“And yet police forces up and down the country have been stepping forward to dispel the myth. Staffordshire police said that “there is no truth in [the rumours] whatsoever”, while West Midlands Police denied that there is any directive whatsoever about a ban. A spokesperson dismissed the rumours as “nonsense“.”

Unfortunate choice of examples for up and down the country there. Aren’t they both in the middle?

Anyway, Sunny has already shown how stupid these rumours are. But to assume they are English nationalism seems a bit strange. Sure, the underlying cause of the writers might be the persecution of the English by government (a meme adapted from memes in the United States I think), but why is this representative of English nationalism? This is like saying that someone beating up English students in Scotland is representative of Scottish nationalism, because that is what motivates them. It confuses a movement or ideal with a particular manifestation of that movement or ideal and fails to recognise that there are other influences.

In these cases the idiocy is not primarily representative of English nationalism, which is instead just an assumed value against which these stories can play on the emotions. Rather it reflects the aforementioned government threatening national identity meme, perhaps also making play on the ideas of multiculturalism threatening Englishness (a logical inconsistency) and the threat of alternative nationalist movements. These, and perhaps other less savoury motives, are the active agents which are promoting the seige mentality.

This means that the reaction in the original post is likely to be the one the various writers want – one that associates his or her argument with the core of English nationalism, and accuses the whole movement of having a seige mentality. Which means in turn that English nationalists see themselves treated as all being holding this particular viewpoint, and start to associate it with their views. This sort of liberal rubbishing of English nationalism as being associated with a drunken pisshead is only reinforcing the sense of alienation from liberal society that the article writers sought to promote. With the added bonus of not really being addressed at English nationalism at all, but at certain memes that attach themselves to it.

None of which means Claude is not correct that the memes and their expression are pathetic of course. But perhaps seperating the memes and the movement to which they are parisitical would be a good idea?

an alarming number of Brits are happy to be treated like imbeciles

It’s not just at the time of world football championships – people fall for tabloid bullshit all year round. Then again perhaps it isn’t so alarming – maybe the fact is that a significant number of Brits are happy to be treated like imbeciles because they ARE imbeciles, or just incredibly intolerant/prejudiced (same thing in my book)

Think about all the stuff you put up on your blog, Claude, or at Tabloid Watch, or The Sun Lies, or 5cc, about all the nonsense in the tabloids and mid-market papers. They only get away with it because they know people will fall for it.

What irks me most is how papers quote comments from Facebook users in those stupid groups, and other stupid groups whenever something like this happens – as if they’re accurate indicators of public opinion or anything other than the inane ramblings of some twat who can’t think of anything better to do than write crap on Facebook.

After paying for my petrol in a filling station during the last World Cup, I politely declined the offer of a free ‘David Beckham medallion’ in my native Scots accent.

The cashier then queried my support for the football team, some of the other customers joined in and I narrowly escaped with my life.

English jingoism is not pretty.

This Gwynedd resident would like to point out that it isn’t just English nationalism that has a siege mentality.

pagar,

As a student in my ancestor’s homeland (Scotland) at the time Braveheart was in the cinemas, I was unable to walk alone from the pub to my hall of residence, due to the danger of being attacked for being English. Several friends were insulted or assualted for being foreigh, and it was the only time I felt unsafe in a welcoming and lovely country (other than when England beat Scotland at something).

My point. Jingoism is not pretty anywhere. But nationalism is not jingoism, so please try not to confuse the two.

Claude, can you offer any explaination as to why this seige mentality exists?

Is it purely a result of the tabloid’s desire to sell papers?

This stuff has been going on for years. ten years ago the Mail ran a headline about one of the London boroughs refusing to fly the Union Flag from the council building because it would offend minorities. (horror of horror)

It turned out they had rejected a proposal to fly it every day because that went against the tradition of flying it only for state occasions.

Perfectly reasonable – but why let that stop an emotionally manipulative story?

How about a law that forces tabloids to print a warning on every page saying “The contents of this “news”paper may not be true. Please think before you repeat any of the stories printed below.” It would save me a lot of time saying “but it isn’t true, think about it” to friends and relatives, (particularly my in-laws who read the bl**dy Mail).

“English jingoism is not pretty.”

Least readers believe English football fans are inclined to get a tad over-excited, try these real news reports from 2006:

Prime Minister Tony Blair has condemned attacks on a seven-year-old boy and 41-year-old man who were wearing England shirts in Scotland. The attacks in Edinburgh and Aberdeen are being treated as football-related racist assaults.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5101184.stm

Police have launched an investigation after England flags were torn from a house and burned in Stonehaven.
Alexander Clark was flying the three flags in the Aberdeenshire town in support of England in the World Cup. The large flags had been hanging from the house in Newbigging Drive since the beginning of the tournament but disappeared overnight on Friday. A man was assaulted in Aberdeen last week while wearing an England football shirt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/5116434.stm

As for my own sentiments, try this news from 1369:

“Cause public proclamation to be made,” declared an Act of 1369,”that everyone of said City of London strong in body, at leisure times and on holydays, use in their recreation bows and arrows.” Popular amusements such as handball and football were banned on pain of imprisonment to promote archery practice.
[See entry for "Archery" in Weinreb and Hibbert (eds): The London Encyclopaedia (1993)]

The fascinating insight is that in those times the English establishment, unlike in France, was unconcerned at the prospect of any number of practised, skilled and armed archers wandering around the City of London. How come?

