Face hidden / (tiresome) keffiyeh-wearing / Palestinian flag carrying…

Clearly a very Jewish crowd!

*Rolls eyes at comment 1*

*Cjcjc swings and misses completely*

Looks like two opposing sides deliberately conflating the Palestinian issues with Muslims in Europe.

I hope it rained.

I explained to her that what Israel does is political not religious, why else were there Orthodox Jewish people at our protest.

The “Orthodox Jewish people” at the protest included members of the tiny sect Neturei Karta. They want the Israeli state to be destroyed, support Hamas, Hezbollah and Ahmadinejad, and work closely with some of the worst Islamist extremists in Britain.

What a spectacular own goal.

@ 4 Shatterface

“Looks like two opposing sides deliberately conflating the Palestinian issues with Muslims in Europe.

I hope it rained.”

To be fair to Jews Against EDL, they were running a counter-protest. The other option is to let the EDL go unopposed (which is admittedly safer).

I don’t know. Someone posts about a decent-sounding anti-bigotry, anti-fascist rally and all you lot can do is find things to complain about (including, bizarrely, the fact that the protesters failed to be stereotypically Jewish). Is it National Grumpy Day or something?

[deleted]

@ 9

“Neturei Karta don’t do anti-bigotry. They promote it.”

So? You can’t stop people turning up. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Siobhan’s talking about something positive she and others have done, and you’re sneering about it because they were standing near someone you don’t like. If that’s your criteria for invalidating a protest, say goodbye to every rally anywhere, ever.

Indeed, everyone who has ever protested anything is aware that there are a lot of unsavoury characters who turn up.

Following that sort of logic to its conclusion would mean that I would have to side with Ahmedinegad against Israel if those nasty EDL are supporting Israel… hmmm… that sort of logic is not so appealing.

Bravo on organising a counter demo, a brave thing to do considering the general scumminess and violence of the EDL.

It’s an ‘anti-bigotry’ counter-protest organised on specifically ethnic grounds: it makes the EDL, which is racist, though it parades token ethnic members, appear ‘multi-cultural’ in comparison.

And, as I’ve said, both sides agree to conflate entirely different issues – even if they take ‘opposite’ sides. The EDL do not support Israel in any meaningful sense, they are just being opportunistic – but Jews against EDL took their support as sincere. They made EDL look credible.

[deleted]

‘So? You can’t stop people turning up. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Siobhan’s talking about something positive she and others have done, and you’re sneering about it because they were standing near someone you don’t like. If that’s your criteria for invalidating a protest, say goodbye to every rally anywhere, ever.’

You are posting on a site where guilt-by-association is standard operational procedure.

[deleted]

Oh, this is just going to be the best comment thread ever…

“Oh, this is just going to be the best comment thread ever…”

I forgot my cardinal rule: never, ever get involved in any argument containing the words ‘Israel’ and ‘Palestine’.

There’s always going to be trolls complaining that Muslims turned up, or that the right kind of people didn’t come to the rally.

These are the kind of people who have never organised a protest in their lives and would rarely even bother confronting fascists. They’d much rather sit and home and throw jibes from behind computer screens – isn’t that right cjcjc?

Well done Siobhan for organising this.

“They’d much rather sit and home and throw jibes from behind computer screens – isn’t that right cjcjc?”

Yes that is right – since the pictures linked to suggest this was an anti-Israel not an anti-EDL protest, complete with Naturei Karta.

Given that the writer is holding up a sign saying ‘Jews against EDL’ and had to stand there while taking insults from EDL thugs – you’ve got some cheek saying that she’s lying.

Why not just call her a ‘self-hating Jew’ while you’re frothing? I suspect the bloggers at HP are already thinking that.

Couldn’t agree more with LO (post 10) – it’s hard to vet and bar unpalatable voices from demonstrations – though clearly Ahmadinejad supporters don’t belong in a crowd of left-wing activists protesting against governmental violence.

Why is it the usual suspects (cjcjc, I’m looking at you) taring the debate with inflammatory rabble.

OK, that does it – the British are officially as bonkers when talking about Israel as the Israelis themselves are.

It’s obvious that I’m naive in thinking that there is nothing to object to in this small and inoffensive protest: it would appear that, far from being a tiny group of concerned citizens, the protesters were in fact dangerous and unsavoury supporters of extreme Islamic terrorism and demeted left wing Israel-obliterators in the traditional Nazi mould.

Well, that’s told me.

[deleted]

“demented left wing Israel-obliterators in the traditional Nazi mould”

I don;t know about the “left wing” bit in their case, but you need to bone up a bit about Naturei Karta.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305

Was this EDL nonsense outside the Israeli embassy more worthy of a protest than the much larger ”Global Peace and Unity” event over in east London was which was going on at the same time?

