“What’s behind the rise of German Greens?”

A good fertilizer!

I’ll get my coat………

Green parties have NEVER been “simply a party of protest”! That backhanded insult belies your ignorance of the origins of the environmental movement, which was founded on advocacy of evidence-based policy. The Green Party of England and Wales’ current support for alternative medicine, rejection of animal testing and embryonic research and endorsement of some sort of absurd moral pledge for scientists and technologists are all unscientific and anomalous in the light of the rest of their broadly evidence-based manifesto.

@punkscience

Maybe not for the internal workings of Green parties, but to Average Joe and Joanna when weighing up who to vote for more often that not (at least in the past) the Green party have been seen as the protest vote. To deny that is simply absurd.

~

@OP Jim Jepps – the problem with bigging up the European Green movement is that we’ve heard it all before since the Greens got their MEP way back when – it’s taken about 20 years for you guys to get an MP in Blighty. Now AV might change that (I hope it does, tbh), but I do think the Greens in Britiain need to be more pragmatic (and I hardly ever say that…). So your advice is right, probably, I just don’t see a British Green (capital G) revolution anytime soon.

Oh and @sally, very droll indeed.

@3 I’m not saying that the electorate don’t see a Green vote as a protest vote. I think the electorate is fundamentally ignorant of political reality. That’s not the point. I’m saying the Greens have never been a protest party.

As for a British Green revolution, remind me why it was that David Cameron lurched from describing wind turbines as giant bird blenders to putting one on his roof? Why is the coalition even now talking about a “green deal”? Is it because Green politicies and language is regularly appropriated by the grey parties? Why, yes! I believe it is! That revolution has been happening for years, mate.

punkscience, it would help if you didn’t spread misinformation. The Greens have changed since:
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/02/23/the-greens-have-changed-their-approach-to-science/

Good article, though worth noting that other polls in the last fortnight have the SPD between 6 and 14% ahead of the Greens, so Forsa might have got a rogue sample.

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

Thanks Sunny for avoiding tribalism and coming to the greens defence.

Kevin

Punkscience,

“I think the electorate is fundamentally ignorant of political reality.”

Unfortunately for that point of view, the electorate is political reality. They also know why they are voting for (or against) certain parties – even the robo-voters in the home counties and the old mining villages can justify their voting habits. Although they may not have your knowledge of politics and what lies behind various political positions, I think it is foolish to underestimate the ability of voters to be aware of far more than surface issues.

On the original post, it is pretty clear that the Greens are the only party on the poll doing well, so this looks likely to be a disilliousenment with politics as normal issue (perhaps worth checking the far right to see if they are gaining increased support also). If so it is interesting that the Greens get this boost even when they are the third largest party in Germany – it suggests there is some virtue in beinga radical (in this case in environmental, not right/left, terms) party even if you are a major part of the political system.

Given the state of all 3 major parties in this country, I for one would definitely think about voting Green, if nothing else as a protest vote: they’d have to convince me they weren’t a bunch of sandal and sock wearing, knit your own yoghurt pot nut rissole freaks intent on turning the clock back to some pre-industrial utopia first of course!

Green socialism/eco-socialism,
We in the UK, who are, in principle, socialists, are way behind much of our European neighbours in looking towards a modern socialist model., I know that I’m a lone voice on LC and probably regarded as a ‘looney leftie’ even if most contributors have not directly accused me of such.
The Green Party in the UK has attracted quite a few old socialists and ex Labour voters, so the op doesn’t surprise me in the least.

@5 punkscience: “Why is the coalition even now talking about a “green deal”? Is it because Green politicies and language is regularly appropriated by the grey parties?”

Isn’t that a good thing? Green behaviour, like non-discrimination, should be at the core of all policy, not just tacked on to a manifesto. I would have thought the preference of greens would be a range of parties offering green policies.

Try comparing green policies with “alternative medicine”. I don’t care where “alternative medicine” comes from as long as it works, which means that it is just “medicine”. The same applies for green policies. I like the ability to vote for mainstream parties that support green objectives, so that I don’t have to vote Green Party.

