Lest we forget, a woman in Iran is also facing execution for a dubious “crime”. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/world/middle_east/10565103.stm

Really sad and depressing case, this.

I don’t know what to say else. Thanks for featuring it on Libcon.

No one should ever be executed, ever. It’s evil.

And the British government must intervene whenever any British national is sentenced to death anywhere in the world. We shouldn’t allow this to happen to our people.

OP, Michael Ezra: “As the Guardian reports, the latter claim does seem somewhat dubious given that baby in question was a different ethnicity to that of Carty.”

That is a foolish statement. The skin colour and other physical characteristics of parents are an *indicator* of how a child will look. Some children bear no resemblance to their parents but share characteristics with other family members. Genes skip generations and re-emerge. My neighbours — black, Afro Caribbean by the census form definition — have a “white” child.

The baby had a Latino name, as did Carty’s boyfriend.

But the issue here isn’t whether she’s guilty or innocent, but the death penalty. Guilty or not, the UK should be pleading for a reprieve.

“According to news reports, it was argued that the intent of the murder was so that Carty could steal Rodriguez’s baby and pass it off as her own. As the Guardian reports, the latter claim does seem somewhat dubious given that baby in question was a different ethnicity to that of Carty.”

Because murderers always make logical decisions eh?

@charlieman and @tim

Yes, I regret making the comment about the skin colour of the baby. It was unnecessary and I should have just stuck to my main point about the British government. It is reasonable of you to make your observations.

There’s nothing Cameron can do for Carty. Texas does not take kindly to outsiders saying that Carty’s trial was unfair and flawed.
Indeed, Texans pride themselves on their judicial system, and will tell Cameron to BUTT OUT! in the nicest possible way, of course.

Rodriguez baby is ethnically hispanic. Carty’s husband at the time was also hispanic. It is possible for a black woman to give birth to a lighter coloured baby, if the father is of the same ethnic orientation as the baby.
There have been cases of black women giving birth to white babies,if the father is white. Therefore, it is ethnically possible for Carty to have passed off Rodriguez baby as her own.

@Sally,

It is possible that you are accurate and that the Governor of Texas will tell David Cameron in no uncertain terms that it is not his business to interfere with Texas law. That does not mean to say that Cameron should not try. A woman’s life is at stake.

Re the ethnicity of the child, see my previous comment to this one.

Because murderers always make logical decisions eh?

It does seem the crime was not motivated by profit but by a unstable individual who wants a baby.
Perhaps another reason why she should not be executed.

Chris Baldwin.

You say execution ‘is evil’.
Is it more evil than incarcerating someone for their whole life?

Is it more evil than incarcerating someone for their whole life?
Oh the old testament prophet speaks.
No wonder you hate the Islamists, their taking your space on the political continuum

Rhys

A little touchy today are we?
It was Chris playing OT prophet not me – he said blankly ‘it’s evil’, not me.

Back to the plot – interestingly, this US Academic says the US legal system has a bias:
—————————————————————————————
It is rare for women to get the death penalty in the United States and even rarer for them to be put death. Fifty-four women are on death row and in the modern era (1973 to 2009) of the death penalty, only 11 women have been executed.

Part of the reason is that few women commit capital offenses, but Ohio Northern University law professor Victor Streib, who has studied women and death penalty for 25 years, suggests there’s a secondary reason.

The justice system, Streib said, treats women differently than men.

“Women aren’t sentenced to death at trial as often as you think,” Streib said. “And once they’re sentenced to death, they’re more likely to have the sentence reversed by an appellate court. As a society, we’re nervous about taking women’s lives.”

That’s even true in Texas, the nation’s death penalty capital, he said. The state has executed only three women since 1973. The last female execution in the U.S. was in Texas in 2005. Francis Newton, of Harris County, was put to death for killing her husband and children in 1987. She sat on death row for nearly 20 years.

Most prosecutors and judges deny there’s a bias, but the statistics show otherwise, said Streib, who publishes an annual report, Death Penalty for Female Offenders.

source for that is:
http://standdown.typepad.com/weblog/2010/05/supreme-court-rejects-review-of-linda-carty-case.html

So are you for or against the death penalty.
For revenge or deterrent

What a horrible story. Is it worth writing to Rick Perry and asking for clemency? I feel so powerless.

I’m against the death penalty in all cases. It’s disgusting. And the Texan justice system… I’ve heard stories from a friend who volunteered for Reprieve. It sounded grim. And pretty far from “just”.