@1
I was expecting this “you-can’t-tar-everyone-with-the-same-brush” mantra. Easy way to argue the toss and pretend that the issue of irresponsible tabloids inflaming the situation is not actually a major one.

As I wrote on my blog (the initial bit that got edited out), [W]hy can’t people just be proud of their country and their flag without having to turn their nationalism into a brain-dead Neanderthal-like fetish based on paranoia and “siege mentality”?

Is it so difficult?

“This is like saying that someone beating up English students in Scotland is representative of Scottish nationalism, “

No. Your example referring to a hypothetical single episode is nonsensical. The comparison doesn’t stand, it’s proper strawman material.

I’m sure you can agree that the systematic, idiotic, industrial-size effort from the best selling tabloids (Sun, Mail, Express, Star) repeating the same rubbish and spreading crap rumours to make the country feel besieged and paranoid has huge repercussions as it’s too readily believed by too many.

Such stories appear so regularly that it becomes difficult to avoid the temptation to spot a pattern here associated with at least significant chunks of English nationalism.

On another note, the anger on those Facebook groups is so disturbing, especially as it’s based on total crap (sure, on the plus side you can argue that at least Facebook acts as some kind of outlet or safety valve for this kind of irrational red mist).

Which brings to #6:
“Claude, can you offer any explaination as to why this seige mentality exists?
Is it purely a result of the tabloid’s desire to sell papers?”

Who knows for sure…
An element of tribalism, siege mentality and paranoia has always (probably) been present in all of us and it’s quite easy to whip up, bring to the fore and exploit.

Few would probably deny that the tabloids play a humongous role in all this. And it’s no coincidence that Britain is the only European country with such a cumbersome tabloid press (indeed most countries don’t have any tabloid press at all, certainly nowhere near Britain’s levels of circulation and political influence).

I can only tell you that I’ve had the luck of living in three other countries other than the UK and – I mean this – this type of pre-World (or Euro) Cup redneck-like sensationalism based on “siege mentality” is unique to England. Not Britain. England. It doesnt exist in France, it doesn’t exist in Italy, it doesn’t exist in Spain.

Note that in all those countries there is a lot of football-related patriotism. Loads. It’s just nowhere near as whiny and certainly not in need of clinging onto this “siege mentality” all the time.

I don’t even know if the tabloids do it consciously to sell more papers.

But it’s undeniable that they’ve done this for decades. There are thousands of examples of distorted (or sometimes even totally fabricated) headlines or stories with the sole intent of causing a national stir.

Most people here will remember all the controversy associated with the tabloids’ vile conduct during Euro 96. The “we’re at war rhetoric”, “let’s Blitz Fritz”, and the orgy of tacky jingoism that resulted in a lot of anti-German violence (Piers Morgan hmself acknowledged many years later that he deeply regretted what his paper printed while he was at the helm).

And if you still think that it’s not the red tops that stir most of this crap, look at what happened after Euro 2004 (when England lost to Portugal with the Swiss referee Uri Meier being criticised for some dubious decisions).

The Sun unleashed a hate campaign against the ref. “Urs hole” and “idiot ref”, the tabloid titled, showing a remarkable display of finesse and then asking readers to “let rip” and send him emails.

This was followed by reports in the Daily Mail and the Sun, revealing that Mr Meier had left his wife, with whom he has two children, for a fellow referee. The papers also published details of where he lived and worked.

The Sun followed this up by sending “reporters” outside his home and sticking a huge St George flag outside his front door in northern Switzerland.

Needless to say, death threats against Meier and his family followed which forced him to leave his home and quit his job. He later declared he didn’t want to put his family at direct danger.

The funniest thing is that the tabloids tell their readers every 4 years that England WILL win the world cup and are the favourites. Then when they lose it is always some conspiracy that they lost.

May have something to do with why people find the English arrogant.

Of course the most ridiculous bit is that News international is owned by a man who thinks nationalism is so important that he gave up his, to become an American. The good news is that newspapers are losing circulation. All be it slower than I would like ,but it is happening.

At the time of the last world cup in 2006, around where I live in London, a few Italian flags were flying amidst a host of St George Cross flags. This was possibly as much a testament to the popular regard for the flourishing Italian restaurants in the locality as a celebration of Italian football.

At no time did I detect any abuse directed at the Italian flags and no incidents of abuse were reported in the local press. All the display of football patriotism was fairly light hearted. But then the staff at checkouts in the local supermarkets are fairly representative of the united nations.

