The minatrets and dome of imposing structures function no differently than British colonial statements during the days of Empire.

I’m not sure that’s a valid parallel – the people of whichever country was under occupation, after all, were subordinate to the British. We don’t have to obey the Muslims of this country, so their Mosques, I think, can hardly function as a reminder of the power that they wield.

What is it about Mosques that makes them imperialistic? If one applies the term to anything that’s been introduced to a culture, the same would be true of a Synagogue or Gurdwara, or of churches in countries without Christian heritage.

No i didn’t mean 50% of Muslims are foccused on the butchering of non-believers
I meant to say that from that which I understand 50% of the Koran,hadiths ect .if we discount the earlíer abrogated benign edicts,are concerned primarily with how,Islam,should expand,conquer,subjugate,rule,dominate,disenfranchise and punish the transgressions of non-belivers.

Ah – sorry for the misunderstanding. Do you have any links/references?

The last being the banning of the Cruifix from Italian state schools ,promoted by ´the complaint of one offended individual to the European Council.

You said “here“, which I took to mean ‘in Britain’. Anyway, I’m not sure how representative that is (the hijab, after all, is banned in French schools, while I’m not sure that Italians are deserting Christianity quite yet – you can, after all, be arrested for insulting the pope).

Yes I do have that habit of jumping the gun and pre-empting an argument before its even put forward.

No worries.

But – Larry – imagine this. You are in a workplace, a unionised workplace, perhaps in the public sector. Mushtaq has been threatened with disciplinary action for non-attendance. He says that the way his boss, Jane, dresses at work is scandalous and a threat to his honour as a Muslim male. He will return when she ceases to offend him. The Union’s Islamic Group’s local branch has got up a petition in his support and is organising a march on the union meeting you are currently driving towards… Jane, of course, has the support of the Union’s Women’s Group who are already picketing the meeting…

Whether you imagine yourself as a worker or a boss in that scenario, my sense is that you’ll come down on Jane’s side. And thereby instil fear in Mushtaq and others.

So when you say we have to do these things in order to preserve our ‘culture’, I just don’t know what you’re talking about.

Your argument is the same as every fascist’s in history. We are all in imminent danger because of [currently hated minority group]! They are poisoning our country! They do not follow our ways! They rape our women! They kill our men! We must fight back, before it is too late!

And how must we fight back? By installing some maniac as leader of a militaristic state, with terrifying powers to make people’s lives hell. Everyone must obey, dissent is outlawed, otherwise you are an enemy of ‘our culture’ and will be treated without mercy.

Whatever, Journeyman. I don’t deny that Islamic fundamentalism is a problem. But your proposed solutions are a thousand times worse, and just as inimical to ‘our culture’.

” Do you really believe each mosque is constructed for the purpose of imposing power”

Yes , Muslim lobby groups are insistant and relentless in achieveing more than just spaces which fullfil the ´functions of congregation and prayer.
The minatrets and dome of imposing structures function no differently than British colonial statements during the days of Empire.
The symbolism is undeniably important.
The Romans left there statements of cultural supreamacy all over Europe and the Middle East.’
The west uses among other things literature,pop culture and scientific superiority.
It would be extremely naive not to attibute such an ambitious,agressive cult as reactivated Islam,and its knew found wealth to such puposeful designs.
Every time some university installs, Muslim compliant,prayer rooms foot baths and such concessions is a form of apartheid supreamacist statement.
There is disbelief and amazment when we conceed. We have become well trained.
It just one more little unimportant aspect isn’t it.But put all of them together and eventually we have a subliminal message.of privileged respect,acknowledgement and comprimise.

No i didn’t mean 50% of Muslims are foccused on the butchering of non-believers
I meant to say that from that which I understand 50% of the Koran,hadiths ect .if we discount the earlíer abrogated benign edicts,are concerned primarily with how,Islam,should expand,conquer,subjugate,rule,dominate,disenfranchise and punish the transgressions of non-belivers.
Others say only 40%. of the passages are devoted to this theam.

