Been worth reading Laurie Penny’s twitter feed for stuff from inside the demo.

Not sure what happened there – try http://www.twitter.com/PennyRed

But aren’t there going to be loans?
I thought we will only have to pay back later if we cross a certain earnings threshold. That should not prevent anyone from studying, should it?

I find it fair to pay for my studies. The alternative is that the bus driver and the bin man pay for my MA in Philosophy with their taxes. Why should I request them to do so?

Good on the students and everyone who joined them in London today!

I haven’t seen any of the demo yet as for the last hour TV has only been covering the stuff at Millbank Towers.

Andreas Moser – get it done now before the courses aren’t available even for money. I don’t think you see the full picture about the cuts.

Andreas, sometimes we have to fund things that do not directly benefit us. I don’t complain about my taxes going to fund schools or Child Benefit. There is an indirect benefit to having more educated members of society.

Have you actually asked any bus drivers and bin men how they feel about their taxes funding the further education of others, or do you just assume they agree with you? How do you know some of those bus drivers and bin men haven’t studied degrees or are studying part-time?

Some clown on the roof threw a fire extinguisher down at the police. What did he/she think would happen if it had hit someone?

Memo to the NUS: Keep the SWP and other far left groups well away.

“The alternative is that the bus driver and the bin man pay for my MA in Philosophy with their taxes. Why should I request them to do so?”

Because the bin man and bus driver have children, and they want them to study at University too. You have correctly identified what these measures are aimed at: allowing the rich to study whatever they want, and everyone else will be forced to choose courses which suit business’ interests, because otherwise there’s no way they can pay back the huge fees studying will incur.

Good on the students at the demo, and good on them for linking this with the attacks on workers.

Strange thing is, I used to think it was fair for me to pay for my university fees through my own efforts. Until it occured to me that I’m still going to be paying more taxes if I earn more. But then why not apply that too all schooling? Simply wipe off all state support and just give everyone increasing debt to whichever gross corporation the government decides it will outsource its loans to. No social support, just individual debt. Isn’t that what we’d all like? An ever increasing amount of burden to any public service used?

I would much prefer, as a result of being a student, earning more money and paying more in taxes to allow for others the same opportunity as myself. An educated workforce benefits everyone. People scared to learn and develop themselves because of debt is *not* going to help this country. Do we really want to fall further behind the rest of the world due to this ridiculous, selfish, right wing posturing?

pah! at violence. There was just a few kids being silly. It’s hardly armageddon. The Tories, police and media are wusses.

10 – I doubt those who had to hospital would view it as kids being silly. Throwing a fire extinguisher off the roof wasn’t “silly”, it was extremely reckless. What could have been an effective demonstration was hijacked by the SWP/anarchist rent-a-mob. I don’t see who gains from this apart from the government.

Sunny Hundal:

“pah! at violence. There was just a few kids being silly. It’s hardly armageddon. The Tories, police and media are wusses.”

So this is the kind of ‘Activism’ you will be supporting on LibCon.

Sunny @ 10: Could you let us know where you live, please. Have you got any windows?

But at least it confirms the popular impression that students are spoilt brat piss artists, with a penchant for vandalism, in addition to a boundless sense of entitlement. Anybody would think these kids are being forced to go to university. They’re absolutely free not to.

So barry, the bin man and the bus driver want their kids to go to university do they? Why?

Richard were you on the roof? I hope so because if you weren’t then you don’t actually know who threw the fire extinguisher and you’re just throwing accusations around. It sounds quite a lot like something an 18 year old would do in a moment of bravado.

“It sounds quite a lot like something an 18 year old would do in a moment of bravado.”

Do you honestly think your average 18 year old is stupid enough to try dropping fire extinguishers on people, even in a “moment of bravado”? If that had hit someone on the head it could have proved fatal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42gIPthZTiw&feature=player_embedded

I don’t know who dropped the fire extinguisher and I didn’t mean to imply that it was one of the SWP lot (although I accept the way my post is constructed makes it seem that way) but whoever it was will be lucky to escape arrest.

@8 er, you do know that if you can’t afford to pay back then you won’t have tonpay back, don’t you?

But let’s not let the facts get in the way.

On the plus side it seems many of the students didn’t take too kindly to the cretins on the roof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAGNJMQD1rA&feature=share

“So barry, the bin man and the bus driver want their kids to go to university do they? Why?”

For the same reason everyone else wants their kids to go to University. What a stupid question.

Is there any particular reason why a bus driver or binman shouldn’t want their kids to have a better, more fulfilling life and career than themselves?

“What could have been an effective demonstration was hijacked by the SWP/anarchist rent-a-mob. I don’t see who gains from this apart from the government.”

My colleagues at work, soon to be targeted for cuts, they would never have heard about this demo if not for the building invasion. What definition of “effective” are you using?

