Israel’s biggest enemy is itself


by Flying Rodent    
3:31 pm - May 31st 2010

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Jesus facepalming Christ. Let’s say you were a cartoonish, Ahmadinejadesque lunatic fixated on destroying Israel.

How would you go about achieving your goal?

Well, priority number one would be to isolate the Israelis from their allies, so they have no diplomatic or military cover.

A good start would be to take actions that infuriate military partners like the Turks by killing a load of Turkish civvies, then telling them to fuck off by pretending that the civvies you killed deserved it.

You’d definitely want to sabotage relations with allies like Greece, so that they’d withdraw from joint military operations and bar your military leaders from the country.

You’d want to blacken the Israelis’ image by finding as much video footage as possible of exploded children and Merkava tanks doing donuts in the rubble of civilian housing, preferably from insane, murderous, indefensible and counterproductive wars.

You’d want to rile up Israel’s enemies by marching the Israeli military into conflicts in Lebanon that they can’t win so that they look much weaker than they are, and you’d want to destroy the reputation of Israel’s special forces. At least since the raid on Entebbe, Israeli special forces have looked courageous and invincible – getting some good footage of them blowing away a load of civvies in a clusterfuck operation would be propaganda gold.

Plus, you’d want to isolate the country from the United States by blowing up a load of pointless political pissfights that gain Israel nothing and damage its supporters as badly as possible.

The Israelis don’t need the US to give them every item of military hardware excepting nukes and aircraft carriers, but trying to fund that stuff out of general taxation rather getting them for free would be much more difficult.

In short, you’d want to make Israel look like a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out, so that the entire planet disowns them by, for example, withdrawing their ambassadors and issuing a barrage of denuncations.

This, I contend, is the actual policy of the Israeli political class, and I’m now certain that the Israeli government is packed to the hoop with Iranian sleeper agents.

Short of handing Syrian intelligence the launch codes to their nuclear arsenal, I really can’t think of any way in which the Israeli political class could do their country more harm.

It’s been clear for years that the Israeli right is utterly dependent on the looniest fringe of Palestinian society for their power and legitimacy, and that both sets of nutters use violence against the other as a means to cementing their rule.

The basic situation over there is that both Hamas and the Israeli government are committed to policies that harm their populations but ensure their own continued rule. It’s a godawful, mutual death spiral that’s heading in precisely the wrong direction.

Shorter – there really is an urgent and perilous threat to Israel. It’s called “the Israeli government”.

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About the author
Flying Rodent is a regular contributor and blogs more often at: Between the Hammer and the Anvil. He is also on Twitter.
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Reader comments


Of course, there was nothing particularly unusual about the Qibya massacre in October 1953 by the Israeli Commando Unit 101 inder the cammand of Ariel Sharon. There were many other massacres before and since.

In April 1948 there had been massacre at Deir Yassin:
http://www.deiryassin.org/mh2001.html

“The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1779713.stm

And try this report on the Khiam Prison in South Lebanon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1002463.stm

I just absolutely despair.

Despair?

Try: Jews for Justice for Palestine:
http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=9

you’d want to make Israel look like a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out

I think that’s called showing one’s true colours.

The basic situation over there is that both Hamas and the Israeli government are committed to policies that harm their populations but ensure their own continued rule.

Indeed. They are both scum.

I think that’s called showing one’s true colours.

I hate to break this to you, but that’s actually for real the image that the Israelis have been projecting to the world for most of the decade. If you want to see what I mean, watch the footage from the Lebanon war with the sound turned off. Without the rah-rah, it’s all bashed-up mums hugging their hysterical kids, men howling in front of the rubble of their houses etc. That kind of thing tends to make an impression on an audience.

I wish none of this were the case, but it is.

I love the way an execution commando is talked about in terms of Israel’s PR image. I suppose that’s just the media’s line: What does this do to Israel’s image, rather than: 10-20 people executed on ship.

As long as Israel is pr4otected by America they can do what they like.

This article has been up for 3 hours now, and no one has rolled out the accusation that the article is anti-semitic. What’s happened? I normally find that all critiques of actions of the state of Israel are very quickly dismissed with this phrase, and in effect puts the state of Israel beyond any accountability.

As long as Israel is continually protected by America they can do what they like. America will not say no to Israel, and so Israel continues to push the boundaries of what it can do. And what it can do is almost anything at the moment.

The pro Zionist newspapers will be trotting out the usual clap trap in tomorrows editions.

“This article has been up for 3 hours now, and no one has rolled out the accusation that the article is anti-semitic. What’s happened? ”

That has been my frequent experience in other online forums in the past but the mounting documentation of Israeli atrocities going back to the 1940s is now better collected and posted. Besides, Jews for Justice for Palestine gives the lie to claims that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

11. DisgustedOfTunbridgeWells

I love the way an execution commando is talked about in terms of Israel’s PR image. I suppose that’s just the media’s line: What does this do to Israel’s image, rather than: 10-20 people executed on ship.

A line particularly prevalent, as you’d perhaps expect, in the NY times.

Monday night hot news update:

WASHINGTON – US President Barack Obama spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Monday after the latter cancelled a planned Oval Office meeting scheduled for Tuesday.

During their 15-minute conversation, Obama conveyed his understanding for Netanyahu’s decision to return immediately to Israel from Canada and not stop in Washington following the deadly clash between the IDF and activists trying to break the Gaza blockade earlier in the day.
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=177041

13. Just Visiting

Flying Rodent.

I’m wondering actually if the MSM are actually not playing a (dangerous) role here too – as they seem to have taken sides in chosing not to report what Al Jazeera’s film showed – that the day before, the convoy were singing songs rejoicing in Mohammed’s killing of Jews:

And one women was interviewed saying ‘Right now we face one of two happy endings: either Martyrdom or reaching Gaza.”
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=676&fld_id=676&doc_id=2337

There remain IMHO questions as to why the convoy acted in the way they did – if their aim genuinely was purely to provide humanitarian aid.

If that was their aim – they have surely failed totally, and predictably.

If their aim was to generate anti-Israel sentiment around the world….well that does seem to have been successful.

If their aim was to generate anti-Israel sentiment around the world….well that does seem to have been successful…

Oh, the humanity! Things have come to a pretty pass when security forces can’t attack a ship flying the flag of their nearest ally – a member of NATO, no less – and shoot a lot of their citizens dead without having to answer a lot of impertinent questions. Hopefully the Israeli government will forgive the people they killed for their provocations.

This is a diplomatic disaster, coming from a political elite who have clearly lost the plot. Whether you think that media coverage of this utter clusterfuck is fair or not is neither here nor there.

15. Just Visiting

Flying Rodent

My question was about the intentions of the convoy – not about the right/wrongness of what Israel did.

By ducking that – am I to take it that you think the convoy’s aim was indeed PR and not humanitarian?

…am I to take it that you think the convoy’s aim was indeed PR and not humanitarian?

I imagine it was chiefly to show up the blockade, although I’m also certain that most of the people on board believed it was a humanitarian mission. I’d say that, if it was a PR scheme, it was a huge success. If you’d like to blame someone for that, I suggest you stop worrying about the press and lay it at the door of a Mr. N. Netanyahu and his pals.

Have you got any problems with the content of the post, or are we in OMG somebody smashed a window at Starbucks, ergo the REAL issue here is hey, look over there! territory, yet again?

A line particularly prevalent, as you’d perhaps expect, in the NY times.

Not to mention the BBC. Which is pretty bloody depressing.

18. Just Visiting

FR

Why be in such a hurry to discount discussion of the facts of what happened?

Surely whether what Israel did was right/wrong/stupid/smart depends on those facts?

Over on Pickled Politics, the discussion seems to have covered more factual ground.