Its just so saddening to see people take it so much at face value. The article in the Sun about Cornwall clearly says this is one extreame reaction from a group supporting Cornish seperatism. With only 55 members (even after the free publicity its only got 250!).

And yet there are commenters on there who clearly believe every man, woman and child in cornwall is building a wall of half-inched Tesco trolleys from Plymouth to Mead. Take this wise old sage –

maybe all the english should boycott cornwall and see how they get on,as they clearly have a problem with us english……………..maybe they should come away from the funding that they no doubt get from the uk

Is it so authoritarian to believe these stories should be used to roiund up the commenters and have them depatched on account of being of no value to the human race?

Some random thoughts that may arrive at an argument.

1. Many people need to associate with a group in ways that non-
tribal people find difficult to understand. People associate with a sports team, nation, cultural movement etc in order to express their identity. And bizarrely they will adopt a tribal uniform to express their uniqueness.

2. As Chris Dillow once wrote, English football supporters congregate around the national team to talk about soccer in ways that they can’t discuss local teams. Wayne Rooney can be admired for his talents as an English player by those who would criticise his performances at Man Utd. (An exception to this rule is when fans of teams in the relegation zone get together; pain and fear forces a respectful debate.)

3. Tabloids do not just invent silly stories based on soccer nationalism. Non-existent Health and Safety rules about children playing conkers is sufficient for a work of fiction.

4. Newspapers are struggling to reinvent themselves (and their business model) in the internet era. One of their problems is that they do not understand how to deal with the information that is spread by blogs and social networking sites. Their response at the moment is to rip off bloggers for stories and to repeat social networking rumours.

5. The nationalism that is portrayed in the tabloids does not represent typical UK society. If there is an international rugby tournament, I expect to see a few Irish flags flying on my street as well as the cross of St George. I am not denying the nationalist extremes described by others in this thread, but they are anecdotes rather than statistical evidence. Which is not to say that the individual experience was trivial.

6. The extreme English nationalism of the tabloids may be cathartic rather than rabble rousing. In our heads, we all know that our nation or region is imperfect. But when England are going into the World Cup, we have to think that the team is the best whilst feeling smug that we drew Brazil in the office sweepstake.

If I have an original argument, it would be about point 4. As long as newspapers think that news is repeating half baked internet allegations, they are doomed. Perez Hilton will beat them to the celebrity gossip, fanzines will always get the music and sport stories first and political blogs will always be good for a laugh.

When nonsense is reported on the internet, the press should shoot it down rather than repeating it. The broadsheets should be high minded and arrogant. The tabloids should treat nonsense stories as a joke and draw some laughs pointing at the idiocy of the allegations. (They would, of course, be pointing at rubbish that they would have previously published themselves, but consistency is not a tabloid attribute.)

Disclosure: I have co-authored false stories that were spread via blogs, then reported in UK newspapers.

These stories and the dozens (hundreds?) of others are like them are little more than badly manufactured excuses to either justify hatred or the accelerated abolishment of civil rights (the escaped prisoner/kfc/yuman rites lie, being an example that springs to mind).

As far as I can tell there is absolutely no mention of Muslims (or Sikhs) anywhere in the police recommendations, you don’t have to be particularly clever to see how they’ve ended up in the mix.

Are the members of those Facebook groups imbeciles? I’m really not sure, they MUST know it’s all bullshit, they accept it in a ‘diabolical villain’ sort of way, but they must know by now it’s all nonsense, surely nobody is that stupid.

I always find that articles like this by smug superior ‘Liberals’ telling me how uniquely terrible the English are bring out the siege mentality in me.

This article has absolutely nothing to do with English nationalism.

“I always find that articles like this by smug superior ‘Liberals’ telling me how uniquely terrible the English are bring out the siege mentality in me.”

Where does it say that “the English are uniquely terrible”? Help me coz I can’t find that bit, my dear.

But if that’s how it makes you feel, how do gems like “if our england tops am banned your sari should b2” make you feel, Sarah?

“I always find that articles like this by smug superior ‘Liberals’ telling me how uniquely terrible the English are bring out the siege mentality in me

Well if you don’t like these articles dont read them. This is a liberal site after all. Perhaps if you did not troll on here you would not read them.

Some idiot wrote…

“Well if you don’t like these articles dont read them.”

Er, how the hell are we supposed to know if we don’t like them, then?

The same idiot wrote…

“May have something to do with why people find the English arrogant”

Not ‘some people’, but ‘people’. She knows about ‘people’ (I assume all people, as opposed to some people), because she has either asked them all personally, or she just KNOWS she’s right.

Wow, what kind of place can spawn such an ARROGANT person?

Where are you from, oh dopey one who seems to know so much?

(BTW if this offends you, it’s your fault for reading it) LOL

“Well if you don’t like these articles dont read them. This is a liberal site after all. Perhaps if you did not troll on here you would not read them.”