@16

“@8 er, you do know that if you can’t afford to pay back then you won’t have tonpay back, don’t you?”

This is EXACTLY the point – no one is going to study English literature, or History, or philosophy, except the filthy rich, because unless they go into banking, or some other high-paying industry they’re going to be paying back their £27,000 of debt for many, many years to come. (After the debt crisis we’ve just been in, is this sort of thing what you really want – do we not learn?)

Instead the only thing worth studying will be vocational courses, in other words training for business.

@13

“So barry, the bin man and the bus driver want their kids to go to university do they? Why?”

Eh?

So-called ‘Battle of Millbank Tower’. A bunch of non-student anarchists and SWPers attempting to highjack a peaceful protest – injuring bystanders and our cause in the process.

“What definition of “effective” are you using?”

Winning public sympathy and support.

On another note, I was at the protest specifically as a lib dem opposing fees and the amount of venom my comrades and I received from groups such as the SWP and Labour supporters was disgraceful. We were on the same side so I’d love to know how they justified it to themselves. Sadly, it’s no more than I’ve come to expect from Labour since the country rejected them.

The important thing is that this was an excellent demo with a massive turn out. 50 000! LibDem MPs in university towns will be shiting themselves tonight.

On the issue of violence: why should people making political protests have to put up with a small number of violent idiots ?

Sunny you are right that it was just a small number of people, but they were not all students. Looking at the pictures (I wasn’t there) there are a few in identical grey hoodies. The person on the Guardian home page to be dressed perfectly for a riot. Student fashion or pain stupid type anarchists?

NUS person on channel 4 while I’m writing this- he had to start by fending off questions about the violence. The more violence there is the less chance of a meaningful movement against the cuts. If that fire extinguisher had killed someone, what then? Are the police responsible for government policy?

What we need is a demo culture that is Loud and Proud..

People who are proud to express their political views do not cover their faces. Those who seek confrontation with the police should form their own demos.

Strange thing is, I used to think it was fair for me to pay for my university fees through my own efforts.

9. But then you thought about it and decided was fair for OTHER people to be forced to pay for your university fees.

““What definition of “effective” are you using?”
Winning public sympathy and support.”

They went after Tory HQ, in a building synonymous with political manipulation, lies and bullshit since the Dawn of the New Labour Era.

Take a straw poll wherever you are, but it plays well enough here.

The violence at the demo was totally counter-productive. Public support will now have drained away completely.

Sunny Hundal: The violence was silly.

“Do you honestly think your average 18 year old is stupid enough to try dropping fire extinguishers on people, even in a “moment of bravado”?”

When I was 18 I had friends who drove round Herts at night with their car lights off. I once sat in a car and my friend overtook two cars round a corner on a busy A road. The answer to your question is yes.

30 – When I was 18 the worst my friends did was drink or smoke the occasional joint. They certainly never did anything to endanger anybody’s life. If any of them were known to be driving around with their lights off they would have been bollocked in the college canteen.

Anyway we’ve now found out that the real reason the fees have to go up is not to overcharge all those foreign students who want to come here. At least according to some bloke called Cameron.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11724431

After all we can have the sheiks, oligarchs and party officials paying too much for their kiddies, can we? Maybe we can get the SWP to attack the Chinese Embassy next time.

“So barry, the bin man and the bus driver want their kids to go to university do they? Why?”

For the same reason everyone else wants their kids to go to University. What a stupid question.

Is there any particular reason why a bus driver or binman shouldn’t want their kids to have a better, more fulfilling life and career than themselves?

_______________

So we don’t want people to drive buses or empty bins, do we. We despise such people, don’t we, because we are socialists. I’ve heard it all now – socialists who don’t think people shouldn’t have to do useful, noble manual work. Socialism has been turned on its head. But, who, then is supposed to drive the buses and empty the bins?

So barry, the bin man and the bus driver want their kids to go to university do they? Why?

Because there’s an effective consensus – unmerited, in my opinion – that some careers – read: just about any that aren’t in retail or manual labour – necessitate degrees. And, no, I suspect they don’t want their children to have no options but to clear bins/drive buses. How would you feel if you were obliged to take on such careers? (Again, in my opinion, office jobs and managerial positions are just as tedious, menial and stifling but – hey – at least for no good reason they’re better paid.)

…socialists who don’t think people shouldn’t have to do useful, noble manual work…

Libertarians/Conservatives against choice!

(On the other hand, I don’t think one needs University to be curious, knowledgeable and *groan* skilled. Three years of, say, eight hours a week in an environment that can alternate between luridly utopian and dispiritingly managerialised might not, in fact, be all that ennobling.)

Mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, thrilled to see vast angry protest. And as for the ( very minor) violence, well, as per usual, if the aim is to get on the front page news, it works. But on the other hand, I wish it had happened on another protest first. Of all the groups getting kicked and spat on by this government – the unemployed, poverty-stricken children, the disabled, the sick, nurses, firemen, low paid women in public sector jobs etc. etc. students are probably the group that the populace as a whole are least likely to sympathise with due to the fact that a fair few of them come from reasonably well-off families. People find students annoying, often with some justification. I do worry therefore at it being counterproductive. Hopefully though, people will see the bigger picture, and realise we’re on one side. Hopefully people will take heart, and we’ll see other, even bigger, even angrier displays from other groups.

This whole violence business is clouding the real issue of tuition fees and funding cuts. How it can be truly classed as violent is beyond me, most of the anger was directed at property not people. It’s pure mainstream media spin.

And by talking about violence and riots and such, on the terms of the mainstream media, we give in to their perceptions of protest and demonstration that deviates from the norm of nice orderly marches which are often ineffective.

Further, by pouring condemnation on those who had the courage to occupy and do something different, Porter and the NUS are claiming this issue for themselves and denying the right of indviduals to take independent actions. While I appreciate the NUS taking a lead it’s not the preserve of students. This issue affects anybody who would like themselves or future generations to be able to attend university. By all means distance the NUS from the occupations and resulting scuffles, but condemning them and making distinctions between students and anarchists/others, drives a divide among a common struggle.

(See my blogpost for this in more detail http://bit.ly/dqbpGI )

How it can be truly classed as violent is beyond me, most of the anger was directed at property not people.

If I was to stroll into the Ashmolean and take a sledgehammer to a few ancient exhibits what would it be other than violence?

power to the students!

would have gone if I werent ill

the fight against the Tory Scum has only just begun, the first stikes have taken place, the first big protest march has happened, im sure there is more to come!

General taxation is now the only way to pay for HE.

Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight illustrated the problem. He claimed that they intended to have a ‘real’discusion about the issue of tuition fees (with academics and students), but were forced (because all ‘everyone’ is talking about is the violence) to focus on that issue.

What a load of crap! He could easily have had his planned programme and devoted a moment or two to the ‘violence.’ The SU spokespeople could/should have said that it was his choice to change the format. Paxman can and does set the agenda. He chose to make this the major issue: he did not have to have it as his exclusive focus.

What was particularly offensive was his aggressive interrogation of the ULU woman: how old are you? are you really a student? how long and who pays for your sabbatical? I guess ‘mature’ students are illegitimate students in his mind and I imagine SUs are also illegitimate representatives of students.

I was very heartened to see that so many students and staff went on the demo. Academic leaders and most staff have been uttterly irresponsible in their acceptance of the terms of this debate. The chancellors and various spokespeople for the rag-tag coteries such as the self-selected Russell Hotel Group have failed to articulate arguments in defense of education and against a philistine, illogical,economically irrational, ill-founded and unjust set of policies. I finally read the Browne report and was not impressed.

@28 – “The violence at the demo was totally counter-productive. Public support will now have drained away completely.”

I disagree. I think it will polarise support – those on the side of the students will be more so; those against, less. Which isn’t necessarily helpful if you’re trying to win the argument by convincing those in the middle…

I was genuinely heartened to see the “violent” (guffaw; try Burma, Iran, Thailand, etc.) protest screened on News 24. At least some people aren’t fucking apathetic about everything.

@39 – “If I was to stroll into the Ashmolean and take a sledgehammer to a few ancient exhibits what would it be other than violence?”

Well, absolutely – isn’t that what the Soviets tried to do? If you’re abolishing history, where better to start than “ancient exhibits” just lying around?

I can’t put it any better than Nina Power in The Guardian today:

“This protest – in both its peaceful and more violent dimensions – is a sign of a country unafraid to fight back, for the first time in a long time.”

Quite. I support both the peaceful and violent dimensions of the demo, the assault on Millbank Tower undoubtedly got the demonstration a lot more media coverage than it otherwise would have.

In any case in historical terms it was like a tea party. For example, I was at “The Battle of Lewisham” in August 1977 were anti-fascist demonstators fought the National Front and the police protecting them. It was the first time specialist riot police had been used in the UK, over 200 people were arrested and up to 200 injured.

NUS president Aaron Porter can go fuck a duck with his condemnation, we’ll undoubtedly see his face in a few years greasing up the political pole. He’s in a long tradition of right-wing, oppportunistic NUS toads. Look at some past NUS presidents: Jack Straw, Sue Slipman, Charles Clarke, David Aaronovitch, Lorna Fitzsimons, Stephen Twigg and Phil Woolas.

It’s like a shit list Who’s Who.

I was in the first year of Labour instigated tution fees. All the students in the year above me paid no fees and a lot of them had grants as well.

Did we riot? No.

Do the socialist left now take offence? Yes.