It is being suggested that the IDF started with paintball guns, not real guns – and it was 30 minutes later that they used real guns – if true that DOES have a real bearing on your view as originally posted.

I quote:

“Supposedly it was not till 30 minutes into the raid that the sidearms, which had live ammunition, were used. according to the Israelis that was after two of their own had been shot and one stabbed. That’s their account, and so far we only have their word for it. The video evidence so far does, however, bear out the Israeli account of the initial boarding, and trashes the claims that their commandoes came down the ropes shooting people dead.”

Given the illegality, inhumanity and viciousness of the blockade… Um, who cares whether it was intended primarily as a PR exercise, or just to get aid in. Maybe it was both.

And now my question:
What has happened to your humanity when you consider that a reasonable, or relevant question after killing 15/16 people in an act of state terrorism/piracy?

20. Just Visiting

Olching (6)

Perhaps it is just as well the MSM did not use your line ’10-20 people executed on ship’.

As it appears that the facts msy br suggesting that the IDF only retaliated after several of their members were shot or stabbed – and had used paintball guns prior to that.

The discussion at Pickled Politics seems to have covered more factual detail of this event, than LC so far:
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/882

Why be in such a hurry to discount discussion of the facts of what happened?

Who’s discounting? I’m saying “this is a political, diplomatic and military disaster, perpetrated by idiots”. Your point is irrelevant, surely. Unless the Israelis find a nuke in the hull of one of those ships, they’re going to get their collars felt by all of their allies tomorrow and no amount of wavy-hands is going to change that.

Tell you what – you could hang on until somebody puts up a post called “How much did these people deserve to be shot to death – a bit or lots?”, if you like.

22. Just Visiting

Ok, so does this mean that there are no circumstances in which Israel is permitted to shoot back?

(Because shooting back always has the risk of killing people?)

Would instead, you have advised that the IDF should have retreated immediately when their 3 colleagues were wounded — and taken them with them?

I kind of like that idea myself.

But then I wonder – what about if retreat would have meant leaving the wounded guys?

@Just Visiting – if the IDF did start the raids with their pistols holstered and with paintball guns only, that shows that Israel didn’t believe the convoy represented a serious threat. In which case, *why the fuck did they send armed commandos to board it in international waters*?

…does this mean that there are no circumstances in which Israel is permitted to shoot back?

No, it doesn’t mean that at all and you’d have to be suffering from inflammation of the brain to decide that that it does.

I’m happy to clear up these questions, but really, do you have a problem with anything I’ve said here? I’m happy to clarify but I really don’t care for swatting away weak innuendo as a pastime.

25. Just Visiting

John B

Who else is good at shinning down ladders from choppers, don’t think the local coast guard/border police would have been a smart choice?!

But I’m not sure if anyone has reported yet whether coast-guard/border police or etc were also part of the team; so maybe I’m wrong and they were there…

26. Just Visiting

Flying Rodent 24

Ok, that first line was a rhetorical question.
What about the rest of what I wrote?

Given all the lies that the IDF and Israel have told about their actions over the past few years, what sensible person would believe their version of events on anything? Time and time again they’ve been shown to blatantly lie, and to cynically try and cover up their actions. And we’re supposed to believe this pathetic story about paintball guns? For real?

Maybe they could add some other details, like all they wanted to do was to have cake? Or how they came skipping onto the ship with ribbons in their hair. I mean all they wanted was someone to play paintball with. For the love of God, what kind of a world have we created where a bunch of commandos can’t just board a random ship and force the crew to play paintball? Is that too much to ask?

THEY BOARDED A SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS. That’s piracy. You’re allowed to try and repel pirates. End of story.

28. Just Visiting

Cian 27

So you advocate a policy of ‘guilty until proved innocent’.

You better have a chat with the law in England and Wales – because we have it the other way round.

The only rational approach is to look at the facts, as they come out, for this particular event.

I notice you don’t comment on the Al Jazeera footage – which seems to me to represent a significant fact.

@25 no, you’re missing the point. The only excuse for boarding the ships (whether you use IDF commandos, coastguard or the Scouts) is if you think they’re smuggling bombs and/or terrorists, in which case you tear-gas them and enter using maximum force – real guns and real shooting.

If, on the other hand, you think they’re a harmless bunch of hippies bringing in aid, which would be the only reason to tell your commandos to use paintball guns, then you don’t board the ships *at all*, because the only reason to do so is sheer cock-waving counterproductive insanity.

@27 the thing here is, Israel’s actions are unjustifiable *even if you accept the IDF statement*. While I share your scepticism, it doesn’t matter.

Let’s cut the crap and get to the point, shall we? Israel isn’t going to stop it’s present path of behaviour unless and until that path becomes seriously damaging to it. The most feasible way to do this would be international sanctions against Israel, by major economies such as Britain, other EU countries, Turkey, etc.

Therefore the best way to proceed would be a campaign to ask the UK government to apply sanctions to Israel and to co-ordinate those sanctions with other countries. A good start would be sporting, cultural and academic measures, but full trade sanctions would obviously be better. (I’ve recently reposted one of my old posts describing what sort of sanctions against Israel would be most effective).

The best people to lead such a campaign might be 38 degrees. Obviously it would make sense to sideline the likes of George Galloway, Respect, the SWP, or anyone linked to Hamas, because they would tend to make the campaign less effective.

JustVisiting:

Are you seriously trying to claim that unarmed people shouting and singing songs constitute a military threat to Israel? That really barely merits a response. The fact is that what the Israeli government didn’t like was not the risk of Gazans’ ears being soiled by such terrible obscenities, but the risk of Gazans eating food.

As for your point about it being a ‘PR operation’ (i.e. a protest): it’s a complete non-sequitur. Why does it matter if it was? Do you really think it is somehow less bad for Israel to be seen killing people for highlighting the existence of the food blockade, than killing people for trying to violate the food blockade?

Besides, the food in the boat appears to be real. Whether the people carrying it seriously expected to be able to feed anyone or not, the fact is that the Israeli army has been deployed to violently prevent real food reaching real hungry people. For most people outside your bubble of double-think, that highlights that something is seriously wrong with the people giving orders to the Israeli army.

32. Andy Burnham

Who cares?

They’re only foreignors and foreignors, as everybody knows, are all potential immigrants.

Coming over here.

Pinching our benefits.

The less of them the better I say.

@Justvisiting:

Nonsense, absolute nonsense.

I really hope you are in no position of power, because if you think Israel’s response was proportional, then heaven forbid if you ever had to manage a demonstration or large crowds (shoot them all! They started!).

So you advocate a policy of ‘guilty until proved innocent’.

You better have a chat with the law in England and Wales – because we have it the other way round.

Pathetic.

1) I didn’t say they were guilty, I said I didn’t believe their account. Even in a court of law there is no requirement to believe a defendant’s account.

2) I am not operating a court of law, and even in England you can assume anything you like about a defendant’s guilt, or innocent, outside a court of law.

Thanks for playing, though.

The only rational approach is to look at the facts, as they come out, for this particular event.

Which is nice, but given that the Israelis have lied after every incident of this type since at least the second Infitada I think that their spokesman’s descriptions of events are better treated as fiction. Proven liars do not have the right to be believed.

I notice you don’t comment on the Al Jazeera footage – which seems to me to represent a significant fact.

Hardly. I’m assuming you don’t speak Arabic, I certainly don’t and the translation was provided by an Israeli propoganda outfit. So all it represents to me is a bunch of people singing.

But even if they were singing exactly what is claimed in the video, are you claiming that Israel has the right to commit acts of international piracy just because it doesn’t like the lyrics to some songs?

35. the a&e charge nurse

“there really is an urgent and perilous threat to Israel. It’s called “the Israeli government”.

