Can someone please explain WTF he’s doing in Blighty?

“Not wholly convincing”? How about completely and utterly incompetent, incapable of understanding the most basic moral framework and not actually on our side at all?

“So the pertinent question becomes: who provided them with this wonderful opportunity?”

The (no)border policy that gave him UK citizenship

The international Islamist far right will indeed extract maximum advantage from the Mohamed case

Because that is, of course, the most important issue here. Never mind the fact that a man was tortured.

You’re a real credit to the British left, Dave.

It’s not the most important point, John. It is, however, the central thrust of Mr Evans’ argument.

John – The argument has been skewed so that the “own goal” straw man becomes self-reinforcing. It’s one of the finest examples of Islamaphobophobia (an irrational fear of appearing islamaphobic) that I’ve seen outide of the BBC news website

The trolls are not doing very well this week. So far they have come out in support of bestiality cartoons in the Mail, the police and right wing press over the broadwater farm convictions, and now they are supporting torture and western govts lying to their people, and pretending that they don’t torture or support it.

And these clowns are always bleating on about civility. They have not an ounce of civility in them. They are drenched in fascist philosophy and would turn Britain into a police Nazi state quicker than you can say vote tory.

Tory trolls have no credibility on anything.

Yes, sally, I’m sure they would. Imagine what it’d look like too:

CCTV everywhere, the police able to stop and search without reasonable cause, fakepolice joining in the fun, tourists unable to take photographs without harassment, clampdowns on the net, and…

Oh, wait…

Add to that – agents of the state vetting anyone who happens to come into contact with your own children, endless government propaganda in the media, the subjugation of all state machinery to party political ends, the sanctioned social exclusion of undersirable groups, the manipulation of language to make everyone talk and think in the same way, everyones DNA on a database, imprisonment without trial, monitoring of all communications. Would be just like living in Germany circa 1933…..

@Sally -

‘and now they are supporting torture and western govts lying to their people, and pretending that they don’t torture or support it.’

That, exactly in one clean cut sentence, is exactly where there exists a fault line between left and right; you assumed they lied to us – the right is shocked when they tell the truth.

It’s not party political and I completely accept that I usually post pithy one liners but the guy’s alive. Is torture better than cluster bombing villages? You bet your arse it is. I’ve never been tortured but I can damn well confirm that it would have to be pretty God damed serious to choose death. Life is immutable – this guy is wandering round – surely that’s pretty cool considering that we’re just about to launch a massive AfPak offensive and torture would be a walk in the park considering the devastation that will occur to innocents.

I know not of this man’s case; I have no knowledge of his guilt or innocence or bullshit attributed by shite officers obeying shite orders given by shite leaders but I do know the lad’s alive. Cool. I’d give him a cup of tea and a fag but I still don’t comprehend how an Ethiopian is in some way connected to British governance when we’ve killed up to a million Iraquis. Surely our debt is with them. Just because this lad got off with a bird here and stayed for a while our institutions give him greater access?

Have we no duty of justice to those locals that didn’t volunteer to walk into a war zone via Scunthorpe? I just don’t get it and probably never will. Torture happens and the greatest torture is death – any deviation from an officer from that is already a willful misrepresentation of the truth.

Trolls are so stupid. All of this was done by a far right wing govt in America, and then pushed through the UK by poodle Blair who is now totally discredited as a Christian neo con loony. Most of this has been supported by the tory press, particularly the Torygraph which is just a mouth piece for the British intelligence establishment.

Things would have been no better under a tory govt. This is the right wing establishments of the Anglo Atlantic alliance.

OK Sal, what next then? Fix it.

Actually Sally – bollox to that ‘and then pushed through the UK by poodle Blair who is now totally discredited as a Christian neo con loony. Most of this has been supported by the tory press’ – hokely dokely – mini fisk; sorry, been a long week what with budgets and all but am still charged to maximum battery level.

By your disrespect for the ‘poodle Blair’ you completely undo the vehicle of the left that was the Labour party – fair enough, up to you. But in that haste, in that eagerness to distance yourself from the advocates of similar hopes as you and your trenchant sorrow that your party failed to live up to your expectations you have unfortunately assumed that the right gives a flying fuck.