Yes. People should just shut up, do as they’re told and be patronised by the likes of you and the author . One of my ‘betters’ (in their arrogant opinion anyway) has spoken. Don’t tell me let me guess. Diversity’s great just not so long as people aren’t so diverse as to offer an opposing opinion to yours.

“People should just shut up, do as they’re told and be patronised by the likes of you and the author .”

Hey. Sarah.

Stop.

We are talking about a false story here, an inflammatory one, perpetrated by the tabloids which has brought about a lot of unnecessary hatred. You’re fine about industrial amounts of bollocks being spread around. Other people are not.

If you’re happy having The Sun or the Daily Star whipping up your tribal instinct as they tell you to froth at the mouth and jump at their order, then go ahead, it’s a free country.

But at least do us a favour don’t go round dishing up the word “patronising” at other people. Pot and kettle spring to mind.

“surely nobody is that stupid”

they are!

Hey Claude

Stop!

You seem to be happy having Sally venting her tribal instinct and frothing at the mouth by acertaining ‘people’ (all people in the world, or just the voices in her head?) think the English (not a bigotted view mind; she has interviewed all 50m of us) are arrogant. So, go ahead, it’s a free country.

But at least do us a favour. Don’t go round dishing up the word “hatred” at other people. Pot and kettle spring to mind.

(PS if you’re offended at this, you shouldn’t have read it)

Could this be why there is a siege mentality when MP’s make comments like this?

From Labour MPs:

Jack Straw (English): ’The English are potentially very aggressive, very violent.’

John Prescott (Welsh): ‘There is no such nationality as English.’

Gordon Brown (Scottish): ‘the Nations & Regions of Britain’ where ‘regions’ refers to England

From Conservative MPs:

David Cameron (English but prefers British) — current Prime Minister): ‘I’ll take on the sour Little Englanders, I’ll fight them all the way.’

William Hague (English — current Foreign Secretary): ‘English Nationalism is the most dangerous of all forms of nationalism.’

From a Liberal Democrat MP:

Charles Kennedy (Scottish): Said that breaking England up into EU Regions is good because ‘it is calling into question the idea of England itself’.

This has been the general attitude of people we elect to westminster andin the media for many years.
There is good reason for people to believe that the police acting on behalf of councils would attempt to ban English flags and shirts.It has been going on since 1997 and devolution for scotland and wales. New Labour invested millions of pounds in re-inventing britain as nations and regions and the name of England has rarely passed the lips of politicians .Even in the last election there was no mention of England. So, that is why there is an up yours mentality about flags. This government should fly the English flag over westminster as proof that English concerns are being dealt with fairly within the uk.

Sarah: telling me how uniquely terrible the English are

Where does the article do that?

“surely nobody is that stupid”

they are!

They know the outcome their lies about ‘white/english persecution’ produce, that’s why they tell them and tell them in such a concerted manner. To be honest the left pointing and laughing – “oh aren’t they a bit stupid, straight bananas lol” is how they’ve got away with it for ten years.

@25: “John Prescott (Welsh): ‘There is no such nationality as English.’”

Try Defoe’s satirical verse: The True-born Englishman. This link is to the edition of 1703 – Defoe, author of Robinson Crusoe, is widely credited as the first novelist writing in the English language:
http://www.luminarium.org/editions/trueborn.htm

A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,
In speech an irony, in fact a fiction . .

Dutch, Walloons, Flemings, Irishmen, and Scots,
Vaudois and Valtelins, and Hugonots,
In good Queen Bess’s charitable reign,
Supplied us with three hundred thousand men.
Religion—God, we thank Thee!—sent them hither,
Priests, Protestants, the Devil and all together:
Of all professions and of every trade,
All that were persecuted or afraid . .

Btw while it’s true that John Prescott was born in Wales, he was brought up in South Yorkshire. Curiously, neither the Welsh nor Yorkshire folk appear eager about claiming ancestral ownership. Just why this is so is a complete mystery.

25:

You’d be convinced by a flag, would you? Pretty much sums it up.

Let’s getting something straight.
1.Like all the English, my family background is mixed. We va bastard race .But I love supporting the England football side, not as much as Wolves or Barcelona, but I do.
2. I must admit that I get caught up with the fever of the world cup, it is tribal I know but that is part of the makeup of any society. I know we will get knocked out by Argentina in the QF but in our house it is fun to have the hope. A little like voting Labour in the last election.
3. The stories are part and parcel of any society, the US , France and others, are exactly the same. All countries and groups think they are getting “picked on” . Take for instant Platini’s idea that clubs should manage their debt. All the pundits in the tabloids, talk tory, and 5 live, scream “He is picking on English clubs”. But if you look at the proposals they are aimed at the spanish and Italian leagues as well and simply say clubs should be run on a German model. Which do not allow clubs to go into debt. Yet we moan and scream ” nasty johnny foreigner”
4. As for the nonsense about football shirts. This is to with the right hate factor.
The right needs hate figures to keep it united, or god forbid they will be arguing amongst themselves. Journalist (who are all right wing c***s especially my moniker), bloggers (are nearly all right wing c****s) and the media.
When there was a left wing government, this was a perfect focus for the hate,but replace it with a right wing government, where is the hate to be aimed. Oh lets see
1. Labour controlled local authorities
2. PC liberalsA
3. Immigrants and minorities
4. Foreign countries that don’t speak English
Look at nasty nicks cohens column’s , he is the perfect barometer for the right’s next hate factors.