I’m not so sure – if something goes on long enough then various observers eventually become habituated (in the same way that the latest death in Afghanistan barely makes page 5 of the local bugle nowadays).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3563349/The-weekend-on-television-The-Fallen-BBC2.html

Fact is there is ALWAYS some part of the world were it takes very little before political threats escalate to violence and killing.
Look at the Koreans squaring up to each other – the list of international adversaries is almost endless (and timeless).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10129703.stm

Is it your contention that this most recent episode has so fundamentally alienated Israel from potential allies that Hamas or other enemies in the region now have a golden opportunity to take Israel out while the USA, et al, stand by and watch – I doubt it somehow?

If you are arguing that more of the same (i.e. disproportionate violence) will take Israel down a diplomatic cul de sac then this position MIGHT be tenable, although should Israel promise to adopt a less aggressive posture then I dare say her traditional allies would soon overlook the latest killings simply because long term strategic goals almost always trump personal tragedy?

“Which is nice, but given that the Israelis have lied after every incident of this type since at least the second Infitada”

The systematic lying – and self-deception – started long before that: try Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall (Penguin Books, 2000) for an analysis.

Worth listening to Gerald Kaufman MP on Israeli policies for Gaza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

37. Charlie 2

36. Bob b . You ignore the Arab attacks on jewish settlements in the 30s , after all this was the reason for Orde Wingate setting up the various night patrols.

Israeli marines over reacted when they were attacked after boarding a ship. Seems both sides obtained what they wanted. The extremists on both sides use the actions of each otr to justify their own actions.

37: Oh yes, the “She was asking for it your honour” defence.

Has Israel ever used proportional force against non Jewish resistance? If not, why should we think things were different in this instance?

39. John Meredith

What’s this? The ‘insane, murderous’ Jews, er, sorry, ‘Zionists’, are their own worst enemy? Provoking the world with their blood-spilling, putting themselves beyond the pale until reasonable people are pushed, through exasperation, into searching for a solution? How reassuring in a changing world to find some things always remain the same.

40. FlyingRodent

Spit it out, Meredith. If you have something to say, say it and don’t just drop implications like a cowardly little arse.

In the news on Tuesday morning:

“Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.”
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

As Gerald Kaufman said in that speech in the House of Commons, the Israelis are behaving like Nazis.

42. John Meredith

“Spit it out, Meredith. If you have something to say, say it and don’t just drop implications like a cowardly little arse.”

I think my comment was admirably clear,although I would love to hear your frank views about those murderous ‘Zionists’.

By the way:

“Let’s say you were a cartoonish, Ahmadinejadesque lunatic fixated on destroying Israel. How would you go about achieving your goal?”

This is a funny sort of question because Ahmadenijad exists so we can just observe: the answer seems to be to build a nuclear weapon and to sponsor genocidally antisemitic movements in Palestine such as Hamas. Quite easy to understand, isn’t it? Much harder to have to construct a worldview whereby the jews, er ‘Zionists’ are secretly behind it?

BobB: No they’re not. They’re behaving like a militaristic bully, which is not the same thing at all.

44. John Meredith

“As Gerald Kaufman said in that speech in the House of Commons, the Israelis are behaving like Nazis.”

And out they crawl, right on cue.

45. FlyingRodent

I think my comment was admirably clear

It’s clear that you don’t have the stones to say what you mean, because you are a coward and a bullshitter. Say it in a sentence that starts with “You, sir, are an” and I’ll gladly respond to your points in very great, meticulous, highly sexualised and graphicly obscene terms. Continue to make snide implications and you can sling your hook.

Is Zionist a code word for Israelis now, John? I think murderous Israelis will do just fine.

Israel is a military super-power. Hamas is a bunch of thugs with Kalashnikovs. Only the the clinically paranoid could see that as an existential threat.

47. John Meredith

“It’s clear that you don’t have the stones to say what you mean”

I have said just what I mean (although I don’t think that tells you anything much about the size or even existence of my testicles), if there’s anything you don’t understand, please ask and I will elaborate.

48. John Meredith

“Israel is a military super-power.”

No it isn’t, it is a minor military power.

“Hamas is a bunch of thugs with Kalashnikovs. Only the the clinically paranoid could see that as an existential threat.”

They have the backing of the major regional power and would be an existential threat if they could be. You don’t have to believe that, you just have to acknowledge that reasonable people in Israel might. And anyway there are gradations between existential threat and intolerable threat that are significant. I wonder how many suicide bombings or missile attacks frojm a neighbouring state against your town/county/country you would consider acceptable each year?

49. FlyingRodent

if there’s anything you don’t understand…

I understand you perfectly, John. I’m asking you to do me the basic courtesy of making these serious accusations openly and honestly, and not by sniping from behind a hilariously obvious rhetorical duck-blind. This is the last time.

50. John Meredith

“I understand you perfectly, John. I’m asking you to do me the basic courtesy of making these serious accusations openly and honestly,”

If you understand me perfectly, I really see no good reason to repeat myself, although I didn’t make any ‘accusations’ so your understanding may not be as perfect as you believe. If you don’t want to discuss it further, that is fine by me. If you do, fine with me too.

Well I understand you as insinuating that Flying Rodent is an anti-semite. Somebody with a little more courage would say it straight, but I guess you are not that man.

52. John Meredith

“Well I understand you as insinuating that Flying Rodent is an anti-semite. Somebody with a little more courage would say it straight, but I guess you are not that man.”

Gosh, a high premium is placd on machismo round here isn’t it? I said what I said. I think that I fairly paraphrased the article. If you think that makes Flying Rodent an antisemite, that is your valuation not mine.

Israel is a minor military power compared to who exactly? Iran? Is that meant to be a serious argument?

I have to acknowledge that a “reasonable” person in Israel would consider Hamas an existential threat, because if Hamas had access to state of the art military hardware and training they could be really nasty to Israel?

Meanwhile in the real world Israel has state of the art tanks, aircraft, missiles, submarines, weapons, satellites, drones, helicopters, etc, etc.
Hamas have AK-47s and some kids with slingshots.

This “reasonable” person is in an assylum isn’t he…

I wonder how many suicide bombings or missile attacks frojm a neighbouring state against your town/county/country you would consider acceptable each year?

I dunno. I wonder what level and what length of military occupation/land theft you’d consider acceptable each year? Israel created the current situation, and only they can fix it. So I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy.

And again, what the hell has this got to do with commiting an act of piracy/war in international waters, and shooting people dead?

Gosh, a high premium is placd on machismo round here isn’t it?

You think courage is the same as machismo? Interesting.

I said what I said. I think that I fairly paraphrased the article. If you think that makes Flying Rodent an antisemite, that is your valuation not mine.

You didn’t fairly paraphrase the article. You attempted, rather ineptly, to twist his words into something else. Presumably because you were unable to engage with the substance of his post.

55. John Meredith

“Israel is a minor military power compared to who exactly? Iran? Is that meant to be a serious argument?”

I am not well up on these things but I think that it is generally accepted that Iran is a larger military power than Israel, yes. But the claim made was that Israel is a ‘military super-power’ and it isn’t.

“I have to acknowledge that a “reasonable” person in Israel would consider Hamas an existential threat, because if Hamas had access to state of the art military hardware and training they could be really nasty to Israel?”

Are you saying that all the Israelis who consider there to be an external existential threat to their country from Hmas and others are lying?

“Meanwhile in the real world Israel has state of the art tanks, aircraft, missiles, submarines, weapons, satellites, drones, helicopters, etc, etc.
Hamas have AK-47s and some kids with slingshots”

Hamas have murdered dozens of Israeli citizens through suicide bombing and misslie aattacks. You needn’t place much importance on that but you should acknowledge that an Israeli reasonably might.