Christian neo con loony – not sure about the Christian (would defer to Archbishop Cranmer on such expedient description) but neo con loony – cool.

Tory press – maybe, maybe they were so happy with the Blair vehicle that they excluded the err.. Tory party from their editorials. Although, having been a Tory for 30 odd years I can assure you that disloyalty is hardly venerated, is put in little filing cabinets and kept in case of a rainy day to fuck them when the opportunity arises.

Don’t start crying because you’ve been screwed and don’t you dare tarnish Tories with your party’s mistakes. That, my dear, is absolutely bang out of order. You’re young and not yet engaged in the culture of Ruin – watch how it ends; it ain’t nice.

“So the pertinent question becomes: who provided them with this wonderful opportunity?”

I don’t know – is he touring with Amnesty International yet?

“But it remains the case that he was released without charge after seven years of detention, during which he was regularly beaten and scalded, deprived of sleep, and subjected to the mutilation of his penis with a scalpel”

Sorry but no it does not. It is alleged that he was beaten and scalded and subject to the mutilation of his penis with a scalpel. Injuries that it does not take a very cynical person to guess left no scars or evidence at all. Nor is there any evidence at all he was regularly subject to these things. He may, at worst, have suffered a few incidents while in the custody of some Middle Eastern regimes. He may have been deprived of sleep. He may even have been regularly deprived of sleep. So what?

The fact is Binyamin M is only of use to those who hate Britain and intend to use him for propaganda purposes in the media. By claiming things that are just not true, or at least have not been proven yet, and blaming the West for it.

He should be sent home.

@14 “It is alleged that he was beaten and scalded and subject to the mutilation of his penis with a scalpel. Injuries that it does not take a very cynical person to guess left no scars or evidence at all. Nor is there any evidence at all he was regularly subject to these things.”

From the court judgement:

“[Mr Mohamed’s] trauma lasted for 2 long years. During that time, he was physically and psychologically tortured. His genitals were mutilated. He was deprived of sleep and food. He was summarily transported from one foreign prison to another. Captors held him in stress positions for days at a time. He was forced to listen to piercingly loud music and the screams of other prisoners while locked in a pitch-black cell. All the while, he was forced to inculpate himself and others in various plots to imperil Americans. The Government does not dispute this evidence.”

Time to drop the “alleged”, asshole.

15. Strategist – “From the court judgement”

From an American Court judgement. The worth of which can be judged by the fact that British Court did not endorse it. What they did say was different. They did not make any finding I can see on the genital cutting. And they do not even call it torture:

“x) The treatment reported, if had been administered on behalf of the United Kingdom, would clearly have been in breach of the undertakings given by the United Kingdom in 1972. Although it is not necessary for us to categorise the treatment reported, it could readily be contended to be at the very least cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by the United States authorities.”

Notice “the treatment reported”, not “the treatment inflicted”.

“Time to drop the “alleged”, asshole.”

Until there is a credible proof of torture the alleged should remain.

This article in Spiked might just be a load of contrarian claptrap – but it made me think about the issue to.

It asks: why all the concern about torture these last few years?
We didn’t worry so much about the IRA getting a going over inside Castlereagh interrogation center in Belfast in the past.
We expected that people suspected of being our enemies would have a hard time.
What’s so different today?

The title of it is ‘It is the liberal elite that feels tortured’
And says (of such concern) there seems to be ”something distinctly narcissistic and even conservative about it.”

The article goes on to say this:
It is not the acts of torture themselves that determine whether or not torture becomes a big issue, but the political circumstances surrounding them and the question of whether the conflict in question is considered legitimate and the government of the day is seen as ‘decent’ or ‘decadent’.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8166/

Worth a read at least (in my opinion).

CCTV everywhere, the police able to stop and search without reasonable cause, fakepolice joining in the fun, tourists unable to take photographs without harassment, clampdowns on the net, and…

Oh, wait…
6:52 pm, February 12, 20109. Matt MunroAdd to that – agents of the state vetting anyone who happens to come into contact with your own children, endless government propaganda in the media, the subjugation of all state machinery to party political ends, the sanctioned social exclusion of undersirable groups, the manipulation of language to make everyone talk and think in the same way, everyones DNA on a database, imprisonment without trial, monitoring of all communications. Would be just like living in Germany circa 1933…..
So which part of Tory policy is going to stop that. Also didn’t Thatcher use all those tactics in the 80′s , oh add to that shoot to kill policies. Of couse with the exception of DNA.