I actually detest football with a passion others can only dream of, but it has always been the case that tabloid newspapers rely on made up nonsense to spark outrage and sell more units.

Surely Billy Bragg,s Progressive Patriot model is one we should be fostering – the English as a pretty succesful blend of many races and cultures over more than athousand years. Thomas Paine was easily as powerful as Nelson in his own way, and we are a better nation for it.

There is a growing perception in England that since devolution in Scotland and Wales, we are losing out by not having an English Parliament. There is also widespread hardship caused by the lack of social housing, and increased uncertainty about the futer.

Right wing patriotism can only offer the fear of the other, and the warm cosy feeling of belonging, in your £60.00 England replica shirt, but tjis is more than New Labour offered many on blighted estates.

There is obviously a resentment about devolution, based on the fact that life in Scotland and Wales is, all other things being equal, way better due to local policies.

The far bigger factor is that english people are a bunch of whingeing entitled pansies who aren’t worth listening to most of the time.

@14
I believe your comment about people associating with groups/tribes ect., does explain quite a lot about the often aggresive responses seen amongst football supporters, and am less inclined to accept that the media have much influence.
Violence amongst football supporters is as old as the game -
‘In the late 19th century, concerns were frequently voiced about groups of ‘roughs’ causing trouble at matches by attacking, not only opposing supporters, but also players and referees. politics.co.uk Football Hooliganism
Imo, it isn’t just the England team who attract this sort of tribalism, it’s rife throughout all countries with football teams.

Why are bigots like Gwyn, so at home with big numbers?

She says… “The far bigger factor [this is a fact in Gwyn's mind, so get ready] is that english people are a bunch of whingeing entitled pansies…”

The “English people” total approximately 50m. This would daunt me. I realise that it would take me over a year to say ‘hello’ to everyone of them… and that would assume they came to see me, each one only took two seconds and I stayed awake day and night for over a year.

Not our Gwyn though. Not only has she met every one of us, but she has also interviewed us all to such an extent that she is able to confidently state that we’re all whingeing, entitled pansies.

It seems the narrower the mind, the easier to compute huge numbers, eh Gwyn?

Either that or you’re just a xenophobic facist.

“The article itself refers to none other than “suggestions” sent by the Met to a few pubs in Croydon with a history of football-related disturbances. Just a couple of non-compulsory tips about hiring security staff and introducing dresscode restrictions”

But thats the whole point – it’s nothing to do with “English Nationalism” it’s to do with the Police, as in the state, poking it’s nose in where its not needed. It’s for the landlord to decide who can drink in their pub, and what they can or cannot wear.
IF there is trouble, the polices job is to repond and deal with it, nothing more and nothing less.
Hopefully budget cuts will convince then to concentrate on what they are paid to do, as nothing else seems to.

@ 33 “Imo, it isn’t just the England team who attract this sort of tribalism, it’s rife throughout all countries with football teams.”

Of course it isn’t. One of the myths about football hooliganism is that it’s somehow uniquely English and uniquely modern. Hooliganism happens throughout Europe and beyond. Some of the violence at matches in Argentina and Italy makes the UK variety look like a picnic. At the last world cup, the most violence was seen at Poland vs Germany game, but of course the UK press weren’t interested in that, prefering to dress a few bar room brawls among UK fans up as a riot.

@ 18 “Well if you don’t like these articles dont read them. This is a liberal site after all. Perhaps if you did not troll on here you would not read them”.

A “Liberal” site that supports the Police telling people what they can wear to the pub ? I think you’re confusing the worf “Liberal” with the word “Fascist control freaks”

Yay, we got us a Godwin!

Watchman @ 5

Jingoism is not pretty anywhere. But nationalism is not jingoism

My observation of the English is that they are not natural nationalists which is why the media have to work so hard to create the siege mentality to get them going at all.

But it comes out as cosmetic and jingoistic. Like a David Beckham medallion.

In Scotland, nationalism is quietly assumed among most people and, when it is expressed, it is usually in a self-deprecating tone. Scottish nationalism is only ever strident in juxtaposition to that of England.

Anyway, my predictions for the World Cup.

Two goalless draws after which the papers will graphically question the wisdom of having our team managed by an Italian (remember they had no stomach for the fight in WW2). This will be followed by a 1-0 win after which our heroes will be favourites to win once again and Capello will be canonised for his tactical ability.

