Watch: police on horses charge students again


by Sunny Hundal    
10:41 pm - December 9th 2010

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Earlier today, a girl from Cambridge was crushed by a horse and had her collar bone broken.

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Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Reader comments


That is absolutely appalling.

I would add to say that if you want to try and stop policing like that happening in the future then you should vote Green as they are the only party that really speak out against it.

Matt,

Yes, and there is no real excuse for it. Unless one thought the function of the police is to protect the state.

Perhaps it is.

Not us, though.

That’s definitely a charge. You can clearly see some of the horses are at a slow canter for several seconds. The last one posted on this site looked ambiguous to me. This one is not.

I’ll try to speak carefully here, because I realise some people are going to misinterpret me as defending this sort of thing. I’m not. It’s no more justified to intimidate/break up/provoke a protest on horseback than it is on foot. But I would like to see *some* of this panic around the horses reduced – for the protestors’ own sake. I think it might be useful if protest groups made this one of their training foci – both to advise on how to deal with charges, and also just to familiarise people with horses, because it’s quite clear from watching people’s reactions on video clips and so on that they aren’t familiar with them. There seems to be quite a lot of needless emotive reaction around their very presence, which in the wrong circumstances could be as dangerous as any charge.

As a rule, horses are big, sweaty, noisy, snorting things, they start at loud noises and roll their eyes, and their movements look sudden and powerful to us smaller creatures, and a herd of them moving is a real spectacle – because that’s how they are, not because they’re about to eat you. Their strength and speed need to be respected in the same way that you’d be careful round moving cars. Of course, when they’re set to canter at you, get out of the bloody way sharpish and call the BBC. But also, don’t imbue them with this exaggerated sense of menace. They’re large animals, and very well trained ones at that, not weapons. There were far more injuries yesterday from burly men with big sticks than the horses. As ever, it’s the humans you need to be scared of.

And *really* don’t throw things at them.

Sunny

Why not show the footage of the copper lying motionless on the ground after someone bottled him?

Or does that not suit your agenda?

I mean, after all only 10 policemen had to go to hospital yesterday, and only 6 of them were seriously injured.

Given the link, you might more accurately have said: someone on Twitter appears to have heard that someone was crushed by a horse…

7. Chaise Guevara

@ 5

“Why not show the footage of the copper lying motionless on the ground after someone bottled him?

Or does that not suit your agenda?”

Sigh. Police accountability goes all the way to the top. Protester accountability rests with the individual. The above video shows that police powers need to be restricted. There’s no way to do that with protesters except making their actions illegal, which (surprise!) assault on a police officer already is.

This isn’t exactly hard.

“I mean, after all only 10 policemen had to go to hospital yesterday, and only 6 of them were seriously injured.”

And 30-odd protesters, if we’re playing a numbers game.

8. Chaise Guevara

@ 6

“Given the link, you might more accurately have said: someone on Twitter appears to have heard that someone was crushed by a horse…”

Agreed.

@7 Chaise

So what are you saying? It’s OK to break the law and injure police officers because *shock horror* they are accountable??

Actually, for balance, nothing I’ve said above applies if their ears go flat backwards against their heads. If that happens, get the fuck out!

Good. I hope they got fucked.

Anyone who thinks that was a charge should remember a couple of things – firstly, the horses were moving slowly enough that a crowd of people were able to move out of the way without being trampled. Secondly, that a charging horse is moving at a speed two to three times the maximum speed of a human running in clear space (unless said human is Usain Bolt…).

So something about those sums do not add up – and that is because these were horses cantering to break up a crowd, not charging. They were not being used as weapons but just to clear an area. If you want to see what a charge of horses can do, can I refer you to the charge in The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King. That is, believe it or not, realistic – people (probably not the time to debate if orcs are equivalent to students…) thrown in the air, trampled, with nowhere to go, no time to react. This was nothing like that – if you think that constitutes a charge, you have no sense of the power or danger of mounted troops/police, which is perhaps fair enough – most students doing medieval history have no idea how terrifying a horse charging towards you is.

So what we have here was not a charge – a canter is two stages below a flat-out gallop remember – but rather horses being used to push back protestors, some of whom at least were violent (there is a pole thrown at the police at one point and some scuffles clearly visible – and the police were presumably not picking random fights with a helicopter overhead). We can debate whether this is safe or right, but to claim this was a charge is either ignorance of what a charge truly is or is deliberate hyporbole. Either way, it is difficult to address the issues when a recognised policing technique is instead described as an effective and dangerous(in the right place – a charge against waiting massed ranks hardly ever worked) but emotive maneouver.