In previous threads, contributors have discussed what it is to be English or British. To me Britishness is special because I share nationality with that contrarian, Clive Stafford Smith. Most British people have never heard of him; those who know, irrespective of class, race or religion, are respectful.

All Cameron can do is to get Perry to agree to a retrial, and I do believe that he will grant her that, just out of Conservative courtesy.
Having said that, no matter how many retrials she gets, and I guess she’ll only get one,and this one will come with all the first class British representation she’s asked for, she will still be found guilty of murder in the first degree and sentenced to death.
There is such a massive body of evidence stacked against her,all a retrial will do is postpone her appointment with the lethal injection.
Were all of this happening in another state, she may have her sentence commuted to Life, but this is Texas, and Texas is a law unto herself.

Not a big fan of the death penalty, personally. The deterrent argument seems like complete tripe, I don’t have a lot of time for retribution (although I would probably have a different view if someone close to me was murdered) and if you get it wrong then it’s not easy to make good the mistake, is it?

That said, I find it hard to understand why people who express support for the condemned in cases like this frequently seem to feel it necessary to throw in suggestions that the person sentenced to death is probably innocent or the trial was somehow flawed, without any REAL evidence, whatsoever, to support them. For example:

“As the Guardian reports, the latter claim does seem somewhat dubious given that baby in question was a different ethnicity to that of Carty” (Mr Ezra, I appreciate that you have accepted that this is utter rubbish, but the fact that you made this statement in the first place illustrates my point).

@12 “It does seem the crime was not motivated by profit but by a unstable individual who wants a baby.
Perhaps another reason why she should not be executed.”

@18 “It’s disgusting. And the Texan justice system… I’ve heard stories from a friend who volunteered for Reprieve. It sounded grim. And pretty far from “just”. – Oh well, what more proof do we need, she’s clearly innocent.

The only sensible position for the uninformed, casual observer (and I am one of those) who does not wish to see Carty executed seems to me to be the view put forward by Chris Baldwin (@3) and Jerry (@6) – my apologies to anyone else who has expressed a similar view and to whom I have not made reference. I really don’t see how uninformed, evidence – free statements about Texan justice, the facts of the case or Carty’s mental state help the case for a reprieve/retrial.

While I’m here – @10 what the hell does “ethnically possible” mean?

@TuringMachine,

I have no evidence that Ms. Carty is innocent. Personally, I prefer a society where killers are kept locked up so that other members of society can be safe from their actions.

My real concern in this case is that if one wishes to be an upright citizen, it is somewhat hypocritical to suggest that proper behaviour should not apply to countries as well as to individuals. If individuals who commit murder should be punished, then those who breach an international treaty should similarly suffer the consequences.

In this case, the British Consulate were not informed of Ms. Carty’s arrest as was required under the treaty. It is quite possible, and some might say probable or even near certain, that any assistance that Britain would have given to Ms Carty with obtaining appropriate lawyers or otherwise for her defence would have no effect, that the evidence was overwhelming, any mitigating circumstances immaterial, and the death sentence would have been awarded. What I do not believe is that someone can say with 100% certainty that Britain’s assistance would have made no difference.

Because someone’s life is at stake, this omission of not informing the British of Ms. Carty’s arrest becomes more serious. I therefore feel that it is necessary for the British to receive some compensation for the breach of the treaty. I would have preferred that Britain’s amicus curiae brief have won the day and that the request for a retrial where Ms. Carty’s case could have been put forward with the assistance that Britain would have provided. It appears that this was not to be so.

There may be only an exceedingly slim chance of Ms. Carty’s death sentence not being carried out but if a telephone call from David Cameron stressing the importance of the international treaty could possibly even lead to the Governor of Texas accepting that there should be some “cost” associated with the breach of the treaty and if that cost, if not a retrial, is the commutation of her sentence from the death penalty to life imprisonment then I feel that it is telephone call worth making.

Theoretically, if there was a retrial and Ms. Carty is both found guilty and the death sentence being awarded, then, away from my general opposition to the death penalty, I would have nothing to complain about.

My post was not designed to suggest that I thought Ms. Carty was innocent, and if that is how it came across, then I apologise. My main case is that the trial was flawed and I do believe that there is evidence to support that contention, the one I have highlighted, that the British were not informed of her arrest and as such were not in a position to provide her with any assistance both prior to and at the trial.