@5

The electorate may be “ignorant of political reality”, but as Watchman sagely points out, they are political reality. It’s hardly a controversial point to note that at least in recent history the Green vote has been seen as the protest vote.
And yes, it’s a tribute to environmentalist activism that green issues are now being adopted by all major parties, even the hateful Blues, I’m not denying that is the case – just pointing out that to the perhaps-slightly-less-politically-aware-than-Liberal-Conspiracy-commentators public the greens have trad been seen as a protest against the hegemony of the Yellows, Blues and Reds.

The green vote in the UK is also a pitifully low protest vote.
More people vote Ukip or BNP .
There have been independant M.Ps that got voted in without the amount of organisational and media support Caroline Lucas had.

Compare the ‘historic’ brighton pavilion win with Richard taylors landslide in wyre forest 2001 or Respect’s poplar and limehouse win in 2005. neither of those Parties/campaign’s existed before 2000 , the greens have been at it for 40 years.

@15

You can hardly use Respect as a comparitive measure – Galloway had been a highly successful Labour MP for many, many years (not to mention TV exposure, the Iraq war, the incumbant being a Blairite etc)

Careful, now. Forsa tend to show different figures to other firms.

Forsa: SPD 24, Green 24
Allensbach: SPD 29, Green 18
FG Wahlen: SPD 31, Green 17
Infratest-dimap: SPD 29, Green 18
GMS: SPD 30, Green 17

All show the CDU at between 29 and 32, the Commies at around 10 and the detestable FDP at the point of death.

The funny part is that Forsa is actually run by SPD members. lol.

One single German word in the whole article and the writer spells it wrong! Herrgott.

There is even a version of the news magazine in English:

http://www.spiegel.de/international

@16 why not ?

Were talking about a national party that has been going for close to 40 years and concentrates its campaigning in one or two seats at general elections.
They get decent media exposure – Lucas in particular did.
They have a key demographic that concentates in particular constituencies(university towns) , yet they only just managed to win their first MP.

Lucas got an easy run in Brighton,She was selected in 07 whereas the Tories and LD’s didn’t even select their candidates until 09/10,

Respect won an MP and nearly got a second within 5 years of forming, very much down to the reasons you cite but thats kind of my point – independants and small parties can win seats in the UK in dramatic fashion especially if they have a celeb candidate and strong local issue.

Why did it take the Greens so long ?

I’d say the answer is that they are not half as popular as people think.

They were the 7th most popular party in the 2010 election with 1% of the vote.
I think they had less than 10 candidates who kept their deposit , and after The Brighton result theres a real big drop , apart from Norwich south they dont get above 5,000 votes (that includes Tony Juniper in cambridge ! )

Green Party Definition:

“pseudo intellectual, academic, politically correct, ear-bending ideologists”

That said, I do enjoy reading their election material !

Scaremongers ? The Lib-Dems could learn a thing or two from them when it comes to organising a robust campaign. However, note how much money Caroline Lucas spent on her campaign !!!

The other political groups could have each got a stroppy gorilla elected for that much. Question, wonder who put up the dosh ?

@19

Yeh, and that’s in part due to the main political parties adopting green policies (at least talking the talk if nothing else…). I’d say green policies are popular, but the Green Party needs to change the way it gets its message out there because right now it is still seen as a knit-your-own-muesli, sandal-wearing, beard-stroking kinda gang. I’m not saying that’s right – as I mentioned above I’d love to see more Green MPs – but that’s just how they are portrayed. The media has to take some of the blame but not all of it. The Green’s changing their science policy was a good start. I stand by my point about Respect not being a typical result though – their failure to win anything at all last time round kinda proves that – Galloway would’ve probably got elected on a Raving Loony ticket if he’d carried on playing the anti-war card.

@21 Mr S. Pill: “I’d say green policies are popular, but the Green Party needs to change the way it gets its message out there because right now it is still seen as a knit-your-own-muesli, sandal-wearing, beard-stroking kinda gang.”

That is kind of what people said about the LibDems six months ago.

Perhaps the answer to the headline question lies in the quality of the German press?

Having lived and worked in Germany, their acceptance and support of ‘green’ issues is perfectly understandable.

Anyone who has seen the size of the Ruhr Valley industrial area would probably agree with me when I say “they need green policies”

Our lot are not the same in anyway I can recognise.

