Our new overlords are here – open thread


8:33 pm - May 11th 2010

by Sunny Hundal    


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Discuss thoughts on the new government here.

Some policies and posts confirmed are here.

POLICIES
– Tories to put on hold (or drop) marriage taxbreak
– Tories put on hold IHT for rich people
– Libdems drop commitment to amnesty for illegals.
– A tax cut for the lowest paid moves up the agenda

POSTS
Confirmed
William Hague – foreign sec
Andrew Lansley to be health secretary
William Hague foreign secretary
Liam Fox will be Defence Secretary

Not confirmed
Nick Clegg – deputy PM (not confirmed)
Vince Cable chief secretary to the treasury (not confirmed)
David Laws Education secretary (not confirmed)
Secretary of State for Scotland: Danny Alexander

Henry Macory: No 10 press job.

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About the author
Sunny Hundal is editor of LC. Also: on Twitter, at Pickled Politics and Guardian CIF.
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Story Filed Under: Blog ,Elections2010

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Reader comments


Could still be a minority tory govt!?

Nah. Will start live-blogging actual announcements as they come in.

Did someone say Chris Huhne will take over the Home Sec job?

3. rwillmsen

Back to the Tories and the Whigs, then, and it’s as though the Labour Movement never even existed…now for the Welfare State!

Minority government and then another election plz.

I for one look forward to the day we can all get nostalgic about what a good prime minister Gordon Brown was and how good things were when he was still in charge.

Or “tomorrow”, as it’s also known.

Sunny, Labour let this happen. There could’ve been a progressive alliance, but Labour MPs of both the right and the left, cheered on by Labour bloggers and tweeters, destroyed any chances of it happening. They did it so they could blame the Lib Dems for what the Tories will do in government, and use it against them at the next election.

Thanks Labour: you let the Tories in. This is not the fault of the Lib Dems. Whatever they chose, there would’ve been a Tory government UNLESS Labour made the progressive alliance a reality.

I totally and utterly agree with Mark L @7.

It’s thanks to “senior” Labour people like Blankett, Burnham, Reid and Alexander that the door was slammed shut to an agreement with the Liberal Democrats.

Let’s not forget that 24 hours ago, following Brown’s resignation, the money was on a centre-left coalition, until the above mentioned people (plus Harman and Dianne Abbott and Tom Harris) turned all arsy on the LibDems and electoral reform.

These people didnt have a problem toeing the party line for 13 years. They supported war criminals and City deregulation. They spat on manifesto pledges and turned their back on their natural powerbase. They had no problem doing that.

Now, suddenly, they’re getting all prim and prissy and principled… Unbelievable.

9. Cheesy Monkey

Anybody else think that if you tore of Cameron’s face, you’d be staring at a posh Terminator?

10. rwillmsen

“This is not the fault of the Lib Dems. ”

Exactly, well put, the suggestion that this coalition of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats has anything whatsoever to do with the Liberal Democrats is both a slur and a fallacy.

@10

Diane Abbott
Tom Harris
Andy Burnham
Sadiq Khan
Jack Straw
John Reid
David Blunkett

Lib Dems are they?

The Tories would’ve been in power, whatever the Lib Dems did.

There was one chance to stop the Tories: the LibLab alliance.

Do you think the Lib Dems would choose a referendum on AV over a law on AV plus a referendum on PR?

Labour fucked the deal. They fucked the country.

@Jonn – why wait until tomorrow? The reminiscing can begin now as it’s been at least a full 5 minutes since GB’s speech.

@8

Spot on, Claude. A lot of those people voted for the Iraq war, but they couldn’t vote to keep the Tories out and bring in PR, just because they want to bash the Lib Dems up a bit?

I am ashamed for voting Labour last week. I did it to maximise the chances of a hung parliament, so there would be enough Labour MPs to form an alliance with the Lib Dems. They had a chance. It could’ve worked. There were no principled grounds upon which to NOT EVEN TRY the LibLab pact.

I understand that when I voted Labour, I didn’t write down on my ballot paper that it was a vote for a LibLab alliance. But I still feel ashamed and regret my vote.

Labour showed no willingness for an alliance.

14. Chris Baldwin

Farewell Mr Brown and thank you for your service as Chancellor and Prime Minister. I don’t look forward to the coming Tory government, but we in the Labour Party will regroup and hopefully return to government in a few years with a more progressive and civil-libertarian agenda.

@9 – yes. If he gets into Madame Tussauds it will be the first time the waxwork will look more realistic than the subject.

I hated Brown – and that speech was shameless, honestly, praising the troops he failed to equip, and bringing the kids on after, shameless and bogus to the last – but I am depressed already.

16. rwillmsen

And the Libdems could easily have abandoned the Tories to their fate, ie. to form a short-lived minority government. They chose not to because they preferred not to. One of the reasons for this is that they share the Tories’ hostility towards the organised Labour movement and the Welfare State, as we shall now see.

17. Cheesy Monkey

@11 – Agreed to some extent, but some had differing reasons to the others. Scottish tribalism an insurmountable obstacle, fears for Labour severing socialist link another. But desire to retain FPTP common thread with dissenters.

18. Charlieman

Numbers, numbers, numbers — a rainbow coalition had a small UK MP majority and the nationalist parties regard themselves as outwith the English political scheme. Thus it was doomed.

Within a Con/LibDem government, legislation will be discussed by parliamentary committees. Committees will be the agents for change. Appointments will no longer be about connections (brown nose) — membership will depend on the MPs’ ability to debate and negotiate.

The rules have changed. Party whips will adjust to the new rules and find MPs who understand them both. John Reid? John Who?

Watching Cameron’s speech outside No.10 has nearly made my mind up to join the Labour Party; with Brown gone hopefully they can get back to being centre-left again.