Dmob,

Good. I hope they got fucked.

Horses, policeman or students. Or perhaps you have some wierd uniform/bestiality fetish going on there.

Sad.

lol@watchman

nice point about LOTR there

“Or perhaps you have some wierd uniform/bestiality fetish going on there.”

I thought I was the only one! Dmob I’ve spent my life searching for someone I could call brother.

As somebody who was there, I’d like to point out that

a) The horse charge did not calm the situation down, it made it significantly more volatile

b) The horse charge was completely unecessary at that point, and as you can clearly see from the video achieved nothing because protestors had nowhere to go

c) Yes, there *were* prepared troublemakers who had brought weapons to fight the police with – but they were very few in number; the violent actions of the police (battoning people on the floor, punching and kicking anybody within reach) inflamed the situation and turned everybody in the vacinity against them and made it a riot situation

d) A girl from Cambridge did go under a horse and end up with a broken collar bone; she was one of the group I went down with thuogh I didn’t see it happen I know from personal reports that she was in hospital after the horses charged. (I also saw a lad unable to stand with blood pouring from his head after he was battoned from behind)

Paul,

Fair enough – so from your point of view (not presumably that of the officer in charge though) the use of horses was unnecessary.

And the key question is what came first – actions by the idiots you mention in c) or the police brutality? Did anyone try to restrain the c) idiots or were they allowed to get into contact with the police, because that is where the problems start.

@ Paul

Watching on TV, sending in the horses was one of the few mistakes the police made all day.

At that point things were calming down and it looked as if they were just desperate to carry out a drill from the training ground in real life just to see how it worked.

Did the students that attacked the Royal car think there was a Riot horse in the back seat. ….. Camilla needs to stop doing those Horse Impressions. Well worth a look http://www.themondaysupplement.co.uk/headline/horsing-around-camilla-in-student-riot-mix-up/

Of course, if a decision is made to bring the Mounted Police along at the start as part of measures to control the expected demonstrations, it’s apt to make Police commanders look a bit daft if the Mounted Police are not deployed at all in the course of events. And, naturally, Mounted Police probably looked forward to a piece of action with an opportunity to exercise their highly trained horses.

Compare what happened to Mark Saunders in 2008:

“Mark Saunders was shot dead at his home in Markham Square, South-West London, on May 6, 2008, after a five-hour stand-off with the police. He was hopelessly drunk when he was hit in the head and chest by five ­of the bullets fired by seven policemen ­stationed in nearby houses. . .

“Yesterday, the inquest was told that police were carrying more than 100 guns, including high-velocity rifles, 9mm Glock self-loading pistols and MP5 carbines, as well as Tasers and CS gas. A total of 59 armed officers were posted around the house.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1316398/Mark-Saunders-armed-drunk-deranged-But-wasnt-7-officer-shooting-overkill.html

RE Watchman’s point – I think we can safely say that if you get a proper charge into a crowd you’ll see fatalities, and oddly enough the police have enough on their plate to deal with without actually killing people. So I don’t actually expect them to do a full charge, ever, and if they do, someone’s going to have to answer for it.

22. Chaise Guevara

@ 9 Tyler

“So what are you saying? It’s OK to break the law and injure police officers because *shock horror* they are accountable??”

How could you even get that from what I said? Are you just trolling?

“Police horses charging into a crowd to disperse them so that the police lines can reform”.

This looks like a complete non-sequitur to me. The police lines had to break to allow the horses through. If the crowd had been a bit better-organised they could have kept that break open after the main surge of horses.

The whole thing is rather surreal. Maybe it says something about the changes in society but in the 1980s we had the miners cavalry charged and now we have schoolkids. With the Treasury, Supreme Court and heir to the throne under siege from the baying proletariat to add a little extra surrealism.

“The whole thing is rather surreal. Maybe it says something about the changes in society but in the 1980s we had the miners cavalry charged and now we have schoolkids.”

With the attack by student demonstrators on the RR carrying the POW and Duchess of Cornwall in these times of restoring traditional values, perhaps protection next time will come from the Household Cavalry with sabres drawn, which was their original purpose.

And all Call me Dave is concerned about is The Royals car.