Hopes will be dashed by a severe thrashing in the quarters or semis when we come up against a team that is actually good at playing footie.

Finally, all will be well again when the Germans lose in the final.

Can’t wait………..

#37

“A “Liberal” site that supports the Police telling people what they can wear to the pub”

Munro, have you got reading problems?
The police were not “telling” anybody anything.
They simply issued a set of tips. Recommendations. Advice. Nothing compulsory. Nothing mandatory. Nothing. Nowt. Zilch.

More proof that it takes one Sun article for a person to interiorise a total falsehood and not even successive countless disclaimers and denials will set the record straight.
There will always be a Matt Munro believing that the state is “telling people what they can wear” even though it’s simply not true.

#40
“My observation of the English is that they are not natural nationalists which is why the media have to work so hard to create the siege mentality to get them going at all.”

Extremely good point by pagar. I agree fully.

@ 41 “Munro, have you got reading problems?
The police were not “telling” anybody anything.
They simply issued a set of tips. Recommendations. Advice. Nothing compulsory. Nothing mandatory. Nothing. Nowt. Zilch”.

Ok so being intimidated by the Police is now being given “advice”. Would it be ok if they “advised” muslims not to wear muslim dress in public for fear of causing trouble ?
As you well know landlords would feel intimidated that their licenses could be under threat – that is clearlt the sub-text.
The left wing state is history, you need to realise that their role as self appointed “advisors” is no longer on the agenda.

@ 41″ More proof that it takes one Sun article for a person to interiorise a total falsehood and not even successive countless disclaimers and denials will set the record straight.”

I think you’ve invented a new word – “interiorise” although it’s probably something that interior designers do rather than sun readers. I think you mean internalise, and I don’t read the sun, you patronsing prat.

> The left wing state is history, you need to realise that their role as self appointed “advisors” is no longer on the agenda.

So, er, how could this ‘ban’ have happened, then?

Pagar said “In Scotland, nationalism is quietly assumed among most people and, when it is expressed, it is usually in a self-deprecating tone”

This means you are either…
a) Scottish, or
b) have never been to Scotland

You also say the England team will be ‘favourites once again’. This means you are either…
a) a tabloid journalist, or
b) have never been to an England match

#44 Matt Munro

“I think you’ve invented a new word – “interiorise” although it’s probably something that interior designers do rather than sun readers. I think you mean internalise, and I don’t read the sun, you patronsing prat.”

Ignorance and arrogance really are a lethal combination. You should count til ten before going around calling other people “patronsing” and “prat”, Matt.

From the Free Dictionary Online:
interiorise (interiorize) : “To cause (feelings, for example) to become an interior or internal part of one’s mental or spiritual being; internalize”
“(Psychology) (tr) another word for internalize”
“Thesaurus: interiorise, internalise, internalize”

@ TH

Congratulations.

1 (a)

2 (b)

Though I have been to a few Scotland games when England have been there too.

Elementary my dear Pagar, elementary.

Some think the English fans “think they can ‘do it’”, every four years, but it’s not us, it’s the damned journalists.

I have literally watched England grab a draw with Greece and the following day saw a headline that said “we can do it this time”.

I know what’s going to happen. Being an English fan means having to watch
the beautiful game through a veil of tears, but I’m back every four years because it’s all worth it.

And who knows? (whisper) maybe we can do it this time:-)

@ 46 Forgive my lack of erudition and I bow down to the “free dictionary online”. It still sounds like american therapy speak for the sort of pop psychologist and spiv sociologist who hack around on LC.
Perhaps you should think about how you come across – dismising anyone who doesn’t agree with you (with biting originality) as “sun reader” – before you call other people arrogant or ignorant.

@ 45 “So, er, how could this ‘ban’ have happened, then?”

It will unfortunately take a few years and probably a couple of terms to root out the left wing apparchanicks who have infected the public services

Matt Munro: Would it be ok if they “advised” muslims not to wear muslim dress in public for fear of causing trouble ?

They already do a lot of stop and searches – proportionally much more on Muslims and ethnic minorities, which is seen as harassment by most.

You don’t seem to have a problem with that. The minute they issue advice to pubs, you’re all up in arms.

Sunny said “They already do a lot of stop and searches [with ref to police "advising" muslims not to dress in traditional dress]– proportionally much more on Muslims and ethnic minorities, which is seen as harassment by most.”

This is, as a non muslim, wrong in my opinion, Will you join me in condemning the police action to “advise” anyone how to dress, in such equal terms?

Or is it that you’re not ‘up in arms’ if it only includes those who support an English sports team?

