Lord Carey: Mendacious and Hypocritical
Even with the Budget coming up, I can’t resist having a bit of a polite rant over this letter, which appears in today’s Times newspaper:
Sir, At the time of the passage of the Civil Partnerships Act 2004 we were reassured by the Government that there was a clear distinction between such partnerships and marriage. Churches were told that they would not be compelled to “marry” homosexuals. With the passage of Lord Alli’s [sic] amendment allowing civil partnerships to be conducted on church premises this distinction has been broken. Yet another example of creeping legislation that is often hasty, ill conceived and opportunistically tacked on to existing Bills without a proper chance for scrutiny.
If there is a genuine need for a change in the law this should be done properly by revisiting the Civil Partnerships Act.
Yesterday Christian Concern for Our Nation delivered a petition to the Government, signed by more than 6,000 church leaders and Christians, asking it to reject the amendment, which they believe could coerce clergy into acting against their conscience.
How long will it be before church ministers are threatened with legal proceedings if they perform marriages between a man and a woman, but not civil partnerships?
Lord Carey of Clifton
House of Lords
The mendacity on display here would be breathtaking, coming as it does from a former Archbishop of Canterbury, were it not for the reference to Nadine Dorries’ buddies, Christian Concern for Our Nation, who are well known to be habitual bullshitters.
Lord Ali’s amendment to the Civil Partnership’s Act, which has cross-party support, in no way seeks to compel churches to marry homosexuals.
What it does do, as is explained pretty well here by Thinking Anglicans, is start the process of removing a legal prohibition that currently prevents those religious denominations that don’t go in for homophobic prejudice, the Quakers, Unitarians and Liberal Jews, from providing religious civil partnership services in line with their particular beliefs.
Lord Ali’s amendment, in fact, includes a clause that states, explicitly, that:
(4) In section 6A, after subsection (3), insert—
“( ) For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this Act places an obligation on religious organisations to host civil partnerships if they do not wish to do so.”
And my clear understanding is that one of the key reasons that the amendment has be put forward is precisely because it has been requested by, amongst others, the Quakers.
As should be apparent from analysis provided by Thinking Anglicans, Lord Ali’s amendment only goes part of the way to affording the Quakers, and others, the liberties they’re seeking. Further amendments will need to be made to the clause 11 of The Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) Regulations 2005, which currently states that:
(1) Any proceedings conducted on approved premises shall not be religious in nature.
(2) In particular, the proceedings shall not—
(a) include extracts from an authorised religious marriage service or from sacred religious texts;
(b) be led by a minister of religion or other religious leader;
(c) involve a religious ritual or series of rituals;
(d) include hymns or other religious chants; or,
(e) include any form of worship.
Contrary to the view being put about by those opposed to Lord Ali’s amendment, the fact that it makes no alterations to this particular regulatory clause is not a flaw or fault in the amendment itself but simply a matter of parliamentary convention. these regulations are contained in, and were passed using, a statutory instrument and that, in turn, is the mechanism that needs to be used to repeal this purely regulatory clause.
As ever, those opposed to Lord Ali’s amendment claim to be defending ‘religious liberty’ but if religious liberty is to have any genuine meaning then it must surely follow that each religion, and each denomination within those religions, must be free to define their key sacraments, including marriage, in their own terms.
While secular law, quite rightly, sets out a clear position on what it will, and will not, recognised as a marriage or civil partnership in terms of both being civil institutions to which certain legal rights and obligations are attached by law, it does not, in the case of heterosexual unions, take any particular view on what can, and cannot, be sanctioned under religious ‘law’. The state does not, for example, recognise polygamy and, indeed, prohibits the registration under civil law of polygamous marriages. However, where a polygamous marriages are permitted under religious law, as is the case in Islam, it does not interfere with the granting of a purely religious sanction for such relationships.
If the secular law can tolerate religiously-sanctioned polygamy, without interference, then it surely has no justification for interfering in the question of whether or not a particular religion/denomination wishes to afford a religious sanction to a civil partnership between two individuals of the same gender.
As such, the secular law has no business imposing restrictions such as those incorporated in clause 11 of The Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) Regulations 2005, a clause that illegitimately places secular constraints on the nature of the sacraments that religious denominations can offer irrespective of the beliefs of that denomination.
If you genuinely believe in religious liberty then it follows, logically, that you should support Lord Ali’s amendment. To do otherwise, while claiming to defend religious liberty is simply hypocrisy.
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'Unity' is a regular contributor to Liberal Conspiracy. He also blogs at Ministry of Truth.
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Reader comments
Quite right. This increases religious liberty, it doesn’t decrease it.