Personally I also think it would have been better for the LibDems to leave the Tories alone in a minority government. However…first let’s wait and see what the libDems have been promised, the terms and all that.

If, say, the Nick Clegg and his party agreed to a coalition on the basis of some rickety “inquiry on electoral reform” or similar, then I can safely say they’ve lost my vote.

But like I said, let’s wait a little and see.

I do feel uncomfortable as a LibDem sympathiser that they’re propping up a party including some appalling people; a party which, in Europe, is allie dto “nutters” to quote a certain Liberal Democrat.

21. James Rathbone

Time to batten down the hatches and prepare for cuts I guess. The one positive is that the election showed a dislike for Cameron’s ideology – the reaction to the ‘Big Society’ idea of his for example – and once he tries to put it into force will hopefully turn away from the Conservatives.

In the mean time however, we can only hope that the Lib-Dem’s will act as a moderating influence on them.

22. WhatNext!?

Talk about typical British negativity ……
If there was one thing that united all parties, it was Brown Must Go, and now he’s gone. Maybe Cameron will be worse, but ……

Don’t get me wrong – in principle I think the idea of a progressive coalition would have been a wonderful one, but regardless of who we each hold responsible I think the practicality just wasn’t there.

It just remains to be seen how far the Tory/Liberal coalition will go along to get along – the Evening Boris was reporting Cable as having said he would not oppose any Tory public service cuts, but it’s not exactly the most reliable source in the world…

I think that the Labour Party leadership and grassroots, and to some extent their Liberal counterparts, are going to have to play a waiting game, and in the case of the former hopefully bring some new blood to the table.

The one positive that has come from all of this is that the combined buckets of shit flung by Murdoch Junior and Dacre were not enough to propel Cameron into office with a majority – and hopefully this can be taken as a sign that their power is on the wane, and that having progressive beliefs is not something we need to hide to mollify them any more.

17 – the organised labour movement is a dwindling force.

How are they going to get on when it comes down to the EU…?

The real Liberal conspiracy

@25 – I’m restocking my popcorn supplies!

According to rumour LD have persuaded Con to drop the IHT cut & bring tax threshold to £10K which as someone who not too long ago was working on the min wage I welcome.

Still predict another election within 6 – 10 months.

25 – I believe the Lib Dems called for repatriation of powers in the Orange Book.

We’re boned.

After a brief flirtation with mainstream democracy – I give up.

@11 Grow up.
The Lib dems have made their bed now; they should lie in it.

So: At a time of unprecedented market failure (financial, environmental), we have a government of deregulators. At a time when the state has saved the day (for now) financially, and is a key part of our only hope environmentally, we have a government of ‘savage’ cutters. At a time when we supposedly live in a classless societies, we have a government of toffs who believe that they were ‘born to rule’ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7664461/David-Cameron-born-to-be-prime-minister.html ).
Millions voted to keep the Tories out – and the LibDems have voted them in.
And Labour let this happen, shamefully, by abandoning prospects for the ‘progressive alliance’.
A PLAGUE ON ALL YOUR HOUSES. None of these three Parties are worth our spit.
It’s going to be a long long haul. The fightback begins here. I’m proud to be a Green tonight; and ashamed of the pathetic political system we live in, and of the useless politicians who are swapping from the Government to the Opposition benches and vice versa. Who are leading us to economic and environmental disaster.

From Con Home:

Foreign Secretary: William Hague.

Health Secretary: Andrew Lansley.

Chancellor of the Exchequer: George Osborne

Chief Secretary to the Treasury: Vince Cable

Schools Secretary: David Laws (not Michael Gove).

Rumours are for Clegg Deputy PM and Huhne for Home Office.

“- Libdems drop commitment to amnesty for illegals.”

Wahay! Nice to see the Lib Dems bargain away the policy that would benefit the most vulnerable as early as possible.

Lab has done the best for the country and themselves. The markets won’t blow a gasket because the gov will have a majority but take my word they con/lib gov will emplode and let lab in within 12-18 months

Clegg and Cameron no doubt get on swimmingly. However this is not a done deal yet as either party can still put the kibosh on the coalition.

The most amusing thing out of all this is that the Conservatives said vote LibDem and get Labour. Labour said vote LibDem and get the Conservatives.

As things stand, however, it seems that if you vote Conservative what you actually get is the Liberal Democrats.

36. Fat Tory

welcome aboard, chaps

clegg will make a fine fag for dave

tally ho!

“Nice to see the Lib Dems bargain away the policy that would benefit the most vulnerable as early as possible.”

Because Labour were great on immigration were they?

Cheers tribal Labour Scots. The country would be better off without you, the left and centre would have to realign. Better a Cameron government than sharing power, eh.

39. Gaf the Horse

I didn’t campaign and vote for the Lib Dems to get a bloody Tory government. I’m out of here. Any one fancy joining the Green Party?

Haha, don’t lecture me, I’ve got the being nice to immigrants’ scouts badge.

But come one, we had one chance this parliament to improve the situation in this country for migrants and its gone.

In 2008 there was a net outflow of non-EU, non-family reunion, non-student migrants. How do you cap that Mr Cameron?

Its going to be rubbish.

Labour fucked the deal. They fucked the country.

There was no do-able deal to fuck. The Liberals fucked the country. Them and everyone else spouting this ‘progressive majority’ shite. How do you feel now? What exactly did you think you were voting for? You should have stuck to the Party!

@Rupert Read

The Lib Dems would’ve preferred the Progressive Alliance. Labour was offering them AV and a referendum on something proportional. Why on earth would they choose what the Tories were offering them over that? Why would Clegg sign his own political death warrant by jumping into bed with the Tories, unless the only other option was to let the Tories rule with no check on their power?

Labour fucked the Progressive Alliance. When given a choice between trying to make a difference to this country, and bring in PR, working the with the Lib Dems – and just saying, bugger it, let the Lib Dems take the blame, we will be back – they took the easy way out.