Let’s put aside for the moment concerns about bias on the part of the police in Britain and the media here. Try this news item from France in February:

“Two burqa-wearing robbers stole 4,500 euros from a post office in the suburbs of Paris Saturday. The gun toting thieves hid their handguns beneath the Islamic-style full veils. The French government is currently trying to restrict use of the burqa.”
http://www.france24.com/en/20100210-burqa-robbers-post-office-paris-nicolas-sarkozy-ban-national-identity-france-muslim

“It will unfortunately take a few years and probably a couple of terms to root out the left wing apparchanicks who have infected the public services”

But Matt, *you* said “The left wing state is history”. But now you say it’s *not* history, not yet. Heck, it’s almost like you’re making shit up as you go along…

Anyway, keep checking under the bed.

“It will unfortunately take a few years and probably a couple of terms to root out the left wing apparchanicks who have infected the public services”
That sounds sinister. So witchhunts are the name of the game.
You are a dangerous paranoid man.
Replace them with what ? Right wing apparchanicks.
Also I love the ideas that the police are left wing. I have never met a copper who was a liberal leftie.
As for advice, lets get some perspective, it is those poor sods who have to clear up the mess when it kicks off.
Also I don’t know about you I am quite happy for a copper to tell a pub that aha a record of bad behaviour to get their house in order.
As for politicalising the police. The worst case of that was the 84 miners strike. Many northern copper who worked in mining communities were horrified by how the police became a political tool of the state

#53 TH
“Will you join me in condemning the police action to “advise” anyone how to dress, in such equal terms? ”

For the umpteenth time, the police did not advise anyone how to dress. They were offering advice to publicans whose pubs had previously been subjected to violence and various disturbances during football tournaments. They were handing out tips on how to minimise potential incidents.

Take that tinfoil hat off. Stop seeing conspiracies everywhere. No-one wants to stop people from wearing English tops, flip flops or underpants or waving English flags. People like you and Matt “patronsing” Munro desperately want it to be the case, except no-one’s doing it.

Nick Cohen is a Tory, the police have ALWAYS been politicised, look up the Tolpuddle Martyers and the use of the Riot Act in industrial disputes. It’s not always been one way of course. The police were allowed to search a shadow minister’s office, against the principles of an 800 year tradition.

Now, the police are showing their ‘right on’ credentials by telling people what they can and cannot wear. I’m not surprised that the police have no problem with this, but I am surprised some so called “liberals” are not bothered. Shame!

“Now, the police are showing their ‘right on’ credentials by telling people what they can and cannot wear.”

Alright, you win, they are. The police areordering everybody what to wear and not to wear.

They have big fat Alsatians raging with hatred (who also only understand commands in German) waiting to bite into the thighs of whoever is spotted wearing anything that looks like a St Georges Cross, let alone England kits.

They’ve issued compulsory orders that they will even force people to take their trousers off before entering all pubs in the country to make sure no-one is wearing knickers or underpants associated with England.

If anyone refuses to obey the orders a shoot-to-kill policy has been implemented.

All of this is wholeheartedly supported by local councils up and down the country, Liberal Conspiracy, Labour supporters, the Greens and even Charles Kennedy and Unite the Union.

Claude, if a “dress code restriction” isn’t “advising anyone how to dress” what the bloody hell is it?

Before you quote the Met’s cop-out clause (no pun intended) that “licensees are not obliged to follow our advice”, just think about it for a moment.

A letter like this, to a business that is VERY sensitive to police opinion, is taken VERY seriously.

To test your theory however, the next time the old Bill “advise” you to move on, stand your ground. Then see if you can count to ten before being arrested under Section 5 of the Public Order Act.

Claude #59

Have you run out of reasoned argument, so soon?

Claude @59 – I, for one, welcome our new underwear-checking overlords.

Actually, back when I were a lad and learning how to drink in pubs, advice such as “avoid trouble by avoiding the football crowd” was what we’d have called ‘simple common sense’. In fact, it might well have been my dear old Dad (no leftie, I can assure you) who passed it down.

But now I come to this LibCon thread and find we’ve actually been indulging in ultra-leftist anti-freedom PC thought crime of the most evil kind. Which is a big worry. It really is high time to round us up, take us to the stadium, and shoot us – for our own good and the good of the country.

…and you too Neil?

(ps, you’re not on the left, you’re definately on the right)

I don’t know about the politicisation of the police. However, it was the darling of the Right, Winston Churchill who first politicised the pub. Pubs which could open between 5.30am and half past midnight were restricted to midday to 2.30pm and 6.30 to 9.30pm daily in 1914. Intolerable to have the working classes in the pubs enjoying themselves when they could be in the factory making armaments to blow up Johnny Foreigner.

Richard, you should read “Man walks into a pub”. It details the history of the English pub, its drinks and why they differ to Scots and Irish tipples.*

The pub was politicised waaay before Churchil though. There was a constant battle between the temperance society and the brewers. The battleground was always the working classes’ watering holes and what they drank.

As a result, beer was taxed more than upper class drinks such as wine, port or spitits. And the pub was restricted far more than the gentleman’s clubs.

