I find it hilarious that Guido is getting so wound up about:

“The media’s crucifixion of the pope…”

http://order-order.com/2010/09/16/the-medias-crucifixion-of-the-pope-is-atheist-bigotry/

With comments such as these, it’s hard to argue why the meedja should not be taking an even tougher stance on papist bollox.

You certainly can’t get less “third world” than Edinburgh’s new town.

Heathrow on the other hand…

Comments from the religious about secular society is always fair comment. However, when others point to the beam in their eye it is sectarian.

[deleted]

As well as Peter Tatchell’s little protest on Saturday, there will also be around 80,000 of us in the arena at Hyde Park celebrating everything that is good and positive about the Catholic Church.

@5 – that’ll be a short party, then.

Doors open at 1pm, and it finishes at 9.30pm.

Up until the wee hours of the morning, eh?

In the light of this recent news report from TIME magazine, will the Mass include prayers for the Catholic church in Belgium?

“The Bible repeats the mantra that only God can forgive sin, but in Belgium, the Roman Catholic Church is seeking absolution from its dwindling flock.

“In the past few months, harrowing tales have emerged from almost every congregation in the country about priests raping and assaulting young parishioners. This week, after church investigators published an explosive report on 475 claims of sexual abuse over a 50-year time span, Belgium’s Catholic establishment has tried to tackle the problem head-on.”
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2019305,00.html#ixzz0zgfErvzS

Regardless of whether any formal prayers are included, ordinary people are and will be praying for all the victims worldwide.

One of the ways we differ from the Third World is that most of us – even those who are nominally ‘religious’ – have a healthy disregard for those who speak to ghosts.

@11 yes, and we all know how much better we are than those poor, ignorant people in the Third World. If only they could just be like us.

You dont think they’d be better off in a secular society?

Of course they would. We should never have granted them independence, right?

@10: “Regardless of whether any formal prayers are included, ordinary people are and will be praying for all the victims worldwide.”

I’m much reassured to learn that and trust the merchandising sales for the visit are going well:

Thousands of worshippers are expected to turn out for Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to the UK, and some will return home with a keepsake by which to remember their visit.

When the Pope stretches out his arms to the masses gathered in parks in Glasgow, Birmingham and London this weekend, the rock star parallels will be exaggerated by the appearance of the adoring crowds.

Some will be wearing the official papal visit T-shirt (£18) while holding aloft an electronic flashing candle (£3).

Others may sport, against the autumn chill, an official baseball cap (£15) bearing the slogan of the newly beatified Cardinal Newman: “Heart Speaks Unto Heart”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11278500

At least the church has progressed a little since Martin Luther went on about the sale of indulgences in 1517:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

Bob B, it would be nice if the British taxpayer had covered the cost of memorabilia, but it would have been a big ask.

Here’s the full schedule for Missing A Pint’s shindig:

1.00 -1.30: Self-loathing parade. Theme: ‘I am a wretched sinner deserving of Hell’. Have you ever felt natural sexual urges – or even acted on them? Why not wring out every last drop of shame and guilt at this unmissable event, including a spectacular dance display by the Tortured Homosexuals! Prize for the best costume.

2.00 – 3.30 Hunt the priest. Family fun time! Try to catch the child raping cleric hidden somewhere in Hyde Park by our wacky Bishops. If you succeed, he gets moved to a new location and the fun starts all over again!

4.00 – 5.00 Ratline Racing. The first team to smuggle a Nazi war criminal out of the Park wins a sack of Jewish gold!

6.00 – 7.00 African AIDS death lightshow. A multimedia extravanganza! Watch hundreds of lights wink out in real time as impoverished Africans succumb to this fatal disease. Don’t miss this celebration of the vital role your Holy Church played in blocking the distribution of sin-enabling condoms to these vile degenerates!

8.00 – 9.30 It’s the Mangod Munching Mumbo-Jumbo Show! Round of your day with a ritual devouring of bread that’s actually the flesh of the child of a human woman and a supernatural entity. Theological counsellors will be on hand to reassure you that this all makes perfect sense.

Can’t wait!

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@G.O. that’s pretty funny though. Can you do us another one, this time for a hypothetical large-scale gathering of Muslims in the UK?

What would the schedule look like for that? Go on, you’re good at these.