Someone please tell me why it is ok for Labour to raise tution fees but not the coalition……or is it simply because they are Tories.

Frankly, most of the left are hypocrites, and power is their only goal.

“NUS president Aaron Porter can go fuck a duck with his condemnation, we’ll undoubtedly see his face in a few years greasing up the political pole. He’s in a long tradition of right-wing, oppportunistic NUS toads. Look at some past NUS presidents: Jack Straw, Sue Slipman, Charles Clarke, David Aaronovitch, Lorna Fitzsimons, Stephen Twigg and Phil Woolas.”

Right wing? Though I agree the little twat will probably be climbing some greasy shit festooned pole in the near future, I heavily doubt, especially given the alumni you’ve hoghlighted, it will be a Tory one.

Tyler, there are quite a lot of right wingers in the Labour party, which was quite effectively masquerading as a force for social justice right up to the Iraq War.

I know this makes your anti-socialist babbling difficult to sustain but I’m afraid that’s nobody’s problem but your own.

23

“On another note, I was at the protest specifically as a lib dem opposing fees and the amount of venom my comrades and I received from groups such as the SWP and Labour supporters was disgraceful.”

…and you expected what exactly? Approbation? As an individual LD you may well oppose specific elements of policy, but given the setting and the audience perhaps burning your membership card might have gone down better than an “LD’s Against (some of the) Cuts” placard?

The sight of lefties creaming themselves all over the Guardian CiF site and elsewhere is extraordinary.

Though as one of the few voices of sanity pithily put it – you’ve pissed on your own chips.

Good job, kids.

pah! at violence. There was just a few kids being silly. It’s hardly armageddon. The Tories, police and media are wusses.

Hmm.

Filmed by a television news helicopter, one man on the roof of the building threw a large fire extinguisher to the ground, deliberately swinging it towards a knot of uniformed officers who were unaware of the danger until the missile smashed into the ground 2ft away. Lumps of concrete followed, while protesters inside the atrium threw shards of glass at the crowd, injuring several students seriously.

A policewoman with a bloody wound to her head was led away from the side of the building by colleagues. A stick was thrown at her as she went

Gordon Maloney, a 20-year-old linguistics student from Aberdeen, was knocked unconscious after being hit on the head by a brick shortly after speaking to a Daily Telegraph reporter.

But on the other hand, a Tory councillor looked at some gay social networking sites, so it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other really.

As always, the political left’s myopia and complete abdication of political responsibility is brought to the fore.

1. Tuition fees were the brainchild of the last Labour administration.
2. No increases in tuition fees were promised in the 2001 Labour manifesto – it lied and duly increased them.
3. The Browne report was commissioned by the last Labour government.
4. “There’s no money left.”
5. Harriet Harman in PMQ’s yesterday was the epitomy of the political opportunist – Labour has no policy on university education.
6. The protest – that is the ugly wing of left wing politics. A groupthink of hard-left political sentiment that the left cannot control, will not sanction but will tacitly encourage with hotheaded words from the NUS chairman and campaigns such as ‘Demolition 2010′.
7. The condemnation of such violence from the left has been pathetic.

It is a miracle no-one was killed yesterday or seriously injured. If the Left wants to engage in protest, it can now expect no public sympathy if this is the style of making your point made. We are all making financial sacrifices because of the financial ineptitude of the last administration.

Voters made their point, a coalition was formed, that is the will of the people. If the Left cannot formulate policy, cannot articulate its argument without violence then expect electoral oblivion for its contempt of democracy.

@ Mike Thomas

Though I wholly agree with your points, you for get that the left is essentially totalitarian in their views. Ever tried having an argument with a lefty? It seems always to revert to some diatribe. Normally involving Thatcher eating babies. Disagreement with their point of view leads to no rational counter-argument, just name calling or downright bigotry.

The very essence and definition of the Fabian society is an elitist group commanding society for the greater good.

Now, I’m not naturally a conservative, but I have had enough of zealots like Sunny, Harperson, Brown et al telling me how I should live my life. I get the feeling I’m not the only one.

Fire extinguishers thrown from sixth floor of a building into a crowd of people; fires being lit inside buildings; doors and windows kicked in; police hit with sticks of woods connected to placards; bricks being thrown… but hey it’s all just a bit of silliness and anyone mildly concerned about it is just a wuss.

Spot on Dizzy, who wrote the above. Good to see the Left reverting to their time-honoured tactic when they don’t get their way – smash the place up.

Porter has to go – you only need to see the leaflets the NUS handing out, inciting the students to riot.

Mike Thomas – well said, though I would qualify it – the Labour Party has no policies on ANYTHING. Witness the fact that they are still unable to- prepared to – say how they would have implemented the cuts they proposed?