@24: “Anyone who has seen the size of the Ruhr Valley industrial area would probably agree with me when I say “they need green policies””

Give me a hand here, Ted. I don’t understand how the industrial impact in Lancashire and Yorkshire differs from the Ruhr.

@22

Oh yes indeedy. And what changed? The TV debates, for the most part, and the medias representation of the LDs – for better or worse. But bear in mind the LDs actually lost seats at the election…

Sunny, @6: I am overjoyed, nay ecstatic, to be proven wrong! I don’t know how I missed that piece of reform, being a GP member, but it brings joy to my heart and I am happy to apologise for misrepresenting Green Party policy. Blog post will shortly appear emphasising this.

@9, 14: “the electorate is political reality”

Well, I think the electorate is pretty stupid, on average. Its not their fault, they are victims of a gutted society and an education system in perpetual reform. I don’t believe for one second that a majority of the electorate are familiar with the political manifestos of the parties they vote for. Have you met the general public? Gordon Brown did and it- debateably- lost him the election. In all honesty, for the electorate to tolerate a Tory government is the definition of stupidity.

Blogged. Apologies to Jim Jepps for posting bullshit criticisms of the GP on this post and to all Green Party members. Thanks to Sunny Hundal for putting me right.

Thanks Sunny for posting this – only just noticed so sorry for not coming in earlier.

#19 crosland On the point of how popular the Greens are I’d say it’s difficult to tell from the general election result alone (although it’s a perfectly reasonable place to start). The thing is if you compare the 2009 European vote where 1.3 million people voted Green on a low turnout to the 2010 General where just over 1/4 million voted Green on a high turnout you have to ask yourself what’s changed?

Now I don’t think there were any scandals or shocks between those elections that would explain over a million people choosing not to vote Green who had the year before. But there is one striking difference – the electoral system that distorts the vote.

While I take your point that the Greens are a small party I think looking at the national vote in a first past the post election where the greens took a deliberately ultra-targeted approach in order to win their first MP isn’t the whole story, only part of it. That’s my view anyway.

Punkscience – I think your point about whether the Greens were ever simply a ‘party of protest’ I think is a fair one although I should say I was not trying to paint to a black white division, more of a shift in the way the German Greens are approaching politics.

The German Greens came out of grass-roots protest movements and the way they did politics reflected that. As they’ve won more local and national representation they’ve shifted towards a governance model of politics. Not all of them, not all the time but I think this is a noticeable trend.

This foot in both worlds actually helps them profit from the mass protests going on at the moment (while the Left Party seems preoccupied with their own internal woes) *and* they appear to be winning votes off the CDU as well – I suspect because they’ve shown willing to work with CDU and FDP groups in local government. That’s more ‘open minded’ of them than I’d be, but I do think it’s helped them win support from both left and right.

punkscience: corrections are always useful and I’m glad you’re happy with the work we’ve done so far on science policy – but it’s still a work in progress – definitely haven’t finished yet.

I was going to leave a comment at your blog but my computer wont let me (or your site wont – can’t tell form here!)

punkscience – good man

On the point about other parties taking up environmental issues… yes it helps, because you don’t get very far being a lone minority voice. But you do also tend to need Greens in there to make sure those issues are consistently raised and addressed.

I’ve heard the same story from Green councillors, MSPs, MPs, AMs and probably soon from Caroline Lucas. If they aren’t on a committee, major environmental implications very often slip by undiscussed.

The government’s Green Deal, actually just packaging around some concepts in development in the civil service and industry for a number of years, is a good example of a fab sounding scheme that doesn’t really stack up. Everybody in the civil service and industry knows it, but that doesn’t stop the Government crowing about their environmental credentials!

Hi Jim, thanks for your understanding. My blog accepts all comments so I can’t help you there. As I said on my blog, I am really, really happy to hear about the science policy reform. Great work. I have to confess to not being familiar with the German Green Party’s history but I understand that the philosophy around which the Green Parties OE&W- and other GPs around the world- coalesced was evidence-based and not limited to environmentalism at all but included third-way socio-economic policy such as that espoused by E. F. Schumacher as well as a fundamental commitment to nonviolence.

