The elephant in the room is that hundreds of Labour politicians have literally got away with murder.

You don’t have to be ‘ideological’ to be angry that they continue to go unpunished.

Timms, of course, was among the Labour MPs who backed the US-led invasion in 2003. I’m sure he did so unthinkingly. Breaking the whip is not something that even occurs to diehard party loyalists on the lower rungs of the payroll vote.

I think that might be a bit unfair – it was by a distance the biggest political decision taken in that Parliament. Even though I had nothing riding on it whatsoever, I still agonised over whether it was the right thing to do. I’m pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of MPs would have given it a great deal of thought – even if that extended only to whether they felt strongly enough to rebel.

No need to beat yourself up over this Dave. It wasn’t “British society” that alienated this woman. It was Anwar Al-Awlaki. And if she hadn’t got Iraq to use as an excuse, she’d have found something else. The 9/11 lot had no trouble coming up with a compelling rationale for killing on a much greater scale.

“Why would an obviously intelligent young woman consciously mount an assassination attempt” – well I think the short answer is that she failed to channel her “alienation” into what is considered (by any sane person) as a socially acceptable form of protest?

There is a very good John Cleese sketch on the way extremists rationalise their dangerous approach to problem solving;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okW1z11HotM

Nice post Dave, but I worry you have picked up on the identity politics aspect without considering something else that feeds into this. I think PDF’s comment at 1 may suggest that there is something more than just alienation here. There is also the false justification of hearing people who were not Muslims screaming that this was a crime, that it was wrong, that it was murder.

If for whatever reason you feel alienated, the cries of the left (and parts of the right) about the ‘crime’ that was the Iraq War would perhaps provide as much fuel to the decision to attempt murder on your own part as would being a Muslim. This is not to say that there is not alienated Muslim youth in this country (perhaps because we keep referring to them as Muslim youth, and making them alien as a result…) but that this case has to be seen in terms of the wider dialogue within society. Ms Choudary may have absorbed much from her religious and cultural backgrounds, but what is known of her education and prospects suggests she was able to access ‘mainstream’ dialogue as well as purely ‘Muslim’ dialogues.

“And if she hadn’t got Iraq to use as an excuse, she’d have found something else.”

More wilful ignorance from a desperate labour apologist.

But don’t stop there, comrade.

Why not tell the one about how the attack on Iraq had nothing to do with 7/7 either?

Dave,

There is a big difference between the H-Block hunger strikers and Roshonara Choudhry: the hunger strikers were putting their own lives on the line, not trying to take someone else’s.

@PDF

It’s pretty obvious who the apologist is here.

Next up:

“How could that Combat 18 supporter have attacked that poor brown person. What have we as a society done to create such anger?”

Dave

You need to learn to disassociate your own political perspectives on the Iraq War and the supposedly radicalising nature of it, from what is going on within Muslim communities.

Awlaki was promoted for a decade by “mainstream” bodies as a moderate preacher. In fact, from what we know, he was involved in recruiting for jihad and fundraising for terrorist groups from the mid 1990s.

Imagine what would happen if Combat 18 took over an estate, and started to push their ideology. Pretty much the same thing.

I rather like the idea that people should be held responsible for their actions whether they are part of the state apparatus or not.

To be instrumental in murdering thousands of innocent people by waging war (an illegal war under international law if that makes any difference) deserves punishment and it is easy to argue that the MP is guilty of a greater crime than his constituent.

“(an illegal war under international law if that makes any difference)”

Now, depending upon your qualifications this opinion may be interesting or it may be worth f-all; in either case as no court has declared this an illegal war, it remains your opinion.

PDF @ 6

Why not tell the one about how the attack on Iraq had nothing to do with 7/7 either?

Mohammed Sidique Khan attended his first bomb making class at the Malakand training camp in 2001 – two years before the invasion of Iraq. So no, it wasn’t Iraq that radicalized or alienated him either.

[10] “it is easy to argue that the MP is guilty of a greater crime than his constituent”, so do you propose summary justice in the form of various acts of violence?

Whatever objections we have to this abominable war sticking a knife in your opponent is not the answer, no matter how “alientated” or “intelligent” you are?

I don’t think phrases like ‘Muslim alienation’ are helpful because they’re too reductive.

Sorry but I don’t buy the blaming Iraq excuse – she could have done it ages ago if she wanted to exact revenge over that… not once the damn war is over.