They didn’t even try to negotiate with the Lib Dems. At least the Lib Dems are trying to be constructive, although I have to say, Osborne as Chancellor and Hague as Foreign Secretary sounds like a total fucking nightmare and not worth joining the government at all.

Unless Clegg gets Home Secretary, the Lib Dems just threw away their soul for nothing.

Will they join the Tories in the European Parliament too?! How long before that blows up in their face having just hear Bill Cash

I can’t believe that Labour didn’t even try to stay in power. On TV we’ve seen a procession of Labour MPs being sanguine, some even quite cheerful, about giving way to the Tories. A deal could have been done and an attempt could have been made to actually reform our grotesque voting system and cement a liberal left consensus. But Labour would prefer to let in the Tories. Blind tribalism at its most stupid.

A lot of Labour supporters including a fair few here here also seem to believe that Labour will be back in a couple of years. There is no guarantee this will happen. The Tories are utterly ruthless in holding onto to power and they could be in power for a long time.

All the damage they do to society in the meantime will be partly the fault of Labour.

“You should have stuck to the Party!”

HAHHAHAHA!!!!!

The same Party that:

– murdered civilians in Afghanistan
– murdered civilians in Iraq
– brought in ID cards
– brought in control orders
– privatised everything it could
– brought in tuition fees
– pandered to the Murdoch press on every issue

Yeah, should’ve stuck with that.

@45
The same Party that:

– murdered civilians in Afghanistan
I think you will find thats the taliban.

@bubby

Hear hear. There was a slim chance at pulling together the progressive alliance. Slim – but it was there. But no, what matters more to Labour is that they let the Lib Dems take the blame, then presume somehow they will inherit the government again at some point in the future.

Labour takes the same attitude towards power that the Tories do: it doesn’t matter if we fuck up from time to time, when we lose and the other lot get in, at some point they will become unpopular enough, people will come flocking back to us!

After years of Lib council in Liverpool the city has overwelmingly voted that they are a party that is more concerned with power and PR than social care hopefuly the rest of the country will catch up with us sooner rather than later.

– brought in tuition fees
Scrapping tuition fees, would be a regressive move.
Tuition fees are essentially a subsiidy middle/upper class.

50. redpesto

‘Our new overloards are here’ – first one with photographic evidence of their true lizard identity gets a peerage. Or to paraphrase the League of Gentlemen: ‘You’re my wife now, Nick..’

Meanwhile…

I reckon David Davis for Home Office and a LibDem for Justice – Grayling to get palmed off with a department where he won’t cock things up any further. And Gove had better not get the DCMS or the BBC and the Arts are doomed.

51. greensocialist

Hahahaha. The Lib Dems choose a coalition with the Tories and the LD fanatics here claim it was somehow Labour’s fault.

Now I’m really looking forward to the next election, when Clegg and his shower of unprincipled chancers are rightfully wiped off the electoral map.

How will the referendum on PR work? The Tories will campaign against it on the basis of what? That it means for weak government and coalitions like the one they are in? I really do not get it. Confidence and supply would have worked, more concessions could ultimately have been forged…

Absolutely Mark. It’s contemptuous of democracy and the electorate. The system we have its takes four times as many votes to elect a Lib Dem as a Labour or Conservative is indefensible.

We had perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity to change the voting system and Labour woudn’t even entertain it and would prefer to let in the Tories.

There were a fair few left wing people who said that Labour would soon be back in after the 1979 election.

Andrew:

brought in tuition fees
Scrapping tuition fees, would be a regressive move.
Tuition fees are essentially a subsiidy middle/upper class.

That wasn’t the point – it was about raising the cash and charging the students every time there was a funding or economic crisis…which means fees are going up now that the election’s over. The only question is by how much (remember: Clegg reduced the ‘committment’ to scrapping tuition fees to an ‘aspiration’).

Jesus – it’s barely been about ten minutes and you people are fighting like cats in a sack already!

Look, the electorate made their decision and this outcome was the most likely one.

I’ve now updated the post with policies and people. And written a new one about why the left and liberals need to stop fighting with each other.

What a lot of people don’t understand is that lab would have fucked the country and especialy England if they had done a deal. The markets have made it quite clear that a weak gov is not an option and lets face it the financial sectors have us over a barrol. England would have been especialy shafted had a rainbow alliance been formed because backroom deals would have had to be made with the Scotts and Welsh which we all know would mean central gov handing more money to them.

I hate the coment the electorate voted for this. Not anywhere on the ballot paper was there a box to tick for a hung parliment. The same number of votes for each party could have been cast in a different configeration and the outcome would have been different.

I feel sorry for all the voters who voted con or lib dem as neither are getting what they voted for.
Its amazing how weak principals become when the carrot of power is dangled infront of them.

Look, the electorate made their decision and this outcome was the most likely one.

Do you think the Conservatives would have taken that view had the positions been reversed?

Labour didn’t want to play hardball. Like the Democrats in the US they lack the ruthlessness of their opponents. They should have fought. Polls are showing a majority in favour of PR .

The Conservatives will pull the plug before any vote on PR call a second election and probably win a working majority.

This was the moment for voting reform. It may not come around again in our lifetimes.

Sunny @ 56

Let it happen – it’s bound to… it’s a result as immensely disappointing as it was somewhat inevitable.

The prefered PR choice of the lib dems will give us an even more undemocratic process than we have now.

Well, I reckon that Baron Mandelson’s fingerprints are all over the ‘scuppering’ of the Lib-Lab pact.

Some senior figure in the Labour Party has calculated that driving the LibDems in to the arms of the Conservatives will split the LibDems’ activists and support, and destroy them at the polls.

