There is another way of ‘renegotiating’ links between the Labour party and the unions which stops short of total disaffiliation, an act which might validly be regarded as unions cutting off their nose to spite their face. See http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/11/step-3-of-5-hitting-new-labour%25e2%2580%2599s-power-base-where-it-hurts/

Local (perhaps initially regional) reaffiliation would be harder to organise (with difficulties around union constitutions) but, I would contend, more effective in the long run. After all, disaffiliation is about constitutional change anyway.

Solidarity, comrades.

Go, go Judaean People’s Front.

Hi Kate,

That’s one side of the story!

It just isn’t true, whatever the spin from the Socialist Party, that “[Unison's million members are] very aware that their hardest-working shopfloor representatives are getting the boot for going off New Labour message.” About 5% of Unison’s members voted in the NEC elections, and Unison United Left did slightly worse in those elections than in previous years – hardly a sign of a grassroots insurgency against a bureaucratic elite.

I’ve got sympathy both with grassroots activists who are committed and effective trade unionists because of their ‘philosophical belief’ in Trotskyism (whose analysis is that the unions would be more effective and recruit more members if they were more independent from government and more bolshy), and with grassroots activists who are committed and effective trade unionists who support Labour, and think unions are most effective by keeping links with Labour and trying to stop the Tories from winning the next election.

There’s some truth in both cases, and it is really sad to see how much energy on both sides goes into these kinds of denunciations.

It is not like unions which have disaffiliated have been successful by funding electoral interventions like ‘No2EU’, and most of those Unison members who are disenchanted with Labour support the Tories or Lib Dems, not the Socialist Party.

@1:

I think it’s a moot point. An incoming Conservative government will, in all probability, push through party funding reforms that sever Labour from its Union funds anyway.

You should be grateful we’re preparing to save you from yourselves.

C’mon folks, sometimes you really do have to take a stand. Can you really defend the behaviour of the NewLab barons in Unison? There are very few tools available to oppose the apparatchiks in their feathered nests, so disaffiliation is about the only option: that or give in and get trodden on by the new bosses, same as the old ones, but with PR, spin and lip-service to the workers they’re betraying.

Dan my man,

I think we do need to be fair, and you’d be a good bloke to start it.

Using Unison election numbers as the barometer for member engagement is so far off the mark as to be – well, cute, to be honest. A better yardstick would be the huge crowds that have turned out in support of these activists, the piles of correspondence that have poured into Unison from members, etc. Absolutely nobody votes in those friggn elections, precisely because they’re so disillusioned. I was a member and activist for quite a while, and I never voted. That was micropolitics – stuff for the truly obsessed.

You also insinuate that I have a taken a political ‘side’, which is not the case. I am not a member of the Socialist party, and never will be. I was briefly a member of the SWP, but that was just after I got off the plane from NZ, and I was keen to pitch in with the stop the war effort and make new friends. I could just as easily have joined the Moonies. I left the building, pronto. I have always personally thought of both the Socialist party and the SWP as a bunch of lovable, totally fringe, nutters. The point about this witchhunting exercise is that the SP’s call to drop Labour has struck a chord with the much wider membership that has never had anything to do with the Socialist party. Forget the Socialist party. By mentioning it, and tiny internal elections that nobody gives a shit about, you’re trying to hide.

I think that you’re being dismissive of grassroots trade union members with your statement above – these are, after all, the people who Labour should be trying to woo back. These are the cleaners, careworkers, call centre workers, housing officers staff and social workers who make up Labour’s natural constituency. These are people that stand up at union meetings (and I’ve attended plenty of these meetings) shouting that their lives and the services they provide have been ruined by privatisation and that Labour has done nothing to help them, or to protect their TUPE rights. You can’t pretend they, and their concerns, don’t exist. You can laugh all you like at the UL, as do we all, but that laughter doesn’t quite drown out the agonies of your constituents on the ground. Labour will never recover while you take such a dismissive approach to the concerns of wht should be the party’s core vote.

You Labour party boys and girls can’t continue to sit there and try and laugh off this level of upset.

You also conveniently sidestep an important issue – that it’s not just far left party members who are coming a guster with the Unison hierarchy.

Unison has put unelected regional officers in place at a lot of branches, essentially undermining the local democratically organised branch officers while tightening the grip of control. Branches are falling apart under the pressure of this threat and meddling from people who ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE SAME SIDE.

So – what should Labour to do for those low paid workers who have been outsourced and had their wages cut and are so furious with Labour that they want to abandon the political link? Come on, Dan – you just have to have something better than ‘well, the elections show that these people don’t count.’ You’re a good activist – you must have something else. Labour will never recover while its base is so utterly dismissed.

Alisdair’s right – people have to take friggn stand. Don’t you want to get the grassroots back?

Hi Kate,

Your article does take a political side – it asks people to join a rally in support of members of the Socialist Party. in favour of disaffiliation of Unison from the Labour Party and against the people in Unison who want to keep the link.

I don’t think there is any evidence that this particular issue is a major concern for most Unison members. It will be a highly successful rally if 0.1% of Unison’s members turn up.