And the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims haven’t gone out on a rampage – so the implication they might do the same thanks to Iraq is patronising I think.

“If British society has alienated a layer of Muslim youth to that degree – and it appears to have done exactly that – there will be other Roshonara Choudhrys out there even now.”

Wow. Astute analysis. I suppose then the solution is to build an educational centre for disaffected muslim youth? How about sending her on a holiday to Disney land. Wouldn’t that be swell.

Let me ask you, would this apologetic analysis have been the case if, for example, the perpetrator had been a Roman Catholic lady who was angry about British actions in, say, Northern Ireland or Timbuktoo? What about if it had been a BNP supporter unhappy about a mosque being built on his street?

I can guess what you’d be saying were either of these scenarios the case.

You’d say we should put her in jail for a very, very long time and condemn all violence in the name of politics. What’s different here?

no court has declared this an illegal war

If you accept the legitimacy of the UN to sanction attack on one state by another (I don’t as it happens) the Iraq war was not sanctioned and was, in that sense, illegal under international law.

If you accept that the state has no legitimacy to murder the citizens of other states by invading them, bombing them or whatever (which I do) then Mr Timms, by voting to attack Iraq, was complicit in multiple murder, rape and may other crimes.

so do you propose summary justice in the form of various acts of violence?

No. That is what the MP voted for.

Also, Dave – how clued up are you about Awlaki’s theology and politics?

Awlaki wants to create a Taliban style Islamic state. His problem is that Saudi Arabia is not repressive enough. He is serious about this, and has written extensively about the nature of that state.

A lot of Marxists assume that the reams Islamist political theory ought to be regarded as a symptom of something else – a bourgeois response to imperialism, for example. Therefore, they fail to take it seriously.

An Awlaki follower is likely to have concluded that the problem with the world is kufr law, that can only be solved by the creation of a single Caliphate run according to Salafist principles. That state will restore balance by the correct application of Sharia. They will also have concluded that the kafir knows this, and is conspiring to prevent this perfect world from coming about.

That is really what they believe. They’re not concerned about international law. The only deaths which count for them, are deaths which can be explained in terms of the grand struggle between kufr and Islam. Muslims killed by Al Qaeda don’t figure, for example.

Talk to Muslims who have to deal with this politics in their own communities and families, and they will explain it to you.

You’re not telling me anything I didn’t know, Astor.

@16

“If you accept the legitimacy of the UN to sanction attack on one state by another (I don’t as it happens) ”

So according to you the Agfanistan invasion and countless others are illegal.

You get to pick and choose which bits of international law you accept; convenient.

Stop digging.

Then you wrote the wrong article, Dave.

Roshonara Choudhry will have spent a huge amount of her time, which she should have been spending on her undergraduate degree, studying Salafi Jihadi political theory, from a man who was until December 2009 promoted by a number of British Muslim organisations as a great scholar and preacher.

All that effort, and you completely ignore it. Instead, you have a few observations to make about the failings of British society.

@8

Indeed.

The power of the state used to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people and yet Flowerpower and his comrades still argue that their party’s murderous actions weren’t a crime.

Not that there is any excuse for wasting good cutlery on his glorious leaders, of course. Apart from anything else they are no more guilty than the apologists who continue to vote for them.

You really do attract some very nasty commentators at Liberal Conspiracy.

“Sorry but I don’t buy the blaming Iraq excuse – she could have done it ages ago if she wanted to exact revenge over that… not once the damn war is over.”

People who go on rampages typically stew for years first.

As to you and your comrades pretense that the attack on Iraq hasn’t created this problem, there seems little point in trying to reason with you.

let’s just be thankful that the security services don’t live in your ideological fantasy world.

“Ex-MI5 boss says war raised terror threat”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10693001

@22

“no more guilty than the apologists who continue to vote for them.”

That’ll be 9,552,436 people then, actually that was just the labour vote in 2005, I could add in the tories as well ’cause they supported the war too.

So you’re right and everyone else was wrong. There’s a name for that.

““How could that Combat 18 supporter have attacked that poor brown person. What have we as a society done to create such anger?”

Exactly.

Where do we stop using “alienation” as an explanation/excuse?

@22

Rubbish.

In the last election people who voted for warmongering labour MPs were in a distinct minority.

As well as binning a load of your comrades the electorate also tended to spare those who didn’t vote for the war in the first place.