They’re prepared to play the ‘long game’ – they know that this government is going to make savage, savage cuts. And become deeply unpopular as a result.
They calculate that all left-leaning non-aligned/’floating’ voters will be so shell-shocked by the experience of living under Cameron that they will fall back in to voting Labour for a generation afterwards, on the grounds that ‘they are the only Party who will keep the Tories out’.

As for this pact itself:

I am sure that the Tories will use the LibDems as a scapegoat for any failures on the part of this government. I am also certain that, as soon as they are sure that they can secure their own outright majority, they will call an election and campaign for ‘a mandate for strong government’. And that the Tory press – along with Fox News UK – will support them all the way.

A Con-Dem pact enables Labour to blame the LibDems for ‘letting the Tories in’, and the Conservatives to ‘blame’ the LibDems for ‘holding back the government’s attempts to institute much-needed reform’.
To win an election, it is only necessary to gull a hefty proportion of the public in to voting for you.
In a country full of devoted fans of Come Dining With Dancing Soapstar Superstars On Ice, it isn’t *that* hard to attack the complex, nuanced compromises of coalition government from any angle that you choose.

This sustained attack from both sides will, in my opinion, will be the end of the Liberal Democrats.

Or, to sum my feelings up, cue Admiral Ackbar.

The question is not about having electoral reform but what form it takes. The lib dems prefered meathod of transerable votes is a farce to democracy and if you look at how the 2010 election would have looked had this method been in place be mindful that this would have given them more seats that any other of the options ( they must have a member who has passed maths GCSE). They are not so much commited to fairness but power. I don’t want a voter from another constituancy having there vote transfered to my constituancy. AV has to be the best option.

64. Arthur Seaton

Would be nice to see those on the liberal-left who encouraged a Liberal Democrat vote acknowledge that they made a mistake, and that they won’t be doing so again………..

@jen01 (post 63)

As (ostensibly) horribly complicated as it is, STV does NOT work by transferring people’s votes across constituency boundaries.

Various methods of voting are explained on

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=5

Well said Arthor Seaton

sunny:

Jesus – it’s barely been about ten minutes and you people are fighting like cats in a sack already!

It’s the grief talking (or commenting, or whatever).

If you want a comment on people/policies: Hague/Cameron to pick a doomed fight over ‘renegotiation’ with the rest of the EU; mystery of how to pay for Vince’s tax cuts not yet revealed.

68. Leonard Hatred

Look, one thing is clear – a Liberal/Tory coalition is a damn sight better than a Tory majority.

Whoever first applied the “Ashes to Ashes” concept to the election was bizarrely prophetic.

We have a Conservative PM with a “wolf in smooth sheep’s Saville Row tailoring” manifesto, a Labour council back in Liverpool (amongst other gains), and we Scots facing a (probable) government that only got 35.6% of the votes cast up here (18.9% LIbDem + 16.7% Conservative).

Almost the bloody 1980s all over again…although I won’t make the mistake of wearing grey, slip-on plastic shoes this time around.

@Gem (post63)

Under STV several constituencies are combined so when you strip it all down votes are indead transfered to other constinuencies. Given that constituancies with different social needs will boarder each other and be grouped together a vote from a more afluant area may well count in a more deprived area this does not deliver democracy nor does it support the idea of local communities having power over their areas.

There is one simple reason why the lib dems choose this system and that is because if someone chooses lab as there 1st then they will not choose tory as their second and if someone chooses tory as their 1st they will not choose labour as there second. Lib dems will be in the strongest position when second votes start getting transfered around.

Given that we will in some way end up changing our electoral system i wish one of the parties would have the balls to bring in comp voting and the right to vote for 16+17 as they can pay tax and die for their country so they also have a right to a say.

@ Andy Glimour

Liverpool always return a Labour lead council when the cons are in power this is how we new on Friday that the con/lib aliance was in the bag.(ha) The worst thing for the North West, Scotland and Wales is that the cons don’t care about us as they know the will never get a foot in the door so the Liverpool council will have to fight tooth and nail with central not to end up back in the eighties. (I have got my shell suit out of the loft just in case)
The con/lib gov will put all of its resorces in the more affluant south as that is where its votes are and the north will once again become the poor relative.
The saving grace for Scotland and Wales is that they have devolution so have at least some control. If i had my way the North West would have it as well.

I think it is palpable nonsense to suggest the numbers added up for a ‘progressive alliance’ and that Labour is to blame for the failure to achieve it. It would have been too fragile in itself, and the unlimited ferocity of the attacks from all quarters about its legitimacy would have imperilled it from day one. Geesh – I would have liked it, but the numbers were not there.
Let us not forget that the LDs had a choice between full coalition and offering specific forms of support. It chose the former and over the next few days, we may find out what their calculations were.
I would also re-iterate the point others have made scattered across various blogs. We have had many examples of Lib/Con coalitions at local level as well as Liberal Democrat Council to which we should have given some attention in these last few days. Then we could have seen how they actually campaign on issues, and not only formulate policy but also implement it. Then some of the discussions could have been more grounded.

@45

When I was I child I thought as a child and spake as a child. But when I became fully-grown I realised the Green party is for people who aren’t really interested in politics.

@jen01 (post 70)

“Under STV several constituencies are combined so when you strip it all down votes are indead transfered to other constinuencies”

I misunderstood your first post.
Whilst what you say about several current constituencies making up one larger new constituency is true, it’s not as though one’s current Westminster constituency is some sort of Fact of Nature, is it?
I mean, have you looked at the boundaries for them? They are totally convoluted, and the final units have little or no geographical or cultural unity.
You do know that they’re re-drawn every few years, don’t you?

Personally, I think that the most important electoral reform would be to separate the Executive from the Legislature. At the moment, we have to expect the House of Commons to be both.
One cannot vote for a new government AND a local representative at the same time. Well, one *can*, but this just means that one’s ‘local representative’ actually just turns out to be a stooge, beholden to the wishes of his/her Party Machine.