You right wing types are barking.
If Labour was manipulating the whole world.
Why is 90% of the press anti Labour and has always been anti Labour.
Why is the majority of the media anti Labour.
Agents of the state vetting children. Now you are becoming a loony.
Labour government maybe incompetent, like most governments including your Thatcher regime but to give them this aura of efficient big brother state is bordering on madness.
You right wing cretins can’t have it both ways
Life is more about cock ups than conspiracies

@15. Are 2 long years the same as 2 years?

@ 18 “So which part of Tory policy is going to stop that. Also didn’t Thatcher use all those tactics in the 80’s , oh add to that shoot to kill policies. Of couse with the exception of DNA”.

History shows that governments of all hues tend to build on and extend the oppresive instruments of previous administrations. I never claimed the torys would do anything differently, I was refuting Sallys’ “nazi” jibe at me. She seems to believe that being Nazi is somehow the exclusive preserve of the right – ignoring countless left wing totalitarian regimes and (irony of ironies) the fact that “Nazi” includes the word “socialist”.

@19 “If Labour was manipulating the whole world.
Why is 90% of the press anti Labour and has always been anti Labour.”

But that patently isn’t true. The sun came out for labour in 97 (and 01 and 05) the biggest provider of online news in the country (BBC news website) is heavily pro-labour, as is BBC TV news. Most of the blogspere is soft left. True, the Gruniad has such a low circulation that it wouldn’t exist without er, a trust fund, but that can hardly be blamed on “right wing” media.

Munro
The BBC is covered by OFCOM and is under a legal obligation not to show bias. If you have examples of bias you should contact that organisation. This is a Tory myth perpetuated by right wing conspiracy theorists like yourself.
Are you telling me Justin Webb or Gaven Esler votes Labour. Get a life.
Also before it was regulated by OFCOM during the miners strike it was the BBC that turned around the video footage to show the miners attacking the police first, then the police charged, in reality it was the other way round.
ITN had Sue Timpson in charge who was an arch Thatcherite. Look at the ex BBC/ITV head honchos who now work for Sky. Yes they have changed their views.
Blogosphere is soft left. Now I know your on prescription drugs.
Look at the number of sites in the UK that have right wing agenda, it far out numbers the left.
As for the Sun , it was pro Blair, not pro Labour. There is a big difference.
By the way your totally right about the Nazi comment.
Harrys Place is not a Nazi site but it is a right wing neo liberal and neo conservative site. There is a big difference.

Ofcom considers all complaints it receives and will assess any complaint against the Broadcasting Code. The Code contains the rules all UK broadcasters (including the BBC ) must comply with and it can be found on our website at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/ifi/codes/bcode. Recent examples of Ofcoms published decisions regarding a range of programmes can be found at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/obb/prog_cb.

Just to help

‘This article in Spiked might just be a load of contrarian claptrap.’

Yes, it is.

‘It asks: why all the concern about torture these last few years?’

Who gives a toss? The day we back away from a moral judgement on torture out of fear of being seen as ‘narcissistic and even conservative about it’ we might as well pack up our humanity entirely, ‘underrated’ as it may be.

“Are you telling me Justin Webb or Gaven Esler votes Labour. Get a life”.

LOL “ethical man” using the license fee to push a leftist climate change agenda on newsnight isn’t biased ? It’s not even news.

And have you ever watched Ballamory for the only example of an inclusive scottish fishing village in the world. (And I did complain about it to the BBC, and they didn’t reply)

The BBC is pro migration, pro islam, pro climate change. It may not exactly spell it out but anyone with half a brain can see it has a “I went to oxbridge but I feel guilty about it so here I am peddling a left wing do gooder agenda at public expense” soft left paradigm

And how is supporting Blair not supporting Nulab when he was their leader ? It’s like saying the sun was pro-thatcher, not pro-tory. Semantic hair splitting

What would you do if a country X’s government conspired to lock you up for years without trial, mutilate your genitalia then try to cover the whole thing up when you were finally released?

a) Make sure you stayed as far away as possible from country X since it is clearly a rogue fascist state which threatens your health, life and liberty?

b) Go straight back there?

c) Don’t know?

