Good. Do it. Wasn’t there a court victory recently where some paper was found to be prejudiced against Poles, not because of a specific article but because of the overall tendency to exaggarate and prioritise stories about Polish criminals, cowboys etc?

Or was that just a fevered and happy dream I had once?

This is good news. Kudos to HNH taking on a tabloid. But as you say “[...] the Daily Mail or Express or no better in many cases” – and I’d add in some cases actually worse than the Star. The Star is in the most part treated as a joke paper, the Hate Mail and Sexpress are actually taken seriously by certain members of the public.

I love the picture going with this story. EDL supporters wearing burqas. Well, not actually burqas, but still…

Any comment on this, where *children* are actually being *taught* to hate??

“Children in Islamic schools are being taught antisemitic and homophobic views from textbooks, the BBC’s Panorama will claim tonight.

A textbook used in some weekend schools reportedly asks children to list the “reprehensible” qualities of Jews, according to the programme.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/22/bbc-panorama-islamic-schools-antisemitism

Perhaps the sensible thing to do would be seperate two issues.

There is the issue of idiot teaching children things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And there is the issue of other idiots portraying this in an us and them way which reinforces the tendency of the first bunch of idiots to portray their ‘community’ as something seperate from Britain as a whole.

The second bunch of idiots are the focus of the original post. The first bunch are the focus of Panorama (and some newspaper stories). They are all idiots…

“Perhaps the sensible thing to do would be seperate two issues.”

Yes, stupidity in one group does not excuse stupidity in another. Inciting hatred of other groups is and should remain a criminal offence, and prosecutions should take place of those institutions doing it – whether that is saturday faith schools or tabloids.

Actually, to be fair, if investigating the faith schools (which the authorities should do) the most likely charge would be some form of assualt on children, from what I’ve heard (talking to children – generally a good source of information about what they undergo). I suspect this is much more widespread and damaging (in all religions before someone accuses me of any sort of bigotry) than the teaching of forged texts (well, depending on your view of the authenticity of religious texts it is…).

The Daily Star is particularly nasty: this is the paper that often talks of “Ethnics”, which is straight out of the BNP phrasebook.

And yes, the Express is as bad, witness the “Muslim plot to kill Pope” story.

Both papers are owned by Richard “I never interfere in the editorial policy of my papers, honest” Desmond.

As Private Eye might have asked, I wonder if the two are somehow connected? I think we should be told.

We wouldn’t really expect any political sensitiviy from the tabloids, would we?
In my home country, it’s now even government ministers who incite racism: http://andreasmoser.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/german-minister-incites-racism/ . That’s really bad

@4

“Any comment on this, where *children* are actually being *taught* to hate??”

Appalling, obviously. Difficult to know what to do about it though, as they’re weekend schools and therefore presumably extracurricular. Presumably if they were shut down they’d learn the same ignorant shit in the comfort of their own homes.

10

Although I accept that it might be difficult to “prove”, wouldn’t any person or organisation that was preaching racial hatred, or calling for people to be killed etc be covered by existing legislation? Whether it was islamist extremists in weekend schools, white supremacists in a wilderness redoubt, or any other group of wing nuts?

Cor, defending our Christianity from the evils of Islam, as demonstrated in the Koran. Of course, there’s no such nastiness in the Bible, is there?

I signed Nick Knowles’ letter. Let’s hope it’s the start of a wider reaction against the tabloids. All we need now is a bit more of the Coulson affair to come to light.

Although I accept that it might be difficult to “prove”, wouldn’t any person or organisation that was preaching racial hatred, or calling for people to be killed etc be covered by existing legislation? Whether it was islamist extremists in weekend schools, white supremacists in a wilderness redoubt, or any other group of wing nuts?

That legislation is a good deal more tight in its definition of “inciting racial or religious hatred” than is commonly supposed. Rightly so, in my opinion…

“An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the written material is displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and are not heard or seen except by other persons in that or another dwelling.”

Also…

“Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.”

13

Thanks for the clarification; but from that, it would then still apply if activities covered by the definition in the Act were being carried out in a buildng which wasn’t their dwelling place, i.e. a meeting hall, or place hired to hold a meeting?

The kind of thing I had in mind was more along the lines of calling for people to be killed or maimed, not “criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents”.

@4

Yes, it’s absolutely disgusting and has no place in society. Prime example of why faith/religious/sponsered schooling is a bad idea. If you want to brainwash your children please do it in the privacy of your own home, not in an educational context.