@15 – if you want to suffer a heart attack, visit Medjugorje in Bosnia and Herzegovina… My partner and I were unfortunate enough to stop off en route to Mostar – it is hell on earth (and, obv., where Catholics go to have a good time).

What I think basically happened is some stoners made up some shit about seeing or hearing the virgin Mary up on top of a local hill; word of these “messages” spread and a whole town of Catholic tat sprang up in the desert just like that, in a less interesting and less shiny reinvention of the gold rush…

It is incredible, the amount of utter wank that was on sale. And there was a vast car park with coach-loads of ‘Catholic Tours’ pilgrims, all falling over themselves to climb to the summit.

I was utterly flabbergasted and actually quite relieved to see the more familiar signs of human stupidity: bullet holes in the buildings of Mostar…

‘Of course they would. We should never have granted them independence, right?’

I think your head has come undone. Nothing in my comment even hints at racism, though your own assumption that people who suffer from religious oppression in developing countries dont sererve the quality of life we do is utterly repellant.

@20 have you seen the Kabaa at Mecca? Basically some stoner back in the day wiped out the religion based there and installed his own, alternative one. Now millions of these Muslims go there every year. The merchandising is incredible!

Shatterface- who said anything about racism or a colonialist mindset in your comments?

@16: “Bob B, it would be nice if the British taxpayer had covered the cost of memorabilia, but it would have been a big ask.”

British taxpayers don’t ordinarily have to pay up for memorabilia merchandisng associated with other state visits so it’s not stark staringly obvious why we should be paying out for this merchandising in addition to other costs of the Papal visit falling upon taxpayers during this time of austerity:

“A huge security operation was being mounted to protect the pope during the trip — the first papal state visit to Britain — bumping estimated costs beyond 20 million pounds ($31 million), with more than half coming from the British government.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/16/uk.pope.visit/?hpt=T1

@24 “British taxpayers don’t ordinarily have to pay up for memorabilia merchandisng associated with other state visits”

Quite. Purchasing (or not) of any memorabilia is an entirely personal decision, up to the individual, and at their own expense.

@22 – I’m only having a go at Catholic idiocy because the Pope’s in town. Don’t worry, though – as an “aggressive atheist” I happen to think that all religious types suffer from collective self-delusion (yes, including Muslims).

Luther himself interpreted the world in a fairly wacky way, by today’s standards.

@26 aggression is a bad trait in any faith, including your own.

@ Missing A Pint

“We have a tight comments policy aimed at fostering constructive debate.
We believe in free speech but not your right to abuse our space.
Abusive, sarcastic or silly comments may be deleted.
Misogynist, racist, homophobic and xenophobic comments will be deleted.
Please familiarise yourself with our comments policy.”

I plead guilty to making a sarcastic and silly comment. However, I don’t see why a satirical poke at the beliefs and policies of an institution wielding considerable social and political power should be seen as an abuse of this space. If illiberal political nonsense is fair game, then in my opinion so is illiberal religious nonsense.

I would also like to point out that my comment was directed squarely at the Church and not at individual Catholics. I don’t think every Catholic is a right-wing nutter any more than I think every Lib Dem voter is a right wing nutter, but I still think it’s legitimate to criticise the policies of the Catholic Church or the Liberal Democrat Party for being nutty and right-wing.

“The pope’s spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, later clarified by saying the Cardinal “had no negative intention, nor [a] lesser appreciation for the United Kingdom”, but had been referring to Britain’s multi-ethnic composition.”

LOL. “I didn’t mean it was third-world because it was poor, I meant it was third-world because of all these blacks!”

@ Missing A pint “aggression is a bad trait in any faith, including your own”.

Atheism isn’t a faith.

Shouldn’t we be taking all this as a compliment? W’re becoming less religious, whether he meant it as one or not that’s a really good thing isn’t it? Good to hear.

@25: “Purchasing (or not) of any memorabilia is an entirely personal decision, up to the individual, and at their own expense.”

But then you could say that the purchase of indulgences was also a matter of personal choice too.

@19
Fatwa envy? Fantastic. Always helps us spot the sectarians a mile off.

@30 “Atheism isn’t a faith”

It involves belief in a fact (the non-existence of God) which currently has no conclusive proof.

That is a leap of faith.

KT,

“Atheism isn’t a faith.”