56. FlyingRodent

I think that I fairly paraphrased the article.

John, you believe this because you are for real too stupid to read; too addled with silly horseshit to think and too dishonest to write a straightforward sentence. If you won’t stand behind your own statements, then feel free to take your obtuse little speculations somewhere with an audience gullible enough to swallow them.

57. John Meredith

“You didn’t fairly paraphrase the article. ”

You may not think so, that is fine, but we should discuss that disagreement reather thean swaggering about demanding that we compare the size of our balls.

I am curious how you characterise the claim that Israel acts like a ‘paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out, so that the entire planet disowns them’.

What IS it about Israelis that makes them want to ‘murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out’? Why are they such ‘racist freaks’? Why aren’t they more like other people?

58. John Meredith

**”You didn’t fairly paraphrase the article. ”

You may not think so, that is fine, but we should discuss that disagreement reather thean swaggering about demanding that we compare the size of our balls.

I am curious how you characterise the claim that Israel acts like a ‘paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out, so that the entire planet disowns them’.

What IS it about Israelis that makes them want to ‘murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out’? Why are they such ‘racist freaks’? Why aren’t they more like other people?

59. John Meredith

“If you won’t stand behind your own statements”

I did and do stand behind my statements. It is you who deemands that I say ssomething else more to your taste and then speculates about the size of my knackers when I just, well, stand behind my statement.

I think my paraphrasis captures the tone and content of your article pretty well. It is familar stuff and I doubt it will go away any time soon.

Iran has a larger army. Nobody thinks that its military is remotely comparable to Israel’s, except possibly in a landwar where numbers might count. Israel has one of the most powerful military forces in the world.

Compared to Hamas, Israeli is a military hyper-power.

Are you saying that all the Israelis who consider there to be an external existential threat to their country from Hmas and others are lying?

Oh no. They could simply be insanely paranoid. Both work.

Hamas have murdered dozens of Israeli citizens through suicide bombing and misslie aattacks. You needn’t place much importance on that but you should acknowledge that an Israeli reasonably might.

Yes you’ve changed subject again. We were talking about the existential threat posed by Hamas, not whether they could kill the odd Israeli. How exactly is this an existential threat?

Israel has killed hundreds of Palestinian civillians with missiles, tanks, helicopters and snipers. You needn’t place much importance on that but you should acknowledge that a Palestinian reasonably might.

How is any of this relevant to Israel commiting murderous acts of piracy again?

61. John Meredith

“Iran has a larger army. Nobody thinks that its military is remotely comparable to Israel’s, except possibly in a landwar where numbers might count. ”

I think Israel might be a tiny bit conccerned about a land war, don’t you?

“Oh no. They could simply be insanely paranoid. Both work.”

Your position is that all Israelis who believe the country faces real existential threats is either lying or delusional? What it is about Israelis that make them like this?

“Yes you’ve changed subject again. We were talking about the existential threat posed by Hamas,”

I was responding to yopur suggestion that Hamas were no therat to Israel because ehtir weapons were so puny. I note that you are reluctant to accord any morqal significance to killing Israeluis at all. What is it about Israelis that make them so worthless?

“Israel has killed hundreds of Palestinian civillians with missiles, tanks, helicopters and snipers. You needn’t place much importance on that but you should acknowledge that a Palestinian reasonably might.”

I place very high importance on that. I consider some of those deaths crimes, all of them tragedies. It is a pitty you cannot say the same about dead Israelis.

“How is any of this relevant to Israel commiting murderous acts of piracy again?”

You brought it up, you tell me. I don’t really understand this ‘piracy’ meme, by the way. Was the ship not attempting to enter Israeli waters? As I understand it the crew do not deny that that was their intention.

I note that you are reluctant to accord any morqal significance to killing Israeluis at all. What is it about Israelis that make them so worthless?

I note that you’re happy to allege, repeatedly, that the poster and other commenters don’t give damn about Jews being killed. And yet when asked whether you consider that they’re antimsemites, you say that that is not your valuation. That leaves two possibilities:
1. You believe it is possible to consider Jews worthless and expendable, without being an antisemite – i.e you’re a moron.
2. You’re a coward who won’t say what he means.

63. John Meredith

“I note that you’re happy to allege, repeatedly, that the poster and other commenters don’t give damn about Jews being killed. And yet when asked whether you consider that they’re antimsemites, you say that that is not your valuation.”

I just comment on what is there and don’t waste time pondering motivation too much. Cian seems to think it is pretty much OK to kill, as s/he says ‘the odd Israleli’ and by his her tone even seems to find it amusing. If you think that makes him/her an antisemite, well fair enough, but I’d rather not speculate.

Flying Rodent believes he can look into the hearts of ‘Zionists’ and see the delight in murder that lives there. Many others before him have felt the same, especially when it comes to ‘zionists’. But I don’t claim those sorts of powers.

I think Israel might be a tiny bit conccerned about a land war, don’t you?

From Iran? If you’re serious, then you’re really quite stupid (hint, look at the bloody map).

Your position is that all Israelis who believe the country faces real existential threats is either lying or delusional?

Given the facts of the situation what other conclusion can one draw. They don’t face any existential threats, so…

What it is about Israelis that make them like this?

Don’t know, don’t care.

I was responding to yopur suggestion that Hamas were no therat to Israel because ehtir weapons were so puny.

Err no, I said they weren’t an existential threat as you had apperently suggested. I mean Hamas aren’t even potentially genocidal unless they have the means, or are likely to access said means, with to carry out genocide.

I note that you are reluctant to accord any morqal significance to killing Israeluis at all. What is it about Israelis that make them so worthless?

Based upon what? My not commenting on it. Do you also note that I am relucant to accord any moral significance to killing Chechneyans? Or Indians? Or Russians. Because I haven’t commented on the moral significance of these either. How awful of me.

You brought it up, you tell me. I don’t really understand this ‘piracy’ meme, by the way. Was the ship not attempting to enter Israeli waters?

Gaza is not Israeli. So no, it wasn’t.

As I understand it the crew do not deny that that was their intention.

It was in international waters. Therefore its either piracy, or an act of war against Turkey. Intent doesn’t matter.

@John Meredith

I’ve read and re-read and re-re-read the OP and can’t for the life of me find a reference to “Zionists”, with or without the quotation marks. Your use of the word (and equating it with anti-Semitism by insinuation and snide innuendo) shows you up as the troll you most certainly are.

From Flying Rodent’s OP:

It’s been clear for years that the Israeli right is utterly dependent on the looniest fringe of Palestinian society for their power and legitimacy, and that both sets of nutters use violence against the other as a means to cementing their rule.

Tell me, what disagreement do you have with this statement? If you

66. FlyingRodent

Flying Rodent believes he can look into the hearts of ‘Zionists’ and see the delight in murder that lives there.

I find it difficult to believe you could be this stupid by accident, John. Nobody on this thread except for you has used the word “Zionist”. Even if I had said this, nowhere have I claimed to know what’s in “the hearts” or minds, or anything else for that matter, of “Zionists”.

You are telepathically reading racist intent into words that were never said in the first place. Have you suffered any serious head injuries recently? How many fingers am I holding up? (See below for answer).

(Answer – One).

*If you want to engage properly without resorting to mudslinging then focus on what the OP actually says, not what you think it says. Or what you think FR was “really” thinking.

[nb. @67 aimed at John Meredith btw]

69. John Meredith

“I mean Hamas aren’t even potentially genocidal unless they have the means, or are likely to access said means, with to carry out genocide.”

This is another verison of the ‘just because Hamas says it aims to murder all the Jews, that is no reason for Israel not to be nice to them’ argument and it is as baffling as ever. Are you suggesting that Israel should wait until Hamas has the means to perform its publicly declared intention to launch a genocidal attack on Israel before it responds to the threat? Do the murders of Israelis by Hamas in the meantime mean nothing? Why the double standard when it comes to Israel?