Dear Call me Dave,

Fuck You!

‘As a rule, horses are big, sweaty, noisy, snorting things, they start at loud noises and roll their eyes, and their movements look sudden and powerful to us smaller creatures, and a herd of them moving is a real spectacle – because that’s how they are, not because they’re about to eat you’

Same could be said of the police.

I just with protesters would remember what they are protesting about, who is in a position to do something about it, and focus on that rather than being distracted by Policemen however big and burly they are. If you are on a demonstration which has an unruly element the main thing you are achieving is becoming a police training operation.

Yesterday I saw bravery beyond description – we were armed with wooden sticks,cardboard, paint, and a few concrete blocks that had to be labouriously broken up, and no body protection, they had-
Full bulletproof armour
Bulletproof helmets with visors
Bulletproof shields
Batons
Horses (which they did not seem to be fully in control of)
Dozens of vans
Plus we knew they had rubber pellets and water cannon in reserve
You don’t take on that kind of arsenal unless you are really angry- when your entire generation have been BETRAYED. This ConDemed dictatorship has shown its priorities- the bankers who are responsible for the crisis go unpunished, millionares over 60 receive free bus passes, tv licence, heating allowances etc, and what scant money youths do get has been cut from them, because only people over 50 vote for the Tories and their brand of U.S worshiping capitalism.

What we radicals lacked yesterday was proper Leadership. We moved about on the spur of the moment, each following our own plan according to the rumour of the moment. It was the first time some of us had been to London, it’s a scary enough place on a normal day, and many had long train rides there and back.
If a few strong minded individuals had been there to organise us we would have actually got into the Parliament building. I must read Brearley’s The Art of Captaincy to train myself to lead this fight for our proverbial Ashes. Next time we will have redundant workers and unemployed with us to protest against VAT, we’ll be armed, organised and 10 times more angry.

@29: “It was the first time some of us had been to London, it’s a scary enough place on a normal day, and many had long train rides there and back.”

Try this BBC Newsnight report: London is different:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7368326.stm

the police “charge” and infact all of the actions of the police that day are more than commendable. the whole protest would have been fine is there wernd radical scum who went there looking for a fight. police do not use violence if unprovoked and as all of the video footage of the day shows they were more than outnumbered by people looking for violance. in terms of the mounted police they were required to push back the crowd as the defensive line of the police was about to break. if that had occured the police would have become seperated within a mob crowd ….. noone know what would have happend then but vith the occuring violence the best guess would be that alot of those ofiicers would have ended up in hospital . so the mounted police were required to provide relief to a strectched police force. i fully agree with the protests as i myself am off to university soon . however those people causing the violence certainly do not deserve a place in university , something i believe is a privilege to be earnt ( through academic grades and other abilities not purley money) but also that these people need to be locked up . and if there had been no violence on these past few days i belive that the vote would have gone the other way

“we’ll be armed, organised and 10 times more angry”

Well I can’t wait to see how that works out for you.

@31: “police do not use violence if unprovoked”

C’mon – I suggest keeping to the facts would be a good idea.

“Officer cleared after killing a man carrying a table leg”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/13/ukguns.hughmuir

“Three Sussex officers avoid prosecution over fatal operation and subsequent cover-up which was damned by two separate inquiries

“In a small Sussex seaside town, at 20 past four in the morning, James Ashley was sleeping naked in his bed. Seconds later, he was on the floor, shot dead at a range of 18ins, by a police officer using a powerful Heckler & Koch carbine.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/secrets-lies-and-.htmlit-after-police-shoot-naked-man-in-bed-685719.html

“Four police officers were guilty of the ‘most serious neglect of duty’ over the death of ex-paratrooper Christopher Alder in 1998, a watchdog has ruled.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/4848238.stm

The trouble was there were about 400 or so anarchists from whitechapel in the crowd, once they started the rest joined in, but they used the wrong kind of violence and we lost our objective and went for maximum damage rather than cunning, they even went up oxford street for no reason, they just wanted a brawl but we needed a carefully planned assault. The action wasn’t organised well enough ,it should have all been concentrated on one place so they could occupy a building such as the treasury one, they might still be there now had they managed to do this which would have been much more effective. I reckon the police can’t wait for more of these demonstrations so they can ban all demonstrations, bring the army out and start shooting at us from tanks. If the government raised income tax by the amount they raised fees I suspect some of these people condemning ‘violence’ in the press would be rather less vocal. VAT goes up soon, that affects all people from all classes, I wonder what will happen then?