As a theist (not a typo – I believe in the possiblity of some big sky spirit but can’t be bothered with the ‘religious’ element which involves letting men with beards tell you what to do), could I point out that for some of those attacking the Pope it is a faith (albeit this probably means they are no longer atheist since they have strong beliefs.,.). They pasionately believe what they think is right is better than what the Pope thinks is right, to a level of intolerance and nastiness that I am surprised to see allowed on here.

The fact these particular faith-possessing atheists are also right (in my opinion) is by-the-by. Religion and faith is not about being correct, but about comfort and solace, and to attack the comfort and solace of others when it is not harming you is basically arrogant and conceited. There is a simple equation: if you want to defeat religion, teach people to think for themselves; if you want to make yourself look like a bigotted Orangeman then go on the attack.

Bob B “But then you could say that the purchase of indulgences was also a matter of personal choice too”

What is the connection between indulgences and memorabilia for this trip? I cannot see one.

“ordinary people are and will be praying for all the victims worldwide.”

It would probably be more helpful if you all made a financial contribution to the cost of counselling and treatment for the victims.

@37 I believe we are doing that too.

#35

As a theist (not a typo – I believe in the possiblity of some big sky spirit

Its not the invisible hand of the market is it?

@34

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, it is a far greater leap of faith to believe in god than not. I’m reminded of how the babel fish in Hitchiker’s Guide proves the non-existence of god by virtue of its existence: “proof denies faith, and without faith, god is nothing.”
I sometimes get jealous of believers, it must be reassuring to have something like that now and again.

@36: “What is the connection between indulgences and memorabilia for this trip? I cannot see one.”

The Catholic church makes money from memorabilia sales for the Pope’s visit just as the church made money from the sale of indulgences. It almost certainly also makes money from running courses on exorcism such as this:

“A Vatican-backed college is launching a new course for exorcists – Roman Catholic priests who cast out evil spirits from the possessed. Lessons at the prestigious Athenaeum Pontificium Regina Apostolorum will include the history of Satanism and its context in the Bible. . . ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4272689.stm

Try this on John Wycliffe (1320-84):
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/thereformation_lectures.htm

More about Wycliffe here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe

He was master of Balliol College, Oxford. On the wall of the college is a plaque to commemorate the death by burning nearby of Latimer, Ridley and Cranmer during the mercifully short reign of Mary Tudor (1553-58) who wanted to restore Catholicism to her realm.

@40 – “I sometimes get jealous of believers, it must be reassuring to have something like that now and again.”

What, a made-up sky god? I suppose ignorance is bliss, and aw’ that…

“… it is a far greater leap of faith to believe in god than not.”

Exactly. Just as it is a far greater leap of faith to “believe” in an invisible flying chocolate teapot orbiting Mars, or whatever the metaphor was. Deluded religionists like to think that just because you can’t definitively disprove the existence of god, it makes it a 50 / 50 or something – which is, frankly, nuts.

You can, of course, disprove an awful lot of papist bollox, which just goes to show (in my mind, at least) that it’s all made-up nonsense.

Go

At 19 you were challenged to show your scathing humour towards other religions:

> @G.O. that’s pretty funny though. Can you do us another one, this time for a hypothetical large-scale gathering of Muslims in the UK?
>
> What would the schedule look like for that? Go on, you’re good at these.

You ducked that challenge then ?

@43

Go

At 19 you were challenged to show your scathing humour towards other religions:

> @G.O. that’s pretty funny though. Can you do us another one, this time for a hypothetical large-scale gathering of Muslims in the UK?
>
> What would the schedule look like for that? Go on, you’re good at these.

You ducked that challenge then ?

MORE fatwa envy!!!

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fatwa_envy

@43
There’s a good reason for not responding to fatwa envy, it’s pitiful. It also seems to carry a tone of disappointment that Christians cannot be relied upon to be violent thugs who will riot and kill at the faintest slight against their faith, as the envier believes Muslims will.
So fatwa envy = racist and pitiful. But feel free to continue pretending that you’re calling out atheists/critics of the RCC for cowardice.

@35 Watchman

You are muddled. Atheism cannot be equated with faith, as pointed out on the other thread about the Pope’s visit, and pace Dawkins, the difference is belief in evidence, and the willingness to change one’s mind based on evidence rahter than blind faith and acceptance of the supernatural.