How come Caroline gets regularly talked over by both the Taxpayer fella and the host, but both of them are left alone to talk? Caroline needs to be less polite or they need to be less rude, shouting loudly doesn’t mean you’ve won the argument.

“He also kept repeating the right-wing talking point that somehow investment in clean energy would double energy prices”

Can’t watch the program to judge the rest of it right now but it is certainly true that “clean energy” is more expensive. If it were cheaper there would be no need to push it, we would all be going for it anyway, (I think solar is projected to hit this point in 10 – 20 years).

What a rude and stupid man!

The idea that if wealthy people paid less tax then the economy would grow is preposterous because it assumes they would invest or spend their money in our economy. I would suggest that a brief examination of what they do shows the lie in this: They bung it into Coutts who keep it in Luxembourg to avoid UK taxation or some other avoidance scheme. Its also worth considering how much they spend here compared with overseas.

In comparison we should ask how much of the tax we pay is recycled into our own economy? I don’t know the answer but I would suggest its likely to be more than the rich currently contribute and certainly more than they would if the TPA had their way.

The TPA is all about the entrenchment of current privileges for the wealthiest and will result in a deeply divided society.

I hope she takes on him over the issue of AV. Hasn’t he stepped down from the TPA to run the No campaign?

Cherub,

The idea that if wealthy people paid less tax then the economy would grow is preposterous because it assumes they would invest or spend their money in our economy. I would suggest that a brief examination of what they do shows the lie in this: They bung it into Coutts who keep it in Luxembourg to avoid UK taxation or some other avoidance scheme. Its also worth considering how much they spend here compared with overseas.

Of course, if there was less taxation there would be less incentive to transfer earnings overseas to avoid it. And since taxation effects all prices, it would make the UK a more attractive place to spend money also. I think your objection is based on assuming that a pattern of behaviour based on relatively high taxation is fixed, when the point is that lower taxation changes the behaviour of those being taxed.

Oh, and Coutts is a British investment bank. I doubt they transfer money to a Luxembourg branch myself.

both Andrew Niel and the TPA twit were very rude to her, they constantly interupted her and told her what she thought, often a gross over simplification of Green party policy without letting her reply, frankly it was the kind of disgusting treatment both Left Wing and Female politicians ALWAYS seem to get these days

Sunny,

A few little errors.

1. You have the wrong Matthew. The title on the BBC page that I assume you got that video from might have been a clue.

2. As I said in the interview, my claim that environmental policies are set to double energy prices is from a report by Citigroup Investment Research. It is called “Pan European utilities” and I’m sure they’ll send it to you if you ask nicely.

3. You don’t seem to have anything to say on the other arguments in our debate, but for more detail on our view of the IFS report here is a blog I wrote:
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/research/2010/08/the-ifs-spreadsheet-doesnt-tell-us-what-policy-choices-are-best-for-the-poor.html

Best,
Matt

@5 Watchman

http://www.privatebanking.societegenerale.com/private-banking/coutts-bank-private-banking.htm

I entirely disagree on your theories of taxation, they are designed to entrench privilege. A fairer society is not just about individual income, wealth is also power so your low-tax society with entrenched wealth and privilege is designed to disempower the majority of people. That is not good or healthy, it breeds idiots like Prince Charles and prevents people from achieving their potential.

@ Watchman

Re: Coutts, see http://www.privatebanking.societegenerale.com/private-banking/coutts-bank-private-banking.htm

Your ideas about tax are designed to entrench wealth and privilege and to disempower people. I have to disagree with the kind of society you advocate because entrenchment of privilege gives us idiots like Prince Charles and denies many people the chance to achieve their potential.

I’ve posted twice and they haven’t appeared. No doubt both will come along in time.

“He also kept repeating the right-wing talking point that somehow investment in clean energy would double energy prices, without offering any evidence to support the claim.”

Well, what evidence do you need? For a start, there’s absolutely no one at all who says that renewable energy, as it is now, is cheaper than fossil fuel energy. That’s what the whole climate change problem is all about: if renewables were cheaper then we’d all naturally be using them, wouldn’t we?