And as with his previous leader, where is Ed Miliband in all this? What has he got to say? He’s even worse than Brown on the disappearing when things get tricky stakes.

A great day for the left yesterday – another stake driven in their heart, by themselves. Infantile and prattling

@ Sunny

“pah! at violence. There was just a few kids being silly. It’s hardly armageddon. The Tories, police and media are wusses.”

So I suppose it’s ok by you then if us ordinary taxpayers go and fuck up Labour party HQ then? Or maybe a mosque somewhere? The one in regents park only has two coppers outside it.

Or is it OK because it’s the Tory party HQ?

For someone who presents a holier than thou peace preaching facade, you really are a disgusting little hypocrite.

But I suppose I knew that already.

50 – The cause of the Left is righteous. Conservative governments should not be allowed to introduce Conservative policies because they are just WRONG. Violence is justified to stop the Tories and promote the Left’s agenda.

Well, that’s the impression ones gets from reading the above.

Wonderful. Its marvellous to see people actually getting off their arses and doing something, hopefully next time they’ll burn Millbank to the ground, preferably during a firefighter’s strike. If power crazed rich politicians ever listened to peaceful protests there would be no need for violence but they never have and never will.

hopefully next time they’ll burn Millbank to the ground

Never thought I’d see open calls for murder and terrorism here, this really does take the prize for stupidity. As well as burning a building down being, y’know, wrong, do you grasp in your pea-sized brain that other people besides ‘evil Tories’ work in that building?

56 If you think that’s an actual call for murder and terrorism then your brain has been damaged by lack of oxygen caused by having your head wedged between your Tory masters’ buttocks.

So it was just rhetorical bollocks, was it?
Which you thought sounded good and hard?

Thought so.

“. The alternative is that the bus driver and the bin man pay for my MA in Philosophy with their taxes.”

The state doesn’t pay for MAs – you’ve had to pay for your own (unless you get a scholarship) for years. You can’t even get a student loan to pay for it, it’s commercially based career development loans or other forms of private finance that fund it.

No just an expression of contempt for Tory vermin and their toadies.

Sunny, I hope this makes you feel very proud.

As 52,000 students and lecturers marched past Parliament, a lone voice crackled through a loud hailer above their angry chants.

It urged them to make their way to 30 Millbank, “the headquarters of the Tory Party”, and within moments a peaceful protest had turned into a snarling, violent attack.

By the time darkness fell, 10 people were in hospital, three floors of 30 Millbank had been wrecked, and dozens of demonstrators were occupying the roof after breaking through police lines with ease.

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That nobody was killed was sheer luck; at the height of the riot a fire extinguisher was thrown at police officers from the roof of the building, missing them by no more than two feet.

After the mob finally began to disperse, Scotland Yard faced tough questions over why it left such a high-profile building on the demonstrators’ route undefended. Sir Paul Stephenson, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, described the police response as “an embarrassment”.

Meanwhile, the lengthy process of identifying the ringleaders by studying hours of television and CCTV footage had begun.

The first indication of trouble came in the pubs around Whitehall at 11.30am, as some of those downing pints at the start of the marchers’ route began murmuring about “direct action”.

Ninety minutes on, the biggest rally since the Coalition came to power had begun marching past Downing St, with students bused in from as far afield as Scotland and Cornwall angrily chanting: “No ifs, no buts, no education cuts.” Their intended destination was a rally opposite the Tate Britain gallery on the banks of the Thames, but at 1.30pm came the call to divert to the Millbank Tower complex. Within minutes, about 200 people had got into 30 Millbank, a low-rise building next to the landmark tower, after pushing past a handful of police officers on duty outside. By 1.35pm about 2,000 protesters had occupied the courtyard, setting fire to placards and an effigy of David Cameron.

On the third floor, 80 workers at Conservative Campaign HQ contemplated joining 300 people evacuated from a side exit when a smoke bomb triggered a fire alarm. Amateur video showed staff dialling 999, realising the offices were about to be overrun.

Uniformed policemen were little more than spectators as thugs with covered faces linked arms and kicked in 9ft-high windows in the atrium. They occupied the ground floor and systematically smashed every window by throwing chairs and electrical equipment from inside. Ceilings were torn down, slogans sprayed on the walls and leather sofas ripped up as some of the group danced on the main reception desk.

By 1.50pm the first police reinforcements had begun to arrive, but as students set off flares in the courtyard, the rioting was becoming more sinister. Under a hail of bottles, placards, eggs and beer cans, several policemen were injured, three needing hospital treatment. One officer stayed in the line after patching up a facial injury with gaffer tape.

Chanting “Tory scum, you’d better run”, dozens more protesters got into the lobby, and even after the arrival of further officers at 2.20pm, police were powerless to defend the building.

One officer said: “We can’t do anything to stop them without using tactics that would be too harsh. We could use tear gas but it wouldn’t make any difference. There are just too many of them.”