My first impression is that this anti-EDL protest was going for the low hanging fruit.

I see that there are 4 [deleted] posts on this thread already. That’s not good.
It’s like saying that you think that Plane Stupid are daft … and getting deleted for it.
That happend to me on LC just a couple of weeks ago.

[deleted]

I see that there are 4 [deleted] posts on this thread already. That’s not good.
It’s like saying that you think that Plane Stupid are daft … and getting deleted for it.
That happend to me on LC just a couple of weeks ago.

You are warned that “We have a tight comments policy aimed at fostering constructive debate.” before you post, so you should really expect to get censored every now and then.

[deleted]

Paul @ 25,

We’ll never know, will we?

There are plenty of other blogs where trolls can come and call people ‘self-hating Jews’ for opposing fascists. This blog isn’t one of them.

I see cjcjc didn’t answer the earlier point, and is only interested in detracting attention from the main point. I guess saying something like ‘well done for organising a protest against the EDL’ is too much to ask.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/10/10/moveon-supporter-brutally-attacked-by-rand-paul-supporter/65155/

Have a look at this if you want to see how much the Tea party love freedom of speech.

@29

Sunny, I’m with you as far as this protest goes, but I’m not sure deleting any posts contrary to your personal opinion is the way forward. And it does seem strange that sally’s allowed to come on here and call anyone to the right of Tony Benn a Tory brownshirt Nazi troll without censorship. It’s not because she’s one of us lefties, is it?

but I’m not sure deleting any posts contrary to your personal opinion is the way forward

My opinion has nothing to do with it – I we have plenty of commenters whose sole purpose on this site is to slag me off. But I reject any comments that attempt to slur guest posters. That is what Paul is doing, and frankly I don’t care for the ‘but this is all about free speech’ hysterics. The rules are straightforward. Sally’s comments are also frequently deleted when she slags off people. Feel free to ask her.

Sunny is right, I have had many of my posts taken down.

I smell concerned trolling here.

@32

“My opinion has nothing to do with it – I we have plenty of commenters whose sole purpose on this site is to slag me off. But I reject any comments that attempt to slur guest posters. That is what Paul is doing, and frankly I don’t care for the ‘but this is all about free speech’ hysterics. The rules are straightforward.”

Hmm. Paul maybe. I have trouble believing that Shatterface is bringing out the ‘self-hating Jew’ line. And the problem is that once their posts are deleted, we don’t know what they said.

“Sally’s comments are also frequently deleted when she slags off people. Feel free to ask her.”

Not that frequently.

The UAF, Antifa types are getting a worse reputation than the EDL for going to these things with the aim of kicking people’s heads in.

I think people need to consider the issues that necessitated the EDL in the first place. New mosques are popping up in Britain at the rate of more than 50 a year. The Taliban are claiming this week that British Muslims are one of their main sources of funding. Halal food is being served to children in schools without their knowledge or consent. Muslim communities are refusing to integrate into Western societies and are consciously and ethno-centrically self-segregating.

These are legitimate grievances.

Perhaps instead of writing biased condemnation pieces you should be condemning the mainstream parties who are entirely responsible, through their inaction and complacence, for the existence of the EDL.

Is this place more hospitable to left-wingers than right-wingers? Of course it is. I’ve made no bones about it from day one. This site will always be for the left, I’ve never made a secret of my bias.

That you can’t judge what trolls say on their merit is not my problem – the aim is to stop them from diverting the thread and making slurs about guest posters a regular thing.

@37

The poster is apparently a supporter of the SWP, the party that joined up with “Respect” to promote Islamist extremism in Britain.

Gah, I was going to stay out of this thread too… that statement, Paul, simply is not true. Respect and the SWP have many sins and sure from one angle they might appear to be too soft on jihadis in comparison to other religious extremists but saying that their sole purpose is/was to “promote Islamist extremism” is sheer bollocks, I’m afraid.

As you were…

I’ve never seen anyone from the EDL in the flesh. On the telly they do look very like BNP types, but I gather they deny being racist or even anti-Muslim, claiming only to be against Islamism and wanting to stop the cultural transformation of Britain into an Islamic state.