What I’m saying is,that it is perfectly possible genetically, for a black woman to give birth to a white baby if the father is white.Equally,it is also possible for the baby to pass for hispanic if the father is hispanic,as hispanic people have a darker skin tone than white people, and Carty’s husband was hispanic.
RE;The death penalty- I have American family who I adore.
My sympathy always goes out to the victims and their families.
It is perfectly acceptable and understandable, for the victim’s families to want closure.
The death penalty is not an act of vengeance,but an act of closure.
It helps some people close a chapter and move on.The families of the victims deserve that much.The majority of Americans support the death penalty for exactly that reason. They sympathise with the people left behind, who have to try and pick up the pieces of their shattered lives.
Having said that, I can’t even begin to imagine how difficult it must be for the families of a murdered relative to move on. The pain and hardship they must suffer, is too difficult to even contemplate.

sally,

While I am opposed to the death penalty, my post is not an argument for reasons against the penalty. If I were to make such a case, I would have included the famous question posed by Cesare Beccaria in the mid eighteenth century:

Is it not absurd, that the laws, which detest and punish homicide, should, in order to prevent murder, publicly commit murder themselves?

What this post is about is the fact that in a court case in the USA where a British national was tried and sentenced to death, the British were not notified of her arrest as was required under the treaty. Due to this failing a remedy should be sought, not least because it could possibly make the difference between life and death of the accused.

Michael

But taking Baccaria’s idea to it’s logical limit – the state should also NOT incarcerate people – as we have laws against depriving people of their freedom/kidnapping.

The debate is a little more nuanced.

@22 thanks for the long explanatory post but, having read your article, I know what it is about. That’s how I was able to spot, in the second paragraph, an argument the aim of which is, pretty clearly, to cast doubt on Carty’s guilt:

“According to news reports, it was argued that the intent of the murder was so that Carty could steal Rodriguez’s baby and pass it off as her own. As the Guardian reports, the latter claim does seem somewhat dubious given that baby in question was a different ethnicity to that of Carty.”

The point of my post was that, in cases such as this suggestions, based on no evidence and/or flawed argument, that the condemned person is likely to be innocent do nothing to support the case against execution and can, in fact, be counter – productive.

Now,

“My post was not designed to suggest that I thought Ms. Carty was innocent,”

I accept that, and you have accepted that the second paragraph was a mistake, so it only remains for me to apologise and state that, whilst I stand by my overall argument in post 21, I acknowledge that the “death penalty is wrong in all circumstances” is not the only possible position for someone who wishes to support Carty – you have pointed out another defensible position ie that there was a clear procedural breach in the failure to inform the British Consulate (this is a matter of fact, not speculation) and that there should, therefore, be a re – trial.

Also, @ 23 “The death penalty is not an act of vengeance,but an act of closure.” What an interesting turn of phrase. This has replaced “ethnically possible” as my favourite quote from the internet this week.

Michael

Whether the British had been notified or not is beside the point.
The Texans were satisfied beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Carty was guilty.
Involving the British does not make her more innocent or more guilty.
The Texans did not see any point in involving the British. British involvement will not save her, as there is too much evidence of her guilt levelled against her.
Had the British been notified by Guerniot of her case, they would not have come up with some magical solution to save her neck.
The British would not have been able to help her, and they won’t be able to help her in future either.

@TuringMachine,

I think attacking me for a part of my article that I admitted I would not have included,after I said that I would not include it is a bit harsh. In any event, I originally included it not based on a whim but due to the fact that it was an argument that was reported in the Guardian. Now, I am not one to argue that the Guardian is always fair with its reporting, but it is not some non quotable source. I listed and referenced my source for the claim. I suggest your complaint is better directed towards that newspaper than towards myself. In any event, I note that you apologise to me and that is satisfactory.

@sally,

I totally disagree with you that it is beside the point that the British were not informed. You state, “The Texans did not see any point in involving the British.” In contrast to that, I suggest that there is an international treaty and the Texans were in breach of the agreement by not informing the British. The Texans do not have the authority to pick and choose when they must inform the British when they arrest a British national, they have to do so in all circumstances. This was agreed on behalf of President Truman when the Treaty was originally put in place and has remained in place ever since.