Its great to see the German Greens profiting from coalition politics and I’m tempted to propose, rather smugly- I admit, that once Green Politics are taken seriously by a country’s electorate they rise to supremacy as a result of being evidence- and not ideology-based. That’s a rare positive endorsement of democracy from my typically misanthropic perspective.

For your next GP policy reform would you consider focussing upon the dismal science? If there’s one field which is crying out for transparent and evidence-based policy its economics.

@27

“Have you met the general public?”

The last three jobs I had were in a factory, a supermarket, and a call centre – the public and I are pretty well acquainted tbh blame must be taken from all involved – education, media, political parties, and cynicism by the public – for the lack of political awareness amongst the public, most people actually do care about “political” things (inc green issues of course) but lack an awareness or a means of communicating that I reckon. Oh and huge kudos to you for your blogging mea culpa! So rare to see, so fair play to you.

(off-topic, but @30 Jim Jepps – if you use firefox with adblock plus try disabling it on blogspot, normally I can’t post comments on them if I have it enabled – just a thought…)

@Mr S. Pill – Thanks for the props. I can’t really advocate evidence-based policy and then run off and hide when someone points out, accurately, that I’m full of shit. Dawkins often tells the story of some visiting academic when he was at uni who had his arse publicly handed to him on a plate and promptly embraced his nemesis, thanking him sincerely for putting him right. I think that’s a pretty good model to follow.

On the public, seeing as your posting here you clearly invest considerable time and effort in staying abrest of politics. I worked in call centres for years too before my PhD and the section of the public that horrified me is the Sun-reading, Gauntophile section of it. You have to admit that a functioning democracy relies on people voting rationally. There’s good evidence to show that that isn’t a human trait.

@punkscience

Oh yes, but I don’t think we’re at ‘functioning democracy’ level just yet. More’s the pity – but we’ve had full enfranchisement for less than a century so not that surprising, in the long run… I think/hope the rise of the internet will help long-term people get more involved and understand more about political stuff, but then again it was mentioned on here a few weeks back about conspiracy theories getting involved in the mix, so who knows..

@ 25 Charlieman

Lancashire is a lot cleaner (air pollution and traffic) than the Ruhr Valley.

Our Greens appear to be a lot more radical and robust in their campaigning.

Politics to them appears to need a form of anarchism – perhaps because the other political groups are pursuing green agendas anyway.

punkscience,

Well, I think the electorate is pretty stupid, on average.

Half the population are of below average intelligence!

I don’t believe for one second that a majority of the electorate are familiar with the political manifestos of the parties they vote for.

I agree, but perhaps they think there is little point: there is little trust in politicians. It’s my view that people will vote for who they view as the least worse party in the present circumstances, the party they perceive to have the general principles that are the most appropriate (or least inappropriate) for the time.

Have you met the general public? Gordon Brown did and it- debateably- lost him the election.

A heat-of-the-moment comment, made in circumstances he thought were private, made public – the first time I had any sympathy for the man.

I’m not sure it’s reasonable to extrapolate from it but I imagine it added to any perception of an out-of-touch government.

In all honesty, for the electorate to tolerate a Tory government is the definition of stupidity.

Alternatively they disagree with you about who is fit (or least unfit) to run the country.

To be fair, it is a ‘feature’ of FPTP that the political make-up of the Commons is disproportionate to the votes cast in a general election.

A couple of good points above.

Voting reform will not solve the problem of competence and commitment amongst MPs. If anything it will make it worse given percentage of vote to MPs elected.

To pick up the point about the electorate not understanding what they’re voting for etc.. , it’s always been that way since I started voting in 1967.

All political groups have consistently failed to convince the public that politics affects absolutely everything in everybody’s life 24/7. Most of them would prefer to ignore it in favour of watching Big-Brother, X Factor etc..etc..

For this reason I don’t blame the politicians for their attitude to the general public.

Old saying, you can’t put in what God left out !