The E.U.only just recently exhibited just one more example among hundreds of attempts to eliminate Christian religious symbols from the public space, in the most apologetic concern of creating offence of others sensibilties.The last being the banning of the Cruifix from Italian state schools ,promoted by ´the complaint of one offended individual to the European Council.

I can feel i’m getting tired and blown out now. Yes I do have that habit of jumping the gun and pre-empting an argument before its even put forward.
But anyway thanks for the debate old chap.
I’ll drop in tommorow to answer any post here.
Best Regards
journeyman.

Hallo again.Its been a while.
Thats terrible news about your friends.You say that this is the second time they have been attacked.I can imagine under those circumstances why they had to move to another town.
There are similar events happening with monotonous regularity in my area.
I’m hoping I can afford to move out within the near future.Its becoming a dire necessity.
And keep yourself safe.
My thoughts go with you.

Best Regards
journeyman.

A few points…

[A Mosque] is an architecural statement of territitorial cultural imperialism and power,Islam is 10% ,ceromony and 50% on what to eventually do with Kaffirs like Ben-Six.

I’m sorry – I can’t take this seriously. Nor, as you’ve somehow failed to support your own assertion, do I have to. Do you really believe that each Mosque is constructed for the purpose of imposing power? If so, why? Do you really believe that 50% of all Islam, which, as you’ve failed to discriminate, I assume you take to be true for all Muslims, is focussed on the butchering of non-believers? If so, back up your statement.

Your ostentatious concern for the “Muslim communities” you brought up in comment 39 ain’t holding up.

We ourselves suppress Christianity and its symbols here…

Erm – how? Churches are still built, and, indeed, often garner state subsidies. Bishops still sit in the House of Lords, with the opportunity, based solely upon their position in the church, to influence national policy. Yep – seems to me that Christianity – in general terms, ‘o course – doesn’t face persecution; it fact, in some ways it’s been granted privilege.

…in Egypt and the Middle East ,Coptic and other Christians are being hounded like untermensch.and many times killed…

I’m aware of that, and think that it’s utterly, and, for me, almost unimaginably foul. I’d prefer to live in a country where peaceable individuals aren’t faced with persecution on the basis of belief.

Yes ,several European goverments ,including the British have had that scheme going for years.

But not – as far as I’m aware – targeted en masse at a particular demographic.

On the “contract“, you seem to have – partly – missed my point. Wilders targeted it at “non-Western minorities“, and, I don’t think unfairly, I object to silly supremacist implications of that. There are many ways of life bound up within the clumsily-signified “West”, and many ways of life within the rarely termed “everywhere else“. “Othering” – which, I know, is an overused word, but please bear with me – everything beyond his EuroUSutopia isn’t just irrational, it’s not a little bigoted.

Speaking of “missing the point”, despite your heavy-handed attempts to caricature my views on Islam and immigration, I haven’t – as far as I know – actually given my views on anything other than the merits of generalised discrimination against the Muslim demographic. You can keep pummelling strawmen if you like, but, unless it releases frustration, it isn’t achieving anything.

To be more explicit , it would have more precise if i had said:
The pandering to the continuing failed policies of inter-faith ,outreach,dialogue and dialogue and more dialogue, became exasperatingly and blatantly clear in the end–even to your Dutch,culturally relative compatriots,that it was just not working.
And born out of this and the death of Van Gogh together with endless other evidence of incremental “death of a thousand cuts” ideological warfare of Islamo fascism against Dutch society …….came a natural and expected healthy sane reaction.

Whích…and this cannot be under emphaised….identified the souce from which this insidious threat came.And as all other possible souces had been endlessy explored and investigated—-and finally rejected—–the source being finally identified—–to the horror of all self-respecting “anti-racists” campus fantastists—-was ISLAM.
And that for you is what sticks in your gullet.The unmentionable,the blasphemous and the unforgivable has been verbalized.
Well ,Islam approves your compliance.
But the few brave heroic apostátes and Wilders…who risk their lives from dawn to dusk..despise your over indulged ignorance.