70. FlyingRodent

I just comment on what is there and don’t waste time pondering motivation too much. Cian seems to think it is pretty much OK to kill, as s/he says ‘the odd Israleli’ and by his her tone even seems to find it amusing.

Dude I’m amused by the suggestion that Israel faces an existential threat from Iran, or Hamas. Everything else is in your head, a place I don’t wish to speculate about.

Anyway, this “argument” has pretty much run its course. But if you could explain to me how using the phrase “odd Israeli” means that I think it is okay to kill people, I’d be much obliged.

72. John Meredith

“If you want to engage properly without resorting to mudslinging then focus on what the OP actually says”

I have. It says that Israelis are (or ‘act like’ which is a distinction without a difference) ‘belligerent … racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out’ and that because of this they alienate the community of nations and are their own worst enemies. The idea of the bloodthirsty Israelite whose acts push him so far outside of normal humanity that others are forced to retaliate is a familair one, isn’t it? I was just saying that it is reassuring to see that some things don’t change.

Of course Flying Rodent may say that he doesn’t really think that ‘racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out’ is a true characterisation of Israel, but I don’t think he will.

I just comment on what is there and don’t waste time pondering motivation too much.

Right, so you observe* that a particular poster believes that Jews are evil creatures whom it’s perfectly all right to kill, but you don’t follow that line of thought, through to conclude that they are an antisemite, because it would take you too long. That says a whole lot about your intellectual powers.

*i.e make up

This is another verison of the ‘just because Hamas says it aims to murder all the Jews, that is no reason for Israel not to be nice to them’ argument

No it really isn’t. But you’re right, it is baffling that you’d think so.

Are you suggesting that Israel should wait until Hamas has the means to perform its publicly declared intention to launch a genocidal attack on Israel before it responds to the threat?

Is there any danger that Hamas is going to acquire the means? [1]

Oh, and it shouldn’t destroy Palestinian hospitals, homes, power stations, chicken farms, schools and universities either. Unless the chickens are the existential threat?

Do the murders of Israelis by Hamas in the meantime mean nothing?

Yeah you’ve changed the subject again. We were talking about existential threats.

Why the double standard when it comes to Israel?

You mean that by applying the same standard to Israel that I apply to other states, I’m using a double standard… Sorry, you’ve lost me.

[1] Any answer other than ‘no’ will reveal you as a paranoid nutcase who knows nothing about the region. Fair warning and all.

The idea of the bloodthirsty Israelite whose acts push him so far outside of normal humanity that others are forced to retaliate is a familair one, isn’t it?

Ignoring your ludicrous characterisation of FR’s post for a moment.
No bloodthirstiness was not really an anti-semitic trope in Europe. Sorry about that.

76. John Meredith

“Is there any danger that Hamas is going to acquire the means?”

Yes there is.

77. John Meredith

“No bloodthirstiness was not really an anti-semitic trope in Europe.”

You don’t know about the ‘blood libel’? This was the claim that Jews were racist freaks who believed that they could murder Christian babies with impunity year-in year-out for the purposes of their secret rites and did so. Something had to be done.

78. FlyingRodent

It says that Israelis are (or ‘act like’ which is a distinction without a difference)

What the fuck are you talking about, John? We can all see the OP, so if you tell fibs about what it says,, we can see you doing it.. I wrote it, FFS. Do you think I’m going to forget what I said?

It clearly says that IF you were a nutter who wanted to destroy Israel, you WOULD IN THAT CASE try to make ISRAEL and not “Zionists” LOOK LIKE – i.e. “appear, to outside observers” – a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation that murders fuck out of civilians.

Do you see how that whole IF part is essential, if the comedy premise of the article is that the Israeli government are all Iranian spies? Did you read the comment upthread where I’ve already clarified that I’m talking about the image the Israelis project to the world, and not divining some inner psychosis through the use of chicken entrails?

Not even you are stupid enough to confuse this with a bald statement that “Zionists” love murder, even though you are by some distance one of the stupidest people I’ve ever encountered on the internet, outside Youtube comment threads on clips from Jackass .

You don’t know about the ‘blood libel’?

No actually I do. And here’s the thing. IT’S A DIFFERENT ANTI-SEMITIC TROPE YOU MORON. Ritually sacrificing babies; brutally boarding a ship. Kind of different. Even an idiot should be able to see that. At least learn the bullshit properly before launching into your idiotic troll sessions.

“Is there any danger that Hamas is going to acquire the means?”

Yes there is.

Go on…

81. John Meredith

“It clearly says that IF you were a nutter who wanted to destroy Israel, you WOULD IN THAT CASE try to make ISRAEL and not “Zionists” LOOK LIKE – i.e. “appear, to outside observers” – a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation that murders fuck out of civilians.”

Yes, I got that. Are you saying that the actions of the Israelis do not IN FACT make Israel appear to be like this? That it is a false impression? That Israel has not acted in a way to make it appear to be real? If not it is, as I said, a distinction without a difference. Will you now say that it is not true in your view that Israel is murderous, paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent and that it has ‘murdered fuck’ out of civilians year in year out with impunity?

82. John Meredith

“No actually I do. And here’s the thing. IT’S A DIFFERENT ANTI-SEMITIC TROPE YOU MORON.”

I am not going to argue with you over precisely which aantisemitic trope is being practised in the article, I am sure you know best. But your claim was that ‘bloodthirstiness was not really an anti-semitic trope in Europe’ and I simply gently pointed out to you that it was, so I don’t know why you are getting so indignant.

You mistake disbelief for indignant. I have trouble believing anyone could be as stupid as you. Apparently they can. Astonishing.

So we’ve established that
The idea of the bloodthirsty Israelite whose acts push him so far outside of normal humanity that others are forced to retaliate is a familair one, isn’t it?

is in actual fact not a familiar one. Bloody marvellous. Like blood from a stone… oh bugger it, that’s probably anti-semitic.

(going against my own rules of not debating with trolls, but still… I’m bored and it’s raining)

@John Meredith

The idea of the bloodthirsty Israelite whose acts push him so far outside of normal humanity that others are forced to retaliate is a familair one, isn’t it?

There have been and continue to be disgusting anti-Semitic memes throughout history, but the point that you utterly fail to understand is that: criticism of Israel (or the Israeli Government’s actions, to clarify) does not = anti-Semite. You might think so in your topsy-turvy world where armed commandos can freely shoot-to-kill people on boats in international waters, that is your prerogative. But at least be honest about it. You claim to engage with the article yet cherry-pick and deliberately misquote certain sections to fit your own crazed belief. You fail to recognise that Israel’s government bombing and shooting and maiming civilians (of other nationalities than just Palestinian) does not reflect well on it – just as the actions of Hamas or other lunatic groups does not reflect well on the Palestinian cause.

Don’t you get it yet? Extremists on both sides are to blame for this conflict. And as one lot of the extremists is backed by most Western democracies it seems fair that they take criticism for their illegal actions.

As an aside, it does bore the shit out of me that everytime someone mentions that the Israeli gov might have done something wrong some silly bugger pops up and starts shouting “anti-Semite!” (or in JM’s case slyly poisons the well with more measured language). It’s like saying criticism of Iran is the same as being Islamophobic, and is not only an insiduous way of shutting down argument but it is insulting to real victims of anti-Semitism throughout history.

86. FlyingRodent

Are you saying that the actions of the Israelis do not IN FACT make Israel appear to be like this?