There is an important debate about tactics for building a stronger union (which affiliation is part of) – and this needs more comradely discussion and less denouncing and expelling each other. I like Paul’s idea as a possible way to address some of the problems with disaffiliation. While the lefties denounce the bureaucrats and the full-time staff expel hard-working activists, the only winners are the Tories who are planning a series of cuts and attacks which will make the past decade look like a Golden Age.

Bigger question is “what should Labour to do for those low paid workers who have been outsourced and had their wages cut and are so furious with Labour that they want to abandon the political link?”

5 areas to start with (taken from the European Anti-poverty network) :

*An adequate income for a dignified life (e.g. living wages and lower taxes for low paid workers)
*Economic policies to create full employment (building on things like the Future Jobs Fund)
*Tackle discrimination
*Better services (starting with free childcare for all working parents)
*Participation in decision-making as equals with decision-makers (both as individuals and through strong civil society organisations and trade unions).

Is there any chance John McDonnell could be persuaded to cut his links with Labour?

Didn’t the Socialist Party evolve from Militant? Is it really wise to be siding with such people?

“I think it’s a moot point. An incoming Conservative government will, in all probability, push through party funding reforms that sever Labour from its Union funds anyway.”

This strikes me as a very unTory thing to do. In the same way as it should be up to private businesses to decide who they employ, enter into contracts with and give money to as well as the terms of these arrangements, Trade Unions, being private organisations, should have the same rights. That said if they have government privileges there’s a case for clipping their wings.

Jimmy – LOL. Good point.

Dan – like you much, dude, but too dismissive again, of me and of the membership.

You say:

“Your article does take a political side – it asks people to join a rally in support of members of the Socialist Party in favour of disaffiliation of Unison from the Labour Party and against the people in Unison who want to keep the link.”

Well. Perhaps. The rally has in fact been called as part of a Reclaim our Union initiative, not a Save a Handful of SP members’ meeting – I was advised of it by people who are not members of any fringe party. Quite a few of them are Labour party members, as it happens. They’re just concerned that people who want to debate union policy in the democratic surrounds of conference are being shut down. Are they no-hopers too?

But anyway – why willfully ignore the fact that there is a crises of democracy in Labour affiliated unions? How can we resuscitate union and Labour membership without an honest discussion? The membership wants a debate on affiliation – but alas, motions calling for that discussion have repeatedly been struck off conference schedules with in recent years. If you’re all for finding out what the average member thinks – and you’re sure the average member thinks that life’s been great under the Blair/Brownite administration – then why not join the call for that debate? Why refuse to acknowledge problems?

And what to say about branches that have been placed in unelected union administration? Those branch secretaries and officers were elected by their members. A lot of them are not members of political parties – they’re just good activists who reflect the concerns of their members and are thus repeatedly returned to local office. Is that democratic election just tough shit as far as you’re concerned?

I agree with you that things are going to be dreadful with the coming Tory administration. That’s all the more reason to sk why the Unison hierarchy has chosen this moment to attack some of its best grassroots organisers and activists. Those are the people who do the recruiting. Those are the people who inspire the membership. Take Kas, at Greenwich. Sure, he’s an SP member. He also managed to win a great single status deal for people on really low wages. They have turned out to rallies in support of him and I know this because I’ve talked to them. Are you just thumbing your nose at those workers? Why is Unison not capable of broad-church left politics?

I also want to clarify – are you saying that Unison members must be Labour party members only, and never comment on the link? Unison advertises the link on its own webpage as the means by which members may influence the party they fund. Is that just talk?

I like your list of proposed improvements to the working man’s lot. It’d be good to see at least one Warwick agreement point implemented before we launch your list, but it’s probably getting a little late in the day for that.

Look – you’re not actually someone I want to have a bloody war with, and neither is Paul as it happens. I think you’re both good activists, and that we’re all on the same page in some respects. We all believe in a Labour party. We just have different views round the definition of a Labour party, and labour representation. We have different views on how best to effect a Labour recovery.

People are being gagged at Unison, and that’s a concern. Just saying – ‘well, some of them are far left members and they’re just dopey feckers’ isn’t really enough. If they’re that inconsequential, why not let them debate their motion on affiliation at conference and watch them cringe as they’re laughed offstage by the whole of conference? What does Labour and Unison have to fear by allowing that?

Hi Kate,

The “Reclaim our union” initiative is the slogan of Unison Left, which are a political faction within Unison – http://unisonleft.wordpress.com/ It includes many people who I know and like, but it isn’t just a group who is “concerned that people who want to debate union policy in the democratic surrounds of conference are being shut down”, they are a political faction within the union (and nothing wrong with that).

I can’t see anything in what I’ve written which would lead you to conclude any of the following:

*that I think these activists are “no hopers” (I specifically said that they were committed and effective trade unionists)

*that I think the average trade union member thinks that life has been great under Blair and Brown

*that “democratic election is just tough shit as far as I am concerned”

*that I think that Unison members must be Labour members only, and never comment on the link

I can’t think of a single trade union where discussing whether or not to disaffiliate from the Labour Party, or indeed disaffiliating from the Labour Party, has led to an upsurge of union democracy or any actual gains for the union’s members. So I think it is an utter waste of time for the Left to put so much energy into trying to get this debated at conference.