However, I still hold that the logical thing to do is to complete remove the concept of marriage from the statute books, and allow everyone to get a civil partnership. That way churches could conduct their own marriages which would not be recognised or forbidden by the state.
So is he stupid or evil?… taking votes now.
This is the same guy who wants to put massive limits on immigration, supposedly out of concern for population growth:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6988719.ece
@ 1
the logical thing to do is to complete remove the concept of marriage from the statute books, and allow everyone to get a civil partnership.
I’d remove the involvement of the state in personal affairs entirely. What is the purpose of civil partnerships?
And religious organisations should be free to marry whoever they like.
So is he stupid or evil?… taking votes now.
Are they necessarily exclusive?
Are yes, another ‘sanctity of marriage’ hypercritical tosser.
Of course this is the same piece of dog shit who was quite happy to marry the adulterous, divorced Prince Charles, and thinks he will be fine as the head of the church of England when he becomes King.
Carey is little shit who loves privilege and hates gays. Typical Conservative Christian. No wonder Thatcher appointed him. He has, like her, the charm of a lump of turd.
No surprise to see Tim Jerk supporting him.
I wonder whether he even knew of the details posted by Unity before writing his letter? Kneejerk homophobia from one beloved of Jesus? Funny old world.
#4
In principle I agree with you, but there are a lot of people who would still like to get hitched legally, and I suppose it is a short-cut for tying your affairs to those of another person.
No surprise to see Tim Jerk supporting him.
You appear to have your Tims tangled. And to be unable to read. Tim f supports this amendment, and by extension does not agree with Lord Carey. For what it’s worth I do too.
‘What it does do, as is explained pretty well here by Thinking Anglicans, is start the process of removing a legal prohibition that currently prevents those religious denominations that don’t go in for homophobic prejudice, the Quakers, Unitarians and Liberal Jews, from providing religious civil partnership services in line with their particular beliefs.’
Precisely. This is about removing a prohibition, not imposing one. The government had managed to create legislation that actually forced religious groups to be more illiberal. Hopefully, once these groups start performing gay marrages they’ll shame others into following, or at least prove those resisting gay marrages are acting out of homophobia not out of a legal requirement.
Tim f does have a point about removing marrages from the statute books though. Weddings might be ‘the greatest day of your life’ and keep toaster manufacturers in business but they are largely symbolic. To argue that a civil partnership is less worthy of support than a marrage is as idiotic as claiming somebody hasn’t got any older because they didn’t have a birthday party.
sally @ 6
“He has, like her, the charm of a lump of turd.”
It’s known as projection, sally.
Unity
your analogy with polygamy may be flawed:
> The state does not, for example, recognise polygamy
But the state DOES pay benefits to polygamous wives: Telegraph in 2008
And that article points out that indeed the state makes it easy for a man to bring in new wives in series, and claim benefits accumulatively for all the ‘wives’ – if he divorces each wife under secular (not Islamic) law first.
And the Times in 2007:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1848488.ece
“1,000 men living legally with multiple wives despite fears over exploitation”
————————————————————————————————
Polygamous marriage is flourishing as the Government admits for the first time that nearly a thousand men are living legally with multiple wives in Britain.
Although the families are entitled to claim social security for each wife, no one has counted how many of them are on benefits.
Ministers appear to be ignoring the separate practice of unauthorised polygamy, which is said to have become commonplace in some Muslim communities. The Ministry of Justice admits that it has no estimates of numbers for these unions, which are often presided over by an Islamic cleric.
yawn
Are we keeping you up, Steve, or in that as much enthusiasm as you can muster for ‘Just Visiting’.
Hey Unity, don’t mock. It’s a big step up from steveb’s last entry to a thread:
> I think you should be posting on Fascist Conspiracy
15
‘It’s a big step up fro steveb’s last entry to a thread’
Well thank you JV, now tell us, when are you going to take a big step away from your obsession with Islam?
Steveb
Unity made a statement about polygamy.
I wondered whether it was a valid statement.
I supported that with evidencial URLs.
Seems like a normal discussion flow to me.
Maybe the obession is _yours_ – are you uncomfortable with anything islamic coming up on LC even when it is definitely in context?
Well said, Unity.
Second time I’ve agreed with Unity in a month.
Reactions: Twitter, blogs
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RT @libcon: Lord Carey: Mendacious and Hypocritical http://bit.ly/aA07gL – A little something for anyone not interested in the Budget
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Even though it’s Lab Con, superb exposé RT @SohoPolitico RT @libcon Lord Carey: Mendacious and Hypocritical http://bit.ly/9COk9n
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