@pagar,

Another big mistake they made was kettling the entire square, because

a) this pissed a lot of people off, and eventually led to the attack on the Treasury

and

b) after the kettle came into effect it emerged that a gang of youths with hammers – and some say knives – were trying to rob people, and at one point attacked a journalist. Nobody could escape, and the police did nothing because the kettle was in effect. Luckily the youths got distracted throwing rocks at windows and nothing seriously bad ended up happening – though when there was confrontation over their attacking the journalist it all got pretty scary when the hammers came out and there was a stand-off (which luckily I was not involved in and saw happen from a reasonably safe distance).

Kettling is really fucking stupid; it makes people angry and it put people at serious risk.

Jaeren,

I admire your spirit, but not your understanding of the economics of the matter. How can people protesting rises in student fees join with people protesting rises in taxation?

@32 – I hadn’t even heard of the murder in the second link, disgusting.

@36 I am worried the anti ConDem cuts ‘movement’ will be undone by the tories using media techniques to divide them, as tax rises and fee rises are linked- the govt is protecting its allies the bankers, to do this it is raising taxes and cutting public services. The tories will say endlessly ‘hard working people’ should not pay for ‘uneccessary’ public services like libraries, but its a non existant conflict since small tax rises on banks and big buisness would pay to keep them open, and would have meant that fees could be raised by a smaller amount.

“but they used the wrong kind of violence”

The fools!

40. Chiase Guevara

@ 39

To be fair, the leaders of both sides got together in advance and agreed that weapons would be knives, clubs and cudgels. Using cobblestones was in breach of the Ancient Covenant.

‘Yesterday I saw bravery beyond description’

Nah, my grandad saw bravery beyond description.

‘What we radicals lacked yesterday was proper Leadership…If a few strong minded individuals had been there to organise us we would have actually got into the Parliament building.’

‘Proper Leadership’ (with a capital ‘L’ no less) and ‘strong minded individuals…to organise us’.

Scary as fuck: I think my grandad might have met you.

“but they used the wrong kind of violence”

Is that like the wrong kind of snow?

Paul Sagar; there’s no real evidence that they would’ve been less violent if not cordoned off – is there? – and letting them run around central London unrestrained could have resulted in absolute carnage.

Incidentally, is it still “kettling” if they’re letting people go in small groups? Because that’s what the police were claiming was going on, and I’ve not seen anybody so far say they were lying.

(I’m not sure what’s to get angry about if people are allowed to leave)

@38,

I don’t think the government need to work hard in the media – the photo of one guy ripping down a flag at the Cenotaph is worth more than anything a politician could think to say.

I really don’t think the tactic of violent demonstrations is going to achieve anything positive for your cause.

“I am worried the anti ConDem cuts ‘movement’ will be undone by the tories using media techniques to divide them”

What, you mean like going into govt with the Lie Dems who said they were against almost everything they are now voting for? The division is complete once the Lie Dems decided they were really a bunch of tory thugs.

45. DarkestAngel

Firstyly the police officer who came off his horse was not bottled, he lost control of his horse and fell off, then his horse trampled him. Thats a fact, not a rumour you found on twitter :)

Second, Alfie Meadows is in hospital as a result of being beaten by a police officer while asking to be let out of the kettle to go and meet his mum who was in another part of the protest. He just wanted to go home with his mum. He suffered a stroke due to bleeding on his brain and had to have an operation during the night. Thankfully he is now recovering and is able to speak. That, again is a fact! Strangely the Prime Minister does not see fit to offer his condolences to Alfie’s family, he is still prattling on about a cracked window and a small amount of paint on a royal car. Does that not tell everyone something? He doesn’t care about the rest of us, he only cares about his own kind.

Third, the reason some protesters saw fit to carry weapons or create their own weapons is because they are scared and have no faith in the police. They have been hurt before while being totally peaceful. It has never been a crime to defend yourself.

To anyone who is still in doubt about the police provoking violence, I suggest that you do some research on the beanfield protests in the 1980′s where women holding babies were beaten by police. Go on youtube and you will dicover an ITN report where a young woman has her skull fractured by some police officers. Those protesters weren’t violent, at all. They were into all that peace and love stuff.

