It’s the condescension…which gets on my bonkers

Um, what? Have you actually read your own comments to this thread, “man” (Alix, as anyone following the link can see, is female)

the uninfluential third party

I’ve already pointed out, in this very thread, in reply to you that the party already has significant influence, and that a Cabinet seat isn’t necessary, and can at times be reducing, influence.

If you keep repeating a point after it’s already been rebutted, it makes you look, um, what’s the word? Oh yes, condescending.

its band of righ[left]t-wing libertarian[liberal] stooges[campaigners]

Corrected you there, or have you now decided to ignore the substantive point of Darrell’s actual post?

Either you’re being incredibly obtuse, or you’re trolling. Either way, I can’t be bothered with you, as you’ve contradicted yourself more than once in this discussion, and it’s pointless if you’re going to ignore the substance and play the person instead.

You, personally, loath Lib Dems. Fine, knock yourself out. I’ll file you under ‘ignore’, it’s easier.

Arguably, never have we needed a third party to stop equivocating and strengthen the argument either for the state, or for the free market. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You have to make a choice: some influence, or no influence.

You’ve just proven that you aren’t interested in change or progress, however incremental they might be: you just want to sit on the sidelines and snipe at others.

Good luck with that.

While at the same time, working directly with vacuous Cameron isn’t tenable.

Refusing that false choice between two groups of incompetents isn’t rejecting influence, it’s the only politically viable option.

And as for this strange belief that having a seat at the cabinet table is the only way to change policy, tell that to Lord Clement-Jones.

a) not be shit

b) recognise that at some point they will need to join with one of the larger parties in order to have any influence.

A party that does not seek influence = shit.

Honestly, pull your yellow fingers out and get a move on. You can only blame other people for your lack of support for so long. It’s like you want something to complain about.

The one thing that unites campaigners whether Tory, Labour, Green or otherwise, is that Lib Dems fight the dirtiest local campaigns. That is not an unfounded accusation, it is the sum experience of so many campaigners in the UK.

For what it’s worth, I do think the country could do with a third party. I don’t think the Lib Dems provide that. I take on board all the high-flight nonsense about wanting to give the voters a more nuanced, pick and mix choice about being touchy-feely socially liberal on some things and then undermining it completely with free-market libertarian lunacy on others: I also note the condescending tone, which you and another Lib Dem commenter yourselves acknowledge.

But here’s the rub: politics has gone in one direction for thirty years now. The British people aren’t interested in half-measures, or “a little bit of this, and a little bit of that”. They want politicians who aren’t afraid to say, hell yes I’m progressive, or, hell yes I’m conservative. They don’t want anoraks who want to argue over every single bit of policy.

Sorry, luvs. You are policy geeks not political power-seekers. You will get what you deserve and desire, i.e. no influence.

The biggest indictment of your pointlessness is that you have been unable to overtake Labour on the centre-left of British politics (and Clegg has himself said this is where the Lib Dems are, rather than completely above the whole left-right axis). You think it’s better to quibble than to get down to brass tacks. Labour have let everyone down. The Tories are like a teenage boy fumbling around trying to undo a bra. Where are you?

Lib Dems, where are you?

Nowhere. That’s where.

You can argue all you like that liberalism is the best ideology. But why aren’t you in power?

Possibly because where they have power in Leeds the situation is pretty dire and their support for fairness hasn’t really panned-out that well in practice. To be fair to Mat I don’t have a problem with my footer being changed because its technically inaccurate and like he says we simply don’t agree on the Clegg leadership.

Following the election they will hit the evolutionary dead-end you talk about and the concrete choice facing the members will be simply where do they stand. Either they are progressives, in which case they must line-up with Labour or they aren’t.I think Clegg will line-up with Cameron on the basis of a negative ‘anti-Labour’ opportunism and because he is deluded in his belife about replacing Labour; which is pretty much why the Lib Dems in Leeds lined-up with the Tories and look how *that* ended-up….

Who are you going to side with? … a Lib Dem/Labour deal is the only one on the table

Um, what? Why do you have to “side” with anyone?

You ought to know the history of this country’s politics–minority Govts used to be the norm, and Clegg has stated he’s not going to side with either of the other two parties for very well stated reasons.

You also should know that where I live (Calderdale for other readers), the minority Tory administration has been kept in power for the last few years with the support of the Labour group.

This whole “who will the Lib Dems choose” meme has been discounted and discredited so many times now by so many different people it’s silly.

And for electoral reform, you need to persuade the country and a majority of MPs–a preferendum would be a good plan.

Oh, and Dave the arsehole’s on record as saying he prefers STV (the long preferred reform) to any other proposed changed, and AV+ is an abomination ont he face of democracy–if that’s all that’s on offer, no thanks. AV on its own is just about palatable as a first step, AV+ is a waste of time.

Liberal Drinks tomorrow night, you fancy coming along?

As to the oft repeated but never justified complaint about Lib Dem election campaigns, if they’re so awful why are both the other parties now mimicking them all over the country?

Copycat murders are still murders.

