I expect you think that bombing Iran’s women would help Carl?

Great cause – but not very many protesters.

@2

I think the Pope’s visit may have been a distraction for some

What a stupid comment earwicga. No one in CFPPI has called for America to invade Iran. Neither has Carl. You can oppose war between America in Iran and oppose the stoning of Iranian women. It seems you only care about human rights when it suits your dogmatic agenda.

No doubt if we were talking about America or Israel and human rights you’d be down there selling t-shirts. But it doesn’t suit you to criticise Iran’s human rights, so you smear those who do.

And we wonder why the Right are doing so well at the moment. It’s because large parts of the left have double standards.

earwicga;

No I do not think there is reason to drop a bomb on Iran thank you very much – you confuse me with someone who thinks women’s rights can justify waging war.

Ian; there were only a few to start with, and they had to make an 11th hour location change because of the Pope’s anti- and pro- crowds. There were lots of discussions with people, and as you might imagine, many people hadn’t heard of Ashtiani’s case. Many people signed the banner and the petition.

In my opinion it was more of an awareness campaign than a protest, which was very effective.

Mr S. Pill; well, I managed to do that Ashtiani protest, see the crowds hoping to catch a glimpse at the Pope, and walk beside the anti-Pope demonstrators to take pictures – so no excuses

Richard; it is fair to see I’m not earwicga’s biggest fan

Highly recommended: a Monty Python stoning ritual from The Life of Brian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI

Carl

well done -you’re actually trying to help here – and it’s a tough situation, the treatment of women in Iran.

As you say there may be officially</i. no stoning in Iran, but in reality, there is little in the way of Islamic theology that forbids it.

Like Jesus' saying about the plank in your own eye – it kind of forms the basis behind 'checks and balances' that have grown up in the democratic west: we know that even our glorious leaders :<) are imperfect and the system needs to recognise that.

doh… thought I was being clever with the hTML italics there…but goofed up…

Does anyone know how a stoning is organised – is there usually an orderly queue, or do the morally outraged generally prefer more of a free for all?

It’s good to know that some still prefer the old ways rather than the diluted version of Islam that sits more snugly in a multi-cultural environment.

In some societies when women are not hidden under a black tent they are being squashed under a ton of rubble.

It’s so confusing for secularists to know which bits of Islam they are supposed to respect – does anybody have a list?

A & E

That was a fine question – watch the silence from LC’ers though:

> It’s so confusing for secularists to know which bits of Islam they are supposed to respect – does anybody have a list?

@9/10

The bits that don’t involve hurting people, same as all the other sky-fairy worshippin.

Mr S Pill

and those bits are exactly, in your view?

A&E wanted a list… so specifics are good.

?

OK seeing as I wasn’t apparently clear enough:

Praying/worshipping a specific deity
Taking part in civil discourse
Giving charity and hospitality to the disadvantaged
Encouraging respect for others etc

… and indeed et cetera. All religions have bits that are worthy of respect from a liberal lefty atheist such as myself. Even Catholicism
Doesn’t mean religions escape criticism when they balls up of course. So criticise Catholicism with covering up child rape, criticise Islam when its used to support stoning, etc. Personally I take a Jesus and Mo attitude to it all.

[11] “The bits that don’t involve hurting people” – do you see the burqa as a way of hurting women?

Some regard it is an affront to women in general and the individual in particular, a bizarre medieval custom sustained by a form of indoctrination and a series of barely concealed social pressures?

Difficult isn’t it?

@14

My thoughts on the burqa are here.

Main bits: “I don’t like burqas. I don’t like what they represent and I don’t like the particular brand of Islam that people who wear them follow. But simply because I don’t like something it does not follow that it should be banned – I find the teachings of fundamentalist Christians and the pamphlets of the BNP to be offensive in the extreme but I seek no recourse to the law [...] To argue that it is in these women’s interests – as some have – that this item of clothing be banned is quite a topsy-turvy way of looking at the world. If you want to help someone, you do not criminalise them for wearing a certain garment [...] Whether I like it or not, there are a small amount of women who wish to wear the burqa to conform with their religious beliefs. For me to say it should be banned is as ridiculous as the ultra-conservative Mullahs claiming that women who wear mini-skirts and lipstick should be criminalised, and … is profoundly un-British.”