Also, do some research on the Poll Tax Riots in March 1990. Yesterdays events remind me of the police action on that day. I am old enough to remember what happened. The police kettled then, and at first when they started using force people were frightened and moved back. Then something clicked and they turned, fighting back. During the Poll Tax Riots there were very small children present, I’m talking pushchairs and prams, but the police ran through the streets randomly battering anyone they could catch. One man was awarded £30,000 in compensation for his treatment.

Before you condem, think. There are videos where small children are visibly seen. I saw one on TV today when the horses charged. A woman holding a toddler is moved out of the way by a police officer. The police may be there to stop trouble, that is no excuse for putting people in danger. Last week there were witness reports of a 6yr old being kettled. A 6yr old!!!! Think about it!! If the police are there to facilitate peaceful protest they should do just that. They should stop blocking agreed routes like they did yesterday and stop deliberately provoking people. Those people yesterday were very angry, and rightly so. Ask yourself what you would do in the same position?

@DarkestAngel It’s completely meaningless to say “that’s a fact” without evidence. Do you, for instance, have a videorecording of the police officer falling off his horse without being bottled? Were you shadowing Alfie Meadows for the entire time with a videocamera, so that you can prove he was beaten with no prior justification?
Note that I’m not saying you’re wrong about what happened, or trying to justify the action of the police, I’m just trying to point out that a lot of people make statements which contradict yours, so saying “that’s a fact” doesn’t really lend any particular credence.

In what way is this appalling? They are dispersing the crowd, nobody but the police horses were hurt thanks to some really disgusting behaviour from individuals in the crowd. If a crowd is misbehaving, and causing criminal damage, what would you like the police to do?? They clearly aren’t responding to verbal requests.

However, rippling flags from the country’s central war memorial certainly is appalling. A monument to the memory of hundreds of thousands of people who have given their lives, including those still dying in Afghanistan RIGHT NOW. All this in support of the freedoms the students enjoy, but without any sense of responsibility. This monument is not connected to the government or student fees, it makes my blood boil just to think about it.

@45 “Before you condem, think. There are videos where small children are visibly seen. I saw one on TV today when the horses charged. A woman holding a toddler is moved out of the way by a police officer. The police may be there to stop trouble, that is no excuse for putting people in danger. Last week there were witness reports of a 6yr old being kettled. A 6yr old!!!! Think about it!!”

I’m sorry but WTF is a 6 year old doing at a public protest ? The woman is either remarkably naive, or (worse) using her children as some peverse form of political gesture. I don’t know what’s wrong with this generation, shit happens at protests, things get thrown, people shout, swear, get arrested and sometimes get hurt, I wouldn’t take either of my kids (4 and 9) anywhere near one. If you can’t accept that then you shouldn’t go.

Jamie,

If someone had fallen and been trampled on by the charging police horses then they could have been seriously injured or even killed. That’s one reason why it’s appalling (don’t forget that Ian Tomlinson died after having been knocked to the ground, and that was just by a police officer). Why were they dispersing the crowd like that? Was there really anywhere for the crowd to go?

As Paul Sagar, who was there, said in post 16:

“b) The horse charge was completely unnecessary at that point, and as you can clearly see from the video achieved nothing because protestors had nowhere to go”

You say “nobody but the police horses were hurt” but how do you know? And besides, that misses the point of what could’ve have happened. Contrast what could’ve happened with the papers making a huge deal about some women getting poked with a stick.

As Paul also says:

“d) A girl from Cambridge did go under a horse and end up with a broken collar bone; she was one of the group I went down with thuogh I didn’t see it happen I know from personal reports that she was in hospital after the horses charged. (I also saw a lad unable to stand with blood pouring from his head after he was battoned from behind)”

It does rather seem as if you don’t know what you’re talking about, Jamie.

What “really disgusting behaviour” are you referring to? If you mean throwing sticks, when people have just had police horses charging at them what do you think’s going to happen?

“If a crowd is misbehaving, and causing criminal damage, what would you like the police to do??”

How about, you know, arrest the people breaking the law? There were enough police to do so.

One more point from Paul:
“c) Yes, there *were* prepared troublemakers who had brought weapons to fight the police with – but they were very few in number; the violent actions of the police (battoning people on the floor, punching and kicking anybody within reach) inflamed the situation and turned everybody in the vacinity against them and made it a riot situation”

It seems the police were misbehaving. And they too weren’t responding to verbal requests, like when peaceful protestors wanted to go home they were kettled for hours on end.