Personally, I would elect the Executive using multiple-member constituencies based on the current ‘super-constituencies’ used in elections to the European parliament. But I’d use STV, and I’d have an awful lot more members than we do for Euro elections (although fewer than there are currently members in the House of Commons).

I’d elect the Legislature (the local representatives) using single member constituencies like the current Westminster ones (although the current boundaries are based on data that is ten years old, out of date, and they need to be re-drawn again), but I’d use AV to elect my local representatives.
I would not diminish their number, as that is a dilution of democracy, and a transfer of power from the ordinary citizen to the Party machine.

“i wish one of the parties would have the balls to bring in comp voting and the right to vote for 16+17”

I’d ONLY endorse compulsory voting IF every ballot paper had a ‘None of the Above’ option on it.
There’s no reason (other than the unwillingness of professional politicians and their Party machines) that this couldn’t be done in my single-member Legislature constituencies (or for elections to our current Westminster ones), but it could prove awkward if choosing a Party to form the next Government in my Executive elections.
Without a ‘None of the Above’ option, compulsory voting merely enables politicians to claim a ‘mandate from the electorate’ when no such thing exists.
And, if you are going to allow voters to merely spoil their ballot papers, then there is no point at all in forcing them to turn up to do it.

As for voting at age 16 or 17, I am dead against it.
I remember what I was like at 16 and 17, and the uninformed opinions that I held at the time, when I had lived the whole of my life in my parents’ house, and had absolutely *no* knowledge of the ‘real world’.

With regards to your point about 16 year-olds paying tax, anyone who buys anything (other than food or children’s clothes) is paying tax (VAT).
An eight year-old buying a toy is paying tax. Should eight year-olds then have the vote?
As for your point about 16 and 17 year-olds being allowed to die for their country*, I agree that it isn’t right, and I’d change it. I’d make it illegal to send the under-18’s in to combat zones, or to conscript them.

*Dying for one’s country is, famously, NOT how you win a war. You win a war by making the *other* poor bastard die for *his* country.
😉

@74

I remember what I was like at 16 and 17, and the uninformed opinions that I held at the time, when I had lived the whole of my life in my parents’ house, and had absolutely *no* knowledge of the ‘real world’.

Of course, the same argument could be used for taking away the vote from plenty of people over the age of 18… plenty of my (mid-twenties, since you ask) peers have what one might call “uninformed opinions” etc; the point is education!

Just an update cos the OP is out of date now (events moving as fast as they are):

Clegg has been confirmed as Deputy PM. Osbourne is Chancellor (fuck…). LibDems are dropping the mansion tax. LibDems are accepting a cap on immigration (as well as the aforementioned “no amnesty”). 5 positions in Cabinet for LDs (inc Clegg). Home Office yet to be confirmed.

Depressing.

Shuggy @ 73,

When I was I child I thought as a child and spake as a child. But when I became fully-grown I realised the Green party is for people who aren’t really interested in politics.

I am not a Green, however, I think that insults anyone that strays from your Left -v- Right narrative.

I agree about AGW. Do you doubt it?

It tends to cut across the old divisions. It may, or may not be, a truth, but it is certainly something we should do our best to avoid. The precautionary principle seems to be quite a good idea when you are dealing with our demise as a species.

I doubt you, Shuggy. I think you haven’t a clue what the risks are….

78. craig abbess

I am totally appalled and disgusted, that the majority of the electorate who did not want a Conservative Government and who vote for Centre to Left parties and policies, the majority of us do, the Conservatives have few friends (or didn’t till Lib/Dems sold out 4 power not realising the Conservatives will throw millions at campaign against AV and have Tory n Murdoch papers backing them and how theyll never get STV now that they wont be trusted after selling out to Tories). So maj voted for parties other then Conservative and I’m fairly sure maj voted to keep them out, and Labour had more friends ore people in common over rest of parties than tories and libdems had more friends or used to before this lack of democracy ie the maj of public have been gone against the maj view of public has been gone against and we end up being betrayed by a so called liberal or democratic party and by labour mps who showed they dont like idea of a democratic system and are more concerend with their jobs than protecting maj of public who didnt vote for the conservative govt and most of us deliberately voted against them and i live in one of r marginal seats on conservatives hit list and yet we managed to hold them off thats why they didnt get maj and yet this is the way we are repayed total disgrace the labour mps who are against a democratic voting system and who ruined a chance at a centre to left alliance and libdems who betrayed the maj of voters who didnt want conservative govt and most who voted against it should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves you are undemocratic and didnt protect or represent the maj view in the whole of uk and one final matter another thing clegg the traitor and rest of lib dem sell out connned by conservatives leadership prob didnt spot either by cameron talking about respecting weak and infirm that was to protect themselves from accusations from being cruel or unfair to sick or incapacitated folk when they first come after everyone on incapacity benefit im sure that was cover for that theyll be making folk on incapacities life hell in future and youll either have to collapse or have heart attack to still be able to stay on it oh and incase you didnt know about real conservative party find out about young british future their youth movement cameron made out he didnt even know name yet later an aide of his let slip they just didnt know much about them ie they knew of them not what cameron said he said he never knew name even so big lie there and they trained at least 11 of candidates they had at election eric pickles and liam fox used to attend meetings too so how come he never knew name of group yet later it came out they just didnt know much about it ie he did know leader of ybf used to say the nhs was complete waste of money and saw water boarding as good thing seeing it as fun i think thats tory youth for you their becoming more right wing and thats where candidates got trained change change he said so many times yet shows conservatives havent changed theyve just conned libdems whove sold us out as have labour who show they dont believe in democratic voting either and whove left maj including us here who held on at tory target and who stopped them winning maj theyve left us to rot and suffer attacks by con selfish right wing two faced hypocrytical b yet not much more hypocrytical than so called liberals n democrats who wouldnt have been able to have anything but minority which wouldnt have lasted long unless theyd sold out to them ruining any chance of pr and prob of av too cos of all money tories will throw against them and press against em too some way to be repayed for holding them off and stopping them getting a maj and just at time we could have formed centreleft alliance it was poss ofcourse cos noway snp would ever vote to back tories when theyd lose seats b punished by scottish voters if they did and plaed would hardly ever back conservatives either and sdlp the green and the independant unionist would have been on side too but when it was poss to form such a centre left allnc and we could have finished conservatives off for ever what do the so called lib dems do and the labour party who show they dont believe in democratic vote they both sell out the maj of voters and totally kick us in the teeth in total; betrayal thanks what a disgrace well never vote 4 you again and we realise well never get democratic vote so goodness knows what well do now