Apart from the “if it walks like a fascist and chants like a fascist, then it’s ……” is there any real evidence that these people are fascists, or the BNP in (a not very effective) disguise? If so, where can I find it?

uh the old ‘self hating jew’ schtick.
Our protest was clear, anti-fascism. The edl brought Israel into the discussion. How could I not comment on this when there are obvious reasons as to why they are now doing this? Does no one else find this an interesting development in far right politics? Just like they say they are against homophobia, all this has to be discussed. They may be a bunch of drunken thugs but they are violent and they should be a cause for concern. My person politics is something I’ll be honest about. I think thats important as a journalist. If people want to know where I stand personally then it’s only fair to be honest. I don’t think this means my work is not legitimate. Paul Foot, Gary Young, John Pilger are all socialists and they are very respected journalists. This is a comments piece. I’m not talking bout the legitimacy of Israel. Talking about how states act in a political sense is acceptable surely whatever your opinions? I would do that with any country.

As an attempt to inject some much-needed sanity into this debate, I submit this link: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/diaspora-jews-beware-stay-away-from-bigots-no-matter-how-friendly-they-seem-1.299009

@Flowerpower: a few idle hours on the EDL forums should give you an idea of their ideology.

Sunny @36

That you can’t judge what trolls say on their merit is not my problem – the aim is to stop them from diverting the thread and making slurs about guest posters a regular thing.

That explains why I got [deleted] a few weeks ago for daring to suggest that some kids who had delivered a giant ”viagra” tablet to Nick Clegg’s wife on her doorstep one morning were just a bit silly.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GZAZ_en&&sa=X&ei=GSbHTOroM5aSjAfr7_k3&ved=0CB8QBSgA&q=nick+clegg+viagra&spell=1

To protect guest posters from criticism.

“uh the old ‘self hating jew’ schtick.

Our protest was clear, anti-fascism. The edl brought Israel into the discussion. How could I not comment on this when there are obvious reasons as to why they are now doing this? ”

Well to be fair, the higher echelons of the EDL predominately self-identify as Jews (please don’t deny this or call it “anti-semitic” as it’s very easy to prove). I don’t see it as the “EDL brought israel into the discussion” as much as Israel, vis-a-vis British Jewry, bringing the EDL into the discussion.

As an interesting aside, are you taught as journalists to Capitalise organisations, people etc. whom you favour whilst not capitalising organisations, people etc. whom you do not favour? I see this an awful lot and it looks like a very subtle propaganda technique. Just wondered if it was in the curriculum….

@42

I think your interesting theory about capitalisation falls down when you take into account Siobhan doesn’t/hasn’t even capitalised her own name…

“I think your interesting theory about capitalisation falls down when you take into account Siobhan doesn’t/hasn’t even capitalised her own name…”

On the contrary, I’d say it proves it aptly.

Self-hating punctuation aside, now I’m getting very confused….

Well to be fair, the higher echelons of the EDL predominately self-identify as Jews (please don’t deny this or call it “anti-semitic” as it’s very easy to prove).

Those skinheads on the telly are Jewish? Seriously?

Well to be fair, the higher echelons of the EDL predominately self-identify as Jews

Really? Let’s see the evidence for that.

damon – I’m glad the lightbulb has gone off in your head too.

“Those skinheads on the telly are Jewish? Seriously?”

Straw man alert. That wasn’t what I said.

Incidentally, isn’t this a bit of a prejudiced thing to say? I’m not sure who in your seemingly prejudiced mind you have cast in the stereotyped role of “skinhead” but in the interests of being fair (given that you purport to be poorly informed on the issue) isn’t your catch-all, generic “skinhead” label for the diverse people in the EDL as easily applicable to people of Jewish faith as people of any other?

Joe @ 47

I’ve never met a Jewish skinhead. I suppose in theory one might exist, but if one did in fact my mother would have been sure to tell me all about it… and what the skinhead’s mother had to say on the subject.

A quick google tells me the leadership seems mostly made up of former BNP and Combat 18 types. There is reference to a “Jewish division”, but then there’s also a reference to a “LGBT division”, so I expect someone’s taking the piss.

ha ha, whoops MY BAD ON THE CAPITALS! I actually study TV Journalism so no they don’t teach us about capitals. I’ll request that they do though.

SioBHaN

@46

“Really? Let’s see the evidence for that.”

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-the-jewish-division.html

A few quotes

“I guess that the English Defence League’s leaders are not aware of the fact that their ‘Jewish Division’ is there to exploit the new organization.”

“Roberta Moore, a prominent persona within the Jewish Division admitted this week to the Israeli Haarets that it is “actually the Jewish Division that exploits the EDL.”