Nor can I see how expelling effective grassroots organisers from the union will help, and from what I’ve seen of the case, I think the way that the expelled activists have been treated has been entirely out of order.

Instead, I’d prefer if the lefties and LabourLink people spent more time working together on the things which members care about and which they agree with each other on – there’s no shortage of these, after all!

“Look – you’re not actually someone I want to have a bloody war with, and neither is Paul as it happens.”

Far from having a war, you’ve not engaged at all with what I said.

Hey man,

First – Reclaim our Union may well be a slogan the United Left uses but as you point out – nobody listens to them. It’s a slogan or phrase that a lot of people use.

Also – key point (well, a minor key) – the Socialist Party isn’t part of the UL. They left in a shower of shit about four years ago if I remember. They may have rejoined but hell – I doubt it. So, the Reclaim our Union slogan probably isn’t their slogan. This meeting isn’t necessarily entirely their meeting. I’m going with activists who want to leave Unison and don’t belong to any party. Which leads me onto my next point – I don’t think many union members give a bugger for the SP, the UL, or even know who they are. What they do know is that they’re having trouble being heard by the party with which they’re supposed to have so much influence. Why the continued race to privatise? Why has the govt ignored conference votes to pull out of Iraq?

The point I’m making is that union members complain constantly that they are not heard. They get nervous when they hear that motions have been struck from conference agenda. The Unison hierarchy has played into the hands of far left dissenters by victimising these activists for speaking out about that. And where the union has put regional officers in local branches, they’ve disempowered members to an even greater extent. And another point that can’t be ignored – say what you like about their politics, but these victimised activists tend to be very popular on the ground because they’re good at the job. I bet until recently nobody in the Greenwich membership was particularly aware that Kas was a SP member, or even knew what that was. They just knew him as the guy who advocated strongly for them until he got them their single status payments.

Re: the point about discussion on disafiliation not getting unions anywhere – my understanding is that the RMT has recruited well since it left Labour. Been a couple of years since I looked at the numbers, but I’m pretty sure that’s right. And didn’t the PCS go through some sort of socialist rebirth recently? For sure, plenty of PCS activists have turned up to these Unison crisis meetings, and talked about the bad old days of vicitimising in their union. My own views on breaking the link are mixed. I don’t particularly think the future of the left lies with the SP. Why would I think that? I believe much more in a party that represents labour – thus the title of this piece. What I do think is that Unison has gone after dissenters too hard, and that it has made a mistake doing that if its aim was to keep the far left and its messages out of public view.

I’d again make the point that if these small left groups in Unison aren’t a threat – why not have the debate about union funding and Labour’s handling of Warwick commitments and so on, and then just get on with it? We’re all agreed that left and Labour have plenty of work to do – but I’d argue that this threatening environment ain’t the place to do it.

Nothing personal meant in what I’m saying here – it’s just disingenuous to try and write these ructions off as mere fringe party politics. Bottom line – people feel the party has not done as it should to back working people. You know that and I knkow that. We need to confront that on the left, rather than sneer at it, just because from time to time the message comes from the mouth of Glenn Kelly, etc.

Hi Kate,

As ever – I don’t think we disagree much on the substantive here – will be interested to hear how the meeting goes

Paul,

I fear our interface is on the rocks, or nearing them. We need to right our listing craft. Let’s get it out there, my man – it’s really not my fault that Hazel was pissed with Rosie. It’s not your fault, either. Be that as it may, I get the feeling that ever since Rosie read Hazel’s remarks, she’s been after you with a heated prong.

We might need to put that one behind us, or at least shake on something to go forwards.

I will engage with your point upon my return home. Haven’t had time to read your TCF post, but I will certainly get to it.

On the bright side, there may be nobody at tomorrow’s meeting, at which point you and Dan could replace my entry on the About Us page with a pic of a horses’ arse.

Got to love me for trying, though.

All the best,

Kate

Kate

You are barking up the wrong tree. There are no such things happening round my way or in my head.

All I was doing was trying to get you to read the TCF article, which was aimed fair and square at what I think Unison should do/the LRc (of which John McDonnell is chair) and for you to have them in your mind before you went to the rally tonight.

‘Tis all, you loon.

Interesting debate and thanks to Don and Kate for keeping it so civilised.

I can’t actually see how disaffiliating from the Labour party is going to do anything at all to help low paid public sector workers, but I guess I understand the frustration out there.

…and the loon is home now, and has read your TFC piece.

First comment – you should post an edited version on this site. It’s long past time that someone made a sensible comment about the ghostspaces that are CLPs at the moment, and about changing brand Labour, just to get a hearing with people who will forever associate the party with Brown and Blair.

I think the idea of associating union branches with CLPs is inspired. Can’t see anyone who is presently a significant personage in the PLP going for it – but hey. They won’t be with us much longer. It is true that CLPs are shells, as are many union branches in the current environment, but this could be just the sort of local-organisation concept that revitalises both. At the very least, it’s the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that the party needs to start revitalising union and Labour politics. It’s a big local idea.

Where are you taking it next?

Kate

Have blogged about it.