“However, rippling flags from the country’s central war memorial certainly is appalling.”

What, that’s worse than charging horses at people? Anyway, it was one person.

“A monument to the memory of hundreds of thousands of people who have given their lives,”

How do you know that people weren’t just doing things like that because they were being kettled?

“including those still dying in Afghanistan RIGHT NOW.”

And which party do you vote for? I hope it’s not a party that supports the Afghan war.

“All this in support of the freedoms the students enjoy, but without any sense of responsibility. This monument is not connected to the government or student fees, it makes my blood boil just to think about it.”

And how do you think being kettled makes people feel? Have you ever been held for hours on end, in the cold, with no food or water or toilets, having not done anything wrong? Perhaps if you experienced it your blood wouldn’t be boiling due to one person dangling from a flag.

Try this on the collective punishments of crowds by the Police:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9276000/9276699.stm

You’ve all been very clear about the tactics you don’t like, I’m still not really sure what it is you *do* want the police to do – what the police can realistically do faced with a large crowd that won’t obey instructions and contains violent people? What would you write in the policing manual if you were in charge?

(Well, that’s not quite true; I’m sure *some* of you would like them to get out the way so the protestors can cause mayhem all over London to show how angry they are, but if you take as an assumption that the police have a legitimate duty to keep order)

Do you really think it’s realistic to not restrict the movement of a crowd like that? It’s pretty clear there’s a huge risk of violence, and that the police wouldn’t be able to stop it.

Do you want them to let people from an angry crowd get in a position to grab them? I’m pretty sure I’d feel justified in striking out if I was a police officer in that situation, given how nasty it could get if I was pulled into a mob.

I’m not saying there aren’t instances of excessive force and counterproductive tactics. I’m sure there are. But they can only be judged when you have *both* sides of the story – what was it reasonable for the police to believe the alternative was if they didn’t take that action?

For starters, this seems excellent advice: Police must not be seen as arm of the state, warns top officer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/10/police-tuition-fees-protests-orde

We are getting away from the long-established British tradition of policing by consent.

Secondly, by several accounts of this and previous incidents, there seem to be rather too many Police officers looking for opportunities to hit or shoot people:

PC to face misconduct charge over G20 death
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6AS25620101129

And checkout the reference to Mark Saunders @20 above here.

47. jamie

‘”However, rippling flags from the country’s central war memorial certainly is appalling. A monument to the memory of hundreds of thousands of people who have given their lives, including those still dying in Afghanistan RIGHT NOW. All this in support of the freedoms the students enjoy, but without any sense of responsibility. This monument is not connected to the government or student fees, it makes my blood boil just to think about it. ”

The only thing the cenotaph stands as is nothing other than a monument to our rank hypocrisy as a nation. It is a lump of stone not a grave. If we as a nation had honoured our dead servicemen after WW1 we would have given their widows decent pensions and housing and provided for their children. We did not and that marks us out as hypocrites par excellence. The same hypocrites who would have been at the cenotaph every year yabbering about our glorious dead would gladly have starved throughout the 1920s and 1939s the ones who returned alive. There is nothing ‘glorious’ about being dead. How you treat the living is what marks you out as a nation and we have always treated ex-servicemen appallingly. Still we see coffins returning from Afghanistan. However, no cameras for the young boys who return alive but limbless. Moreover, we will treat them as badly as we treated their ancestors. Yet, the hypocrite descendants of hypocrites will turn up at the cenotaph every year yabbering about our glorious dead. So young kids swinging from the cenotaph is no worse than the shameful hypocrisy it is used for every year.

@ 44 “The division is complete once the Lie Dems decided they were really a bunch of tory thugs.”

But it was ever thus – it’s a deluded conceit of the soft left that there has ever been much common ground between the left and liberals, when logically liberals, (in the real sense of the word, rather than Blairite “neo-liberalism” ) sit to the right of the left-right axis. Liberalism sits far more comfortably with small state, low tax, minimal regulation than it does with big state, high tax, high regulation. Always has done and always will do.
The left try and conflate liberal with “progressive”, when they are polar opposites, progressive now means progress towards statism, something no liberal worthy of the name would ever vote for.

Those cops are sick thugs. They have indulged in the most sickening violence against young people and supported by the ConDem government. Stand up against these fascists. It’s the only way forward.

