Can’t see the problem with the Sun, it’s just a play on words. “Herr” isn’t exactly offensive is it?

For me, it’s win-win whenever England play Germany. Either England win (hooray!) or a lot of Daily Star reading morons will feel thoroughly miserable (hooray!).

Thanks for that thought Larry. It has brightened my outlook on the game.

Some of us were supporting Germany before they were drawn against England… But now, frankly, there’s no excuse!

‘Deutschland, Deutschland über alles…’

‘Can’t see the problem with the Sun, it’s just a play on words. “Herr” isn’t exactly offensive is it?’

It’s not even a case of ‘not moving on from the past’: ‘Herr’ is still the current equivalent of ‘Mr’.

Have any Germans complained?

The Star is showing in impressive sense of history: Huns

personally, this doesn’t bother me too much. If foreign newspapers want to use mildly derogatory words to describe the Brits (is Le Rosbif derogatory?) I can live with that.

Look very closely at the Star’s front page. See the heading just above the main story, “Win sets up clash with foes”? Anyone who still describes the Germans as our “foes” 65 years after the Second World War is a xenophobe, pure and simple.

@Doxie

I think they’re referring to them as ‘foes’ in a football sense, due to our history with them (we beat them in ’66, they have a horrible knack of dumping us out of tournaments on penalties etc.)

Looking forward to a World Cup match against our oldest FOOTBALL foes does not make one a xenophobe.

The final word on this should go to Harry Hutton.

“Looking forward to a World Cup match against our oldest FOOTBALL foes does not make one a xenophobe.”

No, but it makes one an optimist. It would require Scotland to qualify surely…

‘Hun’, ‘boche’, ‘kraut’ all fairly anodyne terms compared to ‘paki’, ‘wog’, or ‘nigger’ (as Big Ron found to his cost).
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/ron-atkinson-quits-itv-after-his-racist-remarks-are-heard-on-air-560834.html

I do not regard the language highlighted as ‘anti-German’ per se, although English fans and probably even the English team may well fear their youthful opponents on Sunday, not least because the Germans have the upper hand when it comes to world cup clashes?

In the current climate I suspect footie pundits will be careful how they refer to Joachim Loew’s team, perhaps lapsing into the usual cliches about German ‘efficiency’, or superior penalty taking skills (as if such esoteric qualities could be ever attributed to a particular nation).

Isn’t this item in danger of diluting a very important concept (racism) so that even the most innocuous slight is trumped up into something that it really isn’t (in this case a dislike of Germans).

Of course some will not be content until ALL language is couched in entirely neutral, or non-offensive terms, but I suspect there will still be a dissonance between what people say and what they are really thinking?
Certainly the tendency to use disparaging terms to describe opponents seems almost universal?
http://www.rsdb.org/

@Watchman

But that’s the point I’m making. England and Scotland are foes in terms of their history (Scotland don’t qualify dor nearly enough tournaments for them to be considerly foes on a purely football level!). The ‘grudge match’ status of any footballing contest between England and Germany, however, comes from a long line of football history (not that I’m saying there isn’t history between England and Scotland at football).

Apologies for the many mis-types in my last post – I’m still not quite used to the BlackBerry keypad!

“Now for the Hun”? I didn’t realise Rangers were playing…

Daniel,

The grudge match is only really in the English mind though – the Germans are far more concerned with the Netherlands.

And considering the ‘two world wars and one world cup’ chant (to which a sensible German once pointed out the Germans are now winning, with four football trophies…), I don’t think this grudge is based in football myself, although it may be mutating that way.

See what the German rag makes of ours:

‘Es ist immer wieder dasselbe, wenn England auf Deutschland trifft: Die englische Presse schießt aus allen Rohren, hetzt gegen Deutschland, schreckt auch nicht vor fiesen Nazi-Vergleichen zurück…’

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball-wm-2010-suedafrika/2010/06/24/deutsch/her-mit-den-deutschen/die-pressestimmen-aus-england.html

I haven’t seen any references in the tabloids to Nazi-ism. The only reference I have seen are on these boards, when the poster “J” decided to quote the old national anthem “Deutschland, Deutschland über alles…”

Anyhoo, it’s fantastic to see that the black South African fans have swung their support to England, now that they’re out of the running.

Commentators on the TV attributed this to the popularity of the Premiership, but I like to think it is also because there are so many English players of African decent.

“Commentators on the TV attributed this to the popularity of the Premiership, but I like to think it is also because there are so many English players of African decent.”

Good to know that you credit South Africans with intelligence and discrimination above chosing along the lines of skin colour then…

It is of course nothing to do with the fact that our two countries generally have friendly relations, and that the UK was important in ending apartheid? Or even the fact that we use the same lingua franca?

Doxie – Re your comment

If we all thought like you homo sapiens would die out as a species! Daniel is right in his interperatation of the said arguement! Being competetive is a good thing, it drives us forward, as long as the banter is light hearted and we have the ability to take it on the chin if it doesn’t go our way, which I suspect it won’t, then good luck to the germans. Loosen up a bit!

Watchman.

I’m not judging anyone, but I do know there is a racial element to sport in SA. Football is largely followed by black South Africans and rugby is mainly support by whites.

In fact, colour of skin has played a significant part in South African society for quite a while and you don’t get over that kind of history overnight.

I imagine if I was a black South African, I wouldn’t share your fondness for the “generally friendly relations” or lingua franca. I would also probably not place Britain’s importance in ending apartheid as high as you do.

I might prefer to support a nation that fields such a blended mix of races because it gives me hope for the future. I might just support them out of bloody mindedness and to hell with “intelligence and discrimination”. There again, I might support them for the reasons you mention.

Who knows? I don’t and, as I said, “I’m not judging anyone”, but I thought it was great to see them getting behind England.

@17 – you’re obviously not looking hard enough.

Read the article I referenced:

Achtung! Surrender – For you Fritz, ze Euro 96 Championship is over,
Watch out Krauts. England are gonna bomb you to bits,
Let’s blitz Fritz,
Return of Ze Black Shirts,

Incidentally, the anthem I referenced has little to do with the Nazis; the lyrics were written almost 100 years before Hitler came to power and were adopted by the Weimar Republic…

Besides which, it was a football comment: the German team above all others.

(And I’d rather sing that that ‘our’ frankly obscene effort.)

J, those headlines are disgraceful, but I was pleased to see that all but two were from Euro 96.

Hopefully Fleet Street has grown up in the past 14 years, but I’m sure the worst will come if (when?) Germany knock us out.

@Watchman

I agree that it is more of a grudge match for the English than for the Germans – I think this is more to do with the fact that the Germans have (sadly) enjoyed much greater success in world football than the English!

And the Germany/Holland rivalry (which has been running for over 30 years) is further proof of long running feuds having nothing to do with general history, and everything to do with football.

[23] “And the Germany/Holland rivalry (which has been running for over 30 years) is further proof of long running feuds having nothing to do with general history” – are you sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_Netherlands_football_rivalry

According to Wiki, “Dutch musicians de Toppers scored a hit in the Netherlands with the song “Wir Sind die Holländer” which heavily referenced the rivalry between the countries, including the fact that many Dutch still mockingly complain about the Germans “stealing our bikes”, referring to Nazi Germany confiscating Dutch bikes during World War II”.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. It’s only a bit of fun. If you take it seriously or are offended then you need to question how seriously you take life. My wife is German and none of her family take it seriously. They find it very amusing!

There is a similar piece here looking at the Mirror front page from Euro 96

http://www.threelionsonashirt.com/2010/06/achtung-surrender-back-in-time-to-the-infamous-mirror-front-page/

On the beeb today: A German view on English football

‘What I don’t understand, though, are newspaper headlines like The Sun’s “Get Ready for Germ Warfare”…

… when I talk to English friends about football, they never ever use words like “Blitzkrieg” or “Fritz”.

I have no idea why British media, especially the tabloids, use these hackneyed stereotypes. Don’t they know better?

World War II is long over. I was born in 1971.

I suspect that British journalists rely on these stereotypes because they lack creativity.’

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10412377.stm

All, of course, entirely true.
Fucking tabloid hacks…

Come on Germany!

J, this is an attack on the British media, not English foorball. I agree it shows lack of journalistic creativity

Come on England!!!

I do like the theory that the World Cup is a recapitulation of WW2: the French go home, England to face Germany…

@28

Russians take over half of Europe and the US destory Japan in the final?? summat wrong with WW2 = football analogies!

“haven’t seen any references in the tabloids to Nazi-ism. The only reference I have seen are on these boards, when the poster “J” decided to quote the old national anthem “Deutschland, Deutschland über alles…””

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles — the refrain of the the Deutschlandlied has nothing to do with Nazism — it is a song linked to the March Revolution of 1848 — essentially a liberal revolution. It was one of the symbols of that revolt — along with the black red and gold flag.

Interesting to see how ignorance and prejudice go hand in hand.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles
Über alles in der Welt”, or…
“Germany, Germany over all
Over all in the world”

…was adopted by the Wiemar Republic, but you can see why the Nazis wouldn’t want to replace it in a hurry.

You might think it ‘has nothing to do with the Nazis’, but the post war Govt of West Germany certainly did, which is why they replaced it with the more palatable third stanza…
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland! or
Consensus and right and freedom for the German Fatherland.

This continued to be the German national anthem after unification and is the only stanza that is officially sung.

So, to dig up a 70 year old national anthem, that was predominantly (and lastly) used by the Nazis is indeed a ‘reference to Nazism’.

A number of points.
1. The Germans do not look at the England football team in the way we look at the German FA.We have an inferior complex, they don’t. Their grudge matches are with the Dutch and the Argentinians.
2. I worry about this game because of English over reaction. I have friends over in SA and they say all the fans are partying together and their no fan segregation.
The SA blacks have adopted England as their second team. that could change when we lose on Sunday because will will lose to the better side.
4. As for Deutschland, Deutschland über alles . Tim is spot on. It always make chuckle when I hear morons booing the German anthem, then push out their chests and sings a dirge, which is a homage to a upper class German family. Irony eh
5. Watchman as for Scotland , I am sure the Curling world cup is coming up.

Rhys is spot on regarding 1.

Scottish fans think there is a huge rivalry between them and England, but it is only one way. England doesn’t care one way or another regarding Scotland because Germany is our bogeyman. They’ve consistently played better than us, rubbed our nose in it and we hate it. Scottish football fans hate England for exactly the same reasons. Germany feels the same about their bogeyman and in turn I’m sure the Dutch have theirs. Maybe Brazil is sitting on top of the pile feeling smug.

With regard to his second point, I’ll bet a month’s salary that there is no trouble above what normally happens outside your average British pub on a Saturday night (although I bet the press will blow it into something it isn’t).

Finally your third point, like Tim’s, is depressing to read anywhere, but to read such nonsense on a left of centre blog is outrageous.

For the sake of any other idiots out there, let me try to explain Deutschland, Deutschland über alles is NOT the German national anthem. The stanza of “Deutschlandlied” containing “user alles” hasn’t been used since the Nazis were deposed 70 years ago!

Why the hell does anyone have to drag up what happened 70 years ago?? Move on, everyone else has!

Terry
Tim and I are making your point, we all singing from the same hymn sheet. Sorry for the pun.
As for the reaction after the match I am more worried about the fans reaction in SA not the morons in the UK who will burn Audis.

Rhys, I am afraid that Tim is not agreeing with you (us).

He sees no problem singing the ‘uber alles’ version because it predates, and was not exclusive to, the Nazis (although used by them).

This is like saying there’s no problem waving a swastika for the same reasons, (the swastika predating the Nazis by hundreds of years and used across the globe by many civilisations and religions) but there is a problem. It is indeed interesting to see how ignorance and prejudice go hand in hand.

I think, if the German Government felt it was important enough to drop it when they began to build modern Germany… we should respect that and not sing it either.

Having said that, I really, really hope we give them a good thumping tomorrow!

So do I Terry but I fear the worst.

Rhys, after today, we’re about to find out, but I hinestly think (hope) those days are behind us.

Ha ha ha.

Victory for Germany! (And England were a load of shite.)

Well done J. I know you followed Germany from the very beginning, so you deserve this moment in the sun.

I do hope you haven’t upset your hosts too much with your constant references to the war and Nazi Germany.

Well done to the tens of thousands of English fans, whose exemplary behaviour after the team’s defeat did us all proud.

Well done lads, back again in four years time

@39 – my moment in the sun, indeed… Considering your accusation of my “constantly” dragging up references to Nazi Germany and the war, that’s a poor choice of phrase.

The only occasion for me to do so – in reference to the original post – was to refute your suggestion that talentless British hacks hadn’t already done so themselves. (“Return of Ze Black Shirts.”)

‘Germany over all,’ or whatever your translation was, is hardly any more bombastic than ‘Rule Britannia,’ which I heard England fans tastelessly and tunelessly singing (the “never will be slaves” line must have gone down well), or any other nationalistic bilge likely to induce vomiting.

Like I said – a footballing reference to the high probability that the German national side would beat England’s. Which they comprehensively did, thank fuck…

J, your black shirt articles in the British Press happened fourteen years ago. You “sang” the Nazi version of the German national anthem, two days ago.

You might not think it was the Nazi version and you might think it is only like singing Rule Britannia… but the post war Governement of Germany disagrees with you.

Positives
Maybe it is a wake up call to the FA to look at the Dutch model of teaching kids football and the fans have been brilliant. No segregation at the game yesterday

Negatives
When, when are the idiotic pundits and press journalists are going to stop building up a bunch of competent but not brilliant footballers, only to savage them when they obviously cannot be as good as the top foreigners. They are the real vile creatures in the debacle. Listen to the braying idiots of talktory, sorry talksport and you will not exactly what is wrong with English football and perhaps the English nation

sorry
you will know

Rhys I think they are a bunch of brilliant footballers and I’ve seen them do brilliant things.

As far as playing for England is concerned, they’re a bunch of brilliant but can’t be arsed footballers

Terry
They look good in an entertaining but technically lacking kick and rush league by good foreigners who provide the telling passes and create the space.
England has always been a technically deficient nation.
We have never beaten a top 15 side in the knock out stages of the world cup away from these shores since 1950

Just a word about the misconceptions of the Deutschlandlied.

The song starting with “Germany, Germany over everything in the world” was written with an eye on the political situation in the first half of the 19th century, when Germany did not exist. Instead, we were divided into 20 different Kingdoms, and the populace, led by the students, demanded all were united to one.

This is why “Deutschland (The country of all that is German) über alles”: Above all those kings and their particular, often financial, interests.

The reason why after the second world war the first stanza was excluded is not the “Germany over everything” part, it is this one:

Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt

The allies had decided to take these regions from Germany, and short of starting another war, there was nothing we could do about this. (BTW, the “polish” players Klose and Podolski are from the Memel, so to speak, which now happens to be in Poland)

As we were in no condition to fight yet again, and as the political situation after WWII (=> cold war) made quick alliances necessary, there was no way for us to object or let people, both inside and outside Germany, think we would eventually go back to demanding these areas back. German politicians still unilaterally abide by this policy.

The seconds stanza was culled from the anthem for being undignified. It says something like: “There is nothing better in the world than German women and German wine, let’s party.”
After all, this song was written by students, what do you expect?

Leaving the third:

Unity, and law, and freedom
for the German fatherland,
Let us all work towards this goal,
brotherly, with heart and hand.
Unity, and law, and freedom,
are the guarantee for happiness.
Flower in this shine of this happiness,
Flower, German fatherland.

And a word about racism: “Disliking a nation” is the very definition of racism. After all, I am not not a nice person, just because I am German, and you happen to “dislike the nation” of Germany.

Whos laughing now?

Thank you, JBHawk, for a most informative post, and for clearing up the misunderstanding surrounding the Deutschlandlied.

For the record, one of the reasons I’m supporting Germany in this World Cup is because I absolutely love the place. I’ve been several times and always enjoyed myself immensely.

(Still never been to Berlin, which I regret…)

Also because there is a great deal of outdated and absurd prejudice in this country, some of which is (unfairly) directed against the German people…

@48 – well, I’m still laughing.

JB Hawk, thanks for the explanation.

I’m really pleased to read that the ‘uber alles’ version isn’t an insulting reference to Nazi Germany. I’ve spent some time in Germany and I’m obviously over sensitive when comes to Brits dragging up events that happened decades before they were born.

My friend went to the match and said it was a sea of red and white. There was no segregation and no trouble, despite going out to the team that always seems to do it to us.

Can you explain why there were only 2k German fans there? Jeez, if we had a team like yours, there’d be no one left in England.

With depressing predictability, our newspapers and TVs were not covered with the imagery of England fans peacefully going home after crashing out of the world cup.

Despite losing to our greatest rival; despite being an un-segregated game; and despite the England fans massively outnumbering the opposition’s: there was no trouble in South Africa. This exemplary behavior was echoed throughout the pubs and parks of England, where tens (100s?) of thousands accepted defeat with disappointment and good grace.

The BBC chose to show the briefest footage of 150 England fans staying behind in SA to build a changing room for SA orphans. This building will mean the kids can now compete in their local league. The image of an English flag flying from the scaffolding of an orphanage in a South African township presented a wonderful counter icon to those who disgracefully attempt to associate it with right wing groups.

It’s a shame that this journalistic duality hasn’t been exposed by LC.