this video twice on Twitter and still it has been ignored and this biased, incorrect page continues to spread misinformation based upon inadequate evidence.

Please can you explain why you are ignoring it and allowing your website to spread lies? It’s almost as if you have an agenda.

Douglas Clark – nice use of words! aggressive ! i guess you were there throwing sticks! No I wasnt kettled because i followed the police advice and left via Whitehall as everyone else could of. But maybe if i had been i would of done some study! As a student I do have some to do !
And for the muppet that mentioned about the students not attacking the copper on the horse! glad more footage has been shown.
You idiots that wanted to cause trouble/distruction and violence – what did you think would be achieved! it hasnt mad a blind bit of notice! so people going on about being polite doesnt get you anywhere makes me laugh – what you done last week has only got the backs up of the working public who prob did support you. its not about being right wing Douglas you twat, its about right from wrong and yes the mps cannot get it right so we should damm well try! Im not right wing i have no alliance to any party obviously Douglas does! Im guessing you think your pretty educated but still you fell for another politicians false promises! do you still believe in the tooth fairy and father christmas! bless!!!

Douglas Clark – You have been a busy boy – guess you dont work? are you a student!,
YES I was there. YES I was there to support students! You are one aggressive fella! Thats what I saw alot of on Thur from people like you!
You really should go on a anger management course before going to uni?
I was at the march and I saw violence and destruction by STUDENTS early on! People broke through the police and pulled down fences. police didnt do that it was because students didnt want to be told what to do!
I really hope Douglas isnt the future of this country because again if you dont think his way – its the wrong way! oooh maybe you should go into politics! ask father christmas for a new teddy!!!!

Surely if a stick is thrown at a P.C on ahorse causing (him/Her to fall of tehy are knocked off a horse and when hte stick hits them they are beaten ,so Sunny your comment polce knocked off horese,No, is worng

not only are the police randomly attacking that woman but they are wearing blue bibs which means they are Forward Intelligence Team officers .

FIT officers are notorious for inciting trouble and harrasing protestors with scant legal backing to do so . see the fitwatch website for more info http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/