Fred Azis-Laranjo, a 19-year-old history student from University College London, said: “The police were clearly grossly under-prepared. There just weren’t enough of them to control the mob. I feel sorry for these officers because it’s not about them, it’s about the Tories. The violence has become gratuitous and people are just smashing everything for fun.”

At 2.50pm, there were still too few officers to prevent the mob ransacking offices on upper floors and occupying the roof. Aaron Porter, the National Union of Students’ leader, took to the airwaves to condemn the actions of “rogue protesters” who had brought “shame” on the demonstration, but his words fell on deaf ears.

Filmed by a television news helicopter, one man on the roof of the building threw a large fire extinguisher to the ground, deliberately swinging it towards a knot of uniformed officers who were unaware of the danger until the missile smashed into the ground 2ft away. Lumps of concrete followed, while protesters inside the atrium threw shards of glass at the crowd, injuring several students seriously. On the third floor, protesters sprayed a fire extinguisher into the lobby of the Tory Party’s offices, but failed to get inside. Baroness Warsi, the party chairman, was among those inside and told Downing Street what was going on. One party source said: “She was on the phone to police throughout and was able to keep the staff updated.”

Other offices were broken into. A 50-year-old businessman who works on the 7th floor said: “They didn’t seem to realise the whole building isn’t rented by the Conservative Party. They didn’t manage to get into the Tory offices but they broke into the second and fourth floors.

“I looked inside those offices and it was absolute carnage.

“When people realised they were in the building and on the roof they got very scared.”

One confessed anarchist, Ravacol, boasted: “About 200 of us got in and smashed it up. We broke up all the computers and sprayed graffiti. It looked like the apocalypse up there.”

A policewoman with a bloody wound to her head was led away from the side of the building by colleagues. A stick was thrown at her as she went.

Only at 4.35pm, three hours after the trouble began, did the police have enough officers to take control, but scuffles and acts of mindless violence were still breaking out around them.

Gordon Maloney, a 20-year-old linguistics student from Aberdeen, was knocked unconscious after being hit on the head by a brick shortly after speaking to a Daily Telegraph reporter. A female student in her twenties was taken to hospital with a head wound, on a spinal stretcher. She claimed she had been hit by a police officer with a steel baton. The battle of Millbank came to an end at about 6pm, when 40 protesters who had been on the roof were arrested.

As other students made their way home, many were unapologetic about the rioting.

Tanzil Choudhury, 22, a law student at Manchester University, brandished a cricket bat he stole from inside. He said: “If the Government knows we’re willing to take this kind of action, they will take us more seriously.”

The state doesn’t pay for MAs – you’ve had to pay for your own (unless you get a scholarship) for years.

That rather depends on which university you go to doesn’t it? For those of us who believe there are only two, the state has always paid for our MAs.

55. I see the armchair wing of the anarchists has arrived.

There were more fatalities at G20 than Millbank, so going on about people who might have been killed yesterday is simply pointless.

@62 your powers of mind reading astound me.

My point remains: If peaceful protest ever had any effect then there would be no need for violence

Smash the state eh comrades? Except that bit of it that should pay for my degree of course.

I think smashing the heads of lefties is the right way to achieve certain aims. Because I believe this, it is therefore justifiable. I rest my case.

So Schmidt you *are* in favour of violence then?

Make your little mind up, please!

Bunch of hypocrites. Most of graduates wouldn’t think twice about borrowing £30000 for a car, God forbid they invest in their future. It is not the welfare state which is killing Britain but rather the Welfare State of mind.

Slight typo there beth?

In what way Planeshift? I am the first to admit my spelling is awful but I don’t see the typo

I suspect you meant borrowing 3 grand for a car, not 30 grand.

No I meant 30K. Every interview with NUS members I have seen they have said the raises to fees will result in students leaving with a £30k debt. In our consumer driven world many people have run up debts far in excess of this buying gadgets clothes and cars. I respect everyone’s right to spend their money how they like however I cannot reconcile the attitude of these protesters that I should pay for their education when they will be able to earn a lot more than the average wage and fill their over priced homes with gadgets and truly tasteless sofas. As to the argument that it will discourage those form poorer backgrounds will be barred it is facile. No one will be required to pay back the loan until they are earning 21k and then at a vastly subsidised interest rate. Whilst society benefits from tertiary education it is not as great as the benefit of those receiving the education. I really resent paying for nonsense degrees like Chinese Medicine and Human Movement both real courses. It seems to me that according to these protesters that it is bad to come from a privileged background but perfectly ok to attain one from an education paid for by ordinary working class tax payers.

47

“…and you expected what exactly? Approbation? As an individual LD you may well oppose specific elements of policy, but given the setting and the audience perhaps burning your membership card might have gone down better than an “LD’s Against (some of the) Cuts” placard?”