But I agree, it is a difficult one.

Mr S Pill

> Encouraging respect for others

Can you be more specific – can you quote some islamic authorities specifically who encourage respect for former-Muslims (apostates)?

@Just Visiting

Oh FFS – I’m not an Islamic expert or theologian or anything so don’t bother. I’m going by the actions of my Muslim friends and neighbours not Men With Beards. Although some of my friends are men with beards, but still.

Mr S Pill

I see where you went wrong – the question was about Islam:
> It’s so confusing for secularists to know which bits of Islam they are supposed to respect – does anybody have a list?

But you thought that meant ‘Muslims’- or even ‘Muslims that Mr S Pill knows’.

But that anecdotal info is not the question.

After all – all the Muslims I know are nice people. In their treatment of me.
But then I’ve not met the Muslims who twice attacked my Afghani friends here in this UK market town – (GBH and then attempted murder).
The reason for the attack, my afghani friends had given up being Muslims.

And what Islam theology says about apostates, is that they should be killed.

So back to A&E’s question.

Which specific bits of Islam do you respect?

@18

*sigh*

We’re going round in circles. As I said, and will make clearer: I’ve no respect whatsoever for any part of doctrine of whatever flavour that advocates harming others. That includes Islamic teaching on apostates and Christian teaching on homosexuality (that only Fred Phelps seems to follow, nowadays) [etc].
You wanted my opinion of Islam, well it’s based on people who tell me they follow that faith not whatever some bearded nutjob tells me. Same as my opinion on Catholicism is mostly influenced by the bit of my family that is Catholic (including two grandparents, 3 aunts, 4 uncles, and a multitude of cousins) and not what the Pope may or may not be saying.
You appear to be trying to set traps by getting me to list specific things that I respect about Islam, in a way that implies there is nothing to respect, yet I already have outlined my thoughts on the matter. I’m not going to go and dust off my copy of the Koran simply to sate some blog commentators appetite for my opinions, flattered though I am.
I repeat: “All religions have bits that are worthy of respect from a liberal lefty atheist such as myself.” Even Satanism has its plus side (the free-thinking anarcho-libertinism has its appeal…)

Sorry if you think we’re going in circles.

> You wanted my opinion of Islam, well it’s based on people who tell me they follow that faith…

But that is not what A&E asked.
He didn’t ask ‘what do respect about Muslims we have personally met’.

He asked about the religion/ideology/worldview known as Islam.

> I’m not going to go and dust off my copy of the Koran simply to sate some blog commentators appetite for my opinions, flattered though I am.

What that means – is there are NO aspects of Islam, that you are aware of now, that you respect, that you can tell us.
None.
(As clearly, if you were already aware of any such respect-deserving aspects, you would cite them off the top of your head -and need no further reading or research)

>I repeat: “All religions have bits that are worthy of respect from a liberal lefty atheist such as myself.”

That is a description of your prefered world view – that you’d like to think that all religions have worthy aspects.
A well intentioned world-view, I’m sure.
It is not a statement of fact.
It is not something you have reached through rational weighing of the evidence.

Because as is proven even in this thread: right now there is at least one religion of which there are no aspects known to you that you respect!

But despite that real-world reality – you still prefer to hang on to your preferred worldview, repeating it here.

It’s tough to change our world-views.
I thought the same of islam as you, until 2 years when my afghani friends where twice attacked for no longer being Muslims.

I’ve read a lot since then, widely.
And no longer am persuaded when people try to suggest that all religions are the same.

———————————
Back to A&E’s question – what aspects of islam should a secularist respect?
———————————

Carl – ‘ you confuse me with someone who thinks women’s rights can justify waging war.’

No I don’t. On the evidence available from your online ramblings.