56. Chaise Guevara

Matt Munro

” I don’t know what’s wrong with this generation”

Yes. Because the actions of one person are representative of their entire peer group. Well done. Have a buscuit.

57. Chaise Guevara

@ 54 Matt Munro

Oh, and I see the only PROPER liberals are people you agree with. Really working hard to win the Small-Minded Jerk of the Year Award, aren’t you? Again.

@Matt Munro

You can be libertarian and left-wing (Ghandi), just as you can be authoritarian and right-wing (Thatcher), libertarian and right-wing (Friedman) or authoritarian and left-wing (Stalin).

See http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

@Richard W

“So young kids swinging from the cenotaph is no worse than the shameful hypocrisy it is used for every year.”

Ah, the “two wrongs make a right” argument. What utter nonsense.

“But it was ever thus – it’s a deluded conceit of the soft left that there has ever been much common ground between the left and liberals”

Silly Sally, I thought manifestos meant something. You know, when you say a number of things in an election, and then you stick to them. I did not realise that the Lib Dem manifesto was a pack of lies.

The coalition agreement is the biggest surrender document since that piece of paper Chamberlin bought back from Germany. He was appeasing brown shirts too.

Sally – I’m not an apologist for Nick Clegg, but manifestos are written presumably on the basis that the party will have absolute power, rather than coalition power. The coalition never had a manifesto.

Chaise – Back from the pub early again ? Yes you can obviously mix and match your ideologies. The point I was making is that there is a constant implicit assumption from many on the left (e.g this blog and the guardian) that left is by default also liberal. It is not.

That last part of my post was aimed at the scottish bloke, not chaise (who only has the pub bit)

“The coalition never had a manifesto.”

Then they should resign.

65. Chaise Guevara

@ 62 Matt Munro

I’m not even sure that “back from the pub early?” is a bona fide insult. Nowt wrong with the pub. Wish I was there, actually.

You’re right to say that ideologies can be mixed and matched. But that goes both ways: you can’t (rightly) point out the unwise assumptions made by some on the left, then act as if it’s somehow hypocritical to mix ethical liberalism with socialism. In other words, there’s a reason that we distinguish between ‘liberal’ and ‘libertarian’.

@Matt Munro

“I’m not an apologist for Nick Clegg, but manifestos are written presumably on the basis that the party will have absolute power, rather than coalition power.”

Um… your complete misrepresentation of the concept of political mandate makes you the very definition of an apologist for Nick Clegg.

@Matt Munro

By “the Scottish bloke” I presume you mean me? Why do you not address me by name?

“The point I was making is that there is a constant implicit assumption from many on the left (e.g this blog and the guardian) that left is by default also liberal. It is not.”

And I was pointing out that your *explicit* assumption that liberal is by default also right-wing:

“logically liberals, (in the real sense of the word, rather than Blairite “neo-liberalism”) sit to the right of the left-right axis.”

is also wrong.

Great work by the police. Having to put up with hours of abuse and missles being thrown they showed amazing restraint. I was there as a peacfull protester and saw so many violent outbursts by (I hate to say) fellow protesters. I was ashamed. Its a shame that people were injured on both sides, but the police did what they had to do only because they were pushed by some idiots who thought it was agreen light to get violent.


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Liberal Conspiracy

    Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  2. Deb

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  3. Broken OfBritain

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  4. Michael F

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  5. Mysteriously Unnamed

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  6. Michael Hanley

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  7. ISM_News

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  8. Linda Hughes

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  9. Oxfordshire Greens

    RT @_Jameslloyd: RT @libcon Watch:Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8 – totally un called 4 an …

  10. Paul Crowley

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  11. sianberry

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  12. Ellie Mae

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  13. Joe Chapman

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  14. Joe Chapman

    RT @_Jameslloyd: RT @libcon Watch:Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8 – totally un called 4 an …

  15. Vegan Panda

    RT @_Jameslloyd: RT @libcon Watch:Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8 – totally un called 4 an …

  16. mark flannery

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  17. Fr Paul Butler

    The Police Cavalry Charge in2 student protestors 2day. Brought back memories of the way the Miners wr brutally attacked http://bit.ly/fFbVun

  18. Mysteriously Unnamed

    The Police Cavalry Charge in2 student protestors 2day. Brought back memories of the way the Miners wr brutally attacked http://bit.ly/fFbVun