“We believe that if we call the enemy by his name, we will be able to fight him. We single out organizations that discriminate against Jews and Zionist organizations, and try to explain there is no difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism…”

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/what-are-israeli-flags-and-jewish-activists-doing-at-demonstrations-sponsored-by-the-english-defence-league-1.307803

“Roberta Moore, 39, a petite woman in a colorful outfit, speaks in a rolling Brazilian accent and works for a commercial firm. A Jew born in Rio de Janeiro, she once lived in Israel and now resides in north London. She is not exactly the stereotypical EDL member the media likes to depict, but Moore is one of the most prominent activists in the group’s so-called Jewish division. In her heart she is an unrestrained [B]Kahanist[/B] – at least according to fans on her Facebook page.”

[B]Kahanist[/B]

“Kahanism is loosely defined as an ideology of dedication and self-sacrifice for Jewish causes, such as physical and spiritual freedom and safety of Jews in Israel and worldwide. The term is derived from the name of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane (1932–1990), founder of the Jewish Defense League in USA and the Kach party in Israel. Based on fundamentalist Jewish beliefs, it influenced all types of Jews, from non-observant to Orthodox and Ultraorthodox; it has also drawn strong criticism and hostility from the Jewish establishment.”

“The central claim of Kahanism is that the vast majority of the Arabs of Israel are now, and will continue to be, enemies of Jews and Israel itself, and that a Jewish theocratic state, governed by Halakha, absent of a voting non-Jewish population and including Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, areas of modern-day Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and even Iraq should be created.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

Now my question to you Sunny is, and I ask it with all sincerity, is why do I have to read about this in the Israeli press rather than the Guardian?

[deleted]

OK – well done.

Though I do hope that your interest in Jewish anti-Zionism as described on your blog didn’t mean that you invited the Neturei Karta along!

“A quick google tells me the leadership seems mostly made up of former BNP and Combat 18 types. ”

EXACTLY!

Far Right wing types that have now done a coplete u turn and have become pro Jewish, from what they claimed a few years ago.

[deleted]

I didn’t invite anyone specifically, word spread. As is the way with protests. I’m in truth interested in many different things, so may add to that list. If thats more acceptable I may do that? politics and sequins? Thats what I’m changing too, Thanks for the tip.

[deleted]

[deleted]

I guess they made time before attending Ahmedinejad’s next holocaust denial fest.

@57

Wow, I don’t expect that comment will be up for long.

Joe @ 50

Not close yet, I’m afraid. The statement you were supposed to be standing up for Sunny was:

Well to be fair, the higher echelons of the EDL predominately self-identify as Jews

So far, you’ve come up with one eccentric woman who isn’t even part of the EDL leadership, strictly speaking.

Jews are terrified of Muslims and are incapable of facing an Islamist themselves.

She’s never heard of the IDF?

Sunny Hundal @46

damon – I’m glad the lightbulb has gone off in your head too.

Do you mean ”welcome to the sectarian jungle, where opposing views just get trashed and deleted” – or something? Or like with reading Dougie Clark’s posts, am I totally missing something?
After over a year of this I’m geting a bit bored I must say.
You won’t even suggest what you would say if you were to write Baroness Warsi’s speech (just for an entertaining bit of fun) if she had gone to the Global Peace and Unity event.
That could have been a much more enjoyable thread. An invitation to write Baroness Warsi’s speech to the GPU event.
In comparrison, this just seems like austerity.

“Apart from the “if it walks like a fascist and chants like a fascist, then it’s ……” is there any real evidence that these people are fascists, or the BNP in (a not very effective) disguise? If so, where can I find it?”

This is a good source

http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/the-edl-are-nazis/

There are however plenty of non-racist skinheads. Don’t tar all skins with the EDL/BNP moron brush!

@48

Just to inform you so you can make a balanced and fair analysis Flowerpower.

“http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/32535/edl-step-their-jewish-recruitment

“supporters include an ex-Community Security Trust volunteer who claims “a lot of Jewish guys want to get stuck in”. “I know a lot of Jewish guys who want to get stuck in and want to support a physical presence. It is not your typical thing people want to be associated with, but in this day and age we need something like this. Is the CST enough?”

Joe @ 64

My balanced and fair analysis is that you have so far identified precisely two Jews who have recently joined a “Jewish Division” of the EDL that was launched in June this year. (All the rest is…. Facebook).

Now, sorry to press, but can we have something to stand up the allegation, which you earlier claimed was “easy to prove”, that the leadership of the EDL predominantly self identify as Jews?

Or were you talking through your arse?

It is fairly obvious that the neofascists in the EDL think it is a bit of a wheeze to wave the Israel flag, a bit of provocation, a laugh for them.

It is a fig leaf.

The EDL **leadership** are composed of long term neofascists, neo-nazis, BNPers and their mates.

They don’t like Jews, but it is convenient for them to pretend to….it is after all all politics.