That Binyam is one mixed up kid.

And have you ever watched Ballamory for the only example of an inclusive scottish fishing village in the world. (And I did complain about it to the BBC, and they didn’t reply)

HAAAAA you are kidding
You have far too much time on your hands

The BBC is pro migration, pro islam, pro climate change. It may not exactly spell it out but anyone with half a brain can see it has a “I went to oxbridge but I feel guilty about it so here I am peddling a left wing do gooder agenda at public expense” soft left paradigm
Contact OFCOM you moron and tell me how you got on.
Also didn’t BBC give air to a programme written by Joel S criticizing Clinton and Islam
Didn’t the BBC panorama programme tear HAMAS supporters in the UK . This by John Ware.
Didn’t Gavin Esler it’d North American head honcho ” Describe Ronald Reagan as the US’s greatest ever president.
Pro migration in what way. Do they give travel tips.
A typical Harry Place poster. Migration and Islam obsessed. A little like the BNP.

And how is supporting Blair not supporting Nulab when he was their leader ? It’s like saying the sun was pro-thatcher, not pro-tory. Semantic hair splitting.
Read the Sun editorial in that period they were not pro labour ideas , it’s just they couldn’t stand some Tories and supported Blair’s neoconservative policies.
Also there is only one newspaper supporting Labour and that is the mirror, the rest apart from the Guardian (which has gone all lib dem) support the Tories.
Even the Independent has gone all Cameroony under Alton.
Still the vast majority.
Also add to that all the political magazines which the majority support the Tories.
Also Sky’s sister station FOX news.
Most of the blogosphere is also pro the right, I give you the libertarian right but still the right.

Shatterface: watching the news last night (in English) here in Malaysia, the newsreader read out the story of the police finding several kilos of ganja (as he called it) somewhere in the country. It showed the police standinng next to their haul and announcing they had arrested several people.
”Those found guilty face the mandadatory death penalty” added the newsreader.

No one here seems to give a stuff about things like that. Does that mean they lack humanity?

Next story was a government minister warning illegal immigrants to leave the country or face stern consequences. It is a pretty inhumane policy, but again, I get the idea that no one really cares.

This morning I read about the hunger strikes at Yarl’s Wood detention center and how people are fighting their deportations in Britain. They fight back by using these tatics, and the authorities are always nervous about the bad publicity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/12/hunger-strike-immigration-centre

My point is this one. Is liberal western outrage at torture, the death penalty and what’s happening inside Yarl’s Wood, superior to ”eastern” views on these matters?
I really think that this kind of thing is a low priority for people living here.

“And have you ever watched Ballamory for the only example of an inclusive scottish fishing village in the world. (And I did complain about it to the BBC, and they didn’t reply)

HAAAAA you are kidding
You have far too much time on your hands”

I have kids and it was a programme they occasionally watched. I was concerned that the “reality” it presented (a black gay house decorator, a wheelchair bound lesbian etc etc) was not representative of life anywhere except perhaps Hackney town hall.
BBC kids TV generally is almost a parody of itself in the way it presents an idealised version of multicultural society.

My point is this one. Is liberal western outrage at torture, the death penalty and what’s happening inside Yarl’s Wood, superior to ”eastern” views on these matters?

Yes.

@29
I don’t think you watched the same Balamory as I did with my kids. Had you been bitten by a rabid right-wing attack dog?

@27

Deep breaths, Golden. Relax.

My point is this one. Is liberal western outrage at torture, the death penalty and what’s happening inside Yarl’s Wood, superior to ”eastern” views on these matters?

Yes.

Of course it is.

Yes.

Of course it is.

So does that mean that Malaysians are as bad as the worst of our ”hang ‘em and flog ‘em” Daily Mail type hacks? And that they lack humanity?
They seem like awfully nice people to me on the whole. No thugish and nasty people that you come across in the UK. They keep their society safe for people to walk the streets by punnishing miscreants quite harshly.