You also state: “Had the British been notified by Guerniot of her case, they would not have come up with some magical solution to save her neck.” This is a big conclusion to jump to when you do not know for certain. You are just guessing. It is entirely possible that the British would have helped Carty obtain better legal representation and even if this would not have altered the jury’s view that Carty was guilty, it might have meant that the jury would have given more weight to mitigating circumstances and hence the death penalty would not have been applied. I do not know either as, like you, I am guessing. I could be wrong and you could be wrong, the problem is that a woman’s life is at stake and I do not think it is right to guess when that is the case.

@28 So, you aren’t responsible for something you put in your article because someone else originally wrote it and you were only referring to their work, eh? Yes, that both makes perfect sense and should strengthen the casual observer’s view of your integrity and journalistic standards.

Do you think that you might be just slightly over – sensitive? I wasn’t “attacking” you, I was pointing out that the argument linking motive, the ethnicity of the baby and the ethnicity of Carty, which was clearly aimed at casting doubt on her guilt, is rubbish and that such arguments can be counter – productive. Since then I have, of course, learned that you are in no way responsible for the content of articles authored by you in the event that said content consists of references to someone else’s work (which of course you are under no obligation whatsoever to check) and, in light of this, I have completely changed my view so, to be absolutely clear I now think that:

a. You are not in any way responsible for references to the work of others you may make in articles you write

b. You certainly can not be expected to check the facts or logic contained in anyone else’s work you choose to quote or to which you make reference

c. Making an argument which attempts to cast doubt on Carty’s guilt the subject of the second paragraph of a short article in no way implies that you were actually suggesting that there is doubt about Carty’s guilt

Do you find that acceptable? Or am I being a bit harsh again? After all, I have questioned your integrity.

Michael

I have total faith in the Texan judicial system. Linda Carty did get a fair trial in Texas, even without British representation. You’ll see, even when the British do get involved, and should Carty get a retrial, she will still be sentenced to death due to the fact that the British will not be able to pull any rabbits out of a hat to save her.
She is guilty beyond a shadow of doupt. Texas is not some third world state.
Things are done properly there. They do not kill some one without obtaining overwhelming evidence of their guilt first.
Oh yeah, the British will argue this and that, but the Texans are prepared for that.
The Texans will abide by the terms of the treaty, and Carty will be granted a retrial. More’s the pity for her. At the end of the day, the Texans will abide by the law, and their prosecution counsel will still be able to prove Carty’s guilt.

I agree with Michael, that Carty ought at least be able to argue her case with the backing of first class British representation. The Texans are confident that their case for the prosecution is watertight, so what do they have to lose.
Were Carty to get a retrial, it would be interesting to see, whether the defence could actually find any loopholes in the prosecution’s arguments.I doubt it.

What happened to the real Sally?

There are two relevant points here:

1) Texas is, in fact, a barbaric medieval hell-hole; its judicial system is entirely happy to murder innocent people; and only the blindest lover of all things American would even consider claiming otherwise.

2) However, the Governor of Texas is unlikely to take kindly to people pointing this out, whereas there’s a small chance that if British people flatter his ego by lying that his state is “committed to the rule of law” and asking for Carty’s retrial on that basis, he might feel slightly better disposed towards such things.

@Just Visiting (25)

I apologise that I missed your earlier comment. Yes, I know the case against the the death penalty cannot be summed up in a single sentence. The point of my comment was that my main post was not an argument against the death penalty but an argument that the terms of an international treaty should be kept.

@TuringMachine (29)

I think you have made yourself clear, thanks.

@sally (30 and 31)

In the event that there is a retrial and Carty is both found guilty and sentenced to death, then, apart from my general opposition to the death penalty, I doubt I will have anything to complain about.

In my opinion, while in all trials the procedures should be properly adhered to, in a capital case it is especially imperative that that this is so. Even those in favour of the death penalty accept that once this sentence has been carried out, it cannot be reversed.

“Do you want it?”

The appeal court opinion summarised a theory. One of the kidnappers used a mobile phone from the apartment. He said: “Do you want it?” The implied allegation is that SHE master-minded all by way of conspiracy. In particular it was alleged that she was the person on the other end of his phone. Let’s think this one through for a moment everybody, please.

Why would the kidnapper from inside the apartment ask her “Do you want it?” if he was there for that purpose under her instruction already? Is this a logical error caused by confusion of factors, robbery and kidnap mixed up together? Why ask her at such a late stage, that question? If she had instructed them to get her the baby (and say she was waiting outside as alleged) why then ask HER “Do you want it” if SHE sent them in there to get it and waiting outside? “Do you want it?” would at least have to fit that hypothesis. Can someone please try and make sense of this clearly?