I regret to inform you John that yes, the Israelis do in fact look paranoid, bloodthirsty etc. to onlookers. That tends to be the unfortunate effect of bombing and killing people, both belligerents and innocents, from high altitude over a number of years – you can only have so many TV news reports featuring screaming, freshly-bereaved women before that mud starts to stick. You may think that this is unfair, but I can assure you that what you think about the issue doesn’t mean dick. It is what it is, yo.

Further, I do think – and read my words carefully, because I’m typing them extra slowly so that you’ll understand them better – that the current Israeli government and the previous one are/were paranoid and extremely belligerent. This is evidenced by the things they’ve said and the number of military operations that they have ordered.

I don’t believe they are bloodthirsty, but they are certainly not overly worried about how their habit of leaving piles of dead civilians behind wherever they send their armed forces appears to the rest of the world. That they do this with impunity is incontestable. If this leaves news viewers with the impression that the Israeli leadership are blase about civilian deaths, I’d suggest that has more to do with the government’s habit of (oops) killing civilians than it does with the audience.

There you go, son. Take that, treat it like it’s Play-Doh and no doubt you’ll have a fifteen feet-tall reconstruction of a Nuremberg rally in no time. It’s certainly about four hundred words more than I think you deserve.

If I really wanted to destroy Israel I’d get Melanie Phillips to write ranting propaganda pieces about it.

She is, without a shadow of a doubt, deliberately destroying public support for Israel all over the world.

88. John Meredith

“I don’t believe they are bloodthirsty, but they are certainly not overly worried about how their habit of leaving piles of dead civilians behind wherever they send their armed forces appears to the rest of the world.”

I am relieved that you don’t think Israelis are ‘bloodthristy’. This is what you wrote:

“In short, you’d want to make Israel look like a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out”

So you are modifying that to ‘non-bloodthirsty, paranoid, racst freaks determined to murde fuck out of civlians year in year out’? Or do you not believe the are determined to murder civilians? Or i that a misundertaning too?

Or we can just simplify. Do YOU think Israelis or the Israeli government are ‘racist fraks determined to murder civilians’? Or do you think that is a misapprehension that the Israeli gvernment has unfortunately allowed to take root because of poor PR?

89. John Meredith

“There have been and continue to be disgusting anti-Semitic memes throughout history, but the point that you utterly fail to understand is that: criticism of Israel (or the Israeli Government’s actions, to clarify) does not = anti-Semite. ”

You are quite wrong. I think criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate and necessary. I consider myself a harsh critic. But I think Israel’s worst enemy are those people who explode themselves on Israeli buses and I don’t think Israelis or their government are racist freaks, or any kind of freaks, actually. Nor do I think they are deteremined to murder civilians with impunity. I actually think they wuld prefer not to kill anyone at all. Honestly, that is what I believe. I believe it of the Chinese too. Crazy, I know.

90. Nick Cohen is a Tory

John
I agree that Israel is not a racist state but it is naive to say that their are not men in the government of the military of Israel who are not bloodthirsty.
Also the violence helps the extremists on both sides.
Some of the actions of the Israeli military in Operation cast lead was pretty unpleasant.
Also when have you been critical of the actions of the Israeli government

Or we can just simplify.

Simpleton, more like.

Mr Meredith:
I’m curious. What part of:
“Jesus facepalming Christ. Let’s say you were a cartoonish, Ahmadinejadesque lunatic fixated on destroying Israel.

How would you go about achieving your goal?

In short, you’d want to make Israel look like a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out, so that the entire planet disowns them by, for example, withdrawing their ambassadors and issuing a barrage of denuncations.”

do you struggle with?

Is it that you have trouble with reading comprehension? An irony bypass? Perhaps English is your fifth language? I mean seriously, what’s the excuse for such an egregious misreading.

93. John Meredith

“Mr Meredith: I’m curious. What part of … do you struggle with?”

I have pointed out two things:

1. We don’t have to imagine a cartoonish Ahmadenijad figure because Ahmadnijad is real and in power and is busy building a nuclear weapon and funding Hamas an organisation with an explicilty antisemitc and genocidal charter so that somewhat undermines the ‘own worst enemy’ thesis from the get-go.

2. There is no point is trying to dodge the fact that Flying Rodent believes that the perception that Israel is made up of or ruled by racist freaks determined to murder civilians with impunity is an accurate one so irony is beside the point. I asked him. He withdrew ‘bloodthirsty’, though, which was nice.

I think it is your reading comprehension that needs work. Or maybe you don’t quite understand what ‘irony’ means? Ironic, really.

Irony bypass it is then. I guess one shouldn’t make fun of the disabled.

95. John Meredith

“I agree that Israel is not a racist state but it is naive to say that their are not men in the government of the military of Israel who are not bloodthirsty.”

It may be but that is true of any group of military men anywhere and not really very noteworthy. The question would be whether the actions of the government have been bloodthirsty and I think you would be hard pressed to say they were, even if you think they were wrong. Even Flying Rodent who has, let’s say, mixed feelings about the kind of people who live in Israel, climbed down off that one.

“Also the violence helps the extremists on both sides. Some of the actions of the Israeli military in Operation cast lead was pretty unpleasant.”

I agree with both points in a limited way. But would you really therefore say that Palestinians are their own worst enemy?

“Also when have you been critical of the actions of the Israeli government2

Many times, too many to count.

@John Meredith:

I’ll regret joining in here, but:

“I don’t believe they are bloodthirsty, but they are certainly not overly worried about how their habit of leaving piles of dead civilians behind wherever they send their armed forces appears to the rest of the world.”

I am relieved that you don’t think Israelis are ‘bloodthristy’. This is what you wrote:

“In short, you’d want to make Israel look like a paranoid, bloodthirsty and extremely belligerent nation of racist freaks, determined to murder fuck out of civilians with total impunity year-in, year-out”

So you are modifying that to ‘non-bloodthirsty, [yadda yadda yadda’

Look at what FlyingRodent wrote. See the words ‘look like’?

97. John Meredith

“Irony bypass it is then. I guess one shouldn’t make fun of the disabled.”

FD was not being ironic. He really does think Israel is at he characterised it (minus the bloodthirstiness). Otherwise, his point could only be that Israel needs better PR work so the world could see its actions in their true honourable light. Do you think that he really thinks that (read his comment above)? That he thinks Israel have behaved admirably or acceptably but have foolishly allowed theirr enemies to portray them as murderous racist freaks?

Or i that a misundertaning too?

I not a misundertaning, John. You are pretending you don’t undertan because you are an ignoranus.

You make snide insinuations and refuse to clarify your accusations of racism. You misquote me and pretend I’ve said things that I haven’t, then slyly move the goalposts elsewhere. Now you want me to answer a string of your ludicrous questions. Is there any reason at all why I shouldn’t just invite you to sod off and take your ridiculous patter with you?

Keep digging John, its really quite entertaining.

100. John Meredith

“Look at what FlyingRodent wrote. See the words ‘look like’?”

So I will ask the same question baack to you: do you think Flying R thinks that it ‘looks like’ Israel is murderous but that in fact it isn’t? If that is his position he should clarify.

His last comment seemed to suggest that Israel is murderous and doesn’t care that it is seen as murderous (‘they are certainly not overly worried about … etc’). That is at least a welcome variant on ‘murderous and able to deploy enormous resources through the’lobby’ to disguise that fact’.

101. John Meredith

“I not a misundertaning, John. You are pretending you don’t undertan because you are an ignoranus. ”

Really it can only be one or the other.

Buyut I didn’t misquite you, I quoted you accurately .And I invited you to distance yourself from the quotation if you wanted to, but you didn’t. If you think that Israel has been misrepresented by its enemies as murderous, racist etc, say so (I think you have already). If you don’t then why distance yourself from the quote where you say they are these things?