Or we could look at the subsidies being given to renewables. That Defra report out in the spring, which detailed the payment rates for renewables. Currently fossil fuel generated is something like 10p a unit. The subsidy for solar PV guarantees a price of over 40p.

To calculate the subsidy the Govt worked out how much you’d haqve to get for the electricity to get an 8% return on investment.

So, currently, we can without fear or favour, say that the govts own figures say that solar PV is 4x as expensive as fossil.

Need anything else on this? Or are you willing to agree that renewables are more expensive?

@ Watchman

My posts have failed three times, probably because I’m trying to embed a link. Anyway, a simple web search will show that Coutts offers a special banking service in places such as Luxembourg for those special customers.

I disagree with both you and the TPA over taxation because you both talk fairness while promoting policies designed to entrench privilege.

Wealth brings power, and the kind of inequality of wealth we already have has disempowered most of the population. Your proposed low-tax economy would only make it worse.

The kind of entrenched privileges you advocate put idiots like Prince Charles in powerful positions while preventing most people from achieving their potential or even being satisfied or happy with their lives.

There they all are!

@11, Tim W – your electricity costs must be far higher than for a comparable amount in the UK, then?

@ 14…yes, electricity in Portugal is expensive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/science/earth/10portugal.html?_r=2

“While Portugal’s experience shows that rapid progress is achievable, it also highlights the price of such a transition. Portuguese households have long paid about twice what Americans pay for electricity, and prices have risen 15 percent in the last five years, probably partly because of the renewable energy program, the International Energy Agency says. ”

We’re in a 2 bed place, we really only use electricity for lighting and computers. Heat with wood fires, heat water and cook with gas etc. Still 80 euro a month.

@15, I read the NYT article, but it made a comparison with the US, not the UK. And it said that costs in .pt “had long been” twice those in the US, which suggests that there had been a substantial difference before the recent expansion in renewables.

[For those who aren't familiar with the majoring in renewable in Portugal, try a train ride up the Douro valley. Lots of hydro]

How does .pt compare with the UK? Also, remember that whatever the nature of the distribution network you have out there, that part of electricity provision is likely to be more expensive than the UK, given the lower population density.

Not easy to distil into a soundbite, however much the so-called Taxpayers’ Alliance would no doubt like.

How does .pt compare with the UK?

Difficult for me to tell given that I’ve not lived in the UK in 20 odd years really. A year here and there, but adult life has really been spent elsewhere.

Re hydro: down here in hte south at least it’s about storing water, not generating ‘leccis.

And as to hte TPA thing….if you’re going to use a more expensive means of generating electricity then of course electricity is going to be more expensive. Seems pretty obvious really: and I don’t think there’s anyone at all who is saying that wind and solar are price competitive with fossil yet are they?

Tim F, Tim W, this table may be of interest.

The Germans seem to have a plan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/01/solar-power-sahara-europe-desertec

@Watchman

Investment bank? No, you’re wrong – it’s a private bank, always has been. Offers banking for wealthy clients and invests their money in all sorts of tax ‘efficient’ ways including offshore.

“Investment bank? No, you’re wrong – it’s a private bank”

An investment bank can be a private bank….indeed until quite recently, they almost all were. Gorldman Sachs was a private partnership until, what, 3 or 4 years ago?

Coutts was and is a retail bank, just one that’s very picky about who it will allow to become customers (having a Coutts chequebook certainly used to be a very good example of a Veblen Good).

@18, thanks for that.

@17 Tim W, costs shown in that table have .uk and .pt not so far apart.

And this is what I’m trying to get across: Sinclair resorted to parroting “Double electricity prices” when Caroline Lucas had the effrontery to talk of renewables. Renewables are not just wind and solar, and the figures don’t support the Sinclair soundbite. It’s not that simple.

For a lobby group that churns out such large “reports” full of “analysis” and “figures”, the TPA seems to have difficulty in engaging in any kind of debate beyond one liners.

“and the figures don’t support the Sinclair soundbite”

Sure, they don’t yet. That’s because we get a tiny fraction of our electricity from wind and solar so far. Try to get 50% from them and ‘leccie prices will double. Easily.

@23

As I said previously, renewables are not just wind and solar.