I have covered them before,

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/the-tale-of-two-edlsupporters/

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/explaining-the-edl-and-the-guardian/

damon – you’re really complaining that I delete any view opposing to mine? I think that self-awareness gene has gone missing inside you.
As for the Baroness Warsi thing – I find it tiring that everytime you’d like me to write something on how you see things. I have an idea – why don’t you set up a blog and make your points. Or you can write comments underneath my posts, criticising them as you do every day. But please don’t tell me what to write. I’m not doing a public service for your benefit – I write what I want to write. How about that for a revolutionary idea? You’re welcome to ask me questions, but don’t harass me with your thoughts on what I should be writing about. Pay me – and I will. Until then, don’t bother.

Sunny Hundal @67

damon – you’re really complaining that I delete any view opposing to mine? I think that self-awareness gene has gone missing inside you.

No not really – you welcome a broad range of opinions.

I was surprised about the one of mine that got deleted because I said that those Climate Rush – or Climate Camp (or whatever) people who go messing about in airports, were ”silly” or ”stupid” or somthing.
I thought that was a perfectly fair thing to say, but you deleted it.
Fair enough, it’s your blog.

As for what you think of niqab school uniform, I really don’t know.
Or the Global Peace and Unity event overall.
Apart from calling it a ”Muslim event”.

You call Zakir Naik a hate-preacher in July – and then only come in with the odd comment on the thread about the GPU event last weekend.
I come here looking to be educated about this stuff.
To find out why Harry’s Place is so wrong.

@36

“Is this place more hospitable to left-wingers than right-wingers? Of course it is. I’ve made no bones about it from day one. This site will always be for the left, I’ve never made a secret of my bias.

That you can’t judge what trolls say on their merit is not my problem – the aim is to stop them from diverting the thread and making slurs about guest posters a regular thing.”

Yes, Sunny, only I’ve seen posts later deleted by you, and they’ve tended to be entirely within the rules. Last time, someone (Blanco I think) was beating you in an argument, so you accused them of going off-topic (apparently a euphemism for beating you) and deleted all their posts.

You’re not protecting guests. You’re protecting yourself from people inconsiderately winning the debate against you. It drags this whole site down.

You’re not protecting guests. You’re protecting yourself from people inconsiderately winning the debate against you.

Yes, that is precisely what has happened here. Very childish.

@ Flowerpower

I can’t remember if the video here conclusively shows that they are a BNP front (it looks like you’ve done better research than me on the topic), but it does show that they are racist thugs:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation

There’s plenty of material on the web, I have collated a bit of it:

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/thugs-in-leicester-the-edl/

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/?s=EDL

Enjoy

[deleted]

73

Since when did America pay for our military?

As for the IDF, whatever it’s shortcomings, I’d hazard a guess that it would exist even if the US subsidy to Israel was zero as it would be in the interests of the people of Israel to maintain it. I think history shows they did a fairly good job of defeating all comers even before the Americans supplied them.

Of course, lot’s of Israel’s Arab enemies aren’t averse to spending huge amounts on American and European weapons either are they; I seem to recall the Saudis recently spent $60 billion on US weapons…..

To the author, who’s side are you on?

Israel or not?

False dichotomy alert!

Some deletation (it’s a word!) been going on here, I reckon.

Sunny, honest enquiry: why do some posts show up as [deleted] and some just disappear? I’m not blaming you for deleting the last guy and my response to him, BTW, he was a little fascist prick with nothing constructive to say.

CG – if the thread numbers have to be preserved because people have referenced them, then I strip out the content of the offensive comment. If it’s the last comment on the thread – I sometimes just delete it.

….then I strip out the content of the offensive comment.

Saying Climate Rush and Plane Stupid are silly or stupid really needs to be deleted doesn’t It? As it’s so offensive.

As it’s so offensive.

Think you should read the comments policy again damon – there’s a point there about civility. It’s a shame you think being patronising towards activists counts as civil discourse – it’s just that I don’t.

@78

Fair dos. Always wondered about that, actually.

I agree that guest posters shouldn’t be given a hard time for no good reason and be insulted …. or even patronised, and it’s your blog and you think that kind of activism is progressive. And if one doesn’t, that you should really keep that to yourself. Fine.

But really, people travelling out to Heathrow in a climate change ”flash mob” cannot be considered as praiseworthy can it?

Cutting through airport perimeter fences, climbing up onto airplanes, going up on to the roof of the House of Commons, setting off alarms at airport terminals, running through the security gates the wrong way shouting ”stop global warming” …… surely there is a place to say those kinds of actions are silly and stupid?
Not call the guest poster silly and stupid, but just make it clear that you don’t approve.

http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=plane%20stupid&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7GZAZ_en&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi