If you can’t be hilarious racist when talking about football, when can you be?

I think he sums up the typical Mail reader.

A complete Tosser.

Are you sure it wasn’t from Nick Cohen, Matt, cjcjc, damon or any other right wing nut jobs

Look now there is right government in power the press and.
the blogoshhere need hates figures.
Blacks, gays, labour councils, single mothers and the unemployed.
That is how the right operates.
If you want to see next week hates figures read Cohen’s standpoint magazine.
All journalists are right wing racist c***s. Hopefully the internet will put the bastards on the dole.

Can we drop the cunts if we’re trying not to be sexist? Or at least throw in the odd creative bit of knob-rottery or similar as balance?

Daily Mail readers refuse to acknowledge the TV’s off switch. If you don’t want to watch Ghana play Serbia don’t watch it.

Yes a poor joke, in very poor taste.

He should have expressed a desire to go back in time and assassinate their leaders, that would have been much more hilarious.

The fat fuck can’t even get his arse off the couch and do something else (ie hang himself) instead of watching football matches he’s not interested in.

@ 4 How is that any more/less rational than the left’s hate figures (Car drivers, “the rich”, meat eaters, christians, nuclear families, anyone claiming to be English, men generally) ? Power operates on in/out groups when exercised by the right or the left

As to the letter, the bloke is from Yeovil, what do you expect ?

If anyone reading this has said, in public or in private company, that the Welsh are sheep shaggers (or even laughed at a joke incorprotating it) then they are just as racist and xenophobic as Mike Phelps.

Allow me to translate comment 9 into English:

“@ 4 How is that any more/less rational than the left’s hate figures (strawmen, “rich strawmen”, meaty strawmen, strawmen, strawman families, anyone claiming to be strawmen, strawmen generally) ?”

There’s a difference between cracking some clichéd minorly racist joke that no-one really finds funny, and taking the trouble to put it in a letter to the Daily Mail – and for the the DM to publish it – and for the DM readers to have a proper chuckle over it. Morons.

I think the right-whingers on this thread have forgotten two things.

One, that this was probably made up by the Daily Mail staff writer, not a letter sent in at all and two, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoglB5NRxTo

Left hate figures
Car drivers, “the rich” meat eaters, christians, nuclear families, anyone claiming to be English, men generally
Maybe the rich (although I am not anti but would like to them to pay more tax), , but most lefties in England are car drivers, meat eaters, christains, we are English and half of us are men.

Why am I doing this? Anyway…

it doesn’t really matter who wrote the bloody letter, it’s still crapulous DM fodder;

and if some people think that this blog’s exposure of its crapulosity is yet another example of liberal dastardliness, they need to get out more.

The comments under this item, perhaps throughout this blog, are mainly crap IMHO.

@ 14 Lefties are hypocrites, it’s perfectly consistent in their minds to drive cars, eat meat, send kids to private school, join BUPA, fly on holiday, hold shares etc whilst loudly and publicly declaring other people who do this to be morally flawed.

” Lefties are hypocrites,,, ” BLAH BLAH BLAH.

And so our all Conservatives who use the National health service. And any Conservative who takes any form of Unemployment or welfare or sends their kids to state school.

Stop Press….. Tory trolls invade to defend the Mail. Same as it ever was.

Sally – If they’ve paid taxes for public services, why is it hypocritical to use them ?

“If anyone reading this has said, in public or in private company, that the Welsh are sheep shaggers (or even laughed at a joke incorprotating it) then they are just as racist and xenophobic as Mike Phelps.”

But, what if you’re welsh?

Also, you think there’s no grey area? Just racist and not racist?

So makers of Welsh Jokes, Mike Phelps and Eugene Terre’Blanche are all as racist as each other?

Matt Munro, you’re wrong, again, and you still don’t understand a fig about climate change.

Nick Cohen @3. You are what’s wrong with the left it seems.
You haven’t said much of note yourself from what I can see – just defending that useless PC kind of leftist view where everyone who doesn’t agree is some kind of Pinochet supporter.

You probably want Diane Abbott for Prime Minister.

Why am I doing this? Anyway…

I was wondering the same thing.

Lefties are hypocrites, it’s perfectly consistent in their minds to drive cars, eat meat, send kids to private school, join BUPA, fly on holiday, hold shares etc whilst loudly and publicly declaring other people who do this to be morally flawed.
We all morally flawed and we are certainly all hypocrites (right or left)/
Most of us don’t send our kid to private shools, or join BUPA and most of us are share owners because of our pensions.

Nick Cohen @3. You are what’s wrong with the left it seems.
Maybe that true but Damon your everything that is wrong with the right. Bigotted and narrow minded.

You haven’t said much of note yourself from what I can see – just defending that useless PC kind of leftist view where everyone who doesn’t agree is some kind of Pinochet supporter.
That makes two of us Damon

You probably want Diane Abbott for Prime Minister.
No Alan Johnson , then I suppose Burnham.
I you have read some of my posts I don’t think much of abbott or livingstone

I hadn’t really noticed you that much Nick Cohen untill you came up with that anti-working class ”right wing lorry driver” and Pinochet jibe. Because I had speculated that there could have been more than just pure homophobia in the story about the Labour LGBT activists.
That’s all I did, speculated that sometimes groups with an agenda like that might go looking for offence, and when finding it making the most of it.

On topic …… do they still make Um Bongo juce drinks? Someone needs to make a fuss about this travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYj5o4kQsXs

Fuckin racist BNP guy, we should skin him and roll him in acid. Then chop his head off and use it as a football. Then burn him. That’ll teach him not to hate.

Mmm, so is the writer ‘racist’ in a hates black people sort of way (as evidenced by his use of ‘Bongo Bongoland’) or ‘racist’ in a hates white, fair-haired, high-cheekboned people (as evidenced by his reference to ‘the Soviet Republic of Bulimia’)?

Or, maybe, not really racist at all?

@Flowerpower,

Indeed, racism and anti-communism are entirely mutually exclusive.

The occasional departure of sense of humour and perspective from political commentators has often been commented upon, but rarely satisfactorily explained…

It’s the Daily Mail for God’s sake. It exists to let those holding this archaic sort of vaguely humourous (in the same way as I recognise Ben Elton as vaguely humourous) viewpoint to actually have a mouthpiece. There are plenty of people in this country still mentally in the 1950s or whenever, just like there are plenty of people mentally in the 1970s fighting the same old political battles. But to start trying to make a fuss about their letters is just ridiculous – they’ll just write straight back accusing you (and me, if I have to take sides) of being ‘multicultural’ or ‘politically correct’.

Amyway, even neglected musical instruments have a right to a homeland…

LO,

“Indeed, racism and anti-communism are entirely mutually exclusive.”

Erm, maybe the point here was that the letter writer was being racist about two different sorts of people (or probably none at all in his own opinion – he would probably say racism involved disliking people of different race not making up silly names for countries). I don’t think the Former Soviet Republic of Bulimia is actually Communist anymore. The former (which flowerpower left off, but which I presume you read above) was a clue I thought…

Watchman,

I think you’re mistaken.

Bongo Bongoland is a racist term, not everyone using it will be racist, but its unmistakebealy racist. You might get away with it at a push, if ironic or particularly witty, mike is not.

There’s no hint of racism about the presumably white people of the soviet republic of bulimia (What about those Asian Communists? Nevermind). Discussing it in terms of possible racism is a red herring, a way to derail the conversation onto something along the lines of “Yeah yeah… but black people are racist too!”

I honestly didn’t pick up that there was a possibility someone could think Mike Phelps was being racist against white people, you have to have some odd priorities and assumptions to even see it in those terms. Its been circa 30 comments and I don’t think anyone else did.

LO,

flowerpower said it, not me, but I would say that rather than implicit racism, the letter shows a view of the world formed out of charactures perhaps themselves informed by what is now seen a racism. To accuse someone of actual racism simply because they chose a silly name for a fictional country (which we assume because of the name is located in Africa? Note we read this – it was never written) is dangerously like thought crimes.

What flowerpower picked up on was the fact the focus of this thread was on one of the two imaginary constructs in the letter, and that the other characterisation was being ignored; that is to say characterisations of Mr Phelps as a racist were based on selective reading of the evidence available.

I am not saying Mr Phelps is not racist (his worldview as expressed through humour does not suggest he is a regular contributor here, to put it mildly), but I argue that claiming someone is racist for using a name for a fictional country that is in itself not associated with racism against any group (or have a missed some significance of the term Bongo-bongoland?), and which therefore is not offensive to anyone who is not seeking to be offended is irresponsible. Racism is offensive and wrong; this was just stupid and unfunny. If being that becomes racist, it becomes easier to accept racism and harder to actual deal with the real thing.

To accuse someone of actual racism simply because they chose a silly name for a fictional country (which we assume because of the name is located in Africa? Note we read this – it was never written) is dangerously like thought crimes.

Oh, come off it – “Bongo Bongo land” is right out of the same file as “fuzzy-wuzzy”, “nig-nog” and “jungle-bunny”. He didn’t just make it up, it is a long-established piece of classically racist language dating back to (at least) the turn of the fucking 20th century. It’s the sort of thing my grandfather used to say. In fact, I’m 99.999% certain that he did say it on more than one occasion…

Next week: was The Black and White Minstrel Show really racist, or just a bit of harmless fun?

He might not be racist, but what he said was racist.

There’s a distinction there which is important. Would you dispute the above (Watchman and Flowerpower, and anyone really)?

Flowerpower was being disingenous in my view by conflating an actually existing racist phrase, with something (SR of B) that was not in order to derail the thread.

Flowerpower was being disingenous in my view by conflating an actually existing racist phrase, with something (SR of B) that was not in order to derail the thread.

Or he was being disingenous by conflating an actually existing non-racist phrase, with something (Bongo bongo land) that was, in order to show his opinion.

Dave,

“Or he was being disingenous by conflating an actually existing non-racist phrase, with something (Bongo bongo land) that was, in order to show his opinion.”

The phrase he conflated was from the same source, the letter that is at the top of the article…

I think his point is valid, but a lot of people cannot read beyond their rage at ‘racism’ when they get to Bongo Bongo and forget to finish the letter. At least that might explain why people miss flowpower’s point about that not being the whole content of the letter.

More to the point, Bongo Bongo has to be offensive to be racist (as opposed to sad and dated). Who is actually offended by it, as opposed to either angered at the perceived racism or saddened by the ignorance (I’m the second since you’re not interested…)? It is possible to write a dated and stupid satire of Africa (and please note, it is me, not the writer of the letter, assuming Africa) without being racist.

Dunc,

‘”Oh, come off it – “Bongo Bongo land” is right out of the same file as “fuzzy-wuzzy”, “nig-nog” and “jungle-bunny”. ‘

Dunc. All of those are references to people, not imaginary countries. If I (having done a quick bit of research) like the late unlamented Alan Clarke felt the need to tell people to go back to Bongo Bongo land, I would indeed using the term in a racist fashion because I would be offensively assuming that all immigrants or whoever could be grouped like that. However, to use the term without referring to a group of people is not in itself racist, since there is no-one to be racist about.

I don’t doubt the millieux of the term is potentially racist. I don’t doubt that the writer may, but equally may not, actually use the terms from the file. My point is that you cannot say the writer uses Bongo Bongo land in a racist way from the evidence of the letter, which is (as the reference to a country called Bulimia may indicate) equally likely to be ironic. The writer just seems to have different standards of acceptablity from us, but using Bongo Bongo land, like Alan Clarke, does not mean a priori the writer would think it right to use racist abuse, like Alan Clarke.

Mind you, apparently Bongo Bongo is a boss in Legend of Zelda (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Bongo_Bongo), a Caribeen bungalow (http://www.bongobongostjohn.com/) and is considered acceptable as a charity motto by Kona bikes’ charitable arm (http://www.konaworld.com/teams.cfm?content=bongo). Not sure any of these are over suggestive the term is outright racist, but who knows.

To summarise, I don’t see using Bongo Bongoland as racist. Possibly stupid; certainly outdated, but not in itself racist. Racism is a deliberate action, and by making the choice of a name with some racist associations to be racism in itself, you actually make the threat of racism sound less.

God knows how I got into this, since I think it was a stupid thing to write. But as I’ve said before, that’s Daily Mail readers for you…

Dunc

He didn’t just make it up, it is a long-established piece of classically racist language dating back to (at least) the turn of the fucking 20th century. It’s the sort of thing my grandfather used to say.

Are there no places on earth that some Boris Johnson type character can describe as having a backward culture these days?

http://www.amazon.com/Kabul-Winter-Without-Peace-Afghanistan/dp/0805078843

Ninety-five percent of Afghan women are subject to violence: they are bought and sold, beaten and raped, preyed upon and betrayed by their own flesh and blood.