21 @ – I’d say the ‘green ‘ brand has been popular but not necessarily the policies.
All party members tend to assume that if only the electorate could listen to them in a non distorted way they would be more popular.
I dont think thats the case- particularly with fringe parties , socialism, free markets,envrionmentalism etc are good in theory but are limited in terms of their democratic appeal in the uk, its not just ‘ wasted vote’ syndrome ,something as staightforward as increasing the price of petrol to drive up fuel efficiency is hugely unpopular.
The ‘public’ often want good public services and low taxes. Get either side of that trade off wrong and the electorate punishes you, I think the media confuses a vague support or identification with green issues with a willingness to actually vote for it.
Environmentalism as an ideology is not at all popular, superficially people think its ok like being ‘anti racist’ but when its core tenets or policies get presented it bombs. Witness recent attempts by greenies to get ‘population control’ going as an issue.

The LD’s are an interesting case study in that they are now coming out of the closet and explaining ‘Liberalism’ to the UK public who were generally unaware of it and thought it was about being ‘nice’ and ‘common sense’- I dont think swathes of UK voters are going to become Liberals.

29@ At the 2009 Euro’s UKIP got 2.5 million. and came second.

It’s interesting what you say about the German Greens, and I’m interested to know about how the Greens got so popular in Germany.
What I think it shows is that the Greens in Germany are part of a mass movement/project that is rooted in german politics and society, my argument is that the greens in the UK are no such thing and our media distorts this giving a false impression that they are a progressive force that is close to a breakthrough ( since the 80′s).

Climate change,Recession,expenses scandal, fag end of a labour govt- the past decade has been a perfect storm for Greens.

I think we are way to easy on them and keep forgetting to compare them with their equivalents UKIPand BNP who despite hopeless leadership and enduring internal chaos still manage to be more popular amongst UK voters.

#42 crosland UKIP currently get more votes than the Greens but is politically far less influencial. In fact I’d go so far to say that the complete absence of elected UKIP cllrs demonstrates that people don’t actually want them running anything, while the Greens have some good pockets of success on local councils and influence the debate in a way that UKIP simply can’t.

At the end of the day the Greens aren’t in competition with UKIP so I’m not sure how far the comparison gets us and no one is arguing that the right does not exist, only that the Greens are a political reality in Europe (which includes the UK, obviously).

#33 punkscience well, I get to give you your second bit of good news in one thread! Over the last couple of years the Greens have done a lot of catching up to produce a usable and robust approach to the recession. The next step is to get a firmer and more robust economic approach that moves away from some of the esoteric and experimental economics we sometimes come across and into a more rooted, and concrete radical economic approach.

I’m doing a lot of work on this at the moment and trying to bring in people from outside the party as well as inside it to reallt flesh out where we should be going with this. I doubt I’m going to break any secret codes in the next year or so but I do think we can produce some useful work.

Thankfully I don’t have to come up with this stuff on my own – but will be leading a lot of the process.

(ps thanks Mr S Pill – will give it a go)

It’s maybe also worth pointing out that the Greens (both S and E&W) are the only UK parties (so far as I know) to support a Citizen’s Income Scheme, which seems to be one of the few ideas which is popular with both sides of the commentariat around here…

44@

It is , but left and right have different views about how to implement it and how popular is the rise in tax to pay for it ?

42@ its a fair point you make about the Greens doing better than Ukip at council level. I think thats because their defining issue is Europe ,hence their greater sucess at Euro elections, they dont seem to have resolved whether to stay as a a Euro election protest party or seriously attempt to get into Parliament/local govt.
I wouldnt be so sure about them not having influence as they keep eurosceptisim as a hot issue on the right, Cameron could not have become Tory leader without conceding policy on Europe.
If the Coalition is viewed as ‘too liberal’ by rightwingers they will pick up protest votes much as the Greens benefited from having a Labour Govt.

I’m arguing it shows the wider popularity of their ideas (compared to the Greens)that they (and the BNP) can get a larger vote share despite such shambolic campaigning and tactics.
I’m sceptical of the ‘Green breakthrough’ narrative as it’s been going on since the 92 Euro’s (which was a fantasticly good protest vote) .

I think something like 30% of LD voters had Green as a second Pref a few years ago so if I’m wrong Greens should be getting a big swing in May.