Southampton and Portsmouth fans clashed after their FA cup match yesterday in Southampton city center. It would have been a frightening experience for ordinary people to have been caught up in.
I think the Malaysians could stamp that problem out quite quickly. But it might invovlve a bit of caning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Malaysia

Of course it could never be introduced into EU countries, but here, people put it to the back of their minds and seem to have the view that it will only happen to you if you are bad – and if you are, then tough on you.

Even though it goes completely against western liberal thinking, I can see how it appeals to people’s sense of justice. Liberalism is all well and good, but its always proclaiming that it has the moral high ground on every issue does get a bit tiresome sometimes.

And I thought those anti Guantanamo protesters who dressed up in orange boiler suits and re-enacted the scenes of prisoners on their knees hooded and cuffed, were a bit pathetic.
Be against torture by all means, but there’s nothing sinister about orange boiler suits and chains for prisoners in transit. It’s how the US treats its own prisoners.

So does that mean that Malaysians are as bad as the worst of our ”hang ‘em and flog ‘em” Daily Mail type hacks? And that they lack humanity?

Non sequitur.

Non sequitur.

I was replying @28 to what Shatterface said @24.
But I can see from how the argument is going on the thread about Nick Cohen’s ”selective standards on human rights” that any points I might make like this are really not going to work on a site like this.
I can’t be bothered to get into so much detail like is going on that other thread, other than to say Cohen might have a point. And that like often is the case, the Spiked people who I did a link to @ 17, do some contrarian grandstanding for effect, but within the piece there are some things in it that are worth thinking about.

Protests like these (below) might be very worthy, but they’re always going to be a middle class studenty kind of event. And something about them turns me off.
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=anmesty%20guantanamo%20protest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Damon, it seems to me the Gitmo demos were intended to draw attention to what’s happening at Gitmo. Do you think that the effect would have been lessened had the demo-ers worn normal civilian clothing instead of the bright orange jumpsuits and hoods?

Is torture wrong or not? I think it is wrong and it matters not a jot to me what a Malaysian thinks about flogging white collar criminals or imprisoning people for handing Christian leaflets to Muslims, if the Malaysian (or anyone) thinks torture is OK then they are wrong.

umkliberty, I think I remember the first protests like that took place after the first prisoners arrived at Guantanamo and these dramatic photos were seen for the first time.
http://guantanamovoices.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/060731_guantanamo_12pwidec.jpg

This was before we knew what kind of place Guantanamo was going to be.
Steve Bell even did a cartoon about it.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2006/06/14/steve512.jpg

Yes torture is wrong. I suppose my point has been that there is a view other than the most liberal, which is where a site like this ends up. For most of the general public it becomes a bit of a rarefied conversation – and I think the less than liberal point of view is a completely understandable one.

When I hear someone like Bill O’ Reilly going on about how released Guantanamo prisoners have gone back to fight again, I can see how that plays in living rooms all over America.

According to the Pentagon: ”Since 2002, 61 former detainees have committed or are suspected to have committed attacks after being released from the detention camp ….”
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/14/gitmo.detainees/index.html

If that’s true, then I can see why president Obama is not shutting down the camp as quickly as he had said he would. And I doubt that any torture is taking place there these days, so it isn’t really such a big story in my opinion.

So this is why I find an article like that Spiked one has some validity.

It’s all very well being ultra liberal, but if that leaves you cut off from the wider society that can’t go that far with you, then you end up with the left – right never-ending slanging match. (But as I say, torture is wrong).

Damon, the issue with Gitmo was that the administration was trying to have it both ways: we are in a war, but our prisoners are not prisoners of war (because they don’t have uniforms or flags…). They were put in Gitmo and they were outside of any law whatsoever because of (1) their location and (2) their lack of uniforms – there was (claimed to be) no accountability in terms of their incarceration (that is why they could be tortured – or the euphemism de jour – and kept indefinitely without due process). The prisoners were of different categories, too: some were captured in theatre, others were handed to US/UK outside theatre in return for bounties. They should not have been mixed together. I’ve no issue with POWs being kept in POW camps so long as they are adequately treated. I’ve no issue with suspected criminals being held on remand pending trial, so long as they have access to due process (and it’s an appropriate action). These are things fundamental to our society!