The woking class needed saving from themselves and there was an upper class army prepared to do it. This continues today with arguments over cheap booze(who will be hit hardest?) and the police telling the nasty little oiks not to wear England shirts to England televised football matches.

Sorry, (sit down Claude, I know) the police are NOT telling the proles not to wear England shirts, they’re “advising” the publicans to introduce a “dress code, (eg. no football shirts)” during England matches (wonder what footie shirts they might wear to that?).

It’s gone on for ages. The damned working class just won’t stay out of sight!

*http://www.amazon.co.uk/Man-Walks-Into-Pub-Sociable/dp/0330412205

Without getting into England football shirt argument I agree with you about the recurring theme of middle class angst at the thought of the working classes enjoying themselves. The Puritans never died, they just metamorphosed into a concerned middle class who badger the working classes about too much sex, too much alcohol and horror of horrors they take drugs. Let us mobilise huge state resources to stop them, it is for their own good you understand.

To a point I agree with you Richard.
From the days of Maggie and major who wanted us to all have middle class values. Own our own home and not live in council house. This is irritating especially when you hear say Heffer go on about thugs from the working classes in England football tops.
Although I would say their is an historical argument to say that the British working classes have a strong puritanical streak. In fact you can argue that the Labour party’s roots are more firmly based in methodism than social liberalism.

Sorry
there is an

Also lads Football hooligans never wear tops.
Their dress is stone island.
If a slightly overweight guy in an England enters your pub. He more likely to a history teacher or accountant. If a guy comes in checked hat with a rat like face, leg it

This thread really is hysterically funny. Because it reveals the ludicrous tory trolls in all their pompous glory. They come on a Left / liberal site to course trouble, and then they are SHOCKED, SHOCKED that they read something that offends them. Fucking hilarious.

Well guess what. Don’t waste your time and our time by coming on here. Hint, I don’t go to Tory home or the daily Torygraph or Jerking off with Jeremy Clarkson or some such right wing sites. Because I have no interested in reading the total clap trap that is written there. If you don’t like liberal views don’t come on a liberal site, simple. And if you do, don’t complain that you don’t like what is written.

Yeah, Sally, right on!

If they don’t agree with wot we say, then them’s just hillarius and arrogant, an’ stuf. Trolls and Tories shudn’t reed our liberal, rite thinkin’ ways an’ if they did an’ got upset, then it’s ther fault for reedin it in the first place, ‘cus they must’ve known what we wuz sayinn’ before they red it… innnit?

LOL

As Voltaire once said, and I paraphrase, “I don’t agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it, even though you are a complete, absolute and utter dipstick.”

71

Classic troll behaviour.

Go on site you don’t agree with. kick up a fuss about something that nobody asked you to read. Fake outrage, and then when you get called on it give tedious speech about freedom.

I would give you 1 out of 10 for that effort.

Sally, can I point out that you have not once made an argumentative proposition in this whole thread?

You have simply vented bile and venom: and ridiculed those that dared hold a mirror up to your hate filled opinions. At least you seem to have dropped your theory that 6bn people think 50m people, living in what is known as England, are arrogant?

Has this exchange caused you to be less confident with such large numbers, or has your bigoted perception been tempered somewhat? I doubt either, but live in hope.

I can’t stop you from hating, but maybe I’ve shined a light on the ridiculous basis for your thoughts. I don’t expect you to disagree with me; I only expect a thought-void rant. Fill your boots!

PS there’s nothing ‘tedious’ about freedom and I’m not looking for any kind of score from the likes of you

I’m going on my hols today, sans laptop, so can’t post anymore.

Remember, if you don’t stand up for your freedoms, there are plenty who’ll take them away.

Just because you think they’re just a bunch of oiks from the council houses, you should still defend them (and not the police) when something like this happens.

Just because you think they’re just a bunch of oiks from the council houses, you should still defend them (and not the police) when something like this happens

I think most people on the site are on the side of the oiks TH. In fact it will be the innocent oiks in the pub who would be attacked if the police were not there to defend their humen rights. In some ways it shows the police are looking after their interests. Or do you want to go down the route of the states where the death of a black youth is accepted and not acted upon.
Also Claude’s point is that the story was a non starter and was used by the tabloid press to create an environment of resentment and hate

Claude: “It doesnt exist in France, it doesn’t exist in Italy, it doesn’t exist in Spain.”

You’re right. So what is it about England in particular?

I’ve lived in three countries outside England: Germany, Canada and Scotland. The jingoism in those countries is far less. But those countries have their own parliaments, governments and civic institutions, they have ways of articlulating their nationalism outside of the tribalism of football. For England and the English, sport is all we have, subsumed into Britain and Britishness as we are.

I would say that it comes down to self-confidence.

Scotland’s expression of national identity has become a lot less reactionary (less defined against the other: The English) than it was prior to devolution. A nation needs legitimate democratic expression otherwise it finds undemocratic outlets: Xenophobia, BNP, EDL, etc.