79. craig abbess

The numbers were there for a centre/left coalition the Tories could only really rely on 316 seats max 307 (if win thirsk which they prob will) + 8 DUP + the 1 conservative/unionist alliance.

A Lab/Lib plus others coalition wouldnt have needed the SNP or Plaed, it could’ve beaten the Conservatives maximum 316 by combining the Lab and Lib seats 258 plus 57 plus the 3 SDLP who are usually very loyal to Labour plus the Green and the independant unionist who has said shell never back conservatives that adds to 320 (beating the Conservatives maximum of 316) without a need for the SNP or Plaed who’d prob abstain if they didnt vote way of Lab/Lib plus others alliance, they wouldn’t vote for the Conservatives well the SNP never would imagine hell theyd get in Scotland if they helped tories theyd lose seats be punished if they helped tories and dont think plaed would hardly ever back the conservatives either lot of welsh hate them too whys no one though of poss backlash against snp anmd plaed why snp would never have helped cons and why plaed would rarely if at all aswell whys no one thought of that so numbers were there but just at time we couldve formed centre/left alliance finished tories off for good what happens but labour mps betray maj in this country who voted anti tory as did the lib dems selling out 4 power and leave maj of public who never wanted tory govt and who lib dems sold out to for cheap deal offer of av when theyll prob not get it cos of money tories will throw at campaign against it and how almost all tory press will be against them now and how theyll never get stv now either cos electorate wont trust them after selling out to conservatives so weve been betrayed by both the libdems selling out for just av referendum really whichll be easily defeated with tory money n press n theyll not get real stv pr after selling out n labour mps show they prefer an undemocratic system and are more concerned with their jobs than protecting maj of public who never wanted cameron enough of us saw through him were not all stupid and fell for the change change rubbish we knew he wasnt giving us any policy detail and when he did he got caught out quickly and darent look back at clegg and brown looking worried brow furrowed yet at end of day clegg is conned by them and sells out when he wont get any kind of pr now and labour show they prefer having undemocratic system and leave maj including those who held off cons in lab/con marginals main reason tories nevr got maj to get in anyway some way to get repayed what a disgrace and the numbers were there for centreleft alliance all along

80. craig abbess

To all LibDem supporters and the LibDem above, think he was anyway. You won’t get STV now. You’ve sold out to the Conservatives who maj of public across UK didn’t want as Govt and who maj of us hate.

You’ve been conned the dirty side of them will come out in future.

You won’t even get AV. They’ll throw unmpteen millions at it and have all tory commentators and press on their side campaigning against it whic they always knew they were gonna do before they offered you the referendum and were v likely to win their campaign against AV.

And of course 16/17 year olds shouldn’t be allowed to vote. We’ve got enough idiots voting who are either just plain thick or ignornat and don’t understands anything about politics and are so easily conned by the Conservatives or by their press. Because I’m democratic, just wish our politicians were, I believe in allowing everytone to vote even though rest of us have to suffer for years afterwards because of their stupid voting and getting conned, but it’s getting really difficult to still stick to idea that everyone should still be allowed to vote, although I still do stick to that in name of democracy but then as this is so cleartly not a democracy, how our voting ssytem is northing like representative of maj view or opinion across the whole of UK aand how the parties that should help and stand by us betray us ie Clegg and his hang and Labour should we really stick to allowing all those above 18 even totally politically unedeucated and who are so easily conned to still vote when rest of us have to suffer for so many years between terms sometimes for r long time cos theyre so thick takesd them ages to get point maybe itsa time we should only allow those to vote who can pass tesat of political knowledge pass test to show quite bit of knowledge of politcal ideologies and philosophies and particular p[olicies where parties are telling us they stnad at time though ofcourse its prob justlie or maybe they should have to have iq above 120 though dont think iq test is best way to prove intelligence

Its disappointing to see the Lib-Dems behave this way, but no real surprise, the knuckles draggers in the Labour Party almost gave them no choice with their comments yesterday. Reid, Blunket, et. al. are an absolute disgrace with their torpedoing of the progressive alliance, which despite all the above wittering would have held together.

However, every cloud has a silver lining, the LD’s are screwed in the short to medium tern anywhere north of Watford, but particularly in Scotland and the North East. The Scottish Parliament election is next year and who here cant see a wipe out of the LD’s. The prospects of the SNP picking up a lot of their seats is good, and I’m sure the Tories attitude towards Scotland will just help push that along. Labour may well eb seen as impotent after this little debacle, so perhapsiIndependence by 2015?

Scottish independence by 2015 – we can but dream.

Less than a day of tory government and unemployment is already its highest since december 1994.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10109965.stm

tsk tsk

84. John Palmer

80. craig abbess

Shame after that tirade if you failed to pass your voting test!

@ Gem (post74)

I am not a person who thinks everyone should have the same opinion as me however the insult handed to 16+17 year olds by others annoys me greatly. They are no all idiots and since when is 18 a magic number to make someone mature. What happens in gov policy especially around education affects them more than the 60 year old voter and if you take a look at the kids on facebook and tw there is a lot more insight and inteligants than you are giving them credit for.