Why the fuck should I burn my membership card? This is my party not, Nick Clegg’s and if I leave it just makes it easier for him to take it over. Unlike the other parties we have internal democracy and come 2015 we’ll chuck Clegg and the rest of the leadership out, hopefully remove him as a candidate to boot.

It’s the hypocrisy of it that’s so galling. Labour and all of the other people criticising us (us Lib Dems who are fighting on their own side) didn’t make a peep when the fees were introduced by Labour. Or when the fees were raised by Labour. Or when the Browne Report were commissioned by Labour. If those so-called lefties stuck by Labour through all of that (not to mention an illegal war which led to the deaths of a million people) then why the fuck shouldn’t I stick with my party? At least we acknowledge that what is going on is wrong and plan to do something about it. What did you do?

Oh dear beth, that takes you into the realms of fantasy. Do you really think fresh faced graduates will borrow 30k for a brand new car? (particually when the cost of a decent brand new car is half that anyway). I can understand graduates borrowing 3k for a reasonable 2nd hand car in order to commute, but…well the banks would laugh you out the door if you asked for 30k for a new car.

The rest of your point is reasonable, so why do you have to undermine it by implying graduates are willing to borrow 30k for a car, but not for a degree?

I’d also really be interested if you could point to data showing just how many people run up 30k debts on consumer junk? I suspect it is a fraction of 1%. 30k really is a lot of money, and not as trivial as you are making out.

“it’s the hypocrisy of it that’s so galling. Labour and all of the other people criticising us (us Lib Dems who are fighting on their own side) didn’t make a peep when the fees were introduced by Labour. Or when the fees were raised by Labour. Or when the Browne Report were commissioned by Labour”

Quite so – but then, hypocrisy defines the Left. Look at the fuss they didn’t make over the doubling of the tax rate for the poorest earners. No protest marches over that, either. It’s all because they can’t bear to be out of power, and are hence behaving like foot-stamping infantile idiots. That’s you as well, Sunny. You all need to grow up and get a life. Labour are done for, they have a “leader” who is even more invisible than that foul object Brown, and who seems to have nothing to say about anything. Add that to the Coalition dealing at last with the West Lothian question, and that’s Labour dead in England for ever. And good riddance.

I say this as one who voted Labour for 32 years, until Iraq. And then watched with horror what they then did to my country.

I know several fresh faced graduates less than five years out of university – not from so called privileged backgrounds who have done just that. I also know lots of people who regularly pay for holidays and luxury items on credit. If people have not been living beyond their means for the past decade and filling their over priced houses borrowed on over extended mortgages, we might not be in the blackest of black holes in years. And if we are talking about fantasy let me point out that if Labour had not encouraged consumer irresponsibly and then aped that behaviour in the govt finances with their fiction of no more boom and bust we would have been in a much better position to weather the global storm. Labour belittled tertiary education and the talent of academics by insisting that it was right for everyone rather than everyone who had the ability. It is the same as me saying I want 15mill for playing football despite the fact I have absolutely no ability at all. In this very consumer driven world we rate being thin and wearing shin pads far above academic achievement. Maybe if universities were reserved for those with an actual talent for academics from which ever background we could afford to pay for it. With all high school leavers told that only university has value it insults the skilled trades and non degree jobs. As to the statistics I can not produce the actual ones other to say that several years ago research claimed that average debt per household was between 30-40k. Yes a lot but we are now reaping the rewards of spend spend spend climate.

to anyone who supports the complete cutting of all state funding to universities, and to loading those who choose to do degrees with masses of debt:

are you also in favour of charging people in the same way to take a-levels? I mean, having a-levels is an even clearer sign of someone’s increased earning potential; they’re optional, like degrees.

So why not charge anyone who decides to take a-levels too?

“. As to the statistics I can not produce the actual ones other to say that several years ago research claimed that average debt per household was between 30-40k. ”

You don’t think that might have been including mortgages?

@73 Planeshift
Try reading the website of the charity CCCS, where their average IVA involves creditors writing off more than £30k of debts totalling more than £50k. Creditaction states that consumer debt is now £216billion excluding the £billions written off by lenders (£10.9bn in the last year alone) and the much larger amount converted into mortgages.
Beth might have done better to say £10k, but the number who run up debts that they cannot is frightening/horrifying. More than 2% of the entire population of Scotland (more than 3% of adults) have been declared insolvent in the last decade.

No the figure does not include mortgage. Before the banks went tits up and maybe partially because of this credit was readily and irresponsibly available. I work in the third sector with the economically inactive and those furthest from the labour market. It has become common practise to run up huge debts then declare yourself bankrupt. The Credit Union has facts and figures showing that repossession, not of houses but cars/goods etc. have sky rocketed. The culture of credit has of course ground to a halt but we are left with a generation who will be paying off this recklessness for a long time. Returning to my original argument I still think it is hypocritical to refuse to invest in your own future yet be happy to wack two weeks in the Majorca on plastic.

Thanks Beth and John, I appreciate those links. Can I ask then whether the clients you deal with are, generally speaking, the same type of people going to university? i.e. do you think it is it fair to say that those protesting are the same people who are indulging in credit card/borrowing lunacy that leaves them “economically inactive and those furthest from the labour market.”?

Before you dismiss the violence as the work of SWP rent-a-mob, consider this Facebook post from a friend of mine:

“Lots of people are saying the 150 were “opportunistic anarchists”. They weren’t. My mate from KCL who ended up in Tory HQ says she recognised at least ten faces from Kings. Strand Poly anarchists, tut tut tut.”

@ 80 Planeshift
I was referring you to a couple of charities to avoid any conflict of interest because I have occasional business contact with commercial firms who handle “Debt Solutions”.
I do not think my view of huge debts would match those of Beth but many of the clients of the firms to whom I talk are graduates – the management of one major firm is proud of its achievements in reducing the level of repayment (not original debt – just the amount that gets repaid after the creditors have taken a haircut, often a tonsure) to £19,000 (a smaller firm has been handling debts as small as £10k for years, but that is partly because the accountant who owns a majority of it was funding a lot of the operating expenses out of his own pocket until last year). The average debt (excluding mortgages) of their clients is over £40k – most of Beth’s clients could not obtain this amount of unsecured credit; a couple of years ago the CAB calculated the average time that someone who came to them with debt problems would need to repay them in full was 70 years.
The credit card lunacy is mostly for those in a reasonably well-paid job who want to enjoy the lifestyle of those in a very well paid job. That includes a disproportionate number of young women.
In the mid-90s the average number of insolvencies per year in England & Wales was 25k. In the last Quarter the number was 34k, a 435% increase. Beth is quite right to blame those who just grab without bothering to think about paying for it although I also condemn the banks (the Americans were worst but some UK ones as well) who encouraged them with “special offers” and “easy credit”.

Love the way one individual chucking a single fire extinguisher from a roof allows our rightwing luvvies to quick-dash for the moral high ground!

Given the lack of defence of the proposed policy it is clear the moral bankruptcy of the Right is complete.

Lunacy borrowing is not the sole preserve of the economically inactive. There are many many many professional people who are graduates who have over extended hugely – with the help of banks who allowed them a fantastical line of credit. In the new year there will be a rise in the amount of repossessions as the overstuffed public sector is pruned. A lot of those employed are graduates, who mistakenly thought that having a GDP of 75% public service was a good way to run a country. I would join a bailiff company it will be a growth industry. In Wales we are going to suffer very badly as we have an enormous public service who are very well paid in a very small country. Last year Israel managed 9 billion military procurement with 400 members of staff in Britain we needed 23000 people to manage 10 billion of military procurement. We have to start re-assessing our priorities. Do we want the latest apple offering or are we willing to invest in our future and that of our future families. It is a very British disease that thinks everything in this world should be free. As I said before it is not the welfare state that is destroying Britain it is the Welfare State of Mind.

Obviously BenM you would of been fine with it hitting a student and killing them? It’s funny how everyone is saying “Oh yes we must have cuts” until it’s them that has to face the cuts. As to moral bankruptcy I notice that Labour has yet to apologise to all of us they bankrupted by the chronic mismangement of the economy. Nor have the had the morality to apologise to all the pensioners who are now on the bread line because they raped the pension pot. Have they been ethical enough say sorry for selling gold at an all time low and buying Euros – pure genius. Never mind going to war on some very shaky moral grounds. It is amazing the amount of selective dementia that is evident in the Labour lovies. It was incredibly moral of Hysterical Harperson to push through an equality law which apparently doesn’t apply to gingers. I think anyone who starts talking about morals should take a long hard look at the Labour bully boys who were really running the party Derek Draper, Kevin Maguire, Tom Watson none of whom you would associate with morals unless they were the morals of an ally cat. We haven’t even got to the Dark Lord who wouldn’t know a moral if it jumped up and did a rumba with him.

@ 85 Beth
It was deliberately aimed at the police, so Ben M thinks that is OK.
Not sure how his moral compass copes with the student hit on the head with a brick – possibly talking to a Daily Telegraph reporter makes him a “legitimate target”?
On the other topic I quoted one couplet from Tennessee Ernie Ford’s “16 Tons” to the then Chairman of the leading Debt Resolution company and he immediately quoted back the rest of the verse – then told me that his wife was a volunteer for CAB. We need more people like you but the minority of ethical companies are a lot better than the alternatives (nothing and loan sharks sharing bottom place)