@ 14

If you could prove that someone had been “calling for people to be killed or maimed”, then presumably that would be actionable. However, I don’t think there’s much you can do about an extracurricular school teaching Jews Are Bastards 101 to kids in terms of legal sanctions. You can, of course, engage with those responsible either through conversation or picketing,

15

Agreed- though given the fact that even Labour seem so enamoured with faith schools, I doubt there is much chance of Ed Miliband’s “new look” at policies promising to stop any state funding of such institutions (more’s the pity!).

@14

The kind of thing I had in mind was more along the lines of calling for people to be killed or maimed

The difficulty there is ascertaining how serious they are. Sure, we now have a legal environment where an obvious joke about blowing up an airport can get you imprisoned, but I was hoping that you’d be in the majority of people who think that’s wrong. AFAIK (and IANAL), it only legally counts as “threatening” if someone hearing it would reasonably conclude that they were in imminent physical danger. Sure, some idiots may occasionally stray across that line, but it’s not exactly hard to dance around it. One prosecution is all it would take to have them all holding these classes in their own homes and being sufficiently cagey to avoid prosecution, without materially affecting the substance of their message.

The simple, inescapable fact is that is very, very difficult to balance the competing rights in these sorts of cases. There is no perfect solution. And of course, it’s not as if anti-semitism and homophobia aren’t well represented in certain other religions with more political clout. (Which I shall refrain from naming so as to hopefully avoid the wrath of you-know-who…)

18

I agree with you that it isn’t easy: I suppose I come to it as someone with a very jaundiced view of religion of any stripe.

With respect to the question of where you draw the line about people being arrested for making off-colour jokes, I accept that it is possible to be over zealous. However what happens in the case of some religious or racist wing nut calling for apostates to have their heads cut off, or homosexuals to be hanged, or people who fraternise with the “other” race to be hacked to death etc. etc., even if they aren’t necessarily posing a “clear and present danger” or an imminent physical threat?

As yu say, there are plenty (even on here) keen to jump to the defense of their chosen made up belief system and insist that they are (of course) discriminated against because we let the other religions off so lightly, lol!

What’s IANAL? I would look it up, but it’s one letter away from “anal” and this be a work computer.

@19: I too have a very jaundiced view of religion, but I also have a very jaundiced view of attempts to legislate civility. Like Thomas More, “I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!”

However what happens in the case of some religious or racist wing nut calling for apostates to have their heads cut off, or homosexuals to be hanged, or people who fraternise with the “other” race to be hacked to death etc. etc., even if they aren’t necessarily posing a “clear and present danger” or an imminent physical threat?

Well, there’s really not much you can do (legally, that is.) If they haven’t actually committed a crime, then they haven’t actually committed a crime, no matter how crazy you might think they are or how distasteful you might find their ideas. “Point and laugh” is probably your best option.

I have long since had to learn to accept that the world is full of people I think are crazy and who are promoting ideas I find distasteful in the extreme, but we can’t simply ban all religions and any political party to the right of the SGP.

@20: I Am Not A Lawyer. Standard internet disclaimer when discussing legal topics.

Ah, thanks. New one on me.

21

“Well, there’s really not much you can do (legally, that is.) If they haven’t actually committed a crime, then they haven’t actually committed a crime, no matter how crazy you might think they are or how distasteful you might find their ideas. “Point and laugh” is probably your best option.”

But wasn’t there a case when some (I think it was muslim fundamentalist)protesters with banners at a demo calling for people to be beheaded were prosecuted?

@ 23

“But wasn’t there a case when some (I think it was muslim fundamentalist)protesters with banners at a demo calling for people to be beheaded were prosecuted?”

If it was expressed as an imperative then it would be an incitement to violence and thus illegal.

Rather than trying to tame the tabloid and internet beasts of Islamophobia, might it not be easier to tackle things from the other end? Why on earth should what the Daily Star says, or an EDL march, increase the likelyhood of muslims falling in with extremist views?
If you bring people up and teach them properly, that shouldn’t be a problem.

You have to be a bit of an idiot to take the EDL too seriously. Or the BNP.
There was a thread on here the other day titled ”A white Briton writes” which said that in 50 years or so when white people are a minority in Britain, that everything would probably be hunky dory as far as integration and harmony went, so let’s just start right now and ignore the Daily Star and the EDL et all.
They have no power if you don’t afford them any.

The Daily Star? Journalism? Really?

“And of course, it’s not as if anti-semitism and homophobia aren’t well represented in certain other religions with more political clout.”

Though not formally taught to children in textbooks AFAIK.

I salute HNH for their letter.
Like others have remarked, however, the Sun, the Mail and the Express are actually even more poisonous and enjoy better circulation than the Titty Star.
I’ve lost count of the number of made-up anti-Muslim and xenophobic stories that those rags had to retract.

“Why on earth should what the Daily Star says, or an EDL march, increase the likelyhood of muslims falling in with extremist views?”