A young adult learns maturity and pride through responsibility and inclusion so lets engage them and not brush them off as idiots who don’t have a thought between them.

Gem if at 16 and 17 you had no knowledge of the real world think yourself luck there are plenty of 16+17s out there who have to much knowledge of how unfair the real world really is. And don’t you think that all of the people that came out and voted on the back of the TV debates have no knowledge of the real political world yet they have had their votes counted. If a 35 year old is allowed to vote BNP like the idiot he is them then surly a idiot 16 year old should have a shot?

Even if we didn’t send 17 year olds to the war front they would still be able to sign up at 17 a decision that will send them there before they can leave so if they are mature enough to make that decission surly they are mature enought to get the vote.

Of course comp voting would include none of the above. There is still 40-50% of people that don’t vote at national level and the numbers are even worse at local if by intro comp voting it engaged even 25% of them it would be worth it, and it wouldn’t ‘enables politicians to claim a mandate from the electorate when no such thing exists’ to all of the people that can work out %.

86. John Palmer

85. jen01

Personally I don’t think that anyone below the age of 75 should be allowed to vote, I’m just a bit worried that I won’t be able to find the polling booth.

Fareweel to a’ our Liberal fame,
Fareweel our Trident peace plan;
Fareweel ev’n to the PR game,
Sae fam’d in political story.
Now Clegg rins over to Deputy PM,
An’ Cable rins to the Osbourne,
To mark where the Tory province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What Thatcher or Blair could not subdue,
Thro’ many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a power-mad few,
For hireling servant’s wages.
The Tory stell we could disdain,
Secure in our liberal station;
But “Secretary of State” has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi’ Gladstone and Joseph Grimond!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I’ll mak this declaration;
We’re sold for no more than scraps to gnaw-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

(With apologies to Robbie Burns and the Scots generally)

@John Palmer (post 86)
The polling booth is the one with the doors shut and the big que outside.

89. John Palmer

88. jen01

Does that mean I’m too late?

Tories have started how they mean to go on national insurance hike for the workers only.
the tories and lib dems must be rubbing their hands they can impliment the things they argued against a week ago and call it give and take but all the take will be out of the pocket of us and the give will be to their own.

How can the lib dems argue that cuts to early will put the ecom at risk only a week ago and change their mind after a few cosy chats with the tories. Its amazing how the carrot of power can makes the maths change.
There is only two explain for this either they were full of shit before the election and didn’t belive in their own position or they care more about getting into power than the ecom.

@John Pamer (post 89)

You could always get in the que for the next election which will be in about six months.

92. John Palmer

91. jen01

I’ll start queueing, now where’s the nearest toilet?

93. John Palmer

So, now it looks as if we’ll get the cabinet lineup at 2pm, ahead of a press conference at 2.15pm.

@John Palmer (post 92) I will be to busy finding out where the loo is while i an in the long long long dole que to worry about your bladder SORRY.

Some say the lib dems have sold the British people out but here is a scenario that could have happened:
Lib dems all sat and passed their GCSE in maths in the last 3 days and have:
Wized around the country and counted all the illegal immigrants and decided that they counted wrong and there was only 60 not 60000 so were not a problem after all.
Looked at the deficit statements and realised that before they done their maths GCSE they got confused between the numbers 2010 and 2011 and they did indeed always want to start the huge cuts in 2010.

The problem they now find themselves in isn’t to do with maths but mis-communication. When they were in the talks with the cons around getting above the magic number 326 the lib dems thought they were talking about seats in parliament and didn’t realise the tories where talking about 326million unemployed.

Having a 17 year old I am down with the kids yes I did say ‘down with the kids’ and can tell you all that the fashion mistakes of the 80s are on their way back in its not the only 80s mistakes that are on their way. I have got my shell suit out of the attic but it doesn’t fit any more, but it wasn’t a wasted journey as I found my dole signing on card in the pocket.