Think about it. Why would he have to ask her whether she wants it or not? Does the theory shove a square peg into a hole? Does that look or smell “lets make it fit” to rope her in?

Is shift-of-blame more consistent with “Do you want it”?

Phone chip

Was the particular phone chip card rather than merely just her phone was found in her possession? If not, can someone suggest why was this not presented as evidence AGAINST her?

DNA

Also, why no DNA or fingerprints from the actual bag and duct tape presented as evidence AGAINST her?

Hard evidence?

If so certain, why hard evidence such as phone chip and DNA or prints from the duct tape or bag missing against her?

@TuringMachine: I was voicing my disgust at the entire death penalty system, actually. I think the death penalty is unjust; that was what that little paragraph was about.

@sally: Texas never executes innocent people? I find that very hard to believe. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

>>>latter claim does seem somewhat dubious given that baby in question was a different ethnicity to that of Carty.”

Because murderers always make logical decisions eh?<<<

Or rather media organs make post facto logical decisions for subjects of their articles. In the clinical psychiatric world, these're what're known as "interpretations."

In absence of comments on #34 this morning so far, I put forward the hypothesis that it was someone else at the other end of his phone at the apartment.

What if she has been telling the truth all along?

@Jo

Is there anything in your article that points to Willingham’s innocence?

a) re 39,42 Willingham innocence

Apparently the scientific analysis in Willingham’s case was presented by a zealous expert. The possibly false allegation was that flammable ignition fuel had been used. It was later established by another expert that a flash-over in an ordinary fire (such as started by a faulty heater) could have left identical evidence. This rendered the scientific case against Willingham inconclusive. It may have been misleading. His allegedly battered wife took a negtive view of his alleged intent. This tipped the scales against him it seems. Her view appeared to be based substantially on personal opinion. This was set in tragic context of losing her children in the fire it seems. In that sense Willingham got blamed through-out apparently.

Was it that his own wife apparently “felt” he set the fire somehow? She was somewhere other than at the house. Had she married knowing him? What underlies her view? What would make it reasonable for a court to say he could have been actually innocent given the non-conclusive scientific evidence? Would the feelings of a wife be a reasonable basis without any further evidence? How much evidence was necessary for burnings at the stake a few hundred years ago?

b) Linda Carty – Phone record fallacy?

Is anyone concerned about the points raised regarding Linda Carty earlier? As I understand the phone records were hypothetical. It could theoretically have been anyone’s phone number. No phone chip of that mobile number was located as far as I am aware. Did they simply presume it was her’s to suit a theory of her alleged involvement? Of course, if alleged phone record evidence is undisputed due to unfair process then it would appear true regardless. It would appear true even if it actually was someone else phone number. Is it easy to make an allegation? What if it is undisputed due to ineffective council? How easy is it to make that stick?

d) Multiple witness fallacy?

A fair process should be given to ANYONE unless society determines that this is no longer necessary in modern times. Has such a new law been passed now, Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 perhaps? A fair process would be one where every point of evidence is properly examined and cross-examined from both sides. One side alone should be inconclusive, as in the side of the authority infinitely more powerful than an individual defendant such as Linda Carty.

Effective cross-examination appears not to have happened in Linda Carty’s case.

In particular, the career criminals who had clearly done bargains with the prosecution testified against Linda Carty. It would appear they were saved from rigorous cross-examination as intended by Carty’s representative on a technicality. So the result is of course that the evidence will LOOK absolutely terrible whether actually true or not. The possibly unfair result certainly makes for a horrendous sounding story and easy for the public to hate her.

Can you be sure that alleged facts are actual true if a trial’s fairness is questionable?

Just for the record, what was the last country to abolish the death penalty?

@44 Shatterface

The last countries to abolish the death penalty would appear to be Togo (June 2009) and Burundi in 2009, both African countries.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation
for an interesting world map.

In Britain certainly, there were miscarriages of justice in the case of Timothy Evans in the 50′s, who was hanged for Reginald Christie’s crimes at 10 Rillington Place.
Also in the 50′s,Derek Bentley was hanged,apparently for encouraging an under age delinquent friend to shoot a police officer, while they were robbing a Warehouse in Croydon.
Now new DNA evidence has come to light, that the American homeopath, Dr.Hawley Crippen, who lived in London about 100 years ago, was hanged innocently.