Second time in 10 months.

Their attackers were also Afghanis. The reason: because they have given up their Islamic faith: and in mainstream Islam, that deserves the death penalty.

Could we please all drop the cheap name calling of ‘fascist’ and ‘racist’ – and be brave enough to look at the evidence of what is actually happening.

My friends have had to be taken to another town.
This is England this week – don’t we care about freedom of thought and hence of religion anymore?

” Thats why he wants to stop the building of new mosques,encourage voluntary repatriation and have every member of a non-western minority sign a legally binding contract of assimilation”

Ok.well,lets look at this.
I think we have to take a few other apects into consideration here.Life is not always like Goldie Locks and Three Bears and “this bowl of porridge was neither too hot ,too cold,but just right.
It doesn’t always happen.Where exactly do people get ´this idea in their heads that western societiés are onmipotent miracle machines,witht the perfect solution to every problem that will break no eggs in the processs and offend no one.
I mean –what is the alternative to a ban on the building of new mosques.Well,it can only be to allow the continuation of the buliding of mosques.
And what is a mosque? Just the Islamic equivalent of a church .in your mind perhaps,but not in the mind off the people who build them and preach in them.
It is an architecural statement of territitorial cultural imperialism and power,Islam is 10% ,ceromony and 50% on what to eventually do with Kaffirs like Ben-Six.
If we allow it ,we then validate a political cult which percieves our or any other “cult”as the “other”and ultimately illigitimate.
Its insane to say Oh well,we had our cultural imperialism,can’t we give them a turn just to be fair.
They think we are mad and can’t believe their luck. Allah works in mysterious ways–what.
We ourselves suppress Christianity and its symbols here,and in Egypt and the Middle East ,Coptic and other Christians are being hounded like untermensch.and many times killed..
Voluntary repatriation
Yes ,several European goverments ,including the British have had that scheme going for years.A luxury not afforded to Europeans who would like to move country.
If these goverments had the decency to up-the repatriation support from a pitance to 50,000 quid a time.Every body would be happy.And would you deny them the choice.`?

A legally binding contract of assimilation.
I’m not suprised,think about it.´What hypocrisy one moment the “multicultural camp ” spends years blaming our society for not spending enough effort to “Integrate them”and the when somebody gets enough gumption to íntroduce a “constitutional agreement” between immigrant and state that the indigenous majority culture norms and values take presidence over all other attempts to over -rule or undermine it—-they kickm up a stink as it were “Krystal ´Nacht “all over again.
Doing nothing for lack of ideas ,is some times the worst option.
We do not have unlimited variation of possible options and we cannot stay on the same path we are on.
We have miserable options,but ever more limited and miserable and drastic as each day goes by.

Aw poor lickle Geert. It’s not his fault he’s a fascist – all those nasty mean liberals made him one.

To go into detail: This statistic concerns mostly Moroccan youth in particular between the ages of 14 to 24,
Two-thirds of extreme violent crime within this age group originátes from the Muslim community.The Muslim community being only 6% of the population,means we have 1/16th of the population responsible for 2/3 rds or twice as much of this type of crime.
Thereby 16×2= 32 times. Means that there it is 32 less likely for a indigenous Dutch person within this age group to commit the same type of crime.
This statistic would perhaps be less extreme if the Dutch were not quiet so docile and non-violent as they are in comparison to for example the indigenous British.
This high level of violence originating from this particular source is as much a problem for the local Muslim community as the Dutch.
As to where the statistic is obtained from–it was if my memory serves we well obtained from one of the few publications that dare to deal with such matters “Europe News”.
I did file it for future refference,but have suffered a total computer crash since,and lost all data..
I have seen reports that it is 50 times more likely to be mugged by a Somali in Finland than a native Finn.
It does not appear unusual in North Western Europe for the criminal statistics of some immigrant groups to be noticabley highér than the indigenous population.
Obviously the amount of violence in the culture in the country the immigrant originates
from and the perhaps the type of measures taken to deal with are all factors.
Sorry I can’t supply more information.