I don’t know, why don’t you ask MI5 – who specifically said that EDL marches increase the likelyhood of muslims joining extremist groups? I’m sure they’ll be delighted with your constant concern trolling.

Is that what it’s called Planeshift? Or is that your way of attacking people who might take a different view from yourself on issues? I know that is a common left tactic for dealing with anything outside their particular orbit. Even suggesting that the repayment plans for higher student fees doesn’t seem so harsh is probably ”trolling” on a site that seems determined to say that it is harsh.

The fact that an EDL march might radicalise and alienate some young muslims is not any justification or excuse for them. As, just because there are meathead idiot EDL people shouting ”no more mosques” does not have to create any reaction at all.
If it does, then there is a problem with those people who might become radicalised.
If this is what you call trolling – then I think you have a problem too.

The riots in Bradford in 2001 occurred just on the rumor that some BNP people were going to gather in the city centre. That was obviously not a good enough reason for what followed. If you gave your opinion Planeshift, we might be able to pass judgement on it.
Mine, is that a mature person does not rise to baiting from idiot fascists and Daily Star nonsense. And that if people are – then that is an area to work on.
As it is within the area where progressive people might be able to do some good. Taming the reactionary press and the internet is not feasible.
If that’s trolling, then why bother even talking to anyone but people exactly the same as one’s self?

Damon, concern trolling is a perfectly valid description of your entire comments contribution over the years. As is your subsequent straw man point. Do you think when MI5 explained that EDL marches led to an increase in membership of islamic extremism they were justifying it? or do you think it was merely an explanation?

“Mine, is that a mature person does not rise to baiting from idiot fascists and Daily Star nonsense.”

Islamic extremists are generally not mature people. Neither are the EDL for that matter.

“Taming the reactionary press and the internet is not feasible.”

On matters of national security there is a long history of very succesful formal and informal measures of taming the press that have been feasible and effective.. We currently have the official secrets act, D-notices etc. Plus numerous PR officers employed by government, and a range of informal measures of media manipulation such as lunches with editors. It’s perfectly possible, and a matter of political will. In the case of the Star – a politically insignificant rag – its probably a matter of government saying to desmond ‘cool it’. Daily Mail is a more difficult one, but at the end of the day editors want knighthoods, journalists want access to officials and police officers can be persuaded to raid offices for cocaine.

A general swipe Planeshift. It’s easy isn’t it? At least you made a cople of points about this thread in particular. If people are getting wound up to the point of turning to radical ideas because of an EDL march, then the answer isn’t to curtail the EDL or freedom of assembly. It’s to take the initiave against that radicalisation in the same way that you would do towards fascist and racist radicalisation. Sure, tell the Daily Star (rag) to cool it, but what then? Tell the BBC to stop showing programmes like that Panorama one last night (which no doubt the Mail etc have picked up on). And that Dispatches programme is constantly showing alarmist issues. ”Undercover Mosque” etc.

I see from a new thread on immigration, you prefer to keep things squeaky clean and simple. You said:

The real question is how the hell does an opposition address the “concerns” over immigration when these concerns bear little relationship with reality?

So maybe it’s just not me trolling, but some fundamental difference of looking at things.
You appear to want to spin that issue and blame it all on the media …… amd completely rejecting any other view by saying what you say there.

A bigger problem than the EDL in my (trolling) opinion, is that the reaction to the EDL has been a bigger problem than the EDL itself. Who only turn up in a town for a few hours and are then gone for the rest of the year. And UAF and such groups are responsible for upping the ante and getting these immature youths agitated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDwNDKLpi8

What you seem to be admitting is that it would be almost impossible to talk to those muslim young men throwing stones at the police in Luton, so you yould rather turn your attention to the wind up EDL and Daily Star.

It’s easier to blame the media and people making ”strawman arguments” than it is to deal with the issues of self segregation and the thin skinned propensity to be easily offended.
In my opinion.

…… and police officers can be persuaded to raid offices for cocaine.

And look to making prosecutions against programmes like Dispatches.

Police had initially investiagted whether three of the individuals shown in the programme could be prosecuted for inciting terrorism or racial hatred.

But they later turned on Channel 4, saying the broadcaster had committed offences by showing the documentary – specifically in stirring up racial hatred.

However media watchdog Ofcom rejected the complaints in a decision published last year.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641316095

Maybe the Panorama programme on monday night was also Islamophobic.

Btw Planeshift – do you see what ukliberty said @ post 36 on the Labour and immigration thread? And was what you said @2 all you have to say on the matter?
What you did say was a bit of a platitude I thought. The IPPR report that was linked to in that thread shows much greater understanding that there are real issues in that area.