Here is an interesting thought.

Awlaki first started recruiting combatants to fight jihad in the mid 1990s, in relation to Bosnia.

Bosnia was a hugely radicalising war for European Muslims, and the leadership of British Islamist groups was formed during that period.

However, the complaint was that Britain and America did not intervene to protect Muslims from the Serbs, and this proved that there was a war on Islam, between kufr and belief, and that the only solution was jihad and a Caliphate, etc..

So, Dave – should we have sent NATO troops in to protect Muslims from the Serbs then? If we’re really concerned about radicalisation, perhaps we should have.

She’s an individual, not a layer. And wasn’t she part of the British society that alienated her?

Oops. That shoulda been @22.

So according to you the Agfanistan invasion and countless others are illegal.

The definition of a nation state is that it’s government has the monopoly of the use of violence within its geographical territory. The UN is nothing more than a collection of nation states who talk and vote in New York and it is dominated by its most powerful members.

International law does not exist except in the potential actions of any state or group of states who undertake to commit violent acts to implement it. Action tends to be taken only on whatever resolution suits the militarily powerful.

On any moral compass the invasion of Afghanistan is more abhorrent than was the invasion of Iraq. And it has less obvious purpose.

Of course, we did eventually send troops in. Fortunately, no Serbs became so radicalised that they felt the need to attempt to murder a government minister.

Phew!

“If British society has alienated a layer of Muslim youth to that degree –”

Gosh, she is a ‘layer of Muslim youth’ is she? I doubt she feels like one. But people like us can’t be expected to see these Muslims as individuals, can we. Besides, they all look the same in them funny hats, don’t they?

‘The only obvious answer is ideologically-fuelled political anger, the same kind of rage that must have driven the H-Block hunger strikers in Long Kesh 30 years ago or the Angry Brigade anarchist car bombers ten years prior to that.’

The Angry Brigade were no more ‘alienated’ than anyone else – it’s not like the UK Government had gone to war with Anarchia. The problem is that nihilists will attach themselves to any cause that gives an alibi for serving their own personal psychological needs.

The Angries did no service to the cause of anarchism, which is a pacifist philosophy, they simply lashed out at any target available.

I’d be quite happy to see those who supported the war indicted: but blame has to be apportioned proportionally and justice is not served by violence.

For cjcjc, and the rest of the liberal conspircay I haven’t got a life rightists and
of course most journos
This is a perfect situation.
They want lefties harmed
They want Muslims banged away.
The poor dears must be having multiple orgasms

[33] “Besides, they all look the same in them funny hats, don’t they” – no, but they DO all look the same in a black uniform with only the eyes exposed.

It is said that Roshonara Choudhry was radicalised by Anwar al-Awlaki an angry cleric who prescribed violence from the Arabian peninsula – yet would this man support higher education for women, or the sort of economic freedom, or choice of social roles that are generally more widespread in liberal democracies?

RH may have been a gifted student but sadly she wasn’t clever enough to realise that stabbing an MP would only lead to personal ruin for her and her family while having virtually no effect on the plight of the Iraqis who have suffered because of the invasion.

Isn’t this a bit simplistic? “She’s a Muslim, so it must be something specifically to do with Muslims”. Not great logic.

Peter Cole,

For cjcjc, and the rest of the liberal conspircay I haven’t got a life rightists and
of course most journos
This is a perfect situation.
They want lefties harmed
They want Muslims banged away.
The poor dears must be having multiple orgasms

Hmmm. Are you sure you’re not projecting somewhat here. After all cjcj questioned whether alienation was the cause here, rather than saying any of those things.

In fact the right wing response on here has pretty much been to suggest that alienation is too easy a response and that that we should also consider indoctrination and (on my part) the fact that there is a mainstream dialogue which would justify the actions (which I consciously admitted had right-wing support as well as left-wing support).

Perhaps issues such as this – the sad waste of a bright future, the use of violence rather than arguments – are about more than sad political point scoring? Analysis of the causes should perhaps not be accompanied by moronic idiots assuming that people have said things they haven’t said or even thought.

This is a perfect situation – well, if you say so.

They want lefties harmed – not really. You’re capable of so much self-harm anyway.

They want Muslims banged away – do I? Happy to see Ms Choudhry banged away certainly. Aren’t you?

The poor dears must be having multiple orgasms – if only.