…it is not unknown for Muslim communities themselves to enquire from the local law enforcement authorities as to why they don’t deport some of these “yooves”and sedition mongering Imams,as by just making an example of a few would soon dampen the enthusiasm these thugs have for creating mayhem.

Except that Wilders doesn’t advocate “making an example of a few“, he’s “grossly illiberal” towards Muslims as a whole. That’s why he wants to “stop the building of new Mosques“, “encourage voluntary repatriation” and “have every member of a non-Western minority sign a legally binding contract of assimilation“.

[source]

Me, I don’t think that would isolate fanatics, I think it’d bond them with more amiable sorts.

“grossly illiberal”

Grossly illiberal towards “gross illiberalism”.

The percentage of violent crime such as rape,murder ect. in the Netherlands is 32 times higher than the indigenous national average.
In the Netherlands,Denmark and Sweden,it is not unknown for Muslim communities themselves to enquire from the local law enforcement authorities as to why they don’t deport some of these “yooves”and sedition mongering Imams,as by just making an example of a few would soon dampen the enthusiasm these thugs have for creating mayhem.
If you would prefer that Wilders reigned in and tempered his speech a bit more,I am without doubt you would if you had the power.continue heaving in on that leash.a little bit more and a little bit more,until eventually there would be no discernable difference between yourself and Wilders.
Thats fine and dandy but Wilders is not engaging in some comment box thought experiment.
Perhaps his “extreme ” attitude is a natural reaction to years and years of witnessing namby-bamby do-nothing “extemism” at the other end of the spectrum.And some times,human nature being what is,extreme threats demand extreme solutions because idoits and corporate greed mercenaries, have left you facing “miserable options”.

Sorry Nick.At a closer glance at your ” but I don’t see where your double standard lies”
You are most probably stating that you do not believe Wilders is practicing a double standard. I which case you agree with me.
Or not.?????

“but i don’t see where the logic of the double-standard lies”

I’m a bit confused here Nick because you seem to have explained it admirabley yourself.

Of course when something is dressed up in the respectabilty of a “religious freedom” we are frozen in suspension like a deer caught in the beam of a cars headlights.
Although we make a special exception in the case of Christianity for the last three hundred years and were must less concerned about ” unfairly demonizing a whole religion” for some mysterious reason.
With reminds me of another analogy which has frozen our pioneering intelligencia in the glow off the headlights.
Imagíne you are in WW2 and in the trenches.Looking at the your German enemy on the other side. Do you speculate about which Germans might be decent chaps who night not believe in all that Mein Kampf stuff. Will you be reluctant to shoot any German unless you can verify exactly which are a threat and which not.
Unless the opposing ideology is suffering from the same qualms of conscience to the same degree,them one might be inviting distaster.
It really is no way to win a war. Which begs the question of course “is it a war”.
I am not reffering with these analogies to literal warfare,I should explain to those off sensitive constitution.

(For the record I also oppose the banning of Mein Kampf. But that’s an unhelpful red herring as far as this discussion goes.)

“Do you assume every Dutch Muslim is simply there to perpetuate a faith driven ideology`? Are they not allowed agency? Same as your average Dutchman.

Well first of all I would like to take issue with your use of the word “every”.
I know that if I answered ” yes I believe (every) Muslim………..ect ect.
I am pretty sure you would fall of your chair in suprise.
Som lets counter your “every” with “one too many”. And I say this because,if there is one thing that eventually manages to attract attention,it is the efforts,.attitudes,actions and of a particular tribal culture…..once too often…..by one too many….in one too many different locations …..over a given space of time……to allow discriminatory judgement and the instinct for self-preservation to be dispensed with.