#45 The ’89 Euros (92 was the crashing Green vote at the general)

I agree that right-leaning, anti-authoritarian, xenophobia is pervasive in the UK and may well be more popular than liberal-lefty-environmentalism although I’m inclined to see UKIP as a vehicle for these ideas rather than a driver – after all what is the specific contribution of UKIP to the national debate that wouldn’t be there if they didn’t exist?

Add to this there is a specific green movement that the party is part of – I’m not sure there is a comparable dynamic on the right.

But I do think it’s worth saying that I’m sure how relevant comparing UKIP support to Greens because they just aren’t drawing their support from the same constituencies. As you say the Lib Dem vote is very vulnerable to the Greens right now – but few of those voters will be turning to UKIP any time soon.

I hope the article wasn’t trying to go for a ‘naarative’ of green breakthrough – although I can see how it might be seen that way – it was specifically about Germany where the Greens have more MPs than they ever had and are riding on a wave of popular anti-nuclear protest. It’s true that Greens have more parliamentary representation than they’ve ever had right across Europe, including the UK, but I think it’s far too early to tell what this might specifically mean in the UK.

Just to add

I think there is an argument that Green parties suffer when there are larger parties who pursue similar policies so pitching to the left of labour on social justice/political economy is likely to be a dead end.

What is distinctive about Greens in the UK is Environmentalism and Pacifism – thats the ground that the LD’s are going to hit problems over. None of the major parties is going to oppose trident or nuclear power in a meaningful way the LD’s will be found out over this.

@ 47 (Crossland)

Spot on. The Lib-Dems are going to be found out in no uncertain terms in a number of these so called ‘policy’ areas !

Your use of the word ‘pacifism’ is the key to a large section of the public’s political heart and mindset. Our Greens know this. Well …at least in Brighton they do.

Am I the only person to note that as the only left-wing Eurosceptic party (I’m not sure if this is still the case, but they opposed the Lisbon Treaty for example), the Greens normally benefit from an increase in votes at European elections. Just like the right-wing Eurosceptic parties…

European elections are dominated by one issue – Europe – so really are not good comparators. One of the Green’s strengths (in terms of democracy) has been to be able to focus local electorates on local issues in local elections, when they again do well. So perhaps we could suggest the Greens have the potential to offer popular solutions locally and have a viable European strategy, but do not appeal as a national party?

It’s an interesting theory Watchman. I wonder how many know the Greens are Euro-sceptic though?

@49 – Opposing the Lisbon Treaty isn’t anti-Europe, its anti-corporatist.

I don’t see the Greens as Eurosceptic. Their manifesto (see here) is critical, but no more than most left-ish critiques of the EU (and a lot less than the leftwing “no2EU” group that formed a couple of years back).

As with most of their policies, Green Policy on Europe is nuanced. They advocate formulating policy at the lost appropriate level from the local to the global.

“Policies on, and institutions for, global co-operation are only needed where issues cannot be addressed at a lower level.”

…

“Global and international structures and institutions should be based on the principle of co-operation. Power should mostly remain at the local, community level with sustainable, localised economies under democratic control. Power should only be ceded upwards when necessary.”

RE: Eurosceptic

I’ve always really liked the attitude of the Greens to Europe, even long before I joined. I remember listening to Jean Lambert on the radio basically outlining a stance of critical engagement, and that really appealed to me.

It’s undemocratic – let’s make it more democratic.
It’s unaccountable – let’s make it accountable.

I think this a far more admirable stance than UKIP whose MEPs basically roll up to collect their money while moaning that the EU is a gravy train.

The German Green Party and our Green Party are very different beasts.

Yes, 30 years ago Die Grune was essentially an alliance between the straw sandal munchers and the Baader-Meinhoff appreciation society. However, today they are generally seen as a moderate progressive, forward looking, social liberal party, to the libertarian right of the SDP and a social liberal (dare I say more German) foil to the FDP which has become a neo-liberal platform for the promotion of Guido Westewelle and assorted vested interests from the far south.

As such Die Grune is mostly soaking up centre and centre-left voters pissed off at the lacklustre SDP and the FDP’s drift into rightward obscurity as the CDU re-engages with the Rhineland model. In short they have turned into the LibDems.

hi