As an aside, why is it always treated as surprising when someone who is ‘intelligent’ resorts to violence? There’s hardly a shortage of intelligent, well educated or cultured people who have committed atrocities.

@PDF 27

Before you start shouting rubbish – think. There was an election in 2005 after Iraq but with it fresh in the mind, and plenty voted for Labour.

while I’m aware that terrorists and criminals often have cause to lie about their motives, I think it’s pretty daft to just dismiss their stated reasons out of hand. They may be full of shit or not – they have any number of reasons to lie – but simply refusing to believe that they did what they did for the reasons that they say they did them looks like blockheadedness for political convenience.

cjcjc: Where do we stop using “alienation” as an explanation/excuse?

But that’s exactly how most people describe the rise of the EDL. How else would you do it?

“The only question that is really left is why. Why would an obviously intelligent young woman consciously mount an assassination attempt against a man who was at best a bit-part participant in a war that she and so many others opposed, in full knowledge of the inevitable consequences to her personally?”

Dave, Dave – I think I’ve got it !

She was trying to tell us something !

cjcjc: Where do we stop using “alienation” as an explanation/excuse?

But that’s exactly how most people describe the rise of the EDL. How else would you do it?

Unpleasant people who are poorly educated by both their education system and their communities/families.

Dave

Your piece has not a word of criticism of the actions of this attempted murderer! (the closest you get to criticism is stating cold facts : eg that it was premeditated), who merely planned to burn books -and not to physically attack anyone

How do you explain the apparent double standard ?

> The only obvious answer is ideologically-fuelled political anger

Why can you not recognise that some people’s motivation is indeed religious – is it that you mistakanly assume that others are like you – ie have an essential motivation which is first of all political.

b*gger – need an editor – that first sentence should have been:

Your piece has not a word of criticism of the actions of this attempted murderer! (the closest you get to criticism is stating cold facts : eg that it was premeditated),

In contrast to your LC criticism of others who merely planned to burn books – and not to physically attack anyone (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/09/08/the-abcs-of-quran-desecration/)

I’ve felt alienated at times in my life, particularly with the Thatcher government.

But I didn’t try and kill anyone.

What is it in the sub culture this woman moves in that is so entrenched with hate ?
It doesn’t represent most British Muslims.

Trying to blame Timms or other Labour MPs as some posters above appear to do is plain daft..

Violence is violence. Using violence to protest against violence achieves nothing.
She also appears totally hypocritical. Why is she not incensed by inter sect violence within Islam or murder of Christians by Muslims ?

Maybe Ms Choudary should peruse some literature about Buddhism as she serves her sentence. It’s constant emphasis on compassion and non violence would help make her a less embittered person.

Yes, everyone involved in the war should face justice, and that includes those like Cameron, who voted for it too. But justice is not vengeance. The american people were stirred up to support war on Afghanistan and Iraq by blatantly linking both with 9/11 and appealing to the instinct for revenge. People signed up to take “revenge” on Saddam for his part in the atrocity. Just as these wars are crimes (which continue to this day), so was this young woman’s physical attack on the creep Timms. Her motives were understandable, but the way in which she chose to behave was wrong all the same. As wrong as Bush and Bliar. As wrong as any terrorist, state or private. We do ourselves no favours by making excuses for murderers, nor would-be murderers. Not if we want to make our opposition to war credible, in any case.

By the way, anyone who wants to link her behaviour with islam in particular should consider the fact that most of popular culture endorses violent retribution for wrong acts. There is a lot of violent revenge out there in tvland and elsewhere. Violence is in the very air most young people breathe, with precious few voices speaking out against it (the tv cops use intimidation, torture and all-out violence too).

“anyone who wants to link her behaviour with islam in particular should consider the fact that most of popular culture endorses violent retribution for wrong acts.”

So it was nothing to do with Islam?

Idiot.

“The only obvious answer is ideologically-fuelled political anger” Bollocks. A more obvious answer is mental instability. But that doesn’t fit in with anyone’s political agenda does it?

Interesting how terrorists from a Muslim background use as a reason/excuse whatever, western imperialism, war on Iraq/Afghanistan, Islamophobia. Meanwhile, people like GWB and others say they’re terrorists because they ‘hate freedom’? I heard recently on the Today prog someone say it’s because we in the UK have freedom and Muslims hate that.

How is it I’ve NEVER heard any terrorist/terror organisation explain that they do what they do because we in the west have freedom and they don’t like it?

@52 C

Have you never heard, what I would call an extremist, to cover a women’s body because she is immodestly dressed?

Come to East London or listen to some of the clerics sermons on the net.

The freedoms the west enjoys are only a small part of what these extremist’s rage about.

52. Yes, I have heard that some express opinions about how women should dress. That includes those who state that women should not be allowed cover their faces!

54

Isn’t that a freedom that these people don’t want people to have?

Claire,

I think the point here is that why does possession of a beard and some religious knowledge give say me (I actually have one and could obtain the other with minimal effort) the right to state what you should wear? Personally, I couldn’t care less if you wanted to cover your face, legs, hands or whatever or if you wanted to walk round totally naked – that’s up to you. These clerics come from a different philosophical background from you or I, and assume that they do have this right to tell you what to do. Regardless of their exact interpretation of the text, those that do not recognise they can give guidance but not rules are indeed enemies of freedom, because they believe that their is no freedom but to obey their pronouncements.

Briar,

By the way, anyone who wants to link her behaviour with islam in particular should consider the fact that most of popular culture endorses violent retribution for wrong acts. There is a lot of violent revenge out there in tvland and elsewhere. Violence is in the very air most young people breathe, with precious few voices speaking out against it (the tv cops use intimidation, torture and all-out violence too).

A fair point, but only if you believe that TV has that sort of influence on people’s minds – and that they miss the moral message that is often broadcast that revenge is ‘natural’ but it does not work. I do think you are right to suggest there is more to this than just one twisted (my moral judgement, not a religious statement) brand of Islam – but I think the legitimising agency was not violent images but rather the dialogue of war crimes and criminal activity perceived as unpunished.

What a waste. A bright young woman, with a lot of potential, clearly agitated by the criminal folly of Bush’s war on Iraq, backed by Blair and this nonentity of an MP who either wouldn’t or couldn’t see the disaster that many of us could see this war would be, moves into the dead-end of extreme Islamicist politics, and will now spend many years behind bars for an act of individual terror.

Would this have happened 20 or 30 years back? More likely then a youngster, regardless of ethnical or political background, would have become involved in left-wing politics. I knew quite a few youngsters from a Muslim background who joined left-wing groups. Times have changed, and instead of taking that course, Choudhry went down the road of violent clerical obscurantism, a road that if successful would be a miserable dead-end for humanity.

It’s not just what Dave O wrote about Britain’s alienation of young Muslims; it’s also the question of why the left does not seem to be an attraction for so many people, Muslim or otherwise, who are angry at what Britain’s governments do. Choudhry is not just an extreme example of alienated Muslim youth, she is an extreme example of what happens when youngsters cannot see a positive, progressive alternative to today’s society.

I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years. The racists have won. Britain should hang its head in shame

@59

No, the rule of law has won.

“she is an extreme example of what happens when youngsters cannot see a positive, progressive alternative to today’s society”

Britain not positive and progressive enough for you?
Hey – what not try religious fundamentalism?!

No.
She is an example of someone turning to (as you say) violent clerical obscurantism as *opposed to* what is by any historic or global standards a pretty positive and progressive society.

“I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years. The racists have won. Britain should hang its head in shame.”

Eh???

“I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years.”

No she hasn’t. She’s been given life with a minimum term of 15 years. There is a difference.

58

See # 11

Sharia and democracy don’t mix.

Why would an extremist engage in a political system they do not agree with; other than to subvert it of course.

cjcjc: ‘Where do we stop using “alienation” as an explanation/excuse?

But that’s exactly how most people describe the rise of the EDL. How else would you do it?”

Earwicga: ‘Unpleasant people who are poorly educated by both their education system and their communities/families.’

But Roshonara Choudhry is apparently ‘well educated’ so she has no such excuse.

@60, 62 – Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, Im sorry

@63 – I’m not going to hold my breath, but good point

To reply to cjcjcjc, one of the problems of Britain (especially, but other modern countries as well) is that whilst there have been very positive changes in my lifetime of 55 years, there are also severe problems.

One of them is that of social disaggregation, that old institutions that gave some sort of moral/social guidance are in steep decline with nothing to replace them. Things that gave shape and cohesion to society are rotting away, but there are no visible replacements. Now some of these factors — for example, the monarchy — I’m quite happy to see go; I’m not too concerned in and of itself with the decline of big organised churches; I am far more worried about the decline of trade unions, having always been a member of one when at work.

It is the absence of progressive, humanistic socially-cohering factors that worries me.

People are far more isolated these days, they are thus more likely to be antagonistic to each other, and will try to combine in ways to overcome isolation that will be narrow-minded, inward-looking and even bigoted. Hence the rise of intolerant religions, such as extreme and obscurantist Christian and Islamic groups. It’s not surprising in a world typified by gaudy, superficial celebrity X-Factor culture, with town centres full of drunk youngsters, with severe social problems flowing from family breakdowns, that people, and especially those from a relatively strong religious background, will reject modernity pretty much as a whole, and try and seek a golden age when their religious tenets prevented such things.

With extreme Islamicist groups there is also the question of Western interference in the Middle East to add to the brew, and the use of Western political values to justify such interventions exacerbates this rejection of modernity.

Unless today’s society can offer a positive future in which the real advances made in the world can be seen as part of a move towards a better future, rather than part of a society falling into decadence, then we’ll see more resorting to mythical religiously-defined golden ages, of which Choudhry is an extreme example.

@66 D’oh. Sorry.

Dr P – you are Frank Field and I claim my £5!

(I don’t disagree with much of what you say.)

Why do the British people keep letting Muslims who hate them into the country? The majority support terrorists and are sympathetic to radical causes. Terrorists are allowed to protest and plan attacks in mosques throughout the UK. When will you wake up? After the next attack or bombing. Its time to arrest and deport these evil people.

Dave @ “I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years. The racists have won. Britain should hang its head in shame”

You are joking. If I stabbed someone , showed no remorse, was declared not medically insane and got a life sentence would racism have anything to do with it?
No it’d be because I’d tried to murder an innocent person.

Playing the racism card is disrespectful to those who genuinely suffer racism and its consequences.

[59] “I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years. The racists have won. Britain should hang its head in shame” – for the “racists” NOT to have won and for Britain to be shame-free what SHOULD have happened?

By the way I think most people here strongly opposed the Iraq war so it is hard to understand what it is you are actually saying?

Fifteen years minimum (according to the BBC News) for an attempted murder seems a little excessive; a bloke in my hometown got just two years for actually killing his wife, and another three for hiding her body in his freezer. On the other hand, I’m not going to start a campaign on Ms Chaudhury’s behalf.

“I see she’s been sent down for fifteen years. The racists have won. Britain should hang its head in shame”

Genius!

I hope you’re doing a satirical comedy routine, if so you’re brilliant!

I shudder to think of the alternative.

“there will be other Roshonara Choudhrys out there even now.”

No. I am Muslim, I know plenty of Muslims and none of us have the desire to stab anyone because it’s wrong and we’re not murderers.

Seriously, you’re well intentioned, but making out that there’s loads of violent Muslims waiting in the wings is a trope straight from the likes of Geller or Spencer.

She’s a very stupid woman who has thrown her life away and not to be viewed as a victim.

@73

Please provide the details of the person you say received a two year sentence for killing his wife. Doesn’t sound right to me. I’d like to check.

To come back to my earlier comment. Ranting mullahs may well go on about the decadent west, and some Muslims, (not all or even most or else we’d certainly know about it) listen and believe.

Nevertheless, her police station interview appeared in the paper today and nowhere does she say ‘I wanted to kill my MP because he’s not voting in favour of shariah, compulsory stoning to death of adulterers and banning girls from going to school’. Instead she said it was because she felt that her ‘Muslim brothers and sisters’ were under attack by the west. Not because of our ‘freedoms’ but because, in her eyes (and the mad mullahs) we are out to get them.
Whether that is an accurate description of US/UK foreign policy or not is another issue. However, that’s how many militants see it.

And, yes, ‘we’ are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan, no-one can deny that. I would say it wasn’t mostly about militant Islam (after all, no-one has invaded Saudi Arabia), there are other issues including maintaining a ‘friendly’ foothold in the middle east, oil, showing the Russians who’s boss, keeping the military-industrial complex going.

@74 – Thanks, thats the closest thing I’ve come to a compliment on these boards and yes I was being satirical. Its an easy option for some with a tenuous grasp of politics and big words.

@75 – Wuth respect I can tell you as fact that you do not know all Muslims. For you to deny there are other Roshonara Choudhrys out there even now is childish and petulant.

Don’t worry though, im sure you and your friends are all jolly decent, and there are plenty of Derrick Bird’s, Raoul Moats et al out there as well

I tell you what worries me Dave – you seem to have conflated the isolated actions of a disturbed young women with a simmering population of alienated young muslims (if we accept your, cough, analysis).

Since you have chosen to ignore posters who challenge your assertion that the “racists” have won, and Britain (at least those who are non-muslim, presumably) should hang their heads in “shame”, maybe you can furnish us with some evidence that knives are being sharpened by muslims who subscribe to the Roshonara Choudhry school of politics?

Since you seem rather loathe to condemn unprovoked attacks on MPs going about their constituency business are we to assume that any further acts of violence are the fault of the victim rather than the “alienated” perp?

I’m not Dave in above thread, BTW.

@80. Please see my post @66, which confirms that my (now much regretted) post @59 was sarcastic and meant to portray my disagreement with the article.

I didn’t ignore anyone, I made two attempts @66 and @78 to clear this up, these seem to have gone unnoticed.

If you see my original post @29 I said “She’s an individual, not a layer. And wasn’t she part of the British society that alienated her?”

Im not trying to conflate anything, and I dont really need any evidence to prove that knives are being sharpened by muslims who subscribe to the Roshonara Choudhry school of politics, as I was pointing out that being muslim and having lots of muslim friends doesnt give Safiya any more insight into the more radical elements of musliminity [sic], than I have.

Incidentally what do you think the muslims who do subscribe to the Roshonara Choudhry school of politics (Which is based upon sharpening knives and stabbing MP’s) will be doing?

If these people exist, that is, which I never claimed.

Claire,

Your analysis sort of depends on ignoring the fact there was a plot to blow up the World Trade Centre before the second Gulf War, when in fact the USA was only involved in one conflict involving Muslims – Kosovo, when they were mainly on the side of the Muslim community against Serb nationalists.

You could cite Somalia if you want I suppose…

The point is that you are following the rhetoric of those who do not share a logic or belief system with us, trying to explain their actions using their statements and what seems to be a strongly post-colonial mindset (sorry – I probably shouldn’t analyse your comments to that extent). But has it occured to you that these old men with beards can be afraid of freedom and the West, because there are many who are not old men with beards (or even amongst them) who wonder what makes the old men with beards special, and note that the West does not have them and seems to be more prosperous, more liberal and a better place to live. If you believe in theocracy, the existence of a free and liberal state like Britain, which is happily corrupting your citizens (what is the term for the population of a theocracy, as citizens rightly pertains to republic) through its culture and the promise of something different it offers, is a threat.

But the old men with beards can hardly stand up and say that they hate the west because it threatens their power, their carefully constructed world and order (even if they are fully aware of this). Rather they have to find faults, rallying points, banners around which they can set their cause – and this is how they use Iraq and Afghanistan.

“there will be other Roshonara Choudhrys out there even now.”

No, that’s silly journalistic rhetoric, a final line to pump up the story, very foolish and unhelpful. However, I think there are plenty of Muslims and non-Muslims who feel disempowered and marginalized by the democratic deficit. The stupidity of this supposed political act is that Roshonara Choudhrys failed to consider peaceful political methods. More than a few British people feel politics is pointless. Some are angry. Some are Muslim. They all need to be engaged, and frankly, some of these so-called moderate Muslims’ attempts to dismiss her crime as nothing more than an act of personal transgression helps not at all.

This is a perfect situation – well, if you say so.
Well perhap if all lefties were in camps

They want lefties harmed – not really. You’re capable of so much self-harm anyway.
Not really, now there tells a story

They want Muslims banged away – do I? Happy to see Ms Choudhry banged away certainly. Aren’t you?
A petty little journo bigot like yourself I would imagine you would like to see a few more

The poor dears must be having multiple orgasms – if only
Sorry I don’t think your capable, more fun writing on a left of centre blog, I haven’t got a clue why, to get your sexual pleasures

Watchman you seem to post a lot on this site. How the f*ck do have the time.

“There is a big difference between the H-Block hunger strikers and Roshonara Choudhry: the hunger strikers were putting their own lives on the line, not trying to take someone else’s.”

Wow. What do you think they were in for? Unpaid parking fines?

Coupled with the author whose main complaint seems to be that this young woman didn’t try to stab someone more senior the terrorism fetish appears to be alive and well here.