“I think criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate and necessary. I consider myself a harsh critic”

They still have a welfare state then?

103. Col. Richard Hindrance (Mrs)

This John Meredith chap really is a massive wanker, isn’t he. And as thick as Devonshire cream to boot.

@John Meredith:

So I will ask the same question baack to you: do you think Flying R thinks that it ‘looks like’ Israel is murderous but that in fact it isn’t? If that is his position he should clarify.

Yes. well, sort of, if you replace ‘murderous’ with ‘bloodthirsty’, which you originally objected to. I know this because he said so quite clearly with words from the English language in post number 86. That’s the one where you took your ‘looks like’ quote from. It’s also where he says:

I don’t believe they are bloodthirsty, but they are certainly not overly worried about how their habit of leaving piles of dead civilians behind wherever they send their armed forces appears to the rest of the world. That they do this with impunity is incontestable. If this leaves news viewers with the impression that the Israeli leadership are blase about civilian deaths, I’d suggest that has more to do with the government’s habit of (oops) killing civilians than it does with the audience.

Which explains that he doesn’t think they are bloodthirsty, and why it looks like they are. It’s pretty clear.

105. John Meredith

“They still have a welfare state then?”

They do, it is one of the things about Israel that I think are worth celebrating.

106. John Meredith

“Which explains that he doesn’t think they are bloodthirsty, and why it looks like they are.”

He withdrew ‘bloodthirsty’ but wanted (as far as I understand) ‘murderous racist freaks’ etc to stand (I agree that non-bloodthirsty but murderous seems contradictory, but what can you do?). As I said, if those views attributed to Israel’s enemies are in Rodent’s view false, he should say so. If not, the article claims what I said it did. Why be mealy mouthed about it?

Wow, this has gone from antisemitism all the way to plain old semantics.

108. Col. Richard Hindrance (Mrs)

“Why be mealy mouthed about it?”

Says the moron who started this whole tediously pedantic exchange by snidely insinuating that FR was an anti-semite Nazi who would welcome a new Final Solution*, and then subsequently ran away from stating so clearly when challenged.

Meredith is so mealy-mouthed he probably drools porridge. A despicable coward.

*post #39. In its entirety.

@John Meredith

FlyingRodent has only posted once since the explanation about looking bloodthirsty and didn’t withdraw anything in that post.

He already did say that he thought those views were false, in post 86 and all over the chuffing shop when he explained the motives of the OP. ‘I don’t think they’re bloodthirsty’ is pretty unequivocal, dude.

Why be mealy mouthed about it?

So to be clear, you expect infinite charity for your bullshit allegations of barely-concealed racist hatred, but feel justified in demanding that people explain things to you that you already grasp very well and are pretending not to understand?

This may be the finest piece of trolling I’ve ever seen!

111. John Meredith

“So to be clear, you expect infinite charity for your bullshit allegations of barely-concealed racist hatred, but feel justified in demanding that people explain things to you that you already grasp very well and are pretending not to understand?”

No, I am not the one dodging around. I didn’t make any accustions. I think you can only mean that Israel is its own worst enemy because it behaves in the ways you describe and that such behaviour alienates good will in other nations, or it is its own worst enemy because it allows the false impression that it behaves in these ways to get about. The tenor of your article supports the formerr rather than the latter inteprpretation, but I am willing to be corrected.

The key to John’s argument is here:

…(as far as I understand)….

i.e not even slightly.

John, you impenetrably stupid bastard, the whole article is about Israel’s PR problem, and how its tactics are playing into the hands of its enemies. Your demands that the rodent should “clarify” his position because otherwise you will assume he’s an antisemite are completely ridiculous. The passage you keep quoting is clearly spoken through a “a cartoonish, Ahmadinejadesque lunatic”. You have no right to assume that the views he attributes to a fictional maniac represent his own opinions, and he has no obligation to disavow them just to satisfy your pathetic mewling.

113. Col. Richard Hindrance (Mrs)

“I am willing to be corrected.”

Aye, right.

More lies and obfuscation from the loathsome attention-seeker Meredith.

Hi John,

Seriously, WTF?

First of all, you cannot read what is above. As everyone has made clear FR doesn’t think what you think he thinks about Israel, merely the appearance of Israel,

You take “Ahmadinejadesque” literally, as though Ahmadinejadesque existed first and Ahmadinejad merely appeared a little while ago in perfect measure with the platonic form. Literal? Its short hand for “madman intent on destroying Israel” it is churlish to pretend otherwise.

Perhaps importantly I must mention that you insinuated that Flying Rodent is a Nazi, and then pretend you have not.

What’s this? The ‘insane, murderous’ Jews, er, sorry, ‘Zionists’, are their own worst enemy? Provoking the world with their blood-spilling, putting themselves beyond the pale until reasonable people are pushed, through exasperation, into searching for a solution? How reassuring in a changing world to find some things always remain the same.

“Solution” is the operative word here. How many people discuss anti-Semitism without reference to the shoah/holocaust/final solution? I think to one sig fig it is 0.

There’s also the mention of the “pale” I assume a reference to the pale of settlement on the western edge of the Russian empire. This implies you’re no slouch when it comes to things Semitic and further underlines that when you said “solution” you knew exactly what you were implying.

Not to mention you put words into FDs mouth, he never said “Zionist” yet you pretend he did.

All in all it doesn’t look good for you. If there is a single person reading this comment thread thinking “Go John Meredith Go” please speak up. I bet no one does.

115. Mohn Jeredith

i support John Meredith and think he is rigt and the Flying Rodnet is an anti-semetic.

i am not a sock pupet

116. John Meredith's Mum

Oh John, what have you been up to now? I told you not to call the bigger boys racist and look what you went and did! No milk and biscuits for you tonight (but if you’re good until bedtime I might read you a fairytale, you do have *such* an imagination!)

The problem for Israel is that because of their own deception on many issues nobody with any sense believes a word they say. They lock up a man in jail because he dared to tell the world that they have nukes. Something they still won’t admit, and they lied to the nuclear inspectors when they came to Israel. They claim they don’t want to take over Palestine but they keep building settlements. They steal passports from foreign nationals and then carry out killings which they then deny.

Nobody is going to push them into the sea, they have one of the worlds most high tech military. They have become a security state, rather than a country. And a fucking dangerous one at that.

118. Just Visiting

It sounds like some folk here think that Israel actively want to shoot up folks.

Which they must know – will get them international criticism.

But that begs the question- why did they shoot the convey – knowing it would backfire on them?

I don’ think FR has addressed that yet.

It’s normally sensible to assume all parties in a dispute act rationally – within their own frameworks of course.

So what was the Israeli framework? Why did they do it?

Were they
i) trapped into it – a no-win / no-win: to either let in 500 folk they deemed unfriendly and likely to result in more loss of international face…. or to try to prevent them, and end up losing face if their attempt on the convoy became violent. They chose the latter ‘no-win’

or
ii) in middle-eastern culture and some other honour-shame ones, the ‘strong man ‘ culture means that applying our western notions of sensible, don’t apply.

That Israel feels their neighbours will only understand strong-man tactics -and so are less averse to use them.

“I don’ think FR has addressed that yet.”

FFS man, did you not spot *the first paragraph* of the original post?

This thread really is turning into disingenuity central.

120. Boris the Badger

“It sounds like some folk here think that Israel actively want to shoot up folks.”

Kinda looks as though they do, doesn’t it?

FD was not being ironic.

Woo, Decent telepathy! I wonder if it would be possible to do Decent bingo cards.

Perhaps some sort of reading comprehension test should be brought in for posts like this to weed out trolls. Several level-headed people are wasting their time on a troll who can’t even be bothered to get the name of the person he’s addressing right.