No doubt you have seen some film were the two gun-toating villains ´come to some agreement when finding themselves in a “mexican stand off” to both put their guns down very slowly at the same time,thereby avoiding a gun-fight.
Well I.m afraid we have a nasty habit of putting our gun down first.In other words
“Unilatteral cultural disarmament”

We are doing the conceeding,adapting,conforming,tolerating and placating and for the wrong reasons.In order to avoid conflict or condemnation as racists,or accused of demonising an entire religion.
They end up with nothing to assimilate or intergrate with.,because we are afraid to assert our own values firmly-
Our tribal indentity is weak,splintered and scizophrenically in identity crisis of civilizational guilt,shame and in paralysis——in chains to a the religious sustitute for Christianitys suffering of Christ on the Cross—-with “The Holocaust” as the replacement for “original sin” for which all generations of white people must atone for.
Not that I wish to diminish its horrific legacy and the lessons to be learned from it.
I mean to say that no other sane culture I can think of would willingly invite such possible future potential for tribal fragmentation and conflict.
The simplest analogy is to invite you with the power of some “Magic Wand” to return in some time machine to the year 1950 and say “now here we are with a chance to start afresh and do things differently”. Well,would you ? Knowing that which we know now.
And that would answer the question. Has it been a blessing or a curse:?
And would we welcome more of the same.Doubled,trebled.quadrupled?
And if your answer is “yes give me more” then I would ask ” what expense has this nobel sentiment cost you personally.”
I mean…..its easy to be free with other peoples fortunes.

Not that I agree with the underlying assumption of the argument, but I don’t see where the logical double-standard lies.

Hmm…

Do you assume every Dutch Muslim is simply there to perpetrate a faith driven ideology? Are they not allowed agency? Same as your average Dutchman?

Geert Wilders has stated that it is hypocrisy to ban the fascistic literature of Mein Kampf and not the even more fascistic text of the Koran which is not denounced by the most officially sanctioned scholars of Islamic jurisprudence .
According to demographic predictions,the three main commercial and cultural centres of the Netherlands–Amsterdam,Rotterdam and Den Haag risk becoming majority Sharia-compliant enclaves at some time in the future if present trends continue.
This is because although at present there are only 1 million Muslims out of a total population of 16 ,million—–the vast majority of that 1 million reside in the three major cities.
330.000 in each city,becoming evetually,600,000 in each city,will in effect create a democracy which has by its own natured,sanctioned a Sharia sympathetic voter majority MUslim lobby which will gain enough political power to prevent any attempt to deal with levels of immigration and infact will vote to increase it .
This is a runaway snowball effect which becomes irreversible.At present modern technology of mobile phones,satellite dishes and cheap flights enables Muslim culture to maintain miny-states that are modelled on their home culture.
We have a bit of a dilemma with those who poor scorn on this scenerio.
If the sceptics who portray Wilders and others as “racist “alarmists are right in that there is no existential threat to the Netherlands,even the alarmists might be relieved.
However ,if the gamble that the muticultural Left doesn’t pay off–by the time one can provide indísputable evidence that a culture is heading towards catastrophic balkanisation—-it will be too late by that time to do anything about it.
And there is the rub.
A most helpful assistance to clarity of mind would be to think of one self as a gambler and which “stakes” at which “odds ” one is willing to put on the table.
if you are going to “hope”—”chance” ,what are the stakes`? The future of your nation,your culture and stablity.?
And what are the odds ? 10%, 50%
If the odds were 90% in my favour,would I bet everything,the blood sweat and tears of previous generations on it. Leaving future generations to pay the price and curse us in our graves.?
Of course there is one argument I cannot win,and that is against those who believe that even if their statistical demographic predictions are wrong “well who the fuck gives a damn anyway,because the fear is based on racism”.
And if you could somehow prove that culture is also ethnicity dependant,inparticular when the differing immigrant ethnicity also has a vastly different shared norms and values
It would still not be accepted because even if your multicultural opponent accepted this,he would once again revert to claiming the statistics ones concerns were based on are flawed.
And there you have it.A never ending circular argument.Totally devoid of the virtue of prudence.And more to insatiate hedonistic idealism.