95. craig abbess

John Palmer my tirade was totally justified. Look up the word Democracy, it means representing the view of the electorate and as the maj view which is centre/left and opposed to a Conservative Government has been gone against I totally have the right to launch what you call is a tirade against it. I am merely pointing out the truth. The maj who didn’t want the Conservatives in have got what is still a minority Government with Tories having 37% of votes out of a 65.1% turnout which means they have support from 24.078% of the electorate and even with LibDems joining them this makes this joint undemocratic and unrepresentative of the maj view in the UKs Govt still only have support from 39.052% of the electorate though ofcourse most LibDems didnt vote LibDem to get Conservative Govt so they don’t even have that so think that proves maj voted anti-Tory and didnt want a Conservative Govt including most LibDem voters so I quite think I’m correct to be outraged and to have a right go back pointing out the truth behind this disgrace. Particularly when the maj view of voters has been gone against and sold ouit by a party that calls themsaelves Liberal and Democratic, the cheek of it, and by a Labour Party which shows many of their MPs dont want a democratic truly representative voting system their happier with an undemocratic voting system cos keeping themselves in jobs is more important then protecting the maj from this horrendous coalition between the LibDems perhaps we should call them “new Tories” . Ofcourse, that I’ve spotted all this and could do the mathematics shows I’m stupid doesn’t it John.I’m sure I am far brighter and have a higher IQ than you or most particularly first time voters who fell for the Conservative lies. Check out details of their Young British Future group how many knew of that. The tories havent changed theyve just conned LibDems into joining with them. The LibDems won’t get AV now the Conservatives will throw millions and all their press against it, and have next to no chance of ever getting STV which is what we really need now that they’ve been bought, far too cheaply, for my liking and sold out to the Conservatives, most of their voters will not vote for them or just not vote at all at next election though of course were gonna be forced to endure 5 years of them now, and have to get 55% in no confidence vote against them not just simple maj half seats plus one to get them out before may 2015, what a disgrace. And if you notice, John, though you’re prob too stupid to understand what I really said.I still said we shouldn’t have test to decide who’s able to vote or not, even though it’s so trough to deal with the results of having to put up with idiots who were conned into voting Conservative and who have little knowledge of politics and have to deal with the cowardice and subservience of the general public to just put up, probably, now, particularly the sheepishness and subservience of the maj of English public, and by the way I’m in England, when a Govt has been forced on us and we’re forced to put up with it when maj of us voted against tories and to keep the selfish scum out.So I still thought we shouldnt have a testy even though its so hard and so f undemocratic to put up with this though I’m sure I’d have far better chance of passing the test than most, as I spotted the truth that tories havent changed ie via their youth group who a lot of their candidates have been trained through and I spotted why this is not a true democracy and how the maj view has been gone against sold out by a LibDem party who have been conned and will never get a really fair electoral system and sold out by Labour who prefer an undemocratic system too. That makes me more intelligent then most not stupid like many, and not a kow tow subservient sheep to put up with this total injustice total lack of accurate representation which most sheep, particularly in England will just put up with now. What we really need now is a new party to be formed to stand at almost every if not all seats which is a single issue party determined to get STV where the percentage of votes cast for a party equals the amount of seats any party would get, and to keep on till we have enough MPs to force us to think of maj view of public first and not themselves first, they really have cheek to still call the mps site they work for us i know many do but so many its been shown dont now so we need new party to get STV cos well never get it via LiobDems (new name new tories) Im sure wed get lot of votes when lot will now avoid voting LibDem or Labour and eventually we’d have enough MPs to force the other parties to give usa STV and represent us in an accurate and fair way policy and seat wise and not be conned into helping a conservative govt who maj across the nation didnt vote for.

Oh no just heared tories have put the married tax allowance on hold thats loaf of bread and a bottle of milk less a week how will we cope

@95

Please use paragraphs! I’m sure you’re making excellent points but it’s impossible to read that huge block of dense prose. It’s like the end of Ulysess for heaven’s sake.

@95

Please use paragraphs! I’m sure you’re making excellent points but that huge dense block of text is impossible to read, it’s like Molly Bloom’s soliloquy in Ulysses.

Can anyone tell me the difference between ‘party differences’ and ‘party beliefs and principals’? One I can understand giving away the other I can’t.

Can anyone tell me the difference between ‘party differences’ and ‘party beliefs and principals’? One I can understand giving away the other I can’t.

Does this type of government give us the people a bigger say or does it just open the door to more backroom deals.

Oops, didn’t think that first one had posted. Mods feel free to delete @97 🙂

Both already side stepping the questions and nick constantly chewing his lip says it all.

Dodge dodge dodge and we were told the new way of working would be different. The quote ‘a good and stable goverment’ is it repeted in every statment to convince us or them.

103. craig abbess

My long texts and lack of paragraphs is obviously only borne of frustration at realizing for so many years that I couldn’t vote for who I wanted to vote for and how I and most others have to vote negatively and tactically to try to stop a party we really don’t want to govern us getting in.

And borne by some frustration with a few idiots who are unable to spot the most obvious things and who are reluctant to any change no matter how much evidence they are given.

And then just as we have the opportunity to form a cross party centre-left alliance and finish the Tories off for good, what do we get but the party that represents a large percentage of liberal anti-conservative belief sells out the maj of anti-tory people across UK and their voters so my frustration is borne of that too so no wonder is almost f impossible r hard to have energy feel like getting all my punctuation and paragraphing correct.

Now that the LibDems have sold out maj of people across all parties and they prob won’t get AV and will never get STV and how Labour can never command maj of their party to support PR when too many of them want to keep F P T P.

We now need to form a new party. A party that campaigns solely for STV and keep at it till we have enough MPs to force the MPs of the ‘parties of betrayal’ (Lib Dems and Labour) to give us real representation for every election in future into the house of commons.

I’m sure such a new party campaigning for STV and standing in as many constituencies as possible would get lot of voters coming to them from the Lib Dems and Labour and it shouldn’t take too long to have enough MPs in the house to force through a vote for STV, then maybe we could even disband party after bringing about STV voting sys and don’t think the ‘parties of betrayal’ would dare change the sys back to a less democratic one after that.

104. craig abbess

Mark Lightwood, Claude and others. Of course Labour made a mess of the deal but a Lib/Lab + others centre/left coalition wasn’t only option apart from the Conservative/LibDem(new Tories) alliance. Clegg, Cable etc will try to blame the national need over economy for stable govt etc. BS what about the national need to have democracy, real representation where voting share equals percentage of seats.

True Labour fucked things up but Democracy and a true (not total opposite to the maj views representation which is what we’ve ended up getting) representation of the maj of publics views in terms of which parties they voted for and political position comes before anything.

LibDems (new Tories) didn’t have to form coalition with the Conservatives. Principles, beliefs and sticking to a true belief and drive for real democracy should come before anything.

The Lib Dems didn’t have to sell their principles so quickly down the river and so cheaply too, when all they have are small concessions like a referendum on AV which Tories will throw so much cash at in campaign against it and theyve prob got no chance of STV now for v long time after their support will hemorrhage after betraying their voters and maj of public who didnt want a Torie f govt.

True Labour sold us out but then so did the Lib Dems they have to be responsible for getting in bed with Tories being bought so easily by a party most of their voters would dread them ever getting together with all for the lust of power and small concessions of tax threshold raised to 7,500 ie by 1,500 when on earth will it be raised the other 2,500 to 10,000 and the Tories have only put off giving inheritance tax break to the richest 3000 families. Theyll give it to them at start of next parliament if they dont manage to sneak it to them b4 then.


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