I’m sure this will blow JM’s mind, but Israel does not = all Jews. That’s right, there are Jews elsewhere in the world! Furthermore, Israel isn’t even entirely Jewish, there are Christian and Muslim Israelis too.

In fact – get this – there’s an organisation called Jews for Justice for Palestinians! What was the (ironically befitting) phrase you used? ‘Crazy, I know.’

122. Charlie 2

Over the years there has been a change in those who are influential. Up to about the mid 70s Israel was dominated by the European Jews, often of an intellectual persuasion and the early settlers . Fromthe mid 70s , Jews who were expelled /left arab lands post 1948/56 /68 became more influential and these were more hardline than those European origin. Since the mid 70s the massive growth in the size of the orthodox Hassidic population with their large families has ncreased their influence. The immigration of Jews rom Ethiopa and Soviet Union has also increased the size of the hardline element.

The rise of Hamas and Hizbollah ( with support from Iran ) and Islamic Jihad combined with the inompetence and corruption of the PLA provide perfect justification for actions of the hardline elements in Israel . It would appear the hardline elements on all side have become dominant and until more pragmatic and competent leaders come forward, then I cannot see much chance for peace.

123. Nick Cohen is a Tory

I am afraid that Hamas was helped by right wing elements in MOSSAD. The story was released by Israeli newspapers. So the chargers of anti semitic conspiracy theories doesn’t really hold
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO). Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority” in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza.They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad.The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an “Islamic University” in Gaza. The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza..

124. Just Visiting

Neil 119

You mention FR’s first paragraph – but it doesn’t seem to say what you suggest, it says:

“Jesus facepalming Christ. Let’s say you were a cartoonish, Ahmadinejadesque lunatic fixated on destroying Israel.

So the question remains – how did Israel end up doing what they did, knowing what the consequences would be: if we assume that they act rationally and with self-interest within a logical framework.

Troll counters accusations of disingenuity with, er, more disingenuity. Clever troll.

126. Just Visiting

Neil

This is boring for anyone still reading.

Just quote the paragraph you meant, is the quickest thing.

127. Just Visiting

Looks like as more facts come out, others are not seeing this case as cut+dried as some on this thread have:

Eg the Washington Post:
“EDITORIAL: The Freedom Flotilla fraud
“Supposed peace activists were fixing for a fight

“….Backers of the illegal blockade-running effort portray themselves as humanitarians, but this claim is dubious. They had rejected an Israeli offer to send the supplies they were carrying to Gaza overland, joining the tons of supplies that flow to Gaza daily, but this would not have fulfilled the organizers’ goal of having a splashy, made-for-media event. So they went ahead with their voyage, fomented the incident, and international organizations, governments and the press fell for it, as expected.

“This is the beginning of a high-seas intifada aimed at the hearts and minds of the global community, an attempt to isolate Israel and make heroes of Hamas…

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/1/the-freedom-flotilla-fraud/

128. Just Visiting

Youtube has several relevant videos – this one shows :

“From the security cameras aboard the Mavi Marmara: the passengers of the Gaza flotilla are seen here preparing for confrontation with the IDF soldiers. The rioters put on gas masks and arm themselves with rods, slingshots, broken bottles, metal objects, and water hoses. As the IDF soldiers approach the ship the rioters immediately attack the forces by hurling these objects at them.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

Well I was right, someone would come around and claim that criticisms of the state of Israel are anti-semitic. This line is pretty much reductio ad hitlerum (see Wiki article). No doubt the Israeli trains run on time. What we have seen happen could legitimately be regarded as piracy, and similarly dispicable to the North Korean sinking a South Korean ship. Now there are lots of lovely people in Israel, just as elsewhere, but it was still piracy, amd I am not an anti-semite for saying so.

How sweet. The troll thinks the Moonie Times is a legitimate news source.

131. Just Visiting

Cian

Yes. you’re right – I hadn’t spotted first time that it was not the well known Washington Post, but the Times.

So not a great quote, apologies.

132. Just Visiting

I did find this claim:

“Media reports in Ankara on Wednesday revealed that three out of the four Turkish citizens that were killed during the raid declared their wishes to become shahids (martyrs). Another Dutch report claimed a Dutch activist, who was arrested by the IDF is suspected of being a senior Hamas operative.”

But I’ve been unable to find URL sources for it from the Turkish newspaper Haber where it first appeared.

The above comes from:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898109,00.html

(which is considered I guess as a reliable source :” Ynetnews is the English-language sister-site to Ynet, Israel’s largest and most popular news and content website.

“Ynetnews is part of the prominent Yedioth Media Group, which publishes Yedioth Ahronoth – Israel’s most widely-read daily newspaper – as well as several popular magazines and dozens of local publications.


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. John Fraser

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  2. FlyingRodent

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  3. David O'Keefe

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  5. Laura Blyth

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  6. John Band

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  7. Aaron Murin-Heath

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  8. Aaron Murin-Heath

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  9. Jared Gaites

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  10. roolbg

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  11. Nurul Ambia

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  12. Bristle KRS

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  13. Martyn

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  14. Mark Morris

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/05/31/israels-biggest-enemy-is-itself/

  15. nobby-Lobby

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  18. Gareth Winchester

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  19. Jessica Marshall

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    Too damn right. When it comes to rogue states Israel is arguably the worst.

  20. Think Debate

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  22. Sameera Hanif

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  23. fatrat

    News: Israeli govenmt run by Iranian sleepers: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/05/31/israels-biggest-enemy-is-itself/ #israel

  24. Liberal Conspiracy

    Israel's biggest enemy is itself http://bit.ly/cW4mAD

  25. Moonbootica

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  26. earwicga

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  27. Roland Ellison

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  29. Chris D'Souza

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  30. Chris D'Souza

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  31. FlyingRodent

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  32. Leon Green

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  33. Jenny Wren

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  35. Mick Hogben

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  36. Dave Tormey

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  37. Dave Tormey

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  38. Tareq Mohammad

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  39. Tareq Mohammad

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  40. O.W.J. Burnham

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  41. T. Baron O'Daighre

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  42. Nick Drew

    Israel’s biggest enemy is itself « Liberal Conspiracy
    http://bit.ly/bzw04E <-"a godawful, mutual death spiral" – most sensible comment today

  43. Sinareet Aye

    RT @JaredGaites RT @sunny_hundal: Israel’s biggest enemy is itself: http://bit.ly/coEqmA – says @flying_rodent #freedomflotilla #gaza

  44. Sarah Ditum

    We've now got @flying_rodent's excellent Israel's Biggest Enemy Is Itself piece republished on LibCon: http://bit.ly/coEqmA (via @johnb78)

  45. Brontides » Blog Archive » Israel has all of these guns, yet seems intent on mostly shooting itself in the foot

    [...] original title for this fine post, as seen under the banner “Israel’s biggest enemy is itself” on Liberal [...]

  46. Paul Nolan

    RT @libcon Israel’s biggest enemy is itself http://bit.ly/coEqmA

  47. Derek

    http://bit.ly/bYetGM Inflammatory article but I agree that the best outcome for the Israeli people isn't really being pushed by their gov.

  48. Alex Naysmith

    Mr Meredith has just slandered Mr Rodent on the following thread's comments http://bit.ly/cW4mAD

  49. Jasper Sharpe

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/05/31/israels-biggest-enemy-is-itself/

  50. Mad Mel | Joss Garman

    [...] is also an excellent piece about Israel over at Liberal [...]

  51. P. S. Wong

    @1bdasgupta @RuthJohnson50 On this very subject, have you seen this? http://bit.ly/cW4mAD

  52. Links Overkill! « AngloNoelNatter

    [...] Rodent wonders aloud whether the Israeli Government is its own worse enemy: It’s been clear for years that the Israeli [...]





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