  19. Mat M

    The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  20. Deb

    RT @kilburnmat: The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  21. Demokratische Linke

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  22. The Le May

    RT @kilburnmat: The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  23. John Johnston

    Unrest. Ongoing student protests in the UK (video): http://bit.ly/fP53LI

  24. Cory Hazlehurst

    @CoxeyLoxey Exhibit A: http://bit.ly/hhs5ps Exhibit B: http://bit.ly/i28Vwm

  25. The Doctor

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  26. A.N.Other Twit

    RT @kilburnmat: The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  27. Simon Sayer

    RT @kilburnmat: The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  28. Stephen Gideon

    I guess police in the UK ride warhorses. RT @kilburnmat The moment and action that turned tension into violence http://tinyurl.com/2vkl6vs

  29. Liberal Conspiracy

    Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  30. Chris Patmore

    RT @libcon: Watch: Once again police horses charge into student protesters http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  31. Samira Shackle

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  32. Samira Shackle

    Really shocking video RT @libcon Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  33. Andy Bold

    Not proportionate. Unnecessary. Dangerous for all, students and police. http://bit.ly/faObzi

  34. steve...

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  35. sam

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal http://bit.ly/giSSW8 Care to read this @alittlebloke?

  36. Peter Pannier

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  37. itch

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  38. glenda fallow

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  39. Matt Frodsham

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  40. Phil Makepeace

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  41. ? S?M ?

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  42. Andy F*lterer

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  43. gwyn bailey

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  44. Iveta S?bri?a

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  45. Marta Owczarek

    RT @libcon: Once again, police horses charge into student protesters yesterday. Unreal – http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  46. Mags main

    A disgrace, Charles and Camilla's car window is all we hear about Watch: http://t.co/aUyFZJz via @libcon

  47. sunny hundal

    Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  48. Kieron Merrett

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  49. Shaunyboydotcom

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  50. Liz Hyder

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  51. Eimear O'Shea

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  52. Paul Bradshaw

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  53. Rooftop Jaxx

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  54. Michael Hubbard

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  55. Ira

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  56. mark wright

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  57. Finola Kerrigan

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  58. WestMonster

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  59. Ramon Pedrollo Bez

    Video of UK police on horses cowardly charging students again http://t.co/nsgA3eX

  60. a4e highpark1

    Watch: police on horses charge students again http://tiny.cc/tlawh

  61. a4e highpark1

    Watch: police on horses charge students again http://tiny.cc/tlawh

  62. Tom Jeeves

    RT @a4ehighpark1: Watch: police on horses charge students again http://tiny.cc/tlawh

  63. Tom Jeeves

    RT @a4ehighpark1: Watch: police on horses charge students again http://tiny.cc/tlawh

  64. Earth

    > @a4ehighpark1: Watch: police on horses charge students again http://tiny.cc/tlawh

  65. Helen Lambert

    Police horses charging a crowd to make room for police lines: "you'd have to go back 30 years to see images like this" http://bit.ly/hhs5ps

  66. Gods & Monsters

    Genuinely upsetting footage of cavalry charge. RT @helenic Police horses charging crowd to make room for police lines: http://bit.ly/hhs5ps

  67. Tippy RammaDamma

    RT @sunny_hundal: Will the Met apologise for charging on horses into students? They bloody well should http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  68. The Battle of Parliament Square « The Boiling Kettle

    [...] And then the mounted policemen charged at us. [...]

  69. Reflections on a Riot « Bad Conscience

    [...] I was stood in the crowd next to Westminster Abbey on Thursday, when I saw riot police striking people with batons after they had fallen to the floor. When a young man trying to help others get away from danger took a baton to the back of the head, and came out streaming blood and unable to walk. When people around me started panicking, running, crushing and screaming in terror – and I turned around to see 15 police horses charging a packed crowd with nowhere to go. [...]

  70. Derek

    RT @libcon: Watch: police on horses charge students again http://bit.ly/giSSW8

  71. ‘Scenes of police officers being dragged off police horses and beaten’ « Keithpp's Blog

    [...] Police on horses charge students [...]

  72. Gender and Protest « Bad Conscience

    [...] the police gave up, and the horses retreated (temporarily) to Millbank. Whatever you think of the student protests as a political endeavour, it takes guts to [...]

  73. Kilburn Prat

    Can't have those police being politicised can we? http://t.co/ZrtEvtc2 #bbcqt





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