But the wider issue is that these legal fictions, mental and physical harms that have been wrought have caused us damage and unnecessarily so, at that. That is a big story.

I don’t think I’m ultra-liberal. I don’t believe it is ultra-liberal to think everyone ought to be entitled to due process, for example. It seems axiomatic, to me.

(Incidentally, the CNN article you link to claims that 520 detainees have been released, 18 have been officially confirmed as having returned to fighting while 43 are suspected of doing so. IOW 12% (and I’m being generous) have returned to fighting.

40. ukliberty – “the issue with Gitmo was that the administration was trying to have it both ways: we are in a war, but our prisoners are not prisoners of war (because they don’t have uniforms or flags…). They were put in Gitmo and they were outside of any law whatsoever because of (1) their location and (2) their lack of uniforms – there was (claimed to be) no accountability in terms of their incarceration”

That is not the issue. They were not trying to have it both ways. They simply pointed out that US law stops at the shoreline. Or at the EEZ actually. British law does not apply in India any more. American law does not apply in Japan. This is what sovereignty means. So specifically US law does not apply in Cuba. This is hard to argue with. Or are you asserting some new form of American global domination where American law applies to everyone everywhere on the planet? Can you foresee a day when a Ugandan policeman is arrested in France and tried in America for failing to Mirandize a suspect from the LRA?

“(that is why they could be tortured – or the euphemism de jour – and kept indefinitely without due process).”

Well no. If they were PoWs they could be kept indefinitely (or more accurately until hostilities ended) without due process. As they were illegal combatants and outside the US, what happened to them was a matter of complete and utter indifference to the US legal system until the US legal system grabs universal jurisdiction. Notice from the start Bush intended military tribunals to try these people. Nor is indefinite detention a euphemism for torture.

“The prisoners were of different categories, too: some were captured in theatre, others were handed to US/UK outside theatre in return for bounties. They should not have been mixed together.”

Sorry but why not?

“I’ve no issue with POWs being kept in POW camps so long as they are adequately treated.”

They are not PoWs so the issue does not arise.

“I’ve no issue with suspected criminals being held on remand pending trial, so long as they have access to due process (and it’s an appropriate action). These are things fundamental to our society!”

Except they are not criminals. Nor have they committed a crime in the US. There is nothing to charge them with in the West. They are unlawful combatants and that is a different status altogether. They are no more entitled to due process, as long as they stay out of the West, than a pick pocket in Lagos is.

“I don’t believe it is ultra-liberal to think everyone ought to be entitled to due process, for example. It seems axiomatic, to me.”

Explain how you are going to give due process to that pickpocket in Lagos.

That is not the issue. They were not trying to have it both ways. They simply pointed out that US law stops at the shoreline. Or at the EEZ actually. British law does not apply in India any more. American law does not apply in Japan. This is what sovereignty means. So specifically US law does not apply in Cuba. This is hard to argue with.

Haven’t we had this argument before? I seem to recall your lack of response when I pointed out that the US Supreme Court held a number of times that because the US was in control of Gitmo, US law applied.

Or are you asserting some new form of American global domination where American law applies to everyone everywhere on the planet?

No, I think that was the US gov (‘extra-legal’ is a lovely word, possibly unspeak).

If they were PoWs they could be kept indefinitely (or more accurately until hostilities ended) without due process.

No, they are entitled to due process. Due process does not mean we have to release people.

Notice from the start Bush intended military tribunals to try these people.

Please cite.

Explain how you are going to give due process to that pickpocket in Lagos.

Why?

a black gay house decorator, a wheelchair bound lesbian etc etc) was not representative of life anywhere except perhaps Hackney town hall.
BBC kids TV generally is almost a parody of itself in the way it presents an idealised version of multicultural society.
I know this come as surprise Matt but there gay black house decoraters and wheelchair bound lesbians. And yes they live all over the country.
Society is about people of all races living together in a civilised manner. Following the laws of the country you live in.