Copycat mudslinging “only we can win here!”/dodgy bar charts/saying one thing to one group of electors and another thing to another campaigns are still mudslinging “only we can win here!”/dodgy bar charts/saying one thing to one group of electors and another thing to another campaigns.

I wouldn’t take it as a compliment that the likes of Labour and the Tories are copying your campaign style. in fact, I’d take it as a sign that you need to change the way you do things. No wonder your level of support is so low, people don’t know what they’re getting with the Lib Dems!

I think the fundamental mistake you’re making in trying to reason with the Lib Dems is the assumption that they want the responsibility that comes with power, with being part of a coalition government.

They don’t.

They want to criticise other parties, safe in the knowledge that they will never have to compromise on their policies – because they’ll never be in power.

As a party, they are an evolutionary dead-end. Going nowhere.

We’ve rarely agreed on substantive issues, and we’ve always disagreed over Clegg’s leadership, and his interpretation of Clegg’s leadership has always struck me as skewed. But in this post, he’s attacked Clegg without actually giving any evidence as to what Clegg’s done that’s wrong. Which is why I’m calling him on it.

If you want to believe that Labour members have any say over Govt policy these days, go ahead; I thought those days were long gone.

As to the oft repeated but never justified complaint about Lib Dem election campaigns, if they’re so awful why are both the other parties now mimicking them all over the country?

you have to come here

Actually, I was invited by the founders, and am always told I should contribute more. If you think my opinion is “poison”, well, you’re entitled to an opinion, as is Darrell. I’m a liberal, I believe in free expression, which has to be balanced by free discourse and rebuttal. Liberal, is after all, in the name of the site.

And this is a utopian dream and it will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. You want electoral reform? Who are you going to side with? The Conservatives who want no change and there is zip support for it within the rank and file or Labour or who are at least offering a referendum on AV+. Personally, I prefer AV+ in any case but thats outside the scope of this discussion.

If Clegg backs Cameron he will make a hypocrite out of Cable who has clearly said on numerous occasions he wont under any circumstances support an Osborne emergency budget. People who had supported the party as a protest against Labour will desert it in droves etc and before you say Clegg doesnt have to concretly support one party over another well yes he does because he has just told the FT he will. So, lets stop the posturing and get down to brass tacks….a Lib Dem/Labour deal is the only one on the table…..

Typical Lib Demmery. It’s not enough you run the dirtiest campaigns on the ground – you have to come here and spread your poison against anyone who dares come to the simple realisation that being in the Lib Dems is a waste of time.

Political reality in both peoples perceptions and policy terms shows how much closer the Liberal Democrats are to Labour.

If Nick Clegg continues to ignore that reality then he will steer the Liberal Democrats onto a collision course with his own supporters.

Seems to be completely weird to me. He’s fully aware of the first part, and isn’t doing the second.

His clearly stated objective is to replace the Labour party as the clear preference for the anti-Tory majority in the country. He’s said that again and again and again and again, in many many different fora.

So I don’t know how “competing with Labour for the votes of those on the liberal left” equates to “a collision course with the supporters”, but it seems to make no sense at all.

I’ve stated that Clegg’s taking the party in a radically liberal and left wing direction, and I believe I even discussed this with you in the past–he definitely confirmed this when I asked him directly in the interview I did with him that I know you read the transcript of (Charlotte typed it up).

Others have demolished your palpably false use of the statistics, they’re broadly correct.

And I’ve emailed a site admin to get your auto-inserted footer changed now that Sunny’s away and can’t do it.

This poll was not of the Liberal Democrats activist base so I dont know what you mean by that really; it was of Lib Dem voters.

Letters,

And Cable has made it quite clear he wont support an emergency budget of the type planned by Osborne so again I am not sure what your point is. If its that there is a putative division between Clegg and Cable then I agree.

I think your second para is spot on. Being organised as a centralised social democracy and having a media concerned, one way or another, with what the state is doing tends to mean that issues pertaining to that area get more closely explored – by media, by pollsters and hence by politicians. So “social justice” and all its sub-divisions is more discussed than “liberty” and all its sub-divisions. What I would *expect* to be the case is that an aggregate of Lib Dems, asked to rank issues in order of priority, would mix all the sub-divisions in together, rather than ranking, e.g. all the social justice issues above all the liberty issues.

You’ve more experience of Liberal Democrat’s concerns than me (mine are from friends I drink with – Liberal Democrats drinking, who’d have thought it…). However, I suspect if you asked an average Liberal Democrat (a fictional beast), Labour supporter (a functional beast…) and Conservative supporter (a beast?) to identify issues of concern, the best correlation would be between the Liberal Democrat and Labour supporters.

I agree there is an overlap between Conservative supporters and Liberal Democrats on civil liberties etc (incidentally, I suspect the Conservatives might start playing those cards again nearer the election), but as pollsters tend not to focus on these issues as widely as various social concerns, immigration etc (i.e. there are less headings in the field to select) this will show up less to people like Sunny who are looking to claim similiarity of interest.