@ 19 “Matt Munro, you’re wrong, again, and you still don’t understand a fig about climate change.”

Good points well made ! I’m guessing you were just back from the pub when you posted

@ 22 “most of us are share owners because of our pensions”.

Thats a capitalist myth to make you all think the stock market matters, so you’ll object less when you have to bail it out.
Th reality is fewer than 25% of the population have any kind of investment connected to the stock market

I genuinely love watching all football games.

If Mike Phelps and the PC brigade want to BAN me from watching games that aren’t English, then this just shows how much for a joke Broken Britain has become under the rule of David CONeron.

(It’s OK, I’m reclaiming political correctness and baseless winging for the left)

Are there no places on earth that some Boris Johnson type character can describe as having a backward culture these days?

Yes, about Northern Ireland. They seem a bit backward, 17th century
Also most of you right wingers want us to take us back to the 18th century.
Lefties want to take us back to sixties.

I love the idea that the normally erudite Watchman does not think the statement is racist.
What if a paper had written teams from jewland
Litmus test ; Go into a bar full of west indians and say they are from bongo bongo land.

I like @39′s idea. Though I prefer CamerWRONG to CONeron… It’ll be this government’s ZaNu Lie-bour! *weeps*

Well at least Watchman is awake.

Fact is Mr Phelps made TWO sneering/disobliging references about foreigners: one about black foreigners; another about white ones.

However, the indignation of LibCon posters has been (as reflected in the headline) solely about the remark about black foreigners. The sneer at Slavs is ignored.

In a sense, the anti-Slav remark is worse: Bongo Bongoland doesn’t actually mean anything…. and the only thing it suggests is drums; bulimia, on the other hand conjures up images of vomiting.

Isn’t the partiality nature of the LibCon reflex knocking at the door of ….er….something a bit like institutional racism itself?

(Bongo Bongoland will be familiar to anyone acquainted with the Alan Clark diaries.)

Whats it called when someone is non-racially xenophobic but only towards minor footballing nations? Phelpsism?

@Matt Munro

Possibly…

And your next comment made me laugh!

Anyway, Flowerpower,

He led with racism, against bongoite, and followed it up by vague anti-communism.

The Soviet Republic of Bulimia isn’t a racial epithet, its a crude anti-communist one. Most people here are anti-communist. That’s a good thing in your book surely?

Prejudice against races bad; prejudice against Marxist Leninism okay, no? That’s why one was highlighted and the other not.

Like I said, disingenuous, because he wasn’t being racist against whites or slavs. I’ve reread your comments and I can’t see how you can equate the phrases.

Left Outside @ 44

and followed it up by vague anti-communism

As Watchman has already pointed out to you @28, this has nothing to do with ‘anti-communism’ as Mr Phelps originally used the phrase “former soviet republic”, i.e. relating to the post-communist phase. Indeed, Phelps makes clear his targets are contemporary – imaginary teams in the current World Cup. His sneer was therefore ethnic, not political.

Litmus test ; Go into a bar full of west indians and say they are from bongo bongo land.

Are you suggesting that ”west indians” are violent of something Nick Cohen?
Do you still call black British people ”west indians”?

In my opinion, saying Bongo Bongoland is a pretty stupid thing to say, but I’m never going to get so worked up about it as people like Nick Cohen does.
He calls my kind of liberalism ”right wing” while I think his is just PC and way too ridgid.

Now Here’s an Idea

Dear Daily Mail,

Wouldn’t it be great if the Daily Mail letters page was only open to people from London and the other metropolises where human beings tend to interact with others from outside their own monomorphic gene pools.

Then we would be spared the ordeal of having to read the verbal diarrhea of inbred simpleton cretins from west country backwaters like Incester or Marriage upon Sister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYj5o4kQsXs&feature=player_embedded

how utterly racist

There is a region in Ghana called Bongoland.
Why do so many so called liberals get so worked up at comments which I doubt would cause offense in Africa. One of the key principles of liberalism is free speech, one has a right to be offended, one does not have a right not to be offended.

@ 49

indeed, Bongoland the movie – wrtitten, produced and directed by Josiah Kibira

http://www.eastafricantube.com/media/12103/BONGOLAND_-_The_movie_Trailer/

But I don’t suppose Phelps knows or cares.